Paper talk in The Express and The Sun suggests that Chelsea have an interest in stealing Tom Davies from Everton.
The papers claim that Tom Davies is one of a handful of players Antonio Conte is considering signing after Roman Abramovich gave him the thumbs up to spend.
The Russian billionaire is reportedly prepared to splash an extra £140 million on players with Conte supposedly keen to secure Davies.
But Chelsea would face a mammoth task to convince the 19-year-old and Everton to do business. Davies impressed for the Toffees last season after breaking through into the first team under Ronald Koeman and has assumed incredible popularity among the Everton faithful in his showings for the team.
Reader Comments (145)
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1 Posted 25/07/2017 at 08:46:07
We hear this morning that our very own Tom Davies may get shipped out along with Barkley.
Koeman seems obsessed with midfielders... Seems 'our man' is keen to 'de-Evertonise' Everton before he moves on. That's the new broom philosophy, I guess!
2 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:05:57
3 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:10:27
4 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:22:28
Aren't they part of the same group as TalkShite and Sky?
If this is true, which is unlikely, is it okay if we refuse to sell him because he is under contract?
5 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:23:44
I wonder if Ross looks at Davies and thinks 'I could do that if I worked a lot harder.' Just a thought.
6 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:26:15
I want to see Davies, Dowell, Kenny get game time and something sustainable rather than to compete with the mega bucks approach of Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd. Old fashioned maybe but that approach hasn't harmed Spurs too much.
7 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:28:04
8 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:30:33
Chelsea wouldn't play him, Everton would sell him and Davies looks happy and has no reason to go – it sounds complete tosh.
Thank goodness there is a game Thursday to take everyone's mind off all this speculation.
9 Posted 25/07/2017 at 09:35:34
Dave, interesting point regarding Barkley looking at young Tom, and thinking that if he worked harder he could become a much better player...
But I will bet you a pound to a penny that Davies looks at Barkley and thinks about what you are saying more than Ross?
10 Posted 25/07/2017 at 10:41:35
11 Posted 25/07/2017 at 13:27:30
He broke into the team last season after being benched initially and I can see him doing it again. Morgan and Gana seem to struggle in the same team and Tom would complement either of them and provide the energetic pressing that Ron likes to see. If we sell midfielders it will surely be Ross and James.
12 Posted 25/07/2017 at 18:08:08
Some dubious reports are suggesting Chelsea are interested in him? That would be a long drive for his Mum to take him to training.
13 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:26:05
14 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:27:11
15 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:34:10
16 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:42:04
If Chelsea really want to buy Thomas then slap a £300m price tag on him and then we can buy dozens of Siggys.
17 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:48:13
Please qualify that statement. As I understand things, Koeman's issues with Barkley are his lack of consistency, and reluctance to sign a new contract.
Davies signed a new contract, and won a place in the starting XI with consistently good performances (regardless of his age).
18 Posted 25/07/2017 at 19:54:38
nb: I'm a massive Davies fan – him, Gana and Schneiderlin are my kind of footballers. Unreal.
19 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:00:16
Who knows. Football transfers are the original home of fake news and with so many football sites on the internet it could have come from anywhere.
20 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:06:53
Christopher - I wouldn't be surprised if he only has two or three years left. (Look at Mirallas - he's not even 30 yet...)
21 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:09:49
22 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:34:29
23 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:36:34
Okay, but that doesn't leave Chelsea any money for other players?
24 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:41:38
Well, half-a-dozen Siggy's anyway, lol.
There is no way Tom Davies would leave this club, especially right now, apart from a Pogba type transfer x 3 & that would be the club doing it for the £300 mill, not Tom choosing to go! Yeah this really feels like individuals trying to undermine our club, yet again!
25 Posted 25/07/2017 at 20:44:52
I'm interested in driving a brand new Aston Martin to Heidi Klum's house and really interested in winning the lottery.
26 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:10:33
27 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:35:04
28 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:35:59
29 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:40:26
30 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:42:29
31 Posted 25/07/2017 at 21:56:50
Anyway, it's too far for his Mam to drive him to training.
32 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:05:28
33 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:06:14
A link with no substance. Move on everybody.
34 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:08:03
35 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:19:30
As Ed (#6) mentions, Koeman – make that most Premier League managers – are reluctant to play young talent because they would prefer to buy tried and tested players.
After all, it's not their money, they're not bothered how much the club spends, as long as they keep their jobs.
36 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:23:16
In all seriousness, who comes up with this garbage. Not happening.
37 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:27:35
38 Posted 25/07/2017 at 22:42:59
In my opinion, Tom won't be a starter every week this season but, if he moved to Chelsea, he wouldn't kick a ball in the Premier League... Carling Cup at best.
39 Posted 25/07/2017 at 23:05:45
40 Posted 25/07/2017 at 23:19:31
41 Posted 25/07/2017 at 23:44:49
I know that's a big call, but I seriously think Everton, from top to bottom, that's the major shareholder, to the chairman, the management team, recruitment team, fanbase to the tea lady, know exactly what we have got here, a rare gem in modern football,put pure and simply, a real football player, with football in his blood, Everton blood.
This is no Wayne Rooney, Franny Jeffers or Ross Barkley... this is Tom Davies – this kid is our future, this kid is already very much a part of our now, part of our club. It is embedded in his ancestry, that is challenging at the top again, partly due to his and our enthusiasm for his enthusiasm and joy at playing for us – just look at his smile.
Make no mistake about it, none of our hierarchy are underestimating the importance of this future captain of ours, hence the Dixies.
42 Posted 25/07/2017 at 23:55:25
43 Posted 25/07/2017 at 00:00:57
44 Posted 26/07/2017 at 00:35:46
It must be true. I've just seen a cockney dressed in black and white striped clothing, wearing a Chelsea FCbalaclava, carrying (over his shoulder) a large black bag with blonde hair protruding from the top. Tiptoeing he was, dodgy geezer!
45 Posted 26/07/2017 at 00:42:39
All joking aside, though, it didn't take the gutter press long to latch on to another one of our assets, did it? They couldn't wait for our Chelsea-bound player for 4 years to sign for them Sorry, I forgot, he had a dream and has always wanted to play for Man Utd.
Then it was Ross... But who has come in for him? No-one up to now... so the Gutters have bandied him around all the top 6 including the RS.
So who next after Tom? If Sandro proves to be the bargain of the century, then no doubt it will be him. Or if the prodigal son has reached double figures by Christmas, what's the odds on an emotional return to Man Utd? As I say a load of bollocks.
ps: Did anyone else read that Rom was hooked on Man Utd after his first visit to Carrington... Funny that, seeing as they are still in America and have been since he was still under contract with us. Tapping up by his bromance buddy Pogba, me thinks.
46 Posted 26/07/2017 at 00:44:47
47 Posted 26/07/2017 at 01:34:10
We all want to win something this season and one of the domestic cups would be great. I have this Europa League being a serious undertaking. I can't see Everton wanting to sell some of our better players to anyone simply because we don't have to. Having said that, every player has a price.
48 Posted 26/07/2017 at 01:59:11
49 Posted 26/07/2017 at 02:16:16
50 Posted 26/07/2017 at 02:33:58
Writing sensationalist headlines based on no substance what-so-ever is what they do best. I'd send in an application pronto, include that quote and you'd be a shoo-in!
51 Posted 26/07/2017 at 03:01:34
52 Posted 26/07/2017 at 03:01:43
"Nice" one. You managed in both of your posts, to deliberately ignore the obvious meaning of Christy's words that you quoted.
Koeman treated the public to a very negative "Examination" of Barkley's performances, exclusively among the team members.
As for Barkley not signing the contract, Koeman's unprofessional PR handling of Barkley remains the only factual element amongst all other speculated aspects of the contract saga, that might be a cause for his not signing.
53 Posted 26/07/2017 at 06:04:44
54 Posted 26/07/2017 at 06:44:56
Maybe a couple of years ago, we'd have crumbled at the sight of a pound note for one of our brightest stars, but those days are gone.
55 Posted 26/07/2017 at 08:03:03
56 Posted 26/07/2017 at 08:10:05
57 Posted 26/07/2017 at 08:43:47
Phil slagged Martinez, from the minute he arrived, and he also got it right, so how the fuck can Koeman, be "de-Everton-ising Everton"?
The club, are starting to act like the club it was when Sir John Moores was in-charge, and it's quite possible that Koeman could pick a team to start tomorrow night without a single Martinez player in the starting eleven all in the space of 12 months?
Koeman, is de-Martinez-ing, us, but Moshiri, is hopefully revitalizing us, which is something you could do with yourself Phil!
58 Posted 26/07/2017 at 08:55:39
Davies is going nowhere. It was Koeman that gave him his chance to shine.
59 Posted 26/07/2017 at 09:12:47
If it's the half-dozen I predict, it will be the lads themselves who will be agitating for a move. And rightly so!
60 Posted 26/07/2017 at 09:23:02
I find it perplexing that Phil Walling would prefer to believe this to be true, just so he can criticise Koeman.
And Phil, both Kenny and certainly Davies will start more than 6 games. Hopefully Dowell can make an impression too. Anyway, when they do, Will you come on here and admit you were wrong?
61 Posted 26/07/2017 at 09:39:10
I admit I do have concerns over Tom, especially if we sign Sigurdsson, and with Rooney also playing in midfield. Yes, he is young and will need to be taken out of the team from time to time; I just hope his progression is not hampered with the new signings.
62 Posted 26/07/2017 at 09:45:41
Geoff (#54) you say you would accept £140m for Tom but, as far as I am concerned, he is priceless. I've watched The Blues for over 40 years and my own personal opinion is Tom epitomises to me all that Everton are about and what I love about them.
I know we have had other so called young true blues come through namely Wayne and Ross but for some reason Tom seems different somehow.
I believe he can go on and star for us for a long time. I know that this might not happen but can dream that it may. I wouldn't sell him for anything.
63 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:29:31
Maybe the success of the Under-20 World Cup team has given this more impetus recently. If so, Everton are in a very strong position, having had 5 players in that side, plus us winning the Premier League 2 title.
As the best of our youngsters progress and become more prominent, we're bound to get reports of interest from other clubs. It won't just be Davies, it will also be Dowell, Calvert-Lewin, Kenny, plus young signings such as Lookman.
It's fertile ground for the media at the moment, not just the rags.
64 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:30:33
If 'our own' kids get a good crack of the whip, I shall be happy (but only if they turn out to be as good as we think they are)! Come to think of it, if he finds a way to win without them, I'll still be happy because winning is what it's all about.
But apologise? Now that's another matter! (Just kidding!)
65 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:44:48
66 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:46:48
This happens with so many rumours and before you know it the originating drivel gains credibility just because it fill news links on mobiles.
Then we get in a flutter and fall out. Meanwhile the likes of Russell are spending the fiver they got for advancing the reputation of journalism!
67 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:50:54
Ahg! Walling and gnashing of teeth.
68 Posted 26/07/2017 at 10:52:10
69 Posted 26/07/2017 at 11:05:52
The negativity they constantly spout about our club makes me suspect which club they are really supporters of, just like the BBC constantly talking the country down saying we can't do this & can't do that.
Tom Davies has great potential but is still raw and needs protection and to develop; some of the doom-merchants on here seem to forget that Koeman was very keen that Tom be given time to rest in the summer and not become burnt out by globe-trotting with England.
Fitness permitting, I'm confident we'll see him making a contribution this season, in spite of more competition in the middle of the park.
70 Posted 26/07/2017 at 11:06:11
Some rage against the club; others speculate that players are willing to leave because of game time/issues with the manager. Anyone with a sound mind just dismisses it as shite.
Christy and Will stick their "Barkley is bullied by Koeman" jabber in.
Phil Walling (#1}. "De-evertonising Everton"? What does that even mean? If you mean selling off crap players and getting players fit, then bring it on.
71 Posted 26/07/2017 at 11:19:21
72 Posted 26/07/2017 at 12:13:54
73 Posted 26/07/2017 at 12:34:17
Let's hope that Davies is a grounded individual. I think that he is. But who knows?
Let's hope that the club keep him grounded. Let's hope that Koeman values him. Let's hope that he remains an Everton player for years to come.
There have been a few players that have left Everton that I admit that I did not wish to see go. Davies would also be on that list. He's our future.
Let's see just what these youngsters can achieve at Everton. Everton need to end this transfer nonsense right now. And it is nonsense. Nonsense that should not be allowed to fester.
74 Posted 26/07/2017 at 12:35:48
You ignore that Koeman gave Davies first team football, in a very important position, in the first place. Davies, who started 18 Premier League games (24 appearances), as an 18-year-old, along with a series of other sub appearances.
You also ignore Koeman's readiness to give other young players games. A 20 year old Holgate played 18 games (16 starts). Lookman (19) joined in January, and played 8 times. Calvert-Lewin (turned 20 in March) appeared 11 times. Which manager, and team, have done better this season in terms of playing youth players? I don't see many/any.
Koeman also gave chances to youth players at Southampton Targett and Ward Prowse were involved heavily. And as for the obsession with buying midfielders how many senior midfielders have we brought this summer. 1? Shit - We've gone insane. We've sold two ffs!
Sorry Phil but you are coming over badly. Embarrassingly even. You've got this pre-conceived narrative and refuse to contextualise it in the context of the league as a whole, and ignore all the good work Koeman has done. We've are competing in Europe this year - We need players. Adding ONE midfielder ahead of that campaign is hardly ridiculous is it? If Sigurdsson comes, he comes because Barkley is going.
If you want to complain, at least make it sensible and articulate. This is just a angry nonsensical rant based on some journalistic gibberish.
It's amazing how the two biggest dissenters on this forum so often fail to contextualise, and make a proper argument. Not that it is telling or anything...
75 Posted 26/07/2017 at 13:20:04
So many on this thread confuse how they would like to see things with reality. Only two years ago, it was a sin to criticise Martinez now, the same applies to Saint Koeman.
Should we not await some early results before hailing the second coming? Dare to suggest that all the dreams may not come true and you're a pantomime villain.
Look out, he's behind you!
76 Posted 26/07/2017 at 13:42:58
He's not behind you he's in your head.
77 Posted 26/07/2017 at 14:05:44
We needed midfielders because the ones Koeman inherited were getting old, not good enough or consistent enough. I would happily see the back of Barkley, Besic, McCarthy and Mirallas. I'd like Barry to stay on a bit longer and end up on the coaching staff.
Gana, Schneiderlin and I suspect, Klaassen, have improved our midfield. As will Sigurdsson when we get him.
Needed a keeper and centre half done. Still need another striker. The window has four weeks left, so we'll see about that.
I'm glad we've done good business early, improving the squad. They've still got to do it on the pitch, so my jury's out on that score.
Nowt wrong about being optimistic when the squad has improved. Doesn't mean you have to think everything is perfect.
78 Posted 26/07/2017 at 14:06:24
Where do you see the saint Koeman posts? Some people rate him, some people are 50/50 and a few don't like him. Hardly resounding like you suggest.
As for the Martinez criticism, he was getting plenty from half way through his second season and that only grew stronger.
Just because all your posts look for the negative in everything doesn't mean other people can't be optimistic. I swear, you still wouldn't be happy if we had a Barça and Madrid combined line up playing for us and won the league by 20 points.
Go on post something positive about Everton, Koeman or Walsh. Just for once. Surprise people.
79 Posted 26/07/2017 at 14:39:35
"No room on here for an alternative view, then?"
This is a typical sniffle of posters like yourself, Phil, who post provocative opinions as you offer in this thread, and when justifiably challenged on your view, you claim (in so many words) you are being 'shouted down', 'denied an opinion', 'being censored', 'democracy is dead.' Blah-blah-blah.
Not the case, Phil. People are commenting with incredulity at your 'alternative view', not wishing to suppress or deny it.
In this thread alone, based, remember, on nothing more than a red top rumour, you comment:
@ 1 "Tom Davies may get shipped out along with Barkley. Koeman seems obsessed with midfielders... Seems 'our man' is keen to 'de-Evertonise' Everton before he moves on. That's the new philosophy, I guess!"
@57 "We'll see how many Premier League matches the likes of Davies, Dowell and Kenny start this season! If it's the half-dozen I predict, it will be the lads themselves who will be agitating for a move. And rightly so!"
On reflection, I think respondents to your post have been extremely tolerant.
I know you're a betting man, Phil. How about having a punt on your claim at 57? Say, a monkey – 50 quid? You and me. The loser come the end of the season donates £50 to EitC, the Former Players Foundation, or an associated Everton charity.
The bet is a simple one: that Everton players under the age of 20 or 21 (you choose!) will play more than your predicted half-dozen games under Koeman this season.
Again, you choose: limit the bet to just the Premier League, or include all competitive games.
Before accepting the bet, be aware of the age of (some, not all) the players currently on Everton's books under 21.
Josh Bowler - 18
Morgan Feeney - 18
Beni Baningime - 18 (19 in September)
Matty Foulds - 19
Antonee Robinson - 19 (20 in August)
Callum Connolly - 19 (20 in September)
Liam Walsh - 19 (20 in September)
Anton Docker - 19 (20 in November)
Tom Davies - 19
Ademola Lookman - 19 (20 in October)
Kieran Dowell - 19 (20 in October)
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - 20
Mason Holgate - 20 (21 in October)
Jonjoe Kenny - 20
David Henen - 21
Put your money where your mouth is. Let's see you stand by your claim with real hard cash, Phil.
80 Posted 26/07/2017 at 15:10:35
I see lots of posts along the lines of "if its good enough for Koeman its good enough for me." That takes a degree of faith which has so far not been warranted.
I was a big fan of Moyes and would often sit opened mouthed at suggestions that he was holding us back. By the time this transfer window closes, Koeman will probably have spent around 200m more then Davey in about a 5th of the time... yet nobody dares to talk about us finishing 5th, a regular thing back then.
While Moyes introduced youngsters like Rooney, Rodwell, Anichebe, Vaughan when they were barely out of school, Koeman has only turned to youngsters when circumstances such as injuries or international tournaments have forced him to. It must be remembered that Koeman has been guilty of playing them out of position too. Holgate right back. Calvert-Lewin right wing. Davies in advanced midfielder. Is that the best way to develop kids?
When I look at where we are now and how much we have spent I wonder if those who criticized Moyes so heavily, now realize just what a monumental task we had in replacing him.
Koeman's bollocks are on the line and after reading Daniel Levy's thoughts about the "unsustainable" transfer window I wonder if we will ever see a spending spree like this again. I'm not suggesting we will do a Leeds or a Villa, but hope and pray he's got it right; this may be our one shot.
It's more an "in Koeman we hope" from me, I haven't seen much this far to make me want to trust him.
81 Posted 26/07/2017 at 16:02:11
82 Posted 26/07/2017 at 16:19:56
83 Posted 26/07/2017 at 16:20:56
In fact, I'm not even sure you do think they are shit, you seem to flip-flop about equally bemoaning their own shortcomings and the manager as responsible for them being 'destined for Brentford'. I am being utterly sincere when I tell you, Phil, that you are a prince amongst posters.
84 Posted 26/07/2017 at 16:54:37
It's a bet I shall be happy to lose and I hope the cheque is on it's way to you long before the leaves start to fall this autumn.
85 Posted 26/07/2017 at 17:05:38
86 Posted 26/07/2017 at 17:14:05
Let's firm up the bet and get the details clear, because @ 59 you said: "We'll see how many Premier League matches the likes of Davies, Dowell and Kenny start this season!"
When you NOW say as a condition of the bet: "no player under the age of 20 on 12th August, 2017, will start more than six Premier League matches whilst Koeman is Everton's manager in season 2017-18", are you including or excluding 20-year-olds?
I just want to be sure that you are now saying 19 years old maximum and younger only. That excludes 20-year-olds such as (for example, among others) Holgate, Calvert-Lewin, Kenny (who you previously listed) and Robinson.
I wouldn't want you quibbling when the time comes for you pay up to EitC.
87 Posted 26/07/2017 at 17:34:30
My missus who counts out my betting money each week wishes me to make it clear that only appearances for Everton are to count (just in case some of those who qualify get loaned out to the likes of Burnley and Huddersfield as may well happen!)
Have we got a deal?
88 Posted 26/07/2017 at 17:37:57
Good luck... but I don't think you're going to need it.
89 Posted 26/07/2017 at 18:09:26
At least he has a shot of playing each week with us, although our midfield is getting a little crowded. I like Davies, as we all do, and I believe he will be an important member of our squad this season.
Don't believe the media arseholes who are desperately trying to stir up a shit storm.
90 Posted 26/07/2017 at 18:09:50
Walling & Wood
ps: Phil - I like your missus' small print insertion! Accepted!
91 Posted 26/07/2017 at 19:48:13
Holgate was always going to make the breakthrough. I had seen him several times and having assessed our centre-backs (Funes Mori, Williams and the ageing Jags) I confidently predicted on these pages that he would make the breakthrough. Unfortunately, I didn't foresee Koeman's half-witted idea of opening the season with McCarthy operating as a right wingback. Nor did I realise Koeman would play the youngster as a right back in most of his games.
I distinctly remember Davies getting his chance because Besic was inured, McCarthy was struggling to make 90 mins, Schneiderlin was not deemed match fit, and Gana was away on international duty.
Here's what Koeman had to say just before Christmas in response to calls from knowledgeable Evertonians calling for Holgate and Davies to be introduced to a lifeless first team:
"I don't believe it's now because they are not ready, the pressure is more on than it was, it's the reason we need to wait when we make this kind of decisions. It's so easy to say he played fantastic, he needs to play in the first team. No they don't understand the level of the Premier League. These players need time."
How I loved watching young Tom make a complete mug of him when he was forced to play him. How I laughed at Koeman's arrogant "They don't understand" as Tom danced through Man City's defence.
Crediting Koeman with Davies's development and introduction is an insult to Rhino... not to mention those who were dismissed by Koeman for seeing what he clearly couldn't.
I suspect the joy and hope of a New Year and a trouncing of Man City have papered over the fact that we had been previously poor when we had better alternatives in our youngsters. It also appears to have given the Dutchman's followers the opportunity to re-write history.
92 Posted 26/07/2017 at 19:50:36
93 Posted 26/07/2017 at 20:00:46
To have a view and then change it based on what you have seen is good management. Try it.
94 Posted 26/07/2017 at 20:16:21
The aspirational glory seekers have mostly flopped – Jeffers being most obvious – and those sold against their better judgement have also done badly – Rodwell, Ball. Don't sell Davies,
I do share concerns about how many chances what seems to an exceptional crop will get under Koeman. Dowell and Kenny both fill gaps in the team and should really start tomorrow. Perhaps, I'll be surprised by the line-up.
95 Posted 26/07/2017 at 21:23:53
96 Posted 27/07/2017 at 02:25:52
When they showed themselves up as being cack, he opted for players like Davies and then actually stuck with them. But he can do no right in your eyes.
A cursory glance of the above shows far fewer people 'lauding' Koeman than pontificating whether or not he will buy tried and tested players. Believe me, you are the one with the agenda nobody else.
97 Posted 27/07/2017 at 05:14:34
You see, you are doing it again. He hadn't just arrived at the club, he had been here for six months!!! He was watching Cleverley and Davies every day for six months and he was still choosing Cleverley.
Rhino had told everyone these guys were good enough. The fans who were screaming for him to play knew he was good enough.
Lyndon Lloyd, after seeing Davies in action for just 90 minutes – "But it was Tom Davies who emerged as the star of the show and finished the game as many people's Man of the Match. Still 17, Davies exhibited a wonderful blend of touch, skill, steel, awareness and maturity that defied his tender years. More than justified his selection."
Koeman didn't become slow, ponderous deliberate and unimaginative because I have an agenda – it's the other way round, mate. Lyndon (and thousands of others) didn't need six months and a string of unavailable senior players to tell them that Davies would bring some desperately needed drive, skill and energy.
98 Posted 27/07/2017 at 09:22:57
Better late than never but who were these fans 'screaming' for Davies? Believe me, I was one of the first to call for Davies to be included instead of Cleverley (never any offence meant to poor Clevs) but that was on the basis of developing his potential. I cannot recall a single person on TW predicting Davies dominating on the pitch against Man City, unless you are referring to other fans you know.
Our calls (and there weren't that many of us, mostly people like Dave Abrahams who follow the U23s and have been seeing the potential for a while now) only really had that 90 mins of football you mention to base our judgment on. It was wishful thinking to develop a potential star rather than a considered opinion that Davies was first-team quality. He exceeded everybody's expectations including his biggest fans.
It may surprise you Darren but I am myself not entirely convinced by Koeman but you've got to give him credit when it is due. I still think writing things like a player exceeding expectations 'making a mug' of a manager says more about your agenda than Koeman. As Jim pointed out, Koeman gave him 18 league appearances, that is not a stick with which to beat the manager.
99 Posted 27/07/2017 at 10:43:46
I don't think anyone said he'd be a revelation like in the City game, but they did say he'd have an impact on the first team. I'm not criticising Koeman here, just attempting to clarify the facts based on my recollection of using TW over the past year.
100 Posted 27/07/2017 at 12:49:38
My point entirely is that he has surprised us all and the fact remains Koeman kept him in the team so I'm not sure why that is drawing flak.
Funny thing: I was probably as livid as Darren at that first 6 months and I get his point of view entirely but I just think lambasting the manager for doing the right thing (eventually) is stretching it a bit.
101 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:24:30
No longer are we discussing whether he could go but how Koeman is a mug for not selecting him earlier.
I can only see this as being a standard tale of a young player breaking into the first team. Most managers would go with experienced first team players as often as possible. Fans want to see the young local prospect come in and tear it up. Young players need to wait for their chance, be it an injury, suspension, players loss of form or absence such as Gana's to get into the team. Once they are there, it's up to them to make as much of the chance as possible.
This is exactly what Davies did. He took his chance well.
I seem to remember there being this sort of conversation about, Rooney, Rodwell, Vaughan, Big Vic and Barkley. Soon it will be about Dowell.
Did Koeman look like a mug? I am not sure I would go that far. Was he stubborn in his beliefs? He continued to play Davies even when other options became available. Seemed he learned his lesson on this one.
Davies did very well. But in one game late in the season, maybe against Arsenal, he got pulled after about 30 mins. He was having a mare and looked like a youth player in the senior set up. That's the risk Koeman would have had to assess. Young players can be fearless and put in amazing performances, but they are also prone to inconsistency. Davies waited until the end of the season to put in a stinker, and he will recover, but he is still young and there will be times when he sits out.
102 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:26:20
Maybe a man with a limited experience of English football, but also very aware of how competitive the Premier League can be, was just reluctant to put a kid as young as Tom into the first team in case it had a adverse effect?
If this was the case then Tom proved him wrong and also did a few more of the young kids the power of good in the managers eyes, because he also started playing Calvert-Lewin, and Lookman when he signed. I just hope Jonjoe Kenny gets his chance now.
103 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:28:06
Koeman was obviously being cautious with him as he's a kid and at that stage Koeman was still trying to get the best out of what senior players he had. I can't understand any criticism regarding Koeman's handling of Davies.
104 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:39:14
Phil - you complain that Everton is being "de-Evertonised" (I assume you mean changed radically for better or worse) yet back on 28 April 2016 you wrote a piece titled "A false dawn" essentially claiming, somewhat prematurely in my view, that nothing had changed since Moshiri acquired his interest. Which is it to be?
105 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:39:43
I agree with Darren's point re: Koeman being slow to recognise young talent / utilise lads playing for the U23s.
I don't understand why Koeman gets so much credit for bringing youth through when it's been abundantly obvious to most of us that have actually watched the U23s in the past 3 or 4 seasons that (for example) bringing Davies into the 1st team would provide much needed drive and energy. In my opinion there were better options than Davies but there is no doubt that Davies took his opportunity well.
Koeman does not have a reputation for blooding youth. Josh Sims (Southampton) ran us ragged last season, when quizzed Koeman reacted like he had never heard of him. Ward-Prowse, who had made good progress under Pochettino, effectively became a reserve / back-up under Koeman.
IMO Koeman needs to show more belief and faith in some of our younger talent eg, Kenny over Martina, Robinson at left-/centre-back in cup games, Lookman ahead of Mirallas... given the number of games we hope to play this season, and for this reason alone, we shouldn't sell Davies.
106 Posted 27/07/2017 at 13:43:53
Then in January he acted, and out went Niasse, Cleverley, Deulofeu, Gibson, Oviedo, McGeady, McAleny (the last two might have been earlier) plus a couple of younger players. He brought in Schneiderlin and Lookman and the net effect was creating the space that allowed him to play the younger players.
He had seen enough by then, but was fair enough to give them the opportunity to fail. Got a few bob in for them too, for the net spend supporters.
107 Posted 27/07/2017 at 14:08:13
'Balderdash' one of my favourite words. I used to work with a fella who when he disagreed with somebody's views or an article in the paper would shout out: "Balderdash, Poppycock and Froth!" I used to make things up to hear him rant those words.
He was a cracker, he hated Catholics, ethnic people and Evertonians, I was a Catholic Evertonian and look like I've got a permanent sunburn, he used to give me loads, but it was all a load of nonsense and banter and he got plenty back. I used to sing Everton songs and hymns to get him going.
My point is it, it was just like on ToffeeWeb we all give our opinions and mostly it is banter and we are putting our feelings in posts.
108 Posted 27/07/2017 at 14:14:59
Peter @100: I must say that I wasn't surprised at all by how good Davies performed in the 1st team, and I bet a lot of others who'd called for him to play (before Gana went to AFCON) weren't surprised either.
In fact, I distinctly recall many posts on TW expressing, before he was picked, disbelief that Koeman wasn't picking him in light of his performances when he had been picked in the past. Many posts said he would bring much needed energy (a term often used by Koeman) to the side, and that his skills (football brain, ball skills, etc.) were beyond his years.
I haven't criticised Koeman in my post @99, but I will say here that I have become less than impressed by him.
109 Posted 27/07/2017 at 15:09:49
Besides the Davies bunkum there is a report that we are interested in signing Collins who is almost 34 years old. Jagielka and Williams are both far better than that clod.
110 Posted 27/07/2017 at 15:20:57
I think Koeman has handled him perfectly. He gave him the first few months to train with the first team, he then gave him a few sub appearances, and then began starting him. Sounds sensible to me.
111 Posted 27/07/2017 at 15:36:57
You may be right that Koeman has handled him well (eventually), he certainly gave him a fair few games. I think he started Davies because Gana was away, and I seem to recall another defensive mid was injured. It might have been McCarthy.
So the argument that some folks are making is that Koeman started him when he did, more through chance (Gana away, plus an injury) than by good design.
112 Posted 27/07/2017 at 16:13:00
It looks like you and me both were calling for his inclusion then; for me, it was his performances in the reserves and his cameo against Norwich where he "more than justified his selection" as per Lyndon's report. I really didn't expect him to be that good that soon which if you consider he is still learning his trade bodes very well for the future indeed. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Plus I echo everything you say about the kid and more.
But as for Koeman not selecting him; I disagreed with it, I think in hindsight it was wrong but I do understand it. He inherited a squad in disarray with a few players not worthy of the shirt but I think it required more than a brief pre-season (as Jim points out) to evaluate them all fairly.
And Dave @107 Amen to that.
113 Posted 27/07/2017 at 16:18:11
I think it made sense for him to give them every chance before turning to youth. He came to Everton without any preparation and would have barely known the first team. He wouldn't have known anything about Davies or any other U23s and was understandably reluctant to throw them in.
114 Posted 27/07/2017 at 16:33:15
Whatever the background to Koeman selecting Davies, it turned out well. And okay, I was a bit surprised by his performance against Man City.
115 Posted 27/07/2017 at 16:42:29
Everton Football Club has signed a partnership agreement with leading UK brewer Molson Coors to provide Carling, the UK's number one beer, at Goodison Park from the start of the 2017-18 season.
116 Posted 28/07/2017 at 06:06:20
That piece I put up was written by Lyndon before Koeman had even arrived here. The quotes from Koeman where in direct response to "growing pressure from fans" to play a couple of Unsworth's charges.
We had been watching pedestrian dross. Evertonians had seen what Davies and had to offer, many as you say through watching them in Rhino's team.
You are of course right; Anybody who claims they expected Davies to make THAT much of an impact would be telling pokies. What we did know was he was better than players who were being selected ahead of him.
Koeman made a mug of himself. He dismissed knowledgeable fans legitimate calls with an arrogant "They don't understand". The fact that young Tom and Holgate forced him to keep selecting them, demonstrates to me that they understood a sight better than he did. We didn't need six months to see it.
117 Posted 28/07/2017 at 19:23:15
118 Posted 28/07/2017 at 19:34:55
But he hasn't learned by his previous mistakes, has he? the arrogant prick... we all know Kenny is better than Holgate and Martina, but our £6-million-a-year manager knows better... apparently.
Until next time – then he'll get all the plaudits for playing another youngster... 6 months too late!
119 Posted 29/07/2017 at 10:04:40
Don't be surprised if Koeman plays Kenny out of position when the penny does finally drop ñ he has done it with other younger players for most of their appearances.
It's astonishing some want to give Koeman some sort of credit, for repeatedly hanging youngsters out for criticism by playing them in positions that have thus far been alien to them.
No credit... absolutely no credit from me, his handling of Rhino's talented bunch has been about as amateurish as it gets.
120 Posted 29/07/2017 at 15:34:40
121 Posted 29/07/2017 at 15:49:57
Why not let him go to another premier league club to get games in this league and come back next year that much stronger? Maybe a club like Bournemouth.
122 Posted 30/07/2017 at 11:57:09
I've been told that Koeman has told Unsworth to stop making comments that the younger players like Dowell, Kenny etc are ready for the first team. Make of that what you will but I agree with your comments on Koeman's handling of the younger players.
123 Posted 30/07/2017 at 12:15:55
John (#122), we all get told lots of things and should take them all with a pinch of salt. It would help of course if Koeman took it upon himself to watch more U23 games so he can make up his own mind.
124 Posted 30/07/2017 at 12:23:54
125 Posted 30/07/2017 at 12:27:32
"I've been told that Koeman has told Unsworth to stop making comments that the younger players like Dowell, Kenny etc are ready for the first team. Make of that what you will but I agree with your comments on Koeman's handling of the younger players."
I'd make of that being the bullshit speculation that it is.
126 Posted 30/07/2017 at 12:34:32
We do not want the lad to play 50 games and burn out like Jack Wilshere and countless others. Also, having competition is good for Davies. One, when his form drops he can be taken out the team and there will be less focus on him; and two, to make him need to continue working hard and know he won't walk info the team.
Barkley would have benefitted much from having real competition.
With Europa League and Premier League games, Davies, and many other young lads, will get opportunities this season. But also, the Thursday - Sunday routine is tough; few players will play every game, especially younger ones.
127 Posted 30/07/2017 at 12:51:05
From my own point of view I think Jonjoe Kenny is good enough and ready to play in the first team now; he's not a boy anymore he's twenty and has been ready for months. He'll make mistakes, seasoned players make mistakes and continue to make mistakes.
Kenny will learn from his; he is a dedicated player who loves Everton and is desperate to play for the Blues. Once again he fully deserves the chance to do so.
128 Posted 30/07/2017 at 14:21:44
129 Posted 30/07/2017 at 15:51:44
I think I am right in saying we were the only team in the Premier League to have 3 teenagers on the pitch at the same time in the season just gone.
Onyekuru, 20 years of age
He's like the Pied Piper! 😁
130 Posted 30/07/2017 at 16:44:32
Come on, Dave, you can't do that to us! Let's hear it!
131 Posted 30/07/2017 at 16:55:57
As I say, I'm hoping the team will have changes when we play Stoke City, apart from the players being signed in the next couple of weeks. If not, I'll have my few pence worth then.
132 Posted 30/07/2017 at 17:21:00
But at least Moyes had a good reason, because Lescott was excelling at full-back, so maybe for that reason it was actually a good decision?
Kenny has got to be given a chance before he his sent out on loan, but I'm not sure this will happen though...
133 Posted 30/07/2017 at 17:31:37
An absolutely made up story about Chelsea going after Tom Davies turns into a questioning of our manager in less than 100 posts.
"Koeman is obsessed with bringing in midfielders"
No he isn't he has got rid of McGeady, Deulofeu, Gibson, Cleverly and worked out that Gareth Barry wasn't getting much younger and McCarthy was spending too much time on the treatment table and was more worried about Ireland than Everton.
"Koeman is De-Evertonising Everton"
Whatever that means but, if it means he is changing the "bottlers" mentality and improving the quality of the squad, count me in.
"Koeman doesn't develop youngsters"
Koeman has probably got the Premier League record for introducing and developing youngsters. All he demands is that they perform to standard consistently and that is why he wont let Tom Davies go anywhere but does not want to work with Ross anymore.
134 Posted 30/07/2017 at 17:46:11
Calvert-Lewin, who was signed when Unsworth (who had coached him as a youngster and followed him since) urged the board to sign him, was played repeatedly out of position... And Lookman was ditched unceremoniously after showing a few signs of naivety.
Using the Pied Piper as an analogy is hardly a ringing endorsement either. We all know where that story ends... The kids were led away and never seen again. Perhaps that was what Phil Walling had in mind???
Still, Barry is not yet drawing his pension; Jags has been brought back from the dead; Baines remains unchallenged for his shirt; and Williams is going to get a game every week – no matter how bad he gets; and there's always Rooney to call on if we are in need of fresh young legs.
No substitute for experience, eh?
135 Posted 30/07/2017 at 18:00:41
"I distinctly remember Davies getting his chance because Besic was injured, McCarthy was struggling to make 90 mins, Schneiderlin was not deemed match fit, and Gana was away on international duty."
"How I loved watching young Tom make a complete mug of (Koeman) when he was forced to play him."
A few revisions necessary to Darren's 'distinct' memory. Besic was of course injured pre-season and didn't feature at all last season. McCarthy's injuries were constant. Schneiderlin only arrived at the end of January.
Before Gueye went off to AFCON, Koeman had given Tom Davies game time, selecting both players in the same starting XI. On Gueye's return, Tom was selected ahead of him with Gueye on the bench; or, when both started, Gueye would oft times be subbed out whilst Tom remained on the pitch.
As for Darren's further comments @ 97:
"(Koeman) was watching Cleverley and Davies every day for six months and he was still choosing Cleverley."
This is a typical Darren distortion, making it appear that Cleverley was getting lots of game time in preference to Tom Davies.
In the 20 Premier League games Cleverley was available for until he left for Watford, he made 4 starts (subbed out in 2 out them), was an unused sub 9 times, unselected at all in 2 games, and was used from the bench 5 times – in the 92nd, 91st, 85th, 83rd and 65th minute. Hardly a ringing endorsement from the manager for a senior full England International, is it?
Tom Davies – who turned just 18 in June before the start of last season, remember – by contrast, in the same 20 games started twice (not subbed out in either of them), was an unused sub in 4, not selected in 10 (either side of his sub appearance in the 5-0 drubbing at Chelsea) whilst he was given game time with the U-23s, and given more game time from the sub's bench than Cleverley – joining the fray in the 66th, 66th, 68th and 78th minute.
Having been restored to the side in the Xmas/New Year fixture log-jam with sub appearances against Leicester and Hull, Tom started against Southampton and – other than being on the bench at home to Bournemouth – was selected in the starting XI for all the remaining 18 Premier League fixtures.
Given all the above, rather than label the manager as someone who cannot recognize talent and who is reluctant to give youth a chance, an alternative perfectly legitimate reading of how Koeman managed Tom Davies might be:
Koeman selected Davies as a sub in 5 of the first 7 Premier League games of the season, bringing him on against Sunderland away. Recognizing his ability but also appreciating he was a mere 18 years old, still learning his trade, Koeman didn't want to over-expose him too early, too young, and risk undermining his confidence and development.
He duly released Davies back to the U23s to get some game time for the next 10 Premier League fixtures, calling on him once at Chelsea where the manager wasn't afraid to expose him to the champions elect in a 5-0 drubbing.
He recalled Davies to the squad away to Leicester and subbed him in, gave him another sub appearance away to Hull, then picked him as a starter from the New Year onwards to the end of the season.
Conclusion? Koeman's management and timing with regard to Davies last season was spot on. Rather than burden Tom with too much expectancy by starting him from the off back in August, he involved him in the first team squad, gave him fleeting tastes of first team football from the bench, allowed him to hone his skills in the (successful) U23s so, when restored to the first XI match-day squad, he was hungry and ready to seize his chance.
Is this the definitive interpretation of events regarding Tom Davies and Koeman's management of him? Most certainly not. It is, evidently, an alternative reading to Darren Hind's less-favourable interpretation.
Other views between Darren's and my own are allowed and equally valid.
136 Posted 30/07/2017 at 18:02:53
137 Posted 31/07/2017 at 03:09:55
I am not sure what to make of Koeman yet, I think he made some mistakes early on with his team selections and formations, but he was getting to know the team. Did Everton improve under his stewardship? Too right they did, we had the biggest turn around of points outside of Chelsea, the champions! We did do awful in the cups, there is no denying that!
This idea that he won't blood youth is a bit confusing to me. Davies, Lookman, Holgate and Calvert-Lewin the last time I checked constituted youth. He has had more money than the previous Everton managers, but is playing more youth than them. So, how is he anti-youth?
On top of this, a number of really good players have been bought for the U23s, 6 million quid the last lad cost from Newcastle. Do people truly think that Koeman has zero say in this?
Basically, I think certain individuals have an agenda; for me the jury is still out. Have we progressed under his stewardship? Too right we have! As for the Jonjoe Kenny situation, we are 1 game into a long season, if he is good enough why won't he get picked? Is Koeman that stupid that he'd leave him in the Under-23s to satisfy some sort of anti-youth whim!!??
138 Posted 31/07/2017 at 06:11:25
Tony (#132), if you remember, Baines had a hamstring injury when he signed from Wigan which is why Moyes was cautious with him for the first season. That along with Lescott's good form kept Baines sidelinded until Lescott spit the dummy about playing at left back and was moved to his preferred centre-back role the following season.
139 Posted 31/07/2017 at 08:24:36
140 Posted 31/07/2017 at 09:24:12
Seamus Coleman was injured with a few months of the season to go and I think Jonjoe has played just a cameo at Swansea, no more than 20 minutes during which he did well, a couple of games preseason, but no trust in the lad last week, not even on the bench. Hopefully as you say there are many games to play, so maybe Kenny will be included very soon.
141 Posted 31/07/2017 at 09:37:14
For the record, I have seen him play 3 times for the U23's and also for England, so I do understand the calls. He certainly looks a better player than Martina. I'm just curious to know whether some of the others calling for his inclusion have ever seen him play?
142 Posted 31/07/2017 at 09:44:30
The only youngster I've ever seen playing for us who I would have staked my life on making the grade was Rooney but of course players like him come along once in a lifetime. We can only guess and hope!
143 Posted 01/08/2017 at 17:24:12
144 Posted 01/08/2017 at 18:27:17
I have watched about 10 games where Kenny has played and he does show excellently going forward but a bit of naivety defensively.
I would call it youthful exuberance.
I do believe Koeman rates him but just like Davies and Holgate wants to introduce them gradually.
145 Posted 16/08/2017 at 16:30:13
Allthough I don't know him personally, methinks, behind the mask, (his views being somewhat controversial on occasions), lies a man with a dark mischievous sense of humour, and is laughing all the way through this thread at the response he has provoked.
I've stopped listening to Alan Brazil on Talksport, as he is totally biased against Everton, and his sell buy date has well and truly gone. His corporate invites seem to be his main focus of comment and he has become a bore.
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