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Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

A new approach

 84 Comments: First  |  Last

How about this for an idea:

In goal: Tim Howard.
Across the back: Coleman Jagielka Heitinga Distin Baines.

But here is how it would work: Coleman and Baines (imo they are soft defensively, perhaps mainly due to height) would be out-and-out wing-backs, encouraged to literally bomb forwards at any possibility. I think this would get the best out of Coleman, and the idea is that, if Coleman is forward, Jags covers for him at right back, whereas if Baines is forward, Distin covers for him at left back. Heitinga would have a licence to get on the ball and get forward.

Midfield: Fellaini Rodwell Barkley.

I would encourage Fellaini to sit back and break things up, and give Rodwell and Barkley permission to get on the ball and run at defenders, or sprint into the box and make runs. (This never seems to happen at the moment.)

Forward line: Saha Vellios

Again this is really making the best of what we have. Saha would be encouraged to link up with the midfield, Vellios encouraged to be in the penalty box! For me, it really beats having a lone striker, which does not seem to work for Everton at the moment. <0p>

You will notice there are no right or left midfielders; that is because I believe most of ours to be ineffective... however, in this system Baines and Coleman would hopefully provide the width we would need.

Robbie Carew, Wirral     Posted 07/12/2011 at 21:27:29

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Jarrod Prosser
1   Posted 08/12/2011 at 03:30:35

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I've been pushing this barrow for a while - and we're certainly not the 1st to do so, either.

This lineup gives us a very solid defensive base (a must for Moyes) with a ball playing CB to offest Jags & Distin. It also eliminates our biggest weaknesses - RB and wide midfield.

We'd need cover for Coleman, but Drenthe has played wing back before, so he wouldn't be unfamiliar with this shape.

This would also move Osman & Bily inside (Ossie as a back up for mine).

This shape allows us to use pace out wide & quick passing (the side you've listed is generally very solid in that dept) to become a solid defensive unit with some serious counter attacking potential.

Still, afraid it won't happen.

Luke O'Farrell
2   Posted 08/12/2011 at 04:15:07

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People love championing this 3-5-2, but it is even more outdated than our current 4-5-1 variations. Coleman doesn't have the stamina to last a full game in one position, never mind two. If Coleman or Baines got injured, the formation wouldn't work; nobody could replace them. It's a nice idea, but would never work.
Rob Teo
3   Posted 08/12/2011 at 04:24:41

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But Luke#2: Regardless of whether it's an advanced or outdated formation, it at least appears to play to our strengths. And if Baines or Coleman got injured, it still wouldn't work regardless of whether we played 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 or whatever. I mean, what's the alternative? 4-5-1? Oh, wait, that hasn't worked in a while.

Still, I agree: It won't happen. Coming up with alternative playing formations is not in Moyes' DNA.
Tony Cheek
4   Posted 08/12/2011 at 05:21:37

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Yes Rob, it does play to our strengths. The trouble is we have a manager who doesn't know what our strengths are! He has trouble finding the right positions for individual players, and you are asking him to find it for a whole team. Give the man a chance!

Like the formation and team by the way Robbie, would love to see it given a chance......well, we can at least dream about it!
Derek Thomas
5   Posted 08/12/2011 at 07:24:59

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I've been saying 352 since Lescott was at LB, will it happen, no chance.

451 can be flexible, infact to work properly it has to be.

352 can be and must be flexible and fluid.

All formations should be flexible. But the numbers game we play is not flexible, it's just a handy label to give you a guide.

Moyes on the other hand is NOT flexible... and there lies the problem
Al Reddish
6   Posted 08/12/2011 at 09:26:47

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I have thought of this formation myself due to the players we have and think it would be a good system..........however I don't think we will ever see it!
Andy Mack
7   Posted 08/12/2011 at 09:19:42

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Sorry to reference Football Manager, but I'd love Moyes to try something like this, look at our squad with fresh eyes, as if he were coming into the job afresh - like leaving FM and coming back to it two months on, and not remembering who your faves are or just shuffling the pack to try something new after a run of bad results. Go for it Moyes!

I think we really need two up front these days to give some sort of threat. We seem pretty decent at times but then it just runs out of steam the closer we get to the opponents goal - our next opponents barely need to send scouts to see how we'll be lining up.
Tony J Williams
8   Posted 08/12/2011 at 09:43:05

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So our apparently defensive manager who gets slated for being too defensive should start with 5 defenders along the back?

Wing back or not, that is a 5-3-2 formation and where is our most excitibg player this season Drenthe? The old Christmas tree formation that served MacLaren so well in his final qualifying game.....hang on didn't we go out?

4-5-1 with fluid movement or a 4-4-2. We simply do not have the personnel of a 5-3-2 or a 3-5-2 if you want to call it that.

It would never work anywhere else but on a PS3
Nick Entwistle
9   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:09:30

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What a brilliant tactic. I'll give this more thought when I listen to Cast and watch TFI Friday. By the way, anyone heard of this great new drink? Its vodka with a redbull mix... reeks of cool Brittannia. Must say that Jenny McCarthy is hot. Glad that we've seen the last of Peter André. Alan Shearer is on how much? Twenty grand a week?!?!

... and other assorted references of the mid 90s.
Graham Holliday
10   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:20:36

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To give a bit more weight to the theory that 3-5-2 is outdated:

Most sides now play a variant of the 4-5-1 formation. 2 key components of this formation are:

- 1 player up front
- Adventurous full-backs

Now, a 3-5-2 doesn't make sense against this formation, because you essentially have 3 centre-backs marking one man... and because the wing backs give you no protection against the high wingers and adventurous full-backs common in the 4-5-1.

The reason 3-5-2 was so popular a few years back was because most sides were playing 4-4-2, and it offered an extra man in the 'engine room' (centre mid).

This benefit is now nullified as most teams play 3 in centre mid.

I agree, the players at our disposal fit this formation nicely... but in practice, in the modern day Premier League, it just doesn't make any sense, sorry.
James Morgan
11   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:08:56

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Does anybody know the last time Moyes started with anything other than 4 5 1?
We should change depending on opposition, not sticking with the same old tripe regardless of who we are playing. It's boring, predictable and negative. I think Moyes' head would explode if he had to think of another formation.
Danny Broderick
12   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:27:24

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I'm not a fan of that formation, sorry. Any good team playing 4-4-2 with wingers would destroy it.
Ian Tunstead
13   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:26:13

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It realy is funny how people get carried away with tactics and formations. "New approach" you say. There is nothing new about it. If Moyes played that formation it would be seen by the Moyes bashers on here that he was more negative than ever and playing 5 at the back! Baines already acts as an out and out wing back who is encouraged to get forward. 4-4-2 is the same as 4-5-1 which is the same as 4-3-1-1. It is easy enough during a game for Moyes to tell people to get back or get forward, it wouldnt change the results one bit. It is the quality of the players which will change the results.
Ian Tunstead
14   Posted 08/12/2011 at 10:32:53

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4-3-2-1 the last one should say sorry.
Ricardo Gimpardsle
15   Posted 08/12/2011 at 11:16:41

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Whatever formation you play, the most important factor is always pass and move. Our players struggle with the passing part and so never manage to graduate to the move part.
Mike Rourke
16   Posted 08/12/2011 at 11:32:32

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I don't think you could accuse Basle of having superior quality players to United or Napoli players of being better than City's, yet over the 4 matches played between those teams the Manc's won sweet FA ( oh the joy ).

That must've had something to do with the jiggling around of or unfamiliar tactics used by the opposition.

And surely, in any sport, the best tactic is to 'Keep 'em guessing' so if Moyes could pick one, two or even three of the formations suggested above and adapt it to the opposition then I'm convinced he would meet with a bit more success.

I still back the guy - but this rigid devotion to 4-5-1 looks to be his major weakness.
Stephen Kenny
17   Posted 08/12/2011 at 11:40:22

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Plenty of tactical genius on here slating this yet have the asked themsleves this. Would this formation and these players get us a single shot on target against Stoke at home?

I'd say yes, which means its an improvement on what we have.

Plenty of the genius(es) have also forgotten that you should play to your strengths and find a system that suits your players, rather than make your players suit the system I.e. Heitinga/Jagielka in midfield.

In any given match this formation would go from 3-5-2 to 5-3-2 to 3-4-3 and so on.

Once upon a time playing 4-5-1 with a shite striker like Marcus Bent would have seen you laughed off your coaching course. These days it's the blueprint for staying in the PL.

That's what I find so disappointing about Moyes. Once upon a time he was a trailblazer and we genuinely were punching above our weight.
Ian Tunstead
18   Posted 08/12/2011 at 11:38:48

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Mike that is the beauty of football, sometimes the under dog can get a result against all the odds by hopefully playing the top side on an off day like Basle did with Man Utd or when we have beat Man Utd or Chelsea in the past, but they are rare occasions.

Yes you make a valid point that Basle won over 2 legs against a superior side so it is not quite a one off game, but i would argue if they were to play each other 20 times Basle would probably be lucky to win twice. It was unlikely to happen, yes it happend but i dont think you should get carried away and let it cloud your judgement because if you look back over the last 10 years you will see it is a freak occurance for one of the top European clubs to be knocked out so early.

I dont think tactics or formations had anything to do with Basle knocking Man Utd out, i think it it is more to do with Man Utd having an off day, being complacent like they did against Palace perhaps due to playing a young inexperienced team, lets face it Man Utd havnt exactly been brilliant, they have been scraping wins and even taking a 6-1 beating this season.

Matthew Lovekin
19   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:33:59

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Robbie, a nice idea and works well in theory, especially having two strikers!

The only downside is the lack of creativity from midfield. Three central midfielders who are all really box-to-box midfielders. It really could do with a Gascoigne type midfielder. Therein lies the problem; we don't have many options. No creativity, no wingers (why you chose a 5-3-2) and no flexibility.

You are trying to make the best of a horrible scenario and I applaud you for that, but it is Moyes' fault as to why we don't have options in our squad, it is merely a hard-working defensive set-up squad.

The other problems are injuries and form, etc. What would you do if Baines got injured? There is no replacement.

A nice idea though. It's a shame Moyes doesn't think along the same lines to try and experiment and do something different.
Stephen Kenny
20   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:48:56

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So if our manager goes out with his nick-a-point set-up next time we play them, will you support it?
Christopher Brown
21   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:46:19

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Really good point - system are there to make the most of the players available and will always change. Otherwise, why are we not playing 2-3-5 - 2 full backs, three half backs and five up front a la 1920s/30s!

10 Graham Holliday: You make a good point about the set-up against the 4-5-1s in operation. But also think of it positively. You have 2 up front against two central defenders, giving them no spare capacity. Two wing backs keeping their full backs penned in, plus two central midfielders in support, with good defensive base.
Mike Rourke
22   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:42:37

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Ian, I mentioned on another thread that I heard Ray Wilkins say he thought Napoli's 3-4-3 system 'baffled' Man City, hence their ability to beat them and effectively knock them out of the CL.

Of course you are right in so far as greater quality will much more often than not prevail, hence my complete acceptance of the fact that without proper funding we can't expect Moyes to keep performing relative miracles.

However, what he can do is to at least try and gain an advantage by keeping the opposition on their toes with regard to his formation.

Imagine if you will Wengers pre-match preparations for Saturday.

He's going to set-up against the 100% probability of a 4-5-1 formation which concentrates it's attacks down the flanks with the primary outlet being Baines crossing into a lone striker - because that is what Moyes has done in every game we've played home and away for a long, long time.

How, he coaches the team to defend against that and counter-attack effectively is what makes him a genius and me a bloke who sits on the internet chatting bollocks about it.

But imagine how surprised old Arsene would be if Moyes sprang a 3-4-3 on him!

The only people more shocked than him would be sat in the away end.

He'd also have to adjust his formation and strategy accordingly - and that might, just might, give us enough of an edge to spring a surprise.

Well, that's what I think anyway.
Anthony Lewis
23   Posted 08/12/2011 at 12:55:53

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Screw that let's go 4-3-3.

All the top teams do it and we might actually get some shots at goal

Back four:
Coleman, Jags, Jonny, Baines
Barkley, Felli, Rodders
Up front:
Saha, Vellios and Drenthe

Jeez that would seriously destroy team in PES
Tom Bowers
24   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:10:59

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Not quite the changes I would like because it's just shuffling the pack with the same players who are not good enough save a few. Firstly we need height at the back and we need Distin back there at leats for the rest of the season. We also need a leader and Pip should replace Hibbert who cannot mark a player to save his life and besides Pip is much more versatile.

Drenthe and Barkley should be in to add a some steel to midfield at the expense of feeble Osman. We should always have 2 forwards and therefore I would go with Velios and Saha injuries permitting.
Rodwell and Felliani make up the rest of midfield adding some height as well as ground skills. Gueye and Straq should be on the bench although I would like to see more of Gueye should Drenthe's loan not be extended in January.

In my book the other players Heitinga, Cahill, Osman, Coleman and Hibbert should also kick their heels on the bench. Coleman is an enigma. A player who starts off well but tends to fade. He has basically suffered from having to cover an inept Hibbert which has restricted his forward running particularly in the second half of games.

Other than that, we cannot do anything until new money comes in and a new manager. I'm ready!!!!!
Ian Tunstead
25   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:05:45

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Mike, some managers or pundits like to talk up tactics and formations to make themselves sound good on the TV and also so they can talk themselves into being paid more because they make it seem like they can improve a side with their knowledge of tactics.

Napoli are like Everton a few seasons ago they have a very good starting 11 who can give most teams a game but they dont have the squad to be consistant over the course of a season.

The other side of the argument is what about SAF and Mancini's tactics? Surely they know every tactic in the book, but it didnt matter, they still got knocked out because on the day their team just wasnt on form.

As for Moyes changing his formation to suprise Wenger, most teams play the same formation and tactics every game because they are playing to their teams srengtths. SAF has said in the past they dont change the way they play for anyone.

It also make things more difficult if you dont have the options to make those changes. My own view on tactics and formations has always been play you best players in their best positions playing to your players/teams strengths by keeping the right balance to the side, ie dont play too many in defence and be weak up front and dont play too many up front and be weak at the back. You might say Moyes is negative and plays too many at the back but if he only has one striker to pick from or a young kid on the bench that makes his tactical options irrelavent .
Ian Tunstead
26   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:23:58

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Stephen, yes I will support it if we dont have the options to play a more attacking team and also considering Moyes has a decent record against the like of Man City compared to most other teams.
James Stewart
27   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:28:20

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Coleman Jags Distin Baines
Barkley Rodwell
Drenthe Saha Gueye

For me.
Guy Rogers
28   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:31:13

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Come on guys, it's all about the Christmas tree formation, anyone remember that one under Venables... or was it Taylor?

Or what about having big Jack in the sweeper position he could be our Sammer/Koeman?
Guy Rogers
29   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:36:03

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With you all the way there James, it's what everone is crying out for, a bit of excitement and Ossie and Hibbo resigned to the bench or squad list, with Bily showing a return to form and pushing for inclusion in the centre three.
Stephen Kenny
30   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:39:06

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So despite the fact they got turned over by Palace, Basel, 6-1 by City and by your estimation haven't been brilliant and have been scraping wins (and draws) you'd still be happy for us to play for a draw?

Your dedication to the Moyes cause is truly admirable!!!
Stephen Kenny
31   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:45:23

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Ian, how did we get on against the likes of Man City this season?
Mark Stone
32   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:46:43

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"But imagine how surprised old Arsene would be if Moyes sprang a 3-4-3 on him!"

If we tried that we'd get torn a new one by Arsenal.
Steve Cotton
33   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:51:37

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What are the odds on Cahill and Osman (if fit) being the first names on the team sheet? Cahill, who hasn't scored for a full calendar year, and Ossy, who hasn't had a good game in about 7 months.

Bily will feature and be slagged off immediately afterwards (probably deservedly) and Vellios will be left with support until 80 minutes when he gets replaced with someone else with no support.

Gueye will get injury time to get into the game and Heitinga will get booked.

And no crystal ball......
Ian Tunstead
34   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:52:54

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Stephen, We were doing ok against City playing Moyes favoured formation until Cahill got injured and was forced to make a change. As soon as we went 2 up front we got a took apart. But Man City have beat us once in about 6 attempts which isnt something to turn your noes up at.

As for Palace beating Man Utd, to be fair they played quite a few unproven kids on the night, Basle as i said was a bit of a freak but Man City are a top side who if you go toe to toe with them especially if you are down to 10 men like Man Utd were there is a good chance that they will rip you apart like they did to us.
Graham Holliday
35   Posted 08/12/2011 at 13:56:02

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Christopher (21)

My issue with 3-5-2 against 4-5-1 (or indeed 4-3-3) remains... you'd basically be asking Baines/Coleman to defend against two players, and be an attacking threat at the same time.

Imagine Coleman trying to play as a wing back against Assout-Ekotto and Bale for example! We'd be destroyed!

Stephen Kenny
36   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:05:03

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What I've took from your posts on this thread is that you're quite happy for us to never go out and try to win against a side with more money or a bigger reputation?

Can you name any scenario where you think it would be OK for little Everton to have a go?
Stephen Kenny
37   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:07:43

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The thing is if you have two strikers playing most sides won't commit full backs forward. If they do they leave themselves 2 on 2 at the back and open to a quick counter or ball over the top with no cover.

It's like a game of chess. Every formation will leave gaps that can be expoited. Whether you exploit them will depend as much on your mindset as your formation.
Ian Tunstead
38   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:26:52

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Stephen i dont really know what you are talking about, it might seem to you like we were only trying to pinch a point against Man City but we've usually took all 3 points in the process. I think Moyes goes out to win every game but he will just be more cautious against the top sides and sometimes the lesser sides if he is lacking options.
Stephen Kenny
39   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:33:37

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The fact we never wen't in their half from 15mins onwards was a bit of a clue we were after a draw. Or were we trying to catch their keeper of his line with a really, really long shot?

On this thread alone you have made up all kinds of excuses for us to not have a go against good sides. So I'll repeat, can you name any scenario where you think it would be O.k for little Everton to have a go?
Jay Harris
40   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:30:50

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I really do not think our problem is with formation.

We do not have pace to hit teams on the break and we do not commit enough players forward of the ball so we are always going backwards or sidewards giving opposing teams time to get organised.

We need the players to be encouraged and have confidence to break forward not be ultra cautious and over disciplined.

Because of our lack of pace up front and relative pace at the back (Distin and Jags) I would play a much higher line and therefore have higher numbers up the pitch.
Graham Holliday
41   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:44:56

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Stephen (36) - definitely agree on the mindset (and incidentally the quality of players argument), getting the structure of the side right can only give you an extra couple of percent likelihood of winning a game, but don't let that detract from the fact that 3-5-2 is a poor formation choice against a side like to play a variant of the 4-3-3/4-5-1.

Re: full-backs, only one tends to go forward at a time, so they would be 3 on 2, plus the minimum 1 deep lying of the centre mids - plenty of cover still allowing for the wing backs in the 3-5-2 to get doubled up.
Stephen Kenny
42   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:49:22

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I agree. Regardless of how we set up if players don't move off the ball and we don't try to play through teams it won't make any odds.
Stephen Kenny
43   Posted 08/12/2011 at 14:51:03

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If one full back stays back and a deep lying midfielder sits deep that leaves us two men over defending. It would also mean that we were very solid in the middle of defence. Occasionally getting a 2 on 1 on the wings would be a small price to pay IMO as this would tighten our defence up, stop teams coming through the middle (where we concede most of our goals) and give us a better chance of stretching sides with two up top. Especially if we played Barkley in the Cahill type role.

I think the most important thing for us is to find a system which suits the squad of players we've got. It feels like we shoehorn players into a 4-5-1 even though it stopped working when Yakubu, Arteta and Pienaar left.
Stephen Kenny
44   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:04:32

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** or got injured
Graham Holliday
45   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:08:07

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Yup, the fact that Moyes has let us get to a point where our only right wingers are Coleman (probably still a full-back in the long term) and Anichebe (barely even a forward in the long term) is truly shocking.

I do remember the RS playing a 3-5-2 variant recently for a couple of games, but I didn't want my eyes to bleed so I avoided watching them.

But certainly those reasons I've outlined are the reason that the 3-5-2 is basically not played by any PL side currently.

Can't imagine it being worse than what we witnessed against Stoke though!
Ian Tunstead
46   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:29:04

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Stephen, little Everton have a go in every scenario, the problem is that we dont have the players with the ability to keep possesion as well as 6 or 7 teams in the league, that usualy means they can pin us in our own half and whether we want to get forward or not it is just not possible. A little bit like the CL final when Barcelona had Man Utd pinned in their own half for most of the game, because they have better players. Fortunatley Man Utd have Rooney who can sometimes create something out of nothing and got them a goal.

I suppose you are going to tell me that SAF told his players to be defensive and negative in the final.
Stephen Kenny
47   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:37:48

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Ian, they were outplayed for sure, but I saw them try to play, I saw them get the ball down and they got into Barca's half too. I never saw a CB booting the ball aimlessly forward even when there was a short pass to be played, time and time again.

I also don't remember Ferguson telling everyone they were taking a knife to a gunfight.

Our side is a lot better than you and Moyes give it credit for.
Ian Tunstead
48   Posted 08/12/2011 at 15:59:59

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Stephen that is because they have the players who will bring it out from the back. Moyes has been heard by myself and others who come on this site shouting at Jaggs to pass it. What do you want him to do, drop him and fall out with him like he did Yakubu so you can blame Moyes again for falling out with players and losing them for a fraction of their value?

Dammed if he does and dammed if he doesnt

Man Utd are a lot closer in quality to Barcelona than we are to Man Utd and Man City. If Moyes did play 2 up front or what ever formation you want we we be in a lot worse position and you would still be complaining.
Jay Harris
49   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:23:15

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I agree with you.

Anyone who has been dealt the "Kenwright" card deserves sympathy.

Man City are living proof that the quality of players and amount you spend can buy success.

However the Moyesiah that came to us 10 years ago appears to have become disillusioned and defeated and that is not helping anyone.
Stephen Kenny
50   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:26:33

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So do we. These fella's are England internationals were talking about here. Not League 2 yard dogs.

If Jagielka consistently ignores Moyes why doesn't he fuck him off until he learns to follow his instructions?

Very simple, your dropped, your back in when you start passing to one of ours.

Why does a player getting dropped for a few games lead to a major falling out, being transfer listed and sold for buttons??? I think you've just let slip your true opinion on how Moyes deals with players there Ian!!!

If he told Seamus to stay on the touchline and he kept drifting inside costing us possession he'd get the shepherds hook before you know it.

Why not the Jag??? Because Moyes was quite happy to see him twatting the ball as far away from our goal as is humanly possible.

"If Moyes did play 2 up front or what ever formation you want we we be in a lot worse position and you would still be complaining."

How the fuck do you know? Have you got some kind of crystal ball?

For the record I couldn't give a fuck what formation we play or even how many are upfront. It's the mentality that determines how you play, not the formation. Moyes is in footballing terms a shithouse. A latter day Howard Wilkinson. In fact it wouldn't shock me if that's who Moyes has moulded himself on.
Jimmy Sørheim
51   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:16:03

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In a tough spot there Ian.
Well , I have always thought that 4-5-1 , or more correctly 4-4-1-1 was Mr.Moyes in nutshell, and guess what, he simply does not play ANY other way.
If we were to se 442 with diamond or 433 in the true attacking sense I firmly belive Goodison would be a more positive place to be.

But now and for how long have Moyes played the 4411 and NEVER dares to do anything else.
In Football Manager Moyes RATINGS in Defending are 18 of 20, whiloe Attacking ratings are 9 of 20, gee I wonder why that is.
All those stats at Football manager are very true to life stats on the players AND managers, and if you go and look at Anichebe and his ratings you will not be surprised

We lack the Artetas the pienaars and the Yakubus in this world, but you still choose to defend Moyes, with this rubbish squad, even though Moyes HIMSELF said many times IT WAS MY CHOICE ALONE TO SELL ARTETA.
Well, I submit that now is the time you deal with your choice Mr.Moyes..
Stop excuses as you have made them for yourself, we lack this and that, well you kind of knew that before didnt you!!! And still you stood quiet and did nothing to get a replacement for Arteta.

Either you are lying for Kenwright, which will get you dragged down to hell, or you are just plain stupid.
No other manager would DARE sell his BEST player in the last 10 years without replacements in first or right after.
Ian Tunstead
52   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:41:52

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?These fella's are England internationals were talking about here. Not League 2 yard dogs?

Where did we buy Jaggs from? He is a championship standard player who has some attributes such as pace, good tackling and good header of the ball, his passing is not one of his strong points which is why it took him until his mid 20's to establish himself as a PL player. The fact that Moyes has been able to get the best out of him and to use him so effectively to become an England International should be applauded not used as a stick to beat him with.

?If Jagielka consistently ignores Moyes why doesn't he fuck him off until he learns to follow his instructions??

And play who? Distin is injured. I don?t know how Moyes deals with players I am stating how other peoples minds have worked on this site and I am very confident that if Moyes dropped Jaggs which we couldn?t afford to do anyway, and we started losing games people would be calling for Moyes head for dropping an England international, I?ve read this site too long, I know how it works.

As regards what would happen if we played 2 up front:
?How the fuck do you know? Have you got some kind of crystal ball??

No but I have watched all the other teams outside the top 5 with big money play all these other formations suggested, with nice tippy tap passing and every one of them has finished below David Moyes for about 8 out of 10 years.

Most of the best attacking/passing sides have been relegated after one season. Blackpool, Hull West Brom. All praised at one stage or another for being ?a breath of fresh air for having a go?

History tends to repeat itself I have noticed.

I always thought Moyes moulded himself on SAF maybe if he had his money to spend and wages to offer things would be a bit different.
Roman Sidey
53   Posted 08/12/2011 at 16:50:30

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Ian, I'd like to hear you answer a question that was asked on another thread.

If after 10 years of no success, people are still supporting our manager, how many more years of poor football, losing to bad teams, and rigid reliance on a formation that doesn't work because of blind favouritism to players such as Osman, Cahill and Hibbert will you keep supporting him?

To add to that question, if we lose to Tamworth, what will be the excuse?

You can't overhaul an entire playing squad, which is why managers resign and/or are sacked after a bad run.

Absolutely no malice, but want to know the answers.
Ian Tunstead
54   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:23:10

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Roman i dont like to look at if's, so i shouldnt have to discuss what if we get beat by Tamworth, what if the world ends tommorrow. My atitude is what if we beat Tamworth? Either way i remember us getting beat by Shrewsbury about 96 places below us, the shame of it! But in the end it wasnt the end of the world, it was just 1 game. There would be no excuse if we get beat by Tamwoth, good luck to them though, but life will go on because it is just another game, it is were we finish in the league that is more important.

In answer to you first question: Everyone loses to bad teams look at Man Utd getting beat by Palace. The day i will stop backing the manager is the day David Moyes has money to spend on a similar level to say Spurs, Villa or Liverpool and he doesnt compete with them. If he has world class players on the bench and he is still playing Osman on the wing consistantly then he will lose my support.
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:45:43

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All it would do is give Gollum even more excuses to pack our half with defenders and leave even more space between the defender hoofing balls aimlessly to stranded strikers, the midfield would just become sweepers aimlessly drifting in front of the parked bus
Ian Tunstead
56   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:51:37

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Gavin this whole post is about playing 5 in defence, and people say Moyes is defensive.
Marc Williams
57   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:42:49

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Robbie - I'd take any formation at the mo' to break the turgid monotony of this stale 4-5-1 ( 4-4-1-1 ) that Moyes trots out week after week.
I see why you suggest it as at least we'd have round pegs in round holes for once but as others have pointed out is a bit dated.
I'd also worry about Heitinga, Fellaini & Rodwell all being together in that central area. Wouldn't they just get confused & get in each others way, like against Stoke only worse.

Roman- We've already had plenty of 'no shows' against lower league teams under Moyes. So I guess if we fuck up against Tamworth, you can choose any from the long list of tame excuses he's already trotted out.
Roman Sidey
58   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:54:37

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So Moyes coaching and setting a team up and losing to Tamworth wouldn't be the end of the world? Fair. What it would do is prove that he is NOW a losing manager.

He has players that are a lot better than Osman (and Hibbo) on the bench, yet he plays them week in week out. That is why a lot of us have turned on Moyes.

I don't like hypotheticals that much either, Ian, but when the "if" in question is a real possibility (and a disastrous one at that), then serious thought needs to go into.

Here's mine: IF we lose to Tamworth, the only interaction I will have with Everton will be to check whether that ginger twat has left the club I love, at which point I will come back.

Cannot say I'll stick to it because it is almost impossible to give up a team you love so much, but it's how I feel about the situation now.
Col Noon
59   Posted 08/12/2011 at 17:42:36

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Ian #54

"If he has world class players on the bench and he is still playing Osman on the wing consistantly then he will lose my support. "

I cannot recall at any time when I have agreed with anything you have said on TW. Plus we have very different opinions of Moyes, but fair play and honest answer here. Kudos.
Andrew Ellams
60   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:03:57

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Actually Ian we bought Jagielka at the end of a season in which he had been an ever present for a premiership club, admittedly one that was relegated, and was chosen in the preliminary England squad for that year's world cup. So not really a championship player
Gavin Ramejkis
61   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:17:26

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Ian the whole premise of playing 5 at the back isnt five defenders its three with two wing backs a site not seen for donkeys years, my response was Moyes would just use it as an excuse to play five defenders rigidly behind the half way line just as he has done for every set piece for ten years, this formation would give him an even bigger excuse to have defenders on the pitch camped around the goal, the wing backs would just become full backs with even less going down the wings than we have already.
Noel Lynam
62   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:21:27

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"In Football Manager Moyes RATINGS in Defending are 18 of 20, whiloe Attacking ratings are 9 of 20, gee I wonder why that is.
All those stats at Football manager are very true to life stats on the players AND managers, and if you go and look at Anichebe and his ratings you will not be surprised"

Post of the year!

Ten years ago Jimmy, I signed an up and coming Norwegian named Magne Hoseth for buttons then sold him on to Man U for something like 20 million. I'm sure you know him and therefore don't need me to tell you how true to life those stats were for him.
Ian Tunstead
63   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:36:35

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Actually Andrew Sheff Utd are a championship side, they came up for 1 season and went straight beack down.

2001?02 Division One
2002?03 Division One
2003?04 Division One
2004?05 Championship
2005?06 Championship
2006?07 Premier League
2007?08 Championship
2008?09 Championship
2009?10 Championship
2010?11 Championship
Ian Tunstead
64   Posted 08/12/2011 at 19:00:46

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Roman it doesnt prove he is a losing manager, like i said we lost to Shrewbury and i heard the same things said and then we went on to become the most likley tema to break the top 4 for the next 3 or 4 years. Who is a lot better than Osman on the bench at the moment? Drenthe is injured Barkley has come on the the last couple of games and has been awful, Vellios started and did nothing, Gueye came on and did ok to be fair but it is still early days.
Wayne Smyth
65   Posted 08/12/2011 at 18:51:40

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I've got a great idea for a great formation that's guaranteed to win us games:

It starts with a typical back 4.

In midfield we ideally want to be putting central midfielders with no pace on the wing. But if we're forced to play proper wingers or players with pace, then we can always play them on the opposite side of the pitch than they would naturally play, just to mess with their heads..

In the middle of the park if we have a choice, we can play a full-back or a central defender as our holding midfield player, then go with 2 defensive central midfielders.

Our attacking midfield player must at all costs play a minimum of 30 yards from our centre forward and under no circumstances must more than 2 players be in the opponents box at any one time.

Forward passes are outlawed, unless the ball achieves at least 100ft in height.

In order to score a goal, we'll pass the ball sideways to lull the opposition into a false sense of security, then just when they're nodding off jags can launch it 60 yards for our striker to latch on to.

If the opposition have centre backs who are 3-4 inches taller than our striker, then we can use wide areas to whip the ball in for our lone striker to try to win a header against the oppositions taller defenders.

If we keep playing those same tactics every week we're bound to win games. If not, we can always do a financial analysis of the opposition and come to the conclusion that we never had any chance anyway.

I reckon I could get 70k / week for that.....anyone got bill's number?
Ian Tunstead
66   Posted 08/12/2011 at 19:05:00

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Gavin Baines already gets forward like a full back. It sound to me what is being said is that Coleman and Baines should be be playing a more advanced role, is that not the same as playing Baines LM and Coleman RM, dont say that because you will get shouted down for playing them out of position
Lee Courtliff
67   Posted 08/12/2011 at 19:11:39

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Whether 3-5-2 is outdated or not is irrelevant. I personally don't think it is by the way.

The point is to TRY something different.

Why not just try it one week then maybe 4-3-3 another week?

I generally do believe in playing to your strengths but we are not exactly in red-hot form are we? I am not a Moyes hater but there is,in my opinion,no excuse for playing the same formation away at Old Trafford and at home to Cardiff in the cup! By this i mean ONE recognised striker. Every bloody time.

Liverpool played 3-5-2 away at Chelsea and didn't get humiliated. In fact,i think they won. The point is they adapted. Mixed things up a bit. What's so scary about that?

My own opinion is that 3-5-2 suits what we have and should be given a go. Failing that,just try something a bit different. Even if it's just for 45 minutes. Yes this system as its faults but like another poster said,every formation leaves you weak somewhere along the line.

If it fails??? Then we might end up losing a game at home to Stoke without even having ONE shot on target!
Tom Bowers
68   Posted 08/12/2011 at 21:04:49

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Just look at the league table. We are currently rubbing shoulders with the likes of Norwich and Qpr and that is maybe where we belong judged on most of our performances. We have Arsenal coming up and the prospects of a lousy Xmas.
Perhaps we may get an unexpected result against the Gunners but that is as likely as Suarez admitting he is an angel.
Yes, it is likely the usual suspects will play and play the same tactics with Moyes already conjuring up excuses.
Mark Riding
69   Posted 09/12/2011 at 00:11:06

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No Hibbert or Osman ?

Thats just crazy.
Roman Sidey
70   Posted 09/12/2011 at 03:56:54

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I think the best thing about the OP's formation is the exclusion of Hibbert and Osman. It's essnetially the same side that runs out now, with Hibbo being replaced with a forward, and Osman being replaced with a footballer.

Ian, when we lost to Shrewsbury, and it wasn't long enough ago for it to have "3 or 4 seasons" to go on and be a good league side, the same fucking questions should have been asked, and weren't.

For your questions as to who is better than Osman on the bench, my original answer was everyone, but I'll indulge.

Drenthe isn't injured - Moyes has a problem with him because he doesn't track back.

Barkley reminds him of Rooney, and we all know how David feels about that boy.

Vellios is a striker, so no prizes for guessing what Moyes has against hime.

Bily plays extremely well in national colours, and hasn't proven himself on the wing (oh, and also scores specy goals) so shouldn't be considered.

Straq was the highest goal scorer in his native country, which isn't a bad league, so he's obviously bad at defending.

Gueye hasn't done anything with the 23 minutes he's been given on the pitch so he's definitely not up to the standard of the Premier League.

Now lets go retro.

Yakubu didn't score a hatrick in his comeback from injury, so he was deadwood.

AJ only ever ran to the corner flag - what a mug, it's as if the ball was down there or something.

Van der Meyde only set up a goal every time he played, which is much less than all the other players in the team.

Beattie was only a presence up front, not in the defending 18 yd box, so he's useless.

Fernandes only ever made forward passes that pentrated the box, and couldn't pass backward or sidewards to other central midfielders, so he is not worth wasting money we actually have the time on.

Oh, but Hibbo and Osman are worth contract extensions every six months.
Mick Davies
71   Posted 09/12/2011 at 04:05:12

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Bill Shankly said football is a simple game. Just pass the ball forward to players who have made space to attack, but mark the opposition players when you're defending. So easy . . . yet no one's bothered to tell the deadly duo, Moyes/Round about this wonderful phenomenon.
Tony J Williams
72   Posted 09/12/2011 at 12:46:30

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MIck, how come other teams get beat then? I mean it's such a simple concept isn't it? (It doesn't matter that I agree with you and (spit) Shankly (spit) )

"Drenthe isn't injured - Moyes has a problem with him because he doesn't track back" - What proof do you have of this? On the official site it states he has a foot injury...but it's all a conspiracy isn't it? Tin foil and everything.

"Barkley reminds him of Rooney, and we all know how David feels about that boy" What did he feel about him, apart from playing him in 36 games in a season? Also to win a court battle proving Rooney was a liar.

"Vellios is a striker, so no prizes for guessing what Moyes has against hime" - He has been playing him, and the lad has been scoring...strange point.

"Bily plays extremely well in national colours, and hasn't proven himself on the wing (oh, and also scores specy goals) so shouldn't be considered" - Are you seriouslt suggesting Bily is a star and that Moyes has dulled his shine?

"Straq was the highest goal scorer in his native country, which isn't a bad league, so he's obviously bad at defending" From what I have seen of the fat arsed fella, he is gash. he couldn't even get a contract with a Championship side.

"Gueye hasn't done anything with the 23 minutes he's been given on the pitch so he's definitely not up to the standard of the Premier League" - Doesn't look at that to me, but it's the usual from most posters, because a player isn't playing and there can be no real data, he must be brilliant but Moyes is too stubborn to play him!!

"Van der Meyde " - Fuck me......just unbelievable comment
Ian Tunstead
73   Posted 09/12/2011 at 13:03:00

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Mick you are right, it is very simple, it is everyone else who is complicating matters with tactics and formations. They think they are playing a computer game.

As i have said on another post, the players are not robots, they dont need Moyes to tell them where to stand and move to, they have a brain. It is like any walk of life, some people/players use a bit more initiative than others. If Moyes had big money to spend he would buy those players who are good at finding space with the creative flair to create and score chances.
Tony J Williams
74   Posted 09/12/2011 at 13:20:16

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Also, the problem with the simple thing of finding space is that those pesky defenders move aswell!!! Damn it!, if they would just stay still and stop trying to spoil our tactics with their own.
Ian Tunstead
75   Posted 09/12/2011 at 13:26:10

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I feel like I have done jags a disservice, so I want to put that right. Apart from those attributes I mentioned like having pace good heading ability good tackling, some of his other most important attributes his character, he has heart he has determination he has balls he is a fighter and he isn?t a quitter, just a few things that are difficult to measure, that you cant coach and that will not be put in any computer game. And the same goes for Moyes when you start telling me his stats for defending and attack on Football manager computer games. This is the real world we are in here, put this computer game shite to bed now, computer games are for children on Christmas day.
Marcus Kendall
76   Posted 09/12/2011 at 13:21:37

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A manager sets up a team to play in the philosophy he believes is right. Moyes clearly sets up his team to be 'hard to beat' and to play a brand of football that's known in football terms as 'percentage football'. Also his style of football is heavily reliant on set piece goals and as such his teams go into matches hoping to win rather than actually going out to win.

People underestimate how important the manager actually is; with a manager who has more to his locker than percentage football, I honestly believe we'd look a pretty handy side rather than the disjointed side we look like now.

Some of the alternative suggestions of managers on here are laughable though (Holloway, Martinez, McClaren, Eriksson etc) and some managers are seriously overrated (Hiddink, Ancelotti for instance).

I just want Moyes to play his 4-5-1 differently and use the likes of Gueye and Barkley instead of persevering with an out-of-sorts Cahill and playing the likes of Osman/Bilyaletdinov in positions that don't suit them.
Graham Holliday
77   Posted 09/12/2011 at 13:31:40

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Ian (73) - whilst football tactics are clearly not the be all and end all, the implication that they're irrelevant is misplaced in my opinion.

It's widely accepted that Steve Bruce didn't believe in tactics per se, and look where that got him... he bought a truckload of players and ended up with a completely unbalanced side.

I'm not saying you're dismissing tactics entirely (it's not clear from your post), but I do think it's worth discussing.

The structure and balance of a side significantly affects the course of a match, and this isn't confined to a computer game.
Ian Tunstead
78   Posted 09/12/2011 at 14:05:36

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Graham the reason Bruce lost his job was because he was forced to lose his 2 best strikers. No strikers = no goals. Bruce did a very good job with Wigan (better than Martinez is doing) which got him the Sunderland job in the first place, so tactics had little to to with it, it was outside of his control, In the same way it is with Moyes

As i have said i do believe that tactics and formations can make a difference, but they are very overated and over-complicated by people to try to make themselves sound more knowledgeable about the game so their opinion counts for more, the real decider in the majority of games is who has the best 11 players on the field on the day and how motivated they are. The decider over the course of a season is who has the best squad of players, so basically who has the most money or spent most wisley on players.

We can not spend lots of money so we need a manager who can spend wisely which Moyes does relative to other managers.

My own view, is that football is a very simple game and as i said at the begining " My own view on tactics and formations has always been play you best players in their best positions playing to your players/teams strengths by keeping the right balance to the side, ie dont play too many in defence and be weak up front and dont play too many up front and be weak at the back. You might say Moyes is negative and plays too many at the back but if he only has one striker to pick from or a young kid on the bench that makes his tactical options irrelavent ."
Wayne Smyth
79   Posted 09/12/2011 at 16:38:54

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Ian, if the players are not robots, why does Moyes spend almost every match on the touchline shouting each and every instruction to them?

Even Arteta said that at Arsenal the instructions given by Wenger are far simpler, which allows them all to just play a more natural game. Moyes obviously has very little trust in the ability of the players he does have and the masses of instructions are probably just confusing them to the point where they don't know that the hell they can do.

Probably why most of them are international players yet don't seem to have a fucking clue about what to do when they're on the pitch for us.
Tony J Williams
80   Posted 09/12/2011 at 17:06:18

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Wayne, I am guessing that Moyes doesn't just follow the ball, so he may actually see more of what is going on than one individual player so he will need to shout out an instruction if something has happened that a player has missed.

It's very easy for Wenger to not lay out too many instructions because his players are so much more better than ours and don't need to be told not to twat it upfield to nobody.
Ian Tunstead
81   Posted 09/12/2011 at 18:44:12

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Wayne, Jaggs Lescott Baines and the likes only became internationls thanks to playing for us. You are right though, Moyes is constantly shouting at his players to pass it and stopping hoofing it, usualy Jaggs, i have heard him.
Gavin Ramejkis
82   Posted 09/12/2011 at 17:22:25

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Ian if you play Baines and Coleman as wing backs with no wingers in front of them a la the article's line up they'd have to run at least 80-90 yards with no support every time we tried to attack down the wings, it sort of works now as Baines has a makeshift winger or Drenthe in front of him for an overlap. a wing back can only work if they have overlapping cover the midfield in this article has a centre half Rodwell, a defensive midfielder Fellaini and what I hope will be an attacking central midfielder in Barkley but he'd have to cover both wings to have any effect on the wing backs getting forward on his own
Stephen Kenny
83   Posted 10/12/2011 at 10:15:09

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some managers are seriously overrated (Hiddink, Ancelotti for instance).

Seriously, Ancellotti is overated??? Get your head together.
Brian Waring
84   Posted 10/12/2011 at 10:32:25

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If Ancellotti is overrated, then Moyes must be...........

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