Looks like a side mainly set up to defend which doesn't instill me with any confidence.

As usual with Everton. I hope I'm proved wrong.

At least we have some width with Atsu but not the team I would have liked.

COYB

Wrong place to go to for a defensive game, we need 1 goal at the start, and I feel this team selection is more for containment. Hope I am proved wrong.

I wouldnt be relying on the defence myself – at least not too much – we concede a lot of soft goals so we need to score some.

Let's hope Barkley plays the creative midfielder role tonight...

McCarthy and Barry have not worked since halfway through last season and yet still he persists. Naismith and Barkley up top has never worked and yet still he persists. He changes winning teams, alters successful styles but yet always comes back to this same shit formation and shit selection. What is wrong with him?

Garbutt should also still be playing in this comp as he doesn't deserve to be dropped.

I'd have been inclined to start with Osman ahead of Atsu because he will hold the ball more intelligently but as I say it's down to Atsu himself to prove us wrong and prove he is not just a player that shines for Ghana.

The big concern for me is Gareth Barry getting sent off and landing us in a world of shit.

And let's not forget, we still have a game Sunday. I know majority of our focus is on this one, but we also need to look ahead. Gibson and Osman will be needed to breakdown QPR.

Don't like Naismith in midfield and hope Barkley he is pushed up to aid Lukaku as the very good finisher he is, instead of competing for oxygen in the middle. He's a penalty area finisher and should be up with Lukaku.

Disappointed for Kone too, as I think he's have stretched them tonight. But all too late now. Here we go. COYB. Play like you can and get us through. These really are nothing to be over-concerned about, as you should know from last week – if you get into them.

Subs: Kone for Lukaku when everything is done and dusted, Besic to provide additional protection in place of Atsu, Osman for Barkley.

2-1 today, 4-2 overall

Fucking sleepy sloppy defending...

Too fucking right! Why did he start?!? To be honest, I don't understand the team selection in general.

Also, where the fuck were our defensive midfielders for any of their goals?

Lukaku is the real deal.

We need a proper CH in the summer to partner Stones.
Get Alcarez off and Stones on.

Barkley hasn't been in the game. Get Gibson on.

Does any club do self destruct like US??

Atsu and Alcaraz shouldn't be in an Everton team again.

Embarrassment this under Martinez.

The man cannot do defending.

Do Wigan want Alcaraz back? They probably wouldn't want him anyway!

The tie is not over but surely Martinez's tenure is coming to a close, would you trust him with what transfer kitty we have? This season has been one of the worst since Kendall's third stint.

Just looking at Martinez just starting the second half he looks lost . Kiev look to be faster, stronger than us.

Every time the ball goes near them green boots, I worry as its Alcaraz.

We are a laughing stock! It could be a rout!

We are the Wigan team that lost 9-1 at Spurs under Martinez's stewardship.

Kiev have done nothing special yet we have gifted them 4 goals, this echoes the Arsenal match last season in the FA Cup.

Martinez has truly lost me now. I honestly hope we lose at QPR if only to get shut of this amateur clown...

Only Barkley and Lukaku can hold their head up tonight

Too often in the Martinez era, motivation and desire have been questioned – and none more than tonight.

Martinez will never be a good motivator... FACT!

Time to go... and bring Tim Howard with you; embarrassing.

If we can't get rid of Martinez, can Bill not just sack Alcaraz and Howard for being crap, then Martinez will be forced to play better players?

Thanks for the Birthday present Bob, I only asked for a result and a decent performance.

Always the same story..

NO HEART NO COMMITMENT

Martinez needs to GO NOW..

And there are still "Mr Phenomenal" apologists here who are saying it's not over yet. Their level of delusion is unbelievable!

I said the Kyiv game will be a totally different ball game than Young Boys who defended like a bunch of clowns.

Waiting for next set of excuses from this fraud of a manager's apologists.

He has been utter shite this season.

I think whatever the result we need a clear out and have to regroup.

"I'll get you Champions League" ... Oh fuck off! Fine words indeed. Fall on your sword, Roberto, we don't deserve you!

If Alcaraz plays for Everton again, it is a travesty! Horrible performance defensively. What a shit season.

Man Utd still want Coleman? How crap has he been? Not worth £60 grand, I say.

Howard has not got near any of the shots tonight; he has already gone.

Martinez was known throughout his time at Wigan for these exact problems.

I don't want to see anymore of this, I don't know about the rest of the fans but I have had enough now.

Apart from his flawed footballing philosophy and team formations, the first thing you ask your manger to do is to pick the best players available.

To select Howard, Alcaraz and Barry when there are obviously better options available (Robles, Stones and Gibson). To play Barkley and Naismith in the same side week after week.

He will probably say Stones isn't fit but can you just imagine how many headers Distin would have won tonight if his manager didn't exclude him from the squad.

Martinez is just plain useless; get rid now, please!

Shambles at the back! I called, along with many others for us to go after Shawcross in August! There's no way we are conceding 3 of those goals with him in the side!

Defending is an equal part of the game of football which needs equal consideration to attack – pathetic.

If Martinez has any honour, he'll resign tonight.

Alcaraz shouldn't have been on the pitch after half time. Was Stones half fit?!? He must have been to stick with that lump who can't head a ball.

I stopped and thought for a minute or so what it must be like for our talented players, several of whom were not in the starting eleven, to have to put up with all this shit game after game, week after week. Our chairman really needs to realise now he's producing a flop show; in his world he'd have acted with more speed.

Offensively we did okay and we competed in midfield, but our defence was hopeless. The problem is I don't believe Martinez is the man to sort it out. BK has to get rid of him or if he can't afford that, insist on a defensive coach. Simple things like marking tight, not allowing crosses, tracking runners, not backing off so much, working on set pieces. A League Two coach could organise that.

Taken in isolation it's not all his fault tonight, but it's the whole season he's completely wrecked. Of course he makes the occasional save but never, ever enough.

Our entire season has been a total embarrassment from day one and even now it's equally as bad.

What can we seriously expect to achieve with this manager?

It's plainly obvious that last season was primarily down to David Moyes leaving the club in a relatively stable state.

Since the turn of last year, Martinez has slowly stamped his mark much in the same way he did at Wigan, after Steve Bruce kept them defensively strong.

Martinez has killed us.

Defence starts when the opposition gains possession.

Lukaku was great, well done Big feller, well done.

Martinez continuing with chopping and changing is not working and I cannot understand why he doe's not realize it. How many more times doe's he have to continue with Barry as first name on the team sheet and Barkley and Naismith on the same team that has never worked.

I do not like to see people lose their job but how long are the Chairman and Board going to put up with the same problems game after game not addressed?

There is an awful lot of dead wood in that side and we have very few genuinely good players. The decline in our full backs is extraordinary.

We're a poor side at the moment and it's a long road ahead I'm afraid. Get safe this season and then some ruthless, deep thinking is required. Whether we get that is, of course, doubtful.

I'm with you on that one I hope we get reamed, but BK would have to admit he'd made a wrong decision, and what's the chances of that? They all have the mentality of a Word War One general, never fuckin' wrong!!

Good attacking football is fine, but you simply can't ignore the defensive side of the game, which he clearly does.

All these games into this season, I do wonder; what exactly do we train on at Finch Farm? Because it looks like, EPL, Europa, or Cups; our philosophy is "Go get em boys." We deserve better than that.

Howard – gone;
Alcaraz – crap;
Barry – too old;
Naismith – a trier but limited;
Coleman and Baines – found out.

Which players are really top drawer?

Depressing!!!

Barry too slow, and Tim was beaten by a couple of super strikes but for one he was on his arse on the line as the ball whizzed past him off a post. He made a couple of saves but he is poor. Naismith was dreadful. Barkley was great and that is all.....

Sack Martinez now please.

You have 10 days to put a management team in place to get us over the line and rebuild in the summer.

My heart goes out to the supporters that travelled to Kiev tonight. You are Everton FC. One day we will get a manager who matches your and our expectations and loyalty.

Roberto you're a nice man but you are not good enough for this level. You put all your eggs in one basket and handed it to players like Barry, Alcaraz and Howard. These guys already have enough money to retire and don't care. We need young and hungry players and most of all we need a manager who knows how to keep a squad fit and organized.

Today's score is not normal. You are not normal.

Conceding 6 at home to Chelsea is not normal. Bringing Howard back after a string of clean sheets is not normal.
Playing Barkley and Naismith in the same team is not normal.
Throwing Atsu into the biggest game of the year was not fair.
I just want normal. Moyes was arrogant and I would never want him back but there has to be a middle ground somewhere. If we are depressed how does the team pick itself up for Sunday. QPR will show no mercy...
It is out of our hands; only Kenwright can change things now.

Kyiv are at best an OK team, with one very good player. And they battered us.

RM is slowly killing Everton so he needs to go. Inept coach, Inept tactican. The players are confused with his philosophy and they need to be told what to do and need to be coached in all aspects.

I would rather get safe with two or three wins and then sack him. I cannot stand to see Graeme Jones and RM on that bench, they both wind me up. They are both clueless.

And the PL survey had the cheek to say overwhelmingly Everton fans across the board in all categories support the way the club is being run. Where is that coming from after that totally predictable performance?

I'm sick as a parrot but should've expected it....

Fuckin' Alcaraz... fuck off and take Martinez with you.

You can not dress that up and make it look good.

5-2.

Cos.

5-2 is 5-2.

And no amount of "philosophy" will spin that into "plenty of positives".

5-2.

It's still, 5-2.
And realistic managers don't throw away a 2-1 advantage with a 5-2 defeat.

Peter Reid was FUCKING LIVID !
Thanks Reidy.

Martinez must go.
We defend like a non-league team.
Martinez must go.
Alcaraz and Kone are not Premier League standard.
Martinez must go.

Yes, we could have scored a few more but we could also have conceded a few more as well. As somebody said on the live forum – it was only a matter of time before the opponents started finding the net with so many chances on offer. Wolfsburg could have easily racked up five at Goodison and the other games presented plenty of opportunities for our rivals.

To make a mistake is human; to keep making the same mistakes over and over again stinks of incompetence. Loftus Road is not a happy hunting ground and right now I would happily take a point but, if our defence keep on giving so many chances away, we could be in for a horrible end to the season.

Let him go, let him go now... and let us never speak his accursed name again.

"England's last remaining team in European competition were eliminated as Everton were hammed in their last-16 tie against Dynamo Kiev....."

I've mixed emotions about our exit. With our poor league position I always thought the EL was a distraction for us, but at least it did give us something to cheer about in an othewise bleak season. I feel it could be a while before we see European football at Goodison again,and that's a pity.

We need to focus on the league and start gathering points. 3 against QPR on Sunday will do.

I agree with a previous comment - come the summer RM needs to do some serious rebuilding & rethinking. Whether he is the man to do it is questionable !!!
One thing is for sure if results/performances don't improve during the early stages of next season he sholud go

You would rather lose at QPR on Sunday!

He blames individual errors, bad luck, incorrect decisions from officials, how we just need to gain momentum and the results will come, Europa League games affecting Premier League form, etc – rather than admit he just can't get the basics right. He should have been sacked after the Christmas debacle.

That's me done for going to any more games this season and I seriously doubt whether I can make the effort and find the money if Martinez is still there next season....

RM comes out and says he isn't going for a 0-0 (got yer wish there Bobby) and defends like a Sunday league team. It's now obvious that the man doesn't do defence; or that defence is down to possession, rather than boring concepts like closing men down or tracking runners.

This has been obvious all season as goal after goal has been conceded not by brilliant play from the opposition, but a disregard to what I call the basics of football.

We're in a depressing place at the moment.

Bob has taken Moyes’s hard work and turned us from a fit and hard-working team with a strong youth policy and scouting network into this shower in 18 months. I was so hoping he could build on Moyes’s excellent foundations. He’s just been found wanting too many times now. Not a proud night to be an Evertonian!

Shameful, shameful night.

I feel physically sick

I do agree that the back-bone of the team is over the hill and it is going to be very difficult to replace those experienced professionals in the short term all Kenwright's chickens appear to be coming home to roost simultaneously.

We did have bad luck tonight, otherwise we would be in the hat for the next round.

The Europa League has indeed affected our league performances. Other than that... it is down to the manager and the players.

Martinez will relegate our club. If he had any respect for the supporters he would resign. He is an arrogant, bewildered, out of his depth fool.He is a real danger to the future of our club and must be sacked. Who could replace him? Anyone.

If Stones is fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to play. Fucking Alcaraz... What was the point of the Besic sub... saving Jimmy for Sunday? Fuck off!

"We would never come out trying to protect the lead. We will try to be ourselves."

Then I had an awful feeling it would go horribly wrong. There are times to take chances and times to keep it tight but Martinez has never understood defending. We will not achieve success as long as Martinez is manager and Kenwright still holds on to his trainset.

He really shouldn't play ever again! Browning or Galloway cannot be worse than that!

Also was he under orders to play right wing for the last 10 mins?

This is sounding like a character assassination now but didn't he also previously spit at someone? Oh dear! Never again!

If the manager thinks Alcaraz is a better bet than Stones and won't change it at half-time when the evidence is piling up in front of his eyes.

If he thinks that the older, less agile goalkeeper is still better than the younger one who kept three clean sheets in a row last time we saw him.

If he thinks that getting away with Naismith half-filling-in on the left instead of an authentic left-sided midfield player is okay.

If he thinks playing 4 players who will not contribute defensively will work. If he can't organise a team to defend better than a pub team.

It's time to take his half-baked, dreamy, idealistic ideas somewhere else before he does some real damage. He is squandering the best squad we have had for years. Richer clubs will come calling soon and we will be back to square one. He has got no more idea than I have. He should go, hanging his head in shame at that clownish effort.

And he should take the head-in-the-clouds, lovey-dovey, over-emotional Chairman with him. Replace them with someone with a basic tactical brain and a hard-headed business background.

Utter, utter, utter shite and it didn't have to be like that.

PL survival is paramount now and a huge task ahead of BK as he ponders RM's future!

Howard: Shit!! Responsible for the 2nd and 4th goals, poor positioning in both goals. Feel sorry for Robles.

Alcaraz: Shit 180 mins against Kiev. Even not good enough for Wigan at this moment. The weakest link of the team. Responsible for the 2nd and 4th goals too.

Jags and Baines: You must be joking if a team concede 5 goals in Europe have 2 starting defender for the mighty 3 Lions!!
But fair to say, their performance is up to their standard. You cant do anything better with teamates likes Howard and Alcaraz in your team.

Coleman: I hope it is true that Bayern Munich want him for £24M, in my eyes, he is worth not more than £10m. Responsible for the 3rd goal (deflection) and 4th goal. Still need to work for his cross.

Barry: Too slow. He is one of the main reason why we play so shit this season. Responsible for the 1st goal.
Wonder why use him instead of Gibson when Gibson had a good game in last match.

McCarthy: Try very hard in the game, not 100% yet!

Atsu: Try hard but not suit into our system, some fans thought he is shit in this match, but I think he had a decent game. But that clearance lead to our (2nd or 3rd?) conceded goal...

Naismith: Try very hard but not up to our team standard. Should play Kone instead of him.

Barkley: feel sorry for him to hit the post twice. The 2nd one remind me that goal against Man City.

Lukaku: Apart from the goal he scored, he is shit in the match. I don't know why he cant win any header in the match with his strength, height and body? Stupid to get that yellow card too.

Coleman is clearly set on a move away, perhaps he's not that good or perhaps he just doesn't buy into this Martinez philosophy.

Certainly Distin didn't agree with Martinez, the only reason I can think of the crazy exile the Frenchman is currently in when we have to suffer Alcaraz.

Bringing Besic on at 5-1 down?

Leaving Barry on the pitch? Is he shagging him??

What is the point of Atsu?

Why sign McGeady?

Is Tim Howard really Osama bin Laden?

Why drop Robles after three clean sheets?

Roberto Martinez is the modern day Mike Walker.

The man should have been sacked on New Year's Day after the Hull debacle.

Big problems lie ahead. The squad needs to be turned over. How we do that and remain competitive with this fella in charge I don't know. We're so.....weak.

A few seasons of struggle may be upon us.

Unfuckingbelievable! Tim had nothing to do with tonight's result, in fact it could have been 7-2.

This is a team without direction without purpose and without a fucking clue.

There is only one person responsible for the shambles this season.

I watched the Sky Premier Years programme yesterday for 2012-13. There was an interview with Martinez with five games to go were he says " the players at this club are phenomenal" and my favourite " we are not in a relegation fight".

The man is a fraud, we need to sack him now, fuck the compensation. My fear is that avoiding relegation will be some sort of achievement this year. He's had two full years, we are worse than we have been in fifteen years.

All this style of playing is bollocks, fans want winning football, nothing more nothing less.

Martinez is clueless and his loyalty to Howard, Alcaraz, Baines, Barry, & Kone will hopefully result quite rightly in his dismissal.

Everyone can see it, everyone!!!!

The truest guideline to our form this season has been our league results.

We have consistently failed to reproduce the good form and performances we’ve shown in the EL in the league.

It was inevitable that, eventually, our true form this season - our league form - would be reproduced in Europe. That’s exactly what happened tonight.

DK are a very tidy team, but far from top drawer. In key areas across the pitch they marked tighter, defended better, pressed harder, passed more incisively and were more clinical and lethal in front of goal.

People shouldn’t go all shouty about Howard conceeding five goals. He was beaten by a couple of worldy strikes and had little or no protection for the other goals suffered.

Other than the mad 3 minutes when we conceeded 2 goals, Jags had another fine game. Alcaraz, by contrast ...

In recent weeks people have bemoaned the immediate recall of Howard and Baines on return from injuries. You would think that Martinez would place John Stones in that category, but instead he opted for Alcaraz who was already badly exposed in the 1st leg.

In yesterday’s pressie, Roberto repeated the statement he made during our woeful run at the turn of the year: Everton is not set up to NOT concede goals.

Never mind what we as Everton supporters feel about that statement. How many professional coaches in Roberto’s sphere will hear that and scoff, snicker and sneer at such naivety?

The hardest task in football is scoring goals. If you do not work on PREVENTING goals, you task in scoing enough goals to actually win or even draw a football game is more difficult. A solid defence gives you a sound foundation on which to build and play more elaborate football. Currently, we have neither.

It’s on record. From Roberto’s own mouth. From revelations by the players. Roberto Martinez doesn’t do defence.

Well I’m sorry, but such purist ’philosophy’ equates to dereliction of duty by a professional coach IMO.

It’s likely we will avoid relegation this season, more by dint of the inadequacies of 3 teams being worst than us, rather than by our own efforts.

At season’s end BK has a decision to make, there’s no doubt about that. And it’s my belief that come the start of next season, Sr. Martinez will still be in situ at EFC.

And then ... who knows what his 3rd season will bring? The joy of his 1st season, or the despair and frustration of this?

Given his history to date, I’m inclined to the latter rather than the former. And if that is the case, how much longer can we allow Roberto to remain in charge at Everton?

And for anyone offering the inane response "but who could we attract better than Roberto?" The PL is awash with money. It’s an attractive challenge both financially and professionally for managers and players alike. There will be no shortage of attractive candidates, domestic or foreign, have no fear of that...

I agree with you, that is what I basically said. Whoever is managing Everton come the start of next season has a job on their hands, for like a lot of fans have already pointed out, we do have a lot of players that are not good enough, and we will find it hard to hold to big Rom now I think.

If true, that a Champions League clubs come calling and offer Kenwright a profit, I think he will be gone. I believe the current manager will be given maybe 10-12 games to restore confidence in the chairman, the players and the fan base. If he can't, he will be gone.

But It really strikes me that EFC must be like a lot of work places... if your face fits? This has become blatantly apparent!

The back line drops so far back when out of possession that the two defensive midfielders are a million miles away from the front four. In my opinion we need a high back line and play 2 regular midfielders instead of deep lying midfielders. Have two wingers who track back (as lennon has) and then let Barkley and Lukaku do the damage. Get rid of all the dead wood in the summer and get young players with something to prove. oh and don't forget a high tempo.

It's not a criticism of Naismith either. The guy is a forward constantly and repeatedly asked to play in a position he has zero aptitude or feel for because the guy asking him to play there has no fucking clue about anything in terms of football or playing a balanced team.

Howard pulled off a good save tonight, but we have to look at the bigger picture, that he, along with Alcaraz and Distin are not up to standard. And it's Martinez's fault for not sticking with Robles and not purchasing a top CB in January.

I then started thinking that this is all in my head. "A club of our standing." What standing would that be? We have been disgraceful, as a team and a club, for nigh on 30 years. Why should we believe that we deserve to have a tactical genius as our manager?

Maybe it’s all the fault of aul arses like myself, brought up on Catterck’s teams of the 60s. Maybe we have indoctrinated too many younger fans with concepts such as Nil Satis Nisi Optimum. Maybe it’s time for a reality check... apologies for the cliche.

We are nowhere near the best on or off the field. Sorry I’ll retract that a little, much of our work in the community is exemplary. Even today we were aiming to win hearts and minds in the Ukraine.

Until recently I was one of those who thought the likes of Mark Hughes, Tony Pulis, Steve Bruce were never of the right "stripe" to manage a club of our class and history. But therein lies the rub. Whilst we have history we have bugger all class on the park.

Tonight we were out-fought, out-muscled and out-classed by a decent Kiev side. A side that was very beatable in my opinion. We were woeful in defence and sloppy with our passing. We appeared unfit, unathletic and lacking in belief.

Forget De Boer and forget about exotic sounding coaches from Spain and elsewhere. When Roberto is shown the door he will be replaced by a workaday coach who will know the value of fitness and running off the ball.

And, please God, someone who knows the value of having a bloody big yard dog at the back who can head the ball, marshall his defence, and scare the shite out opponents and team mates alike.

Everything that Martinez has done this year, as been wrong, and the same defensive frailties that blighted the start to our season just haven't been addressed. I'm all for giving managers time, but I'm afraid that mine has ran out tonight.

Hate losing any cup tie, but when the opposition are not great, and we beat "our fucking selves", it's even more painful. For a team that can't defend crosses, why don't we even try and stop the cross in the first place?

Kone looks out of his depth; not a Premier League player. Barry looks like he is in a light training session. no passion. Bring back Moyes ....

BK's got a massive decision to make. Either sack him now, tonight on the way back preferably, or come out and support him. Slimy Bill has been unusually low profile this season unlike last season.

My biggest concern is, where do we go from here? Can we keep our better players for next season? Will Martinez have the balls to clear out the deadwood? Will he have the funds to radically change the team?

I've supported Martinez as much as I can but after tonight's result I've lost faith in him. I think he's an honest, well intentioned guy but I now feel like he's out of his depth and he's been unable to overcome the loser mentality which permeates our beloved, but sad, club.

A different perspective? Trying to blame an individual for what is an endemic lack of purpose is crazy. Tim had no chance for any of the goals in fact he made two great saves. Tonight Alcaraz was terrible but he was bought by the manager.

This is the worst side I have seen for 15 years and that's not much of a comparison. The man is a fraud, the players don't believe in him. We could still get dragged into relegation especially if we get beat on Sunday. Still at least the School of Science has been reopened.

Martinez should be sacked purely on the basis he didn't sub him at half time (let alone for the fact he is just a Spanish Mike Walker who likes to pass it around at the back a bit).

As a fan (supposedly), even BK must surely be tempted to pull the trigger after tonight.

Obviously I think Martinez, and Alcaraz for that matter, might do the honourable thing and at least consider committing seppuku at our next home game.

Whatever happens just get 'em out of our club.

I said in a post before the game kicked off that Yarmelenko was a threat and unfortunately he proved me wrong with their opener. I am sure QPR having watched the game will be throwing balls into the box and looking for knock downs.

Regarding crosses has the charlatan told Coleman not to cross but always try and dribble past the defender. There were times tonight an early cross could have caused them a problem, but this refusal of Coleman to cross a ball early has gone on all season. I think the only time he has crossed first time this season we scored against Newcastle away.

I just hope and pray that we get enough points to keep us in the Premier League and if we do it will be in spite of RM and not because of anything he has done.

Fucking fed up with the lot now. Been fed up with it plenty of times but this is just getting me down. That lad crying at the game just shows what football can do to you. Didn't see any players crying.
Got £1300.00 put away for mine and my grandson's season tickets, looking very suspect now.

"Dynamo prospered from an identical route less than two minutes later. Alcaraz was making a habit of heading thin air and lost out to Miguel Veloso while challenging for another long ball out of defence>"

Says it all really...

The season is not over, we are getting closer and closer to relegation and we do not have anyone who looks like they can stop this happening.

Wasn't interested in this "Handicap Cup" – that's all that it was to me, but I wanted them to win tonight, simply for the fans who went there.

Won't say anything about the manager because I think it's pointless, he's for the rest of the season, even if he takes us down. The whole club is in a very bad way.

He should have been fired in January and we may pay a heavy price for indulging him, but it's not the fans decision to make, so we have to hope the team can get those points and reach safety as quickly as possible.

Why are these players making mistakes week in week out? Because there is no defensive organization thus forcing them making mistakes.

Why is there no defensive organization? Because the Charlatan in charge doesn't know how to organize a defense!

Is it a surprise that during his 4 years at Wigan, on average they conceded 15 goals more than the previous 3 years when you hear this Fraud says working on defensive shape is a waste of time?

He is a snake-oil salesman, a fraud of the highest order! Bill, just get shot of this fraud before he takes this great club to administration a la Wigan.

Trying to out-score the oposition away from home in front of 77,000 fans and a team that hasn't lost all season... what a fool!

He's mad!

We communicated earlier, you were trying to argue that all is well under the Martinez regime, maybe you are not quite so confident tonight.

You are right my season ticket is in the Park End, never tried to start a chant though. However, if you want to lay blame at Tim's door for tonight, or in fact this season, you are nuts. This manager does not know what he's doing, he needs to go.

"I agree there were instances when we could have defended better but there is not a lot you can do about goals that go right into the top corner."

Except, perhaps, Roberto, close the twats down so they don't have the time and space to shape up to shoot in the first place. Has that ever occurred to you? No, didn't think so.

If only we had the same fortune, the two Barkley chances only needed to be have been 2 inches to the left and we are probably talking about going through and who we would get out the hat next round!

Roll on QPR and let’s now concentrate on getting as many point as possible!

My biggest concern is this idiot will get us relegated this season. I know some people think that there are at least three teams worse than us, but it only takes one of them to go on a run like Sunderland did last year & Roberto to carry on with his awful team selections & tactics, lack of training and we could be in serious trouble.

My other concern is we are already carrying a lot of deadwood, McGeady, Alcaraz, Distin, Gibson with his injury problems, Howard, Atsu, (Alcaraz & Distin will be released & Atsu will go back to Chelsea) & Kone, with his injury problems, Barry, Jags who has come good recently is no spring chicken and it looks increasingly likely that Garbutt is going to be off in the summer for nothing. Add to that Miralles wants out, we need a major rebuild of the team and I dant want Martinez to have anything to do with it.

Mirallas hot and cold and seemingly couldn’t give a toss most of the time.

Lukaku just finding some form more than 2 thirds in to the season.

Coleman, looks like the player who first arrived at the club.

McCarthy the only one who busts a gut and puts it in every game.

The players have to take responsibility as well whether they don’t like or don’t agree with the tactics or formation, effort shouldn’t drop just because they are sulking.

I never thought I'd lose my pride of Everton but they were an embarrassment and a disgrace tonight. Not once did it look like any player or manager wanted to do anything about us going out. Accepted it meekly like the perennial losers they are.

I'm so glad half of these clowns will be in the retirement home by the time our next bottling opportunity comes round.

Keeping Alcaraz on was the biggest boo boo for me. Martinez and Dennis Lawrence clearly know nothing about defending, for firstly thinking Alcaraz was good enough in the first place for Everton, and secondly why they thought he should be still on the pitch when he couldn't even head standard crosses out of the box, even a Sunday league player knows you need to attack the ball on a cross.

We'll have a big transfer kitty in the summer because I think the Belgium's will be gone. As will the deadwood like Distin and Alcaraz. But I'm not sure Martinez is the manager to undertake the necessary rebuild.

We should go all out to try and turn Koeman's head and hope he can spend the money as wisely as he has done at Saints.

No more excuses, we need to see at least TWO more wins to avoid the lowest number achieved in Everton's ENTIRE history and then we have an exciting pre-season to look forward to as the manager goes into his third season. And he will!

You see how Roberto's positivity is rubbing off on me now that I've taken note of all who have dubbed me a curmudgeon. Europe isn't everything after all. (Although it does provide a ready excuse for the abysmal showing in the Prem. I wonder what the excuse will be next time.)

One more thing, I went totally crazy seeing Everton playing with 3 defensive midfielders. Actually, if any new manager, think for a second to use more than one defensive midfielder can right go himself.

Alcaraz missed the header for the second goal, but surely to god, Howard should have been punching his fucking head off, when the ball was in the air.

My stance on Roberto as manager as always been very clear since the 'Roberto Out' faction started: He had my support while we were still in the Europa League.

We're not in the Europa now. So if he's sacked, so be it!

And, to cap it all, Loftus Road is far from a happy hunting ground for us. The first time I went there, back in October 1975, we got a 5-0 thumping!

Jags has been excellent over the last few weeks and has done his best to drive us on by example but he just hasn't got the authority and nastiness that captains must have.

Frail in our management and frail on the pitch. Someone's got to sort that out pronto as our first objective.

He says: "We have to be attack-minded and when we are on the ball, we need to be a team that wants to score goals and make it very much eye to eye and an open game.

"That's what I'm looking for tomorrow, that we can make it a game full of chances for us and, of course, that will bring chances for them.

"I don't want it to be a game where they are a home team, and let them see if they can break us down. That would be a big mistake."

Roberto Martinez – Post-Match Press Conference:-

"I don't think it was a case of being in a position where we couldn't impose ourselves. Once we scored the away goal, I thought we would be stronger and tighter in our performance but it was the kind of night where everything they tried went into the back of the net.

"We always looked like a threat going forward and that we could score goals but the type of game it was, there were opportunities for both sides and our chances didn't go in."

Confused? A little perhaps. My nightmare scenario, Everton go into the last game of the season needing a point to ensure safety. Roberto says we mustn't fall into the trap of out-and-out defending and, due to a wonder goal by Barkley, the Toffees take the lead with a quarter-of-an-hour remaining but, instead of booting the ball in every direction aka Blackburn Rovers circa 1995, Alcaraz and Stones get into a tangle and allow Spurs to equalise and a minute from time a careless error from TH allows the ball to squirm under him from a back-pass....

Noooooooooo! I can't take any more.

As long as Alcaraz is not playing we've got a chance

Even bringing in a interim manager with a hard nosed attitude should see us safe and this time BK may look for a manager that is not a recommendation from a pal, but do a thorough background check for a experienced proven manager with a winning record, not someone with a philosophy that he believes may work, but cannot do anything else when it does not.

Martinez this season reminds me of the designers of the Titanic who said it was unsinkable as it was going down at the bow.

Would take a point now to continue the crawl to 35 points.

I am not going to comment on the game tonight – I'm glad I was stuck in a plane and missed it.

My only red flag would be whether he could cope with the big ego's in the dressing room (something I suspect has been a problem for Martinez) but the way we're going a few of those big names will be gone so he could be the right appointment in the long term. Someone will snap him up and I'm sure he'll make a top Premier League manager.

Miralles has one year left on his contract he isn't a regular starter for the Belgian team & anyone who does some research on him will realise he's injury prone and inconsistent, I can't remember the last time he played a full 90 minutes. He'll go for 8-10 mill absolute tops.

As for Lukaku were paying Chelsea installments for him, so whatever we get, will go to paying them off first and I do not believe the press rubbish that Wolfsburg will pay £33 mill for him this summer.

If there is any decent transfer kitty most likely it's going to come from the sale of Coleman, Barkley, Stones or McCarthy and that's if the board release all the money from player sales.

We need Martinez out, a new manager to oversee a clearout & the board need to put up the funds for a team re-build with what I fully expect to be the sale of at least one of our key players.

I can also see Man City making a big money move for Ross to help their rebuilding process; there is no way our top players will stay working with Martinez

And that's just one thing, of many, about a bloke who I thought was getting his fucking act together. As for the rest of them... Again, I ask, what the fuck do they do all week?

If you told me now that RM is a paid agent of one of our rivals, I'd believe you unquestionably. How can one man make the so many mistakes when he has the opportunity once or twice a week to put it right? It beggers belief. There isn't a single professional manager who could be more of an omnishambles. The man doesn't understand the basics of football. He's destroying some very capable players. Howard and Alcaraz aside.

Baines was one of the worlds best in his position, he's now been completely blunted. Barry is an experienced, intelligent player with a good range of passing, he and McCarthy are forever dropping back into the space left by the centre backs being told to split, Coleman was progressing at a Bale rate, he's now had his confidence destroyed. Barkley tried to take the game to them, RM shouted at him to relax. Jagielka is a great covering defender, he's now firefighting an overworked defence and trying to find space on the left wing where RM should be playing someone Jags could pass to.

Fuck me, how many times has he played 433? It doesn't work with the players we have. In fact, I'm not sure it has ever worked unless it's a 4-3-3 with genius players like Suarez/Messi/Neymar. But, to play 4-3-3 with one winger and two No 10s is idiotic. It doesn't even need to get off the paper onto the pitch for it to be obvious that it won't work. He's been doing it all season. IT'S FUCKING MARCH, YOU CLUELESS DICKHEAD, IT DOESN'T WORK!

His selection decisions have been bizarre. Taking out a 3 clean sheet Robles to play an out of form Howard? Dropping Gibson? Eto'o on the wing? Barkley on the wing? Naismith on the wing? Alcaraz over Stones? No subs at half-time? No subs at Southampton?

So who should we get in? How about we look at Paul Jewel and Steve Bruce, who did a better job than him at Wigan, in the first instance and then lift our sights slightly higher for anybody else. Hoddle, Reid, Pearce, Smith (yes, that one), Royle or ANYBODY who has a basic understanding of how to set a team up. Because, I'm telling you, if we stay up this season it will be because of luck.

UNACCEPTABLE.

For that reason, Mr Martinez, you're out.

What difference does it make anymore. I think we should just leave Bobby at it for another few years and see what happens. Just totally dejected at this stage. I feel like the Everton of the last ten years gave it us hope. When I look at it now, I think we might take years to recover and becoming a West Ham or Sunderland that constantly change manager in pursuit of midtable isn't an option for me.

Give Martinez four years and play it out. If he can sort the defence and organization out I think there is something to work with that might, just might give us an edge over mediocrity in the coming years.

Take care blues. It's a hard night for all of us. If anybody has the number for an Evertonian helpline post it up there.

The frustrating thing is Kiev are not that good but we made them look like Real Madrid. If you look at it from their perspective they scored two belters from outside the box but were given 3 goals by the opposition, who also hit the post on two separate occasions, and got every decision going from the officials; fine margins for me.

I get people are upset but come on have a little think at least before posting such shite.

I have (and you can look at my previous posts) for some time had a massive fear this idiot is going to get us relegated.

Sad to see two giants of the great 1985 side making the obvious points that all bar one person can see.

I'm guessing he left Stones out due to his mistake that led to the red card. One mistake would have been a vast improvement tonight.

Drop Robles after 3 clean sheets; decent display on Sunday, so change half the team – just a couple of examples.

The most inept defensive performance I have witnessed since playing at Stewart Road playing fields in 1960 for St. Winnies. Please God, I pray to you to get rid of that Catalan Clown.

Please Mr Kenwright, get rid of Alcaraz, Kone, Barry, McGeady and (I hate saying this) possibly Martinez before the lot of them really, really screw up this wonderful football club.

Our great club is broken right now and it is all down to Martinez. He should have gone months back and wouldn't have survived at any other club. His team selection and set up tonight once again showed how clueless he is.

And to make it worse, Brugge are going through and if Kiev get them in tomorrow’s draw, it’ll make tonight’s humiliation even more difficult to take.

Martinez won’t be sacked now. It’s far too late. He’ll get the start of next season. If it’s a continuation of this season’s pitiful form surely he’ll be sacked.

To play Alcaraz in a big European game when he’s at best a Championship player was a shocking decision, one that has cost us massively.

The same typical crap spouted after the game too. The season is over. Now we need to ensure survival and sort it out in the summer. A massive transfer window for Martinez.

What will be the managers excuse tonight? Tired? Bad pitch? Injuries? Osbornes budget? The eclipse?

I've had enough. We are a laughing stock!

Go there and park the bus! Are you serious? Did you see the two goals they scored that we didn't just gift them with comical defending?? Would anyone bet against something similar happening if we sat back and invited them to take pot-shots all game???

I think the manager was right in his assessment that simply trying to defend a one-goal lead (with the away goal as the trump card) would just have led to us chasing the game at some point sooner or later anyway, and I thought that before the game so there is no hindsight coming into play.

Kiev are a decent side (there are plenty of their players I would be interested in, including their whole back FOUR) and had the tools to make the most of good balls into the box. Yes, the defenders could / should have done better but I am not convinced Stones would have done any better against the aerial route they exploited. Distin at his best may have, but when did he last display that? Alcaraz lacks pace and spring and they worked on that and finished clinically.

Baines or Garbutt? Against Yarmelenko (their main threat) I'd probably go for my most experienced defender too, but I would have put a strong mobile player on that flank as well to really try to isolate him. I think Besic instead of Naismith would have been a better option.

I don't think Barry did an awful lot wrong, and I can't believe the stick Coleman is getting. He has struggled for a lot of the season but has been back to his best recently and worked his socks off again tonight. Atsu is not the wing-man he needs / merits.

The scoreline flatters them. There was a lot less between the teams on the night than it suggests. Either of Barkley's efforts that struck the woodwork go in and, at the time they happened, the momentum could have swung to us completely. Same for Osman's stonewall penalty, which (if converted) would have put us one decisive goal behind with 20 minutes to go.

Howard may not have made any direct howlers tonight but he is yesterday's man. If Martinez can't see that he should go. Actually, he should just go anyway.

Mike (#159) most succinct synopsis of tonight's debacle. I salute you.

Reid, a playing legend but bar a couple of seasons at city hasn’t done anything;
Smith (yes that one) I don’t need to explain surely;
McLaren, doing okay in the Championship and has in his defence won things abroad but historically not done too well in England’s top flight as a No 1;
Pearce, not long been sacked by forest for a very poor record;
Paul Jewel...another Idon’t really need to explain;
Joe Royle, again a club legend but a mangerial one too but that was 20 years ago, managing now is a different proposition than then.

They are my reasons and what I base my comment on.

"Lump some high balls into their 6 yard box, they'll panic. Run into their defensive midfield, they've got no pace. Shoot hard, looping shots from distance, you'll get the space and their goalie is not very agile".

Any of us could have said it.

Personally I'd kick Martinez off the park as soon as we are safe. He simply hasn't got a clue, unfortunately for us all he will be here next season. I would think at the very least he should be sacked if we are not in the top 8 come the first 10 games of next season; however, I don't think he'll go even then. The unimaginative board and Kenwright will be content if he keeps the club in the PL. How do we sack Kenwright is the question?

Does anybody on the evidence of our performance in the Premier League, and tonight which was an accident waiting to happen, honestly believe that he should still be at our club next season?

Most of us have been banging on about it for months. He doesn't learn... he didn't play his love child against Newcastle because he was suspended. He has made a good effort of taking us down this season, but give him another season and he will finish the job.

RM and his backroom staff are incompetent. This is a good squad but RM is a dreamer and doesn't know how to manage them.

He has had two years and I cannot see how it will get better. Just get rid of him now, BK. Stop dreaming and wake up and see what most of us have seen all season.

He is a salesman and not a football manager... let him be positive and take his philosophy, momentum and bullshit to somewhere like Blackpool. Show this halfwit the door.

But...

WTF!!! Alcaraz was absolutely dreadful and at fault for the 2 goals that broke our back. He was fucking awful!

And...

It's time for the worm to turn for me. WHY OH WHY ROBERTO did you start him in front of Stones?? Was Stones still sick? WTF?

Fucking hell if Barkley's 2 beautiful shots go in and don't hit the post! But no excuse we were horrific defending - and ON THE ROAD PROTECTING A ONE GOAL LEAD!!!

Honestly!

Season over. Fucking hell. Just pissed!

He could have brought Besic on for Atsu or Barkley before half-time he should definitely have made a change at the break but he didn't and we paid for it.

Yes on another night the bounce of the ball could have favoured us but let's be honest we've had our share of luck in the previous matches in this competition and if a team is relying on luck then it's unlikely to win many matches on a regular basis and certainly not a tough competition like the Europa League.

It is a good thing to have someone try and take a different perspective. However, how many times over the last months has this been necessary? I honestly believe that it is not an over-reaction to describe Martinez's management his season as totally inept. Martinez might be the nicest guy in the world but to believe he is not fit to manage our club is not bile.

Reid took Sunderland to 7th, until last season Martinez had never finished in the top half. Smith Managed the club under agent Johnston. Hoddle was bombed out of football because he had medieval beliefs in something called "god" that used to be big with primitive fuckheads in the 16th century. Jewel and Bruce all did a better job, albeit without a flukey cup, in the league.

Anyone is more capable than a man who has made the same mistakes, to his and our detriment, for 11 months. I don't want another ban for questioning the support of a fellow ToffeeWebian Evertonian but, how can you support the club from your current position of denial? Seriously brother, wake up, anyone could do a better job.

When a frog feels threatened it stays stock still and keeps it's eyes wide. I'd take Kermit over Martinez. Same side line behaviour but at least we'd get a song.

Why does Martinez make the same mistakes continually? No proper shape, Barkley and Naismith together, plays an unconvincing Alcaraz, Barry ahead of Gibson, only 1 up top

Boring, pedestrian, unimaginative and our defensive shape lacks discipline and true ruggedness

Under Moyes, a clean sheet every 2 or 3 games was inevitable. Under RM its a friggin miracle.

Would love to change the manager but we all know Billy boy isn't about to pay him to walk away having already paid £6m to get the did AND having given him a new contract.

We're stuck with this fool folks. Sorry.

Football is a simple game made complicated by idiots. Fitness levels have improved and the premier league games are faster but the basics are the same, just what fantastic evolutionary and futuristic tactics did Kiev use tonight?? Long shots at a keeper who does not use his feet or hands and long diagonal balls to a big lad up front, fucking transcendental.

Successful football has the right balance of graft and flair, always has and always will and it has been around for over 150 years.

Nothing but the best!!! conceding 5 goals to any team is far from the best. I, like many others, actually wanted to win something that was very winnable. 9 finals in a relegation battle is just a disgrace. (It will be more like 9 dismal performances and saved by others being worse.)

Season over till August (see post 148, for my opinion Si if interested)

One of our most promising players basically being completely embarrassed and belittled being brought into that game probably to save "better players" for the weekend.

That's just fucking crap. Roberto's lost me.

Atsu, Alcaraz, and fucking Barry starting in a must win, save the season game. Put your best players out there Roberto! Couple that with Howard in net who's been shite...

I can't support this man any longer despite my love of his vision for the club. This game's just lost me.

HORRIFIC. AHHHH!!!!

Alcaraz wasn't even GOALSIDE (!!!) for their second goal. That's like elementary defending 101.

WHAT THE FUCK!

I have to rant... apologies.... GODDAMMIT!

You think any one from your list would do a better job, I don’t! A fluke cup win? Did they win it? I’m prepared to give next season a chance to see what Martinez can do. He’s marmite at the moment, I don’t like marmite personaly but Martinez I do and my opinion is that he can and will turn it back around but if he doesn’t will admit to being wrong.

Even then we had a chance all the way up until their unbelievable 5th.

Like I said, the scoreline flatters them. 3 goals were absolute gifts and therefore, preventable whatever the players do in training.

If you look at the stats on the BBC website, we had 20 shots to their 19, both teams managing 8 on target. They buried five, we netted twice and hit the bar twice. Both keepers made at least one good save each. We had nine corners to their 5 (if memory serves).

As I said, it was the defence that lost us the game. While I am losing patience with Martinez, I think tonight is down to the players. Some of them just aren't good enough. Considering Jags is an England player, it's disappointing he can't be more commanding in the box, even with a numpty along-side of him.

So, whatever happens, we will have no European football at all next year. It's a domestic only season, hopefully in the Premiership, Sunday's game is a 6-pointer now.

Martinez promised us Champions League football. Nearly two years in, we know that can't now happen until his fourth season in charge. Whether he deserves or will get even a third must now be in question. Unless we see a marked improvement in the last nine games he has to go in the summer. If, heaven forfend we lose to QPR I for one will be tempted to say get rid now and find a caretaker to see us to safety.

At the inception of the PL - instigated by our very own chairman (Phil Carter) and chairman of the old 4 divisions that constituted the Football League remember - we were part of the ’Big Six’ who lobbied for the creation of an elite league - Everton, the ’poo, Manure, the Arse, Spuds and Villa. Arguably, of all 6 lobbyists, we have failed to take full advantage of the commercial riches the PL has delivered.

All the others have refurbished, extended, modernized or even moved stadiums. Their corporate facilities and commercial deals puts us to shame. All have benefitted from changed ownership.

In that same time frame you have seen clubs from the 3rd and 4th rank of England’s league system rise to the PL on the back of a clear business plan and strategy. Some fleetingly, some yo-yo clubs, some now consolidating their PL status in new stadiums, with great academies, effective scouting and recruitment, and on solid financial footing, such as Southampton and Swansea - 2 clubs Everton is likely to finish behind this season.

Their starting point was lower than Everton’s 24 years ago when the PL came into being. Chelski and Shitteh were the poor relations of their more illustrious neighbours. But with a plan, a vision, look where they are today.

RM and the players have vastly underperformed this season. Any one still disputing that is in denial.

That said, I have to believe that under the right ownership and management, my club, your club, our Everton, can again compete for trophies. That we can break that glass ceiling Conor speaks of.

I for one am not for calling quits on my hopes, ambitions and aspirations for the (still, in my eyes...) the mighty blues.

The cardinal sin was playing Alcaraz in front of Stones, no?

It was Alcaraz directly responsible for us conceding 2 goals. Martinez chose him over Stones.

It may be down to the players but one of those players was chosen by our manager ahead of England's brightest defensive young star.

End of. Correct?

The ideal Martinez is trying to play towards is great if the team has the right players. The current team hasn't got those types of players - the Arsenal/Barcelona type of players. In the absence of that skillet the team has to be setup to focus on its strengths and it simply does not do that.

John Stone on the bench - why? The best period of last season was with Stone and Distin as the CB pairing. Some of the most solid games this season had Stones as CB.

Howard has been a liability for the last few seasons. Yes, he's had good patches but a solid defence in front of him saved him last season. Robles looked far more in control than Howard ever had this season.

Lukaku is/was a great signing but we rarely play to his strengths. Why leave him isolated? He requires service which he's desperatly been lacking this season. Yes, he's been lazy at times but all strikers need the ball passed to them.

Midfield is far too full of good Central players being asked to fight for too few positions or be played out of position. The team is crying out for proper wingers who know how to supply crosses. Yes Lennon is a winger but I'd never have classified him as quality. He's always been about style over substance with the final ball always lacking.

We're out of the Europa which means we can focus on fighting a relegation battle which the team should never have been in and are likely to survive purely because others are worse.

Marines surprised me last season but enough is enough.

So, Roberto, apart from yourself, who's fuckin' fault was it, then?

Please Pete, don't debate me we'll go round in circles.

How any Evertonian can defend Martinez after witnessing our season in microcosm is beyond me and my powers of reason.

Between them, the back 4 and keeper have, wait for it, 218 caps between them!!!! They ought to perform better than that. For two of the goals in the first half the defenders were all at sea with balls knocked into the box. You expect international footballers to be able to do better. Baines and Jags are England regulars FFS - SIXTY THREE ENGLAND CAPS BETWEEN THEM (sorry to shout). They simply must do better.

I agree my preference would've been to see Stones play. I can only imagine he is not fully fit, or the manager is not 100% sure he is.

We may have been unlucky hitting the post twice but overall the team selection with players playing in positions that has not worked before, and lack of a creative midfielder is simply poor management decisions and this late in the season is "simply unacceptable "

Our next home game is against Southampton, so what about using the "Sunderland" method ? If we are playing the usual crap with the usual crap player choice and are drawing or losing then we all just leave at half time.

Then maybe BK and the money men will have a rethink? Threaten their income and they will capitulate. Premier league survival is paramount.

Of course I hope the other Everton turn up and we thrash them, but I am not optimistic...

I never wanted him and was worried sick when BK brought him in, but if you think about it logically like an intelligent sane person we've just gave the most important role at our club to a guy who's who survived relegation on the last day twice then took them down playing PIATB tactics repeatedly even when they were conceding 4's and 5's!!! He won the Fa cup but so what anyone can get to a final and have the luck on the day the bread and butter the day to day graft is the league. Why on earth would you put our great club in the hands to of this blagger!

The guy is well out of his depth he is not a premier league manager like Alcaraz is not a premier league player. Get him out quick!

Lets face it, what's the point really in hanging on to the guy when the vast majority are against him and his playing styles, even his own players don't entirely agree with the principles.

Once you lose the fans, there is no going back, just ask Paul Lambert. Aston Villa knew the time had come to act and it's saved their season by the looks of it getting shut of Lambert for a fresh new hungry manager in Tim Sherwood.

Roberto Martinez is a fraud, his signings are useless baring three players, two of which we paid top dollar for and are no-brainers. The sooner we can get him gone, the better. Bill needs to grow a pair and get a manager in with a brain, then if that man can get us back into top half of the league again (where we clearly should be may I add) then we need to continue to address the situation and work out if we have options to employ a better manager at that particular time.

I say this because we are back to a lower band of manager than what we may have had a choice of a few months back when we were still in the FA Cup and Europa League, we're as now we may struggle to attract a top foreign manager. Players like Howard, Osman, Pienaar, Distin, Hibbert and Barry have had their day, whereas players like Alcaraz have never and will never have his day.

We have too many players who will not ever get us into the Champions League, like Kone, the hard-working but not good enough Naismith, the useless McGeady. To top this, Martinez has destroyed Ross Barkley this season by playing him out of position too many times at the expense of Naisy and he's wrecked his confidence as a result.

There is so much wrong inside our club it's untrue, he has to go asap so as we can begin to rebuild.

Tonight’s gone, surely even Martinez will revert back to how we set our play up against Newcastle.

What will hack me off is getting a win against QPR, then Barry walking straight back into the team again.

Totally shocking tonight, I really feel for the loyal Blues who travelled and had to witness that shocking performance, you did us proud, shame the same could not be said about our team.

Time after time we are let down by players failing to do the basics but I can't see the common thread when so many many of the mistakes seem to be of the type that you wouldn't expect experienced players to have to be coached in.

It just looks like stage-fright. I don't believe the manager's philosophy is endless, aimless passing in our own half, nor that the players are coached to continually pick the safe option. Last week, when we started so poorly against Kiev at home you could clearly see Martinez saying that the ball had to go forward quicker, and I think that has always been the way he has encouraged the players to play. I think they have failed to carry through what they have obviously done in training into games, rather than faithfully carrying out a flawed approach.

Of course the manager is ultimately accountable. Part of what he has to deliver is the players consistently performing at their best, but I personally don't believe he has coached defensive nouse out of the players or only rates our performances on possession stats.

At the end of the day he is reliant, however, on the players performing as required and if he feels there are a couple of stalwarts who at least stick to the game plan then you can understand he may become over-reliant on them when faced with so many players producing unforced errors throughout the season.

Or seemingly Martinez who has been IN the game, I am pretty sure we do not practice set pieces whatsoever and I am also pretty sure that coaches would be involved with I know they were when I was being paid to play. You seem to be clutching at straws in an ambiguous and uninformed way in which only a bisexual guitarist could understand. Like I said, football IS a simple game and it is made complicated by morons with NFL playbooks. Just how can you expect someone with 2 or less GCSEs to remember the entirety of a tactics notepad which is thicker than War and Peace?

You are aware that David Moyes had players running up sand dunes and on beaches until they puked? I can assure you that this "method" of training has been around for a long time.

Fucking shambles of a performance, we couldn't even try a bit of tippy-tappy shite! I really cannot see any future with Roberto, we looked so disjointed and seemed to have players just wondering about the playing field in any position they wanted to take up.

Now where's me Bourbon? (Straight up.)

We need to put this disappointment behind us. We need to bounce back because we are still in a relegation battle. Can't afford to dwell on it. However, I believe the fabric and heart of the team is being destroyed by RM.

Needs to be major changes in the summer, or God help us!!

This season we have no choice but to accept that 40 points is the minimum requirement, you would be hard pressed to find an Evertonian who thought that would be the case at the start of the season.

As for setting targets that 40-point mark should always be the starting point for most PL clubs and once a club like ours gets to that point they can then re-jig their targets accordingly.

What we have at the moment is a team that has forgotten to do the basic things correctly and because they can't control or pass the ball correctly or cannot provide cover for each other they compound it by making huge errors of judgement. So, from that perspective, I will be a very happy blue if and when we reach 40 points. Jags thinks we are a good team who didn't play well – I disagree with him because a good team doesn't make basic errors in every game that it plays.

I mean what player in the right mind would want to spend another season playing for this guy, unless of course your name is Tim, Gareth or Antolin and haven't got a hope of being picked by any other Premier League manager.

But playing Atsu? Our midfield was none existant. No wonder they played long balls when Naismith and Atsu were our midfielders. They aren't the tallest. Playing Lukaku upfront on his own and usual formation does not work.

He should have changed it earlier. That's what was dissapointing the most. Alcaraz should have been took off far earlier.

How lucky is Mr Martinez, his charm and smile has been his biggest asset. Can you see the chairman sacking him? Only Championship football next season will see to that. I don't see us going down, so he will be here next season. What baffles the feck out of me is when people think the big two in Spain will come calling for his services.

Permit him?

Hold on, I thought Evertonians were... chosen.

This is very confusing.

Besic, Gibson, Osman, Barkley are all better deep midfielders than him, both defensively and offensively, and we have Ledson coming through. I'd get rid to Spurs in the summer, that's if they've not watched him this season and still think he's good! As much as we Barry is clearly passed his best, he has no sell on value whereas this fraud does. Of all the players we could sell to bring in funds, he'd been missed the least, in fact we'd be better off without him.

None of them can do justice to this festering clueless manager.

Yearning for a sky sports newsflash announcing his immediate dismissal.

Seems the only turd that was kept in tonight was Alcaraz in the centre of defence.

Martinez is full of shit even when it comes to explaining his gameplay before a game, let alone after.

"I have a son, he’s almost 4 years old, and I will not permit him to support this festering turd of a club."

I can celebrate the fact that the only thing vaguely similar thing we have in common is our names, ’cos I most certainly do not agree with your opinions and attitudes on Everton and parenting.

You will have noticed that Darron Gibson was on the bench after 90 minutes on Sunday and Distin (who scored for the U21s) was not even in the squad if Stones was not fit enough. Let's call a cunt a cunt, or is that spade a spade?

So that is that. The last hope of a trophy that some supporters were hanging on to, has gone. Martinez's saving grace, this season. Has now gone. What now? In the end, we were thumped. Martinez had no clue on how to win that game. Similar to our FA cup defeat to Arsenal last season. Hopeless. We now go into a must win game against QPR. And can anybody really say what Everton team will turn up? Can anybody guess what team Martinez will field? Will he adapt his Tippy Tappy nonsense. And try to bore QPR into submission. Cause I give up trying to guess what Martinez will do.

Does Martinez study the opposition?. Does he do his homework on the opposition.? Does he study their weaknesses and strengths?. Does he set up accordingly? Of course he doesn't. Why do you think that this is such a bad season? Because Martinez has not got a clue. He thinks that his philosophy will conquer all. Bollocks. You need to set up to beat teams. You need to show some nous. You need to show some tactical awareness. You need to be smart. You need to know what your best team is. You need to drop out of form players. You need to stop playing favourites. You need to have your players fit and on top of their game. You need to have your players practice set piece moves. You need to do your homework on the opposition. Does Martinez do any of these? Does anybody trust Martinez to do any of that next season? I don't. Lets hope that BK also doesn't.

Hard work supporting Everton. But I live in hope that one day, B. Kenwright will get his act together. And appoint a top class manager. I now have no faith in Roberto Martinez. Heres hoping that we beat QPR, but only because I support Everton FC. I don't care anymore what happens to Martinez.

Life is too short, yet change in football is glacially slow. I can see why the Americans have the system they have in the NFL to try to spread the joy around. Better still, just don't follow football.

Yes, we have had a load of shite given us by this joke of a manager but to call our club what you have done is fucking unbelievable.

The manager patently picked the wrong line up tonight. If he (and you from your posts) genuinely believe that we could not have played a for a 0-0 then that is a sad indictment of his and the players abilities. He could have set us up better for the counter attack. Oh, and by the way, he picked 7 defensive players tonight despite not thinking we could hold out too. Or, if he believed we should try and out-gun them then how abut trying a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 even rather than the tried and failed 4-2-2-1 shite he has persisted with? Or maybe how about starting the two players who can actually retain and use the ball i.e. Gibson and Osman? But instead we are treated to Barry and Atsu.

The manager is a busted flush with zero credibility left in the bank. He no longer has the Europa League excuse to hide behind. All goodwill from last season has long since evaporated with some of the shameful performances this year (Southampton away, Hull away, Stoke away, etc etc etc) and the sooner he is moved on from this club the better. Ask yourself this, what other club supposedly aspiring for the top echelons of the league would accept this level of under-achievement? Answer – NONE OF THEM

I maybe missed some early traffic here but that just fucking rattled me, apologies if I missed something here earlier but I'll have a look-see soon.

Football today is all about money. But I also believe that it comes and goes in cycles. Stick with your team. We will come good some day. Cherish every little victory.

Remember that Martinez will be long departed from Everton. But us supporters, and the club will always be here. Everton will be here forever. Kenwright might someday do the right thing and sell up. FOREVER EVERTON.

If Graeme Sharp, who very much toes the club line, is being openly critical then you know you have problems. I am wondering how the players will react to the defeat in terms of the end of the season and their overall playing future.

What really makes my blood boil about this disastrous season is the lack of progression for our youth. By all accounts we have a burgeoning wealth of talent beneath our first team, but there they remain, rotting away. Out on loan here, there and everywhere, until we eventually have to let them go with no real frame of reference as to how good they actually are. I could almost, and I stress "almost", except this sham of a season if we had brought on the likes of Ledson, Kenny, Browning, Galloway, Long et al.

But instead we continue to bumble along with the same old worn out, ever predictable faces, running down their contracts and taking us nowhere. If we are never going to use our youth players what is the point of spending money running academies in the first place?

Surely they are the future. On this years dismal showing, please Roberto "Give youth a chance"!

Could the questioner have been Bill Kenwright? I think not, but I suspect that's the great man's thinking as he sinks to justify a decision almost as daft as the one that said no to King's Dock!

I've said where I differ from the line-up the manager chose, but I honestly don't think we could have simply decided to stop them from scoring with any of our defenders / defensive midfielders and it would have necessarily come to pass. I think that is over-estimating our current squad and under-estimating Kiev as well.

I also didn't see anything 'shameful' (as some are calling it) in the performance of any of the players tonight, just embarassingly inept at times. And despite the cock-ups I thought there was a glimmer of hope of getting within one goal of their total until pretty late in the game. If you thought they looked like they could score at will whilst we simply floundered, then your perspective seems very skewed to me.

I was arguing in September that we needed more strength in depth in at least midfield and central defence (and I meant players in their prime not at either end of their careers) so maybe I am just not as surprised as some that we have weaknesses that other teams may be able to exploit, but the hyperbole being written about what was a poor performance by a couple of players rather than an overall awful team performance is, imo, an over-reaction (no doubt fuelled by season long disappointment and anxiety over our current league position).

Is a player who is nominally a defender playing defensively if they spend more time than the average in attacking positions. To say we had 7 'defensive' players on the pitch and, therefore, Martinez wasn't even looking to match the opposition goal for goal doesn't say much for your observational skills if you were watching last season.

Alcaraz deserves the finger pointing, and the manager takes the blame because he picked him to play. To state that Stones wouldn't have made any mistakes or been troubled by their tactics and therefore the manager was negligent in his choice seems to be stretching it a bit to me.

Thank God no one knows that I felt that Alcaraz would get better and better with game time and would be vital for victory tonight.

I'm sure that even some of Martinez's biggest critics were clinging on to some 'Roy of the Rovers' fantasy that we would go to Warsaw – win the Europa and be in the Champions League next season (being an optimist it was what I believed in) BK is a bit of a romantic and I'm sure that he hoped that the Europa dream could solve all our problems in one foul swoop – actually win a trophy, Champions league kudos and investment. More worrying for Martinez is whether any of the players believe in him any more. I get the feeling that the Europa dream was the only thing keeping them onside.

Where are we now compared to the start of the season when we were on the BT Sports adverts for the big fixtures on the Premier League calender... When we made a signing that showed our intentions of being back where we belong?! Well, it's gone completely tit's up and when you look at things in the sum of it's parts there's only one person who can be held responsible.

What do these things all have in common:

● Martinez's lineup
● Martinez's subs
● Lukaku's touch
● Antolin fucking Alcaraz?

They are all shit. Absolute and indefensible shit. Roberto out. The dream is over. We will avoid the drop because there are some utterly abject teams below us, but make no mistake: this season has been a disaster, and it is down to the manager. Out. Fucking out now.

Martinez has ruined the two best attacking full-backs in the league by planting a bunch of headless chicken wingers in front of them so they can’t cross the halfway line. He’s ruined Barkley by completely mismanaging him and his obsession with Gareth Barry is borderline stalker territory. Not to mention the fact that he thinks Alcaraz actually resembles a professional footballer...

But, if you sack him now and bring in a manager with a degree of sanity, be it Koeman or someone else who doesn’t think Tim Howard has had an ’amazing’ season, then the spine of a very good side is still there. Get rid of the on-loan deadwood, useless pricks like Riverdance McGeady and all of the abysmal Wiganers he brought to the back room and the 1st XI and you might just be left with the bones of a team that could do something next season. But not with that brown-shoed twat in charge.

We have no keeper and our spine is still Howard, Jags, Barry. Naismith & McGeady under contract, an ageing Baines and Osman and a crocked Gibson. Kone our second striker. Lennon and Atsu on loan, won't stay. That leaves us with Robles, Hibbert, Distin, Besic, Oviedo (if ever fit again) and the kids. Sorry we need to add 15 to squad.

I wanted him out before Xmas. He talks bollocks and anybody who still thinks he should be at this club seriously needs their head examining.

Unlike the Spanish incompetent BK should admit he made a mistake and unlike RM learn from it. Only a fool does not learn from their mistakes. RM like Lambert and Poyet has now lost the fans, the local reporters and even Graham Sharp now.

All we needed to do today is defend and keep a clean sheet. RM for once mate this should have been OUR PRIORITY. Are you seriously that clueless? You pick an out of form goalie, Alcarez and Barry!! Everybody could see at the Newcastle game that Gibson and Osman with Kone up front made a huge difference and we actually won. So you drop all three, you halfwit.

I wouldn't let him run my lad's Sunday league team. What position was Alcarez playing in the second half? He has turned this team into a dis-organised rabble. No wonder we cannot defend.

Why would you give this chancer another year? Just sack him off.....

Those gems you speak of were always found by David Moyes.

Then you glibly say "The scoreline flatters them. There was a lot less between the teams on the night than it suggests..." which totally ignores the additional 3-4 very good scoring ops they had.

Then in the same breath you say "3 goals were absolute gifts and therefore, preventable whatever the players do in training..." which clearly implies that in defence at least DK were vastly superior to us.

And then you say "Time after time we are let down by players failing to do the basics but I can’t see the common thread when so many of the mistakes seem to be of the type that you wouldn’t expect experienced players to have to be coached in."

Unwittingly, perhaps, in that last statement you have identified the crux of Everton’s problems this season.

It is understandable that at any time of the season 2-3-4 players can lose form for a number of games or weeks, but when it is en masse with nearly every player playing way below par over many months you have to identify a common denominator as to why it is so.

And in Everton’s case the single common denominator has two words. One commences with R, the other commences with M.

And Martinez has gone mad.

This season has been a disaster from the very beginning. RM dicking around in Brazil instead of working on his squad. The almost total lack of additions. PL and EL to cope with plus the cups and RM added only one player, Besic, when he himself said we needed six or seven players for an adequate squad. Yet he chucked away 28 million quid on Lukaku.

Then there was the half baked, almost farcical pre season. An almost total lack of preparation for the hard long season to come. The early season draws with Arsenal and Leicester from winning positions and the hammering from Chelsea. We have simply never recovered from any of this as proved by the early exits from the domestic cup competitions and the shameful xmas/new year debacle.

The constant persisting with this 4-2-3-1 formation without the players to do it and being completely oblivious to the fact that it simply won't work. Relentlessly picking favourites regardless of form. Always playing players out of position just to get them into the team.

Then there's the Europa Cup. Our one little bloom in this garden of weeds. The distraction that allowed Martinez the opportunity to ignore the stinking pile of dogshit that was right under his nose. The dogshit that he created with his own inept tactics, poor man management, and lousy player acquisitions.

Well we finally came up against a side who actually took the chances they created and rogered us good and proper. Phenomenal!!

All we can do now is hunker down and try to scrape enough points to avoid relegation. I seriously doubt that RM will get the boot because it would cost too much to sack him along with the rest of the Wigan deadheads he brought with him.

My one bright spot is that, should we avoid relegation, next season there will be no World Cup, and no European distractions. Just one PL game a week. A fixture list that our small squad can actually cope with and we can forget about grandiose ideas about taking Europe and the top four by storm. Get in a few decent players. Maybe bring through one or two of the youngsters. Although Martinez will have to go in favour of a more realistic manager who'll play to our strengths.

As usual with Roberto's teams, they didn't start playing until the game was almost up – not good enough for a so-called professional football team. Sorry Roberto but more of the same or similar in the last nine matches and we will be visiting some old haunts next season, but at least we won't have to play at Anfield, Old Trafford, Emirates, White Hart Lane or Stamford Bridge unless we draw them in the cups.

I am intrigued by your suggestion of appointing Gary Neville. In fact, I had a similar sentiment for a while.

Read his book, "Red". I was thoroughly impressed by his attitude. The man had to give 200% to maximise his 70% talent, and you don't get to stick around SAF if you're a mug. A real student of the game, too; as we can see with his brilliant insight week-in, week-out.

The question is, whether G Nev has the connections and/or know-how (Martinez lingo, haha) to set up scouting networks, squad management, etc.

But please, an unequivocal NO to Phil Neville having anything to do with our club ever again.

No more excuses for this manager(and I am reluctant to call him a manager). No praise should he save Everton front relegation. He put us there. Is Kenwright brain dead. To still have this Wigan nonsense at Everton. Pay them off. Get them off the payroll. Everton will benefit in the long run. The Sky money will soften the blow,

Alcaraz and Atsu playing tonight? In what universe did Martinez think that that would work. I have tried to like Alcaraz, but he keeps messing up. And Atsu has simply not performed for Everton. Never. The tactics tonight were all wrong. And nobody turned up. Heres hoping that they remember to turn up on Sunday.

It became apparent to me that tactics, formation, team selection, substitutions etc. are all irrelevant; it no longer matters who plays where or in what formation the outcome is generally the same. The problem lies in a complete lack of urgency which results in a mundane pedestrian tempo which in turn turns what should be blood & thunder encounters into glorified training sessions.

Martinez has developed the perfect formula for silencing a crowd, unfortunately it only seems to work during home games. I've come to the conclusion that Martinez see's winning as secondary to principle, he's already relegated one club by refusing to budge from his dogma so why shouldn't he do it again?

Every game follows the same pattern, dominate possession without creating anything then we fall behind from the first meaningful attack. We then carry on the same, casually passing between defence & midfield as if we're protecting a three-nil lead while showing no urgency whatsoever to get back into the game. Substitutions are generally like for like which means nothing changes & we then play out a miserable defeat accompanied by a post match hard luck story.

Our team is like a rudderless amateur set up, tonight everyone is slating the likes of Alcaraz & rightly so but why have rock solid consistently top performers over a number of seasons like Jagielka, Baines & Coleman suddenly become so bad? I would say it's because the basic principles of defensive drills & defending set pieces & working on attacking set pieces have gone out the window & been replaced by some sort of Utopian idealism that will (supposedly) eventually come good. Except it won't because in the real world the Allardyce's & Pullis's of the premier league will laugh you out of town.

John Lennon said, "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" – well, he was right... because his mate Roberto is all set to dream us into oblivion.

Kiev were excellent and murdered us. Switching Alcaraz for Stones, Barry for Gibson etc etc, may well have produced a better effort, but the truth is our style and quality of play was and is inferior to Kiev's. They play passes forward to foot and to head stretching our defenders .... our guys mostly go sideways and hardly ever win headers attack-wise.

Our general quality is not up to this level and I see no point in slagging off individual players, but it is the manager whose job it is to ensure that our team has the quality and style of play required. Frankly Roberto's CV does not make impressive reading and maybe Bill should look at his current performance and cut his losses, bidding farewell to the entire ex-Wigan brigade we took on 2 years ago.

Martinez had years at Wigan but never sorted the defence out, so don’t hold your breath about Howard, Alcaraz and Jags being dropped after calamity defending for at least 3 of the goals. (They scored 5 ffs!)

Martinez philosophy is great if your in charge of Barcelona, but as we saw tonight, we have not got them sort of players, look at the league table it does not lie. Robles would be a better alternative to Howard because he comes off his line for crosses and would help out our rubbish centre halves who can’t clear the ball properly.

Martinez out for me, and get a defence coach in, and clear out the other hundred or so coaches at the club because, on this season’s performances, we are following Wigan !.

The whole season we've been playing with only one recognized centerback: Jags. He's been trying to bail us out on his own. Martinez's 'philosophy' of a gazillion passes should not come at the expense of a solid British core of two proper centerbacks and a number 4 protecting them.

Alcaraz is another one of his pussy footing players and should not be called for in a match such as tonight. In retrospect, Barry would've been a better choice, seeing his legs have gone in midfield.

If Barcelona does that too us, I could at least say Barca can do that to the best. But Dynamo???

This man has got to go. Just sack him now, send a message to the players and supporters and next manager that this is completely unacceptable at Everton.

RM's record in the Prem? Not good. Young manager who wants to learn by mistakes made, will he? Has he got too much say at the club?

Do we need a Director of Football to challenge his philosophy if he stays?

Stick or Twist? Stick, just.

I also think that we lost the tie in the first leg at Goodison when it took nearly half-an-hour for the players to wake-up and eventually made Kiev look exactly what they are – a pretty ordinary team but with very good technical players. If Kiev had have scored five goals of real quality I might share your view but three goals were from rank bad defending which would have been punished by most professional teams.

The biggest mistake the Everton players have made is listening to the rubbish that Roberto spouts before, during and after matches. A good manager would realise the limitations of his players and devise a pattern that suits those players – that doesn't mean it has to be ultra-defensive but it must have a method that helps to shield the players from looking a lot worse than they actually are.

There is a time to be brave, but sometimes being brave can make you look very foolish and tonight the whole team looked complete fools for the first hour of the game and if they had started the way they finished the game they might have got the job done – my pet hate is that somewhere in among that group there is a decent team waiting to get out but Roberto will never ever find it.

My problem with Martinez is the fact that he could not set up his players to beat Hull, Stoke, Leicester, WBA, West Ham, Southampton, Newcastle (away). They are hardly of Dynamo Kiev's standard.

And Martinez talked nonsense after those games. No urgency shown. And Kenwright said nothing. Again no urgency shown... And some of the players now look as if they are ready for their summer holidays. Again no urgency. WTF is happening at Everton. This is bordering on the poorest season I have ever witnessed. And still no urgency..

And still some people want to give Martinez money and time next season. Jeez-U-S- Christ..

Wrong tactics??
Wrong team, wrong and/or late changes??
No urgency.

DK faster on the tackles, passing quicker and better, our last pass again was shit!?!

As soon as I saw the line-up the writing was on the wall. Why on earth was Alcaraz playing? This man has no right to wear the Everton shirt, not since the days of Glen Keeley has there been a more inept centre-half playing for our historic club!!!

Martinez has to take full responsibility for allowing us Evertonians to endure another pathetic defensive display against an average team at best.

I, like most Evertonians, will give time for Everton managers to assert their managerial style and last season appeared a breath of fresh air; however, the defensive frailties became quickly apparent. Martinez has no idea how to defend.

I'm sorry but this is the final straw, we cannot allow this famous club to be dragged into the lower regions of English football by a manager whose ideologies on football are masked by his lack of ability to do the basics. BK please do not be blinded by the Spaniards alleged vision. This man has to go now!!!

Worth reading. Thanks. Made me laugh. So true.

Then Martinez must be a genius by now.

I hope someone is keeping tabs on these quotes cos' there's a book in it someway down the line.

We have a good squad of players but someone keeps putting the wrong team out....

Anyhow, Mr Martinez, listen to what is said and react now. All the above players are doing their best, of course, but in some cases that's the problem. Please just get rid of Alcaraz – the crowd have the jitters, let alone the players around him.

Many of us wanted a goalkeeper, others a big centre half and a creative midfielder.

It is true that Alcaraz was party to us conceding two of those goals. However, it was the whole defence that sat too deep, so why didn't our experienced keeper tell them to get out from under his feet?
Answer; he wasn't confident of sweeping up behind them, and wasn't going to come out and catch.
Also Captain Jags surely could see how deep they were. Our former Captain Rat spotted that our midfield was falling so deep that MaCarthy was behind the centre haves at times.
In other words, the whole defence was a mess. Coleman(as on many occasions this season) was pulled out of position, as Atsu was too far away, and Alcaraz was reluctant to fill the gap ( perhaps he was afraid of the gap between himself and Jags being exploited). Baines too was exposed as they cut indside time and again.
The defence knew that they would come under pressure, and anyone looking at the teamsheet knew that Barry would be done for pace.
I don't really know where Naismith was supposed to be playing, or why he stayed on for so long.
So many weird picks for such an impotant game.
I don't blamr Martinez for playing Alcaraz, after Newcastle, I thought that he was worth a punt, but without a dominant keeper, or a tomem pole centre back, and poor midfield cover, he was going to be found out.
Stones is good in the air, and has height, and speed, so would have been better equipped. However, he is far from perfect and who knows what would have happened.

The manager made so many poor selections, and sent them out with a weak, flaccid attitude. They were waiting to concede, playing without any tempo, hoping that Lukaku would steal them an away goal to take the pressure off.

This boss doen't learn from HIS mistakes, he picks players who don't deserve to start, and he doen't know how to set a team up.

Surely it is plain to see that Martinez has failed, and should be sacked.

If we survive this term, then I pray that he will not be given another year to frustrate and annoy me.

Getting beat I can take. I’m a bluenose of over 40 years; if I could not take losing, I’d have topped myself years ago. It’s the manner of the defeats. Headless chickens. Spineless defending. Genuinely it was like watching a car crash last night. I actually pitied them!

I don’t even blame the players. It’s not Alcaraz’s fault that he’s shit. I’m shit at defending too. But that’s why I don’t play for Everton and neither should he... ever, ever again.

But, for me, the biggest sin is hearing Martinez actually defending that performance. Good grief. Enough already! Put big Duncan in charge for the rest of the season........ Hell, put Mr Blobby in charge at least that would be entertaining.

’Sin miedo’, my arse! More like mucho miedo. Which I know is probably wrong but fuck it.

Is he gone yet?

If I was slimy bill, who's shit scared of sacking his manager, I'd appoint an assistant manager (Irvine?) who would be responsible for reinstating these basic skills and let Roberto carry on with his media duties.

(and who was the blue the cameras spotted in tears pulling his hoodie over his head?... surely not Ken Buckley?)

Learn from your mistakes? When's he going to start then?

I posted on an other site......back to the "normal" team then?

Lo and behold a "normal" result.

Fuckwittish team selection and tactics as usual.

What further proof, if proof were needed, that the Martinez has the ability to suspend reality whenever it suits him. If we can survive he must surely go and save us from having to look forward to another season of dire mediocrity and of the stupidly of ignoring the obvious in the name dogma!

Two word review?

Shit sandwich.

Somewhere in there is a justification for not picking the players he should have done!

I would rather wash my tessies with sandpaper...

The only question right now is when will Kenwright see it?

Whats going on behind the scenes, that impresses kenwright so much? Whats "Sold" him on the Martinez vision? Kenwright will feel the need to back him this season, BUT next season is the acid test and Martinez knows this and so must Kenwright.

Every year spent with Martinez will ruin us even more.

For me irreparable damage was done over the Xmas period after the Hull and Newcastle defeats. The players don't trust him or want him there the performances on the pitch speak volumes, despite the pre rehearsed sound bites in support of El Martino. The treatment of Distin is puzzling to the extreme, made to train with the U21's.

Let Martinez see out the season and move him and clear ALL his backroom staff as well including big Dunc.

A fresh start is needed

Good call - I've always thought he was nothing more that a glorified PR man.

This was a symphony of bad ownership, under-investing in the team, stripping the team of its assets and an absolute farcical coach who needs to be put out to pasture...

If you "buy" players on frees, extend contracts for players over 30 because you don’t want to buy new ones, this is the trash that comes with it. We cannot be surprised as this performance and season has been in the making for 10 years.

the defense actually played more confidently with Coleman pushing up when Howard came back in. I cannot beleive the plonkers on here blaming him for every goal that happens from the Chelsea game forward. incredible when you watch QPR and Leicester and see the bobbles spills and other unforced errors and yet if Howard doesn’t make a surpeme effort to make a save that is near impossible he is trash because Robles somehow would have been better. Fact is, if you don’t practice defending and don’t put men on the posts, and your mids/wide players don’t come back to help, it doesn’t really matter who is in goal as a clean sheet is almost impossible. Tell me the last two games that howard did not pull off two one v one saves to halp the team.

He is a total liability at the moment, worse than he has ever been, if he remains in goal we are much more likely to go down.

He is not the only concern, Martinez is like a mad professor with a new project and just doesn't know what he is doing, If Kenwright leaves him in control we will go down.

This also means that next season will be just like RM's first season. Our main competitors having to play CL or EL games while we can prepare properly before each game.

If the dimwit currently managing our club can see the error of his ways and learn from the fundamental mistakes he has made this season hopefully next season we can make some progress.

If we can get rid of the considerable deadwood and bring in 7 or 8 decent replacements we should be able to put together a decent squad. We have a nucleus in Robles, Stones, Garbutt, Coleman, McCarthy, Barkley, Gibson Lukaku. We have experience in Jags, Baines, Osman. We need another decent CB, attacking midfield players, and another forward to help Lukaku.

Our football should be high tempo and direct. No more of the pedestrian tippy tappy play it around rubbish. It plainly doesn't work unless you have exceptionally talented players and we patently do not.

If these things are done then hopefully next season should be a lot better than this one, although it's hard to see how it couldn't be, as long a Martinez accepts the need for change. If he can't then it's bye bye and thanks for nothing.

Just imagine in a couple of games next season, a midfield of Barry Besic McCarthy and the dynamic Cleverly. God help us!!!

Fully expected a pathetic showing as soon as I saw that he had referred back to his "winning formula" team with Barry, Nais and Barkley shoved into the team.

Watched it with my arl fella and I very rarely swear in front of him but I probably made up for the 40+ years of biting my tongue. Alcaraz has a lot to answer for.

I have noted this season too on ToffeeWeb that I am swearing a lot more too.

Good job I am swerving my season ticket next year and I may end up being like my dad and checking the scores at 4:55 (why are we always one of the last to finish?)

Bobby has done what Walker and Smith failed to do, he has fully sucked any enjoyment I felt about football and Everton out of my body.

I can see now how Tony Marsh felt when he used to go on his tirades about Moyes.

To me, the four biggest mistakes RM has made this year have been inadequate preparation (off- and pre-season), team selection, inflexibility in tactics and an apparent lack of drilling in basics and defending. I'm willing to wait until the start of next season to see if he's learned the lesson of preparation. I think some of the team selection issues were dictated by injury, but it is down to RM to use the remainder of the PL season to display that he's learned lessons, especially the need to drop experienced players from the starting XI when they are showing sub-par form (I'm least convinced that he's learned this lesson...) I'm hopeful that he's learning that the squad he has now is not suited to his tactics. If he has learned that lesson, then I'd like to see him either change tactics this season, or stick with it and make serious personnel changes in the off season to build a squad better suited to his tactics (a winger or two who can actually cross the ball and a midfielder who can pick a pass who's not on the downside of his career?) And I'd love to see RM add an assistant coach responsible for drilling in basics and defending. I don't need RM to be all things and control all drilling, but I hope he will see the deficiencies in his training methods and bring in someone to bolster those areas (and set pieces too?) If he's learning these lessons, I'm willing to be patient, but I'd like to see more evidence of improvement than I'm seeing right now.

I think RM's embracing of the history of our great club was wonderful last season, but I haven't heard that from anyone this season. Perhaps RM himself needs a refresher course in that history and tradition, to start infusing the side with the spirit of the club. In the meantime, let us see some of the talent we have coming up the ladder, and let's all get behind the team and cheer them on to as respectable a finish as possible in the PL in the hope that we will remain a potentially attractive destination for top talent in the next few years.

6 fecking years Tim and he hasn't altered his views once.

Stuck with his "philosophy" until Wigan were relegated and is now sticking with his "philosophy" now....let's hope history does not repeat itself.

Unfortunately Roberto your team did have a winter break between Wolfsburg away and last week against Kiev - obviously our lads must have been playing at 70% and below for the best part of the season, let's hope they have the legs to produce a few wins in the last quarter of the season.

This season there have been countless weekends I haven't even bothered watching. Win or lose its tediously boring to watch. Absolute dirges of games with the outcome dependent on whether Lukaku can score a flukey one before Howard throws the ball in his net. I can't be bothered watching on Sunday it's that simple. Martinez has taken the enjoyment out of Everton.

I can't even get behind some of the players. Mirallas isn't bothered, Kone irrelevant, Barry plays like its a retirement home, McCarthy just doesn't do anything, equally Besic has been Robertofied into another passenger, Atsu Lennon Mcgeady are just following Deulofeu on the conveyor belt of useless temporary wingers, Alcaraz and Distin are a joke and Howard is a clown.

The only players I have any affinity for are Jags Stones Baines Oviedo, Gibson, Osman. Pienaar, and Lukaku. Naismith and Coleman usually as well except they've stunk this season.

I want Everton back. Ferguson or Cahill powering headers in for big wins. Arteta Baines Pienaar and Osman just tying teams up with interplay, a proper solid defense with our boss full backs, Carsley Gravesen, Fellaini, even Neville slamming into tackles getting Goodison off its feet literally changing the course of seasons. That is the real Everton. Not this boring metronome. Even last season most of the games were boring but at least we were winning. This season has been the worse in my living memory and easily the most emotionless and boring. Even losing doesn't hurt that much because its inevitable as we're playing so badly. Going one down away at Stoke and having to watch Barry and McCarthy crab their way up the pitch in the knowledge we will never get back in the game was soul destroying.

I've backed RM to the hilt but at 1-1 away in Europe, with an away goal and 1 foot in the next round; why the fuck would you put 8 of the players forward for a corner.

Tactically naive trying to win the game inside the first 1/2 hour and it cost us dearly.

"The fact is, if we want Everton to compete at the highest levels, we need top-quality players, and RM seems to be able to attract them. Will that attraction continue after this year, I don’t know, but I hope so. The club could cut our losses and revert to some defense-first manager, but we’d lose all attraction to top talent."

Two things here Tim. RM may well have been a determining factor in recruiting the top talent you allude to, such as Lukaku. However, seasons such as this don’t do much in retaining such players, regardless of your name, reputation or how personable you are. Or did you miss the murmurings from Mirallas and Lukaku about new challenges at the highest level, away from Everton?

In this scenario, it could just as equally be argued persisting with RM will drive away our existing ’top talent’ and make other ’top talent’ less likely to join us.

Secondly, why presume if we dumped RM we would revert to some defence-minded manager as the only alternative? We could equally land a more competent and better upgrade than RM.

Spurs, Southampton and - yes! - even Villa with the appointment of Sherwood (not everyone’s cuppa, I acknowledge) are examples of the many positive alternatives out there.

The managerial world is not inhabitated by Big Sam or Tony Pullis types only.

I think there are a few reasons for the poor season besides some of his stubborn team selections, I feel now there are 5 or 6 players who are past there peak now and should be kicked out. Howard,Distan,Jags,Barry,Baines have not been at the standard of previous seasons. I said at the time we should have cashed in on Baines and I think we are going to regret that now.

I hope and believe Martinez will address certain aspects of the squad to make us stronger, I also think with a better pre-season we should start the season with guns blazing. I will give him ten games of next season before making a judgement on whether he should stay. his performance last season deserves that at least.

I couldn't work somewhere full-time for 18 months become the top salesman for 9 months and then a low achiever in the next 9 months and expect to keep my job because of what I achieved in the first period, granted I might have a boss that I get on with and he might speak up for me but given there were no mitigating circumstances to my slump in performances I would expect to be replaced without question. Martinez has one game or perhaps two to save his Everton career but in my opinion he should be gone asap.

You say " if he promoted a pleasing style of football AND had all the answers" like one or the other of these is a true statement??

No offence intended mate but I am starting to think many people posting here don't even watch Everton play, i.e. anyone at all who still thinks the Catalan Clown has anything left to offer. Then the next batch of delusional posters cannot bring themselves to construct their defence without liberal sprinklings of "ifs" and "hopefullys" throughout their posts. It's like they see what is happening but still don't quite want to believe it.

Glad to see Colin Glassar has finally seen the truth for what it is - welcome aboard Colin.

McCarthy is ok but in my opinion its not ridiculous to ask for more from a 13 mill player than a lot of running. Besic equally looked good until Roberto took all his aggression out of him. Barry is awful. We're still holding out hope that Gibson or Osman will be fit every game (again two Moyes players). The one player who could inject attacking impetus into the midfield is Barkley but despite running the show in our best home win of tge season against QPR he hasn't been trusted there since.

Mcgeady, Atsu, Lennon all look below standard. I'm not going to make out se have an illustrious history of wide players but the truth remains that when fit and inform Mirallas and Pienaar are our best wide options (both Moyes players). I don't even want to discuss why Etoo, Naismith, and Barkley have been used in those positions. I haven't got enough blood left to boil.

Up front Lukaku is obviously claas but for 30 mill so he should be. 6mill isn't a pittance either but Kone is 30 permanently crocked and offers what exactly? Our next source of goals is Naismith who has barely played upfront and is also a Moyes player. Etoo was a bizarre signing.

So to sum up apart from Lukaku what position has Martinez strengthened in 4 transfdr windows? Ironically ptobably the keeper but Roberto doesn't see it that way. Who are the rumoured targets for summer? Cleverley and Ayew. Another defensive mid and useless winger.

Quite simply I don't trust him to replace Moyes' crop. Where is he going to find an Osman or Pienaar? When he thinks Naismith or Barkley can do the job? I don't trust him to replace Jagielka if he thinks Alcaraz is of a suitable standard and it was ok to play half a season with Distin in the team. I don't trust him to buy the right player to cover for Gibson when he inevitably gets injured.

Quite simply why give him another winfow when he has messed up the other 4? I would say thankyou for Lukaku but here's the door. The core players of the squad are too valuable to be diluted by Martinez's trading. The thought of him selling a Stones or Barkley and using the money is frightening.

At last, the penny has dropped with the media that were so keen on all the hype of last season. The media darling that is our manager has now been exposed as the bullshitter that he really is. I've been fed up with him all season,and it is his obstinacy that adds insult to injury.

If a team gets walloped I like a manager to hold his hand up and admit that he got it wrong. I don't expect him to slag off his players, but just to explain why we lost and how he is going to put things right.

He treats us all to his nonsensical utterances, that are baffling. "I can't blame the team, it's the personnel". That is the bloody team!

Anyway, he may well have been a factor in attracting Lukaku to the club, but now everyone knows that things are not all rosy in Mr Martinez's garden, he will find it much harder to attract anyone decent until next January, when he might have put things on an even keel.

For me, he can go at the end of the season.

He has insulted all of those hardy souls who travelled to Kiev, and all the loyal fans who have been patient with him.

I know for a fact that the players in general have no faith in him or his methods. I have a cast iron source and I have mentioned it on here before. The players don't trust him, and think he is two-faced and a bullshitter.

He has lost the confidence of the team, and when he has gone, we will learn just what a cesspool Finch Farm has become. I hope that the tit doesn't take us down before he takes his bullshit roadshow elsewhere.

Martinez gives off an impression of beatific charm, but underneath lurks a control freak of the highest order. I know Moyes was, and Sir Alex, but they didn't pretend to be Mr Nice Guy. He is a ruthless bugger, just look at poor old Distin!

He's also a hypocrite who doesn't treat younger players in the same way as he does the older pro's. He makes the case for playing Alcaraz because he's had a bit of good form (!) against Kiev and Newcastle and the defence has looked good. So he doesn't bring young Stones back in even though he's been playing well and is clearly a better player than Alcaraz. Robles concedes one goal in 4 games, the defence is looking solid for the first time all season and he brings Howard back because he's a senior pro.

Great post!

A few players will retire and leave at the end of the season; I dread to think who he would bring in to replace them. This guy has had the best squad and largest transfer fund Everton have had for many years, I just wonder where we would be now with a decent manager at the helm.

I fear Martinez has set us back 3-5 years at least; this team needs a large cash injection and someone who can buy the right players. But, as it stands, I fear for our clubs future...

I thought the ref was shite and they conned him throughout with their play-acting.

Positives? Very few. Barkley and Lukaku played well(ish) and were a threat. Also, I think Alcaraz might have a future as a winger.

I totally disagree regards Howard. He was at fault for their second goal. He should have came and punched and taken everybody and everything with him. But Howard has no balls as I have said before.

What penalty should we have got? Yes, we had no luck with hitting the bar and post and it is fine margins, but Howard is done like a lot of this current team. I really believe that had Robles been in nets with his extra height he may have saved at least one of those shots.

I agree that the Referee was not totally impartial and you wonder if we had have somehow managed to get level would he have given them something to ensure they went through.

I don’t agree with your summary, though. Everton didn’t start playing until the fourth goal went in and as pessimistic as I am when Everton are playing, I never for one moment thought before the game that we would concede five goals and I’m still in a bit of shock 24 hours later.

Robles may have saved one of the worldies, and a determination to go out and catch the ball would have meant that our centre-halves would not have been so cruelly exposed.

They also hit the bar and Howard made a couple of saves, and there were defensive blocks on goalbound shots. Our attack did pose problems, but apart from Roms' goal and the late Jags effort, we were not clinical enough.

Also their keeper, who looked dodgy at Goodison, pulled his finger out and made saves.

As a Blue for 40 years i feel sooo disappointed and let down. If we had won, our season could have been in turnaround; now it's a relegation battle.

Alcaraz has to fuck off now as does Martinez. Second season syndrome my arse, he has been found out. Moyes must be laughing his head off.

As Alan Hansen said in his Telegraph Column 2 years ago, the impact Moyes had won't be appreciated until he has gone. Total disgrace, shambles. Give the traveling Blues their money back.

In my mind, a 1-1 result would have been a fair result had we put men back and shut down the space in front of them. The other goals were gifts and poor positioning from the keeper. Pity we didn't have a big commanding CH in the middle to deal with the high balls.

You don't get anything from hitting the post but clear cut chances were few and far between. Time for David Weir to come in and assume control as caretaker, sort out the defensive side of the game. Amen.

Rubbish defending, individual and collective mistakes, shite refereeing, and some bad luck contrived to defeat us. Plus some fucking awful, unforgivable, decision-making by Martinez re team selection and tactics. Why didn't he go for a draw? Even a score draw if he knows we can't defend?

I think Rebrov must have looked at our vids between games, as they knew that they could cut in across Baines and find space, and they knew that diagonal crosses would freak out our slow centre halves, and our keeper would not want to come out and catch.

Also, they must have noticed that Tim stands too far off his line in open play, in case he is required to join in the tippy-tappy back line stuff. They also knew that Tim has been beaten by a fair amount of long-range shots this season.

The homework paid dividends. Let's face it, we would all have pretty good ideas how to beat our team.

The one thing I won't accept is stupid remarks like Connor (I think #218) saying "Fuck it. End of a mediocre and agonisingly frustrating era since Moyes first arrived."

David Moyes was far from perfect but he did an incredible job for this club on a negligible budget. We'd been in the wilderness for many years before his arrival with the likes of Walker, Smith and Kendall Mk 2 and 3 promising much but delivering little and having us involved in relegation scraps more often than not.

Moyes came in and immediately added some solidity to the team, making us hard to beat first and foremost (would've been in handy in Kiev that, no?) and building a platform season upon season that established us as a top 6 or 7 club who were in a position to challenge for Europe every year (Of 10 years we were 4th, 5th twice, 6th twice, 7th three times and 8th once with just two seasons outside the top 10 in 11th and the difficult season in 17th). He got us our only slot in the Champions League, a couple of Europa League outings and a tilt at the FA Cup.

In that time he did also progress the playing style, in the last 2 seasons (and in plenty of games before then) we played a lot more attacking football and brought in exciting players.

Obviously fans are fickle and always want more. Despite the stark financial realities that had been stated time and again by the Moyes defenders which saw the teams above us (and below) spending multiple amounts on one player than our entire net transfer budget.

In the first season of RM's reign it looked like he may be able to deliver that, grafting possession football and flair on top of the defensive base that Moyes had built. We surprised the Premier League that first year who'd expected something different from us, but as we've since this year we only had one trick which has since been thoroughly found out. As Martinez progressively enforced his vision at the business end of last season, it became clear that the rest of the league could see right through it and we seemed lacking in Plan B. What's more, it became clear that we were dismantling the solid platform that Moyes had spent years building and instilling.

These trends have accelerated this season and coupled with apparently atrocious pre-season planning, some questionable signings and a lack of Plan B have essentially fast-tracked us into Wigan Mk 2, with a very real danger we'll go the same way if any of the bottom 4 can get their act together.

In some ways it's a relief we're out of the Europa League as it at least prevents the repetition of the glorious failure narrative he lived out at the DW, combining a cup win with relegation.

Ultimately though, I think we have to accept the Martinez miracle is over; this false dawn was enabled by specific circumstances that no longer exist. The defence aren't clear what they should be doing and are susceptible to simple counter tactics, we don't seem to want to practise corners or crossing and the passing game secures nice percentages but not goals or results.

The way forward is clear to us all:

1. Martinez has to go.

2. We need a manager who's actually done something in the Premier League or elsewhere.

3. Barry and Alcaraz have to be pushed back to support status rather than first-team picks.

4. We need to freshen the side in the summer with a creative midfielder, some genuine width and a new central defender as cover for Stones and Jags (with Alcaraz and Distin phased out).

5. We need to focus back on the basics that work in the Premier League, not La Liga – proper defending and quick counter-attacks.

We have been in the wilderness since Kendall left after the last Championship win. Since then, we really haven't found an adequate replacement. For a club with Everton's standing at the time we just let it all go to pot.

Getting back to Martinez, for one moment against Newcastle (who admittedly are a poor side), I thought that Martinez had got it right. I now realise after the Kiev debacle that he is never going to get it right.

He actually should have gone in December but, as our club is run by people without any ambition whatsoever, I think the mediocrity will continue. Until a new owner comes in, nothing is going to change.

QPR are another very poor team – if we lose that one and Martinez is still here, I think we will be relegated and just fade away.

The facts are that the Catalan gave us one of our best seasons in the Premier League followed by our longest run in Europe for 30 years. Whilst it's easy for me to agree with your comments, I doubt Blue Bill will see it that way and, as yet, be prepared to admit to what, inevitably, will prove to be a very expensive mistake.

I tell you, like it or not, we are stuck with the bugger!

Coupled with Distin's contract ending and the marvellous news I read about this morning that Alcaraz's contact running down at the end of the season, I hope lessons will be learned and we'll be better for this awful season. IF he buys the right players of course.

You have an opinion, you give it, then you hope you're wrong and see how it pans out. You might even change or doubt your initial thoughts from time to time. In conversation you might acknowledge pros, cons and general thoughts.

On the Internet it's black and white forever. People stick by opinions regardless of what's happening, and make sure they crow about it if and when they're right.

People are suicidal after defeats and can't even talk about good points in the game. You wouldn't haven't a beer with a bloke like that would you?

vhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV1iqMTlhfw

No matter just how close we get to relegation, I don't see it happening. But far more importantly I believe that BK doesn't see it happening.

So, we will begin next season looking pretty much the way that we do right now, minus a few of our better players picked off by better performing clubs.

The real mess will be next autumn, and our current predicament will be as nothing compared to that.

We can only hope for the best as were powerless to alter situation it's very frustrating but I hope we win.

That is where the true blame lies and the only way things will ever change properly for the better is if we, the fans, get together and force our current fraud of a board to end the never-ending cycle of absentee mismanagement.