There is always a lot of talk on ToffeeWeb about the merits (or otherwise!) of various players. However, apart from bemoaning Moyes playing 1 up front, we haven't had that much discussion about formations per se. So, let me start it off.
Moyes's preferred system seems to be the 4-5-1... Actually it is really a 4-4-1-1 with one up top and an advanced midfielder (eg, Cahill). IMHO, it's not working very well for us in terms of the number of goals or opportunities created. I also think that role behind the striker is a bit one-dimensional. I've seen quite a few forum comments saying that we should play with two up front - presumably a 4-4-2. However, I'm wondering if a 4-3-3 line up might be a better option for us?
There are a few ways to play 4-3-3. The 3 in the middle can be flat, 1 defensive or 2 defensive. The 3 up front comprise a central attacker and essentially 2 wingers.The wingers can cover back defensively to make a 4-5-1 system. 4-3-3 has been used by Barca, Chelsea, Ajax and is actually the new "mandated" coaching system here in Australia. It is meant to provide more opportunities for joined-up play all over the park.
So, how would it work at Everton? The back four would be as normal and in midfield I would have say Rodwell, Fellaini and maybe Osman as he has some creativity and is no winger. Up front Saha with Drenthe and Gueye/Barkley would be my thinking. This should provide us with the same defensive options but with more attacking options going forward. Open for comments.
Ciaran Duff, Posted 31/10/2011 at 10:53:22
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1 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:09:39
Dave and I spend hours every day fine-tuning our formation and tactics. Literally an hour, because we discuss it on our dinner break. Actually it's probably about 35 mins tops when you factor in food chewing, tea slurping and awkward silences.
Anyway, we usually end up with a row of 4 salt shakers behind a row of 5 vinegar bottles and the brown sauce up top. Sometimes though, Davy gets this little twinkle in his eye, and you think 'aye, aye, the gaffers on to something here'. Then he slowly drags that brown sauce bottle back, slap bang in the middle of the 5 vinegar bottles. Honestly, when that first happened, the atmosphere was electric. The hairs on the back of my neck just stood up as I realised I was dining in the presence of a true tactical Titan. It's amazing to think we revolutionised the tactical handbook by fucking about with condiments over curry and chips."
2 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:00:38
Hibbert, Jagielka, Distin, Baines
Cahill, Rodwell, Fellaini
Coleman. Saha, Drenthe
3 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:25:30
4 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:25:37
Distin----- Jags---- Heitinga
Coleman-- Rodwell ---Baines
Works on Football Manager!
5 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:32:00
To my mind there is little wrong with the so called 4-5-1 so long as it is employed flexibly within games. Look at Man City, the can go from using it defensively to all out attack within the blink of an eye. That requires pace though. And the willingness to allow players to advance into attacking areas given the opportunity. It's not always the formation, but how it is used and which personell are used (and how they are asked to play) .
Frankly, I don't think Saha should be the fulcrum of a 4-5-1, he should play the second striker role off A.N. Other. Anyone else remember Bergkamp in that position? Louis has certain similar qualities and I think prefers trying to come in late and find space. Not as great a passing range as the great Dutchman though. So yes, Drenthe and Coleman on the wings, Rodwell / Fellaini / Osman in the middle (use players as appropriate and dependent upon opposition). Cahill as an impact sub - his most impact on a game this season was coming on against Blackburn, he was fresh and gave their tired defense more to think about.
6 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:33:47
Many people on here will call Moyes negative but he sets Everton up in just about the same way as 90% of the other managers.
Theres a prevailing theory in England about having to earn the right to play and for some reason everyone - with the possible exception of Wenger thinks the have to have a battle before they can play. Everyone goes man for man and the teams with the better players will win more games.
No Pep Guardiola`s in the prem Mate
7 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:46:09
Moyes plays 8-1-1 ffs. It has possibly helped keep him in the Premier League in his defence, but it is tragic to watch.
Holloway for Everton!
8 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:51:04
Is there the slightest chance that the two may have a chat on the way home ? Or is it essential that Osman or whoever has to be in our area when the opposition has a corner.
9 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:01:05
4-5-1 away to hard teams
4-4-2 away to everybody else
10 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:48:35
Moyes is cautious, he is more concerned about the wingers tracking back to mark the full back rather than to attack. Which is fair enough I guess. If we did to play a 4-3-3, we would sacrifice a lot of space, so would naturally concede more goals. But hopefully we would score more goals.
In terms of players, in my eyes, only Gueye and Drenthe can play this attacking winger role. Maybe Coleman at a stretch, but because he began as a defender, I do not think he has the attacking instincts similar to those two.
Ive been saying for ages how I would love for us to play this kind of system. Our central midfield is very suited for it, because either Osman, Billy or Barkley could play that creative role alongside Rodwell and Fellaini.
But it's amazing how based on Cahill this formation is. When Cahill first came, it was Carsley holding and Gravesen and Cahill bombing forward. Now Cahill doesnt have the legs, he plays as the first 1 in the 4-4-1-1 formation and our attacks are far too predictable.
I believe to progress, as good as Tim Cahill can be, and how world class he is with things like heading and timing in the box, we need to drop him and work the team around our wingers and central midfield.
11 Posted 31/10/2011 at 20:59:26
My set up would be -
...... Jags Distin Neville.........
...Coleman Feillani Drenthe.......
Could see Moyes opting for -
Neville Hibbert Jags Heitinga Baines..
Coleman McFadden Rods' Feillani Osman
12 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:13:56
Like so many statues everyone stands looking at the clouds, because there will be no incisive through ball, wall pass or any of that creative shite ..... HOOF.... the ball is launched on the diagonal in the hope the ensuing bunfight will get a corner, free kick, throw in or if the gods are with us ? a scrappy goal.
Chalk board formations matter not a jot, that is the Moyes formula. (sorry FM graduates)
It's the easiest ball in football to defend and bar "Donovan" the only evolution has been ? we used to lump it before the half way line.
As an aside, if I didn't know better after hearing SAF's comments about negating chances and seeing Rooney in midfield I swear he used the everton game as practice for his centre backs ? so predictable is this pitiful excuse for football.
Still it keeps us in the division......doesn't it????
13 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:25:38
I like the way that, for extra realism, you've depicted Saha going "fuck this for a game of soldiers" and storming off the pitch in a strop. "That's it, I've had enough. This is ze final straw. It is coz I is not confident in James Mcfaddens ability as a midfield general that I is so gutted."
14 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:31:15
Piennar in cahoots with Arteta and Baines gave us that option, as did Donovan. Cahill in his own way used to cause mayhem and crearted goals as a result of being exceptional in the air, but he's basically finished now too.
What can ya do with sod all creative players? Coleman has bags of energy, tries like a trooper but has nil guile or vision. Drenthe shows some promise but we'll reserve judgement. Rodwell is the spawn of Wilkins and cant see a forward pass if it lands on his head. Osman , who actually can play, has forgotten how. Fellaini is a rough diamond in my eyes but spends most of the time covering for Rodwell. Even Baines is suffering cos hes limited in who he can play off (post Arteta. Piennar). Osman on his day works well with Baines but as I say not this season
Basically weve never been able to replace our ageing and sold creative players.
15 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:40:38
We could sign the best eleven players in Europe hand them over to Moyes for a few weeks and they would turn out like all the rest Moyes has ruined.
16 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:21:47
With Mountfield, Ratcliff Stevens et al we had that type of player.
Our current back four of Hibbert, Jags, Distin and Baines are very quick over the ground and would be suited to that system.
Occasionally Distin will use his speed to push forward. If Jags could only control his inclination to hoof then he could use his speed to provide another attacking option through the middle.
I am not proposing that all of them race forward at the same time but they should be encouraged to use their exceptional speed as a regular attacking option.
The one drawback is it requires the keeper to look upon the whole of the penalty area as his zone and not just the six yard box.
17 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:08:53
18 Posted 31/10/2011 at 21:29:26
You posts every day to say you are one of the "old school" you wont "accept mediocricy". "NSNO" . .what utter bollocks.
You accept it every day, every single day of your life
You might try to make yourself feel better by trying to act all superior by calling good Evertonians names, but it has the opposite effect, you merely come across as Childish and rather stupid.
These are dark times for our club, but most Evertonians still like being Evertonians. not you, it would be difficult to find a post from you that says anything good about our club.
The reason you so resent the "apologist" is that they seem to enjoy certain aspects of being an Evertonian, for you its torture. if anybody is accepting shite its you. if its so bad, why put yourself through it ?
Try understand the game , when Fergie ordered his troops to camp in their own half it was because of fear. When he asked a world class striker to play in a deep lying midfield role, it was to protect his center backs, not give them practice.
United came to spoil the game not Everton,
You`re excepting it ok, because coming on websites to hiss childish names at good Evertonians does not constitute trying to do something about it
19 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:17:17
You're as mad as a hatter, put a lock on the fridge door this time of night and have some drinking choccie instead.
20 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:30:18
21 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:27:31
In the 3 - Cahill is looking past his sell by date, ossie only plays for a third of the season at best , bily is not up to it, maggie maybe but must have upset moyesy and ross has 18 months with no football to make up.
Drenthe could do a job on the along with mustard, but they are not the same quality.
Up front - Saha is past his best, denis is a donkey, and velios maybe a good player in time.
We will do well to finish in the top half - maybe the Indians will rescue us :)
22 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:38:05
23 Posted 31/10/2011 at 22:54:33
I really believe that the Cahill (sitting behind Saha) role is really a tactical waste. It could possibly work if that person is very mobile and the front man has a large presence and will hold the ball up (eg big Dunc).
I agree that you need wingers to play 4-3-3 properly. I do think that Drenthe, Gueye, Barkley and (don't laugh) Big Vic can fill those roles (I like Coleman but he's not a winger in my opinion).
I think that having more attacking wingers would help ease the isolation of the lone attacker and also would pin back opposition full backs and give maybe Baines a few more options going forward.
24 Posted 01/11/2011 at 01:44:06
25 Posted 01/11/2011 at 05:01:23
Jagielka Heitinga Distin Baines
Drenthe Rodwell Fellaini Gueye
26 Posted 01/11/2011 at 05:22:51
"....Fergie ordered his troops to camp in their own half it was because of fear. When he asked a world class striker to play in a deep lying midfield role, it was to protect his center backs......."
I wish I'd not gone out on the stag do now and watched SAF shitting his pants at the sheer tactical genius of Moyes' team setup (was it 4-5-1 by any chance?) and our immense attacking potential, creativity, movement and goal scoring threat.
Perhaps some other blues can verify that SAF came to Goodison in a state of panic and realized the only way he could possibly beat us was to play one of the best players in the world in a defensive midfield position to stiffle us, I'm gobsmacked, just my fuckin luck to miss it, crap!
Oh hang on a minute, SAF must be even better than I thought he was because given he was shitting his pants he seems to have outsmarted DM yet AGAIN and cottoned on to our threat, because I think United might have won 0-1, that's was soccernet said anyway.
And now I'm going to hug some big poisonous snakes...... now that's sarcasm. (Copyright Homer J Simpson 1995)
27 Posted 01/11/2011 at 06:54:16
28 Posted 01/11/2011 at 08:45:11
Yes its true, thats exactly what happened, now as you say if you`d have watched it, you`d have known,
But you didnt . .so you dont.
Funny fergie employing negative tactics to pinch a goal meets with your approval.
Predictable but funny
29 Posted 01/11/2011 at 09:28:04
30 Posted 01/11/2011 at 09:45:16
------- Jags, Heitinga, Distin----------
----------Rods, Osman, Fellli---------
We have 3 good central defenders in Distin, Heitinga and Jags. Distin and Jags are more man markers and Heitinga is better positionally and distributing. They take some of the defensive burden off Coleman & Baines to allow them to act as wing backs. We have 3 midfielders and 2 target men.
31 Posted 01/11/2011 at 11:53:15
In all my years of going the match I have never seen Man U time wasting against us. I have recently seen Ferguson change his team to nulify us, again something that didn't used to happen.
Also, the 4-3-3 that is being bandied about, isn't that just a 4-5-1 with the wingers moving up with the forward....you know!, just exactl what we do now?
32 Posted 01/11/2011 at 12:03:47
The game started and Harry prepared to do battle with Hungary's centre forward who wore the traditional Number 9.
Harry looked in vain for the wearer of the number 9 shirt. Why hadn't the blighter done the the right thing by heading straight for Harry so that the traditional centre half/centre forward battle could commence.
Harry then was surprised to see the bloke wearing the 9 shirt having lots of ball touches and controlling the game from the other half of the pitch. A very confused Harry decided that seeing as his man would not come to him then he had better go to him.
So ended England's dominance of the game.
I had just started my working life when in a dock road cafe I listened to a broadcast of that momentous thrashing.
33 Posted 01/11/2011 at 13:56:29
That's just made me spill yogurt down the front of my shirt!!!!!!
34 Posted 01/11/2011 at 14:03:45
Now I've spilt my drink and it looks like I've pissed my pants!!!!!
35 Posted 01/11/2011 at 15:30:37
36 Posted 01/11/2011 at 15:42:20
Trevor is not only childish and stupid, but his cynical negativity is becomming tedious. The most annoying of the toffeeweb millitant tendancy, and his failure to see Fellaini's talents show he knows nothing about football too.
37 Posted 01/11/2011 at 15:59:19
At the moment we don't have the wide players (hopefully Drenthe will fill one side, still not convinced entirely with Coleman) and we don't have the second striker/playmaker to play off the centre forward. Until we do then the 4-5-1 system won't be to alot of fans liking. Cahill always reminded me of a Lampard type goalscoring midfielder arriving late in the box chipping in with goals, I don't think he's suited to being the link player.
38 Posted 01/11/2011 at 16:15:05
But is it just me that finds this "knows nothing about football" jibe a step too far?
It seems pretty sad when you have to come on a football forum to put down other fans of your club in such a pathetic way, whatever the merits of your views. Please pack it in, Graham.
39 Posted 01/11/2011 at 16:32:26
40 Posted 01/11/2011 at 17:18:11
41 Posted 01/11/2011 at 17:26:47
42 Posted 01/11/2011 at 17:29:35
Actually think he and Baines are our best players - don't remember saying anything different to anyone, but just for Graham - that Fellaini is shite.
43 Posted 01/11/2011 at 17:38:12
"knows nothing about football" is off limits, but calling someone stupid; i.e. "knows nothing about anything" is fair game.
Personally I prefer being called a "twat" or a "prick" much more than being misrepresented by manipulative egotists who can't allow a single thread to remain Bill-bashing free.
Is it okay if I label the perpetrators of the aforementioned crime "fucking clowns"?
44 Posted 02/11/2011 at 03:00:45
45 Posted 02/11/2011 at 15:00:41
Coleman Jags Distin Baines
Gueye Barkley Drenthe
4-2-3-1 would be a more attacking formation but Moyes is very defensive minded i don't think he'll ever go this formation
46 Posted 02/11/2011 at 16:03:28
47 Posted 02/11/2011 at 20:51:08
48 Posted 02/11/2011 at 21:25:41
49 Posted 03/11/2011 at 10:07:24
i know they were nervy due to the thrashing last week but I have never seen Man U so defensive and resort to wasting time.
I did had to laugh at Halsey though, they had been time wasting for 30+ minutes and when we were into injury time, he eventually speaks to De Gea about time wasting.....wasting time in the process doing it.
If the whole crowd could see Man U time wasting from 50+ minutes, why couldn't the prick in the middle?
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