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Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

A Good Manager Gone Wrong

 89 Comments: First  |  Last

I've never been a great fan of David Moyes but to suggest he has been anything other than a benefit to Everton is plain wrong. He took us from the doldrums of Walter Smith and gave us back some pride and has undeniably taken us from relegation fodder to a well respected top six outfit.

I will now dispense with the plaudits and offer an opinion on why David Moyes must be replaced as soon as possible. To me he is a tired and stale manager completely void of ideas and inspiration.

After the Chelsea game, everyone was fuming about Neville coming on at 3-0 down but that was just common sense or damage limitation if you like. The real issue is why changes were not made at half-time when one goal could still have made all the difference.

Seriously, what manager would not change things around at half-time when 2-0 down? It defies belief, it was an act of surrender from a manager with nothing left to offer. Players like Barkley, Vellios and Drenthe who look keen, eager and hungry are constantly overlooked when we are cryng out for some urgency, some pace, some will to win.

I can only conclude that David Moyes is a beaten man, his interviews reek of defeatism, every word out of his mouth confirms that we have no money and that we can't compete and it's not fair. Christ knows what his team talks are like, I shudder to think.

I'm sure the replies will ask who could possibly replace him? Well for me its quite simple, all over Europe in various leagues there are teams that play attractive attacking football who are not managed by David Moyes. This suggests that, contrary to common belief on this site, that not having David Moyes as your manager is not necessarily a death sentence and that other managers nowhere near as well rewarded as David Moyes can do their job too.

Enough is enough, we are tired, stale and void of belief and positive ideas, we need change desperately. The sooner the better.

Gary Hughes, Liverpool     Posted 21/10/2011 at 01:05:38

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Joe Aylward
1   Posted 21/10/2011 at 07:41:10

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Danny Broderick
2   Posted 21/10/2011 at 07:45:44

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I agree with a lot of what you say. The trouble is,David Moyes has consistently turned bad starts into decent seasons. We could yet turn all of this around & finish in the top 8,based on what he's done before. So I think he deserves the chance to turn this season around,although personally I don't think we'll finish anywhere near the top 8. If we are to change,we should do it in the summer.
Eugene Ruane
3   Posted 21/10/2011 at 08:27:29

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I suppose it IS possible (just) that a couple of results could 'turn things around' but I just can't see it right now, so (unlike Danny) would prefer him gone today and for someone else (almost anyone) to come in just to provide something new and/or fresh.

(nb: I am of course aware that there is NO chance of this happening or of Moyes going anywhere...ever).
Tony Pickering
4   Posted 21/10/2011 at 08:58:34

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Think you're right Gary. Too long in one managerial job easily leads to staleness which cannot help but be communicated to the players.

I think the guy has done a good job, stabilised us well, but am worried that, if he stays (as he certainly will) another group of good players will end up disillusioned and leave as Pienaar, Arteta etc. So fairly soon it'll be Bye to Velios, Fella, Barkley, Rodwell, Coleman, Drenthe and so on. That's without financially-pressured sales.

If he did go I think I would prefer now - because although I reckon Moyes will turn things around to give us a top ten finish it will merely hide the fact that we need a positive manager who believes in attackers actually attacking. Goals win games.
Peter Laing
5   Posted 21/10/2011 at 09:10:17

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How do you compete though with two arms tied behind your back, a net transfer spend that would best be described as neglible at best and working with a Chairman who lives in cloud cuckoo land. I suppose the £3m a year wages would sweeten the situation, however surely Moyes must be as bored as we are with the stagnation that has paralysed the Club.
Vincent Steele
6   Posted 21/10/2011 at 09:21:18

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I haven't lost all faith in Moyes and want him replaced just yet, but he isn't helping himself this season with stupid decisions and terrible tactics. I was Just looking back over the last 4 seasons and comparing them to this one we have made our worst start yet with 7pts for 7 games.

In 07/08 after 7 games we had 10pts, 08/09=8pts.
10/11= 8pts.
After 10 games we had 13,12,12 and 13 respectively.

With our next game being Fulham away a place where we have only won once and drawn once in 12 games and then hosting United a week later with Newcastle away to follow (a team we have done poorly against recently). It's not looking good.

My question is how long do we keep saying Moyes is the man for the job? Lose them 3 games (which realistically we could) and we are 5-6 pts down after 10 games than we were in the prior 5 seasons.

To me that's not good enough. At 24 my first season I fully remember was 93-94 and apart from the FA Cup 95 and the 95/96 season it's been poor. Whilst Moyes was the man to give me a glimpse of what success could be like and gave hope to a mere boy of 14-15 that things aren?t always going to be shit. (Examples being the 04/05 season, the league cup semi and the FA Cup final with a few excursions in Europe.) I feel if performances don?t pick up we could find ourselves beginning to struggle this season and not really recover sufficiently.

How long can we accept these poor starts to the season? What happens if, for some reason Moyes can't turn it around as has happened in the past? Is this the best I and many supporters of my age and younger have to look forward to? I've been eternally optimistic always hoping for Europe or better, but my support is seriously beginning to waver and I for one am concerned.
Richard Parker
7   Posted 21/10/2011 at 09:21:56

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If I was Moyes, I'd walk and I think he will once this contract is up. I can't see him signing a new one in the current situation. I know I wouldn't hang around in a job where I could see the company going down the shitter quicker than you can say "McFadden - what the fuck?"

I don't believe for a second that we'll bring in a better manager than Moyes, when he finally does leave, not unless something changes at the top level. He's not without fault, but he's done a great job at Everton when all said and done. Having said that, he could have done better and I remain convinced that he will be successful, although it looks more and more like that will be elsewhere.

Moyes, whilst frustrating, isn't the problem, the anti-business that is Everton FC is the problem. Moyes' stagnation is just a sympton of that problem.
Tony J Williams
8   Posted 21/10/2011 at 09:11:28

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I have suggested many times that I think he should have left ages ago, all the good memories of the European games have been lost due to having to sell off our better players and not replacing them at all.

Bargain basement shopping will eventually leave your side as a bargain basement side.....and that's what is happening now.

Our signings this year have been a misfit who was on strike...on loan, a forward who was rejected by a Championship side.....on loan and a free agent, who was sold years ago because he was gash.

I don't know about you but if I was expected to keep in the higher echelons of the league with turd like that, I would have walked ages ago.
Steve Guy
9   Posted 21/10/2011 at 09:54:20

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Apparently he's got to the point where he's lamenting Vellos scoring v Chelski as "it cost us £100K" presumably referring to the fee structure from signing the lad.

So it's got to the point where his team selections are being dictated by whether an appearance in the first team and / or scoring could mean we have to hand over money to another Club. When we howl as to why Gueye doesn't play, is it because we have to write a cheque to his former club ?

If Moyes looks a haunted man this season it's not hard to see why.

Something will "give" soon. We could well find ourselves in the bottom 3 in a few weeks time and it will be a long haul to get back from there unless the performances of the Team and individuals improve dramatically. The January transfer window then looms with the likelihood that at least one other asset will have to go (Felliani is my bet), or Moyes could simply leave. The lack of support he is receiving from the Board is appalling to behold so who could blame him ?
Ryan Holroyd
10   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:08:16

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I think Moyes should leave and then we can get back to winning the Premier League and Champions League.

Seriously tho, even tho moyes has been terrible this season, he's done a brilliant job for Everton over his tenure.

The main problem we have is that shithouse in the directors box.

Nothing will change until he leaves Goodison Park.

Sadly, i believe it will be Moyes who goes first and the chairman will get away with it.
Trevor Mackie
11   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:30:34

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He's never been anything but ordinary, he had the opportunity with the golden goose of Rooney to do more - he missed it.

To not fight relegation was enough when he began - it still is.
Kunal Desai
12   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:18:31

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The one thing he must do is undo all the good work he has done in recent years, there are certainly some positives in his tenure but what you don't want to be remembered for are less memorable times, perhaps these are not far round the corner. Leave with some pride and dignity with your held head high and not for any other reasons. I'm quite surprised he's still here. I thought he would have walked in the summer, however maybe he is looking to see out his contract and wait for that opportunity at WHL.
There will come a season when we don't turn our second half season around and I think do seriously think this could be the one.

The main goals scored last season were from

Beckford - now gone.
Cahill - Who hasn't scored in over a year.
Saha - More like how minutes he'll get on the pitch than goals.

Oh and how many did Baines assist in?

Top 8? looking unlikely, but from the usual top 6 teams downwards its much of a muchness.
Domino Darkley
13   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:24:26

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The more excuses that are made for Moyes the worse the problem will become.

To suggest that one of his problems is that he can't play players in case they score and their former club gets a hundred grand is just pure idiocy.

Moyes may not be responsible for the debacle that is the financial side of things, but it is Moyes and Moyes alone who sets the team up at the start of each game.

And in that department he is woeful right now.

It is Moyes and Moyes alone who makes the substituitions.

I genuinely fear relegation this season....but if we were to go down I would expect, nay demand as a season ticket holder, that we go down with all guns blazing.

At the moment I feel we are sleepwalking our way toward the bottom three and that, I am aftaid, is due to the manager.

Change the record, some fucking fight.

God knows you afre well enough paid.
Tony J Williams
14   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:41:22

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"The more excuses that are made for Moyes the worse the problem will become.

To suggest that one of his problems is that he can't play players in case they score and their former club gets a hundred grand is just pure idiocy."

About as idiotic as saying ramblings on a website makes the problem worse.

Kevin Tully
15   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:42:54

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Moyes is probably the most cautious manager we have seen at Everton.

There is a myth that surrounds him though, that we would be relegated without him.

Football has changed since the eighties and early nineties. Your wage bill will more or less dictate where you finish in the Premier league. Everton are not paupers in the sense. Please click on the link below - he is average, and he plays percentage football, which bores the tits off me most weeks.
Mike Elbey
16   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:59:38

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Thank you Kevin, I have been saying exactly the same thing on another thread.

Where you finish should bear some reflection of the wages we pay and we are certiainly in the top 10 in the premier league on that score.

Most people respect Moyes for what he has done at Everton and he should be applauded for turning a squad that was worth fuck all into one that is worth a lot of money with a net spend of next to nothing.

However, I am talking about the here and now and what is being produced on the pitch is just plain boring and totally un-pleasant to watch. I found myself for the first time ever not watching the last 30 minutes of a televised match involving Everton on Saturday as what was being served up by both the players and the manager was nothing short of pathetic.

Moyes tactics just basically bore the arse of me now. The one thing i was looking forward to this year was seeing Barkley play as he loked bright, young, enthusiastic etc ? all things that could have lifted the fans. But this is not enough for Moyes, because he makes a couple of mistakes he doesn't pick him ? YET Hibbert, Osman and Cahill are allowed to make mistakes and play like shit for game after game and nothing ever happens.

Can Moyes not spot a good player? For Christ's sake, we will probably only keep hold of Barkley for another couple of years ? we should be playing him whilst we have the chance. Thats if he doesnt see sense and refuse to sign the contract on offer in December .....

My message to Moyes is simple ? cheer up, start to look positive, accept what you have to play with and try and play some attacking football. If you are not willing to do this please just GO.
Matt Traynor
17   Posted 21/10/2011 at 11:06:47

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I get the impression that manager and chairman are now so heavily inter-twined that they have a symbiotic relationship. Moyes is his heat shield. If he were to decide to leave (as I don't believe he'd be sacked even if we went down), then any new incumbent would likely struggle, as others have pointed out.

This may then turn the heat onto the board. For all his faults, Moyes has over-achieved in recent years given his resources, and that has probably kept a lot of criticism suppressed, more so than any banning of AGMs would achieve.

Talk is another long term contract is being prepared for the manager, which personally if the club is for sale I think is a dubious situation.

If Moyes has stayed too long, if his star is on the wane, if there are no bigger jobs going to come calling out there, why shouldn't he sign?
James Morgan
18   Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:20:15

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I used to be a fan of Moyes but I'm getting splinters climbing the fence to the other side now.

I appreciate what he has done for the club massively but I think he has become stale now and can't take us any further. He seems unable to really influence the game and take the initiative. We have become so predictable it's getting silly... 4-5-1 EVERY game regardless of opposition does my nut in. I could understand using it in some games away against difficult teams but EVERY game???

We have natural width in Drenthe and Gueye, and Vellios who looks like he would do well given a run in the team yet they find themselves on the bench consistently. Then there is young Barkley who is always looking to go forward and make things happen yet he is back in the reserves. Surely a run in the team would do him no harm - Wilshere seems to have benefitted massively at Arsenal from regular games. And I don't care how old he is by the way, he is good enough that's what matters!

I believe if we finish out of the top 10 this year he should perhaps consider his future. The "we've got no money" line is getting tiresome, it's defeatist and frankly boring to hear.
Tony J Williams
19   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:34:51

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"Where you finish should bear some reflection of the wages we pay and we are certiainly in the top 10 in the premier league on that score"

Arsenal pay less wages than us, Arteta took a pay cut to go there so how does that work in with your theory?
Ryan Holroyd
20   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:50:20

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'Arsenal pay less wages than us'


John Barnes
21   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:33:29

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Ryan Holroyd
22   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:51:07

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Wage bill for the 2009-10 league season

Chelsea - £174m (£167m)
Man City - £133m (£83m)
Man Utd - £132m (£123m)
Liverpool - £121m (£107m)
Arsenal - £111m (£104m)

We pay around £56m on our wage bill so how do we pay more wages than Arsenal??

I also doubt our wage bill will be in the top 10 this season after the cost cutting exercise we have endured this past year.
Kevin Tully
23   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:56:38

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Arsenal's latest accounts show a wage bill of £124M for 2010-11.

Our latest accounts show wage bill of £54.3M
Chris Butler
24   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:56:50

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The age old money excuse when talking about Moyes. Moyes has continually wasted money when he's been giving large sums of it. Cahill, Baines, Lescott, Jags, Pienaar, Arteta and Donovan were all great signings. But then you look at the likes of Billy, Felaini, AJ and the Yak. All were brought in for large fees all have been pretty poor signings.

While I agree Felaini is a good player I think it was a huge amount of money for a defensive midfielder. He is just not accustomed to having any money so when he spends it, he wastes it. All these excuses are waring thin it was his decision to sell Beckford, Lescott and Pienaar.

Holloway did the best he could at Blackppol he only struggled because their team was awful. I doubt even Shankly could save Blackpool. I think he's an obstacle in the sale of our club as I wouldn't trust Moyes with 100 million pounds of my money.
Ryan Holroyd
25   Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:11:40

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Thanks for checking that Kevin.

How anyone can say Arsenal pay less than Everton is rather very very silly.

You can also bet our wage bill will have fallen this year.
Dave Brooks
26   Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:11:12

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Kevin and Ryan make good points re the wages, although 'our' figures in Ryan's post are, I believe, from 2010 while Arsenal's are from 2011.

Tony J Williams - the point, as I understand it - about Arsenal's wage bill is how it is structured. Arteta may have taken a wage cut to move, but Arsenal's global player wage bill is - as these two gents point out - around double Everton's.
John Ford
27   Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:45:23

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By any reasonable assessment Moyes has done a good job at Everton. The context for him having led us is something no Everton manager has ever had to put up with. It's preposterous. With enough money, you win trophies ? it's as simple as that, yet Moyes continues to achieve good returns in the league.

Moyes isn't responsible for our failure to replace ageing and sold players. However that doesn't exclude him from responsibility for recent poor performance. His tried and successful 4-5-1 isn't working because he hasn't got the players to carry it through now. If he doesn't change, he will heap criticism on himself, even though the change has been forced on him.

Let's be honest, he's kind of in a no-lose position. If he uses our cheapo signings and the youngsters in a new approach, he would have the support of the fans who would also understand that he has been forced into this.

If a change isn't successful it will be further proof that our squad just isn't good enough. Something many of us believe to be the case. Kenwright will then have to stop relying on Moyes to bail him out and cough up, or of course ? go!
John Ford
28   Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:20:44

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Forgot to say Gary Hughes ? good post. I also agree that there are managers to replace Moyes but im nowhere near the stage where I believe that will be necessary. I strongly believe Moyes will change things over the coming weeks, players approach etc. I'm not so concerned over the outcome of this because I don't think any 11 we put out will be good enough. We're just not strong enough now, caused by total lack of investment.

I just want to prove to Kenwright that the problem is firmly with him, and force him to do something.
Eugene Ruane
29   Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:34:47

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Of course money plays a part, but it's also worth considering Villarreal's wage-bill will be around 20 mill less than ours.

(estimated they'll pay between 36-37 this season).

Moyes (imo) needs to stop talking about the money others pay/have.

Steven Scaffardi
30   Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:58:28

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I am the first to admit that it is a very frustrating time being an Everton fan at the moment, but when these conversations of sacking Moyes come up time and time again, no-one ever seems to flag up the fact that a new manager would want to rebuild and mould the team in his own vision.

We have no money! So that rules out the majority of top managers. So we get an untested manager in, or someone who has not done a very good job elsewhere and is therefore unemployed, and he can only work with the squad Moyes has built because he can't bring his own players in.

What happens if it all goes wrong or doesn't work out? What happens if this new manager plays Blackpool gung-ho football some of your crave and we are always on the end of a 4-3 defeat? What happens when we can't afford to pay off that manager because we have already paid Moyes off and simply don't have the money to get rid of the new manager?

So we are now stuck with a manager who "has a go" but takes us down and puts us in even more financial trouble. I have posted on here before that the bottom line is that we are a top 8 club at best. The main reason for that is lack of money ? plain and simple.

Think about it ? would Tony Pulis come to Everton when he can spend money and strengthen his team at Stoke? Stoke FFS! It pains me to say that, but that is the situation we are in. It's not pretty, I don't like it one bit, and it makes me love football a little less every season. But we probably have the best manager in the UK at working on a shoe-string budget.

Until we get investment I would much rather have Moyes in charge, confident in the fact that not only will he keep us in this league, but we will probably finish in a respectable league position (again!), he will have players who want to play for him, and we will live to fight another day until we get that long overdue investment that all loyal Blues fans deserve!!

Rant over :)
Jimmy Kelly
31   Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:14:48

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Yes Eugene, that would be the Villarreal who have lost 6 and drawn 4 of their 12 games so far this season.

There's your example fellas, let's follow it.
Anthony Hughes
32   Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:34:05

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That sums us up Jimmy, we couldn't get the ball off them when they came here in the summer.
Chris Keher
33   Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:52:04

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I just can't get over the stick Moyse gets on this site.

If he left we would be relegated within a couple of seasons.

He is the best thing to happen to Everton in the last decade.and there is more often than not not even a a hint of gratitude.

If he leaves he is disloyal, if he stays he lacks ambition. He gets paid the going rate (arguably less than the going rate) for a manager of his caliber and he he gets slated for it.

He has got close to making us a genuine force against all the odds but couldn't get the elusive 1 or 2 top class strikers that could have had us knocking on the door of the top 3 or 4. Half the league spends a fortune, he spends nothing and we still expect the heights of yesteryear or even the heights of his tenure.

I think he should leave, if only to teach the delusional Evertonians a lesson.
Tony J Williams
34   Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:13:50

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What's the squad size of Arsenal compared to Everton? How many first teamers do they have on their books compared to our schookids and bitpart low salary players?
Kevin Gillen
35   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:24:02

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Sorry don't agree. If we get rid of the manager we will go down. Who would take the Everton job? A new manager coming in needs time and money to invest. They would get neither. Moyes is again doing very well within the ridiculous limitations imposed by the unsatisfactory stewardship of Kenwright et al.
Dave Brooks
36   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:44:10

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Looks like Arsenal have a 22 man squad Tony.
Richard Reeves
37   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:36:43

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100%Agree with this article.
Eugene,I would like him gone now for the same reasons but also because, if he does turn it around our own fans will be hailing him a miracle worker again which in turn will probably result in another 5 years of shite.
Brian Keating
38   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:47:58

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I'm sick of people say that lack of money is an excuse, it's not an excuse it's a pretty fucking good reason why we're not doing better.

When Moyes did have a few quid to spend we finished top 6 in 3 years running. You can't argue with that. Unfortunatly the money needed to solidify that top 6 place needed to be multiplied x3-4 to get us into the top 4 regularly.

Moyes didn't waste money on Andrew Johnson by the way, he sold him for a profit. The Yak did his achillies. Fellaini is still playing well for us. Bily, could well be a waste of a money in fairness.
Ian Tunstead
39   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:54:06

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Be carefull what you wish for, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.... etc etc.
Paul Burns
40   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:59:16

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Moyes is a loser who can't function without his plucky skint underdog tag.
He undermines a century and a quarter of the club's history with this hogwash, that of being paupers among princes.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum is our motto.
The sooner we get back to traditional values and rid of the cancer running and ruining our club, the better.
Ian Tunstead
41   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:07:29

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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum should by Moyes's moto, it sums him up perfectly. He gets the optimum out of his players every season, some how finishing in the top 8 consistantly when we should be struggling nearer the bottom considering he has to use players like Osman Anichebe and a bunch of kids, loans, frees and players from the championship.
Richard Reeves
42   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:52:28

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Some people believe Moyes will walk but it just isn't going to happen.For as much as Kenright is to blame for what is happening to this club it is us fans who are the real reason why Moyes is still here.There's only one way Moyes will walk and thats if we let him know we don't want him anymore,not on websites but in the stadium,whether it is voting with your feet or using your voice.So for that reason I expect to see Moyes for a few more seasons as our own fans seem to be content with mediocrity.
Des Kenny
43   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:11:39

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A simple question:

Will that tosser of a Chairman that we have resign his position if we go down?

Because, believe it or not, it is a possibility.
Richard Reeves
44   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:14:08

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Ian Tunstead#39,Have you got that on a loop?
Stephen Doyle
45   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:15:46

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Ian (41) you've got to be kidding! He does not HAVE to use players like Osman and Anichebe! The likes of Vellios, Drenthe, Barkley and Gueye need to be starting to freshen the team up and provide a bit of pace and attacking impetus, which are chronically lacking at the moment, but Moyes is either too stubborn to change or has simply just given up on trying to achieve a decent league position.
Jimmy Kelly
46   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:27:22

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Eugene Ruane
47   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:57:45

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Jimmy Kelly (30), congratulations, possibly the weakest, worst thought-out response I've ever had on TW (nb: and I've had loads of responses from Dave Wilson!)

You confidently state - "Yes Eugene, that would be the Villareal who have lost 6 and drawn 4 of their 12 games so far this season. There's your example fellas, let's follow it".

Oh touché.

I'm guessing you simply saw Villarreal's league position and thought "Ah, I've GOT him!"

And indeed you did!

But ONLY if (as seems apparent) you believe that we should only talk about a club's potential, based on that club's situation EXACTLY as it is RIGHT this minute (rather like a child might). don't.

Instead we (ie: adults) tend to look at the (at least recent) past, the present and (as much as one can) the future, before giving an opinion (looking at 'the bigger picture' as it is sometimes known).

But you know what, never let it be said, etc.

Let's do it YOUR way.

So using your "I'm only interested in debating using the stats as they stand RIGHT now'' tactic and (as your post implies) given you think my Villarreal example doesn't stand up to scrutiny, please explain Levante's results/position RIGHT NOW (La Liga) on a wage bill of ?200,000 a year (nb: yes that IS thousand and yes that IS euro).

Oh I should add, they're joint top with Barca.

Couple more things.

Anthony Hughes' response (31) also imo shows the 'jumped in far too quick - didn't think it through' nature of your response, as does the fact that the 'awful' Villarreal have won exactly the same amount of games as us.

Looks like we already ARE following their example.

Polfuckintroon sir!
Des Kenny
48   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:17:58

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Several weeks ago there was a walk of disaproval for our Board of Tossers. Suddenly, chief tosser says he is speaking to 2 potential buyers. A certain Mr M Mouse and Mr D Duck.

Then, no more more disaproval, just talk talk talk amongst the disaproving supporters. And Mr Chief tosser thinks, Hey I've got away with it again for a while, whilst the supporters discuss it further.

Serious thought must go into finding our how we get rid of Mr Chief Tosser and his merry band of Wankers.

I can't see beyond the Championship next season and I can't see how we are going to get out of this nose-dive of a season.
Tony J Williams
49   Posted 21/10/2011 at 15:49:26

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I counted 30+ on their official site David, that's just the first teamers, what about the youth?
Jimmy Kelly
50   Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:28:37

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Thankyou Eugene, for putting me in my place.

You appear to have drawn an awful lot of conclusions from my very short post, and then spouted a load of drivel.

Clearly my point was not too ill thought out as it has lead you to seek out another example to prove your point, rather than sticking with the example you had - which i'm sure anybody with any faith in their argument would have done.

You were using Everton RIGHT NOW as your benchmark, so I did the same with Villareal. If you'd asked most fans on the eve of last season if they were happy with how things were going they would have said yes emphatically. I know people who were talking of us having an outside shot at the title. So thats the recent past sorted. Neither you or I know what the future holds for either Everton or Villareal so we can discount that so what exactly was your point if not about where the 2 clubs are at the moment?

I was at the Villareal game, and we couldn't get the ball off them, what's your point? That spanish teams play better football than english teams? Give that man a nobel prize.

Also Villareal have won 2 games out of 12 in all competitions and we've won 4 out of 9 so that point doesn't add up either.

Other than that, you and your 'adult' mates can be really proud of that effort.
Damian Kelly
51   Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:49:52

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There is a fine line between stability and staleness. There are a very few great managers who are able to keep things fresh for a long time and even then they also generally need regular trophies and high salaries to keep the players motivated.

For his first 7-8 years I think that Moyes has been a really good thing for us - gave us hope again. He's now on diminishing returns - understandable given the diminishing investment. He needs a new challenge to fire him up and in the absence of cash I think the squad need a new voice/approach to fire them up. It may go tits up a la Curbishley at Charlton but the alternative I believe is a lingering death (with occasional spasms of recovery)

I suspect the whole thing will resolve itself at the end of the season when the Spurs job comes up. A couple of seasons ago I'd have been gutted if he left for it, now I'll be a bit relieved for us and him
John Ford
52   Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:52:10

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Comparing teams results from other leagues to our own seems to have limited value. Theres a completely different level of funding in the EPL compared to any others.

Likewise as Jimmy rightly says its a different football culture, they generally, sadly, play better football than the english. You're not comparing like with like.

You cannot understate the impact of money on a club at the top flight. The evidence is overwhelming. If you invest sufficient funds you win trophies. Its as simple as that. The rest are left with a few crumbs (namely the odd league cup!)
Eugene Ruane
53   Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:56:54

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Jimmy (48), you say - "Clearly my point was not too ill thought out as it has lead you to seek out another example to prove your point, rather than sticking with the example you had - which i'm sure anybody with any faith in their argument would have done".

Well first of all I didn't have or make 'an argument' - if you read my original post, I simply fed in the Villarreal stats as food for thought for those quoting wage bills higher than ours (me: "It's worth considering" - see, not an argument of any sort)

I DID and DO have 'faith' in the example I chose and it appeared fine for everyone....but you.

That's why I had to give you your own special, easy to grasp kids version.

By the way, you answered NONE of the points raised and specifically WHERE was I using 'right now' as a 'benchmark' (are you Count Arthur Strong?)

As for putting you in your place, no thanks needed.
Trevor Mackie
54   Posted 21/10/2011 at 18:22:53

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I watched us not turn up at Man City then Villareal make them look ordinary, cutting through them with players I've never heard of.

If we're gonna get beat that's the way not surrender before a ball is kicked.

I still don't know who their manager was but judging by what I saw and the simple fact they're in the champions league - I'd have him over Moyes any day - and I don't need any bullshit stats to tell me what a good team looks like.
Andy Crooks
55   Posted 21/10/2011 at 18:52:13

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Steven Scaffardi;

"We have no money! So that rules out the majority of top managers"

It doesn't. We just,at no additional expense, pay them what we pay David Moyes. At something in the region of £3.5 million a year I reckon it is well above what, say,just for example, Paul Lambert earns.

"What happens if it all goes wrong and doesn't work out."

You mean as opposed to now, when it's all going right and is working out.

What happens if this new manager plays Blackpool gung-ho football that some of you crave..."

Who's craving it, Steven?

Here's a thought. What happens if the new manger sets out a side that might win? What if he gives a start to the only player in the team with pace? What if he decides that setting out a negative formation against the likes of Wigan might be a bad idea?

Best of all what if he freshens things up, creates a spark among players and fans, shows imagination, passion and a little bit of arrogance and shows some confidence in his players. Perhaps imbues in them a belief that they have talent and our entitled to be on the same pitch as any team in the Premier League?
Dave Brooks
56   Posted 21/10/2011 at 19:13:55

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Glad to read that you went to their site, Tony.

I also counted around 30 on Everton's site, but that's not the squad. Search under Arsenal squad 2011 and it will take you to a link on the Arsenal website which gives you their official Premier League squad. 30 is, as I understand, against regulations.

As for non-Premier League employees, I don't know. But the numbers are, it seems, 'out there'.

Take a look.
Robbie Muldoon
57   Posted 21/10/2011 at 19:25:12

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If you have ever asked, who would replace him? Then you are a wanker.
Steven Scaffardi
58   Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:00:50

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Andy #53 - if you sack Moyes you have to pay him compensation. We already know we have no money! And what top manager would want to walk into a club where he has no money to spend to build his squad?

My comment about Blackpool is that fans always write on here about playing attacking football. The type of attacking football Martinez plays at Wigan, and loses more games than we do? The type of passion Ian Holloway displayed at Blackpool, and went down as a result?

I think sometimes fans need to be realistic, and that is not me being a defeatist. I would like nothing more than to play exciting football, but you need the players to do that! Christ, look how negative Man City were last season, but they had to be that way because they needed to make a few more signings before playing the exciting football they are this season - and that is after about £400m worth of spending!
Jimmy Kelly
59   Posted 21/10/2011 at 19:59:23

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And all I did, Eugene, was point out Villarreal's current record, I don't see what's so weak about that. The reason I did that was simply to point out that their lower wage bill may be catching up with them, as it did with us. I believe that's a valid point.

By answering 'none of the points raised' I assume you mean the one point raised, about Levante's league position? Obviously I can't answer why Levante are top of the league, I hope they stay there though. Of course it's always possible that they will slide down to 14th where they finished last year and the point about how much you spend having an impact on where you finish will be proved right rather than wrong.
Ian Tunstead
60   Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:24:53

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Robbie there are two types of men in this world, there are wankers and there are liers. But I would rather be a wanker than a lier. But you would have to be an idiot and a lier if the first question you ask isn't who would replace him, maybe we should just take the first bloke that turns up at the door.
Peter Laing
61   Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:47:11

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I can see the logic in David Moyes detractors as some of his tactics and team selections have been woeful. However without the financial support needed not just to compete but to just stand still in the premier league how can he do any better? Dalglish has had more to spend in less than 12 months than Moyes has had in 10 years.

I honestly believe that it would take a foreign coach akin to a genius with a completely new strategy such as the that produced by Mourihno in his early managerial career to turn the ship around for Everton. In my opinion, the Club will never be able to compete without the regime change and root and branch shake-up that is needed.
Anthony Flack
62   Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:53:37

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Far too often organisations fire the incumbent then think oh shit what next... my easily challenged view is that there is more positives about Mr Moyes than negatives, quite a lot more. I think a thread about how good Moyes is would be intersting, but on balance I am unsure how it would be received.

It is always more likely in media like this to find challenge and complaint rather than praise and real alternatives. I have to admit though that I think the current team selection is based on how good players have been in the past and not how they are playing now. I would find ways of playing Heitinga, Vellios, Barkley, Gueye and Drenthe ? but not all at once.
Gavin Ramejkis
63   Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:50:41

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Steven Scaffardi you conveniently fail to take into account the respective squads of Wigan and Blackpool, the latter had such piss poor defence which was the crux of their downfall and not their attacking line. Watch any replays from last season to see their back four disjointed and literally all over the pitch.

Likewise the Wigan squad which had much poorer players on paper than the Everton squad yet gavce us a good hiding in the game against them and were unlucky not to win it. Who is to say a more adventurous manager with the squad of players on Everton's books may not be able to play much more blended football (attacking and defending) to suit each game rather than a rigid 4-5-1 overly weighted with defensive players with late substitutions often thrown on to recover a game rather than settle it.
Peter Laing
64   Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:16:29

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For the Fulham game Moyes needs to show some bollocks and not go with the favourites that he always seems to select and adopt an attacking approach and mentality and take the game to Fulham. The line-up should include Velios, Barkley and Geuye. Give the three young lads a chance, keeping it tight with Osman etc isnt going to win us the game.
Trevor Mackie
65   Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:15:17

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Ian @ 58

"Robbie there are two types of men in this world, there are wankers and there are liers........ maybe we should just take the first bloke that turns up at the door."

Glad you're catching up Tunners, taking anyone bar Moyes seems a goer the way things are. Not sure about your categories about mankind - where does the Pope fit in?
John Daley
66   Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:57:57

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"I would rather be a wanker than a lier."


Your mate Moyes is rapidly becoming a 'lier' though. As in 'one who lies down'.

Unless you actually meant 'liar'? As in 'teller of lies, deceiver, bull shitter, Bill Kenwright.
Paul Edwards
67   Posted 21/10/2011 at 23:43:01

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I hope David Moyes goes down as a great manager for us.
He turned us from a dead team to a top 6 side.

In the last 2 years though it's so obvious that he is stale and lacks motivation.

Domino Darkley
68   Posted 21/10/2011 at 23:37:20

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There is almost a cult mentality among those who come on here attacking anyone who dares criticise the Moyesiah.

Eugene Ruane
69   Posted 21/10/2011 at 23:06:48

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Ian (60) you say..

"..there are two types of men in this world, there are wankers and there are liers".

Well surely if there are liars and wankers there must be THREE types - lying wankers.

Oh and you also mention idiots, that's four types!

(by the way, you certainly spell liar like a wanker).

Jimmy (59) you say..

"And all I did, Eugene, was point out Villareal's current record, I don't see what's so weak about that. The reason I did that was simply to point out that their lower wage bill may be catching up with them, as it did with us. I believe that's a valid point".

Oh is THAT what you were pointing out?

Well let's compare your initial post to that shall we?

"Yes Eugene, that would be the Villarreal who have lost 6 and drawn 4 of their 12 games so far this season. There's your example fellas, let's follow it".

Not very similar are they, in fact totally different

So it might have been valid if that's what your initial post had said, WASN'T was it.

Instead (as I suggested) you jumped in quick with what you obviously thought was a winning point and are now (very obviously I might add) attempting to cut your (ever increasing) losses.

(but carry on by all means, don't mind me).
Brendan McLaughlin
70   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:01:37

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Domino #68

And a mob mentality amongst those who come on here attacking David Moyes.
Mike Green
71   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:01:13

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Eugene ? there are two colours on a chess board. Black and White. That doesn't mean there's another colour on it called BlackWhite. Not even in La La Ruane Land.
Derek Thomas
72   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:04:44

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Long ago I was told there were 3 types of people, I think he meant in the Speke factory where I was an apprentice, but also covered the general area around.

Whores, Clowns and Comics.

He also told that then 17-year-old knowall, your trouble is you only know what you know.
Trevor Mackie
73   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:11:03

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That would be grey...
Julie Naybour
74   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:19:26

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Chris Keher - thank goodness - one sane, albeit, lone voice. Couldn't agree more. Maybe Moyes's seemingly dejected attitude is because he reads ToffeeWeb!!
David Mathieson
75   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:26:26

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Ian 60 # ?...there are two types of men in this world, there are wankers and there are liers...?
I think you've stumbled across your alter egos; nothing more.
Jimmy Kelly
76   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:12:32

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Eugene, I apologise if I didn't make myself clear in the first post, but I'm certainly not attempting to cut any losses. The first point laid out a fact, I didn't believe that I needed to make it obvious what I was alluding to but clearly for you I did. Perhaps I didn't use enough CAPITALS to EMPHASISE my point.

Also it's 'jumped in quickly' rather than 'quick', if you're going to have the bad manners to take the piss out of Ian's spelling you should really ensure that there aren't glaring grammatical errors in your own post.
David Mathieson
77   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:32:42

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hi 5
Mike Green
78   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:32:06

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Trevor ? there's no grey on a chessboard. That's the point.
Mike Green
79   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:37:27

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.....Eugene Ruane is typing a reply.......
Trevor Mackie
80   Posted 22/10/2011 at 00:52:29

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Doesn't really work though does it?

Not your fault ? the chess stuff is on the money ? it's Tunner's basic premise about mankind being divided into wankers and liars.

Possibly more to it than that.

Mike Green
81   Posted 22/10/2011 at 01:06:56

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Trevor - you are spot on.

......Eugeneruane is typingaresponse........
Ian Tunstead
82   Posted 22/10/2011 at 01:01:27

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Haha, there are some miserable people on this site, you try to lighten the mood but the misrables come out in force, I thought Moyes was supposed to be the miserable one.
Eugene Ruane
83   Posted 22/10/2011 at 10:05:33

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Actually Mike, there are TWO ways of typing 'writing a response'...

Ian, maybe Bluekipper is more your thing?

Very few miserable people, never a dissenting voice, loads of 'COYB!' and plenty of mood-lightening hilarity (they call Chelsea 'Chelski' - GENIUS!)

Just a suggestion like.
Robbie Muldoon
84   Posted 22/10/2011 at 10:11:53

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It is logical to me that any chairman/president of a board etc. should designate a role to scouting for top football managers across all leagues, just as the manager has a scout system to find promising players.

It is undeniable that although the chairman/president is the football manager's boss, the football manager is still the most important and influential figure at the club - in terms of getting results on the pitch. He selects the players and coaches his style of play into them after all.

Take Chelsea in 2008/09 for example, they started with Phil Scolari and they were dog shit. They finished with Gus Hiddink and they were a winning side again. It was the same squad of players, just one man changed and it made all the difference.

So the question should never be who would replace the manager? But why have we got a chairman who has crippled the club to an extent that we are not an attractive proposition to the many managers out there who could get more out of this squad of players a la Scolari/Hiddink example.

Kenwright needs to go first.
Eugene Ruane
85   Posted 22/10/2011 at 10:14:05

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Jimmy (76) - 'GLARING 'grammatical' error'!?

Presumably you never bothered with Irvine Walsh's stuff.

Page 1: "THAT'S WRONG....SO IS THAT...AND THAT..." (continue for entire book).

I would suggest you look up vernacular, but that would involve reading stuff ("'stuff'? It should be 'things' - ANOTHER glaring grammatical error from Ruane!")

The words 'straws' and 'clutching' spring to mind.
Jimmy Kelly
86   Posted 22/10/2011 at 10:46:17

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Eugene, you appear to be rather obsessed with my intelligence levels. As I'm not a child I won't resort to listing my qualifications, job title and salary, but suffice to say I'm more than happy with my intellect.

I must admit I've never read anything by Walsh. Unless you actually mean Irvine Welsh, in which case I have.

Again, I'm not clutching at any straws as I don't need to. Very simply, you put forward Villarreal as an example of what can be achieved with a smaller wage bill than ours and I used their current position to question whether they were the club we should aspire to. I have no personal axe to grind with you, I was questioning the example you used and I stand by it.
Brian Denton
87   Posted 22/10/2011 at 13:33:44

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I think I'm marginally giving this battle of the intellectual Titans to Jimmy, which is a shame as I am a great fan of Eugene's postings. But oh dear Eugene, that typo with Irvine 'Walsh' (and I'm confident that it was a typo rather than ignorance) was a 'gimme' for Jimmy, so to speak.

I look forward to 'The Semiotics of the Street End' Symposium, to be held at The Winslow.....
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
88   Posted 22/10/2011 at 16:36:19

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Okay, I think we will bring the battle of the illitterati to an end... "Villarreal" notwithstanding (note correct spelling).
Eugene Ruane
89   Posted 22/10/2011 at 16:01:17

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Actually Brian and Jimmy, it was NOT a typo and WAS ignorance.

Well..a combination of ignorance and laziness.

It went - "Welsh?...Walsh?....Can't be arsed to google".

A fair cop nevertheless and I hold my hands up on guessing the wrong vowel.

Still as you both knew who I meant, the vernacular point is/was made and (apparently) uncontested (as per) from Jimmy.

Jimmy, you say you don't need to clutch at straws and indeed you don't.

But that is EXACTLY what you did in post 59, in the sentence that began "The reason I did that was simply..."

Sorry but shite!

If that was what you meant, why didn't you say it FIRST time?

I repeat, in your first post, you jumped in the smart-arse, didn't like being picked up on it and have been back-pedaling and trying to murky the water since.

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