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Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Heading south before the winter

 84 Comments: First  |  Last

We?re 16th, on course for a 41-point season absent significant improvement, with five defeats in six matches, three points out of the last possible 12, and the likelihood of three out of 15 after next week. So is it okay with the ?Moyes is the Best Manager in the Premier League? brigade if the rest of us express concern now?

Given Bilyaletdinov?s half-hearted performance against Man Utd and the fact that he was replaced at half time by 17-year-old Ross Barkley ? supposedly on jankers for easing up in training ? I was left disgusted, not just by this one game but by his whole history at Everton. £9 million for someone whose impact at the club cannot be said to be more than marginal at the very, very best.

Compare him to what Arsenal got for just £1 million more ? Arteta! Or Andre Santos for a good deal less! Add Bily?s £9M to Yakubu?s price of £11M and you are not far off what Chelsea paid for Juan Mata. And for all the hype around Fellaini and what he might be, could be, should be ? most of the time he?s just a clumsy tackler with intermittently good distribution. There?s another £15 million that leaves you scratching your head...

It?s all very sad ? and it?s not just lack of money; it?s what you do with what you have. For several years now, Moyes's judgement in the transfer market has been way off. How much worse do we have to play, how much bleaker does the situation have to get before we demand changes? Not the "Quick, find me a billionaire" changes the Blue Union is demanding, but changes in the dressing room and on the field.

If there was a march for that, I?d be there. If there was a march for that, perhaps there would be some pressure on Moyes to switch things around instead of the constant fawning and groveling from the media from Kenwright and from some fans.

Walter Smith claimed that, if only Evertonians expected to lose instead of expecting to win, we?d be a lot less disappointed. Seems to me some of us are already doing that. Moyes needs to unload some deadwood and a couple of prospects to raise some money and bring in some new blood. If he can?t ? get in someone who can.

Peter Fearon, Liverpool     Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:22:51

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Trevor Mackie
1   Posted 30/10/2011 at 21:39:28

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In retrospect Peter the worst thing that happened was Moyes being in charge when we qualified for the CL, it's acted as a magic shield deflecting criticism ever since.

He's never progressed from Championship football and never will, but the fact is until we're up to our knickers in a relegation scrap the illusion he is a good manager prevails.
Jamie Tulacz
2   Posted 30/10/2011 at 21:29:53

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Blimey, it's a wonder with a manager like this we're even in the Premiership still. I'd have thought we be languishing down in the Conference by now, with such a terrible manager without a pot to piss in! And yet we've finished in the top 6 or 7 of the league for 6 out of the last 7 seasons- we must be incredibly lucky, who could believe it!

And we'll ignore any of the good signings that Moyes has made- Arteta £2m; Pienaar £2m; Cahill £1.5m; Coleman £60k; Vellios £250k; Baines £6m just off the top of my head. Plus some cracking loan signings, eg Drenthe from Madrid, Donovan a couple of years back.

Blimey SAF must be a terrible manager too, Veron for £25m, Kleberson for £6m what was he thinking. Dalglish £35m for Carroll; Chelsea £50m for Torres!

Or the fact that he's been forced to sell off his best players over the last few years, without being able to bring in new ones (net spend per year of about £3m and declining fast, virtually nothing in Premiership terms)

And we've not lost 5 out of 6 because those have been against: City, United, Chelski twice, the Shite (10 v 12) and at Fulham (previously lost about 11 out of 12). The best sides in the league, who have spent hundreds of millions to get where they are.

By this rationale we'd have scored an almost record low of 19 points last season (3 points after 6 games), and obviously the season ends after 9 games!

Give me strength!
Nick Entwistle
3   Posted 30/10/2011 at 21:51:46

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Nonsense Trevor. We were all applauding the 5ths and 6th positions. The guy's got no money, hasn't bought for two years. Doesn't put him above criticism, but the criticism from yourself and the post are broad strokes of not much.
And if the post was talking about five out of six against the likes of Wigan, fine. No points isn't great, but neither is no money against billions. That is what we've been up against.
Wayne Smyth
4   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:01:28

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Bily's an international class player. He's had very little consecutive game time and is _consistently_ played out of position when he does get a game.

He isn't a winger, he doesn't have pace or the dribbling ability and agility of a Pienaar. If Moyes wants a winger and wanted to pay £9M he could've done a lot better. Donovan was available for £7M, apparently.

What bily does possess is a quality left foot and quick feet. He excels in the hole behind the striker and around the box. Its not his fault if Moyes never plays him there.

Just look at how ineffectual Barkley was too when he came on. Another one shoved out of position.
Ryan Holroyd
5   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:05:39

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Well said Jamie.

Moyes will turn it around, he always does.

The fact is under him we have the most points in the premier league except United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea.

I don't agree with him all the time and he has made some iffy decisions that I don't agree with.

Some people wont be happy until he's gone.

Fair enough but he's not a shit manager that some people make him out to be.

Fact is we've sold our best playmaker (Arteta) and our best wide player (Pienaar) and not replaced them.

It's no wonder we're stuggling against City, Chelsea and United.

Where's Owen Coyle when you need him and his wonderful attacking football.

Trevor Mackie
6   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:21:29

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Moyes is a visionless man, this marriage of the mediocre he has with Kenwright is producing a dogs breakfast on the pitch, the stench of defeat is pernicious and Moyes with his deathly visage is chief pall bearer.
Leadership and inspiration is needed to face the odds not some morgue like figure complaining before a ball is kicked.
The remit is simple - find 11 players from somewhere twice a week and COMPETE - you get 3 mil p.a. for it.

Since we won the FA cup under Joe this lot have won trophies:

Leicester, Liverpool, Blackburn, Boro, Chelsea, Manu, Spurs, B'Ham, Arsenal, Portsmouth, City.

it ain't just the monied lot.

Once the step up arrived via qualification for the CL and more than hard work and hoofin' it was needed he was dead in the water and all the nonsense stats in the world don't change it.

A few months ago posts on here suggesting 6th was the new first were howled down, now it's trumpetted like the holy grail was visited - utter mediocre garbage and indicative of how some supporters are quite happy with shite.
Ryan Holroyd
7   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:20:27

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Come off it Wayne.

I've defended Billyaletdinov in the past but he can't even do the basic at the moment. You know like pass and control a ball.

I do feel for him a bit as every mistake he makes he gets pulverised for it but he doesn't help himself.

Anyway he's always played on the left hand side of midfield even for his national team. I know because I saw him at Euro 2008 when he was hooked in the Russia v Sweeden game in innsbruck.

In hindsight he was a terrible signing and it would be best for all if he left in January.
David Hallwood
8   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:06:58

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Peter you state ?For several years now, Moyes's judgement in the transfer market has been way off.? Surely you must realise the transfer market isn?t an exact science, and can you name me a manager that hasn?t made a few mistakes. Alex Ferguson has bought his share of duds, and go across the park and Rafa and Daglish have spent millions between them and seriously apart from Suarez, Torres and Alonso, how many of the rest have been class?
But transfers are hit and hope; just because a player is performing well, there?s no guarantee that he will replicate that form anywhere else because maybe the manager?s got different ideas, training methods etc, add in different country, language, culture it?s a wonder why so many are successful .
I always give the example of David Bentley who 2-3 seasons ago was pulling up trees for Blackburn, got his call up papers for England, and then he got a dream move to a ?big club? especially for a London Boy. And what happened next? He disappeared without a trace. Now this doesn?t mean that he became a bad player overnight or that Awwy can?t spot a player-it just didn?t work out.
But back to Moyes; to my mind like his transfer record stands up with most managers , trouble is that he isn?t been given the opportunity to build or detract from that.
Nick Entwistle
9   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:25:41

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So all would be forgiven if Moyes brought in a league cup victory Trevor? Where are Leicester, Boro, B'Ham and Portsmouth? Excatly where Blackburn are heading. Another pointless argument because a cup win wouldn't have changed our current position one iota. Just another empty Moyes-bash argument. Tell me you'd swap our last ten years for Blackburn, even if they did/ did not have a season in the Championship.
Moyes' team are playing rubbish now. With a team asset-stripped to pay off BK's financial failings. Nothing to do with his last ten years of solid management. Criticize his performance now with a pitifully small squad at his disposal, without a buy in two years, then you might have something worth saying.
Thomas Williams
10   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:18:06

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Yes, we have lost 5 out of 6, but did anybody really expect much more? We are being run on a Division 4 style basis, never mind Championship, it is pathetic. Suddenly to me some have woken up and, rather than hold their hands up and blame BK, it is half-way measure and blame Moyes.

Has he made mistakes? Yes: Bily, Krøldrup fair enough, Yakubu? Give me a break ? he got 20 goals in first season, the injury finished him. Moyes has made less mistakes in transfer dealings in 9 years than Dalglish has in 10 months!!

Moyes is in the impossible job and position, whilst some many argue well he gets well paid to do it, but personally I would rather be paid less and have a chance of competing, than the current environment and restrictions he is working under.
Other than Chelsea away, the other games we were in it and competing well. We are not getting much rub of the green either at the moment, we deserved to win yesterday and on Wednesday, but sadly breaks went against us and we have lost both.

Although the obvious weakness of conceding the same goal each week should have been sorted by now, ball down the right side of our defence, crossed, Baines stands still, guy pokes ball in net ? just look at how many times that has happened this season.
Danny Broderick
11   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:33:54

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Managers get some right and they get some wrong. I'd say Moyes has got more right than wrong, I just wish he'd buy a few more attack-minded players instead of 'jack of all trades' defenders who he can play in midfield if need be.

I have to say though that the signing of Bilyaletdinov has been an absolute car crash. A sheep has got a bigger heart than him. I would let him go on a free just to have him off the wage bill & to put me out of my misery watching him. The odd 30-yarder (and they seem to be happening less and less) can never make up for the lack of effort and endeavour he has displayed so many times.

I hope and pray someone will make us an offer, but realistically who would want him? At least with Krøldrup we only took a minor loss. For me, Bily is Moyes's worst ever buy based on what we paid for him, what would get for him... and, more importantly, contribution.
Gavin Ramejkis
12   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:39:48

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My perspective on Myes is that he is stubborn beyond belief and far too many times to be personally acceptable any more are his pre match defeatisms, his annoyingly over defensive line ups, his one trick pony strategy, 4-5-1 can work if you have a mix of attacking and defending midfielders, packing it out with defenders isn't working. He plays injured players which risks greater injury - plays Cahill injured without a goal in months and you wonder what the hell for? He brings players on late into games to try to earn a draw rather than trying to win and game then hold onto it or pull ahead.

The players he has now, every last one of them are his so no excuses of having to deal with other poor signings. The football is generally dreadful to watch and I'm finding it easier now for away games just to catch the result, in over forty years and all the games I've been to home, away, cup games and some godforsaken holes at the arse end of the country, Europe and yet I'm finding it easy to switch off, a little too easy, fed up with the lack of quality, fed up with the lack of effort, fed up with the general apathy.
Trevor Mackie
13   Posted 30/10/2011 at 22:43:52

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Straw man stuff you're entire argument is based on saying cup wins equate to relegation - not even worth commenting on it's so ridiculous.

This best of the rest medallion was seen as a back handed compliment less than a season ago, the ends justifying the dreadful means suddenly they've become halcyon days.

Maybe for you fella but for me and others who haven't renewed their tickets.

This money argument - just look at Bily and Jonny H - Moyes is a tyre kicker.

Nick Entwistle
14   Posted 30/10/2011 at 23:06:21

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No Trevor, cup wins is your argument. I'm not sure why you've brought up some winners of devalued tin pots and placed them in with league and European champions, so please explain.

The reason I stated their championship status is to highlight a cup win is no source of improving a club's league chances, and neither is a win justification for overlooking league form.

So again, please explain why you brought up Birmingham bloody City.
Educate me so I can understand why the best of the rest moniker is 'mediocre'.
With no money we should expect top four this season. Anything else is just 'garbage' and 'shite', right?
Trevor Mackie
15   Posted 30/10/2011 at 23:41:43

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Why don't you read my post.

The word COMPETE is in capitals for a reason, trophy winners might be thought of as examples - or is that a stretch - y ' know winning something might be classed as competing.

You and your ilk seem happy with what he does even though he jacks it before kicking a ball moaning about kick of times, knives to a gun fight going into games without a balanced team - no attackers.
As said this is his design over 10 yrs - nobody elses.

Comment on what I've said not what you think I've said, it's a crap diversion that you Moyes supporters always do.

John Ford
16   Posted 31/10/2011 at 00:04:44

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So a few teams gathered the crumbs of the league cup when the best teams play their second string. So what. Are you suggesting you'd swap with any of them? Down the years we've COMPETED better than anyone to break the glass ceiling. FACT, based on league placings.

Using this to suggest non money teams have success is actually arguing against your own point.

Take away the money teams (including Liverpool) and thats six teams in sixteen years winning something. 6 from 48 available domestic trophies. Remove the second eleven freak show of the league cup and youre left with er......two, oh actually no, its.... one!

Seriously Trevor you need to think this through. So the only time anyone really wins is when the good teams give their best players a rest?....kind of emphasises the money team success thing dont you think?

Success is sadly a relative thing these days. We're fucked because of money, and saturday was about the best example yet of why.
Andy Crooks
17   Posted 31/10/2011 at 00:21:52

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Each season, the list of teams in the Premier League who are worse than us grows smaller. I still think there are three this year but I'd happily see us grind out a few wins.

Every November is the same at Everton. Any possibility of winning something has gone, hope has gone, and all looks grim. Moyes pulls us back from disaster, we finish well, all is forgiven, optimism builds for next season, and Moyes is lauded once more.

Is that acceptable for Everton? I say no.
Marcus Kendall
18   Posted 31/10/2011 at 00:40:04

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The truth is Moyes is a decent manager, not as bad as his detractors would suggest and certainly not as good as the Moyesiah brigade would have you believe (not to mention the media).

Where Moyes is fortunate is that the clubs who could/should be coming ahead of us with the money they've spent (Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland) continually appoint bad managers which gives Moyes the chance to come ahead of these teams and to make him look like a better manager than he really is. Don't be fooled by Newcastle's start, Pardew will be found out soon enough, as will McLeish at Villa, whilst Steve Bruce is simply a woeful manager, full stop.
Jimmy Sorheim
19   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:01:31

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Instead of looking at this in a Moyes way, try looking at it in a just another coach way.
Moyes Decides who stays or goes! True, he sold Arteta without having a replacement ready, also sold Beckford,Vaughan and Yakubu, also didnt replace them.
Moyes decides who he picks to play, and where! 451 and players out of positions.
Moyes defends selling Arteta while leaving our club bare naked for all to see!
Look at the actions of the coach and you see the results. I would love to see anyone try to defend these decicions, as they are the most recent of many devestating ones made by David Moyes.

Take a look, he has been here 10 years now, do we really need him to destroy or to sell any more of our top players.
Truth is I want some new blood in, old blood out, it worked with Walter and will work again. Moyes will be gone as soon as a big club comes for him anyway so why not make a change before that happens. Paul Lambert is a good pick, attacking coach mentality who actually has achieved something with Norwich. What has Moyes achived in these 10 years, nothing much, very little and it is time for a change, for Moyes and for Everton Football Club!
James Stewart
20   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:26:37

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Trevor and Gavin pretty much sum up everything in a nut shell!

The key word being "Apathy" as Gavin states. I simply don't care much anymore about watching Everton anymore under Moyes. We are boring and predictable as hell and it just isn't entertainment!
Derek Thomas
21   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:17:53

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In most things I agree with Gavin and Trevor 12 & 13 and when I get wound up about it I am a bit more harsh than them.

Trouble is I am being ground down, I get less and less wound up less often. There are few if any highs and the lows follow each other in mind numbing progression.

I won't say I don't care. I just don't care as much.

At half time ( 0-1 ) I got a txt off No 1 son saying we arn't doing too bad...well off I went again all wound up, but then relented, mainly coz I was to wound up to txt properly ( and I can't abide predictive text and text speak ) and was just mildly reproving.

The both of them ( aged 8 & 10 ) were at Goodison for the Bayern game. In 40 or so years there will be few if any alive who where. From my age and perspective and in real terms 40 yrs has flown and is nothing. Hands up who was there for Sandy's own Goal?? more gap like that is all it takes.

If the rot is not stopped soon it will be too late....and to my mind the on the field rot is the short term problem to be fixed soonest....see what happens when I get wound up, I find I care again, 4 or 5 paragraphs ago I didn't care.
Eric Myles
22   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:23:26

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"*The odd 30-yarder (and they seem to be happening less and less)*"

Correct me if I'm wrong but players aren't allowed to score from the subs bench are they? Don't they have to actually be ON the pitch to score?
Nick Entwistle
23   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:49:45

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Trevor, fact is the football now sucks. But to suggest this current low is due to some fan acceptance that a 4th and some 5ths and 6ths was success is wide of the mark.

The best of the rest title was indeed a back handed compliment because at the time we had SOME money and should have been in the top 4 more than once. But we were in the least competing for those places.

And you don't get to be top 1 unless you're in the top 4, and look who took us there! So we were competing.

But now we don't have a pot to piss in. So as we're asset-stripped of players without a signing in two years, where would you believe a credible and competitive season would have us finish?

And as for your citing of the great Birmingham City and Portsmouth, if you'd have wanted a league cup win and multiple relegation battles from Moyes, he would have gone long before his £70,000pw contract was signed.

Peter Fearon
24   Posted 31/10/2011 at 03:32:59

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I used to have this argument when Walter Smith was coming to the end of his shelf life. Turn your league tables the right way up. We are 16th. If that is good enough for you Moyes apologists, fine. But say it: "Ten years on, I like being 16th." Yes, you may be right. He may be able to drag us back to mediocrity by the end of the season. It's still mediocrity. We need a new perspective, a new style, a new approach to shake up the playing staff and the fans. Just as we did ten years ago. I'm not saying he's an overall shit manager. But he's out of ideas and well off his game.
John Keating
25   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:05:44

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Bily has been given game time and has consistently wasted it.
The odd shot and goal does not warrant him being picked.
This piss that I keep hearing about him being played out of position is an absolute nonsense.
What the hell does where you are supposed to play have anything to do with the fact that you can't run, head, jump, pass, chase back................ Sorry that was 9 mill completely down the tubes.
We should cut our losses and sell his for a tenner - if we can get that much - in January !!
Tom Hughes
26   Posted 31/10/2011 at 08:49:47

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Bily has turned out to be a mistake..... hardly a surprise tho.... no manager gets them all right especially when they get the cash last minute and the cupboard is bare. Everyone can name poor signings by every other manager ( wenger and our franny?)........ it shoulldn't detract from the main issues regarding net spends and the constraints he's had to work with, because any prospective new manager would have the same situation..... in otherwords you haven't solved the real problems. That's not to say I'm happy with mediocrity, best of the rest and/or dire footy.... but I'm not sure that there are many who could've done better... which whether or not you like the stats, they do support moyes. The stats for our board's record of investment and delivery is markedly far more catastrphic.... and the real elephant in the room!
Richard Dodd
27   Posted 31/10/2011 at 09:41:39

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To my mind, Moyes has only made three significantly bad signings in his 10 years here: Krøldrup, Bily and Heitinga. What`s that, about a 10% failure rate? When you compare that with other top managers ?even Harry, SAF and Wenger ? he hasn`t done too badly. Trouble is that the quality of those he can afford is nowhere near good enough to compete for honours!
Danny Broderick
28   Posted 31/10/2011 at 09:51:28

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Eric (22),

Why has he been on the bench so much?

Yeah, that's right, it's cos he's been fucking shite.
Trevor Mackie
29   Posted 31/10/2011 at 10:03:32

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John Ford

Are you being serious?

Rubbish the league cup if you will but if Moyes had won it every apologist would be banging the same drum:

"ah, but he won us the league cup"

It's like this garbage over best of the rest - have you considered what might have happened if we'd competed and attacked?

I calculated if we'd lost 9 points from the last 2 seasons we'd have dropped one or two places.

Hardly the end of the world if genuinely competing in every game, bringing pride and excitement to the old place developing a decent team not crumbling away into obscurity.

The flip side is if we'd gained 9 points we'd have qualified for the Champions League (goal diff allowing) with all the money and benefits that brings.

But no, lets stick to the same old same old throwing the towel in before we've kicked a ball and pretend being top of mid table is acceptable, nay success.

it's not - it's shite.
Dave Wilson
30   Posted 31/10/2011 at 10:25:40

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"The worst thing that happened was Moyes being in charge when we qualified for the Champions league"

Quite possibly the funniest comment I have ever read on these pages.

Brian Denton
31   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:32:33

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Dave Wilson, quite agree that the comment was a little lacking in logic !

Well, my season now consists of hoping:
(a) There are three teams worse than Everton; and
(b) Four teams better than Liverpool.

And err.... that's it.
James Stewart
32   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:37:41

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The thing about the Champions League qualification is we barely stumbled over the finish line. Our form was terrible after Christmas and Gravesen leaving.

We were just lucky that year that sides below us were equally as bad! That kind of points total won't get you 4th anymore!
Dave Wilson
33   Posted 31/10/2011 at 12:15:16

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That's like saying you shouldn't be given the prize money for finishng fourth in the Grand National because the race was run at a slow pace.

It's also ignoring the fact that the team that finished 5th actually won the thing.
Jay Harris
34   Posted 31/10/2011 at 14:01:48

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Billy - absolutely disastrous in the Premiership. Plays like a little boy lost.Might as well play with 10 men.

Moyes - a dignified,hard working and honest manager but dour and uninspiring just like his teams.
Could have become a really good manager but lost it when he took 30 pieces of silver from Kenwright for accepting mediocrity from the board and has become a broken man since.

Kenwright- an arrogant, incompetent dickhead who IMO is responsible for taking the club towards oblivion with his head in the sand resistance to change.
If he really cared about EFC he would do the honorable thing and sell up or resign and appoint a more capable chairman.
Trevor Mackie
35   Posted 31/10/2011 at 17:43:23

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Brian Denton

Thick or on the juice?

You brazenly say your only hope is there are 3 teams worse than us....... but don't get the point about Moyes.

Oh hang on..... You agree with Dave Wilson.

Forget it.... thought you might be lucid.

Andy Crooks
36   Posted 31/10/2011 at 18:17:08

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Three teams worse than Everton. That's what it's it come to.
Simon Templeman
37   Posted 31/10/2011 at 19:27:02

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A glance at the table suggests just 1 win against the RS, MCFC, MUFC, or Chelsea in our recent fixtures would have us in 8th. The next 10 or so games will be pivotal but it's not the end of the world. Yet.
John Daley
38   Posted 31/10/2011 at 19:40:30

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"To my mind, Moyes has only made three significantly bad signings in his 10 years here: Krøldrup, Bily and Heitinga. What`s that, about a 10% failure rate?"

You can add Richard Wright, James Beattie, Simon DavIes and Andy Van der Meyde to that list straight away.
Tom Hughes
39   Posted 31/10/2011 at 19:56:48

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When you're mainly shopping at pound stretcher and second hand reject shops, you're going to pick up some shite... especially when on one of those really rare moments you do have a few bob, the shopkeeper's trying to shut up shop and knows your desperate to buy.

I'm not sure why anyone's so surprised.
John Ford
40   Posted 31/10/2011 at 19:38:03

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Trevor, I wasnt knocking the league cup, just highlighting that its won by 'other' teams solely because the rich elite dont show up with their money players. The evidence is there, clear and simple. Id like to have won it, but you seem to be suggesting that Birmingham, Boro are something to aspire to!

How would 'Having a go' get us further up the league? If you actually mean teams attacking in large numbers, then without having the best attacking midfielders and forwards around, there is no success to be found. Many flatter but ultimately fail (last season West Ham. Sunderland, Bolton, Blackpool all threw themselves into attack, had early success, then got found out and failed miserably!) Newcastle do this anually!

- again money dictates the level of success by creating uneven distribution of the best attacking players - who are actually the most expensive to buy and are swept up by the elite - always.

Shrewd managers know this. Moyes included. The five man midfield has served our attack well down the seasons

Moyes has weaknesses but your frustration means you ignore whats staring supporters of all clubs outside of the rich elite.

The single determining factor for success is the level of investment, and this is almost irrespective of who manages. Plain and simple. The evidence is overwhelming.

Dave Wilson
41   Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:09:34

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You`ve been saying the same yourself, have you not ?

I dont think Brain Denton does actually agree with me, except the bit where he thinks the opening comments in post #1 are so incredibly funny.
Cant be too many read that without laughing . .a true classic.

The point is,every manager with more money to spend than Moyes has made more bad signings than him, funny that
Simon Templeman
42   Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:39:26

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Will try posting this again, Had we had a result against either Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd or Man City in our recent fixtures (which we seem to have managed in our recent past) we would be in a far better (8th) position. We have normally managed something against the above. The next 10/12 fixtures will be massive as we seem to move into an easier fixture list.
Trevor Mackie
43   Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:38:03

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John Ford

Why oh why make stuff up?

"but you seem to be suggesting that Birmingham, Boro are something to aspire to!"


You expressed a view immediately after I had dealt with this, I asked if you were serious clearly I have the answer.
John Ford
44   Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:45:07

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Tony you fail to address the points as usual.
Trevor Mackie
45   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:04:42

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case closed.
Nick Entwistle
46   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:13:58

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Brian Denton
47   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:24:05

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Trevor Mackie, whatever else I might be, I'm not 'thick'. In fact I'm Toffeeweb's unpaid consultant on matters to do with Latin don'tchaknow....Nowhere do I mention support (or otherwise) of Moyes in my post. I was merely amused by the logical absurdity which Dave Wilson correctly pointed out.

Hmmm, 'thick' eh.......I shall ruminate. In private, of course.
John Ford
48   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:35:47

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You mean that much to me Trevor/Tony, Hah!
Trevor Mackie
49   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:35:32

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Good for you.

As you still don't get it and don't mention the juice I guess it's not just opinion you share with the boy Wilson.

Jon Cox
50   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:32:02

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I dont get this thing about the Carling cup. Shirely it's a piece of silverware and second it's a path into Europe.

Whats the problem. The "Big" teams only put out youngsters because they know they're going to qualify for Europe any way

John Daley (37) spot on but I'll check with Michael Winner anyway just to be sure ;-).
Nick Entwistle
51   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:08:24

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...but don't call me Shirley.
Brian Denton
52   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:07:23

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Trevor, you're crazy ! I can't see how you've reached any conclusion about opinions I share with Dave Wilson, other than that I happened to agree with him on a matter of logic. To put it more clearly, perhaps; it doesn't make sense to say that the worst thing about coming fourth was to have at that time the manager who had just achieved fourth place for you. Savvy ?

Now, how you can extrapolate from that that I'm a paid up member of the Moyes fan club is beyond me.

You're making an arse of yourself mate. I would consider myself one of the less provocative Toffeeweb contributors, but I'm not going to take that sort of crap lying down !
Jon Cox
53   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:13:04

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Thanks Nick. A little bit to much Juice......
Trevor Mackie
54   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:16:58

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Stand up then.

Using the words "logic" and "Wilson" is a contradiction in terms.

I would explain further but you said you're not thick!

Night night.
Trevor Mackie
55   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:20:50

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Try not to get upset now.
Brian Denton
56   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:28:56

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Never do, mate. I must stress in my case 'not taking crap lying down' means 'not letting it go without rebuttal'. It doesn't (perhaps disappointingly from your point of view) mean I'm offering to meet you for a fight outside The Winslow........
Jon Cox
57   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:14:09

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I remember the time when Moyes came to our club. We had guys like Kilbane in the side. It was great. There was verve a feeling of zeal of urgency to achieve. This is what depresses me now. We have lost all that.

Now all that has been replaced by negativity and even more so apathy.

Moyes (for whatever reasons) is not a happy man. He is not by any stretch of the imagination enjoying his football. It was so much different in his earlier tenure.

I dont hate the guy but I dont love him either. This is the best way to be I think because you can evaluate what he is about NOW. It's no good thinking about what he was and it's no good thinking about money. Its only about thinking whats going on on the pitch as this point in time.

I would love him to be triumphant in all he does because I like his straightforwardness and his morality.

He's a decent genuine bloke. His worst enemy however is himself.

Many moons ago bands I played in always had a certain trait. If one guy was pissed off about anything then on the night of a gig it crap because it infected the rest of us. Many times I would be hacked off and I made sure the rest of the guys knew it. For a great gig to happen all of us had to be up in the clouds, best of mates and ready to take on the world. I see the Moyes of the first five years in this scenario. Every player couldn't wait to get out of bed and down to Bellafield just to be around Moyes. It was a footballing high.

But now times have changed. Moyes has been worn down by the finance and politics of the "Controllers" of our great club. The negativity from upstairs has gone through Moyes, as a conduit, to the players.

It seems we'll never get rid of those upstairs so the easy way is to get rid of Moyes. It's not about hating the man, it's about what will work for our team in terms of fresh blood fresh ideas. Even buying and selling.

It has to change and it has to change soon. Apart from that football has got so predictable and so so boring and we are defo heading for an SPL situation.

Look at the empty seats not just at Goodison but around the country. People are working it out. The premier League is becoming a Celtic Rangers thing.

I'm starting to look forward to the next syncronised swimming tournement.

Sorry guys my wrists look like they (metephorically speaking) need sliting because todays football, and mostly Everton is so desparately boring,

and incredably, unbelievably dull.

Robbie Shields
58   Posted 01/11/2011 at 00:05:15

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Dave, I am obviously still in the 0.02%, because I completely see the point that Trevor made in #1. Too many supporters for my liking keep pointing to certain 'successes' in Moyes' reign in order to defend him and don't seem to want to see what is happenning out on the pitch in front of them.

It goes something like this, someone pipes up and says "You know what, this footy we are playing now is actually pretty shite, thinking about it, it's actually been pretty shite for 10 years since Moyes came here, but I didn't really care when we were scraping games 1-0 (Especially given teh improvement over that dour git Smith). Now however, we are losing games, also we never look like winning them, we're told before the game we aren't going to win it, the team is setup not to get beat, and the footy is just shite, why should I spend my hard earned to go and watch that dross, even if we win now it is hollow because it means I'm going to watch yet more of this dross in the future. Bollox to it, I'll go on Toffeeweb and let everyone know I'm getting fed up with this shite week in week out, it's only going to get worse not better"

Que Doddy, Mr Tunstead and Mr Wilson with the following

1) x Many League Managers awards
2) FA Cup Final
3) Champions League Qualification
4) Linked to replace SAF at United
5) Pundits and Media think he's great

All done in less than 10 years of complete control over everything in the club don't ya know, what a guy.

Well, for me it is very simple. 10 years of shite football, it is no longer a pleasant experience watching the Mighty Blues, infact it is downright embarrasing watching pub football week in week out. It can only go on for so long and then you inevitably get what you deserve, we are shite, have been for a long time, and at this moment in time we are in serious danger of relegation, I too hope there are 3 worse teams than us but I'm not so sure.

I don't know were you 3 sit in the stands to watch the mighty blues, but try going in the Top Balcony and just watch the lack of movement and lack of options in midfield when we have the ball, it's been like that for 10 years.

Attendences are down BIG TIME, 5,000 empty seats for United and Rooney at home, Wolves at home will be interesting, we could have less than 30,000 for a league game at home for the first time in many many years. This 0.02% might well be 10,000 stay away fans, and rising.

Moyes Out
Dave Wilson
59   Posted 01/11/2011 at 06:40:46

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Ah Robbie.

why am I not surprised. an attack on Moyes and you agree, well I never . .but you are posting about things you dont know about this time arent you Robbie, by you`re own admission you didnt see the Man U game and you couldnt have seen the Chelsea game last week and you seemed oblivious to events at the Cottage . .so how can you tell us we didnt look like winning ?

You want to call people who have seen the games - and therefore have something on which to form an opinion - childish names, its laughable.

Here`s some news for you; Ian Tunstead didnt vote Moyes manager of the year, dozens of other prem managers did that.
Doddy did not Link him with the Man United job, the football fans and reporters up and down the country do that. and I dont think either work in the media, so I`m not sure why you think they are in some way responsible for the love in.

Evertons season tickets sales are slightly down, but the avaerage league gate is about the same as it was last season, so your claims of ten thousands fans staying away because of Moyes is even further away than your "he`ll be out by November" claim.

People are unhappy at GP, There will be further protest, but just so you are aware of what they are unhappy about, why not take another look at the last BU march . .only this time dont stick your fingers in your ears when they stand in Goodison Rd chanting Moyes`s name at the tops of their voices.

Seems they dont agree with you either Robbie, are they all gullible apologists ? ALL OF THEM ?

Perhaps they just have a greater understanding of the situation than you . .Ever thought of that ?
Trevor Mackie
60   Posted 01/11/2011 at 08:32:09

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Astute posting on the apologist formula, it's as predictable and ineffective as the Moyes game plan.

The common problem with Moyes boys is interpretation, they dive in attacking what they imagine is said rather than understanding the ACTUAL point.

I posted about us "competing", or lack of to be exact, and one of the characters said I must want us to be like boro, bham et al, which could have been deemed an honest mistake if they hadn't already replied to my post demolishing said invention.

The tangents, diversions and sometimes lies clearly makes them warm and tingly invoking their heavenly stats but they are as relevant as kitchen lino if nothing to do with the point in hand.

I've noticed they're getting short shrift from many now pissed off with the disregard for what's in front of our eyes.

Robbie Shields
61   Posted 01/11/2011 at 08:53:44

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Dave, why couldn't I have watched the Chelsea game? Fact is I did, utter utter shite, Neville for Cahill, now go on, defend that one.

I also saw the Fulham game, with Bobby Zamora missing an open goal in the last minute, yes he missed and we then scored whilst they were still she'll shocked from the miss. Guess what, I was jumping up and down like a mad man, chuffed to bits at our good fortune, but I certainly wasn't singing "oh Davey Moyes". Last time I sung that was about 4 years ago.

Again you miss the bigger picture with regards to the BU. They very cleverly have disassociated themselves from the Manager issue so that they didn't alienate a sizable chunk of the support and instead get everyone's support to get rid of Kenwright, who is the biggest problem we have for sure, no argument. Doesn't change the fact that Moyes is what Moyes is.

There appears to be some very intelligent guys in the BU leading the revolution, they appear to be a few steps ahead of you in their thinking. If you still can't see it then I'm afraid that is your problem, I can see it, so do others.
Dave Wilson
62   Posted 01/11/2011 at 09:17:56

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Robbie I didnt think you saw the Chelsea game because when I saw the match day forum on here the next day I noticed people from all over the world saying they could not get a chanel or a link, lucky for you you were one of the few.

"The BU have very cleverly disassociated themselves from the manager issue so that they didnt alienate a sizeable chunk of the support" LOL They were so cunning they even fooled us - you know, the ones who were actually there - what a clever thing to do. They threw us all off the scent by chanting Moyes`s name.

Perhaps they were sending little messages to you in Australia telling you what they REALLY meant.

Sorry Robbie, your credibility was hanging by a thread, but that little gem was right up ther with Mackies crackpot "kenwright has got money, he just wont give it to Moyes " theory and for that reason
I`m out.

You guys have a nice day
Trevor Mackie
63   Posted 01/11/2011 at 10:23:31

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I like your simplistic attitude Dave - open fridge door......close fridge door, pull ring tab and repeat.
But posting in a state of oblivion is too "Tommy Cooper"..... every time I think, "you're joking!".
Your interpretation of away supporters chanting for anything Everton aligned, including Moyes, is just simple - do you really think they're gonna start having a go whilst in enemy territory?
Robbie Shields
64   Posted 01/11/2011 at 10:40:37

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Dave, in Australia we get every EPL game live on FoxTel, so I get to see every game in HD, no Internet streaming required, how good is that.

I've read the BU statements and objectives, they are very clear and simple, get an independent body in to oversee the sale of the club. Why would they want to confuse the matter by bringing Moyes into the equation and split their support in one foul swoop?

I'm desperately trying to be polite here; you're a fellow blue after all and your heart is in the right place, I'm just not sure where your brain is. It's good to have differing opinions, I do genuinely consider your points, I just can't reconcile them with what I see on the pitch, and have done for too many years now. I, and a seemingly larger group of both vocal and stay at home fans appear to have come to the same conclusion, the footy on show is dull, predictable, stale and now ineffective.
Dave Wilson
65   Posted 01/11/2011 at 10:57:52

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"In Australia we get every EPL game live on fox Tel, so I get to see every game in HD, no internet streaming required, how good is that?"

Terrific, Robbie lad, very pleased for you... but I think they were all struggling to see it because it was a Carling Cup game. Still, as long as you saw it.

I`m still baffled as to why you would want to gloat about a Fergie victory over your own club, Paticularly as he employed the tactics you claim to despise... very odd.


Look through the TW archives, find the footage of the BU March, study closely... yes, that's right, it's that place you used to go to many moons ago, it's Goodison Rd, where they are chanting Moyes's name ? not "enemy territory".

If you dont recognise it, the big fuck off Everton badge on the wall may give it away.

Anyway guys, it's been a blast, but I really do have to do some work now.
Trevor Mackie
66   Posted 01/11/2011 at 11:21:00

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Be consistent Dave.

You're off on the tangent as per the apologist formula -obviously you accept my point about away support.

But jumping on the BU band wagon to try and defend your self after recently criticising them - hypocrisy now Dave?
Dave Wilson
67   Posted 01/11/2011 at 11:34:42

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You are either deluded or you are telling porkies. Either way, you will not find a post from me criticising BU.

No matter how hard you try.
Anthony Lamb
68   Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:03:51

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Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of David Moyes's ability in the transfer market etc, a key issue for me is the almost complete lack of evidence that these players actually ever DO anything on the training round from week to week.

With the plethora of video/computer resources available etc has nobody EVER shown Jagielka, Hibbert, Neville etc that aimless lofted hoofing of the ball forward usually always gives the ball back to opponents? Has Moyes and staff not demanded that they STOP it?

Have the same players never been admonished for their dreadful failure with the basics, ie instant control of a football and the ability to weight a pass etc?

Has the goalkeeper never practised the art of taking a back pass, even under pressure, and actually confidently PASSING it to a colleague, à la the likes of Reina at Liverpool, rather than dissolving into panic mode in such circumstances?

Does Fellaini ever practice the ART of TACKLING in training so that he is able to win the ball and again not hand the opponent possession and himself a ludicrous number of yellow cards no matter how many might deem to be "unjustified" and thus miss important matches?

Do any Everton first team players EVER practice hitting a ball under pressure from outside the box in order to at least keep the opposing keeper at AWAKE?!

Leaving aside the arguments about lack of money etc etc, it is these "apparently" lamentable failures in professional application to the basic tasks at hand that David Moyes and those who carry out the so-called "training schedules" should be held to account. It is nothing short of a disgrace.
Anthony Millington
69   Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:19:34

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Spot on Peter, Moyes hasn't had much money to spend. However, he has wasted alot of our recent transfer budgets on Bily, and arguably Fellaini to a lesser extent. I think the Yakubu situation is a bit different though because he looked like a very good signing before his bad injury.

I remember Moyes saying not so long ago this is the best Everton squad he's ever had, I don't think so. And also people on here banging on about how this is our best start to a season for years before looking at the fixture list. Hopefully we can start to pick up some results now we've got some difficult fixtures out of the way, and we need a positive line up e.g Drenthe and Vellios to freshen it up.
Michael Kenrick
70   Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:26:28

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Top post, Mr Lamb. But I think you must know we haven't got enough money for Moyes and staff to do this... or their resources aren't good enough, or their players are so poor they are incapable...

And they wonder why the 0.02% call them "apologists"?
Tony J Williams
71   Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:29:50

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You can't have it both ways Michael.

Posters are constantly stating how poor our players are but in their next posts, these same posters are up in arms because we are not beating the Champions of England.

As already stated ages ago, you can't polish a turd. You can put glitter on it but ultimately it is just a turd with glitter on it.
Tom Hughes
72   Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:36:31

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You can't lose several key players without replacing them with similar or better quality and expect to progress.

Arteta and Pienaar were key to us IMO. Arteta might not have been at his best in the last year or so but he and Pienaar were like the glue in our side. They held it together and could keep possession and move with the ball at their feet. Few in the current squad can match this nor the relationship Pienaar had on the left with Baines. While I think almost any individual player is replaceable, their inter-relationships can be less transferrable. I think this year's departures represent too big a loss.

Yes, Moyes has made mistakes and plays a rather dull percentage game.... that is further exposed when the quality of player is reduced so dramatically. If some of that quality could've been kept and added to, that percentage game combined with quality penetration via good strikers wouldn't have been too far removed from the quality served up by some of the bigger-hitters.

None of them are Barcelona quality, but they have enough to beat the underlings more often than not. Everton have peaked under these financial constraints... they simply aren't quite good enough! Drenthe and Vellios may blossom and fill the gaps.... we'll see!
John Ford
73   Posted 01/11/2011 at 13:55:55

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Excellent post Tom. I think you've basically nailed our current plight.

Moyes is fairly conservative but with good results overall, as you say this has been thanks to good quality players mainly in key midfield positions. So many teams fail miserably with two attackers and too open a style.

However Moyes favoured set up has been exposed this season because of a disctinct lack of quality.At least he's gone to plan B and attacked more recently, even when keeping his numbers in midfield. Having Osman Drenthe and Coleman gives us some options (Osmans form !!!) .

Our new signings and youngsters are a venture into the unknown, forced through us not having a pot to piss in. Still its at least interesting to see how the newbies go on.

Michael Kenrick
74   Posted 01/11/2011 at 14:20:36

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Tony, does Anthony make valid points? Isn't it reasonable to wonder what the hell they do all week? Or is he talking crap?

You always make out that Moyes is never at fault but his players are not good enough so presumably you are resigned to watching what Anthony describes and have no concerns about your Everton playing like that?
Dave Wilson
75   Posted 01/11/2011 at 14:08:20

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"A key issue for me is the almost complete lack of eveidence that these players actually DO anything in training"

Err . . are we talking about the same team here ? Is this the team where the manager has taken players from lower leagues and transfomed them into perminant premieship players ? where people like Leon Osman and Tony Hibbert - who we are constantly told are not prem class - not only play in the prem, but have qualified for Europe more times than any other Everton players.

The team that took a "decent"Leighton Baines and turned him into the best Left back the Prem has seen for years ?

A team that took an injury prone Jolean lescot and turned him into one of the most expensive defenders this country - the world - has produced ?

Moyes is reknowned throughout the game for getting performances out of players most people didnt think they were capable of. When he took a limited jack of all trades Jagielka from Sheffield and turned him into an England center half everyone else praised him for doing such a marvellous job . . but you want to berate him because he failed to turn him into Franz fucken Beckenbauer. . .absolutely priceless.

Moyes can and does improve players, his teams are invariably better than the sum of its parts, but you cant put talent there if it aint God given. Those who fail to understand that simple fact will forever be dsicontented, they`ll also forever be in the 0.02%.

Graham Brandwood
76   Posted 01/11/2011 at 14:49:59

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It was Moyes fault that Yakubu, the 20 league goal striker, ruptured his achilies. The Toffeemoaners usually select only the evidence to fit their argument, now they are inventing it. You truly are becomming the Evertons very own millitant tendency, completly out of touch with the opinions of other managers, media, other teams supporters, and most important still the vast majority of Evertonians.
Trevor Mackie
77   Posted 01/11/2011 at 15:19:20

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Dave Wilson

Apologies, I could have sworn you'd done one of your rants against the BU.

I'm not perusing all of TW on this so I'll take your word.

Never let it be said.......etc etc.

Tony J Williams
78   Posted 01/11/2011 at 16:01:11

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"You always make out that Moyes is never at fault but his players are not good enough"

No I don't, I blame both Moyes and the players, unlike the Anti Moyes bunch who consider everything that goes wrong Moyes's fault and forgive the players all their wrongdoings....unless it is Hibbert, Bily or Osman.

"so presumably you are resigned to watching what Anthony describes" - Yep! I am, because me bitching about it on an internet forum will not make Stracq any less of a ten bob head or Osman any taller.

"and have no concerns about your Everton playing like that?", so because I refuse to blame Moyes solely for the position we find our team (the clue here is team, not individual) in, that equates to no concerns? that's the problem with the anti Moyes bunch, they presume what others, who don't feel the exact way as them, feel or want.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have plenty of concerns about Everton at the moment, they are spread around to cover the players, Moyes and the whole board....not just directing my frustration at Moyes alone.
Anthony Lamb
79   Posted 01/11/2011 at 19:11:47

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Dave (75) I think you take me to task a little too readily! I am by no means a "player basher" or "manager basher". There is much about Mr Moyes I have admired as is also the case with the player examples I mentioned in my earlier post. I was simply focussing on a concern that I feel transcends issues such as ownership, available monies, Goodison issues etc.

Of course players such as Hibbert etc actually PLAY in the Premier League and I for one would acknowledge his defensive attributes. What I am questioning is how players such as he can perform in the Premier League for well nigh on ten years and show absolutely NO signs of developing technical skills relevant to his development as a footballer.

I think you may be falling victim to the hype that surrounds the Premier League when you talk of them being accused by others of not being of Premier League class... What is this "Premier League class"? ? is it universal? Applicable to all? There are many many mediocre footballers in the Premier League. Do not mistake obscene remuneration with worth or brilliant marketing as unquestioned quality product!

I am old enough to have actually seen Mr Beckenbauer play and naturally I would not expect Tony Hibbert or Jagielka to reach his illustrious levels ? he was of a completely different talent. What I am referring to are the BASICS that one should expect players to develop if they are in any way to be termed "professional".

Of course Jagielka has forced his way into the England set up and I admire his often last ditch defensive capabilities but would we say he is a FRONT LINE candidate for such a berth in the England team? Would he be the first choice against Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina etc in a major championship or vital fixture?

And does it say something about the calibre of player called up to the cream of the English game at present? How can a Premier League/International player be so UNCOMFORTABLE when in possession of the tool of his trade??

You refer to Leighton Baines. His technical ability has ALWAYS been there ? people who watched Wigan regularly had long admired his abilities before he came to Everton. Eventually cementing his place has allowed him to apply and develop those natural skills regularly. (But even he can be admonished for at times not developing the defensive side of his game to the same degree and which may be a professional task in hand for him to address?)

As you know, Joleon Lescott was recognised as a great prospect at Wolves prior to his injury. Mr Moyes deserves great credit for taking a risk in signing him after such a long absence from the game and then making him a key member of the first-team squad. (But who would say with certainty that centre-back or full-back was his natural home?)

You also say that Hibbert, Osman etc have "qualified for Europe more times than any other Everton player". I am not sure what you may be asserting there. They have certainly played more club European games than eg Alex Parker, Tommy Wright, Ray Wilson,Jimmy Gabriel, Ball, Harvey, Kendall etc etc - are they in the same pantheon as these guys? Even in the second tier European competition I think you would agree that technical deficiencies of individuals and teams (lack of comfort on the ball, aimless long balls etc) are meat and drink to any team raising themselves above the mediocre average?

I totally agree with you and others that you cannot put talent there when it does not exist ? that is pretty obvious in any walk of life. But that is not what I was bemoaning. It is simply my being baffled at how guys tread water in the mastering of BASIC TECHNIQUES of a professional footballer and show so little signs of improvement over many years, thus failing to develop their abilities and thus unable to more fully contribute to the development of the team.

I am left with the simple conclusion that they and their masters do not work themselves hard enough. It pains me to say it but Kevin Keegan may be a good example for these guys to follow ? generally acknowledged by many in the game as being not especially gifted (à la Beckenbauer) but who worked his socks off throughout his career to perform effectively at the highest levels of club and country and I think became European Footballer of the Year?
Ciarán McGlone
80   Posted 01/11/2011 at 20:34:21

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Mr Wilson. Are you still of the opinion that we will finish top four? If not, do you attach any blame to Moyes for making you look foolish? Ever heard of a 'double bind'?
Robbie Shields
81   Posted 02/11/2011 at 03:05:50

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Mr Wilson, if it is indeed true that you suggested we would finish in the top four this year then I may have to use one of your more eloquent phrases right back at ya:

"You lost all your credability on this site when you came up with that one."

Moyes Out.

I am the 0.02%.
Dave Wilson
82   Posted 02/11/2011 at 05:17:14

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Anthony Lamb.

I find myself agree with much of what you say,

My dad used to say, he only watched professional football to see players do things with a ball he couldn't.
You are right, we have several players who dont/cant do that.
I think most of us - given the required fitness levels - believe we could tackle better than Fellaini, head a ball better than Hibbert and pass better than Phil Neville..
The term "prem class" is, as you say kinda meaningless, however I think these guys have other attributes that enable them to make a living in the top flight. I think Moyes`s strength is getting people to play to their strengths - however limited they may be.

All our players have one thing in common - They are/where affordable . . and lets be honest, in several cases no other prem club would want them.

Surely the evidence you want to see of Moyese`s training sessions is clear by virtue of the fact that they are even on the pitch ?

My only real disagreement with you is that you expect to see improvement in all of our players. Given the very obvious limitations of some of our players I think the fact that they are playing in the top flight means they have already made all the improvements they are likely to make.
Barkley and Rodwell will improve. But Hibbert will not become Dave Thomas, Jagielka will not become Beckenbauer and Fellaini will never start doing those wonderfully clean tackles Martin Dobson used to do.

Thanks for your response, you obviously put a little thought into it and you have most definitely raised the bar on this thread .


Wrong - surprise, surprise.

I didnt say we would finish fourth, I said we had a chance and thats what we should be aiming for. . . However.
I DID predict that we would improve on last season - accumulate more points - and I will stick with that prediction if its ok with you

Unlike you I dont feel compelled to blame Moyes for everything. If I`m wrong Davey Moyes wouldn't have made me look foolish . .I`da done that meself.

Ciarán McGlone
83   Posted 02/11/2011 at 16:02:17

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Right back at ya Dave - I didn't say you said we'd finish fourth.

You were however suggesting that we had a very good chance of finishing in the top four (in fact I think you called everyone who didn't agree with you 'cowards' for not making a similar prediciton). Nice to see you revised your predictions though... no doubt we should expect another revision once the arse falls out of your latest "sure thing"...

By the way, It doesn't help your argument whenever you are clearly fabricating the position of others... I have never been "compelled to blame Moyes for everything". You know that, and are therefore being disingenuous. Making stuff up does not represent a coherent argument in favour of Moyes.

However, it's nice to see you hold no grudge against Moyes or his tactics for the latest downgrading of your season prediction.
Dave Wilson
84   Posted 03/11/2011 at 17:17:37

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My season prediction is exactly the same now as it was before a ball was kicked.

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