He who dares...

by   |   30/04/2018  53 Comments  [Jump to last]

The long debate over whether Sam Allardyce should be removed from his post or not seemed dead and buried when a recent ToffeeWeb poll revealed that up to 95% of those who voted wanted him gone. There was no way back, at least that's how it seemed. He was virtually friendless, even the 5% who voted in his favour were keeping a low profile...

What a difference a couple of victories have made. These two wins may have been instantly forgettable, but they have yielded 6 points and, with the promise of another 3 to follow next week, Sam is gaining support from the less-informed members of the media. worse still, a growing number of our own fans are declaring their support and want him to stay.

Farhad Moshiri must be sweating like a glass blower's arse. He has sacked two managers already and he is coming under intense pressure to sack another... Unless he is deaf, dumb and blind, he will know how deeply unpopular the prospect of Allardyce being in the dugout next season really is. But for a guy known more for his business acumen than his football knowledge, he will want to protect his investment and the best way of doing this would be to stay in the Premier League, no matter how ugly it gets.

Moshiri has a decision to make. Does he want to consolidate and make a nice profit when he eventually sells, or does he want to shoot for the moon knowing success could make the value of his shares rocket? If it's the latter, Sam simply has to go.

As a club, we have lacked ambition and adventure at just about every level. We have appointed cautious manager after cautious manager. What a roll call...

Moyes would often go right up to the water but could never summon up the courage to drink. He stunted the progress of his teams (and he built some decent ones) with his own inability to believe. The glass ceiling was created.

I know people see Martinez as attack-minded but his possession obsession ensured we played most of our football in our own half. The guy put the shackles on the most exciting pair of fullbacks in the league when they were in their prime and couldn't figure out why we played without purpose.

Koeman was a nightmare, I hated that every performance was dependant on whether Lukaku was in the mood or not. "Tell-it-like-it-is" Ronnie was eventually proven to be full of shit. I honestly believed the football his teams regularly served was a bad as it got... but what did I know? Allardyce was to prove me wrong — and how.

What really depresses me is that Goodison Park — once renowned throughout the game for the incredible atmosphere generated by its hostile inhabitants — now feels more like a chapel of repose. A few visitors paying a hushed respect to the dead people in the middle... and all four of the managers mentioned above have had a hand in it. Since Moshiri took over, I can only remember the old lady rocking four times — and three of them were for a stand-in manager simply because he asked his players to show a little passion.

I`m done with the cautious approach; I`ve had a bellyful of possession obsession. I can't take any more Zombie football, I feel nothing but shame when I think of Allardyce's gutless game-spoiling approach and I feel totally desolate when I hear Evertonians asking for more of the same.

This club needs to rediscover its soul!


back Return to Talking Points index  :  Add your Comments »


Reader Comments (53)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Lee Mandaracas
1 Posted 01/05/2018 at 13:13:24
I wholeheartedly agree with your disdain for Allardyce Darren. The things that gall me most about the recent pundit backing of him are multiple.

1) They clearly have only looked at results/points and not performances, or how much good luck where we'd usually have had bad was involved in those points accrued!
2) They talk of him being brought in to save us from relegations but we were thirteenth, not third-from-bottom! I honestly believe Unsworth would have got a minimum of what we've had under Allardyce had he remained until the end of the season. Look at the West Ham result Sam fraudulently tried to take credit for as evidence of this.
3) His habitual tendency to take credit for the good and pass buck for the bad, along with the denial of emphatic criticism from all angles seems to be ignored by them.

I believe he is a stain on the managerial history of this club to rival Mike Walker. To give him any credit at all pains me but there is one thing and that is his transfer activity inwards. Is Cenk Tosun up there (or likely to be) in the Lukaku mould? No, but he is the best we've had since. Walcott was, on current evidence, amazing value at £15m. All that said, let's not race to pat Sam on the back for these. They could have been the solitary work of Steve Walsh but who knows. Both Sam and Steve still need to be shown the door in my opinion.

Ian Burns
2 Posted 01/05/2018 at 13:35:26
Darren, I still think 95% of supporters want Allardyce gone (count me in big time). The supporting voices you are now hearing are from the 5% who have suddenly dared to show up.
Paul Tran
3 Posted 01/05/2018 at 13:43:47
Completely agree, Darren. For me, it's the absence of zip, of energy, of bone-crunching challenges, of sheer will and cussedness that bothers me. None of that costs anything.

I've said it before, if the 'project' still stands, Sam will go. If he wants to stall it, Sam may yet stay. Moshiri's got an even harder decision. Is there any point in Sam being a lame duck, one-year contract manager? Logic would dictate he gets longer than one year if Moshiri really wanted him, so the greater logic is just to get rid half an hour after all sides of the London Stadium tell Sam what they think of him.

It's a good job to take, if you've got real coaching skills, the ability to communicate your ideas and organise & motivate a bunch of confused and, in my opinion, reasonably good players.

Rob Young
4 Posted 01/05/2018 at 14:11:51
Well put, Darren.
Dennis Stevens
5 Posted 01/05/2018 at 14:21:00
Hear! Hear! Darren.

I don't think there's a hope in hell that Allardyce will crack on next season & challenge the top six. Tbh, I'm not at all confident that Allardyce would even do as well next season as he has this. I would be anticipating a lower mid table finish rather than the upper mid table finish we seem to be heading for.

Kevin Tully
7 Posted 01/05/2018 at 14:29:04
As Evertonians, we really don't ask for much, do we? Win the odd derby game, give it to the Mancs now and again, a 'good run' in the Cups (spit) and watch a bit of footy that will get the crowd going. All the managers we employ are looking after their own reputations, rather than trying to break down any barriers. They don't want to suffer any heavy losses, they go to away grounds like Anfield, or Old Trafford to 'get out alive' and to be honest, you can slightly understand that mindset, with all the trigger happy owners in the Premier League. Would you want to lose a £6m salary by opening up against the likes of Man City?

Saying that, any managers who come to Everton shouldn't have those excuses. We have spent a fortune. Allardyce was given £50m in January! We have one of the most expensively assembled squads in the whole of Europe, with a wage bill to match. Watching that Everton team go to Anfield and hoof the ball away like a Sunday League side was the lowest point of the season for me.

Darren is right, we want to see some excitement. I don't know who the next manager will be, but Allardyce will only carry on setting his team out in precisely the same way as we've witnessed this season.

As I say, we don't ask for much. We are asking for value for money from players and managers alike. Earn your money and give us something to shout about.

It's the end of season awards tonight. They should all be ashamed.

Lawrence Green
8 Posted 01/05/2018 at 14:49:59
As you say Darren, it all depends on what Moshiri's priority is, glory or cash. As Evertonians we all hope it's the glory, which in turn will lead to more dividends for the shareholders. I just finished reading Gus Poyet's views on the Guardian website and there are similarities to Sunderland and Everton, god forbid we ever suffer as much as the Mackems have over the years, but they are a cautionary tale to any club that loses sight of what the real objectives of a football club should be about.


There’s something inside Sunderland, something at its very core,” he [Poyet] says. “It’s hard to explain but there’s a way of life, something deep down, that makes it difficult to fulfil its potential. Niall Quinn criticised me for saying so but later talked about ‘gremlins’; then Paulo Di Canio talked about that moment when you get your head above the parapet and … bang! There’s something there, something I couldn’t find. If I knew what it was I’d say but I don’t. But it’s there and needs to be changed at the root.

Gus Poyet

Ray Robinson
9 Posted 01/05/2018 at 15:31:29
Darren, I have frequently disagreed with your submissions - more often about the way you delivered them rather than the content. However, I find myself largely in agreement with you here. Being the original poster suits you?!

I would be more than happy to see the back of Allardyce but only if we can get someone better, which is easier said than done in my opinion. Now I know that I'll be jumped on by lots of people reeling out a list of suitable, available managers but, contrary to what some people think, I don't believe that there's a huge supply of candidates out there who would jump at joining Everton. The successor would need to be a) a proven winner and not some foreign mercenary b) someone who knows how to respect the club (i.e. not another Koeman) and c) someone who is likely to stay and implement a longer term plan. Additionally, that new man needs to ally success with entertainment.

As you say, that's the dilemma Moshiri is facing in trying to protect his asset while preserving top flight status and not alienating the fans. I do not envy his challenge.

Where I do suspect that we still differ, although you make no reference to it here, is that I simply have no faith in the current squad of players to provide that entertaining football. So that's where it becomes more than just changing the manager.

If we could dig out a few more Walcotts at a reasonable price, then maybe it would be possible (I thought Bolasie would be one such player but he's seemingly just turning out to be a step-over show pony). Until then, we're stuck with ageing players, some with little or no pace, midfielders who don't contribute to the goals tally and an imbalance in certain areas of the team. After last year's spending spree, I'm not sure Moshiri will want to shell out another huge wedge with the new stadium on the horizon.

So, regrettably, it could be a few more years of survival football - with or without Allardyce.

Steve Brown
10 Posted 01/05/2018 at 15:48:23
Darren, great article. As Lawrence intimates in his post @ 8, there is something wrong at the core of Everton as a club. It is the institutionalised acceptance of mediocrity and failure that infects the entire enterprise - it is frozen in its failed operating norms and loser culture. The board can enjoy the riches of involvement in premier league football, knowing that failure will be accepted.

Why? Because we as fans have been conditioned to accept it. Finishing 8th in the league is great and the manager should be retained - it doesnt matter that we are 19th in the table for every factor linked to positive play. Sack the manager? We should go for Fonseca, Silva, Howe, Dyche but not Sarri, Tuchel, Emery, Mancini or one of the top guys.

"No, never, no way" our new club motto, while the red shite who dared to aim for a top manager are in the top 4 and semi-finals of the CL. Defeated and defeatist, well I am fucking sick of it of it for one as it this mindset - courtesy of 20 years of Kenwright - is killing our club.

David Barks
11 Posted 01/05/2018 at 15:54:22
It’s funny how much can change get stay the same. Last season I too was disappointed with the football, was never in favor of Koeman in the first place. But we had Lukaku who could single handedly win us a game and Barkley could have a good game from time to time.

Still, we had many on each pages blaming the stale football on Lukaku, preaching that if we just get rid of him the rest of the team would be able to play better. Repeatedly people said the team was set up to serve Lukaku and that was holding us back. I said we should do whatever we can to sign a couple more big name players to convince Lukaku and Barkley that Everton could fulfill their ambition, or at least delay the inevitable for another year or two.

Instead of doing what you are supposed to do and build around a star core we sold. Yet, we’re still finishing around where we did last season, just a little bit worse but with much worse football. The scariest thing going into this summer in my eyes, other than the prospect of Moshiri retaining Allardyce, is I can’t see a star core to build around. Davies, Calvert-Lewin? Not a chance. Walcott, is a of player but not to be built around. I think we really need to get an exciting manager in that can find that exciting attacking talent.

Amit Vithlani
12 Posted 01/05/2018 at 16:24:12
There are a few glaring problems which have been poured over on this website, and more often than not, these have been home truths which have been ignored or opposed by the media and mainstream coverage of the club.

We've had teary Bill eulogised as a model chairman, when in reality he trousered a boat load of cash from the Moshiri deal have invested comparatively little himself.

We had Moyes toasted to the rafters as the man who helped us to punch above our weight, when in reality he benefited from the generosity of teary Bill, who made him the central figure at the club, unsackable, and who was consequently able to enforce a glass ceiling on our ambitions that could have been breached with greater bravery, ambition and tenacity on the Ginger One's part.

Then we have had the self styled Marmite Allardyce, stoutly defended on these pages and yonder, whose supposedly excellent record glosses over an unbelievably dreadful and negative set of performances, a very average points per match ratio, and a favourable set of conditions available to him which were not available to either of his predecessors this season.

Conjoined with the Marmite Allardyce issue is an alarming downgrade in expectations since Moshiri has taken over. From promises of a top 4 challenge in his first press release on taking over, ratcheted down to a top 6 placing sought after the summer of heavy spending, to now fighting it out with Burnley and Leicester for 7th-9th.

The patronising tones from several quarters - how dare we Everton fans hope for more - completely overlooks the statements and promises made when Moshiri took over.

Moyes and Kenwright set the tone. Martinez, Koeman and Moshiri threatened briefly to challenge it. But we have now reverted back to mean, giving a platform to the nay sayers who believe we should be grateful for avoiding relegation and grateful for another nondescript season...rather than expressing contempt for the shambles we found ourselves in, resulting in a golden opportunity to rise up being squandered.

It is this corrossion of our hope to challenge the established order that will be embodied if Allardyce is allowed to remain. Kenwright and Allardyce have to be marched out if that hope is to flicker again.

But my confidence in Moshiri is now low enough to recognise that the man may not truly be capable, or indeed willing to, turn us into diners at the top table, with all the risk, skill, bravery and tenacity that entails.

It is at times like this that I realise how lucky the club was to have the custodians it did from the 1960s-1980s. The current incumbents, for all their cash flashing corporate sound-bites ("as long as I am a shareholder financial issues are not a problem"), have shown no such competency. Difficult challenges lie ahead, as we nervously watch the glass ceiling morph into one made of re-enforced concrete.

Lawrence Green
13 Posted 01/05/2018 at 17:13:15
I clicked on this story by Mike Keegan for the Mail Online, with hope and expectation...

West Bromwich Albion are looking into the possibility of bringing Sam Allardyce to the Hawthorns.

Baggies officials are keen on a move for the Everton manager should he leave his current post at the end of the season and have made preliminary enquiries, Sportsmail understands.

Allardyce's contract at Goodison Park, worth around £6m a year, does not expire until 2019 but he remains unpopular with sections of the club's support

Only to be met with this section:

It is understood that their feelings have been noted by Everton officials. However, elements of the club's top brass have been pleased with Allardyce's impact and the idea of extending his contract by a year has been aired.

Is this a case of a report highlighting how in demand Big Sam is and why we should keep him?

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

14 Posted 01/05/2018 at 17:18:45
Darren's opening mistakenly claims that, after a couple of wins, Sam Allardyce is gaining support from Everton fans, who in increasing numbers, want him to stay.

I'm not hearing or seeing that on match days. It certainly isn't the case for the still overwhelming majority who post on TW.

On his other point, I have only disdain for the media talking heads who are coming out in great numbers castigating the Everton support for their hostility towards Allardyce. They fail to take into consideration a number of mitigating circumstances just why the support feels as it does. Ignore 'em!

Darren is closer to the mark when he says Moshiri has a decision to make on what direction, what sort of football club, he wants for Everton.

Again, Darren is closer to the truth when he alludes to a historial 'lack of ambition and adventure at just about every level'. And on that score, it has been less about our managerial appointments and more about the overall governance of the club in the entire PL era.

We are more than 2 years into 'Project Moshiri' now. This coincided with the considerable windfall from the mega-media deal which places pretty much every PL club - regardless of their history or status in football - into the top 50 of the world's richest clubs.

Indeed, there are 10 PL clubs in the top 20 clubs alone, with our own Everton currently occupying 20th position. This has been reflected in unprecedented (for Everton) purchases in the transfer market in that time.

Now whilst there appears to be movement on the new stadium front (as yet, still unfulfilled), other than that, can we honestly say that Everton has made good appointments on Moshiri's watch, or that we are a slicker, more professionally run club?

I would suggest, 'No. We haven't.'

And for me, that has to be our starting point. The merits or demerits of our managers, past and present, is a diversion from what should be our focus.

We need a strong, savvy and visionary CEO with full executive powers to sweep away the cobwebs of the apparent 'old boys' club' mentality of cutting deals in 'gentlemen only clubs' over a fine port and Cuban cigar.

I have previously flagged up the ex-Southampton chairman Nicole Cortese as the man with exactly the right sort of profile we should recruit for that role. We need someone similar to his standing to really shake the tree at Everton to even start to get close to those competitors above us.

If we are to retain the Director of Football role, we need clarity of just what his objectives are. I was of the understanding, when Steve Walsh was appointed, it was with the idea that the club intended to develop and apply a 'football philosophy and playing style' across all age levels.

The DoF's player recruitment would be dictated by this philosophy and playing style so that, when inevitably there was a change in manager, there would be continuity and not major upheaval or disruption.

Well, already in his time, Steve Walsh has worked with 3 managers of very different styles. And lest we forget, Walsh was instrumental in pushing to appoint Allardyce last year.

We have city-based posters on TW who keenly follow and attend games at different age groups. Can any of them inform us if they can identify a 'common football philosophy and playing style' across the age groups? I'm guessing there probably isn't.

Taking that into consideration, can anyone say, in all honesty, that they can see evidence of any of the above in what Steve Walsh does as the club? Personally, I doubt he has the skill set to fulfill the job description.

Now if reports are to be believed, Walsh's position is under threat from PSV's Marcel Brands. Whether that means Walsh is dismissed, or moved sideways within the club, we don't know. Similarly, like every appointment, including every incoming player we sign, we don't know what Brands can add to Everton, or how he will perform.

Such is the nature of any and every appointment. It's a roll of the dice that may, or may not, work out well.

This is all highly speculative at the moment because nothing has been confirmed by the club. But should Brands be appointed, is he coming in knowing who the manager is likely to be next season, or is he coming as a 'package' with a prefered manager he wants to work with?

Now simple commonsense says that manager cannot, should not be (and should never have been!) Sam Allardyce.

The issue for me is not his less than charming personality or his self-aggrandizing public utterances that evidently inflames so many on TW.

It is his football and his football philosophy.

I think in his time he was more innovative than some are willing to give him credit for. But what was innovative then is commonplace now. Indeed, sports science continues to make enormous strides and is applied at most professional sports clubs.

Football evolves. Yes, older ideas and tactics may be recycled and refined, but the 'keep-it-tight-and-nick-one' football on which Sam Allardyce's football is largely based has been seriously usurped by modern day coaches of a different generation.

Watch nearly every team that reaches the KO stages of the CL. They play at a level of football we can't even begin to dream about at Everton.

Every player - from goalkeeper to left wing - is comfortable and technically adept on the ball. Every player is not stressed to receive the ball in tight situations, closely marked.

There are 'player triangles' wherever the ball is where each player pings one-touch passes between each other, to both suck in the opposition players, play around them and create openings on the offensive.

There is speed and stamina throughout the team. Tight pressing is evident. Transitions from defence to attack are electrifying and deadly.

Yes, we need the correct type of players to play like that. But we also need the manager capable of coaching it and transferring it on to the pitch on match day.

Sam Allardyce himself (unbeknown to him) admitted he is not the man to deliver this when, just last week he said in his post-match Newcastle interview: "I can't be held responsible for the players hitting misplaced passes".

Well, actually Sam, you can and you are.

The tika-taka football first introduced to Barcelona in the 90s by Johan Cryuff is now commonplace - with variations - throughout the world.

Curiously enough, possibly the first time we saw it being applied on these shores was by an ex-Everton manager (but not for Everton). Mike Walker, no less.

Who recalls being twatted 5-1 at Goodison by Walker's Norwich? That was when he took Norwich to a 3rd place finish in the inaugural season of the PL. The following season, against all expectations, in their only ever European excursion, they travelled to Bayern Munich and won 2-1 - the first English team to win away to BM.

Why do I refer to Walker and Norwich? Because I recall discussing with mates their style of play - all very similar to the description I gave above - and we agreed: it wasn't by fluke, off-the-cuff stuff. It was evidently reheased and practised on the training ground and then applied on match day.

Walker's efforts at Norwich is what landed him the Everton gig. Only...it didn't work out, did it?

Sam Allardyce, 25 years on from Mike Walker, has never come close to producing the type of football the modern game now demands.

To that I can add, if Allardyce is retained for the remaining 12 months of his contract, where does that leave us on the recruitment front this summer? What agent, what player, would risk signing for a manager on such borrowed time?

And yet...there remains that nagging doubt that - based on the numbers that shows Everton's form since Sam arrives places them in the top 6, together with this late season rally - Moshiri could be persuaded to give Allardyce those additional 12 months.

It's not as black and white as some wish to paint it. Sam Allardyce is a symptom of much more historical and deeper lying problems at our football club. His removal will not be the single cathartic cureall some apparently believe it will be.

Don Alexander
15 Posted 01/05/2018 at 17:27:48
Good article Darren, but even I think you might have justifiably poured some invective towards Kenwright again, as suggested by Steve (#10).

Concentrating so much on Allardyce enables him to escape due notice as the 20-year failure he's made us, and he's still in effective control over just about everything operational at Finch Farm according to Unsworth. Unfortunately, I also agree with Ray (#9) that we have too many players who'll never make the levels required of a top six club.

Kevin Tully
16 Posted 01/05/2018 at 17:34:33
I wouldn't judge Moshiri too harshly just yet. It has been reported that part of the deal to purchase his majority shareholding was to keep the Chairman & CEO in position until this August.

He may well be champing at the bit to modernise this club from top to bottom, but cannot put his strategy in place until certain people have been removed. Personally, I'm not convinced Moshiri has a master plan, but this summer will reveal all.

Pete Clarke
17 Posted 01/05/2018 at 17:35:33
It's not as if it can be that hard to get rid of him anyway because he gets a wad of dosh, big handshake and walks off with his reputation as a fireman well and truly intact.

However, if the board are not in unison on any proposed new manager then Moshiri is maybe shitting his Keks in case he gets it wrong again.

We need to know as supporters because seriously, what is there to look forward to next season if he stays???

John Pierce
18 Posted 01/05/2018 at 18:36:28
Kev.

I agree with you to a point. Moshiri has already made some poor poor decisions. Maybe influenced by Bill & Elstone.

But if he truly understands his weaknesses, why appoint Walsh? The key element here is the DoF, this should allow Moshiri to leave footballing matters to the appointment.

If he fails this summer to get that right then my patience for him will wane quickly.

Keith Harrison
19 Posted 01/05/2018 at 18:53:40
Darren, you've summarised what you, me and a number of others have put on most other posts on ToffeeWeb lately. We aren't asking for City-like silky footy, Messi swaggering in midfield, or Brazil in their pomp. We want whole-hearted performances where our team has given their all, regardless of their own level of ability, because that's their limit.

We have been called the tenth least exciting team in Britain. They must have judged on the West Ham game, methinks for us to be so low.

Remember the goal of the season, Rooney against West Ham? If Allardyce had actually been in charge of the team then, that goal would never have been scored. Allardyce by then would have produced statistics that only 0.3% of all shots from your own half were actually scored, and anyone trying it would be fined a fortnights wages.

Moshiri needs a huge sweep right through the club, top to bottom, but he absolutely must ensure there is room in the skip for the Sams, Walsh, and Shakespeare (remember him?).

Walkout on 78 minutes on Saturday in a protest at the running of the club, not just Sam. A silent protest, but enough to make our intolerance of mediocrity clear.

I'll even let you buy me a Jameson's, Darren.

Mike Gaynes
20 Posted 01/05/2018 at 19:11:14
Spot on, Darren, especially on the media idiocy.

However, I agree with Ian #2 -- I don't think the opinion of the fan base has changed one iota on the fat guy.

Kev #16, agreed on Moshiri, too soon to criticize him until he's in full control. But it's not important that he have a master plan -- just that he hires someone who does.

John #18, if Bill does stay on until August as per the agreement, you may have to extend your patience until then.

Keith, I think I still have a tab open at the Winslow. Put the Jameson's on it.

Keith Harrison
21 Posted 01/05/2018 at 19:25:08
Mike, if you can still delete, remove that last sentence mate. Otherwise there will be about 1500 "Keith's" sipping Jamesons in there on Saturday. On you!!
Mike Gaynes
22 Posted 01/05/2018 at 20:59:35
No worries, Keith. They know you.
Andy Crooks
23 Posted 01/05/2018 at 21:54:32
An excellent post, Darren, backed up with a decent post from Jay. My fear is, however, that a couple of more wins will get him a contract. I disagreed with you about Koeman and, to my regret, defended him well past the point of sanity. I just cannot see how a couple more wins will fool anyone but it will.

I only get to a few games now and, in fact, cancelled my last one, therefore I do not get a sense of what the real mood is. I have a good friend, who is a Scouser and travels back from Belfast to Liverpool. He is a season ticket holder and is in two minds.

He doesn't want to renew his ticket because of Allardyce but believes if he doesn't, he may miss out on a new dawn.

Darren, you go to the games, you get the atmosphere. One word answer so I may sleep tonight. The biggest bet of your life. I offer you 4/6 Allardyce to stay. 11/8 to be gone. Which will you put your money on?

To me the 4/6 is money for old rope. Please, tell me I am wrong.

Dan Davies
24 Posted 01/05/2018 at 22:06:46
If Moshiri has any bollocks about him both Allardyce and Kenwright will be disposed of at the seasons end.

... and so shall it be!

Paul Tran
25 Posted 01/05/2018 at 22:46:20
Andy, I'd smash into the 11/8.
Paul Kelly
26 Posted 02/05/2018 at 02:08:25
I'm afraid the idiocy doesn't just end with the media – various fans of other clubs are lapping up the hyperbole too.

I had a conversation with three fans: West Ham, Palace and Arsenal, basically told them I wanted Allardyce out, the Hammers fan laughed (in agreement); the Palace fan thought he was a good fit; and the Arsenal lad thought I was mad as Big Sam had taken us from relegation to 8th!!

When I told them we were 13th when he took over, they didn't believe us at first... and when I told them they could have him as their manager – well, you can guess what they told me?

Which brings me onto my main point I told the uneducated who stood before me: that I'm pissed off with this "plucky little Everton" tag – why the fook should I, you (the reader), or any fan be grateful for what we've witnessed this season, last season, or any season of your choosing in the past quarter of a century?

This bullshit rhetoric that Kenwright and Moyes infested into the masses; “plucky Everton”, “knives to a gunfight”, “10th is a great achievement for a club like Everton”, and now Big Sam and his media bile spouting bandwagon. Fuck off...No!

8th position and this dull, dire, soul-destroying anti-togger is not what I signed up for! I want more and I wanted it yesterday (but will wait until next season).

We need ambition and a plan. Over to you, Mr Moshiri.

Darren Hind
27 Posted 02/05/2018 at 05:48:27
I'm worried, Andy.

I would like to say with a degree of certainty that Sam would be gone, but I disagree with those who are saying Sam's 5% are just getting a little noisier. It's not what I'm hearing or seeing. I think a few are being influenced by empty-headed fuckers like Garth Crooks

There are, as we all know, an awful lot of Evertonians who just go the match. They have an opinion of course, but going the match is what they do and they will do it regardless of who the chairman, manager or tea lady is. I just get the sense that it's this group who are looking purely at the points and saying "Well... You know."

This is all gut feeling, nothing factual or scientific, no concrete evidence. I applaud the passion of people like Brian W getting on everyone's case and urging them to email their feelings; I like and will support Keith's posts about everyone walking out on 78 minutes, but I suspect 20,000 people will not even know that's the plan.

Many of the match-going Evertonians can be accused of being "too good" for this club; predators like Kenwright have abused their loyalty for years, so will Allardyce.

I'm not normally a fence-sitter, but this all rests on Moshiri and he hasn't been the most predictable leader since his arrival. I guess all we can do is keep fighting the good fight, urge as many as we can to act. Hopefully, wing commander Tully and his squad have arranged a fly-over too. I suspect the major shareholder will only act if enough pressure is applied and, if it's not, Sam will almost certainly portray this as "proof positive" that the fans are behind him.

In answer to your question, My money will be staying in my pocket. I cant call this.


Eddie Dunn
28 Posted 02/05/2018 at 07:31:39
Paul Kelly, one of my mates (a QPR fan) turned to me and asked, but where do you want to be ? You are 8th -that seems about right for Everton!
Outside of our cult the rest of the footy world don't see much of a problem (except WHam and Newcastle fans!).
Paul Smith
29 Posted 02/05/2018 at 07:44:37
Come on Darren I get some might not be convinved by the 18 & 78 minute protest but to say we're listening to Garth Crooks is extreme.
Ray Roche
30 Posted 02/05/2018 at 07:46:10
Darren, would that odious little shit Garth Crooks advocate Allardyce for his beloved Spurs? Would Shearer have him back at Newcastle, or Saunders at Anfield?
These idiots should keep their puerile opinions to themselves. Football would be better off if these so called "expert" were banished from the screen.
Allardyce is poisoning this club of ours, he should never have been allowed anywhere near us.
John Keating
31 Posted 02/05/2018 at 07:52:45
In a way it's a great pity a few years ago we didn't get more support for the Blue Union campaign.

If we had, we might not be in this position and having these conversations now.

Ed Curry
32 Posted 02/05/2018 at 08:03:05
There is no way I'm going near Goodison until our much loved manager has gone. Watching paint dry is more exciting, and I know quite a few with similar points of view.
Tony Abrahams
33 Posted 02/05/2018 at 08:11:06
Protests are not normally our style, but surely we can't take much more of Allardyce's style, but as Darren says, a lot of Evertonians won't even have a clue, if something is arranged.

I remember I used to sit by a fella and his lad who came from Runcorn, and they never had a clue about the bestway site, just off greaty. I was trying to explain to them where it was, so close to Lime St, that it would be easy to walk to once they got off the train, but they never had a clue about it.

Brian Williams
34 Posted 02/05/2018 at 08:32:46
Thanks for the backing Darren#27, appreciate it.

What I'd like to say on that is that the emails that get sent in DO get passed on and the club "welcomes honest feedback from the fans."

This is from a club official. I can't really say more or go into it but if you haven't sent an email SEND ONE even if it's only to the customer services dep't asking for it to be passed on to whoever.

I asked if it was possible to get a refund on my season ticket as I didn't want to watch our present managers brand of football and pleaded with the club to appoint someone who would at least attempt to play football in a manner that befits our club.

I didn't write personal slurs and kept the emails as business like as possible.

As I said on an earlier thread "IF YOU DO NOWT THEN DON'T MOAN."

Derek Thomas
35 Posted 02/05/2018 at 08:49:26
You wouldn't know what Moshiri will do, because I don't think he knows himself...There in lies the problem - Lack of direction.

I bet he's rueing the day he let Kenwright talk him into this in this half arsed 49.9% 'take over'...I know I am.

Danny Baily
36 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:05:15
It's not a question of how bold we are.

It was never a question of how ambitious Moyes was.

He simply wasn't as good as other managers. And the players he could afford weren't quite as good as other players.

It's vey difficult to break this mould, this seems to be our lot.

That said, money has not been spent wisely in recent seasons. We have not bought players in to balance the squad. Key positions (LB, CB, ST) have not been filled. Players have been signed based on reputation.

To some extent Sam has put an end to that. One more season for me, let him see out the end of his contract.

Michael Lynch
37 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:26:57
Ed @32 and others - and yet, the weird thing is I have seen less empty seats at Goodison this season than ever before. Every game has been a sell-out, and we haven't seen the big gaps where season ticket holders haven't turned up like you got at The Emirates when they were trying to get rid of Wenger. I would guess that most Evertonians are fans of the club and will turn up whenever they can, whoever is in charge and wherever we are in the table. They may well want a different manager, or a different striker, or a different kitman or whatever, but it's the club we support, because we are the club.

I have every respect for those who want a change of manager. If we can find someone to set the pulse racing, a first-choice who is the right fit, like the Shite did with Klopp, then bring it on. In the meantime, I would imagine the vast majority of our fans will turn up again next season, whether it's Sam or some other second choice in charge. I know I will. And if it is Sam in charge again, and we carry on picking up results like we have done recently, then I doubt if I'll be moaning too much. Especially if the likes of Walcott, Coleman and Tosun carry on producing the goods individually.

Sorry if that doesn't fit into the narrative of those on here who hurl abuse at anyone who doesn't toe the "get that fat fraud out of the club" line, but it's amazing what you hear when you listen to the less vocal fans.

Paul Tran
38 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:28:03
Ray #30, I replied directly to both Crooks and Shearer on Twitter with questions similar to yours. No response.

The general view of people I speak to around the UK Is that we're a 6th/7th/8th team and that Sam's 'sorted us out'. Oh, and that Kenwrights a great chairman 'after all the money he's put into the club.' They consider us in passing, so pick up the headlines on us and take it as truth.

I make sure I tell 'em all.

All we can do is keep telling and hope those in control take notice.

Phil Walling
39 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:42:13
Throughout the Premier years, our club has set out its stall to be just outside the Top Six. During this century we've averaged eighth place finishes which to my mind is indicative of the investment made in the squad by the Board. It has satisfied Kenwright's agenda of keeping us in the top league with something to spare.

Most of us saw the introduction of 'a money man'as a sign that ambition was improving but then came the realisation that unless the money was spent wisely and the team coached by a forthsightful, competent and industrious manager, even staying in the top half would be a struggle.

Like others before him, Sam has shown that without needing to take any risks even the overpriced and lacklustre squad he is blessed with can be organised to re-claim our natural position but as for challenging for honours - forget it !

Because of the naivety of Moshiri, the only hope for a brighter future is the appointment of a visionary Director of Football who can steer him and the club through all the traps that await the newcomer to the game.

His old mate Wenger would do.

Tony Abrahams
40 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:44:45
Good post Paul, and it just goes to show that it's not just Evertonians, that Mr Kenwright has kidded.

Michael, some good points, but I can't really comment on individual players, because I haven't watched much of Everton lately.

I love Everton, I would and have gone most places to watch them, but other than reading ToffeeWeb, it's like this season finished ages ago.

I like Allardyce's professionalism, but it's 99.9% substance, and 00.1% style. I know it's a results business, but the only thing good, that's gonna come out of this type of football, is that the sky bubble will burst, and bang average footballers, who don't give a shite, will stop earning ridiculous amounts of money for offering us next to nothing.

Brian Harrison
41 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:54:27
Darren I agree with everything you say in your original post, but then in your post 27 you say "there are an awful lot of Evertonians who go the match irrespective of who the manager is or the chairman or tea lady". Then you go on to say "its this group who are looking at the points gained and say well you know.

How dare you suggest that match going Blues only care about points over performances. I don't know if you go the game because if you did you know these fans above any other demand performances, its these fans that travel home and away that have been protesting inside the grounds about Allardyce. Something non of the far flung Blues on these pages ever do. I have renewed my season ticket and I don't know who the manager or chairman or tea lady is, as you say its what we do and I have been doing it since 1956.

I will give you a little advice don't attack our loyal match going fans, its totally disrespectful without them this club is nothing. I sit in Upper Bullens and I can tell you that everyone round me feels the same as me we shouldnt have hired Allardyce in the first place and we don't want him here beyond the last game of the season.

Laurie Hartley
42 Posted 02/05/2018 at 09:59:53
Phil # 39,

I think the DOF role would appeal to Wenger and suit him down to the ground at this stage of his life, however if the press are correct, Brands is going to get that gig.

Pity - we haven't had much success with our forays into the Dutch sector of the beautiful game.

Brian Williams
43 Posted 02/05/2018 at 10:24:59
Brian, in Darren's defence I don't think he was "attacking" fans he was merely pointing out that there are a number of fans(and depending which way you look at it) who are loyal and will go the game no matter what (Darren does by the way) or they can be viewed as accepting what we have if they're not prepared to do anything about it.

I've moaned all season about the drab, boring, unadventurous footy we've played. It's not the first season we've done it.

I'm not one who comes on here and slags Allardyce off on a personal level but I want him gone.

The reasons I want him gone are:

1) I want a manager who wants to play attractive football.

2) I want a manager who WON'T accept defeat before the game's kicked off.

3) I want a manager with some class who we can all take to, a man who won't hang players out to dry when it suits and accept no responsibility when things go wrong.

4) I want a manager who will set a team up to try to win games against the top teams (derby game at home springs to mind).

Maybe our current situation ISN'T Allardyce's fault, maybe we SHOULD accept that being an upper mid table team is the best we can hope for but look how many teams below us have beaten teams in the top six and played some good football along the way too.

If you're happy with our lot, or not, Brian that's your prerogative mate and I'm not going to slag off a fellow Blue for his opinion but when I think back to that Newcastle game and how I couldn't even be arsed getting off my seat when we scored it breaks my heart to see what our situation has done to ME!!!

As some say Allardyce has done what he was hired to do, great. What's wrong with now getting someone in who can do MORE?

If some think he's the man that CAN do it with financial backing and a summer transfer window then so be it,I can't do anything about that.

What I can do is let the club know my feelings and hope they have the people to make the right decisions at the right time.

Anyone else who feels the same should do the same.

Dave Williams
44 Posted 02/05/2018 at 10:52:56
The Allardyce situation is a bit like Brexit... With Brexit a large amount of people want us to leave now and see what happens... Then on the other side, you'll have the lot who wants to know what the deal is before we leave...

With Brexit am in the camp to say fuck it leave now and see what happens, but with Everton, I would want to ensure that something better was in place before getting rid of Allardye...

Funny, am more concerned with Everton than the country...

Brian Harrison
45 Posted 02/05/2018 at 10:59:43
Brian

As I said in my post I didnt want Allardyce anywhere near our club and I hate his style of football, going to Goodison is not a pleasurable expeirience for any of us that go to the game. My criticsm of Darrens second post was he was insinuating that some match going fans were prepared to put up with Allardyce if he keeps us in the Premiership. I have to say I havent spoken to any match going fans who think like that.

Everton have never bought the right manager in my opinion, I will still argue that if Moores had left Carey in place he would have done all that Catterick did and more. When I look at how Busby, Cullis and Shankly embraced European football where Catterick treated it as an unwanted extra games. We should have Signed Clough as manager but again Moores was too frightened to have such an opinionated manager, he would have been iconic for us as Shankly was for them. I was lucky enough to meet Shankly on a few occasions and even as a blue you couldnt fail to be impressed by him.

Brian Williams
46 Posted 02/05/2018 at 11:00:21
I'd expect nowt less Dave ;-)
Dave Abrahams
47 Posted 02/05/2018 at 13:40:40
Brian (45), Do you really believe that Johnny Carey would have done all that Catterick did and more? It's long ago but what makes you think that.

Agree about us signing Brian Clough as manager, the best English league club manager ever for me.

Paul Tran
48 Posted 02/05/2018 at 15:45:44
Dave & Brian, just as bad was the Bobby Robson fiasco, where everything was agreed and we blew it by talking to the press before he told Ipswich.
Darren Hind
49 Posted 02/05/2018 at 19:03:44
Brian Harrison,

I'm struggling to even imagine how you read my post and came to the conclusion I was "attacking" Evertonians. Did you actually read what I wrote?

I did not state that all matchgoers will not protest – I said an awful lot of them won't. I don't lump all the matchgoers into one pot, I'm too long in the tooth for that. I know there are a wide variety of opinions amongst them.

Disagree? Then let me give you some advice: Take your phone and scan around at the end to see the thousands and thousands who will stay ... Staying to applaud the lap of dishonour.

I have given my ticket to my Grandson's mate, I won't be there (my protest) but I can assure you these kids will be beside themselves when the players walk past them... and there will be thousands like them. Is anybody going to take the magic away by telling them to join the hostilities?

The people who stay behind are not the enemy, they are not bad people, they are a non-political section who quite simply go the match. For them, the game and the matchday experience is the be-all and end-all; contrary to "attacking" them as you falsely claim, I describe them as "too good". Their loyalty and attendance is unconditional and charlatans like Kenwright will abuse that all day long.

I'm also wondering how you think by claiming you have been going the match since 1956 you can dismiss the efforts of the "far flung"? Really unfair... Some of them would love to be there to vent their anger; they can't, but many of them will have left the club in no doubt as to their opinion of Allardyce through the various mechanisms which are available to them.

Your outrage is misdirected, Brian.


Tony Abrahams
50 Posted 03/05/2018 at 07:54:01
Brian Harrison, I just think Darren, is voicing his concerns about mutterings in the media, but I'm sure their must be some match going Evertonians who want Allardyce to stay?

My own view is that once the away fans start slagging the manager, then there should only be one outcome. These people travel the length and breadth of the country, and are usually the die-hards, who will spend their last penny on the team they love, and usually they only offer support.

Trevor Peers
52 Posted 03/05/2018 at 08:43:44
Even if we found the right manager, the dream of playing free-flowing attacking football is a pipe dream – decades of under-investment and miss- management can't be put right in one quick fix.

Shooting for the moon is not an option; if we ever did, we would probably get battered every week and eventually be relegated. Martinez dared to play attacking football with an ill-equipped squad and we ended up having the worst home record in our history. We have to be pragmatic or go bust, which do supporters prefer?

I'm sure we will find a better manager than Allardyce eventually, and play more attractively, but that won't mean we'll suddenly start playing like Man City. Unless we find a serious backer, like they did, it's always going to be a struggle, we have to accept it. The dreamers will always tell you it's possible because Leicester have managed to break the mould; effectively we'd be looking for someone to perform a miracle.

Andrew Clare
53 Posted 03/05/2018 at 08:55:52
The good news is that despite all of the negatives- 20+ years of decline, poor leadership-Kenwright, new owner with no idea-Moshiri, an embarrassment of a manager-Allardyce, the rip roaring success of our neighbours, Everton are still a big club with massive potential that just needs to be harnessed in the right way. A few key appointments and all can change. A new stadium will makes us a very saleable item attracting big investment. We can do it but we have start now.
Jerome Shields
54 Posted 03/05/2018 at 09:07:44
In defence of Darren (27). All Everton supporters are long-suffering and should be supported by their fellow supporters.Particularly since we have realised what mugs we were to accept the level of underachievement the Board was prepared to accept, because of the loyalist of fan bases.

I think like Darren the current situation is totally unacceptable and a fan is perfectly entitled to blow a fuse and be forgiven by other long-suffering fans.

Keith Harrison
55 Posted 04/05/2018 at 18:18:54
Darren, if you're not going to the game tomorrow, when ARE you going to get me a drink?
The planned walkout has gained some support - and I can say without contradiction that every season ticket holder near me, and every Evertonian I know has no kind words for Allardyce - but there still seems a languid acceptance of our lot as Evertonians.
"What will happen if Sam goes, who will you replace him with? I don't like Sam, but "

I'm really getting more to thinking we have absolutely what we deserve because we either can't be arsed, or are afraid of any alternatives to the board, manager, coaches and every bit of mismanagement to befall our once mighty club.

Enjoy the rest of the season, and hope for some sanity arriving at the club within the next few weeks. Enjoy your hols and lets meet up on here for a new bitch next season. Stuff the World Cup, won't be many of ours involved.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.




© ToffeeWeb