Why, why, why Moshiri?

by   |   04/02/2018  96 Comments  [Jump to last]

In a season of unprecedented disappointment, there are so many questions we as supporters have; many may never be answered but if the owner of our club has any thought of the fans who pay, week in and week out to watch the utter crap that has been on display this season then I believe these are a few of the questions he should be asking his management team.

Why... don't we seem to have a style of football? We seem to play a different way every game. Okay, we have had three managers this season but each has had enough time to impose a style on the team yet we still seem unsure as to how we are set up to play.

Why... is Steve Walsh still at the club? We look like a team on a downward spiral surely after spending over 200 million this is gross misconduct and in any other profession would result in the sack.

Why... break up a winning team? Coleman I can understand but one commentator said he thought he changed the team to rest players as he didn't think he could win the game. For fuck's sake, people payed a lot of hard earned money to travel and watch that crap.

Why... do we seem to interrupt our own attacks and play towards our own goal time after time, players hesitating, slowing down attacks, unsure about making passes that should be bread and butter to professional footballers?

Why... not – if the rumours are true and Allardyce is going in the summer – cut our loses, get rid, bring in Silva, give him a couple of months to look at the players he has, and decide what he needs to do?

I realise there are far more questions that we all have but I can't think when am this pissed off at the way we are playing. Please, Big Sam, take Little Sam and Walsh with you. Goodbye and good riddance.

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Noleen Daya
1 Posted 05/02/2018 at 08:11:50
And why oh why on why - do we as fans and lovers of our club not stage a show down to speed up the take down of the slithering snakes who poison our club week in and week out while collecting their fat pay packets??!!

Dr Phil says, "it is YOU who teach people how to treat you by either enabling or refusing to accept their behaviour". Never a truer word spoken. Fellow toffees, a time will come, very soon (if not already), that it will only be us to blame for the mess if we do not take action.

Peter Rogers
2 Posted 05/02/2018 at 09:03:53
Noleen, I have never been a advocate of jumping on the managers back but this is not our Everton. In the dark day of the Mike Walker era I don't think I have felt this despondent about our team probably due to the raised expectations that we all felt.

Should we all protest, I honestly believe the board should be the ones to make this decision as it will be. They can see what we can see and must realise the extent of unrest with the fans. A demonstration could be counter productive but it would make sense (maybe not financial) to act sooner rather that later.

Derek Thomas
3 Posted 05/02/2018 at 09:46:32
Moshiri is out of his depth and only here for the stadium

He said on day one (gist) that Kenwright knows so much about football and he is his 'go to' man.
Kenwright has for 17yrs been the major shareholder then Chairman...and remember he was on the board before that...somehow manage to both flirt with and avoid disaster...based on Smiths recommendation of Moyes

In comes Stadium Man Moshiri.

Who then left a serial mediocrity borderline failure in charge.
But this proven failure now has another serial incompetant panic merchant over him.
Bill, like Moshiri, has his day job to do, so the CEO is there.

There were reasons, not addressed at the time, which don't seem to have gone away and have probably got worse, why a respected football CEO left after 6 weeks
Add in Wyness, Elstone and any other total nonentity who had the job.

Anyway, long story short...it all stops on Moshiri's desk - or should.
Until HE wakes up to the fact that neither He, nor those below him he left in charge and/or appointed...yeah you Walshy you tosser, know 'K all, Nothing will change

Out in the real world there are plenty of business men who don't have a clue, but keep on...well just keeping on, get the beamer, the 4x4 for the missus, flash house, school fees for the kids etc...because hey everybody needs JCBs or Scaffolding or Bread or what ever. They then either don't grow the business or try and then fail.

The odd few who actually know instinctively get really lucky (not going to happen with The Ev, now is it)
The other rarer odd few get in somebody who knows how businesses work... not so much work as what causes them to fail...

There are 2 reasons you get Consultants in.

1) to tell you what you already know,but haven't got the bottle to implement...you can then blame the consultants...Sorry lads half of you have to go just to keep us going, its not me its all in here *waves report.

Or in our case number 2) Because you haven't a 'kin clue.

So until Moshiri wakes up to the fact, not only does he not have a clue, but neither do half, or more, of the people below him
Then this is it.

Over to you Moshiri

Clive Rogers
4 Posted 05/02/2018 at 10:24:49
Our transfer policy is a joke. After a dreadful summer in which we wasted £200M, we look to have done it again with Tosun and Mangala. Tosun looks lost and slow on the pitch while Mangala started the rot with a poor mistake for the first goal and was all over the place on Saturday. Who on earth is sanctioning these ridiculous signings?
Lee Mandaracas
5 Posted 05/02/2018 at 10:29:11
Why, why, why does any Evertonian want Marco Silva?

He came in to Hull second half of last season and had a honeymoon period of almost turning them around to avoid relegation. However, he failed - with five losses in their last seven games!

He then resigned and joined Watford where his 'head was turned' by those nasty cheats at Everton who had the audacity to go through official channels and make financial offers to chairmen precisely according to regulation, the bastards!

Then, and this is in my opinion entirely unrelated looking at the pattern of their results prior and during, the team hit the skids. He probably started to want out because he saw the slide and wanted a new gravy train - á la Hull relegation. At the point he was sacked Watford had taken five points from a possible thirty-three. Let that sink in for a moment. 5 points from 33

I cannot get my head around why anyone could possibly think he could be the next Pocchetino

Lee Mandaracas
6 Posted 05/02/2018 at 10:29:47
P.S. I do think he would be a step up from Allardyce though!
Sam Hoare
7 Posted 05/02/2018 at 10:48:27
Lee, Silva did work before he came to England too. He did good work at Estoril and Sporting and broke a few records (the good kind) with Olympiacos.

He also improved Hull and Watford. Getting significantly more points than his predecessors for both clubs, whilst playing decent football and turning over some of the Sky 4, despite limited backing in the transfer market. That is why.

Granted he may not look so appealing after Watford's form plummeted at the end of his tenure (difficult to pinpoint why though clearly the board were not happy at his refusal to flatly refuse the Everton job) but i'd say there's enough evidence to suggest that there might be a good manager in there. Not a sure fire bet certainly but then who is?

Jim Bennings
8 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:10:24
I'll tell you why I want Silva.

Because unlike Allardyce he is not totally exposed as being a one track manager that can't change his spots.

Silva is young and has time to become a better manager at a club that is willing to give him backing financially and time. He is young enough to learn (much like Martinez in many ways who by the time he's 50 he could be a more complete manager).

Did Silva really have long enough to do that much wrong at Watford? He had a bad month so they sack him, it's what Watford do and I'll tell you what they will do well to get a more promising manager at that club than Silva .

He went to Hull halfway through a season too late to save a club hardly renowned for staying in the Premier League anyway .

Personally I'd like one of Eddie Howe, Tuchel or Fonseca but I'd be willing to give Silva a shot at it, after all he WAS soft lad Moshiri ‘s first choice in November anyway??

Anything is better than the anti-football we are subjected to now under Allardyce, it's woeful to watch, disorganised and he's doing the one thing that won't gain stability by chopping and changing teams every game.

Allardyce is exposed as a manager with limitations, he's a mere troubleshooter and always has been, nothing more than a survival based manager as 25 years has proven.

Lee Mandaracas
9 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:18:06
I don't dispute his credentials outside the Premier League, Sam but I do challenge your perspective that he improved either team's results across his entire tenure - though his initial impact at Hull is without doubt.

Hull pre Silva - 13 points
3 wins
4 draws
13 losses

Hull under Silva - 21 points
6 wins
3 draws
9 losses
of which 3 wins, 2 draws and 5 losses were in their first eight games

Watford's first 24 games of 2016-17 season - 30 points
8 wins
6 draws
10 losses

Watford under Silva - 26 points
7 wins
5 draws
12 losses
of which, 4 wins, 3 draws and 1 loss were in their first eight games

We all know about the ‘honeymoon period' of a new manager so when you factor that into each set of results it puts his achievements in English football into some perspective and, in my opinion, makes the overall reading negative.

Sam Hoare
10 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:26:24
Fair enough Lee, though I guess stats can support which ever argument you wish to propagate.

I would point to Silva's predecessor Mazzarri leading Watford to 17th in the 16-17 season whereas Silva had them up around 7th untill our approach 'destabilised' him. And even when he left they were still 11th (I think).

To me league position is more indicative than points and that demonstrates that he improved the team significantly.

Trying to factor in the 'honeymoon' is tricky and some managers have longer ones than others.

Jim Bennings
11 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:26:58
Lee

The thing is though, look at the amount of games Silva has actually been given?

It's not really many to build up a stable team anyway is it? He's a victim of the trigger happy chairman of the modern era (although he didn't get sacked at Hull) and hasn't been given any opportunity to succeed at Watford.

I'd say judge him over three seasons and give a promising young manager chance to develop.

We could keep Allardyce four years but we know we'd see nothing different because he's been the same throughout his managerial career. He had brief limited success at a small club in Bolton but times have moved on since 2004 greatly.

Michael Lynch
12 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:49:05
The big question in this article for me is about our player recruitment. How can we have signed such duds one after another without someone being held responsible? Sure, you get the odd one totally wrong – eg Per Krøldrup – but we'd already fucked up massively with Klaassen and Sandro before Tosun arrived. Ok, it's early days but if the guy can't get a game in one of the worst Everton teams in living memory, when is he going to get a game? And now Mangala – only on loan but utter shite immediately, not even a little honeymoon period of being just a bit shite. Not to mention Keane who will surely be shipped out by the next manager.

And that brings us to the managers. Three fuck-ups on the run? In one season? Ok, Unsworth was a beginner, and clearly out of his depth, but the other two? Sam is limping on, trying to hold out til the end of the season, but its not unimaginable that we could bin him off and appoint Silva before then, giving us four managers in one season. And let's face it, Silva has a record so far that even Martinez would laugh at.

Sack fucking everyone.

Peter Rogers
13 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:51:10
Lee I only mentioned Silva as he is the one being mentioned but personally I would love a big name like Simeone but that may be a pipe dream at present.

As you say, anybody would be an improvement on the clowns there know. Moshiri has to act or face flushing mega bucks down the toilet.

Tony Hill
14 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:59:04
I fear that, in due course, we may have reason to revise our currently low view of Allardyce's "survival only" credentials. Derek Thomas's analysis (#3) is accurate and it does not bode well.
Peter Rogers
15 Posted 05/02/2018 at 11:59:50
Totally agree, Michael – somebody must be held accountable now. It's pointless waiting till the end of the season, make the change now and at least then the new team will have time to assess the players well before the summer window.
Brian Harrison
16 Posted 05/02/2018 at 12:22:36
How the hell can anyone blame Moshiri for what has happened, he has backed his managers to the tune of £200 million. All you can ask of an owner is he backs his manager, that allows him to bring in the type of player he wants and not interfere. So far he has ticked all the boxes, and he is pushing on with getting a new stadium built. Yes maybe he panicked with bringing in Allardyce but these pages were full of posts with fans urging him to do just that, I have to say not me.

But he did offer Watford an enormous amount for Marco Silva, before turning to Allardyce. Lets also remember he offered Allardyce a 6 months contract so I don't think he saw him as a long term project. Yes he also brought in Steve Walsh as DOF a position that I don't think works well in this country. And I didnt see too many people objecting to his appointment.

Look I would love to see Simeone or Sarri from Napoli but guys it will need for us to be in the Champions league positions to hope to attract that level of manager. I would have no problems if Moshiri appoints Silva, and if he is still his choice he should agree a deal with him now to stop other clubs approaching him. For me Silva is a progressive manager and even with a bunch of journeyman players is not afraid to go head to head with top 6 sides. I remember earlier in the season Ray Wilkins saying that Watford had played Chelsea off the park at Stamford bridge despite letting a 2 goal lead slip. When was the last time you saw Everton go away to a top 6 side and dominate a game.

Peter Rogers
17 Posted 05/02/2018 at 12:40:39
Brian there is no way I was having a go at Moshiri. To my astonishment he has backed the club to a level we could only of dreamed about. In fact I feel sorry for him, he has been let down badly by an inept group of a management team.

I agree he has done all we could have asked of him up to now but he must get better advise and act before we get even further in the shit. He's an experienced and very successful business man and if he had the likes of these idiots working for him in any other company they would be gone.

Rob Dolby
18 Posted 05/02/2018 at 17:35:07
A big fear of mine is if Moshiri spits his dummy out and refuses to keep throwing money into a roaring fire that is Everton.

With this group of players we could be in Sunderland's position in no time.

Pay the money and go and get Eddy Howe. We can't carry on with this nonsense.

Paul Newton
19 Posted 05/02/2018 at 21:06:58

It seems to me that there is a malaise somewhere deep in the heart of Everton Football Club, which goes deeper than Sam Allardyce or Ronald Koeman or Bill Kenwright or Farhad Moshiri or any of the recent or current hierarchy...

For instance, recruitment. Why do we sign so many players who for some reason fail to live up to expectations? Klaassen, Keane, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson, Ramirez, and possibly on their showings so far Mangala and Tosun for instance? (Come to that, what really went wrong with Ross Barkley?) Is Steve Walsh responsible for all this mess, and if so, why is he still employed?

Then there are the performances of most of the team. Why so often do so many of them look as if they just don't care? We may disagree with Allardyce's team selection and tactics, for instance against Arsenal, but does this fully explain them being that bad? And it's not as if it was just that game; there have been several where they just seem to be going through the motions without any real commitment or desire.

What is the reason for all this? And I am sick of reading the 'We are all hurting' type statements from the likes of Ashley Williams, when it seems to make no difference in the next game. Actually, I've given up reading them now because I just don't believe them.

I can't help feeling that this goes deeper than the usual suspects. As I said at the start, it's as if there is a malaise deep at the heart of the club – but what is it?

Jim Wilson
20 Posted 05/02/2018 at 22:20:36
I just want to say Peter that we don't have a style of football because the constant changes to the team make this impossible to happen.
The constant changes mean we are still at a pre season stage with no cohesion, pattern of play, understanding, spirit and the team is not a solid unit just 10 individuals still trying to get used to each other.
And if the changes carry on we will go down, if not this season next season.
Peter Rogers
21 Posted 06/02/2018 at 07:53:41
For me it's all about stability and I realise that is two faced but we had a stable inferstructure. We have changed to much to soon and everyone from the playing staff to the chairman are trying to find there feet at the club. This has a knock on effect with the longer serving employees so ends up with the whole organisation being unsettled. So why ask for more change, because I don't believe any of us see Allardyce as long term so now would be an ideal opportunity to make yet another change and six months for the club to settle before next season.
Ian Bennett
22 Posted 06/02/2018 at 08:12:25
Rob - I think I agree on Eddie Howe. I worry defensively he's as naive as Martinez, but he'd be my choice.

Just can't see a big foreign name coming to Everton, and I am not sure one would work for us - Tuchel.

Ajay Gopal
23 Posted 06/02/2018 at 09:56:16
Conte may soon be available, but would he come to Everton? In my opinion, Eddie Howe would be a fantastic appointment, he is young, but has learnt the ropes of managing in the PL with Bournemouth for 3 seasons, and has got them playing good football. He is David Moyes (when we first appointed him), but with more PL experience and more attacking intent and a 'no fear' attitude. My only fear is that Arsenal will come in for him at the end of the season as a long term replacement for Arsene Wenger. Of course, if Bournemouth were to get relegated, then everything will change.
Mike Allison
24 Posted 06/02/2018 at 15:28:34
Eddie Howe supported Everton when he was young. He’d care at least.
Eddie Dunn
25 Posted 06/02/2018 at 15:51:17
Rob Dolby. what is the worry? Has Moshiri actually put any of his money into Everton? As I see it he has acted as guarantor to our loans and it is the TV dosh that we have been spending.

John McFarlane
26 Posted 06/02/2018 at 15:53:47
Hi Mike [24] so did Jamie Carragher, Michael Owen, Robbie Fowler, and Steve McMannaman (allegedly) and I don't suppose they give a 'monkeys' now.
Eric Myles
27 Posted 06/02/2018 at 22:45:02
Eddie #25, he also paid of debt of around £150m.
David Barks
28 Posted 06/02/2018 at 23:07:54
Eric,

He didn't pay off the debt. He gave an interest free loan to pay off the other debt. When he sells he will deduct that amount as going right back into his pocket. He didn't simply write a check and eliminate that debt, he rerouted it.

Ray Roche
29 Posted 06/02/2018 at 23:10:50
John (#26)

John, McManaman has said on numerous occasions that he is still a Blue. He said in a Times interview a couple of years back that the first result he looks for is ours, and always has been. As a Liverpool player he'd ask for our result in the changing room after a match.

He will still be used as a pundit and still sing LFC's praises when necessary but he was an employee, not a fan. They were his stepping stone to a wealthy future.

If Everton had offered him the same contract Liverpool did when he was 16 he'd have signed for us but, well, it's Everton isn't it? How many others slipped away?

And he ran his contract down with them before he left for Real Madrid!

Eric Myles
30 Posted 06/02/2018 at 23:18:27
David #28, the creditors still had to recieve the money and Moshiri paid them from his own pocket, whether by cheque or bank transfer.
John Keating
31 Posted 06/02/2018 at 23:25:47
Ray agree. I know McManaman is a Blue.
David Barks
32 Posted 06/02/2018 at 23:37:35
Eric,

But he didn’t just “pay” them. He issued a new loan to pay the old loan. It’s like when you refinance a mortgage, the bank issuing the new mortgage pays off the old. But it’s not a gift, it’s simply transferring that amount do to a new source. Interest free now, in Moshiri’s case.

But don’t think for a second that the money has just been wiped from existence, it’s still owed, now just back to himself. Meanwhile he gets the benefit of his business not making interest payments. I’m not saying it’s not a better option. But it doesn’t equate to him giving Everton all that money, he didn’t. He loaned it.

Derek Thomas
33 Posted 07/02/2018 at 01:12:00
*From what I've read over the past few years; so, without prejudice, in ball park broad term it goes like this. Agent Johnson increased the share volume to 35,000, some of which may have been debt turned to shares, anyway, he sold out for a decent amount more than he paid.

Agent Kenwright paid on average £800 per share when he accrued those and others over time.

Agent Moshiri sold his single figure % Arsenal stake to Agent Usmanov and bought 49.9% of Everton. Arsenal shares are now valued at £28,000, when translated values Everton shares at about £3000 and gave Kenwright a X4 profit.

Today the perceived wisdom is EFC shares are at £5000.

Hypothetically; When he's ready to sell on, all of Moshiri's interest free personal loans (debt in real terms) will be turned into shares. This amount, whatever it ends up as, will be divided by a price per share figure that will give Moshiri a new share holding % that comes to just under the magical 75%. aka, buy for £3k, increase you share holding at no real cost, sell for £5+k, job's a goodun.

Any non-Moshiri debt will possibly be taken on as personal loans in a similar manner by the new owner.

Moshiri still has options to buy further shares and who knows just how – if at all, it has to be said – Agent Usmanov fits into this... he has a nearly spare billion tied up in his Arsenal shares, "down the back of the sofa" money to him.

I put this all down just to get it clear in my own mind... it's all a mystery really, but not as big a mystery as why Schneiderlin still gets a game.

Eric Myles
34 Posted 07/02/2018 at 01:47:55
What you describe David is what Kenwright & Co did, rob Peter to pay Paul while increasing the debt year on year. Moshiri has put his own money in to help the finances, saving the Club £5 mill a year in interest wasn't it? And he could also convert that loan to equity in the future.
Eric Myles
35 Posted 07/02/2018 at 01:51:11
Derek #33, Johnson's increasing the shares to 35,000 was an injection of funds, not converted debt.
Derek Thomas
36 Posted 07/02/2018 at 04:21:28
Eric @ 35;Thanks for the info, I said 'may' because I wasn't sure, not being interwebbed up back then.
Michael Kenrick
37 Posted 07/02/2018 at 06:12:28
Derek,

I think putting it down wrongly is going to muddle things in your mind!

If you do the maths on Moshiri's shares, he paid £5k each, not £3k.

Hypothetical... but also wrong. I'm not sure he can convert debt obligation to shares as you suggest without making it a rights issue.

Phillip Warrington
38 Posted 07/02/2018 at 07:12:10
I think Moshiri's money is the problem, and I would say it won't matter who is brought in to be manager. Moyes never had a lot of money to use so he only brought in players who he thought could fit into the system he was playing, and I thought he did reasonably well.

Since Moshiri became involved with the club and the promise of all his riches, current and previous managers just went on a shopping spree, and thought the more good players we have the better without thinking too much about team formation and a footballing direction.

Most players that were bought are good players in the right system and who get to play regular football, but at Everton their not because we don't have any style or settled formation. To me, given current squad, it should be 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1.

Sam Allardyce is not an Everton manager and never was so whoever they get next they should sit down and define how they want Everton to play, sell or loan out players who don't fit the system they want to implement, and have them hired the minute the season is over. So they have til the end of season to convince someone.

I don't think Silva the answer or Howe. Look at someone from the German league or even some young manager who has past the highest coaching badge you can get. We need a technical manger who can improve the players, not a mouthpiece who just berates them every time we lose but, whoever it is, make sure they have a system or style of play they want to play and stick to it.

Laurie Hartley
39 Posted 07/02/2018 at 07:49:13
Michael, for me accounting is like a dark art – I have never been able to understand what accountants do with numbers. I am not knocking them – the shortcoming is mine.

Having said that, I have always hand a nose for when things don't seem to stack so when I saw the disparity between the share values both Derek and you quoted I decided to do a bit of googling.

Here is a link to a site that says the current value of a single Everton share is £2,500. How can that be?

Link


Derek Thomas
40 Posted 07/02/2018 at 10:03:54
Michael & Laurie, I wrote it as an exercise to get it as straight as I could in my own head, all from memory... the story so far as it were. At the start I made no claims for mathamatical accuracy. So any helpful corrections all gratefully received.

I believe 'debt into equity' is not unknown, my wording is that of a total layman.

All the facts are out there, any one who has better skills than me (not hard) - plus the time and inclination, feel free.

Iirc, @watchedtoffee, the esk and catcherintherye would be a good place to start, but don't quote me.

I feel the road to Moshiri's bumper retirement savings plan need laying out...eespecially if it impacts the on field stuff, which it is starting to with some less than stellar / 'iffy' appointments.

Laurie Hartley
41 Posted 07/02/2018 at 10:34:33
Derek - good luck with getting your head round it - unless you are the best phorensic accountant on the planet.

Indeed "the truth is out there" but it would take agent Scully to unravel it.

Phil Walling
42 Posted 07/02/2018 at 10:54:12
Moshiri has done no more - or less - than back the Club's managers with the club's money!

No hero, he!

Brian Harrison
43 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:07:27
Phil,

John Moores did exactly the same thing – he didn't spend any of his own money but went guarantor for all the money we spent. So I think its being a bit harsh on Moshiri to say he has just spent the club's money.

We wouldn't have been able to spend the £200 million we have already spent without him being a guarantor for the loans. Also, I don't think the money that went into Finch Farm was the club's.

John G Davies
44 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:11:24
Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the history of the Premier League (ie, since 1992) the only ones who used their own money are Abramovich and the people at Man City.

Phil Walling
45 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:22:10
Yes, Brian, John Moores was a positive influence until Catterick got sick and stopped advising him. You may have rose coloured specs because there were some real horror seasons during the lengthy time Everton were under Littlewood's influence.

I'm not suggesting Moshiri is anything other than a businessman out of his depth in the mad,mad world of football. And that is because he has been so badly advised by both Kenwright and Walsh and White.

What we have now is Villa Mark 2 -a dog's breakfast about to be regurgitated!

James Marshall
46 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:24:21
Football, and indeed all sport, is about consistency. You need it from the tea lady to the striker.

We chop & change all the time, managers, players, starting lineups, formations, you name it. I can only imagine how terrible the tea & biscuits are at Finch Farm.

Under Moyes we were consistent, maybe not the best, but we were consistent and it got us results (up to a point I grant you).

Since Moyes left we've just dicked about without any one single plan or identity. This to me is the root of the problem at Everton. Put more simply, pick a team and stick with it. Play the right players in the right positions too - that'll help.

And stop playing Schneiderlin.

Brian Harrison
47 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:41:56
Phil

I don't possess a pair of rose coloured spectacles and I think they would have more of a tinge of blue if I did.

I didn't mention anything about the playing side when Moores was in charge so I don't know why you brought that up. What I was saying is Moshiri is doing exactly what John Moores did, and without either being a guarantor for the loans we wouldn't have been able to spend the money we have.

Now whether the money was spent wisely under Moores and now Moshiri is a completely different subject, but maybe we can leave that for another day. I think if you have read any of my posts you will know that I have criticized most managers to varying degrees. So no blue-tinted glasses approach from me.

Phil Walling
48 Posted 07/02/2018 at 11:56:54
Sorry, Brian. I was responding more to the generally held view that everything was dinky dory in the Moores years, which it wasn't.

There is an oft held view that Moshiri paid off all the Club's debts and only his personal generosity enables our managers to blow upwards of £200 M on a bunch of no hopers.

The truth is he is a wide eyed innocent who could well trade the Club into ruination.

Eric Myles
49 Posted 07/02/2018 at 14:37:00
Michael #37, Abramovich converted debt to shares in Chelsea.
Tony Abrahams
50 Posted 07/02/2018 at 15:02:27
Moyes was given free reign to,run the club, and that his what he did. He kept us in a more than reasonable position, when,you consider his outlay, and he kept us in a reasonable position, when you look at the wage bill.

He's helped make Kenwright, (a man incapable of properly running Everton) an absolute fortune, but if you consider our standing in the modern game, I don't thinkeither of them have done Everton football Club, any real favours?

Michael Kenrick
51 Posted 07/02/2018 at 15:19:04
It is a puzzler, Laurie. My only rationalization is that the Blankstone Sington 'suggested' price applies to share swaps between individuals and that market has no other influences and exists in a rarefied vacuum.

In the big game-changing transactions, though, the prices have been very different:

1999 and Bill Kenwright paid only £853 per share, valuing the club at a paltry £30M. This was after knocking back Peter Johnson progressively over many months from an initial valuation of £140M. As Bill was the only bidder, he seemingly had all the time in the world... but still amazing he pulled that off.

2016 and Bill is in Fat City when he gets Farhad Moshiri to buy half his shares (and a load of others) at £5,000 each. That valued the club at £175M – a rather healthy Return on Investment for all concerned.

I have no knowledge of Chelsea, Eric, sorry.

Ray Roche
52 Posted 07/02/2018 at 15:22:59
Tony, with respect, I think Moyes saved this club and that is a real favour. When he took over from Smith we were relegation certainties and Moyes, in my opinion, kept us up. If we had gone down then we would be in the same boat as Blackburn are now, with no money and 12,000 crowds.

I am not a Moyes superfan and would not want to see his sorry arse back at Goodison but I am grateful for the impact he had on our club at that time. Okay, his negative ways could get on your tits but I don't go along with the oft held view that ALL his teams played negative crap. Many of the players he brought in would walk into our team now. Arteta, Cahill, Carsley, Yobo and Jags, Baines, Fellaini, Pienaar, Arteta, Coleman, Distin compare those to the dross we have now.

And please, let's not have a shedload of Moyes haters coming on and covering their keyboard in spittle as they rush to denigrate the guy.

John Pierce
53 Posted 07/02/2018 at 15:50:23
Posted this on another thread, seems more appropriate here.

The question I pose is as a fanbase what actually can we do? Moshiri has given us financial security, sacking Martinez apart made a succession of poor footballing decisions.

Surely we cannot rail again the man who has brought us financial stability but cursed us with footballing mediocrity for fear of him taking his ball home with him?

How as a fanbase do we exercise our displeasure at boardroom level at the appalling operational shortcomings at the club? Answer: we vent and fume at the face of the club, the manager. We hope that Moshiri will get the message through our disgust of Allardyce.

'Numb' is right because as much as we feel little for the on pitch matters we equally hamstrung in dealing with the root of the issue.

What will make Moshiri take notice without souring the relationship he has with the club?

Phil Walling
54 Posted 07/02/2018 at 16:01:39
Only falling gates used to be the obvious answer to that, John. Today, they don't even matter and he'll go on making daft decisions. Football-wise we were better off under Bill Kenwright... Amazingly ironic, eh?
Jay Harris
55 Posted 07/02/2018 at 16:04:05
If memory serves me correctly Johnson had the rights issue to help fund the Park end stand rebuild.

Also it is not uncommon for someone buying a large amount of shares to pay far more than the going rate but I do think Bill had Moshiri's trousers down at £5,000/share.

Coming back to the original question, it is hard to gauge what has gone wrong at Goodison Park because last season under Koeman we saw progress but whatever happened following the sale of Lukaku together with the incoming deals leaves a lot to be questioned.

Have some of the players down-tooled because of the high wages of the incoming "flops" and the lack of a centre-forward?

Did Kenwright have too much influence on the incoming transfers, thus pissing Koeman off such that he went on a golfing holiday, leaving the ship rudderless?

Did the lack of a normal preseason unsettle the ability and confidence of the players?

Was a tough opening fixture list too much for the squad to handle, with confidence diminishing by the week?

Is there something in the finances of the club that is causing concern?

Why has Steve Walsh retained such a position of influence, even advising the retention of Allardyce following such a failed transfer window?

Why haven't we recruited a quality left-back and a top-class goalscorer?

Why has form dipped so much again following Allardyce's initial success?

I'm sure there are many more questions although what we don't have is answers but, as sure as hell, there is something fundamentally wrong at Goodison Park.

Jay Harris
56 Posted 07/02/2018 at 16:08:44
Ray,

I totally agree about Moyes.

He doesn't get the recognition of what he did for the club at a time when Bill and cronies were doing their best to undermine everything that was being done on the playing side.

He did outstay his welcome by a couple of years though and was a disgrace after he left but we should acknowledge all that he achieved.

David Nicholls
57 Posted 07/02/2018 at 16:18:36
Ray@ 52 Spot on re - Moyes. I think in years to come, as supporters, we will come to increasingly appreciate the importance of Moyes's tenure.

Regarding our current situation, I feel the mess we are in is mainly down to important figures at the club (Moshiri, Koeman, Walsh & Kenwright) all pulling in different directions.

Hopefully we have learnt from this and in the summer, Walsh and Allardyce can restore some balance to the squad. I also hope a full pre-season with Lee and Shakey on the training pitch will have us firing on all cylinders come August.

This is Big Sam's chance to prove he's more than just a fire-fighter and barring a disastrous run, I think we should give him the opportunity to turn us around. If we are no closer to challenging the top six by June 2019 then we can choose not to renew his contract and look at more long term options. Howe and Dyche would be two really good candidates in my opinion.

I do have a gut feeling though that Allardyce may pleasantly surprise us.

Michael Kenrick
58 Posted 07/02/2018 at 16:42:10
An updated footnote on share valuation.

The Daily Star had Everton at 7th in the Premier League in terms of total value back in September 2107: £282.7M.

Divide that by 35,000 and it's £8,077 per share!

And that gives Kenwright's remaining interest (12.16%) a valuation of over £34 Million!!! I think I'm going to stop now.

Amit Vithlani
59 Posted 07/02/2018 at 17:23:35
It is tiresome treading old ground over and over to counter notions that Moshiri has not used his own money and invested equity in the club since his arrival.

1. Please read the press and several bits of analysis (which the TW Eds provided links to) in December when the club's accounts were released. Farhad Moshiri injected a total of £150m of his own money into the club as interest free loans with no fixed repayment date. The auditors treated it as equity, not debt, on Everton's balance sheet. The logic behind putting the money in this way is that to inject straight equity requires a share issue and would mean dilution of other shareholders - either Moshiri is prevented from doing this by the shareholder agreement or there is another impediment. In all cases, those shareholders owning a share are better off a result. He put his own money into the club without requiring anyone else to, meaning no one was diluted by his cash injections. These loans he gave are equity. Moshiri will never be able to call on the cash unless the club is sold. If the club is sold, why should he not be repaid? This is an investment, not philanthropy. However, at all other times he cannot demand his money back as there is no fixed repayment date.

2. All the analysis written and posted on this site pointed to the fact that the club's balance sheet is now a lot stronger. For starters, there is no interest bearing debt owed to banks. Equity is a good thing, and the auditors apply strict tests before allowing such treatment of capital injections.

3. He has injected cash, not provided guarantees. Please look at the club's balance sheet. There is no bank debt or third party debt amounting to £150M; the £150M was injected by him in cash.

4. He has not bankrolled the transfers with the clubs own cash. The club's revenues in the last financial year were insufficient to cover all its costs and outgoings. We know it had insufficient resources to pay off its debts (as it did) and invest a significant net spend on transfers (we are 3rd overall in the Premier League). That excess of expenditure and cash outflow over revenues was principally funded by his money.

By all means, the man deserves a lashing for the farcical situations we have faced this season as far as managerial comings and goings, the appointment of Steve Walsh, the continuing presence of clowns on the board, the weak commercial operations, a Stadium Funding structure that places huge reliance on the LCC, and his idiotic and imbecile comments to Jim White and on the AGM.

But not putting his hand in his pocket and backing the club? That is not a stick he can or should be beaten with, and perpetuating this non factual line of attack undermines all the other valid criticisms.

Regarding the share price, the share price is the Equity Value divided by the number of shares.

Equity Value is arrived at be taking the overall value of the enterprise and subtracting its liabilities.

When figures are bandied about in the press, it is a highly speculative calculation to take such figures and calculate the share price, not least because when someone says Everton are worth £280M, you can't automatically divide by the number of shares. You have to establish first if that figure ("the worth") refers to the equity value of the club or the value of the enterprise as a whole.

If it is the latter, then the equity value and hence share price would be lower.

(Enterprise Value = value of the club overall; Equity Value = value of club after subtracting its liabilities, since that is what accrues to the equity/shareholders)

Tony Abrahams
60 Posted 07/02/2018 at 18:35:06
Ray, if you read what I say, then I'm saying he done a very good job for Kenwright. I never disrespected Moyes in my post, but he was only really good enough to manage Everton, because of who our owner was.

It's only my opinion, but do you think David Moyes, would have been given more than four years at Everton, in any other era, than the era of the holes in our shoes, or should that really be, the era of "the hole in our finances?"

Jay Harris
61 Posted 07/02/2018 at 18:51:19
Good post Amit,

I hope that "font of knowledge" David Barks is reading it so he doesnt make an ass out of himself next time he posts..

Michael Kenrick
62 Posted 07/02/2018 at 18:53:25
Perhaps the Equity Value is even higher, Amit, as you state the debts have in large part been converted to equity. So those liabilities will have been substantially reduced?

But I agree, the calculation is probably meaningless. An Everton share is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it, which is all down to current perception and seemingly has nothing to do with such calculations.

John Keating
63 Posted 07/02/2018 at 19:00:53
Good one Amit.

Nice to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about rather than someone who thinks they know what they're talking about.

David Barks
64 Posted 07/02/2018 at 19:09:11
Excuse me, Jay? I clearly said it is a far better scenario than the interest we were paying out to third parties. I'm simply pointing out that this action wasn't done as some charitable gift to Everton, as some want to make out. He owns this business, so he took that action because it was in the best interest of his business. It's saving him money. What in the hell is your problem?

This is completely separate that the other conversations around what he's really invested in the plying squad, when you analyze players sold vs players brought in over the past few windows. Watching Stones, Lukaku be sold off, while also agreeing to sell Barkley and Niasse, before losing £20 million on that deal when Barkley refused to go until the winter.

Moshiri's action regarding that loan was clearly a smart business move. But it wasn't out of the kindness of his heart. That's all I have said.

John Pierce
65 Posted 07/02/2018 at 19:09:28
Jay,

I believe once Lukaku turned the contract down in February ‘17, Koeman already not the most committed, lost interest.

He knew Lukaku would bail him out of a lot of situations, whilst covering some cracks. Once Rom switched off around March we were awful from then on.

Koeman interest flickered with the transfer pot but once he didn’t get what he wanted he was to my mind there in body only.

Rudderless.

John G Davies
66 Posted 07/02/2018 at 19:14:18
Wasn't the loan interest free?

Far better scenario Dave Barks?
And one he didn't have to take I would suggest

Ray Roche
67 Posted 07/02/2018 at 20:01:35
Tony, the only point in your post that I referred to was the inference that he had done us no favours. The rest of my post was to nip in the bud any anti-Moyes tirades before they started. I didn't mean to offend in any way.

As for how much time he would have been given in a different era, well I doubt if he would have been given as long as he got. Just as a point of interest, who do you think could have been more “successful” in as much as he did save us from the drop?

David Barks
68 Posted 07/02/2018 at 20:28:56
John Davies,

Yes, he paid off loans that we were paying interest on with an interest-free loan. What the problem?

John G Davies
69 Posted 07/02/2018 at 20:45:00
No problem at all Dave.

Just that you appear to be suggesting that what Moshiri did was the norm amongst Premier League clubs.

Do you know of any other major shareholders that have done that?

David Barks
70 Posted 07/02/2018 at 20:59:53
Abramovich and Liverpool’s owners did the same thing. It’s standard practice because otherwise they’d be costing themselves money.
John Keating
71 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:16:53
Standard practise? Must mention that to Kenwright.
Dave Abrahams
72 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:21:04
John (71), talking of Kenwright, there is a topic on another Everton web, the title is: Rumour of Kenwright on the way out. Don't know of any news elsewhere but I feel like dancing, and I can't dance a step.
John G Davies
73 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:29:01
Is Moshiri our owner?
John Keating
74 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:34:07
Dave could we be that lucky?

He can certainly afford to leave us especially with the windfall he has made out of the Club.

It would be interesting to see, when he does do the right thing and go, what legacy The World's Greatest Evertonian leaves us. Could he use part of his windfall and buy back Finch Farm and gift it to the Club?

Doubt he'll do anything except maybe set up a new London play about a poor job-lot actor who mortgages his bed sit in Manchester to buy a football club, makes masses of dosh but can't get a stand named after him as they've all been taken. He accepts the men's bogs at the home end in the new stadium. Kenwright's shithouse. Very apt.

David Barks
75 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:47:28
John Davies,

Of course Moshiri is our owner. He owns 49.9% of all shares.

As for Kenwright, he can not be gone soon enough.

John G Davies
76 Posted 07/02/2018 at 21:56:52
Majority shareholder with less than 50% then?
But not sure about owner to be honest Dave.
David Barks
77 Posted 07/02/2018 at 22:27:56
John,

What are you talking about? Who in your mind is the owner? This has all been covered over and over again on here. He’s the owner. He owns by far the most shares and of all the known shares there is no ability for a single other block to outvote him.

Tony Abrahams
78 Posted 07/02/2018 at 22:40:42
That's a good question Ray, and one I don't know the answer to, if I'm being honest. I could have said a man who I don't like called Rafa Benitez, simply because he dug out the yanks, when he knew they were kidding the fans, and it used to make me laugh, when people used to say we should go and get Rafa. (He would have lasted less than Trevor Birch, especially with Bill, being "our savior".)

Moyes looked after himself, more than he looked after anyone else, but it wasn't his fault that most people failed to see how much he was in bed with Kenwright, and who can blame him? Especially the way he was clapped out of Goodison Park.

The fact that you ask who could have been more successful, probably proves my point though Ray, because you and me both know that keeping Everton, in the big league, is not really a success, unless he was working for the worst chairman in the world!?

Ray Roche
79 Posted 07/02/2018 at 22:49:50
Tony, the traitorous way he slithered away from Goodison really finished him with me. I can certainly appreciate the good work he did at Everton, despite his cloak of negativity, but he really pissed on his chips with his underhanded departure... and the disrespectful nature of his attempted transfer dealings re Baines and Fellaini.

Yes, a lot of people backed the Spanish Waiter to come here. My brother, a Red, would love him back across the Park. He's his own man, I'll say that for him.

Laurie Hartley
80 Posted 07/02/2018 at 22:55:01
Thanks for your response, Michael, and also your post Amit. I am still bamboozled as to what the value of an Everton share is though so I am going to ask Amit a question.

Amit: if you had a spare $1million to buy Everton shares (and they were available as suggested by Blankstone Sington) how much per share would you be willing pay for them? Would it be £2,500 or £5,000.

Ray Roche (#52) – all those Moyes players would walk into the current team. Only Walcott would get a game with them.

David Nicholls (#57) – when most around you have panicked you have kept your head.

Amit, Ray, and David to replace, Elstone, Walsh and Kenwright on the board.

Tony Abrahams
81 Posted 07/02/2018 at 22:58:37
Agree with you about Moyes, Ray, who incidentally showed us what kind of man he really was when he thought he'd hit the big time.

I just think that although we were considered the best of the rest on many occasions, it wasn't that long ago that we were the 4th most successful team in the country, but once you lower expectations, then expect to be treated like a king.

John G Davies
82 Posted 08/02/2018 at 07:16:43
Fuck me, you've got a short attention span, Dave. We were talking about if Moshiri was the formal and legal owner.

Is he?

Ray Roche
83 Posted 08/02/2018 at 10:00:43
Tony, it seems an age ago that we were real contenders for a top 4/5 slot yet here we are now, the equivalent of the "And finally" at the end of the Ten O' Clock News, usually a story about hedgehogs or similar.

Oh, how the mighty are fallen.

Clive Rogers
84 Posted 08/02/2018 at 11:08:02
The rot started with Kenwright and he’s still there. I for one can’t take any more of him.
Michael Kenrick
85 Posted 08/02/2018 at 15:08:33
John G, why do you keep raising his "owner" business? What is it you're looking for?

Is there even such a thing as the "legal owner"? As Dave says, we've been through this a thousand times. The shareholders each own a piece of the business. Moshiri owns more shares than anyone else. But he does not own all the shares, so he is not the outright owner.

He may or may not be the 'majority' owner depending on how you define that term. Strictly, he holds the plurality of the shares... but that just sounds weird.

I would say he is the effective majority owner. But what on earth does it matter? He owns more shares than anyone else. What else matters?


John G Davies
86 Posted 08/02/2018 at 15:18:34
I haven't read it a thousand times Michael. Must have missed the posts.

I was interested in if Moshiri was the "outright owner" as a fellow poster mentioned Moshiri only doing the same as the owners of City and Chelsea. Clearly it's not the same situation, so thank you for passing your expertise in the financial world on.

You accept we are all not as clued up as you seem to be?

Michael Kenrick
87 Posted 08/02/2018 at 15:56:53
The situations are probably not the same, John, because each club is different. The ownership is different, the finances are different, the circumstances are different.

But in more general terms, I believe the point being made was that there was a change in the ownership at each club, and they each made changes to the financing of their respective clubs.

You seem to be hung up on whether they used their own money? Amit seems very certain Moshiri used his own money. He used it (in part) to buy off the bank debt and convert it to interest-free loans with no repayment date. Is there a problem with that?

John G Davies
88 Posted 08/02/2018 at 16:14:30
I don't get hung up on anything Michael. Waste of energy.
I leave that to others.

Problem for who?

Dennis Stevens
89 Posted 08/02/2018 at 16:16:21
I think that back when we were the "Merseyside Millionaires", John Moores provided interest free loans to the Club. It's nothing new, after all, why pay more to borrow from somewhere else?
Brian Williams
90 Posted 08/02/2018 at 16:22:35
Owner Shares % of total shares

Blue Heaven Holdings Limited* 17,465 49.90%
W Kenwright CBE (Chairman) 4,256 12.16%
J V Woods 3,116 8.90%
Other Shareholders 10,163 29.04
Total 35,000 100%

Just to clarify for you John G. There is no single "owner" of Everton there are a number of "owners", as above.

Moshiri is the majority shareholder (yes with less than 50%) as no other "individual" owns as many shares as he does. Being the majority shareholder, he calls the shots because even if all the others voted against him (some shareholders are untraceable) they could not outvote Moshiri.

Clear now mate?

ps: Farhad Moshiri is sole beneficial owner of BHHL *

Michael Kenrick
91 Posted 08/02/2018 at 17:02:37
So why are you asking if Moshiri is the legal owner? The formal owner? The outright owner?
John G Davies
92 Posted 08/02/2018 at 19:16:59
Errrrr,

Because I wanted to know.

Don't see your point there to be honest.

Anthony A Hughes
93 Posted 08/02/2018 at 19:31:11
Did the £200 million for transfers come out of Moshiri's pockets or was it Sky, BT and incoming transfer money?
Brian Williams
94 Posted 08/02/2018 at 20:02:43
If it all came out of Moshiri's pocket he must wear those massive clown pants!! :-0
Anthony A Hughes
95 Posted 08/02/2018 at 20:06:52
Or down the back of a very large couch.
Brian Williams
96 Posted 08/02/2018 at 20:23:56
One of those DFS four seaters!

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