The 23-year-old spent the 2017-18 campaign at Stoke City and is unlikely to be in the reckoning for a starting role at Stamford Bridge this season.
Everton, who are still awaiting a decision from Barcelona and Yerry Mina, are in desperate need to bolster their back line before tomorrow's transfer deadline.
Whether Zouma is seen as an alternative to Mina and other reported targets like Marcos Rojo isn't clear but it's conceivable Marco Silva would like to bring in two centre-halves.
According to French reports, however, Manchester United themselves have lodged an inquiry about signing Zouma themselves.
Reader Comments (135)
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1 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:24:31
2 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:29:00
3 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:34:50
4 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:36:12
Like a few TW'ers have mentioned I am not sure I want Mina here at all, if he's holding out for something, he thinks is better, then eventually does end up coming, it's like a last resort sort of move.
Is he likely to give a 100% ?
The only thing with Zouma on loan, it may be like the Lukaku situation, he played well, and we wanted to buy him, we were at Chelsea's demands. Let's hope they have learnt from that and agree a price should the move be made permanent.
5 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:46:35
6 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:55:23
7 Posted 08/08/2018 at 01:04:35
8 Posted 08/08/2018 at 01:14:11
And if we do then what a much better transfer window this would be!
9 Posted 08/08/2018 at 01:14:16
10 Posted 08/08/2018 at 01:44:25
At a push, we already have a very expensive defender who can play the 'imposing' role.
11 Posted 08/08/2018 at 01:51:26
Tbh, I have mentioned this lads name as a potential option, but in reality, all I know of him is he was a beast in Football Manager when I last played it some years ago.
12 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:03:35
Sounds like Jags.
Whether we're going to sign Mina or not we need more centre-halves signed before end of business tomorrow. Jags is old as fuck and been the best of a bad bunch for a long time now, and Holgate is still not as imposing as we need him to be. Keane is there abouts but is as slow as a wet week. If we go into the season with those three as our only senior halves, then we're gonna leak goals every match.
13 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:05:28
14 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:06:53
15 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:18:24
16 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:35:31
I disagree about Holgate being better. He's 2 years younger, so I'd go as far as saying that if he keeps improving and gaining experience, that he could be as good as Zouma is now at 23, when Holagte reaches that age, but comparing them both now, Zouma is way ahead.
You only have to currently look at what they're both valued at:
Chelsea's own fans want him in their side now ahead of seasoned internationals as they think he's better than who's been playing for them. Stoke fans think that if it wasn't for him and Shaquiri, that they'd have been down alot earlier than what they were.
Zouma's got great pace, strength and movement. He's got fantastic work rate and stamina, and has excellent positioning and aerial prescence during set pieces.
17 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:38:57
Ive just been reading some of the Chelsea fan sites about the deal and many of them are gutted about him leaving. They are completely loaded up on CBs and with Sarri switching to a back 4, its inevitable that one or more are surplus to requirements.
Also, Shawcross said hes probably the 2nd best CB hes played with/against in the league last season after Alderweireld at Spurs.
18 Posted 08/08/2018 at 02:42:19
Forget about Mina, who is just stuffing us around, and overpriced MU castoffs like Rojo.
19 Posted 08/08/2018 at 03:11:01
I'm totally in the buy him now camp over loaning or as you mentioned at least a buy option after loan.
I'd be very surprised if Chelsea would let him go permanently. I don't think he's in their managers plans right now, but I think they regard him as one for the future, hence the 6 year contract they gave him last season before loaning him to Stoke.
At the moment though, I'd take him on a loan if that's all Chelsea are offering and still go after one other CB on a permanent deal before window shuts.
I'd still try a little cheeky bid for him to test them, say £15-20m. Personally I'd have him over Mina, he's already Premier league ready, so would only take time to gel to our setup, wheras Mina would also have to get used to the English game as well as our system.
20 Posted 08/08/2018 at 03:39:50
Over the next couple of seasons John Stones will become the best centre-half on the planet, yet Philistines on here couldn't see it; they hounded every mistake he made as an apprentice. In the end, he couldn't get out of here quick enough.... To think some actually called for yard dogs like Williams?
I want to see players who can actually play. . . Skillfully and intelligently. The thought of spending 30m on Yerry Mina makes me want to weep. If we bring this fella in too all hope of improved style of play goes out of the window.
How can we develop proper footballers like Holgate if we only give him partners who are better players when they haven't got the ball? Isn't that what we did with Stones?
What the fuck — They'll still clap.
21 Posted 08/08/2018 at 05:02:45
Personally Id prefer Zouma to Mina. I think Holgate has a bright future with us, we just need his partner.
22 Posted 08/08/2018 at 05:05:02
And if you really think the comments from the "Philistines" on TW were the reason he couldn't wait to get out of here, you have a bad case of ToffeeWeb Importance Delusion Syndrome. We just don't matter that much.
He left because he'd wanted out for over a year, because we'd been under siege by big-money offers over a year, and because £47 million said he could transfer to the title favorites and play CL footy against the best in the world. And because given the option of playing for Pep or playing for Koeman, he made the choice any rational player would.
As for a Zouma loan, I haven't seen enough of him to rate him as a player, but we sure as hell need somebody in there. And up to now I've seen no reason not to trust Brands' judgement.
23 Posted 08/08/2018 at 05:18:09
I dont think Darren was restricting it to ToffeeWeb. Complaints about Stones were heard often at Goodison and throughout social media, saying we couldnt afford his mistakes and we needed an “honest old fashioned defender”.
It disgusted me the same way all the complaints about Lukaku did. People were flooding these pages and others saying Lukaku was actually holding the team back, that everyone had to play to his strengths, and if we just removed him the team would flourish. Stones oozed quality and that confident swagger that top clubs embrace, yet we seem to rush to run out of town.
Im not saying thats the REASON he left. But it certainly didnt help the case to get another year out of him. And personally I have no doubt hell become one of the best defenders in the world. The guy is driven. Just because Pep put him in midfield during one of many meaningless preseason matches doesnt mean Pep is trying to move him out of defense.
24 Posted 08/08/2018 at 06:32:40
It would be nice to have at least one ball playing CB but isnt Holgate meant to be ‘good on the ball (not seen huge evidence of this so far myself)? Hopefully he might be Zoumas primary partner this season if this move happens.
25 Posted 08/08/2018 at 06:45:13
The Mina thing is looking so complicated right now that you cant see him coming and hell probably end up going to Lyon or United at the final hour.
Zouma Ive liked for a while and it should have been done last summer, along with Shaqiri he was Stokes standout player throughout the 17/18 season.
26 Posted 08/08/2018 at 06:45:55
Irrational emotion shown by some aside. I think people, including me, were just giving their honest opinion on Stones.
27 Posted 08/08/2018 at 07:09:52
If you look at the Barca stats it is worrying. Barcas defence last season was amazing. Mina played in 5 games, including an embarrassing 5-4 defeat where he was poor. When he played Barca leaked more goals, when he played over 1/4 of Barcas goals were conceded.
I would grant you he had an ok to good World Cup. So it could be the style, the players round him etc hat make a difference. It could be regular football which would help, he is still young. But hes not going to get quicker, £32 overpriced. £15-20 would be maybe worth a gamble.
28 Posted 08/08/2018 at 07:24:52
And Guardiola publicly told the press Monday that he is considering playing Stones as a holding mid. He is not currently first choice ahead of Kompany and Otamendi. And so it would seem Pep doesn't consider Stones to be on the verge of entering the world's best 11.
As to Stones exuding quality and swagger, yes he often does. What he does not display is consistency. He lost form for quite a while last season – his blunders against Burnley, Bristol and the RS spoke to that – and he froze on the Mandzukic winner at the World Cup.
I think he's a good player who will get even better with time and should have a solid England career as well. But among the best on the planet? No way. Never gonna happen.
29 Posted 08/08/2018 at 07:25:13
On a separate note, nobody wanted Stones to go but Stones. I dont see him being anywhere near in the future the best defender on the planet. You went on and on about him during the World Cup despite him being outshone by McGuire and making lots of mistakes in Sweden game and switching off against Croatia. Hes a fine footballer but people asserting they believe he will never be a top class defender like Adams, Terry and Ferdinand are not cretins. He has all the tools to be a top class defender and I really like him as a player and a person and hope he reaches his potential but I have doubts about this too.
30 Posted 08/08/2018 at 07:34:43
31 Posted 08/08/2018 at 07:53:44
32 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:02:39
(With Holgate) Gives us a potential pairing for years to come, and right now Jags could play alongside him until Mason gets fit.
As some have said well still need another.
Also reading Burnley might sell Heaton, take him for the bench too.
33 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:08:49
The days of Brian Clough bullying a player to sign with a "take it or leave it" ultimatum are long gone. There are so many variables to factor in to a deal to get one done, it is not as simple as "If Mina is messing about, tell him to do one!" shouts,
These parasitic agents own the game now. Unless Mina's agent is happy with the next deal, then forget it. Forget which club is next on the list, forget language barriers, culture, country of origin, style of football, families being allowed in, food, fellow countrymen at the club etc etc — the agent must line his own pockets first.
Cut Mina some slack, guys. I mean, what type of big decisions were you making at 23 years old? Which boozer to go on Friday night? Or what colour XR3i should you buy?
If both Zouma and Mina come on board we are doing well as both are an upgrade on what we have now.
34 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:14:32
35 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:17:04
With a gaping hole in defence, it doesn't matter who you transfer in for other positions. The whole attitude and confidence of the team is constantly under threat with such an obvious gaping hole.
36 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:19:06
37 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:25:58
Silva asked for 6 and will have got his wish.
Brands is full of surprises, so I wouldn't be surprised if a player like Nzonzi also comes through the door.
I'm feeling confident that this business will all get done.
I don't believe the Mina hold up has been down to the player. I reckon he would have been announced as a double deal with Digne if Barcelona hadn't taken Utd's supposed interest seriously. I think they have been hoping Utd would pay more or, as has been reported, accept him as part of a deal for Pogba.
When Barcelona finally accept that Utd were using Mina in an attempt to force Levy to reduce his valuation of Alderweireld, our bid will be accepted and the deal finalised.
My concern about a loan deal is that Silva will spend so much effort developing Zouma and improving him, only to see him reap the benefits back at Chelsea. Hopefully there'll be an option to buy.
38 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:28:20
39 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:38:38
I can't imagine him playing U23 after a solid season out on loan. I think he needs first team action in order to progress. Another loan perhaps?
40 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:39:56
41 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:49:03
I agree with you, he's looked solid in pre-season.
Championship clubs have until the end of the month to secure loan deals though, so I'd expect him to go after the transfer window shuts for us.
I assume he is currently fifth choice at CB behind Holgate, Keane, Jagielka and Pennington (until a signing comes in), so we could be waiting until one is in before letting him go.
42 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:54:43
43 Posted 08/08/2018 at 08:59:10
44 Posted 08/08/2018 at 09:25:12
45 Posted 08/08/2018 at 09:27:37
46 Posted 08/08/2018 at 09:28:59
47 Posted 08/08/2018 at 09:44:56
And I'm not sure why anybody raised Stones' name again - he's long gone. Stones does seem to exude the air of a quality player. But as with air, too often there's little substance. He switches off more than somebody with OCD worried there'll be a fire from the electrics.
48 Posted 08/08/2018 at 10:09:20
I'd happily keep Connolly here, but I think a loan for the season (with an option to bring him back in January) would work well for all concerned.
The same with young Joe Williams and, if we get Drinkwater or someone else, Tom Davies.
49 Posted 08/08/2018 at 10:16:52
Let me make it clearer. when I say "Here". I mean this club. Evertonia.
I mean the Park End panic merchants. The Gwladys street gripers. The Main Stand moaners. The Bullens Road basher's, The County Road critics and yes the TW tripe "twat it clear" brigade.
For decades this club has prided itself on the quality of its football. We were the culture club, the School of science. We loved our players to play . . but something happened along the way.
I don't know if its the fact that many fans see top seven as the be all and end all these days. I don't know if its because the relegation battles in the 90's left scars deep enough to change the culture of the club, but things have definitely taken a turn for the worse.
People have become terrified of risk. They are mean to our kids as they try to learn their trade. Too quick to dismiss them as "not good enough". We have fans who would rather support a series of Gobshite managers serving up Zombie anti football on a weekly basis than take a chance on a youth team coach who has shown huge promise by winning our only trophy for years. .
Somebody - preferably somebody who loves the beautiful game - needs to explain to me how we can drive people like John Stones away and hail the arrival of cart horses like Ashley Williams in the space of a few weeks.
I have nothing against Mina or Zouma, both may prove to be fine stoppers. . .I just want something different from watching the shite we have become indoctrinated to.
Pep isn't the first to say Stones could play in midfield, such is his talent, people have been saying it since he was a boy. I watched him on Sunday. He was a colossus, no longer the cocky bean pole of a kid the Philistines we so quick to condemn. He was assured and confident. . . which is all the more remarkable given the very difficult operation he underwent recently
50 Posted 08/08/2018 at 10:43:44
How is pissing around unnecessarily with the ball and giving away cheap goals a positive thing? Stones only excelled at turning defence into a heart attack while he was here.
51 Posted 08/08/2018 at 10:46:02
Mina wont commit to us now, makes me think he wont fully commit to us if we do end up signing him.
When things get tough he will start thinking oh no , I made a mistake, I want out . Rather than knuckling down, rolling up the sleeves and fighting harder.
Time to completely pull the plug on Mina and get Zouma in immediately with an option to buy.
52 Posted 08/08/2018 at 10:59:37
I think there's a huge generational gap though. For myself, I grew up going to the game in the glory days. My first season I ended up going to see us beat Watford in the cup aged 5. Fast forward 5 years and I had been to Wembley nine times, and you all know what I had seen us win. But in 1989 I was only 10. too young to understand and appreciate it all.
Instead, my Everton is one of a club in decline. Getting mercilessly picked on as one of the few Evertonians in my class. And watching the number of Evertonians in my school dwindle as the number of Man Utd fans rose.
There's a different attitude between the older Evertonians who watched the glory days of Catterick and Kendall, and then the Evertonians who watched the glory days of the 80s, and even between my generation who watched the decline with the next generation who grew up in the post relegation scrap era under Moyes and the last few guys.
It's surely harder for the young lads to have that Nil Satis Nisi Optimum attitude. How can only the best be good enough? The best they saw is either 4th under Moyes (playing dreadful football) or 5th under Martinez.
I think we have different standards and different expectations because of that generational gap.
53 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:10:03
And Grant-re Stones I can only completely disagree. But its all about opinions-even the ones that drive me nuts !
54 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:11:38
Everyone is looking for a ball playing defender. He's the best
English centre back around and he's still young. He's quick enough, he's tall enough, he's now strong enough.
He'll make mistakes, but he'll also be a key part of teams that win everything. He'll probably do that for another decade.
While we'll have a series of lumps belting it into the stands to rapturous applause.
55 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:15:46
For me, I seize on each chance of improvement. Then I am regularly disappointed and unable to refer back to my previous postings warning of need for caution. That is my nature and, apart from in the Blue world, such optimism has served me well strangely.
I can doubt or question every move we make, every appointment, every purchase but it gets me absolutely nowhere.
Just enables me to say "told ya so" but there are plenty to do that and to that with justification. Just about the nature of individuals. None better or worse.
I am 58 so have seen glory and bad times. Mostly mediocre times.
But all through every pre-season I am excited and my reaction to moves we make is always ruled by heart rather than head.
As have said before, we all share same dream.
PS Best wishes in your difficult time.
56 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:18:23
When he played for us, his decision making was at times poor. Even reckless. There's nothing clever about giving away goals.
I'm lucky, I was young but I saw the Catterick years. And I was old enough to enjoy the Kendall years. But I don't have some rose tinted view of those days - both sides had players who knew when to give it Row Z if needs be.
It's not an either/or situation. You can have a wonderful ball-playing side but still occasionally boot the ball out of play.
57 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:27:22
58 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:33:54
59 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:36:05
Chelsea fans love Zouma - so lets be having it.
60 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:57:19
I think if every defender in the world were put up for sale right now. Stones would already be right up there with the most coveted.
When Mourinho and Guardiola were offering what seemed like ridiculous fortunes for his signature, they knew they were investing for the future . .they could see the mistakes of youth, They're not blind, but they could also recognize the brilliance . .that's why they are two of the most successful managers ever.
John Stones is now out of our financial league, So we can forget all about him.
The point I was making is that we have too many experts who are happy to applaud agricultural defending by journeymen who will never improve. And its not just in defense they applaud mediocrity. Those knocking DCL, Davies, Kenny and Holgate within earshot have no clue of the damage they do to a kids development. They will tolerate and applaud others brought in, simply because they like that they have exotic sounding foreign names. . . Doesn't seem to matter how shite they are.
Doesn't matter how old you are mate. I know many people of your age with a decent understanding of the game (you for a start). Its not the young ones I worry about, its the poor judges, the philistines and the bleedin idiots who concern me
61 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:58:35
We have probably had loads of players over the years who fit that description.
Hooefully, we can reverse the trend soon.
62 Posted 08/08/2018 at 11:59:00
Regarding Zouma, in his first season at Chelsea, I believe he was voted player of the season. That can only have been due to consistent performances.
Michael Lynch, I am totally in agreement with you regarding Stek, and to think they extended his contract, knowing they were bringing Jaoao Virginia in (presumably) beggars belief.
If we are to have a decent Cup run this season, it fills me with dread should they rest Pickford (as is what usually happens) and play him instead, his positioning is like a rookie and suicidal.
63 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:21:35
64 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:31:54
So someone like Feeney is the case in point. He is tall despite his age. He will have the build and physique required to play centre back. He also has the basic skills. So, there's our centre half for the next 10-15 years. All that stands between him and fulfilling that destiny is experience. So he needs that pathway to the side, so he can learn and develop his game. I don't agree with spending big money on central defenders, not unless they have exceptional skills like John Stones, or they are 6'5" like Van Dyk and have his exceptional skillset.
I'm not saying we shouldn't buy a centre half for the new season, we surely should. A 6'5" monster like Mina would be worth it, as again he has skills that you just can't develop (like Van Dyk finding someone so big that his nimble enough, quick enough, and reads the game well is very difficult). Signing someone like Gibson is a big no-no for me. Pennington would be as good as Gibson if he had had the same opportunities and got the same experience as Gibson. Holgate and Feeney need a clear pathway to the first team and opportunities to play.
That goes for Davies. I can't believe some of the shit that has been written about Davies over the last 6-9 months. Rewind 12 months ago and everyone seemed to hate Barkley and Davies was held up as a kind of anti-Barkley. Now, Davies is the target of the boo boys. This is a lad who was up for a prestigious award as the best player under 21 in Europe. He was on a shortlist of 50 or so. This kid can do the lot. He needs time to develop and get opportunities and he needs to do so without worrying about the boo boys. If he was breaking into the side now, and he's still only 20, we'd all be raving about him. It's because of how big an impact that he made that some seem to think he has to go on some stellar development path and be captain of England next year or so, and as he is not living up to those expectations, then he's suddenly not good enough. He is good enough. He will be a fantastic player. Just let him have time.
My father knew a player when he saw him. He didn't often come out with superlatives about the young lads. He loved Rooney. Even when he joined Man Utd he loved to watch him. He also rated Barkley, and he rated Tom Davies even higher. He thought he was going to be a stellar player and that we would struggle to keep hold of him. The lad is only 20. His form will be erratic. He has the skillset, he needs to rebuild his confidence, and YOU can help him do that by getting behind him and supporting him. He's one of us and we should never get on his back. You should never get on the back of any player who tries hard, all we can ask is their best and if that's not good enough, then the manager should choose not to play them. Davies is good enough, but he will struggle to break into the first XI once Bernard arrives, but that's ok. Silva will ensure that he is close to the team. Why? because he is young, he is cheap, and he can get better.
65 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:35:34
Keane has not yet convinced me and Holgate is not strong enough.
Jags has aged and Pennington didn't impress me on loan last season.
If that position (s) isn't properly sorted than it's going to be another also ran season.
66 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:43:29
The response to an error should be "never mind lad, give it another go". And I think with most of it us, it still is. As long as the player appears to be trying and learning.
With regards to Tom Davies in particular, he has been disappointing recently in my opinion - his progress seems to have stalled. Barkley was the same, and it seems he hasn't improved at Chelsea. Possibly simply a bad move for him - he should have gone to a mid-table club which would play him every week, then he might have kicked on. Who knows. I must admit, I don't think Davies is going to be a "stellar" footballer, I just don't think he has those sorts of talents. He could become a solid player for us, or for another PL team, and possibly a future captain because even at his tender age he's not shy of taking on responsibility.
The key is that we need to be developing the likes of Barkley and Davies, for the simple reason that we save ourselves the pain (financial and mental) of these transfer windows if we don't have to scrabble about desperately trying to fill gaps in the squad, throwing money at "possibles" as the clock ticks down.
67 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:45:03
68 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:45:13
Who's that then?
We, as a crowd, applaud good defending, ie "good" defending, it doesn't matter who does it, if it's "good"
Same as we, as a crowd, groan when someone pisses about with the ball cutting back inside for no reason and underselling a back pass", again, no matter who does it.
Granted you have the "never happy" punters who would piss and moan if we won 7-0 because their strikers had 2 shots on target, but if there were grunts and groans aimed at Stones by the majority of the crowd, it would have been for a good reason.
Furthermore the only reason Stones left was because he saw pound signs and wanted to play against the elite, which every players wants.
It had absolutely nothing to do with reactions from the crowd when he pissed about with the ball on occasion.
69 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:45:58
On the Mina thread, Jason Broome posted some impressive stats for Mina. Chelsea still sent him away and will allegedly loan him to us this season, why?
One other scenario is that Zouma has an amazing season and is our player of the year. Have we improved a Chelsea asset whose value has shot up or will we have agreed a price now. I am probably totally wrong (as usual) but didn't Lukaku's price increase after a good season with us.
70 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:50:20
71 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:54:01
The defenders we have bought and are now looking at won't lose it in dangerous positions very often, but they'll give it back to the opposition far more than Stones did.
To me, it always came down to whether we wanted the ball or whether we were just happy for it not to be in our box for a bit. The latter seems a very limited ambition.
72 Posted 08/08/2018 at 12:57:50
Just watch the criticism some of our young players with potential get while calling for someone like Besic to get a game.
73 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:02:11
Maybe a swap for Werner
74 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:02:51
To me the softness we see in a number of them, oft commented on by TW'ers, seems embedded in FF and that won't be the fault of the young 'uns. I just hope that with several of the "major" players having recently been told to train on their own the penny has well and truly dropped throughout the entire place that "nicely-nicely" no longer cuts it.
75 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:28:56
I really like Tom Davies but i'm beginning to worry. He's been given a fair amount of game time over the last few years but he does not seem to have progressed. Steve @62, you say that he will be a fantastic player and I really hope you're right but surely we can't be sure. Ocassionally there is a truly special talent like a certain Mr. Rooney but I don't class Davies in that category. You say 'the kid can do the lot' but can he? He's not quick, not that strong. He doesn't make alot of key passes or interceptions or tackles. He's got great energy and passion which I love but currently the end product is mediocre and how can we (or Marco Silva) be sure that will change unless he shows us?
I'm not saying that we should knock the kids, obviously that helps no-one, but equally they have to be able to serve the team, they have to show that they are using the experiences given to them to improve; not necessarily game by game but over the course of a season or two. That did not seem to be the case with Barkley (though he was still one our best players) and i'm concerned that it does not seem to be the case with Davies so far. I hope that him and Dowell and DCL and Kenny etc will get opportunities this season and will show they are capable of stepping up but 'potential' in itself means very little unless it begins to be realised.
76 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:33:54
77 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:35:53
78 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:36:34
79 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:41:45
For me, our young players get a pass. I don't think Davies, Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, Holgate, or Kenny (or any others) carry any of the can for last season. The culture under Koeman/Unsworth/Allardyce was all over the place, and our senior players showed very little ability to rise above it all and give the club some on-pitch, in-game security by leading from the front. Instead they hid; Morgan Schneiderlin being the best (worst) example. The young players were on a hiding to nothing.
And on the side-pot debate about John Stones; after a decent World Cup he's certainly in a ten-strong group of the best centre-halves in the world already. I expect him to be in that group for the next ten years; I don't think there is a chairman in the world who wouldn't be interested in him playing for their club.
As for Zouma... I'm on the fence. Great pace, great strength, but he's a ball-watcher extraordinaire - and players will run in behind him at will.
80 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:57:13
People are entitled to their opinion regarding Stones. Yes, he might look cultured at times but by god has that lad got a mistake in him. As someone earlier pointed out, what was he doing when Manduzik scored the winner in the semi-final? He'd switched off.
I can remember Labone and Mountfield from our title-winning days may not have been as classy as Stones but they could both defend and defend well and Degsy wasn't bad at the other end of the park.
I'll tell you this: Labby or Degsy wouldn't have cried off in a derby at the hellhole with stomach cramps either because they knew what the consequences would have been from the rest of the players.
He's another like Lukaku – started believing their own press and the pair of them, in my opinion, are vastly overrated He's gone and good riddance We are bigger than one man. Always will be.
81 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:57:38
82 Posted 08/08/2018 at 13:59:31
Zouma on loan would be a nice addition alongside Mina. There seems to be a lot of towering athletic centre halfs in France and Germany, no more wasting time on Mina If its not done by tea time.
I am so desperate not only for a Distin or Lescott, but a partnership of Lescott/Distin and Jags. We haven't replaced Distin or Pienaar, now with richarlison, hopefully the distin replacement is soon to arrive.
83 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:00:50
The guy had a mistake in him every game. Every game.
And I dont see that hes much better now why did we go out of the World Cup? Because John Stones fell asleep again and didnt track his man. Simple knock down header and a tap in
We need defenders who can defend. First and foremost
84 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:02:43
The 23-year-old World Cup star has also agreed personal terms on a contract but he is yet to put pen to paper.
Castles understands Everton are concerned that Manchester United or Lyon could still swoop to poach the player from under their nose.
“Everton, I'm told, have agreed a fee with Barcelona,” Castles told the Transfer Window podcast.
“And they've also agreed salary terms with Mina - but they don't have the signature on the contract.
“From what I hearing from the Everton end, they are concerned they won't get the player in the end because of Manchester United's interest, because of Lyon's interest.
“It seems Mina may prefer to go to Lyon over Everton and would definitely prefer to go to Manchester United over Everton.”
85 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:02:56
86 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:11:28
The fact that we couldn't keep either, and squandered their transfer fees reflect the work ahead to take our once mighty club back into competiting rather than making up the numbers.
The task is huge.
87 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:19:25
88 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:20:01
Is he actually available?
89 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:21:35
For a CB his heading is not that strong and he consistently has a mistake in him.
World class - never.
Kompany is nearing Jags status and is still keeping him out of the side.
John Terry was a much better CB even in the twilight of his career.
And for the record he never ever got flack from the crowd until he was pushing like crazy for a move.
90 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:24:38
We lost both to vastly wealthier clubs in a better position who bid decent money. At the time Stones went it was a big fee, not now maybe but at the time it was a fair amount for a player who didnt play their whole season. Lukaku probably went a bit under market rate, but again transfer rates wentvsilly after.
Had they gone to spurs or Villarreal I would say why, but I can understand why they left for the clubs they went to
91 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:30:16
Maybe there is a player there, after all who can forget the Messi esque goal against City, but that was some time ago now and he's done nothing since.
92 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:30:58
Please, please don't post comments like that, I beg. I almost choked on my lunch time muffin laughing after reading that!
My abiding memory of Stones is cowardly ducking out of that cup game at half time forcing Martinez to make an excuse of having the shits, which everyone knew was bollocks. He's certainly got one world title he can lay claim to, the most overrated CB on the planet! £47m, ta very much, please come again.
93 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:33:15
For the record, that decisive goal in the World Cup semi was not actually John Stones' fault. It was Harry Maguire who was marking Mandzukic. Walker had half-cleared the ball (up into the air) before Perisic won his header against an exhausted Trippier - and Mandzukic ran off Maguire, down the side of Stones, and the slow-off-his-line Pickford was unable to do enough to stop the shot. I know the pundits all blamed Stones, but unfairly (I believe).
94 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:40:50
What does he offer?
Speed - some say he's slow, he's quick for a box-to-box player, but not quick compared to a winger.
Stamina - dunno if you check the stats but he's often run the furthest in every game, he has a great engine.
Tackling - he's just as good as Gueye at tackling.
Intercepting - he's far short of Gueye, but he's still learning to read the game, but with his speed and anticipation there are signs this will be a real strength of his game
Passing - he lacks accuracy over longer distances, but he hits good short and medium passes and they are always forwards, no side passing with Tom. Because he takes chances, a lot don't come off, but he does make things happen, he will get better at this.
Dribbling - he's quick with the ball and can beat a man - Man City goal might be his finest hour but he does have these skills in his locker
Determination - he lacked strength, but he's put a bit of muscle on (someone said he looked fat, far from it, it's muscle) and hopefully this will help him compete with players much older than him
Energy - Davies never stops running, he doesn't get his head down, he keeps going, and so he can raise the tempo, particularly with his forward passing
Plays best on the front foot - maybe he struggled so much because his last two managers don't play on the front foot, the latter was the complete opposite. Silva is very much a front foot manager and Davies should thrive under him.
Sure he has flaws, but most of them are down to age. He will only get better. If he can begin to really read the game then he can dominate the midfield and become the midfield general we need.
I really, really love the kid. I just hope he's given the chance, gets the luck with injuries and develops like I expect.
95 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:43:17
I understand their reasons for going, but we need huge progression to give that ilk a reason to stay financially and professionally.
96 Posted 08/08/2018 at 14:51:10
I've spend only five days of my life in Liverpool, so I can't comment on the "Stones out" sentiment in the stands and the pubs. I can only say that most of the folks on TW who wanted him gone were simply pissed off that he'd handed in a transfer request at age 21, a year after signing a six-year contract, and so obviously wanted to leave. Sure, there were a few idiots who thought he'd never be any good, but there's no reason to rail about them two years on.
Me, I just thought that £47.5 million was a hell of a good deal, that if City wanted to make him the second-most expensive CB in the history of the game, we had done great business. (That Koeman/Walsh made such poor use of the money is a separate story.)
I still think he's a very good player with an excellent career ahead of him. I also still think potential "best on the planet" is a wild overstatement. He will never be Pique or Koulibaly. I don't think he'll even be Alderweireld. Among the top younger CBs, Marquinhos and Davinson Sanchez and Rüdiger are all significantly superior to Stones in my opinion.
97 Posted 08/08/2018 at 15:07:55
Yes on speed, stamina, determination, energy and passing. Emphatic no on tackling as well as Gueye, at least not yet -- he has the commitment but not the anticipation or the technique, thus all the silly fouls. And he's definitely not a good dribbler -- drives hard but lacks the in-close touch skills, so he always seems to lose the ball at the end.
Like you, I think there's a good chance Silva turns him into a fine player, but it's hard to see him as a starter right now. I believe he will always be in a supporting role, never a midfield general.
98 Posted 08/08/2018 at 15:09:27
99 Posted 08/08/2018 at 15:13:51
Tom Davies has always been a decent tackler though. That was his main strength. He played in the Gueye role alongside Liam Walsh who has the more cultured passer of the two. Davies won so many plaudits for his ability to not only win the ball, but to immediately drive forwards with it and make the pass.
He lacks a bit of strength, but having only recently turned 20, and playing in the centre of midfield, where the players tend to be older, stronger, and heavier, then of course he's going to be a bit lightweight and find it harder to tackle.
100 Posted 08/08/2018 at 15:20:26
I am one of the Philistines apparantly who citicized Stones. You may recall I indicated that he ball watches too much, loses contact with his co-defenders, is soft on defending on balls in the air as he doesn't move into the challenge, and worse, appears to duck contact. I still see all of those weaknesses in him.
You may also recall that I said he would be, or should be, tried at the defensive midfield position due to his obvious ball skills and ability to pass.
I stand by my words then and now. A great center-half he will never be. Putting him in amonst world class defenders masks his weaknesses but doesn't make him a better player. Putting him in with Maguire and Walker only highlighted the difference between Stones and a true world class center-half. His best plays were those that demonstrated the skills needed for a defensive mid, challenges to balls on the ground, sliding tackles, intercepting passes, and more than decent foot skills.
101 Posted 08/08/2018 at 15:43:27
I havent give up on him at all, time is on his side. With hard work and commitment he can still make it to the top. Competition for places this season will make it tougher to get starts . Its up to him to take the opportunities that present themselves and make himself an integral part of the first team on merit.
102 Posted 08/08/2018 at 16:07:13
Coleman - Mina - Zouma - Baines/Digne
Sigurdsson - Bernard
Walcott - Tosun - Richarlison
Stek, Holgate, Baines/Digne, Schneiderlain, Lookman, Niasse, DCL
That would be an AMAZING window.
103 Posted 08/08/2018 at 16:53:32
Not seen much of him, but I assume the type we want/need?
104 Posted 08/08/2018 at 19:17:39
Its not about John Stones, He is just a perfect example of the point I was making. Evertonians were once an extremely knowledgeable crowd, but sometimes I feel I have turned up at the Britania stadium when I hear some the comments. "stop fucken about Lad. get it up the park".
Stones had his run-in with the Park end panic merchants long before he handed in a transfer request. He had a legion of admirers but there is a section of the Goodison crowd who wouldn't have his risk taking. These people will cheer Niasse running through a brick wall chasing dumb arsed lost cause, but they will slaughter DCL for not being able to give a top class performance when he has been stuck out on the wing
The exaggerated applause for sweat and perceived effort has to a large degree replaced the appreciation of kill and intelligence. Our youngsters are treated in a brutal manner. The zombie football which has so plagued this club for so long is merely a reflection of the ignorance in the stands. . ."Getfuckinridofitlad"
No wonder we cant attract managers who will send our team out to play with fire passion and skill. Imagine Jose or Pep reading the comments on this thread alone ? I wonder which comment they would find funniest ?
This club is at a crossroads; Do we want to continue to be Everton the greyest club in the premiership. ? A club who thinks finishing seventh will compensate for football so ugly it should come with an X certificate ? A club with fans hold no truck with risk taking little brats. . .A club whose fans think Martinez's brainless passion obsession was "entertaining" A club whose fans roar the approval at the muttering of a Neanderthal like Koeman when he "tells it like it is". . A club who fans panic and call for a man whose crimes against football had already been abhorred and rejected by fans of clubs who have no right to expect as much as us ?
This is one of the biggest seasons in our history as far as I'm concerned. We simply cant continue like we have been for the past few seasons, we cant allow Goodison to remain a soulless miserable shadow of its former self. we cant continue blame other people because we are always last on MOTD. We cant keep overpaying for players who have no more skill than half the people in the crowd.
I'm on my lassies here. I am absolutely desperate for this new management team to breath some life into the dying soul of EFC. I'm desperate to see an end to extraordinary prices being paid by clueless twats for exceptionally ordinary players.
105 Posted 08/08/2018 at 20:27:51
106 Posted 08/08/2018 at 20:36:30
107 Posted 08/08/2018 at 20:45:16
108 Posted 08/08/2018 at 21:23:41
I do think though, the modern players (well, most of them) realise that signing for the likes of Manure and especially Chelsea, that they can spend most of their time on the bench or in the reserves.
Hopefully Zouma realises that more than most, he went from Player of the Season, 2014-15, to reserves, to loan at Stoke.
109 Posted 08/08/2018 at 21:40:33
110 Posted 08/08/2018 at 21:43:47
I don't think it will be Zouma's decision.
He is on a 6 year conttact at Chelsea and Utd apparently want a permanent deal but we want a loan deal which may suit Chelsea more(I hope).
111 Posted 08/08/2018 at 21:50:45
112 Posted 08/08/2018 at 22:06:44
113 Posted 08/08/2018 at 22:27:29
114 Posted 08/08/2018 at 22:46:14
Jose is anti-football and Pep doesn't send Stones out to do anything... in fact, he doesn't send him out!
115 Posted 08/08/2018 at 22:49:58
116 Posted 08/08/2018 at 23:09:54
117 Posted 08/08/2018 at 23:26:06
The lad had a really poor second half to last season, but well, so did everyone. His passing was erratic and the games passed him by, but he also had no help from his experienced partners in Schneiderlin and Rooney. Also Allardyce is not one to hone a young lad's technical skills. It was his second season, and like many before him, he had a second season 'crash'.
But there is a qualiyy player there. Agression, Drive, forward-thinking are what sums him up, he could be a real 'Demeble-style' midfielder if he develops his distribution and first-touch. Davies and Bernard with a defensive midfielder could be exciting.
Davies should and will start the season as a sub, but hope and think he can really push Sigurdsson for a first team place.
118 Posted 08/08/2018 at 23:41:49
Im genuinely not sure what his greatest assets are. Hes an all rounded player I guess with great energy. His vision is good I think and perhaps his passing could be great. I reckon at best hes a Jordan Henderson type, which (unfortunately) I mean as a compliment.
119 Posted 08/08/2018 at 00:15:20
In his plus column: he has cool hair and wears his socks low. He tries hard.
He has plenty of time to develop. I just think it should be elsewhere, preferably in the Championship.
I am fully supportive of the youngsters but won't kid myself into believing that they're better than they actually are simply because they're local lads. Davies is not yet good enough and a loan would do him good.
We can't afford to carry anyone in the hope they will one day be good enough. Top 6 teams don't do that. We need to loan the youngsters until they are physically and mentally ready. Most of them will never be good enough. I only believe that Holgate will make it with us out of the current batch.
I don't think Davies will get so much game time this season. Some kids are great in the youth leagues and look destined for stardom, but it doesn't always transfer to senior football.
120 Posted 09/08/2018 at 05:26:22
For me he was the best defender in the world cup. His dominance of Lukaku was so total there had to be surgery involved to remove him from his arse pocket.
I look at comments claiming he had world class players around him and wonder what some people were watching. That's like coming out of a concert and saying the orchestra made the guy with the stick look good.
121 Posted 09/08/2018 at 06:10:25
Regards Stones, hes a good player . He is not a great defender. He is technically gifted, and he is a good footballer, can pass, and bring a ball out of defence, but the actual nuts and bolts parts of his defensive duties such as tackling, physicality, judgement of danger, blocking shots, reacting quickly and sometimes just throwing himself in the way of stuff, those are the parts he needs to work on, and gain consistency with. The lad can play, no doubt . But think back to the game vs Spurs, double cruyff turn in your own box and then calm down gestures to the crowd, nah mate the Barnsley Beckenbaur needed then and still needs now to learn when to and when not to be showboating . Basics first and build on that . Having said that, there was no need for the vitriol he received, which at one point culminated in his being given dogs abuse in a motorway service station, until he was led away in tears. He didnt deserve it, cruyff turns or not. Id still have him back though . If he promised to take a few Imodium before a game.
122 Posted 09/08/2018 at 06:26:25
I would say he was certainly the best defender not named Granqvist, Gimenez, Varane, Alderweireld, Godin, Hernandez, Meunier, Fernandes... or Yerry Mina.
123 Posted 09/08/2018 at 06:46:15
He wasn't even the best defender in the England team.
124 Posted 09/08/2018 at 07:35:00
On the broader points Darren Hind and Steve Ferns make, they are absolutely spot on. When did the school of science come to prefer journeymen who put in a shift over talent, particularly young talent? The abuse that Davies, Holgate, Lookman etc when they make a mistake or get caught in possession is awful. Yet the Everton crowd love battlers like Strac, Beckford and Besic just because they get a sweat on. I know talent and hard work go hand in hand, but being talented and trying things is better than risking nothing and playing it safe. Otherwise, we'd have a team of Ganas and Schneiderlins whoch is where Koeman and Lardiola were taking us.
125 Posted 09/08/2018 at 08:13:53
If you've been fed gruel and stale crusts for years
you don't know what caviar is and it tastes terrible.
126 Posted 09/08/2018 at 08:48:13
127 Posted 09/08/2018 at 09:02:13
These little exchanges between you and I about players are rapidly becoming part of my pre season ritual. I remember you took exception to me saying Gana and Schniederlin go to ground to often and were not good enough to propel us into the top six.
Last year I said we had not signed the right players and those we had signed were not good enough. You responded by telling me I was responsible for the death of Tinkerbell because I wouldn't clap - wonderful stuff.
I like that you are not scared to nail your colours and have the balls to say what you think. So often people disagree vehemently with a point on here without offering the slightest semblance of a counter argument.
Not you fella.
128 Posted 09/08/2018 at 09:28:09
Seriously though, when praising Mike, you could be talking about yourself there Darren, and when you talk about Stones, being a great defender, it can obviously open you up for loads of ridicule, off people who have had little run ins with you in the past and maybe want to try and score cheap points?
John G, is always at it with you, its funny sometimes, sometimes it makes me smile, and I would love to sit next to you two in a boozer, because I love it when cats and dogs start arguing.
I always say life is full of contradictions, and John G, just gave me one before by saying Stones, wasnt even Englands best defender during the recent World Cup. How I wonder? How can that be? Because if Stones wasnt Englands best defender, he was definitely Englands best player, but thats just my opinion of course?
129 Posted 09/08/2018 at 09:39:05
On the Stones debate, I was one of the Park End "panic merchants" who berated Stones for taking unnecessary risks with a game delicately balanced. However, I also appreciate that he is a fine footballer, a rare breed in the English game. It's possible to be both!
As for his overall defending skills, I think he still has somewhere to go yet. Ball watching, lack of concentration and questionable decision-making are all areas he can improve on. Possibly Guardiola thinks likewise on the evidence of Otamendi being regularly picked ahead of him?
Also, I disagree with your statement "the exaggerated applause for sweat and perceived effort has to a large degree replaced the appreciation of kill and intelligence. Our youngsters are treated in a brutal manner." Most fans would acknowledge that the likes of Niasse are not good enough but support him enthusiastically anyway - that's what we do! It doesn't mean we don't want him replaced by someone with silkier skills. And do local lads really get treated with more stick than the likes of Schneiderlin, Bolasie? They certainly feel it more, being local but is the abuse disproportionate? If anything, we cut the local lads more slack don't we?
130 Posted 09/08/2018 at 10:21:33
Im with Ray #129. I loved Stracq because he represented how I would be if playing for Everton - enthusiastic but appalling. There is no way I ever wanted him in our team, but I admired his effort. The same goes for Niasse, although he does at least have the ability to cause chaos.
The players I cant stand, and I get the feeling that most at Goodison agree, are those who have natural talent but dont apply it. Schneiderlin was a classic case last season.
We become frustrated because we want to see a team play with skill, pace and aggression, which is why some, like me, bang on too much about players like Ball, Kendall, Reid, Cahill (Terry White, theres a clue about my all-time Everton 11, and a further clue about why I want to be looking ahead at present, instead of backwards). We can but hope that we are starting a new, better era.
TW has had some very compassionate, thoughtful posts over the past few weeks, the debates have been just as well fought but there has been a more tolerant and understanding tone to them - the site has been better for it.
Up the Toffees.
131 Posted 09/08/2018 at 11:03:20
I've been wrong enough times to not care too much about who was right in a debate I had years ago. When Paul Tran said he had backed Lukaku to get 25 goals I said I would have given him double the odds if I was a bookie
You are right. there are certain hindsight merchants who wont offer alternatives, but will literally wait months to try to score a cheap point.
That's why I respect Mike and respond to him. In the unlikely event that he came back with an I-told-you-so. It would be because he had earned the right to and had actually told you so
132 Posted 09/08/2018 at 12:41:00
Stones is pleasing on the eye no doubt. A great centre back? Some distance from that I'm afraid.
133 Posted 09/08/2018 at 15:16:12
134 Posted 09/08/2018 at 16:42:30
Tony, I don't mind at all Darren telling me I'm wrong. We haven't agreed on anything substantive in years (except Bryan Oviedo), but we both have fun with the joust.
135 Posted 09/08/2018 at 21:22:49
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