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Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag


 145 Comments: First  |  Last

Followed a link if you like on my twitter or twatter account, and someone named Ratan Tata is the Indian interested in buying us.

Probably rubbish... but, if it is true he is potentialy the richest guy on the planet, worth an estimated 70 billion.

Come on, Bill, Indians love train sets as well!
Robert Daniels, liverpool     Posted 27/10/2011 at 22:32:02

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Robert Daniels
1   Posted 27/10/2011 at 23:24:50

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Bit of research done, seems they own the old Ford plant in Halewood, Jaguar is owned by the Tata group...

Right next to Finch Farm!!!!!
Paul Lally
2   Posted 27/10/2011 at 23:24:15

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Initially this appeared as 'Indian consourtium' approaches EFC on the Daisy Cutter website.

They were inundated with EFC fans asking questions so issued an apology for raising hopes but insisted their sources were reliable. Then adding they had been asked by said contacts to stay silent for a while.

Apology -
Plus an update Oct 24th -

Now we see it re-surface from Internet Whisperer.

I would get a tad exited but on Oct 26th in the Express, Kenwright interview by Ian Ridley -

Quote from:
'If Everton do catch the eye of the world, perhaps it will alert a buyer to the potential of a club in need of new impetus. Even if Everton have, ironically, been left behind by the very thing they helped create,(Premiership) be sure that Kenwright and Co will not sell to another Venky?s."

Coincidence? And why the slur on the Venky's? Very wealthy Indian family business with one of the sons a football nut.

A worry because after seeing the extremely positive impact Blackburn had on their recent tour to India, then add in 90 million people live in Delhi alone and it could be what we have been waiting for, with far more potential than Blackburn.

Here's hoping.

Paul Lally
3   Posted 28/10/2011 at 00:33:26

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Also worried that as Phillip Green is a Spurs fan, would he be involved in any takeover ?
He is a ruthless businessman and why would he want to see EFC wealthier than Spurs ?
He could be constantly putting a spanner in the works !
James Flynn
4   Posted 28/10/2011 at 00:53:07

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Fingers crossed:

1. It's true
2. They know what the fuck they're doing. Money's critical for sure. But we still need a management team understands professional sports franchise owning isn't like other businesses.
Ian Tunstead
5   Posted 28/10/2011 at 01:00:55

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I hope its not true to be honest; I would hate to see Everton become another Man City full of mercenaries, while the likes of Rodwell and Barkley fade into the background. Or, even worse, end up in a similar situation to Blackburn.
Phil Bellis
6   Posted 28/10/2011 at 01:10:08

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Sorry, Ian, I would love Everton Football Club to revert to NSNO and the Everton I supported as a boy, the club my dad, grand-dad and great grand-dad supported ? "the history of Everton Football Club is the history of Association Football in Britain"...

Why would we lose our heritage and identity if we had the means to compete? Didn't under "Mr" John, did we? You know what a Bolshie lot we are... Whatever it takes.
James Flynn
7   Posted 28/10/2011 at 01:24:42

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Flynn (3) Update

Fingers and toes crossed. God help me walking to my car.
Steven Pendleton
8   Posted 28/10/2011 at 04:11:00

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Ian #5

What would you like to happen then Ian? What other alternative do you propose to get us out of the shit we're in?
Russell Buckley
9   Posted 28/10/2011 at 05:12:02

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I don't like the Man City model either but like it or not that's modern football.

Even establishing our own world class players costs money.

Some of us sound like we would pefer to be taken over by someone with just enough money. Thats like saying I want to be kind of successful.

Man City will win plenty of trophies as a direct result of their money.

I want to see Everton's name on those cups again. Man City and Chelsea might be buying big name players but I'm guessing their facilities have also improved along with their juniors.
John Keating
10   Posted 28/10/2011 at 06:17:53

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Mentioned in associated thead - Groundhog Day !!
Sean McKenna
11   Posted 28/10/2011 at 07:22:14

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There's another Blue Union protest soon, timing is too errrrr...
Chris Stubbs
12   Posted 28/10/2011 at 07:23:40

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Not sure why we would end up like Blackburn if Tata takes us over. Blackburn has a poor manager and not a great squad of players. When they were taken over, Man City had some good players and also a good manager (who was replaced by a better one). Everton has a strong basis to build on. Blackburn didn't.

I would like us back where we were during the Moores era. This is where we belong. We should not be in our current position of wondering where the next penny is coming from.
Gavin Ramejkis
13   Posted 28/10/2011 at 07:56:53

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I worked alongside TCS (Tata Consultancy Services) when Barclays Bank offshored several business units and processes. They have a substantial amount of wealth in that section alone through offshore IT provision and even had their own jet.

Personally I won't believe any takeover rumours with BK's penchant and form for serial porkies.
Andy Codling
14   Posted 28/10/2011 at 08:34:38

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Were not for sale!!!
Christopher Marston
15   Posted 28/10/2011 at 09:09:28

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Please stop everyone. We will never be sold
Anthony Hughes
16   Posted 28/10/2011 at 10:28:02

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How many times have we been down this road?
Laurie Hartley
17   Posted 28/10/2011 at 10:53:40

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Wouldn't mind beating Man Utd 6-1 this week - errr
Ian Tunstead
18   Posted 28/10/2011 at 11:07:47

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I have always disagreed with the way Chelsea have done things, believing they can buy success and now Man City the same. They are everything that is wrong with football, destroying fair competition for everyone else. I have always said and believed that a football team should try to live within its means, only using money from sponsorship, TV revenue, money from ticket sales at the stadium and money from developing or selling its players. I would feel like a hypocrite watching a side like Man City or Chelsea.

I honestly believe we are doing ok?better than all the sides who don?t spend the big money at least. We have always managed to get by without much money, we can just keep producing Rooney?s, Vaughn?s, Rodwell?s, Baxter?s, Barkley?s and add the Goslings the Guey?s the Coleman?s the Vellios?s and the George Greens.

I am proud of the way we do things at Everton and I wouldn?t want to see that change, it would mean so much more if we could win something doing it the right way.
Andrew Clare
19   Posted 28/10/2011 at 11:29:28

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Alas it seems the only way to be successful in football is to be very rich. If not, you become an 'also ran'. As Evertonians, we are very aware of this having been formerly owned by the richest private person in the UK.

I want to see great football at Goodison again unfortunately the only way that is likely is if we are 'taken over' by billionaires. Everton would be a fantastic purchase for a foreign investor ? we are one of the 'jewels in the crown' of English football, with fantastic support and fantastic history... Forget the old stadium and the debts, people with 'big' money would soon turn this club around.

I don't want to be an 'also ran' ? do you?
Nick Entwistle
20   Posted 28/10/2011 at 11:35:13

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I wouldn't want to go the whole hog and do a Chelsea or City. If we're taken over I'd want Goodison redeveloped in keeping with its traditional styling, debt wiped out and enough for Moyes to be competitive in the transfer market for players who value Everton as a club, not as a pay check.
Tony J Williams
21   Posted 28/10/2011 at 11:49:46

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"I want to see great football at Goodison again " - So do I, but I don't think money will necessarily guarrantee that.

Look at Chelski, especially when they were successful under Maureen, they were shite to watch and they still are.

The only teams that are good to watch are Arsenal, well they used to be and Man City, this year. Last year they were boring to watch.

Man U have a few good days but are usually business like and not "good" to watch.
Jon Ferguson
22   Posted 28/10/2011 at 12:18:05

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I may be wrong but, with the new rules coming into play (living within your means etc), I reckon we would become more attractive to a wealthy owner, investor etc.

In theory, someone cannot come in now, like they did at City and Chelsea, and just splash the cash and buy a whole squad. The rules though allow you to spend as much as you like on the stadium, training facilities and youth development. If these rules are applied, we are a big club with a big history, synonymous with the Premier League, who only need a few quality additions to challenge the top 4.

The main thing holding us back is the stadium but the owner can show us all how fabulously wealthy he is (and that?s what it comes down to with Abramovich and Abu Dhabi) by updating the stadium (my preference) or relocating to a shiny new one.

The rules are theoretical at this stage because it?s hard to see how Uefa / Fifa can really control it. But if they do, and billionaires and consortiums continue to buy clubs, then I would have thought we would look more investable than we are now.
Marcus Kendall
23   Posted 28/10/2011 at 12:20:41

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It's not often I agree with Ian Tunstead but he's spot on regarding wanting Everton to do it the right way and not copying the Chelsea/Man City model.

Soulless success just doesn't do it for me... I mean, take Man City for example; how is that club representing Man City values? The Etihad Stadium? haha! They are representing the UAE and what oil money can do and if that were Everton I wouldn't have affinity towards it because it just wouldn't be the Everton I know and love.

Modern football is shite and if the only way to win is to be a soulless club who are referred to as a 'project' then I think I'll pass on it and vomit.
Tony J Williams
24   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:07:06

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Marcus, if we won the league the way Citteh may do, the Stella wouldn't taste any less sweet and I wouldn't be any less drunk or dancing around naked giving the Vs to my redshite mates.

Yes for a brief second I may think we have bought the league but then I would order another pint and lose one more item of clothing doing my best to lose my voice singing as loud as I could.
Marcus Kendall
25   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:14:30

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That's your prerogative, Tony; I'd've ceased to support Everton by then so I wouldn't be celebrating anything.
Tony J Williams
26   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:20:56

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In the nicest possible way Marcus....bollocks. Are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't celebrate Everton FC winning the league because of some misguided view that it hadn't been won in the "Everton way"?
Kevin Tully
27   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:23:14

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Just a bit of hope would be nice. At the moment, there is none.
Marcus Kendall
28   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:27:58

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Honestly, yes.

Everton winning that way just doesn't interest me in the slightest, it's just so false and soulless.

If it ever did happen, I'm sure Everton wouldn't miss me, what with all the 'new' fans jumping aboard!
Brian Waring
29   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:28:53

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I wonder if any of those Man City fans, even the ones whose thinking was on the same lines as Ian's, would turn back the clock when they were walking out of old Trafford the other week?
Brian Waring
30   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:34:03

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Marcus, were you around supporting the club when we were called the Mersey millionaires?
Marcus Kendall
31   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:35:23

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Brian, I know many Man City fans have turned there back on the club because they couldn't RELATE to how the club is run nowadays, some follow thier morals and some just enjoy the taste of success however it comes along.

My point is simple, I support Everton and if we sold out and started spending zillions on tranfer fees and wages that our club couldn't NATURALLY afford then it would just be false and it would be like supporting a plastic version of Everton where our new stadium would be called something like the Qatari Foundation Stadium and we would forever be referred to as a 'project'

Not to mention the prima donna players who are blatantly playing for us just for the money and who would never touch us with a barge pole if we couldn't give them their £250'00 a week wages.

If that turns you on then go and support if it ever happens but I will follow my principles and support my local side instead (Redditch Utd)
Chris Rudd
32   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:41:00

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It's the hope that kills you Kevin!
Marcus Kendall
33   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:39:45

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No, I started supporting Everton as a kid in the mid-80s

Partly glory hunter and partly coz the manager had the same surname as me.

But I stuck through it, through the horrifc 90s and early 00s and I love Everton for what they are and I don't want them to become another rich person's plaything.
Steven Bennett
34   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:41:10

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Steven Pendleton I agree our players fading behind world class alternatives....... I could live with that.
Nick Entwistle
35   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:41:24

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Its difficult to say exactly how one would feel, but at most it would be more a passing interest to follow a team who no longer needed to compete but just purchase their success.
Richard Dodd
36   Posted 28/10/2011 at 13:41:11

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I am, by nature, a traditionalist and perhaps that is why I continue support our `old style` chairman, Bill Kenwright. However, mention of the Tata empire got me thinking that our pride in the resurgence of the Jaguar Car Company ? as English as it`s possible to be ? is in no way tainted by the knowledge that it`s all been done with an Indian zillionaire`s money!

Certainly my several relatives who work at the plant have no concerns about who saved their company and who pays them.

Indeed, I have little doubt that if the foreign investment in our club was seen to be generous enough to solve our current problems and a proper business plan was seen to be in place,much of the scepticism I and other Evertonians feel would soon melt away. Perhaps we could even be persuaded to bin our toffee papers and embrace the Everton Jaguars!
Mike Gwyer
37   Posted 28/10/2011 at 14:37:25

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Marcus, as per Brian's post #30, Everton were once the buyers of players who sat on the top shelf. Believe me no one stood in our way when a player was targeted - if you supported the blues in the mid eighties then you must recall how we pursued Lineker and Dave Watson. I can assure you that we were not Lineker's first choice - but money talks and Leicester accepted our offer and Lineker accepted the highest weekly wage in the existing "First Divsion".

Nothing has changed that much Marcus. It's just that the weekly wage, for any of the top players, is now far bigger and Everton FC can no longer afford to pay them.
Dave Lynch
38   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:04:04

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Ian @5.
With all due respect mate i couldn't give a flying fuck how you would prefer Everton to be run.
What i do know is this. The current model is shite, my 9 year old manages his piggy bank better that what we have at the moment.
Football has moved on, it's now global and you need big money to compete.
It's the way the money is fitered down to the less fortunate clubs that is the problem.
Bring em on i say !
I can't wait to see Messi's face when Davey boy tells him he's playing at left back and ' Don't dare think of dribbling anyone either'.
Nick Entwistle
39   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:09:17

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Mike, in 1985 when 99% of players being traded were British, we bought the England's best striker. As champions would. But we then didn't go out and buy Platini and Careca and Maradona and Bellanov and Butragueno and Zico and Scifco and Francescoli and Laudrup and Van Basten and Mathaus and Sanchez and Futre on 5x more wages than others could afford.
Dave Charles
40   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:24:13

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If it means anything, Elstone was at the Jaguar plant this morning.
Gerry Quinn
41   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:36:12

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"Elstone was at the Jaguar plant this morning"
Kenwright was also spotted at the "Money Tree"!
Eugene Ruane
42   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:26:01

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Nick (38) spot on.

It's about degrees and scale.

It was the same in the 70's when we were still considered 'millionaires'.

We bought Latchford for what was a record (nb: that was a valuation on two players plus cash) but we didn't buy an ENTIRE side of Latchfords in one go.

Same when we bought Ball, a record signing but we didn't/couldn't get an entire team of £100,000 players which is what Chelsea and City HAVE been able to do.

THAT is the difference and it's a massive difference.

We might have been millionaires, these are billionaires.

Dave Lynch (37) - brilliant and like you I say bring 'em on,

In fact I'll beg - Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease buy us!!!
Lee Courtliff
43   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:32:15

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I don't think anyone would be complaining if we went to Anfield and won 6-1. Even if we did have to follow the model of Man City.

I doubt it will happen though. Too many false dawns to get excited.
John Daley
44   Posted 28/10/2011 at 15:31:35

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"Not to mention the prima donna players who are blatantly playing for us just for the money and who would never touch us with a barge pole if we couldn't give them their £250k a week wages."

So which players are playing for us now purely out of loyalty and the goodness of their hearts? None of them I would say. Football is simply a career/job to a pro and any and all of them would go where either the cash or the medals are likely to come their way. Osman may have come through the ranks and be part of the (tatty old) furniture but, if by some miracle, Mancini decided he wanted the one paced, little lizard looking lad from Skem and was prepared to quadruple his wages and give him the chance to showcase his 'getting shouldered off the ball' skills in the Champions League, then Leon would be off like a shot. Same with Cahill. Same with Howard. Same with Rodwell. Same with any of them.

"But we then didn't go out and buy Platini and Careca and Maradona and Bellanov and Butragueno and Zico and Scifco and Francescoli and Laudrup and Van Basten and Mathaus and Sanchez and Futre "

No, but it would've been fucking awesome if we did. Would beat buying Ian Wilson and Wayne Clarke anyway.
Trevor Mackie
45   Posted 28/10/2011 at 16:11:36

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1- 6 at Anfield.....

Imagine the stands emptying and we're all shouting:

"TA .....TA"
Denis Richardson
46   Posted 28/10/2011 at 16:49:12

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Ian @5,

Regardless of if we are bought by a billionare or not, I don't think we are being run well at all.

Going all the way back to 2004, the Rooney money saved us from a calamity and ever since we have been living on fumes, using increasing amounts of debt to fund operational expenses, nevermind purchasing players.

Will not go into details as its been done many times on TW already, but the business 'model' at the moment relies on hopefully having a decent player to sell every year just to keep the dogs at bay. This is not sustainable and even Kenwrong admits that we will lose around £4-5m every year.

If we can only keep the banks at bay by selling our best players, how is that being well run? It's just a matter of time before the quality of the squad is no longer high enough to avoid relegation. Add to that half our first team will be retired in the next 2-3 years.

How does the above translate into being 'well run'? If there are no significant changes I dread to think where we will be in 3-5 years' time.
Steve Woods
47   Posted 28/10/2011 at 16:26:13

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The Jaguar Stadium has a nice ring to it ...
Brian Denton
48   Posted 28/10/2011 at 17:44:37

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Nick and Eugene, excellent answers to 'Hairshirt Brian' who insists on peddling this line that we were in the sixties what City are today. It's rewriting history and also doing a great disservice to Harry Catterick and our home grown players such as Brian Labone, Joe Royle, Colin Harvey etc.
Kevin Hudson
49   Posted 28/10/2011 at 18:32:43

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I'm gonna stick my neck out here..

It's bollocks.
Ian Edwards
50   Posted 28/10/2011 at 19:11:07

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The daisycutter has in small print at the bottome of their page.... The football paper that honestly lies.

Robert Daniels
51   Posted 28/10/2011 at 19:07:47

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Dave Lynch @ 38,

Well said mate, and it probably is a load of bollocks, but one thing's for sure: it will happen one day, I just hope I get to see it.

Altogether now..... There's nobody better than Mr R Tata,...
Paul Lally
52   Posted 28/10/2011 at 19:52:57

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Ian #50

Read the rest of Daisycutter instead of just looking for what you want to find. All links above. 2 + 2 may equal 5 but at least we have, at the moment, 2 + 2, which is more than we have had before.

Michael Kenrick
53   Posted 28/10/2011 at 20:39:53

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And you're going to believe a Man City fan who's organ happily boasts the publication of "Fake News"???
Kevin Freaney
54   Posted 28/10/2011 at 20:46:12

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Probably been mentioned before but when the Blue Union announced the first protest Bill said we had three buyers lined up.

Now another protest is lined up this gets leaked out.

PR stunt by the club.
Sean Allinson
55   Posted 28/10/2011 at 21:06:55

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'kinell Michael #53. Keep up. Out of touch as usual. Daisy Cutter addressed that tag line two days ago.

The source of the guys information is yet to be verified, but what information he believes he has, is being offered with the best of intentions.
Robin Cannon
56   Posted 28/10/2011 at 21:49:42

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I'm largely with Marcus's earlier comments here.

I want a well run club that's self-sufficient and does things the "right" way. It saddens me that "basic competency" is something that we're forced to be crying out for!

I don't have any problem with a rich investor as such, but I don't want a Chelsea or Manchester City type model. Yes, there have been rich clubs in the past, and we've been one of them, but Manchester City in particular are on a different plane. We're talking about a club that, effectively, has completely unlimited funds. The pre-Arab Manchester City don't really exist any more, they're a vanity project.

Would I be happy if we were that kind of club, went to Anfield and won 6-1? I'm sure I would, but I'm also sure that it wouldn't be the same as watching a successful team that had been built smartly, with some youth products, some unheralded signings to go with a few marquee players.

It's not that I don't want a rich investor. I just think it's more important to me to have a sustainable model that isn't reliant on an individual benefactor. Before last season, it *wouldn't* have taken us that much to push on as we needed. We wanted a couple of good quality signings to keep the momentum from the end of the previous season. The current circumstances meant we lost that opportunity; just as we've done many times under the current administration.
Dick Fearon
57   Posted 28/10/2011 at 22:30:29

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Would that mean ta ta to BK?
Jon Cox
58   Posted 28/10/2011 at 22:33:16

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Looking at this thread, there are two trains of thought. First, the "I've supported Everton for x amount of years and I hate the Chelskis and City prostitutes." Or...

Second, "I love Everton and want loads of money so we can compete."

Hard one to work out which ethos is best and works for me.

On the one hand, I hate the corporate money and mercenary football that is the Premier League, and is personified by the fraudulent Fifa.

But on the other hand, it would be nice to have the finance to build a world beating club that we could ejaculate to week-in, week-out.

So, to me, this as usual is the 50/50 split that we have that is always what we are now having on TW. TW is now morphing into the written version of Radio TalkShite.

That's not a put down of the best website on the planet, it's just the way it's gone over the months and years.

To end all I'll say is that it seems that I've got legs over both sides of the fence. My anatomy is aching like a twat but what I will say is that, since the money men have started this, then we need, as a club, to get on board because, if we don't, then there will never be an equal playing field.

Once all the clubs who reside in the Premier League have this "Money", then we'll start to see the football that we had in the 70s and 80s.

Unless this happens, the Saturdays and Sundays will just revert to an SPL.

Maybe the kids will love it; so will I... as long as we win silverware.

Pissed right off, as it is.
Eugene Ruane
59   Posted 28/10/2011 at 22:50:35

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Dick (57) - Ta ta to Bill? More chance of a DFS sale ending. It'd be easier getting rid of fucking herpes than the human barnacle.
Jon Cox
60   Posted 28/10/2011 at 23:15:04

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Eugene, go to a parents' night, they'll fill you in about STDs ? they're told to by the gubmint!!
Robert Daniels
61   Posted 28/10/2011 at 23:41:24

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Eugene, ha ha...

Human barnacle...

Barnacle Bill...


Sponge Bob... Elstone.... or Earle...?
Robin Cannon
62   Posted 29/10/2011 at 00:26:44

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It's American Football, but god, don't you just wish...?

The Green Bay Packers Have the Best Owners in Football - BusinessWeek
David Barks
63   Posted 29/10/2011 at 00:51:02

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The only reason the Green Bay Packers are able to be successful with the type of ownership they have is because there is a hard salary cap and no guaranteed contracts. The NFL is the most competitive and most successful sports league in the world. They know exactly what they're doing, with any team able to compete as long as they have good management in the front office making the right moves at the right time. Every season more than one team goes from among the worst to the best. At the beginning of every season virtually every set of fans believes their team has a chance to be successful. Finances have nothing to do with it, and I love it.
Kevin Freaney
64   Posted 29/10/2011 at 01:28:04

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The NFL is the way to go. Salary caps, every team gets equal tv payouts and the worst team from the season gets the first draft on college players. Makes a very competitive league. I can sit here and predict the premiership but you can't do that in the NFL.

Wage caps has got to be the way forward, but it has to be through FIFA, worldwide, so players can't turn around and run off to a club not covered by the cap. It'll never happen, which is a massive shame as wages are a joke now. £100,000 to train 4 hours a day and then play 90 minutes on a weekend.
Derek Thomas
65   Posted 29/10/2011 at 02:49:58

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It's 50 years too late to moan about foreign ownership of Briish Institutions, football or business.

As for "it isn't the Everton Way", like the current Everton Way is carrying all before it...

Nobody is too big: Cadbury, Rolls Royce etc.

But I'm sure the players wouldn't mind top-of-the-range Jags alround.

I will take a chance on it if it happens.
Alan Clarke
66   Posted 29/10/2011 at 08:24:19

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It's complete bollox. I can't believe the way so many of you get sucked in time and time again by Uncle Bill's and Ian Ross' bullshit.

We all know we're skint so there's no point in anyone making up crap about us signing players so all we're left with is rumours about takeovers. This one is just in time to coincide with the latest protest. Why is some Man City fan subject to knowledge of a takeover at Everton yet every other investigative journalist not? Why is this only being reported on some shite website that prides itself on made up crap?

Everton will only be sold when Bill absolutely has to i.e. we're in administration or when Bill dies.
Wayne Smyth
67   Posted 29/10/2011 at 08:51:15

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No doubt there will be drip-feeds of this nature throughout the season. I'd not be surprised if it emanated from Kenwright or one of his associates, to be honest. Takes the fans focus away from results on the pitch and whether the club is being mis-managed.

Also stories like this lend credence to Bill's claim that he's looking for investment, without him having to actually do anything concrete to back that statement up.

"Watch this space!"

Really hope I'm wrong though....
Robert Daniels
68   Posted 29/10/2011 at 10:03:45

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Seems it is The Jain Group, who are supposed to be interested in taking over!
Nick Entwistle
69   Posted 29/10/2011 at 11:04:36

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How is the NFL system going to work? Or rather, why would we want it? What would your solution be to the small problem of relegation? And without a collegiate system training the youth how would a draft system work?

You can call it the most successful or competitive sport in the world but there's no building on success, there's no punishment for failure, the opposite in fact. As the system was designed for, teams are just franchises to maximise profit. Has the ring of 'everybody is a winner' that school sports days have over here and is ultimately soulless.
Ian Tunstead
70   Posted 29/10/2011 at 11:18:35

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Denis, I disagree; most teams are in a similar position to Everton and still manage to get by. Perhaps the Rooney money did save us from calamity but it has put us in a much stronger position, it helped decrease the average age of the squad and turned a relegation side into a top 8 side; one great player was used to buy 4 or 5 good players.

When we began to struggle again, we sold Lescott, and used it to buy 3 decent players and now Arteta and Piennar have gone which allows Rodwell, Barkley and Drenthe to stake a claim and make names for themselves.

No doubt we will struggle again and be forced to sell Fellaini and perhaps Barkley at some point but those 2 potentially great players can help us buy another 5 ? 10 good players. That is how football has always worked and how it should be rather than using oil money from outside the game.
Richard Dodd
71   Posted 29/10/2011 at 11:25:47

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I was assured just a few minutes ago that this story is complete bullshit. I`m kinda sorry about that as this one was the first to `light my fire`. A link-up with local business, Jaguar, would have been ideal.
Eugene Ruane
72   Posted 29/10/2011 at 12:54:57

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In Tunstead (69) - you say..

"No doubt we will struggle again and be forced to sell Fellaini and perhaps Barkley at some point but those 2 potentially great players can help us buy another 5 ? 10 good players. That is how football has always worked"

That is how football has ALWAYS worked?

You're like someone who takes a dump on every floor of a multi-story car park - wrong on so many levels.

HOW has football ALWAYS worked like that?

Let me help - it hasn't.

During the 60's, 70's, 80'S etc, it might have been good business for teams from the lower leagues to sell one or two decent players occasionally, to help their club's finances, but no first (ie: PL) division teams were having to CONSISTENTLY sell their best players or go under.

It broke my heart when we sold Alan Ball and we did so only because on paper, it seemed (to The Cat) good business (ie: keep the player 5/6 years or so, then sell him for double what you pay)

However we didn't HAVE to sell him.

Remember, revenue until relatively recently came almost totally from gate receipts, so even Utd (who regularly got 50,000+ in the late 70's) couldn't outspend us (or Liverpool, Spurs, City, Arsenal etc) by much.

This situation we're in (and 90% of the PL clubs) IS something new and absolutely NOT how football has always worked.

We didn't compete well between 70 and 84, but that wasn't anything to do with money or being forced to sell anyone.

Fact is we COULD have done well if we had got things right tactically etc.

Eventually we did and won a title.

100% impossible now.

Until the start of the 'world's greatest league', the majority of teams sold players because they wanted to, now many players are sold (particularly by us) because if they're not, the selling club can/will go under.

THAT is why it is not how it has 'always worked'.

One more thing - selling an 18 year old decreased the average age of the squad?

Oh well I was made up with that, as I'm sure we all were.
Eugene Ruane
73   Posted 29/10/2011 at 13:10:34

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70? It was 69 when I started writing.
Robert Daniels
74   Posted 29/10/2011 at 14:29:41

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How about the Jain group link?
Steve Barr
75   Posted 29/10/2011 at 14:59:24

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Regarding the NFL suggestion.

I don't agree that transporting the system in total is what is being recommended, rather it may be worth considering adopting some of the elements of the system. Such as salary caps, equal share of TV money for example.

Obviously there are ramifications regarding a possible move of players into Europe, if they don't adopt a similar model. However, I seriously fear for the game across the board if the current financial situation continues. Something similar to the recent global financial crisis as a result of sub prime loans!

Also, the collegiate draft element of the NFL system would clearly not work. Even the MLS program in the US accepts that. In fact most MLS teams have now established their own acadamies to develop players from an early age.
Ian Tunstead
76   Posted 29/10/2011 at 21:14:08

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Yes Eugene, selling an 18 year old did eventually decrease the average age of the squad. If you remember the Rooney money was given to us in instalments so over the next 3 or 4 years we were able to replace older players for younger models that were usually better than the players we had previously that we might not have been able to buy without the sale of Rooney.

Eventually Ferguson and Campbell were to be replaced by Bent and Beattie. Radzinsiki was replaced by Andy Johnson, Cahill replacing Linderoth, Arteta replacing Graveson, Piennar repalced kilbane Baines replaced Naysmith and Pistone and Jaggs and Lescott replaced Weir and Stubbs. Howard replaced Martyn. So you do the Maths, did the squad get older or younger?

And yes teams have always sold players to buy new ones only recently teams like Chelsea and Man City havnt had to sell to buy.
Eugene Ruane
77   Posted 29/10/2011 at 22:54:41

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Ian, you force me to ask - are you deliberately missing the point?

You say (as though you're teaching us something) - "And yes teams have always sold players to buy new ones only recently teams like Chelsea and Man City havnt had to sell to buy".

Seriously, are you fucking about or (more worryingly) do you REALLY not get it?

Yes (we fucking know) teams have always sold players to buy players but (READ THE FUCKING POST) as I pointed out, the DIFFERENCE is about HAVING to.

THAT is the difference and if you genuinely can't see it, more to be pitied than scolded.

(nb: what teams have done and what teams have HAD to do - not the same)

"Only recently teams like Chelsea and Man City haven't had to buy to sell"?

Sorry but you're simply making stuff up.

When we bought Latchford, we didn't HAVE to sell to buy, same with Martin Dobson, Alan Ball, etc etc.

Now not only do we HAVE to sell to buy, we have to sell (everyfucking!) to keep the banks away.

It - is - different.

As for your BIIIIIG point re the average age, maybe I SHOULD have been more to the point.

I'll rectify that now.


Seriously, you sound like you'd be made up with an average age of four and a half.

Who gives a fuck!?

"Oh great the average squad age has gone down from 25.9 to 24.7. Sad to see the back of Rooney like but..every cloud'

Like many supporters today, you appear to have bought into the idea that any of that Sky stats shite matters - it doesn't.

Here's a fact that DOES: Whatever our squad's average age, in the 10 years Moyes has been in charge, we've won fuck all.

Geddit? (doubt it!)

Ian Tunstead
78   Posted 29/10/2011 at 23:33:31

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No Eugene you are missing the point, I would not be ?made up with an average age of four and a half? if the team suffered as a result. The fact is the team improved from being relegation fodder to top 4 challenges having sold Rooney on and the value of the side also increased massively.
At least you admit you were wrong and that the average age of the squad was lower after Rooney left us though I suppose, so it?s a start. It was sad to see the back of Rooney but not so sad when we were finishing 4th the next season.

As for my point about having to sell players in order to buy, you say ?Now not only do we HAVE to sell to buy, we have to sell (everyfucking!) to keep the banks away.?

I?m sorry but we didn?t sell Arteta to keep the banks away, Moyes said he sold Arteta partly because Arteta wanted to leave and he felt he owed it to Arteta but ultimately the club comes first and he felt it was the right time and price to sell. The point is, of course, you have to sell to buy, we couldn?t have Arteta on £70k a week with Rodwell and Barkley not getting a look in.

There comes a time to make the decision to move on the older generation for the newer generation. Like Arteta, we didn?t NEED to sell Ball at the time we did... but we would NEED to sell them on in maybe another 2 or 3 years time; it would be at a much lower price but ultimately you do need to sell to buy. Sponsorship, TV revenue etc will only go so far, but even if you have the money to buy a player without selling, players would still have to be sold to make room in the team/squad for the players coming in to take their place further down the line.
Trevor Mackie
79   Posted 30/10/2011 at 00:11:45

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Arteta doesn't agree with ya - see his interview.
Mick Davies
80   Posted 30/10/2011 at 04:55:18

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Ian Tunstead, just retire gracefully. It's become a war of attrition and you've run out of ammunition. Arteta, Beckford and Yakubu weren't sold to enhance the team, they went for a profit: the majority if not all of which will go to the banks.

Clubs like Tranmere have always sold players to survive, but the top division clubs were the ones buying them. We bought Gordon West for a massive, record fee for a goalkeeper and broke the transfer record for other players during the sixties and it made us successful. We didn't sell our best players to get other best players in and your argument about Rooney was ridiculous. He wanted to leave and his agent covertly engineered a move.

The club is totally mismanaged in all departments, the Gosling saga is an example: he was worth a few million yet he went for nothing because our Mickey Mouse management forgot to tie him to a contract.

Yes, I would love to see us successful without the obscene wealth of foreign gobshites with gold plated palaces while their fellow countrymen die in the gutter of starvation but in the real world, it's the only chance we have to regain our true place at the top of the English game.
John Keating
81   Posted 30/10/2011 at 06:22:55

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Ian, let;'s see if Moyes is given the full amount of the Arteta, Yakubu and Beckford money to see if your statements are correct. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt if he's given 75%.
Eugene Ruane
82   Posted 30/10/2011 at 07:52:03

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Ian (78) - all gibberish and guesswork (really, ALL of it) so can't/won't go through it all.

This paragraph stood out though.

"There comes a time to make the decision to move on the older generation for the newer generation. Like Arteta, we didn?t NEED to sell Ball at the time we did... but we would NEED to sell them on in maybe another 2 or 3 years time; it would be at a much lower price but ultimately you do need to sell to buy"

Oh right....'ULTIMATELY'

Ah now I see it, so ultimately, so you WERE right all along.

Ffs - pathetic and (like a kid) obvious you would argue this no matter how much evidence to the contrary you were shown.

My last word (to you) on this is a question.

Can you tell me when Neville and Hibbo will be sold?

You 'we would NEED to sell them on in maybe another 2 or three years' and as 'there comes a time to make the decision to move on the older generation'

Trevor (79) - How DARE you suggest Ian look at the facts rather than sticking with the version he's invented.
Matt Traynor
83   Posted 30/10/2011 at 07:33:37

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Dave Wilson
84   Posted 30/10/2011 at 08:48:30

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"When we bought Latchford, we didn't have to sell." ? No, we just had to give Birmingham two players, one of them was our best player and after being Birmingham's best player, he was was still good enough to play for us when he returned years later.

Sir John Moores may not have insisted Ball had to go but he would have insisted that the books were balanced. Catterick ? wrongly in most peoples view ? decided the easiest way to do that was unload Bally.

You're wrong, Ian, lad, clubs have never had the need to ballance the books ? they merely choose too ? and there wasn't really any need to bring down the avarage age of a squad that contained people like Martin, Carsley, Weir, Stubbs... they were probably good for another decade.

Check out THE "Arteta interview" Ian... it`ll all become very clear to you.
Ian Tunstead
85   Posted 30/10/2011 at 10:41:30

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Trevor I saw the interview with Arteta and yes his broken English came across like he was saying he had to leave for the sake of the club,but he would say that so the fans didn?t think he was leaving for selfish reasons. Maybe he did actually believe it but It matters more what Moyes thinks because he is paid to manage, Arteta is only paid to play and so probably doesn?t know all of the facts.

John I think the reason we sold Arteta and Yakubu was more to do with wages and the fact that they were not performing to the level expected. Moyes also knew we had Vellios, Gueye Barkley and Rodwell ready to step up, not because we needed to sell them to keep the banks happy.

Eugene, Moyes has stated that Hibbert and Osman will always be here? probably because no one else would want them. I imagine they will be happy to sit on the bench towards the end of their career and play a small part when needed, like G Neville, Giggs and Scholes rather than players like Butt, Brown, Oshea and P Neville who probably wanted more guarantee of involvement in the first team. Moyes also said something along the lines that he wants Neville to take on a coaching role at some point, so I cant see him being sold either.
?Ffs - pathetic and (like a kid) obvious you would argue this no matter how much evidence to the contrary you were shown.?

It takes two to tango Eugene, you are as bad as me you hypocrite, you always want the last say on toffeeweb ;-)
Gavin Ramejkis
86   Posted 30/10/2011 at 11:42:26

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Ian, two minor points your "top four challenges" only really happened once ? singular ? that Moyes got to the CL qualifiers and, to be brutally honest, it was a shite league that season with the RS's results going in our favour.

Secondly, if you truly believe the whole "Arteta wasn't for the sake of the banks and for rebuilding" then I'll advise you not to hold your breath waiting for a £10m marquee signing in January because it's never coming; the money has long gone the same way the Bellefield, Pienaar, Beckford, Vaughan and Yakubu money has.
Ian Tunstead
87   Posted 30/10/2011 at 13:22:39

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Gavin, for your first point; so when we were finishing 5th and 6th the other 3 or 4 times we wernt challanging for the CL places? Just because we didn't make it doesnt mean we wern't challanging.

Secondly, I doubt Moyes will go out in January and buy a marquee signing because prices of players tend to be distorted so he will probably wait till the start of next season. If he does buy in January it will probably be one or two cheap signings or loans. But I doubt even that will happen.

I don't think we need to buy anyone desperately when we have people like Gueye, Barkley and Vellios still waiting to get a propper run out. If they don't prove themselves to be good enough this season, then Moyes will probably go and make some signing next season, especially if he decides to sell Fellaini or Barkley.
John Keating
88   Posted 30/10/2011 at 13:26:42

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Ian, I have no problem with your reply regarding Arteta, Beckford and Yakubu. Maybe you are right, maybe selling them was purely a football decision by the manager and the bank/money situation had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I'm sure you will agree that we desperately need to buy in the transfer window. So, if your argument is correct, I expect to see the manager being given, if not all, then at least 75% of the money generated by the sale of the above. Therefore, as previously said let's wait and see.

If Moyes is given those funds. I will certainly state that I had my eyes wiped. I would also like to think that, if he isn't, you will be the first on here to express your displeasure.
Phil Bellis
89   Posted 30/10/2011 at 13:55:45

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The Crickets - UK No.1 - 1 November 1957
David Mathieson
90   Posted 30/10/2011 at 14:25:32

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Yakubu has got 4 goals this season which is twice as many as any of our strikers infact twice as many as any of our players.

If the move to sell Yakubu was purely footballing reasons it is obvious it was a terrible decision, if it was for money then why are Heitinga and Billy still here stinking the place out so also an awful decision, ie they should have left first.

The Yak will score more than Saha this season. Saha is awful get him out the club washed up has been, few who can go with him Moyes top of that list.
Gavin Ramejkis
91   Posted 30/10/2011 at 15:26:15

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Ian, name me a season we've got close to getting fourth, realistically we've managed 5th and 6th but thats what the challenge was and most certainly not 4th.

You genuinely believe Moyes will be buying player(s) in the summer? With what money?
Eugene Ruane
92   Posted 30/10/2011 at 15:16:58

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Dave Wilson - re my point about us not HAVING to sell to buy Latchford, you state..

"No we just had to give Birmingham two players, one of them was our best player and after being Birminghams best player, he was was still good enough to play for us when he returned years later"

As per, stridently presented opinion dressed up as fact.

'One of them was our best player and after being Birmingham's best player' etc blah.


Well look, we could argue all night about whether Kendall was our 'best player' when he left, or Birmingham's, or whether he was 'good enough' when he returned (or whether we were simply bad enough) - however I'll skip going down that particular blind alley with you.

However, re 'No, we just had to give them two players' - wrong.

We didn't HAVE to do anything.

It was simply the deal best for BOTH clubs at the time.

(nb: didn't HAVE to - CHOSE to).

It suited us and it suited Birmingham and at the time (unlike with Ball) there were no noticeable 'Kendall-must-stay' feeling (and certainly no 'Styles must stay' protests).

We had the money as would be proved 6 months later when we paid (a record) £300000 for Dobson.

And this is the point - We KNOW it didn't suit Everton FC for Rooney to go, or Pienaar or Lescott or Arteta and it won't suit us when Barkley and/or Fellaini go.

But it WILL suit the bank.

Not a difficult distinction to see...for most.

Oh fuck it - blind alley.

As great a player as Howie was (and he was!) imo, we'd definitely seen the best of him by the time he left and personally, I think (the much slagged) Mick Lyons was our best player the season before Latchford arrived.

(nb: and whoever was 'the best', they would have only been the best of an incredibly average bunch).

As for who was the best at Birmingham, l've no idea (but...wasn't Trevor Francis there when Howie was?)
John Keating
93   Posted 30/10/2011 at 15:36:08

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I'm not holding my breath either
Ian Tunstead
94   Posted 30/10/2011 at 15:39:59

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Eugene, how did it suite Tranmere selling Dean or Blackpool selling Ball? That is the way football is and has been only we have become the Blackpool and the Tranmere.

you say ?We KNOW it didn't suit Everton FC for Rooney to go, or Pienaar or Lescott or Arteta and it won't suit us when Barkley and/or Fellaini go.?

I would argue it did and it will. What was the point in having Rooney when we finished 17th? It?s no good having one potentially great player and ten poor/average players alongside him. We couldn?t even get the ball to Rooney most of the time in his final season which lead to him getting frustrated and gaining more yellow cards than goals. We didn?t realise it at the time but it did make more sense to Everton to Man Utd and to Wayne to do the deal. We sold one potentially great player and over the following 4 or 5 seasons brought in around 10 decent/good players? and 2 or 3 shite. But overall it was an improvement on what we had before.

John, no I don?t agree that we are desperate to buy in the transfer window, as I stated in my post to Gavin I don?t expect us to spend in January, the last thing we want is another panic buy and wasting money. Lets give Vellios Drenthe and Barkley a chance to prove themselves first.

Gavin, what more do you want from me? 5th comes after 4th so we must have been the closet challenges for 4th with the team that finished 4th. And Yes I do believe Moyes will be buying players in the summer with the Arteta money and maybe the Fellaini money if he doesn?t sign in January.
John Keating
95   Posted 30/10/2011 at 16:08:18

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Hope you're right I an and we don't have to buy in January.
We haven't really got the squad not too !!
We're just outside the bottom 3 and in my opinion need someone almost everwhere from front to back.
Wafer thin squad and been dead lucky with injuries and suspensions so far.
OK lets give you the benefit of the doubt - again !!
Lets put the spare money we've got in the bank now - according to you, and put that in the pot we would spend close season anyway. Surely we can expect Moyes to spend upwards of 15 mill ????
Again I'll apologise if I'm wrong - will you ??
Dave Wilson
96   Posted 30/10/2011 at 16:14:56

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"It was simply the best deal for both clubs at the time" ... utter bollocks.

Evertonians were gutted when Kendall left, he was still a relatively young player ? part of the trinity. Birmingham didnt want to sell Latchford either, but Billy boy was desperate to make his stellar signing and Birmingham made him pay ? a bit like the Lescott deal.

Attempts to rewrite history may slip through the radar of the younger fan, but even they remember what happened a couple of months ago.

Arsenal's initial bid for Arteta was turned down and it was only when he said he wanted to go that the deal was resurrected; sure, it made the banks happier, but the ONLY reason Arteta left was because he wanted to.
Ian Tunstead
97   Posted 30/10/2011 at 17:51:11

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John, whenever we have had money in recent seasons after we have sold a player, we have immediately gone out and used the money to buy players, sometimes spending too quickly to appease the fans. We sold Rooney and went and bought, Neville, Beattie, Simon Davis and Arteta with the first £10m instalment, then over the next couple of seasons brought in Andy Van DM, AJ, Pienaar, Yakubu and Kroldrup who was replaced by Lescott. We sold Lescott and we immediately bought Distin Heitinga and Bily. We sold AJ and McFadden and immediately bought Fellaini, so I don?t see why we will not spend some of the Arteta money in the summer.

If we don?t then yes I will start asking some questions, but I have nothing to apologise for, it would be Bill Kenwright who should be apologising if we don?t see any of the money, but at this moment imo the squad is fine, we have a decent squad, Barkley hasn?t even been able to get on the bench until the last couple of games.
Dave Richman
98   Posted 30/10/2011 at 18:23:20

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Just a quick question from me:

Not having a pot to piss in, extremely small squad, antiquated stadium, incompetent board, negative coaching plus a team that plays some of the most imagination-free and mind-numbing football I have ever seen..... is this running a club 'The Everton Way'? If so then I will take the Russian / Arab / Indian billionaire + mercenary superstars any day of the week.
Michael Mcloughlin
99   Posted 30/10/2011 at 18:46:37

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Something tells me that this Indian company will not be splashing the cash like Chelsea and City. I think it will be more like the shite and have steady investment albeit £130 million would be a nice input. I see a new stadium coming out of this and we will build up based on profits from that and future revenue from associated spin offs. Shirts etc
I can understand a lot of people saying they dont want to do it that way but they want to do it the Everton way. What way is thta I would like ot know. This is the environment we are in at the moment this would be wonderful for the Blues. I am so sick of seeing crab football at the moment
Richard Jones
100   Posted 30/10/2011 at 18:56:49

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Not desperste to buy my god we have the smallest squad in the prem, Ian I think you are pre-empting your appologism, I really despair with our limp risted section of fans!!
Michael Mcloughlin
101   Posted 30/10/2011 at 18:55:06

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I would also like to see how good Moyes would be with a bit of cash I wonder I wonder ???
Gavin Ramejkis
102   Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:03:40

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Ian you deliberately made the point of top four challenges which is bollocks, we made it once through the RS having their worst season for years and the 5th and 6th finishes with daylight between us and 4th and decided each time before the end of the season and not down to the last game which I would deem a true definition of challenging for 4th.

Using your view on buying in the summer with Arteta money plus possibly Fellaini money would you say that would be two players then to replace the two we would be down or just the one or a Moyes special of unknown lower league kids from distant lands?
Franny Porter
103   Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:07:57

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I have no evidence to back this up whatsoever, but this takeover rumour bollocks, is just that...........bollocks.
Paul Gladwell
104   Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:16:35

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Not desperate to buy yet six of the few points we do have have been through daylight robbery.
I hate going the game and have done for God knows how long , is that what football is about Ian? but we can still say we are doing it the Everton way.
I looked at the support yesterday and from the first minute there was an air of expectancy to us getting beat, is that what football is about?
My mates five year old kid is questioning wether he wants to go anymore< are any Man City five year olds?
We still harp on about Sharps screamer 26 years ago, I am sure many of us would die happy to witness what City did last week.
It is simply jealousy to say we dont want what they have, i have a three year old and when I take him next season I want him to enjoy it and not go to school facing years of ridicule and if that means having a few Norwegians coming to our matches with plastic bags full of soverneir shop shit then so be it, as supporting Everton should at least have some fun and for anyone under the age of 30 there has been jack shit apart from one day in 95.
If I saw a big fuck off jumbo with our name in big fat letters on it I would think, right pay back time lets enjoy what is coming, not boo hoo I want my old miserable Everton back.
Michael Mcloughlin
105   Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:37:27

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Why would we not use the Arteta, Beckford, Yak money in January. Why wait till summer?
Denis Richardson
106   Posted 30/10/2011 at 19:45:29

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Ian @70, my point is that luck is what has saved us more than anything else. Rooney is/was a once in a generation player and we only got 24m for Lescott because Man City were taken over by a petrodollar funded Sheik who could almost sort out the Greek situation single handedly! These sales are not the norm and were both one offs in their seperate ways.

The Everton academy is not going to produce a 20-30m pound player every 4-5 years (that includes Rodwell and Barkely - lets get real here) and we are not going to be able to con Man City every couple of years either.

Other than Baines and Fellaini I dont think we have any players that would currently fetch more than 10m (dont think Wenger is going to come in with an 8 figure offer for Jags again given his form!). A business model cannot rely on luck.

If we were desperate to pay off loans then Fellaini and Baines would be the logical next to go - that would pretty much guarantee relegation. All we can do is wait until January and see whether it was bullshit about Moyes getting the Arteta money to bring in new players (although players coming in in Jan tend not to actually do that well anyway).

Ian Tunstead
107   Posted 30/10/2011 at 20:00:40

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Richard, it was only about a couple of decades ago when clubs would only play 13 or 14 players and less time ago than that it was only 5 subs. Is it 7 subs now? And we still have people like Barkley struggling to make the bench. We have about 3 players on loan that might be ready to make the step up next season, we have the academy league champions so there is a chance a few more players might come through in the next couple of season. This is what football is all about. Richard you are just a negative doom monger. I would rather bring through average players like Baxter and Bidwell to follow on from the likes of Osman and Hibbert than spending £9m on Bily.

Gavin, you say ?we made it once through the RS having their worst season for years?
They were the European Champions so it was an even bigger achievement to finish above them especially since we had one of the worst squads wev had having sold our two best players Rooney and Graveson. Obviously our definitions differ when it comes to challenging for the top 4, but in my eyes finishing 5th or 6th means we were challenger?s to 4th place.

If someone boxes against the heavy weight Champion and loses by a distance on points he is still called the challenger.

When Chelsea won the league by a distance does that mean they had no challenger?s? Bollocks.

With Arteta being allowed to move on that doesn?t mean we need to go out and buy if Barkley shows signs he can fill the gap and if Fellaini is sold and Rodwell shows he can fill the gap then maybe we will not need to buy two midfielders, it might be wiser to spend the money on 2 top quality strikers instead.
Ian Tunstead
108   Posted 30/10/2011 at 20:41:53

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Paul, yes it is what football is all about. Don?t blame Everton or Moyes for hating going the game, blame the premier league, blame Chelsea and Abramovich, blame Man City and the Arabs. The way they do things is not the way football is supposed to be run.

Haha your mates 5 year old kid is questioning whether he wants to go anymore? Exactly he is a kid, why are you taking it to heart? I probably said the same thing when I was a child and didn?t know any better. I faced years of ridicule at school for being an Evertonian that?s why one Evertonain is worth 20 liverpudlians, its what makes you stronger in life and why you can take the hardship in life better than a red shite, its why we are not as arrogant and delusional. I would happily bring my child up a blue and explain to them this is life, its hard, people will cheat and buy success, but get over it, you will just have to work harder than everyone else and you will be prouder and more appreciative for it.
Ian Tunstead
109   Posted 30/10/2011 at 20:43:49

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Denis i have to disagree again, I don?t believe so much in luck. My attitude is that you create your own luck, the harder you work the luckier you become. You might say Rooney was a one-off, but the City of Liverpool produces many great players. Maybe Rooney was the best of the bunch but, if Everton had got it right in the past like they are now, we could have had the Gerrards, the Owens, the Carraghers, the Fowlers, the McMannamans. I believe we can produce players of this quality every 2 or 3 seasons.

Maybe a few will come all at once or maybe we will have a gap of 5 years but the talent is there. I also think we could get at least £15m for Rodwell just for the fact he is English and plays for the U-21s. I think Barkley is much more talented than Rodwell so I think we could be looking at £20-£30m in the next couple of years. £20m is the going rate for average English players look at Henderson.
David Thomas
110   Posted 30/10/2011 at 20:56:24

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"Personally, I think (the much slagged) Mick Lyons was our best player the season before Latchford arrived."


Mick Lyons must have really impressed you that season seeing as though he played in less than 50% of our league matches.
Gavin Ramejkis
111   Posted 30/10/2011 at 21:11:17

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Ian you conveniently fail to mention that Rodwell and Barkley are already squad members so the use of them to replace Arteta and possibly Fellaini ignores the simple question of will we buy as you seem bloody adamant we will despite several years of Bullshit Billy's modus operandi showing this simply isnt the case. You seem to have contradicted yourself asserting Arteta was sold to provide funds to reinforce the squad but perform a U Turn implying Barkley and Rodwell could be used - make your mind up Ian, you seem so adamnt about money appearing but sidestep with a convenient alterantive belief now, which is it, cards on table I asked before and you claimed we will buy in the summer, I believe the money has already gone and come the summer so will Stracq and Drenthe.

You also use the analogy of the heavy weight boxing match as challenger - have you ever taken long odds against any of these? Did you ever bet against Frank Bruno and some of the utter shite he was pitted against in challenge fights? The label challenger is pretty meaningless if they are there to make up numbers
Eugene Ruane
112   Posted 30/10/2011 at 21:52:35

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Ian (94) - Proof (if proof were needed) that you seek (in vain) to score 'points' rather than to contribute.

You state - "Eugene, how did it suite Tranmere selling Dean or Blackpool selling Ball? That is the way football is and has been only we have become the Blackpool and the Tranmere".

Well it may NOT have 'suite-ed' them, which is why I SPECIFICALLY wrote..

"During the 60's, 70's, 80'S etc, it might have been good business for teams from the lower leagues to sell one or two decent players occasionally, to help their club's finances, but no first (ie: PL) division teams were having to CONSISTENTLY sell their best players or go under".

Take the words 'First' and 'consistently' then give me the same argument.

Facts: Tranmere weren't in THE TOP FLIGHT, and Blackpool didn't have to CONSISTENTLY sell their top players (and weren't in the top division themselves by 67)

If you have proof to the contrary, I would be interested, if not, why not stop making a twat of yourself with ever desperate non point-scoring bollocks.

Tip: Read the posts as written, not the ones that exist only in your head.

Dave Wilson (96) - can't compete with that, pure twaddle, all of it ('attempts to rewrite history' - from you, genius!)
Robert Daniels
113   Posted 30/10/2011 at 23:14:53

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Daily Mirror running story of takeover, it could be for real.
Ian Tunstead
114   Posted 31/10/2011 at 01:15:35

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Gavin, we already have a full bench and more so whats the good in buying players that might not be needed so they can watch from the stands? I havnt done a U turn, you seem to have ignored some of my post, Arteta was sold to provide funds to reinforce the squad but I don?t think a replacement for Arteta is needed I think it is in attack were the money will be spent.

In my analogy the boxer is still called the challenger when facing the Champion. So I will go with their definition rather than yours sorry.

Eugene, I don?t need to try to score points against you, I am just giving my honest opinion like you are giving yours. You are the one who is hurling the insults to score points, just because you are losing the argument no need to get ratty. Sorry if I missed one of your points which you SPECIFICALLY wrote but you and others have missed many of my points at times that I have SPECIFICALLY mentioned as well. Like Gavin in the post above missing that I mentioned spending money on strikers rather than midfielders.

The difference now compared with the 60?s 70?s and 80?s is that the top league is divided into 2 or 3 leagues itself with the top 5 or 6 in a league of their own who have the financial backing, with another 10 teams making up the numbers and 4 or 5 teams fighting over relegation.

What is ?consistent? or ?occasionally? anyway? Is it having to sell a player say every 4 or 5 years like Everton or is it every 7 or 8 years like Man Utd? The thing is there is a bit of confusion over some players, did we have to sell them or was it because they asked to leave, same with Man Utd did they have to sell Beckham, Ronaldo, Van Nistleroy Brown, Oshea? Where do you draw the line and say Everton sell consistently but Man Utd only sell occasionally?
Nicholas Randall
115   Posted 31/10/2011 at 02:49:25

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I don't think there will be any money spent next summer or in January. There was a quote from Moyes last summer saying that any money raised from player sales would go to the bank. This quote was before Arteta was sold but I still would assume that the money from Arteta's sale went to the bank. If Everton spend money in January or next summer, I will believe it when it happens.
Peter Barry
116   Posted 31/10/2011 at 03:34:10

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No its not TATA.
"Everton supremo Bill Kenwright is in talks with the Jain Group ? a wealthy Indian company ? about becoming his club?s financial saviour. The Mumbai-based conglomerate are huge in their own country, with energy and property businesses, and they now want to expand into England. Jain have their sights on Everton as a possible project, pumping in cash for a new ground.Leading officials from the company are looking into ways of buying Everton or lending them money, with Kenwright kept on in some capacity ? and boss David Moyes given a boost in the process."
John Keating
117   Posted 31/10/2011 at 04:50:48

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I read the exceedingly short article in the Mirror.
Remember whats gone on in the past at this time of year, added to the fact another protest march is coming up.
If it wasn't so embarrassing it would be laughable.
I would have thought the journalist in question would have made more of an attempt to establish all the facts and write an article with substance, after all we are supposed to be one of the biggest clubs in Britain.
Fuck me the Bournemouth takeover got a bigger write up !!
Peter Barry
118   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:06:22

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John this article has as much relevance and insight as the TATA link that ToffeeWeb have trumpeted.
Eric Myles
119   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:03:28

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Dave #96 It seems you're guilty of re-writing history also. Arsenal's initial bid for Arteta was 5 million and was turned down, and it was only when they came back with a bid of 10 million that the deal was resurrected and Arteta was told about the interest.
John Keating
120   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:26:38

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You're right Peter, new ground !!. I doubt the KEIOC lads will be interested in DM - not David Moyes - Destination Mumbai !
Eric Myles
121   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:24:20

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So now we've got 2 Indian billionaires fighting over us?

Good one Bill.
Peter Barry
122   Posted 31/10/2011 at 05:58:15

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Yep Eric and thats a squadron of pigs that just flew overhead.
Gavin Ramejkis
123   Posted 31/10/2011 at 06:20:16

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Ian, nice try but no coconut, we barely have a bench, we scraped together the squad required for registration and in those figures were players who hadn't kicked a ball in the EPL and you still believe thats fine? It was you Ian that said money would be spent and it is you Ian who has body swerved the potential that it wont now claiming we have more than enough in the squad. Make your mind up, try this one again and explain it - you think we need a striker so why not buy one with the Arteta money come January? Moyes brought in a striker Leicester rejected and from what I've heard in his very few appearances (not seen a game in a month) so far seem to have made the right choice by avoiding but you are determined with your belief Moyes will buy a striker come the summer with the Arteta money.

Its gone Ian, long gone and it isn't coming back, Everton are living hand to mouth and thats not going to change any time soon.
Derek Thomas
124   Posted 31/10/2011 at 06:26:19

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Eugene; We may have seen the absolute best of the storming Kendall of 67-70. To my mind in a creative sense he was keeping us afloat, he still had 90-95% of his 'legs' and the brain was as good or even better due to the experience gained, his head could save his feet. And as you say he could still do a job 10 yrs later.

Lyons and He were chalk and cheese, Big, strong, fit as, in the Middle Distance sprint that is the PL he would probably be worth millions doing Fellaini's job and a better tackler.

Both Lion Hearted Legends.
Paul Gladwell
125   Posted 31/10/2011 at 06:39:22

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Ian some decent points, most of us had that similar up bringing and school life, I got the last laugh as I left school in 85, you could also say 40k City fans had it far worse and do you think they are crying wanting to get back to good ole working class City where the only thing they had to shout about was having more fans in the City allegedly and that some knobhead popstars supported them, it rings a bell really. Just because we had the upbringing it does not mean our kids should.
Its jealousy and if we were in their position we would all be in dreamland, you included.
John Keating
126   Posted 31/10/2011 at 06:55:39

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Paul. I have been lucky. I saw the 63 team who were brilliant - but we didn't kick on.
I saw the 70 team, again brilliant and again we didn't kick on. The 80s team, well we weren't allowed to kick on.
This has been our history. I've read some of these posts about how we'd hate to be taken over by xy and z cos its not the " Everton way "
What utter shite !! What Everton way ???
I'd love my kids and grandkids to go to Analfield and beat the shit 6-1 !!! Challenge for honours for a few years and then get dumped.
Thats been the history of Everton FC !!!!!!!!!
Dave Richman
127   Posted 31/10/2011 at 08:23:48

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Come on lads...... It's been asked at least 3 times here, but no response yet...... What is the 'Everton Way'?
Paul Gladwell
128   Posted 31/10/2011 at 10:33:45

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Dave, for anyone under the age of 30 its dull,boring,plucky,small time and ridicule but if we had a shiny new stadium with a smaller one built next to it to arse around in with a jumbo jet with our name on it playing fantasy football twatting our neighbours 6-1 at their place with the plain simple fact we will eventually win the league and the Champions league too, this would be enough to make people unhappy and cry for the good ole days.
I will NEVER forget how I felt the week before that Wimbledon game and that threat could still reappear, will it for Man city?
Ian Tunstead
129   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:05:36

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Dave 125, the Everton way is very simple, its Nil Satis Nisi Optimum, nothing but the optimum. which to me means getting the very best out of what you have is the only thing that is acceptable, which i think we do considering our limitations.

It's also about bringing through young talented players and developing them. The "Everton Way" is doing things the ?right way?, it's not harassing refs, it's not diving or spitting, it's not cheating. That is my interpretation anyway and what i have witnessed.
Ian Tunstead
130   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:43:28

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Gavin, as I said in an earlier post, so what if we only scraped a bench, it wasn?t so long ago when squads only used 13 or 14 players a season it was an even shorter time ago when it was only 5 subs instead of 7. As long as we have 3 subs I am content. 7 subs is only needed by the teams competing in European competition and all domestic cups so the clubs can keep their huge squads happy and make them all feel involved, we cant afford the wages of a squad like Man Utd and don?t need one that size either.

So what if some of the players had never kicked a ball in the premier league, neither had Rooney at one stage then look what he did, if Barkley is half as good as Rooney then it shouldn?t matter if he?s never kicked a ball in the PL. Drenthe has kicked a ball in the Spanish league which you could argue is as good if not better than the PL, similar arguments could be put forward for some of the others on the bench so yes I do believe that is fine, not ideal, but acceptable.

As for your other point, yes I said at the moment we have more than enough to cope, people like Gueye, Barkley, Vellios and Drenth have hardly had a look in, by next summer things might have changed, maybe Vellios might not cut the mustard, maybe Drenthe will be on his bike, maybe Saha will retire, maybe Barkley or Fellaini will be sold.

In answer to your other question, there is no point in buying a striker in January for a number of reasons, firstly, we already have Vellios and Denis sitting on the bench seeing what they have got to offer, if they prove to be not good enough then we can spend money in an area that is needed rather than panic buying a striker only to realise later that velios or Denis a far better players and the money could have been spent better elsewhere. Maybe Drenthe will leave and it will have to be spent on a winger.

We also know that in January prices tend to be a lot higher than they would be In the Summer. Finally its only a matter of time before Saha calls it a day, so it might be wiser to wait until the summer and see what he decides to do. But who knows maybe next season Baxter, Long or Hope might come on leaps and bounds and the decision might be made to buy finch farm instead, there are many options but the last thing we want is to make a decision without weighing up all the options and make another Bily signing.
John Keating
131   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:46:21

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Yes Ian we could not harass refs, dive or spit with players bought for by some Arab bloody Sheik !! This "Everton Way" you and others talk about is shite and in 50 years going the match I've never heard of it !!
Ian Tunstead
132   Posted 31/10/2011 at 11:53:49

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Well, it's my interpretation, John, I have seen many times and many teams with players diving, cheating and harrasing the ref or trying to buy success, no matter what the cost in money or morals. It doesn't seem to be "the Everton way" in my eyes.
John Keating
133   Posted 31/10/2011 at 12:11:50

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Ian since when did Everton become the bastion of virtue of English football??
You obviously didn't see Alan Ball - didn't give the refs an inch !!
Gabriel, Morrissey they could be evil bastards.
Diving and cheating ?? Remember Anders Limpar against Wimbledon - kept us up.
Pienaar, on the ground if breathed on.
Arteta - come on ? A foul EVERY time ??
Ian I could go through EVERY Everton team and give you example after example.
You are definetly wearing rose tinted specs !
All our so called, for a better name " Golden periods " have been followed by absolute dross.
From 62 - 71 then shite. 80s then shite.
I want my grandkids to see us at least challenging for honours. At least not struggling against Blackburn and Fulham.
At least not depending on some Greek kid to bail us out because there is NO alternative.
If that means getting some foreign investor in and giving us a few years of glory then bailing out to be dross again then so be it. Because THAT has been the Everton way since I've been going
Ian Tunstead
134   Posted 31/10/2011 at 12:55:45

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Fair enough John, but I still dont think that kind of behaviour is as common at Everton as it is at most sides. I never saw Ball so I can't comment but I don't think Arteta and Pienaar dived, they certainly didn't roll around trying to get the opposition booked or sent off. If Arteta or Pienaar went to ground there was always contact, there is a difference.

Of the Everton team now, I can't think of any who I have seen dive or any of the other. Yakubu who is not here was the last I saw dive but he has gone ? and it was once or twice, not every other game, like some of the cheating bastards for Liverpool and Chelsea.
Tony X Williams
135   Posted 31/10/2011 at 13:14:55

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Slow down lads it's just been confirmed there are no Take-Over talks. It was a simple typo error. We are in Take-Out talks, Indian investors want to open an Indian Take Away shop behind that hole in the park end !
Colin Wainwright
136   Posted 31/10/2011 at 16:31:47

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The players are wiping their arses with left over programmes, 'cos we've ran out of bog roll, and Ian Tunstead thinks we're gonna buy Finch Farm.

Fuckin delusional!

We're skint Ian. Potless. Brassic.
John Daley
137   Posted 31/10/2011 at 16:47:34

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"I faced years of ridicule at school for being an Evertonian "

The first part of that sentence is easy to believe. The second part sounds like something you've tried to convince yourself of for years.
Ian Tunstead
138   Posted 31/10/2011 at 18:23:51

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Colin i dont think we are going to buy finch farm, it was just an option, i have no idea what we will spend the money

Haha thats a good one for you John. You sound just like those Liverpool fans that i had to put up with as a child, but it's like water off a ducks back now that i have grown up, clearly you havnt though. Perhaps you are still bitter about your own issues at school and want to lash out at the world. You can do it John if i can do it, keep the faith, remember you are a blue, one Evertonian is worth 20 reds.
Gavin Ramejkis
139   Posted 31/10/2011 at 18:53:49

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Ian the trouble with the kids who havent kicked a ball in anger other than against other kids will be lining up against other teams who have spent money on experienced players, the reserves games arent worth a balloon anymore so surely even you must realise the folly of reliance on some barely starting to shave kids to retain the club's presence in this league.

Moving on you mention Drenthe and Denis may be off, well some news for you Ian, we don't own them so unless some significant change happens we never will and they will be off in the summer. Expanding that more then if we are paying the wage of Denis for the season and he's barely getting game time then what's the point in him being here? Moyes had a striker on the books that cost him fuck all yet scored a good number of goals in Beckford and looked predictably shite when played in the Moyes' private hard on formation as a lone striker as he'll never be one.

Price wise for Everton going to the shops now we'll be held at gunpoint as we'll be desperate and its open knowledge potless whether its January or summer, I'd predict a January and possibly summer sale at again where we see player(s) out and nothing to note coming in maybe another foetus or loan from distant shores.
Ian Tunstead
140   Posted 31/10/2011 at 19:51:13

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Gavin, I am not saying that we would have to rely on kids, I?m saying one or two from the reserves or academy might be good enough to step up next season and take a place on the bench in the league and play in cup games and the likes of Gueye Velios or Barkley might stake a claim for first team football by the end of the season.

Rooney was a kid who had only played against kids but he was more than capable of taking a place in the squad, incase you have forgotten players like Baxter and Duffy have now played in more than just kids games. I?m not saying the next lot of kids will be as good as Rooney but if one or 2 are of similar ability to a Vaughn or Rodwell then that will be good enough for a place on the bench.

You are right about Drenthe and Denis but that is my point, we don?t have to worry about them moving on until the Summer, and if they are any good we can offer them a contract and not worry about buying another striker or a winger. The point of Denis being here is for emergencies should Saha or Velios get injured. It is a long season and he has already played a part by getting an assist against Wigan.
Gavin Ramejkis
141   Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:28:48

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Ian, semantics, the kids are in the squad right here, right now just to make up the numbers required. I genuinely hand on heart would love to see us produce one or two home grown talents but to rely on them to keep us in the league here and now or as a short to medium term strategy is plain daft, they'll earn no sympathy if and when it doesn't pan out whilst the old egomaniac fiddles in the main stand.

I'm not worried about Drenthe right now as he's getting game time but can't see the point in Denis, he's burning a wage for no return and both will disappear in the summer leaving us with a smaller squad again. Baxter should be getting game time not left to rot playing with kids and Duffy was shipped out to play in lower leagues, we've had a whole set of kids released every year for the last few years.

We need a mixture of old heads and new to teach and nurture the youth, we've got too many players at the ends of their careers, some in their prime but obvious targets to keep the club out of administration and kids who will be of no use to anyone if they are thrown over the top like cannon fodder as our last line of defence.
John Daley
142   Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:50:51

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"You sound just like those Liverpool fans that i had to put up with as a child, but it's like water off a ducks back now that i have grown up"

What did those despicable reds do to you? Maybe it's because it's Halloween but I'm imagining the scene from Carrie:

The camera rotating rapidly around a wild eyed Ian, stood up on the stage in his pigs blood splattered prom dress, with the words "they're all going to laugh at you, they're all going to laugh at you, they're all going to laugh at you" reverberating through his head.

Either that or they just said stuff like 'Everton are shit lad and that Hafnia kit looks itchy as fuck compared to our comfy new Crown Paints number'.

Either way i admire the way you've bounced back and not allowed it to scar you for life.
Paul Smith
143   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:03:05

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Ian Tunstead
144   Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:56:35

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Maybe so Gavin, my whole point in this thread has been teams have always had to sell to buy, if you don?t produce the talent or buy the right players you go down, that is football, I would take it on the chin to know that we did things the right way and the best we could without resorting to cheating.

The fact is we have been in top flight football longer than any other and one of the reasons is because we as a city will produce the talent and that is why it is not daft to rely on the youth as a strategy, it is inevitable that we will produce good young players if you look at History.

You will never convince me that bringing in a billionaire is the right option just like I will never convince you that having a billionaire is the wrong way to go. We just have different principles and your entitled to yours.

You are very funny John, I can imagine you at school being the class clown or maybe you were more the piss taker at the back of the class with the wise cracks.
Those characters usually got put in their place before they left school and never tried to be funny again, but I suppose like you they are still the same piss takers only they can get away with it by hiding behind a computer screen getting cheap thrills trying to bring back memories of the glory days when they had a prestige and a status in life.
Get out there John, stop living in the past, you do have worth now in the present, just cut out all this negative childishness and you can still go far. Because you are an Evertonian I?m willing to give you this free advice.
Peter Rogers
145   Posted 31/10/2011 at 23:15:31

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Posted this two weeks ago but was never posted . Hope its true and we ARE the new shitey, better than being mid table or worse

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