Column Kirkby Stadium: An Apology Andrew Steen 16/11/2007 76comments | Jump to last I have to apologise to all Evertonians as I was a Yes voter. I have just visited the Destination Kirkby site (initially went by accident to a Hoover site as I missed out the last "k" in Kirkby) and viewed the CGI. I am amazed that the club I love and cherish could treat its fans with such utter contempt. I was mis-sold with flashy night-time images and the "we are doomed if we don't do this" approach. Yes, I knew it would be on a retail park but I thought we would use our imagination. I envisaged an approach a la Wembley, thousands of people walking up a raised walkway towards the "People's Club" stadium. Now I have to walk past Tesco! What is going on? Article continues below video content I live about a mile away from the Reebok Stadium and it appears that Everton are going to ignore all the mistakes that Bolton Wanderers have made. 1) Football stadia and shops do not mix well! If you try and park at the Reebok on a matchday you are haranged / fined / clamped by the Gestapo! The shops hate football fans, we clog the car parks and scare off the shoppers. Go to the Reebok on a matchday and, guess what, no queues at Tesco/Asda, etc. I went to Tesco to buy an outdoor table and chairs set. As I was trying to cram it into the boot the final whistle blew at a Bolton vs Leeds game and I was faced with the prospect of meeting 10,000 Leeds fans who had just been relegated. (Amazing how quickly I packed the set in my boot!) 2) Traffic The Reebok is a new development and next to a bloody motorway. It takes two hours to get out of the stadium! Why? Because shoppers also want to exit the development at 5pm! I'm fed up. Really fed up. Yesterday I drove up the M6 and saw the Ricoh Arena... it looks bloody similar to our People's Club arena! Except that they found the money to fill the corners in! I can't accept this shite that we are being offered. I work in financial services. In my previous employment with NatWest bank I met with Everton regarding corporate hospitality and was amazed at how rubbish it is. It seriously is rubbish. The last game, I was in the Joe Mercer Lounge and was having a conversation with a guy from the RBS. An Everton waitress elbowed me out of the way to serve my "chicken and Chips". They even offered me seconds! Bolton FC (who are in a much better business location than the new Kirby arena) couldn't fill many of their corporate lounges. They have now turned one of the stand's boxes into an office and flogged it to Reebok for a headquarters. How can Everton hope to fill all the boxes in Kirkby? Everton is not a glamorous club, it is not a corporate club because it does not employ staff capable of employing corporate clients. I love Everton but when I put an event on I use Old Trafford. The food they serve is cooked by world-class chefs as opposed to Keith Wyness' granny who cooks at Goodison. Everton is a People's Club, it is a club surrounded by traditional British houses, not flashy glass flats with no soul. Yes it is grotty around Goodison but it bloody well has character and for that I love it! Anyway, to sum up, I would like to offer you all an apology for my Yes vote. I accept that myself and the other Yes voters have wasted club money in the "due diligence" they are currently doing. As a consequence I propose that all Yes voters are offered the opportunity to change their vote to a No vote subject to a payment of £200 towards club costs! I await your thoughts... Reader Comments Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Barry Kingham 1 Posted 16/11/2007 at 23:21:59 Report abuse Andrew, where I share your sentiments about Kirkby at the beginning of your article, I totally disagree that more corporate boxes are only for ’glamorous’ clubs. Bolton does not even begin to compare with Everton (as you’ve rightly pointed out) in terms of fanbase, and those that are willing to purchase corporate space. Sunderland, Newcastle, Tottenham, Villa etc all sell out their corporate spaces - are they glam? I agree that EFC’s current corporate set-up is inadequate, that’s exactly why we need to expand and improve elsewhere. Where I agree with you, it shouldn’t be in a retail park in Kirkby. Kev Wainwright 2 Posted 16/11/2007 at 23:42:45 Report abuse My thoughts are that you are a liar!!Just be honest rather than writing this rather poor attempt to hoodwink people. If you are not a liar than you are I fool if you really think what you wrote here and voted yes.You do yourself and your lost cause no good, its a bit like being stupid enough to show a video of Everton fans fighting...oh you’ve already done that one. Brian Wolf 3 Posted 16/11/2007 at 23:53:38 Report abuse Oh dear.The old I used to be a Yes voter but now that everyone is calling me names I’ve changed my mind and don’t want anything to do with Kirkby.Stick to your guns you pussy, you voted Yes so deal with it, too late to backtrack now, you are now officially in limbo, Yes voters hate you for backtracking, No voters hate you for voting Yes in the first place. Neil Pearse 4 Posted 16/11/2007 at 23:58:13 Report abuse Agree with Brian - sorry Andrew, but if this is genuine it just makes you sound foolish. Shock! Horror! The Kirkby site is a retail park! (If it is not genuine, and part of a new No campaign of ’I was a Yes voter but now I have seen the light’ - then you should be ashamed of yourself.)I voted Yes and, while I am not thrilled by the latest Kirkby video, I would consider myself a bit of an idiot if I was so shocked. And I would still vote Yes now, for the reasons I have repeatedly given on this site (we absolutely have to move to survive, and, given our financial situation, this is a good deal and, like it or not, the best we can afford).The Yes voters I know voted Yes for similar reasons to me. Not because they were hoodwinked into thinking that Kirkby was going to be the New Wembley. mickmac 5 Posted 17/11/2007 at 00:23:12 Report abuse Neil I fully spport your stance. We are YES voters and I would vote yes again if it came out. I have never heard anyone come out with a credible alternative, with a deliverable plan for our great club. What I have seen is a lot of Fillibusting and huffing but not one, no not one alternative where someone has said. This is how it will be paid for. Its Kirkby Way or no way john sreet 6 Posted 17/11/2007 at 01:10:49 Report abuse Why oh why, does this site allow this sort of negativity.............insults flying, evertonians bashing evertonians.........this site is getting worse, it was just the team we used to harangue, now it’s paisring articles that divideNo don’t want to go to KirbyYes if that’s where we goIt’s what happens on the pitch that matters Not the fancy flashing lights etc Gerard Madden 7 Posted 17/11/2007 at 01:18:23 Report abuse John Sreet you are so right - 99% of blues out there are only interested in matters ON THE PITCH, I simply don’t come across any blues out there in the real world whether within my family, my relatives, my friends down the pub or in work who obsess about boardroom matters or the new stadium, come on here though and a small vociferous minority obsess about nowt else - dragging people like me into their debates..... It’s quite funny actually when you compare the ’real world’ with the ’cyber world’. Andrew Steen 8 Posted 17/11/2007 at 01:22:06 Report abuse GuysThankyou for you comments and there are a few points i would like to return on1) I am not a liar. These are my honest thoughts2) This is my first post on toffee web and i have no political motivation3) re Showing video of everton fans fighting - I dont understand this comment? I have no idea what you mean, what fighting? What video?4) The above article was straight from my heart. I can honestly tell you that i did vote yes and feel cheated as the new video differs from the "look and feel" of the initial proposal. The article was not pre written or proof read and was frankly borne out of frustration5) I am horrified to think that some people thought i was bashing evertonians. At no time during this article did i or would i attempt to bash fellow evertonians. If i have come accross as doing so then please accept my apologises.6) I accept that this is going to happen and that the deal is financially an excellent offer. What i would like to see is some imagination and thought re the stadium design and look and feel. Why cant we have a "people village" next to the stadium where fans can mingle pre and post game in a party style atmosphereThese are just my thoughts and frustrations. RegardsAndrew john sreet 9 Posted 17/11/2007 at 01:54:38 Report abuse Andrew, I did not think you were bashing anyone, but i WAS appalled at the respose to your article. Thought it was honestly written and from the heart..........WE ALL LOVE EVERTON, just stop the mudslinging.........We’re allowed to be wrongwe’re allowed to have an opinionwe’re allowed to be passionateDon’t really understand why we do this to ourselves john sreet 10 Posted 17/11/2007 at 02:07:11 Report abuse While I’m on my soapbox, does anyone out there really want something like two Yankee "I’m really in it for the supporters.......oh yeah" investors in our club, building a stadium that takes us $1,000,000,000 in debt.......not me, please God Tescos anytime!!!!!!!!!!!! Arthur jones 11 Posted 17/11/2007 at 06:17:01 Report abuse The one piece of the article that has me really worried is the comments re the traffic . The attendances in kirkby are likely to be much higher than at the reebok so traffic problems are going to be much greater . On Matchdays at Goodison the traffic along the East Lancs road is pretty congested and along Valley road through longmoor lane , Walton Vale , and rice lane is really heavy , When all this is concentrated in less than one square mile of kirkby together with the tesco and retail park shopping ?? Problems will occur ! and if there’s a major incident needing the quick response of the emergency services and Valley road - Longmoor lane is blocked , which is the main route to Fazakerley hospital , this is dangerous . Who’s decision is it to ensure that the emergency services can cope ? Or is that just being brushed under the carpet until a disaster happens ie Bradford , Hillsborough ??? Neil Pearse 12 Posted 17/11/2007 at 07:19:03 Report abuse Andrew, points taken that his is genuine. I am still surprised though that you think the ’look and feel’ is very different from what was earlier presented. Seems fairly similar to me.And Arthur, for God’s sake get a grip man! Be against Kirkby, but get a grip on the alarmism. In this day and age we can be pretty sure that a 50,000 stadium is not going to get built without passing reasonably strict emergency rules. One thing we can be absolutely sure about it: the new build on the retail park will be a lot safer than our current place (love it as we all do). Lyndon Lloyd Editorial Team 13 Posted 17/11/2007 at 07:24:09 Report abuse Andrew Steen: "3) re Showing video of everton fans fighting - I dont understand this comment? I have no idea what you mean, what fighting? What video?"He?s referring to plans by Alfie Hincks, former head of KEIOC, to show a video of football hooligans to Kirkby residents back when the plans for the town center were first unveiled.A Kirkby resident himself, he was, apparently, operating on his own and not officially under the KEIOC banner and didn?t, if I recall correctly, ever actually show the video in question. He offered to resign when it became common knowledge but KEIOC declined to take him up on it.Gerard "Blue Hat" Madden: "99% of blues out there are only interested in matters ON THE PITCH, I simply don?t come across any blues out there... who obsess about boardroom matters or the new stadium"Good thing someone does, though, eh, Gerard? After all, if no one had been obsessing about what Johnson was up to with his plans to move the club a decade ago, where do you think we?d be now?And if no one had given a toss about how things off the pitch were affecting matters on it, how do you explain the thousands of us who remained on the Goodison Park pitch after the second great escape in 1998 chanting for PJ?s head?Carry on in your blissful acceptance that the good ship Everton is in perfectly safe hands if you like, but your constant sniping at those who don't share your blind optimism does neither you nor your fellow Evertonians any good. Dave Wilson 14 Posted 17/11/2007 at 07:32:18 Report abuse Kev A liar ? easy lad, he change his mind that all, if you tried to get your car out of Bolton, Reading or Pride park - 2 hrs it took me a couple of weeks ago ON A SUNDAY ! - you’ll know his account is accurateMadden now speaking for 99% of the fans ? the other 1% must all post hereNeil fairly similar ? take another look mate Gavin Ramejkis 15 Posted 17/11/2007 at 08:12:20 Report abuse Regarding the traffic chaos leaving the new stadium, for those lucky enough of the expected 50 odd thousand fans to manage to get one of the 2000 car parking spaces unless you have a tardis you will be stood like a pillock waiting for public transport to take you back into Liverpool (where the stadium was and should remain) to locate your car and then in many cases sit in another huge queue waiting to get out of the car park and drive home. the whole match day experience ruined and in my case with two of my passengers disabled a very daunting and tiring day which no matter how loyal we have all been for years; one of my passengers is the pensioner on the last banner as you walk past the main stand towards the Park End, a point will come when they physically cant do it.Thanks Everton and thanks to short sighted money making over the welfare of the supporters who have invested in this club long before BK and KW but may be hounded out long before they have ruined it and cashed in. Neil Pearse 16 Posted 17/11/2007 at 08:33:40 Report abuse Gavin (and others who repeatedly make this charge), a simple question: where is your evidence that Kenwright or Wyness are ’cashing in’ on going to Kirkby? Put up or shut up. Alan Ryder 17 Posted 17/11/2007 at 08:44:44 Report abuse Fishy. If you live near the Reebok with all it’s associated problems and you knew all this in the first place why did you vote yes? You’ve seen a picture of a Supermarket with the stadium in the background and now you’ve changed your mind. Very Fishy or you can’t take too much information in all at once. ray 18 Posted 17/11/2007 at 08:33:10 Report abuse Just a quickie regarding the necessity for a "55k capacity stadium"....the last time we averaged above 40k was 1974-75. 33 years ago!! And then it was only 40,021. Prior to that it was 1970-71 when we were reigning champions, so we have to ask ourselves, why do we need a 55k arena? We haven’t managed an averag over 50,000 since 62-63,the first season the Shite were in the (old )First Division. Does anyone honestly think our gates will improve in a Retail Park? Nothing is worse than a half empty stadium, with your shouts echoing around vacant stands. Remember 83-84 with an average of 19,288.....Goodison was an awfull place to be. Antony Matthews 19 Posted 17/11/2007 at 09:14:13 Report abuse Ray, the reason why we want a 55,000 seater stadia, is simple. If we only have say a 40,000 do you think the Fa Cup semis will ever be played there or if the world cup ever come to town would the FA name a 40,000 stadia as a venue. We must have a capacity of at least 55,000 to compete against other stadiums. Maybe Argentina will one day play in the corned beef stadium in Stanley Park ! Gavin Ramejkis 20 Posted 17/11/2007 at 09:56:30 Report abuse Neil P how about you and you apologists show us why they won’t? Come on lad where’s your evidence? Stop talking shite yourself. Care to look at Wyness’ track record for making money then moving onto the next cash cow to milk it? Ever asked any Scottish football supporter who fucked the Sky deal for them? Let me tell you it was none other than Keith Wyness. How about that? Your turn evidence lad Neil Pearse 21 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:04:17 Report abuse Gavin, the onus actually is on you (and others) to put up. I know that Wyness is paid his Everton salary, and it is pretty much public knowledge what that is. You seem to believe that he is going to get some sort of personal financial pay off (which we don’t know about publicly) for the Kirkby deal (and presumably only the Kirkby deal).You are making the corruption charge, not me. It is obviously up to you to provide some evidence for it. Where is it? Neil Pearse 22 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:08:43 Report abuse And Gavin, your point about the Scottish Sky deal is obviously irrelevant unless you are claiming that you have evidence in this case too that Wyness received some kind of personal financial pay off. Are you? Otherwise you are just saying that Wyness negotiated a bad deal, which is not the same thing at all as saying he personally had his hand in the till. If you want to retract the corruption charge, and just say that Wyness is a poor negotiator then we have nothing much to argue about. Maybe he is. Dave 23 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:19:29 Report abuse NeilFingers in the till or total bufoonary ?h Hmmmmmmm Ajamu Mutumwa 24 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:13:36 Report abuse OK, here we go again. One of my favourite websites turning itself once again into "ToffeeNO" publishing every possible no angle that it can to turn a yes vote into a no vote. Goebbels will be pleased. Traffic problems, you show me one major stadia without major traffic problems at the end of a match. If we were in the loop, would we not be competing with shoppers? Or because we are in the loop traffiic problems would magically come to an end?One day this site will have a mature debate about the kirkby project. Unfortunatately, because there is a continued rearguard action from the so called "no" lobby, and the issue is too raw, and not complete, this won’t happen. Which is a real shame.Lyndon, is there nobody in "No to Kirkby" land who can write an article about how any of these other projects (I assume that they would all work) can be financed.Unless that question is answered people such as me will continue to say yes to Kirkby because it IS deliverable and won’t be swayed by "if only Everton did this" arguments. Anyone? Neil Pearse 25 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:45:37 Report abuse Dave, I tend to be more of with the cock-up than the conspiracy theories of history! Despite being cast as a Wyness apologist, I don’t rate him that highly (I just think it unlikely that he is personally corrupt).Actually one of the reasons why in the end I am pro-Kirkby is that Terry Leahy is involved. He obviously is acting more in Tesco’s interests than ours, but he is a highly competent businessman with huge influence and, despite what many posters say, there is no way under his watch that the Kirkby site won’t be delivered in business terms. magicjuan 26 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:48:00 Report abuse ajamu, there have been many plans drawn up re the funding. Project Jennifer (the loop) is a regeneration project involving er, Tesco!. The feasibility study underway by NWDA will show that urban renewal can take place and therefore qualify for UK & EU grants, the amount of debt saddled on the club would be similar to that of kirkby. On one of your points the onus seems to be on no voters to prove feasibility, yet of all the mish mash of figures, pictures and statements , I have yet to see a comprehensive feasibility report from EFC regarding kirkby, the projected debt figures change with each interview fat Keith gives.As for Mr Madden, his attitude carries an air of vested self interest, perhaps he has put a deposit down on one of the shops to be built in kirkby?The money is available, if it wasn’t then kirkby couldn’t go ahead, don’t spout Tesco funding because in their words it doesn’t exist, they are funding their own project not ours. The problem is there is no will coming from the club (nor has there ever been) to consider an alternative.Others, why the animosity towards other blues for holding a different opinion? The way the entire kirkby move has been handled doesn’t augur well for completion and thus far has only created a split amongst us. Not exactly professional or inspiring is it? Terry " marsbar " Maddock 27 Posted 17/11/2007 at 10:54:37 Report abuse Andrew "I’m fed up. Really fed up. Yesterday I drove up the M6 and saw the Ricoh Arena... it looks bloody similar to our People’s Club arena! Except that they found the money to fill the corners in!"You really must have been fed up..I normally read or watch the TV"Bolton FC (who are in a much better business location than the new Kirby arena) couldn’t fill many of their corporate lounges. They have now turned one of the stand’s boxes into an office and flogged it to Reebok for a headquarters. How can Everton hope to fill all the boxes in Kirkby?" Bolton are not ..and never will be in Evertons class in terms of fan base..its not even a valid comparrison.And on my last two trips to both the Reebok and the Riverside..our coach has been back on the motorway within 20 minutes tops..in fact you get held up by the police outside Boro while they seach you for longer than the journey takes..!! So overall..I dont believe you......It was the being fed up and going for a drive to coventry that did it. Ajamu Mutumwa 28 Posted 17/11/2007 at 11:12:49 Report abuse MagicJuanDon’t really want to get into a dialogue as this is not really the right place for it. But I feel that I should come back to some of your points. NWDA funding. My understanding is that this money is coming to an end. Comprehensive feasibility. Feasibility into what exactly? Won’t this be covered in the plannning submission for Kirkby?Onus on no campainers to prove feasibility. The club, in my view have made a monumental mistake in not looking at, and publishing its views on all the sites, then saying, "well, we’ve looked at everything, and this is what we are going with". Given that the club have (for whatever reason) dismissed the redevelopment option, and the loop, in my view it IS for the No campaign to either force Everton to reconsider (probably via a No to Kirkby campaign), or will need to show how the loop can be delivered, not in terms of design, but in terms of deliverable finance. Tesco funding. Tesco are part subsidising our part of the Kirkby project. I personally don’t like the closeness of Tesco’s the our stadia - Watford Shopping for example has a great shopping area, and the ground is situated such a distance away that you wouldn’t even realise that a football club existed in Watford (stop laughing at the back~ its a serious point). Finally, filing a stadia. Don’t care what anyone says, we’ll fill the stadia, BUTonly if we do well on the pitch. Moyes holds the key to how successful Kirkby will be in terms of attendance. Andy Mckenzie 29 Posted 17/11/2007 at 11:42:43 Report abuse so gerrard maddens back posting his usual tripe regarding the move, lyndon i find it funny that you’ve give gerrards bluekipper name.Gerrard lets get one thing straight here, YOU are in the minority here, the minority that think this stadium is any good, it seems to me that YOU are only coming on here and on kipper to cause petty arguments with your blind loyalty. Dave 30 Posted 17/11/2007 at 11:44:05 Report abuse AjamuYes traffic is inevitable, but it was claimed to have been one of the reasons we should move throughout this totally misleading presentation Alex May 31 Posted 17/11/2007 at 12:49:53 Report abuse I’m sorry to say Andrew that anyone that has viewed Everton under Kenwright, and more so since Wyness came on board, should’ve been able to have a fairly clar idea what was going on and was likely to happen. Even so, they have managed to appall me even more with each drip of information through out this.Now that you have contributed to easily the biggest mistake this club will ever make, perhaps you, and those without the guts to realise their mistake, can start to bombard the club with their opinions. The only possible chance of condemning this folly is for enough people to show them how disatrous this would be in terms of attendance.Gerard Madden (bluehat on other forae) - I can assure you that no-one drags you into debates and that no-one’s contribution is ever less welcome than yours is. magicjuan 32 Posted 17/11/2007 at 13:17:18 Report abuse Ajamu, feel you may have missed my point. Lyndon will, hopefully, back me up on what I know to be true. There is an ongoing dialogue between EFC and LCC, has been for months. Recent events have included Earle meeting with the government minister responsible for casions and such, fat Keith, Earle and LCC meeting bestway and HOK under the guidance of NWDA, the funding isn’t drying up, a re-application under regeneration would be allowed, as well as the possibility of EU funding (not objective 1 though). Certain allowances can be given regarding rents and rates, similar to KMBC.Though I cannot, for genuine reasons, declare specifics, part of KMBC reports to it’s communities are false, as are the highways reports. The kirkby plan is ambitious in that for it to work as promoted EVERY, and I mean, EVERY best case scenario has to be met, ie no objections, no protest, and certainly not the government calling in the plans as mooted by Howarth recently.The funding side is also wide open to interpretation, hence fat Keiths ambiguity, best case figures show a debt between 50-100 mill, worst case takes that closer to 200-250 mill. Despite what the pro campaigners have been lead to believe, the minutiae of the project show no connection from Tesco to the stadium, access roads etc yes, but no direct involvement. Reliance on full uptake of business space is paramount, and with new retail sites granted by LCC recently and soon to be , the option of a small town versus a regenerated ’world class city (LCC sic) the choice business wise is small.The ambition for the loop site is to connect to project jennifer and then to link that project with the north liverpool regeneration vis a vis the redshite, a plan that in itself would attrract funding, investors (housing and retail and business, kirkby has little housing involved), across Everton road/st Domingo and through Robson street to anfield.Not only is this a bigger project, hence the funding, but actually puts something back into the community, again Kirkby does little to that affect.Sorry if there were wires crossed, but the mandate from the vote is for further dialogue, no application has been put forward, and the exclusivity deal isn’t exactly being enforced. Kirkby isn’t, as some on here stamp their feet about, a ’done deal’.Onwards Evertonians seany blue 33 Posted 17/11/2007 at 13:37:05 Report abuse Here lads this is not being nasty as i treat all my evertonians as brothers,this whole stadium is a fucking disgrace!!! WE are selling our history our tradition as a big club to go and play our football in TESCOS CARPARK just to save a few quid!! IT STINKS!!Why cant we find investment????? average attendances 36,000, the most fans at the uefa cup games, great history, the best squad we have had in years, a brand new training complex,,,, SO why cant we find investment??? Is b.k really looking for investment??? somehow i dont think so.... and when we move into this fucking joke of a stadium and all are debts are cleared how fast will b.k find investment?? Very quickly. and of corse he will walk away with a very tidy PROFIT. FUCKING EVERTONIAN MY ASS!!! I can only ask the true everton fans to stand up now and be counted before we sell our history to a fucking food chain!! Colin Wordsworth 34 Posted 17/11/2007 at 15:13:47 Report abuse Having read the comments made, what do we as Evertonians actually want?...Yes Goodison is a fantastic old stadium....but that is what it is....do we want to be known as ’Ye Olde Everton’ and possibly die or do we want a vibrant new stadium with the potential to grow as a football club. We cannot afford to stay where we are, we cannot afford to redevelop, we cannot afford that awful stadium within that roundabout.So what do we do.... I for one think that the club has pulled a masterstroke on the back of Tesco...one of the worlds best companies.And yes I do realise that Tesco are going to make loads of money off our back, however look at the dark side....in interest payments alone they will be paying in excess of 30 milloin pounds a season for their new stadium, and they have to get in the Champions League just to survive.As Evertonians lets get real, on a footballing front the team is the best for seasons. I wil;l be unhappy to leave Goodison, but to continue to compete we need to move with the times.The Kirkby move is surely the only way forward. Let’s embrace the past but also look to the future positively. ray 35 Posted 17/11/2007 at 15:22:04 Report abuse Antony MatthewsAntony,I totally accept that the requirements for a semi-final venue would be a stadium with a 55k + capacity,however, given that the geographical locations of the two semi-finalists required a venue in the North West, do you think that the (Barwicks) FA would look further than Anfield or Old Trafford? Especially when they will hold upwards of 65000. Maybe if the RS played Utd they would deign to give us the match, but I wouldn’t like to hold my breath for THAT long. And in the mean time we would have at least 15000 empty seats each home match. martin berry 36 Posted 17/11/2007 at 15:40:42 Report abuse For those who haven’t seen the promotional video and want to make there own minds up here’s a link:www.destinationkirkby.com/cgis.asp?movie=everton Eldrick Dunn 37 Posted 17/11/2007 at 16:21:30 Report abuse Andrew, you are a retard. People like you should not be allowed to vote as you do not understand the implications of voting. Do not attempt to sell your pathetic sob story to evertonians or expect any sympathy as you are crying over spilt milk. Ian Mullin 38 Posted 17/11/2007 at 11:35:28 Report abuse I read with interest Andrew's article re changing his mind from a Yes voter for the new stadium. Andrew, I can only ask one question ? why? The reasons you give could easily have been worked out before you voted "Yes" as they were pretty much apparent then. The reason so many people did vote favourably is so the club can move forward. Isn't this what all Evertonians want? I've lived in Liverpool all my life, I have supported Everton all my life and I for one class Kirkby as Liverpool; it didn't even enter my head of the Knowsley issue until so many Evertonians started campaigning against the move. I more than most would love to stay at Goodison. I still get that tingly feeling everytime I walk into the stadium and see the hallowed turf. However, let's face it, the ground is draconian, there is no way it can be improved despite loads of people saying it can. If we want to make money and improve then we need to move. This is why you Andrew and thousands of others voted "Yes". As for the traffic situation, I am yet yo see a football club where you do not have to queue to get out. Do you think Liverpool's new ground will result in quick exits for everyone in cars? I don't think so. The ground will be in a retail park... so what? If Tesco are prepared to put money up then I fully expect them to utilise that money and build their Tesco right next to our new ground. I for one would not change my vote, I wish all Evertonians would get behind the club and move forward with this as quickly as possible. I love Everton and always will and if the played in a muddy field I would still watch them, but they are not and what they are proposing is futuristic and will enable the club to move to the next level. A "Yes" vote was and always will be the "correct" vote! Tom Hughes 39 Posted 17/11/2007 at 17:19:49 Report abuse Andrew,Well done for admitting you have been "had". I don’t blame anyone for falling for this hardsell to be honest. You were given one option or doom. Wyness told us there was no plan B, nothing else was deliverable, he posted Ballot papers with literature to that effect. He has staked his whole reputation on this being fact. Hence the no back down, hence no listening to anyone else, hence the incessant propoganda. So, can someone please now explain how he then revealed to the Shareholders association that this will in fact cost the club a minimum of £50m. This may be as much as £80m we are now hearing. What can that get us at a redeveloped Goodison? Could this be a downpayment for the Loop? Bestway said the club’s contribution would be the order of £60m I believe. If we can afford that money for Kirkby then plan B’s are by definition deliverable!!! How can that be? Proof of incompetence? Proof of lies? Proof of ulterior motives? tony gee 40 Posted 17/11/2007 at 17:32:24 Report abuse Ian Mullin...futuristic!!Next level..!!Are you for real???its a tin pot shed, built on the cheap in a toilet of a location...!!and by the way....We all love everton you fool... just because some of us don’t wanna move doesn’t make us any less blue...And if you would still "watch them in a muddy field", then why you arsed about moving then, huh...!!nil satis nisi optimum... learn its meaning! Lyndon Lloyd Editorial Team 41 Posted 17/11/2007 at 17:39:03 Report abuse Ajamu Mutumwa: "OK, here we go again. One of my favourite websites turning itself once again into "ToffeeNO" publishing every possible no angle that it can to turn a yes vote into a no vote. Goebbels will be pleased.Short of opening up our mailbox to you for a week, Ajuma, there?s nothing I can do to prove to you that what is published on this website in the form of MailBag and Fan Article submissions is representative of what we receive from our readers. I give you my word that it's true, though, for what it's worth to you.As I have to keep on saying, we do not suppress articles that we don?t agree with to suit any agenda or viewpoint. During the stadium debate proper over the summer we published a wealth of articles from both sides of the argument.Again, I challenge any pro-Kirkby Evertonian who believes we are biased in our handling of reader-submitted content to write an article explaining why you think the club?s proposal is so great and send it to us. magicjuan "Lyndon will, hopefully, back me up on what I know to be true. "I can confirm that that tallies with what I have heard, yes. There has been dialogue between the club, Bestway, LCC, NWDA and the Lord Mayor in recent weeks. david k 42 Posted 17/11/2007 at 18:06:15 Report abuse It takes a bit of courage to admit you were wrong. Hats off to you for that. I believe, silently maybe, that many (perhaps most?) Yes voters would agree with the sentiments you profess. It isn’t too late: get writing to the men who are punting the club out of Liverpool and tell your story of disillusionment. Karl Masters 43 Posted 17/11/2007 at 17:48:13 Report abuse Thank you Magicjuan for posting something concrete on here rather than just opinion. Makes a very interesting read. Kirkby is far from certain, especially as it seems to rely on Retail development, just as the eceonomy is slowing down and the hibby of ’shop till you drop’ is likely to be clipped. The Loop idea is more driven by a social project and is less reliant on Retail and thus some of the funding ( grants, council assisance etc ) is more guaranteed, especially as the linking projects of Project Jennifer and Anfield are already off the ground. One other thing. Wherever this stadium gets built, the towering, non conformist Loop one looks far better than the boring, enlarged, flat pack Ewood Park design which can hardly have stretched the imaginatiion of a team of people who usually design single storey supermarkets! Gavin Ramejkis 44 Posted 17/11/2007 at 18:42:20 Report abuse Neil take your nose out of KW’s backside and try this for size just one publicised example of your beloved whiter than white CEO’s previous business dealings. Apparently you didn’t read this when the link was published here months ago either - don’t drown on the sand around your headhttp://www.hcourt.gov.au/media/Zhu.pdfAnd the Scottish football deal was brought to a head by tinpot small clubs like Aberdeen headed by a very vociferous Keith Wyness demanding parity for smaller clubs and Sky payouts, despite if you know anything about the SPL the mmajority are only in existence thanks to playing the Auld firm so many times a season. Marc Cartwright 45 Posted 17/11/2007 at 19:51:57 Report abuse Come on all you heathens! Lets drag our beloved Everton football club further and further into the realms off the past. We don’t want to progress, we want to hold on to the ideal that Everton belong in the 1970’s, Ball, Kendall, Harvey, we think we have a devine right to be at the top!!! HELLO WE DON’T!!!!Everton Football Club, the team I’ve supported since Kevin Sheedy scored a winner at Old Trafford in 1983 (god forbid I was nearly a red scum) needs to move on. I love Everton, I love Goodison, but our stadium is a joke to even Birminghan City fans and we need to move into the future. Moyes bashers, do you remember 93/94 and Graham Stuart, even Gareth Farrelly? Is that our legacy? It shouldn’t be! We were champions 84/85 and 86/87 (should have been 85/86, bloody Oxford) and Moyes’s as far as I’m concerned has pulled us from the brink. Everton deserves the support of every fan that can get up to Liverpool whether a scouser or a fan whose dad supported Wolves but changed his mind in 1970 then made his son support them no matter what. I would love to support Everton in a brand new stadium and not have the opposition singin "what a Fookin shit ole’!. We are Everton football club. Lets grab the future and believe we are a club that can challenge again. Nil Satis etc...... yes I believe it and Moyes as far as I am concerned is the man ! Come on David, COYB, I love you! As much as I hate to admit it but look at Arsenal, Man U, they stuck by their managers and look at the rewards. Man U and the Arse have both invested hugely in their stadium and supporters have followed. EVERTON will be the same. Forget Newcastle, Derby, Sunderland, their new stadiums have generated revenue but EVERTON is EVERTON, one of the most traditional foorball clubs inthe country and we will be great again. KEEP THE FAITH! I will and I always will. COYB, Come on Bill, Come on Moyes, Come on AJ! Have faith and the boys will deliver!Yours a passionate non liverpublian Evertonian! Tom Hughes 46 Posted 17/11/2007 at 21:30:28 Report abuse Marc...... What is the point of your post? Why can’t a redeveloped Goodison satisfy all your stadium aspirations and still have the History/traditions and continuity too? Kirkby can certainly never provide those. The Kirkby proposals will cost the club a minimum of £50m, and probably substantially more than that given the overly conservative estimates released throughout this process, it started as for "practically nothing" remember. For that amount Goodison can be completely transformed. For instance: One or two of the Leitch stands could be preserved with new roof(s) to make the upper tier(s) completely unobstructed. The Parkend could be completely renewed to the same height of the Top Balcony but of 2 tier format and 15,000+ seats. The mainstand side could also be reroofed to remove all the obstructions in the Top Balcony and the majority in the mainstand.. For £80m the St end could be replaced and/or the Bullens replaced or extended, or the new Park end continued around the mainstand side. In otherwords that kind of investment could generate any number of solutions at GP. Furthermore GP is the only site where it can be done in more affordable stages instead of having to fund all at once to the detriment of investing in the team etc. The result could be a great combination of old and new. It doesn’t leave us high and dry if the fans just refuse to travel in the required numbers to an out of town stadium with massive incurred debt. Given Goodison’s position in the history of stadium design it could literally be the most unique football arena in the world. LFC are falling over themselves trying to include something of the past in their new stadium by creating a new Kop as a focal point and connection with the past...... we would have the real thing alongside contemporary new design. The same Leitch balcony that witnessed Dixie’s 60th mixed with a modern interpretation of Toffeopolis. This can never be achieved in Kirkby. As for Birmingham..... I’ve been to St Andrews many times, It’s newer on 3 sides, but it’s a nothing stadium, of no note and no character, with next to no elevated views and pitifully low capacity. Eric Holland 47 Posted 17/11/2007 at 22:23:02 Report abuse Tom for £80 mil this for £80 mil that.Wake up it’s a done deal were off to Kirkby,no more smelly toilets no more obstructed views no more standing up or ducking down to try and catch a glimpse of the ball. History is history that will never change, but if we don’t move fast we are going to be left behind. Tesco stadium bring it on. Neil Pearse 48 Posted 17/11/2007 at 22:41:59 Report abuse Gavin, I am not responding directly to your comment because it is beneath contempt. Given that I have criticised Wyness on a number of occasions on this site, and today have been clear that I actually don’t rate him that highly, why on earth are you saying that I have my head up his arse? Clearly you make a habit of disgraceful unsubstantiated slurs. You should grow up and try to break the habit - or shut the fuck up. I do not usually respond like this, but your comment to me - like your corruption allegations against Wyness - is completely out of order. Jay Campbell 49 Posted 17/11/2007 at 22:42:57 Report abuse MARC it won’t be EVERTON anymore!!! Regarding a previous article that Lyndon wrote where he made reference to a "NEW EVERTON" well he’s right coz this move will change the face of our footclub forever. My opinion is the YES voters are not only voting to re-locate us but they are also chosing to turn their back on our home, our tradition and the clubs values. The vote was simple do you want to stay or go!! If you voted yes you chose to go with Kenwright, Wyness and the other numbskull’s to Kirkby with no Plan B. Like Kenwright and Wyness the Yes voters can dress up this move as best they can and use word’s like "progression" "compete" and phrases like "we don’t wonna get left behind" but the fact ov the matter is we have been kept in the dark about many aspects ov this move and only a selected few stand to make good ov this deal. How can we fill a 55000 seater stadium when we can’t even fill Goodison every week???(don’t use the restricted view’s excuse coz there’s only bout 3500 ov them) How can a man like Wyness earn 426K a year and keep his job from a business that has operated at a loss for 2 out ov the 3 years he’s been the CEO??? Can’t wait to see how they spin this latest set ov accounts at the AGM with turnover being down and debt’s climbing AGAIN this time to the sound ov 66 MILLION. No wonder Kenwright is searching 24/7 for investment coz he’ll need every minute ov the day to find a retarded Billionaire who’ll part with his dosh and trust it with these idiots!!!I feel the time has now come at Everton to either vote with your feet or as stated above follow Kenwright and his cronies to Kirkby. I am voting with my feet coz never will i step foot in that poor excuse for a stadium(they promised us a WORLD CLASS arena by the way) and b4 people start screaming "you follow your team through thick and thin" and your not a true blue I don’t care because i will not consider the club as Everton anymore coz in my eyes it won’t be. It will be an out ov town club who’s custodians decided that everything that the club was built on meant f*ck all in this modern SKY TV b*llock’s, overhyped P*ss poor era in football. When Goodison goes that’s it 4 me. Ajamu Mutumwa 50 Posted 17/11/2007 at 23:24:42 Report abuse Lyndon Lloyd: "MailBag and Fan Article submissions is representative of what we receive from our readers. I give you my word that it’s true, though, for what it’s worth to you."Its worth a lot to me, and I wouldn’t call you a liar. I would only note that you are rarely going to get articles praising the status quo so I am not really surprised. Magicjuan: I accept a lot of what you say. All I can say is thank god there is some dialogue about the loop, and more importantly that its not in the full public glare.To use another context, nobody speaks to Hamas in Palestine do they, but everyone knows that America, Israel etc speak to them. They just don’t do it publicily, and that to me is the right course. Cool heads, not losing faith and all that. I am not against the Loop, or a re-developed Goodison. I am firmly against some of the negative postering I see on this and other sites. And I don’t care one jot about political boundaries, becaues the boundary commission can change that in the jot of an eye.Finally, as Magicjuan said, the vote was to continue discussions about a move to Kirkby, not a a vote for a move in itself. I would hope that if a better DELIVERABLE, and financially viable deal came along that Everton would gobble it up. Peace. Rob Hollis 51 Posted 17/11/2007 at 23:59:53 Report abuse Employed in financial services...Nat West....Hmmmm Tom Hughes 52 Posted 18/11/2007 at 00:03:25 Report abuse Eric..... sorry you missed my point, but for £80m you can eradicate everything you dislike about GP, and enhance the bits you actually like.... even smelly toilets can be fixed for that amount, or doesn’t shite stink in Kirkby? Then you can keep your history and future where it belongs! I don’t think Kirkby can ever do that!!! Lyndon Lloyd Editorial Team 53 Posted 18/11/2007 at 01:14:04 Report abuse Ajamu: "I would only note that you are rarely going to get articles praising the status quo so I am not really surprised." Right, but your original inference, ("One of my favourite websites turning itself once again into "ToffeeNO" publishing every possible no angle that it can to turn a yes vote into a no vote."), Goebbels reference and all, was that we?re being selective in what we publish in order to push one side of the argument. Ajamu Mutumwa 54 Posted 18/11/2007 at 10:48:27 Report abuse Lyndon Lloyd: I recognise where you are going with this point. My inference was based on reading / viewing countless NO articles which didn’t move us one jot forward, coupled with your own clear No stance. I apologise if I got it wrong on this issue. While you can’t control the quality of information you receive, I remain concerned that many (though not all ) of the articles continue to tread the same tired old ground, continuing the "division" within the Everton family rather than trying to find some common ground which would draw yes and no supporters closer together. If we want to keep the debate fresh and contniue to engage people with the issues articles like the one above doesn’t do it for me. It keeps me more firmly in the yes camp. Peace. David Kenton 55 Posted 18/11/2007 at 11:19:44 Report abuse Ajamu Mutumwa"I remain concerned that many (though not all ) of the articles continue to tread the same tired old ground, continuing the "division" within the Everton family rather than trying to find some common ground which would draw yes and no supporters closer together."There?s no division...but common ground is being sought between two factions? How does that one work? Kev Wainwright 56 Posted 18/11/2007 at 11:55:52 Report abuse I have no doubt that Toffeeweb is only publishing the mail it gets and that they would put the other side. The problem is that this ignores a) the fact that people against something tend to be more active than those for it and b) by clearly stating a position the site is acting like a beacon for all discontents.Toffeeweb could and perhaps should excercise some editorial control and stop the same things being written time and time again, albeit with a different spin. This one of oh no I have made a mistake appears a bit to regularly across a number of platforms for my liking. It cannot be worth printing stuff by people saying look we are next to tesco on a retail park.. Come on how can that be a suprise or worthy of publishing.It is a shame that this site cannot say we were against the move and tried our best to put our view over but we accept that the majority of fans are in favour of the move. The danger is that you will appear like the Tory Party banging on and on about Europe and totally confused that not everyone agrees or even cares about the subject in the same way. The bottom line is that most fans want to see the best team in comfortable conditions and voted that way. Fair and Square. Tom Hughes 57 Posted 18/11/2007 at 12:25:01 Report abuse Kev said:"The bottom line is that most fans want to see the best team in comfortable conditions and voted that way. Fair and Square."I agree with much of what you say, but there is now no reason this cannot be achieved elsewhere or at a redeveloped GP. As for fair and square, I don’t believe having only one option promoted in the ballot papers, and and endless propoganda campaign in the media was in anyway a fair and balanced ballot, allowing people to make an informed decision with little or no facts..... especially as things such as costs to the club were clearly distorted. According to Wyness..... Before the ballot: cost to the club "practically nothing" (as low as £10m it was reported), after ballot: cost £50m, more recently £80m+. I’m sorry but that is in no way fair. You were sold something on the premise that it would cost nothing, and that we could not afford anything else. Now it has inflated massively and yet miraculously we can now afford it!! If we can, then plan B’s are by definition deliverable!!! therefore the club’s pre-vote claims were scandalously innacurate. That’s got nothing to do with protesters shouting loudest...... just facts straight from Wyness’ mouth. david k 58 Posted 18/11/2007 at 13:03:06 Report abuse Kev Wainwright,It’s supremely naive to think that a vote that went 3:2 in favour of a vote ’against oblivion’ would see the discontented meekly accept being catapulted out of town and into a Championship stadium. You give an anology of a defeated political party not changing unpopular policy and moving on; but, to continue the analogy, what you’re really asking for is that defeated party to disband altogether. Asking Toffeeweb to excercise editorial discretion (and here’s my own analogy) makes you sound like a member of the backbench 1922 Committee haranguing the BBC for being a Hornets Nest of communist activity. Like it or lump it, the issue of the stadium is as pressing now as it was back in July/August. That’s what happens when you have supporters intent on holding the board of directors accountable to the club’s proud traditions. Ajamu Mutumwa 59 Posted 18/11/2007 at 13:31:25 Report abuse David K: "There?s no division...but common ground is being sought between two factions? How does that one work?"By people such as Tom Hughes casting into sharp reflief some of the real contradictions in the Kirkby project. I don’t always agree with Tom, but he is one of the few No campaigners whom I have time for. As Tom says, if the debt is really £80m doesn’t it make a Plan B possible? It opens a useful stream of debate which is not sterile and fruitless. David K: "You give an anology of a defeated political party not changing unpopular policy and moving on; but, to continue the analogy, what you?re really asking for is that defeated party to disband altogether. "No, just probably recognise that while you maybe a majority in cyberspace, in the real world amongst the mass of supporters, for a variety of reasons, including apathy, you are a minority.When the no campaigners stop speaking as if they had 10,000 angry Evertonians on their side marching on Goodison, to quote Colin Fitzpatrick, that’s when we’ll see common ground. Just to let you know, my view is that Everton should be open to all options of development, from a re-developed ground to a move, therefore whether we move to Kirkby or the Loop makes no difference to me. I promise not to respond to any more comments in this thread. I think i’ve taken up enough of peoples time already. Thanks toffeeweb for the opportunity to respond without the ritual abuse you get from other No dominated forums. Peace. David Kenton 60 Posted 18/11/2007 at 14:17:58 Report abuse Ajamu Mutumwawould that everyone was as free-thinking as you. Unfortunately, the stadium debate isn?t being expressed as a difference of opinion that can be plotted on a continuum from Yes at one end, and No at the other. And neither can it be. It is, because of the intransigence of our board pushing ahead wioth this nonsense, a matter of Kirkby or not Kirkby.I can?t speak for Tom Highes, but I doubt he?d see the situation much differently from that. a.h 61 Posted 18/11/2007 at 14:45:34 Report abuse Apology not excepted.All you the daft arse yes voters, will not even admit you voted yes in ten years when were sat in a half empty pre-fab shit hole marooned in a shitty going nowwhere borough. Matty 62 Posted 18/11/2007 at 14:53:31 Report abuse Well said a.h. I extend it to all short sighted fuck wits. Thanks a lot. You make me sick.RIP EFC Tom Hughes 63 Posted 18/11/2007 at 15:15:41 Report abuse ah and Matty,Whilst I agree the subject matter and the potential consequences warrants anger, I can’t agree with the generalisation that all yes voters were Fwits. Not long after the vote I spoke to a cousin’s neighbour. An old lady who with her husband had been season ticket holders since the 50’s, and had attended since long before that. They voted yes based solely on the info sent to them. They never read the echo, and knew nothing of any alternatives or options, and basically took everything in the brochure as gospel, Kirkby or doom..... we have no cash for any alternatives etc. Blind faith, F/wittedness or or just victims of plain deceit? IMO they probably fall into one of these categories or something in between. Billy Brad 64 Posted 18/11/2007 at 15:15:10 Report abuse Having visited the next round of meaningless consulttion in Kirkby, and again no one from Evereton or Knowsley council present to answer questions. I came across the transport consultant from steers davies gleave, who informed on a few interesting facts. Firstly, there will only be 1,000 parking place for staff and corperates at this NEW EVERTON stadium.Secondly, trains travelling to and from Kirkby cannot change its frequency from 1 train every 15 mins. It will have 6 carriages tho, which means only 4,000 people will be able to use the train in the 1 hour preceeding the game.Thirdly everyone else turning up at the ground will have to park and ride with the cost of parking and riding being met by Everton, who will put the cost onto your match ticket.Finaly the consultant told me if this goes ahead this would be the 3rd public transport stadium in the UK, after Wembley, The Emirates so in other words when we win and feel like celebrating it will be 10 min walk to bus, then long winding journey back to your local or town ( Our City Centre ) I mean or back to the car and listen to the phone ins on the Radio. How shit will that be. Mark Perry 65 Posted 18/11/2007 at 17:35:56 Report abuse This site is turning into a diatribe for Kirkbu haters and Kenright loathers. You are all entitlked to your opinions but you should change the name of the site to "No to Kirkby and while you are at it Moyes and Kenright out!" You can have March as Chairman and Lyndon can be his mouth piece.Way to unite the fans and have an intelligent debate. David Kenton 66 Posted 18/11/2007 at 19:12:52 Report abuse Well said, Mark. I think all theToffeeweb admin must be communists. In fact, no, not communists at all - allowing dissent like this makes them more like anarchists. Which is just another name for antichrist. Tom Hughes 67 Posted 18/11/2007 at 18:55:56 Report abuse Mark Perry, you seem to have a problem with your keyboard. How does saying no to Kirkby equate to saying Moyes out? Who has matched these two views/issues up in criticism of Kirkby? What is intelligent debate about making this spurious connection? or is it just a distraction from the genuine points being made because there is little else you can disagree with? Some people seem to be having a problem distinguishing between the board and the shirt, or the boardroom and the performances on the pitch. One we support blindly, the other we give the task to do what is best for our club. That said, you have indirectly made an interesting observation. Has anyone come across an Everton forum where the majority have come out in support of Kirkby, especially given the recent release of information which was surely intended to enthuse and inspire etc? I haven’t yet!!! Brian Wolf 68 Posted 18/11/2007 at 23:15:35 Report abuse Tom, You haven’t come across a forum like that because the Yes voters have something better to do, like getting on with their lives. Why do people keep fighting the inevitable? This is going to happen and there is very little that the No supporters can do now that the Kirkby move is a reality. Yes you can bandy about the other different options, all of which were looked and found not to be viable, but the more you talk about them (even though they aren’t viable) the more you are switching people off sites like this, you rake over the same old ground and I for one am getting bored of the same old shite.As for you fans who will turn their backs on the club after the move, shame on you, shame on you indeed. Tom Hughes 69 Posted 18/11/2007 at 23:35:31 Report abuse Brian,I haven’t seen any no-voters coming out saying they’ve changed their minds either. Only yes voters who presumably should’ve had too much of a life to be bothered comin on here apologisingI have been involved in much bigger projects than the Kirkby one, and I can assure you, one thing I have learnt is that nothing is inevitable...... and certainly nothing that hasn’t even passed the planning stage. But one simple question...... If Kirkby is going to cost the club £50m min (Wyness), how can, for instance the redevelopment of Goodison not be viable? That does not make any sense. Wyness himself admitted that it was possible to redevelop Goodison Park when pushed pre-vote but that it was non-deliverable due to lack of funds..... it would appear he has now found the cash. I too am sick of the issue, but feel strongly enough to keep asking those pertinent questions because quite frankly it’s the whole future of the club at stake here. I asked them pre-vote and no-one could answer, and now even when Wyness himself reveals them you still seem unable or unprepared to accept that these figures render the whole stadium for nowt, the whole no plan B, the whole undeliverable options as a complete sham. I can’t understand why this is so earth shattering to people who supposedly have our best interests at heart. Terry Maddock 70 Posted 19/11/2007 at 09:12:05 Report abuse Billy Brad.. NONE of your arguements stand up.!!! Only 1000 parking spaces..??? As opposed to the 60 or so spaces at Goodison?A 10 minute walk to your bus or train..? If you run from Kirkdale station...you just might make it to the ground in 10 minutes...Or is it this fact....Most of the No side(not all before the cranks join in)...Live and drink within walking distance of the ground at the moment..and may have to suffer the same problems that fans from(like me) the city centre face ...you know , a 3-4 mile journey..or a train , bus , or cab ride..or one in 4 cant drink as they are driving.. Tom Hughes 71 Posted 19/11/2007 at 10:48:16 Report abuse Terry,There is absolutely no accuracy in anything you have said yet you are calling people cranks....."Only 1000 parking spaces..???As opposed to the 60 or so spaces at Goodison?"60? are you sure there are only that many cars parked at the Parkend, in the school, in the park every match? Have you ever been to Goodison? Furthermore, why can’t underground parking be built into any new stand at a redeveloped Goodison? For £50m, that’s more than possible. On top of everything there will be a far greater need for carparking at Kirkby since the public transport capacity is only one tenth that of Walton and a tiny percentage of that for the Loop which also has thousands of parking spaces on its doorstep."A 10 minute walk to your bus or train..?If you run from Kirkdale station...you just might make it to the ground in 10 minutes."It’s further to Kirkby station from the proposed site than it is Kirkdale from Goodison, not to mention soccerbus, which can only work in Kirkdale/Sandhills since there are far more trains using there than Kirkby."..Or is it this fact....Most of the No side(not all before the cranks join in)...Live and drink within walking distance of the ground at the moment..and may have to suffer the same problems that fans from(like me) the city centre face ...you know , a 3-4 mile journey..or a train , bus , or cab ride..or one in 4 cant drink as they are driving.."There is no "fact" in anything you have said....... You live in the city centre yet are moaning about the 2 mile journey to Goodison that can be achieved by any number of buses, trains or taxis? You can even walk it. Can’t you see the irony in this statement. I live in Woolton and have no problems getting to Goodison either directly or via town, both on public transport. Hardly any districts in Merseyside have any direct public transport routes to Kirkby, and none do in the Wirral where a third of our season ticket holders live. I worked in Kirkby for years, and made the journey via every method..... there is simply no comparison between Walton and Kirkby transport wise. Kevin Tully 72 Posted 19/11/2007 at 11:44:34 Report abuse One important point which hasn’t been raised on T.W. yet is what do the players think about the move? Do you think future players will want to come to Everton because of a new training facility and a new stadium? This is something you often see in the press about "this is a club with ambition who is looking to the future" as a reason for their signature. Or maybe it doesn’t matter what they think either. Rupert Coghlan 73 Posted 19/11/2007 at 12:37:31 Report abuse Kirkby hasn’t even got planning permission yet-and being Everton, it probably won’t! If it does, then it IS our only legitimate option on the table. I know we love our club and we only want the best, but we aren’t shopping in M&S like Arsenal and the like, we’re shopping in Tesco as thats what we can afford. We don’t have any money. And we won’t get investment until we move.I just hope the club deliver as good a stadium as they possibly can cos at the moment its not good enough, absolutely right. But without the money, they wont. Lee Spargo 74 Posted 19/11/2007 at 12:50:08 Report abuse FFS Tom Hughes 75 Posted 19/11/2007 at 12:34:09 Report abuse Kevin, as a kid in the 70’s I used to wonder why everyone didn’t want to play for us if only because we had the best ground by far. I’m sure it does influence some players, but no more than a good manager or better wages or success or even being in a great city, but there is no reason why a more impressive stadium cannot be built at our current home, which will have history, tradition and character which cannot be bought or replicated easily if at all.. Mark Perry 76 Posted 19/11/2007 at 14:46:58 Report abuse There is a difference between rational debate between fans who respect each other, and the constant "Your view is shit you cant be a real fan" rubbish that seems to populate most of the forums on this issue. The fact is that the yes people will probably never convert the no voters and vice-versa. All this is doing is re-oppening old wounds. I suggest that we wait, yes wait for the detailed proposals to be submitted to the planning authority then we can have something that has been lacking - an informed debate on actual facts - not a "this artists impression is crap rant".Maybe the mods could dedicate one forum to this topic instead of creating numerous new ones where the same shit is gone over and over.For my point of view I voted Yes and believe I made the right choice. I respect the no voters opinions, I just dont share them. What I dont except is the constant "everything the board do is crap" argument from the same old faces who hardly ever have a good word to say or are quiet when things are going well. If your an Evertonian lets be hearing you when things go right or we do well, not just when you are hacked off. Tom Hughes 77 Posted 19/11/2007 at 15:09:19 Report abuse Mark, I agree with what you’re saying, but I think the arguments against redevelopment/Loop or wherever have also been non-sensical/non-applicable at times (just read above, there are next to no real responses to the main issues raised by no-voters, some who originally voted yes). The other thing is, just given the detail that has been revealed so far it is important that the alternatives are given a proper hearing. There is nothing to suggest that the club is really exhausting all the options despite the fact that their own recent admissions are increasingly pointing to their viability. The process is heavily weighted towards pushing the whole Tesco proposals forward, there doesn’t appear to be any room for alternatives as the club is subordinate in the scheme. Dave Wilson 78 Posted 19/11/2007 at 17:58:12 Report abuse TomYou impress with your Knowledge, and ability to make/defend your points Whilst I dont agree with everything you say, some of your points - especially regarding our future - have been delivered with a chilling accuracy. Like you I see the consequences of a move to Kirkby all too clearly Keep fighting mate, the fat lady hasnt even got the gig yet Tom Hughes 79 Posted 19/11/2007 at 23:14:17 Report abuse Dave, cheers, but to be honest I don’t think a great deal of knowledge is required to unravel the whole process we have gone through since Kirkby was first mooted. I am just responding to what I believe to be misconceptions that were promoted during the vote, and are still held by some now in these threads. My general reservations and concerns remain, and I believe will be further vindicated as more detail comes out. By which time most will have forgotten what they voted for. Mark Perry 80 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:18:13 Report abuse Until the detailed plans are unvailed to the public and submitted to the local authority we are all making assumptions based on tit bits of information and artists impressions. I know people have strong views on this but PLEASE lets wait till we have all the information. If people still disagree then objections can be made at the planning meeting.Untill then all we are doing is assuming, a dangerous and devisive thing to do © ToffeeWeb