Should we stay or should we go?

Perhaps we’re shopping in the bargain basement again - or at least appear to be - is that we’ve had to ringfence £30m for a stadium billed as free for EFC... Not that many were expecting us to get a new ground for nothing.

Lyndon Lloyd appears to have a disliking of Knowsley. I have lived in Knowsley all my life and if Knowsley is a shithole what is the area around Goodison? I would love to move to a stadium in Liverpool preferably in town on the banks of the Mersey, but this doesn?t seem possible now. If Kirkby is the only feasible chance of creating the new Goodison and bringing the club into the 21st century, so be it.

"As I see it, the club appear hell bent on moving us to Kirkby but who can blame them? Despite the lip service, Liverpool City Council don?t give a toss and have demonstrated that on several occasions in the past."

Kings Dock?

Not another veiled stay at GP article... Staying at GP is a non-issue, as GP is a write-off. Of couse EFC can buy all the old terraced houses around and build a super stadium - and at what cost? Then there is the poor infrastructure and image of the area too.

Going to Kirkby or staying in Liverpool is the prime issue, let?s keep it on track and stop wasting space on futility.

if Liverpool Council would give planning permission for use of the airspace it would be easy for a smart builder and architect to come up with a cantelver stand system to all four sides of the existing stadium (including the church). They could prefabricate it offsite and do a stand every close season. I have watched this happen at the MCG in Melbourne in recent years.

John, the "image of the area" and "poor infrastructure" doesn’t appear to have been an issue for the outfit across the park.

Goodison Park is the home of Everton Football Club. If we have to move it has to be to somewhere better - like the Kings Dock.

It would seem that any redevelopment of Goodison is seen as being not practical and that a move away to a stadium is the only solution. However I would strongly question whether the alternative of staying at Goodison has really been looked at in any real depth. Has the club really carried out a detailed study of the cost of redeveloping Goodison? Personally I doubt it.

I have been an Evertonian since my Dad first took me to Goodison, to see a match back in 1964 when I was seven. I recall with great fondness the Goodison of the 1960?s - when it was one of the best stadiums in the country. Indeed in the 1966 World Cup only Wembley staged more matches. So Goodison?s place in football history is World Wide and perhaps more if more people in power at the club had realised this Goodison would have been better looked after.

It?s worth remembering I think that Goodison in the 60?s ? probably it?s high point- was developed over a number of years. The stands looked similar with the criss cross pattern girders. However, they had been built at different times ? The old Goodison Road mainstand in 1909 I believe, the Park End at around the same time, Bullens Road in 1926 and Gwladys Street in 1938.

That prompts the question: Do we have to rebuild Goodison in 1 or 2 years? Why not look at the possibility of rebuilding over say 10 - 15 years. I feel we missed the chance of making a good start in 1994, when instead of making the Park Stand 2 tier the single tier option was chosen. We could have gone for a 2 tier stand of say 10 -12,000 capacity. That would have given us an increased capacity and been a good starting point to redevelop Goodison.

In our heart of hearts I am sure most Evertonians would love to stay at Goodison. I am not totally against moving - but lets at least really explore the option of staying before we dismiss it.I am not convinced that all the possibilities have been explored.Lets not forget that at one time Celtic were talking of moving but they stayed and developed Celtic Park. I know they had a lot of space in which to rebuild, but Newcastle United after at first planning to move also stayed and rebuilt their stadium - and St James Park is as "landlocked" as Goodison.

The best solution to a problem is not necessarily the first solution that is thought of. Le'ts have a proper debate - with ALL the options discussed and studied in detail.

"It would seem that any redevelopment of Goodison is seen as being not practical and that a move away to a stadium is the only solution.However I would strongly question whether the alternative of staying at Goodison has really been looked at in any real depth.Has the club really carried out a detailed study of the cost of redeveloping Goodison ? Personally I doubt it."

There have been counntles studies over the past 15 years. All say move and that is what they are doing....as I say, talking about staying is a non-issue.

The issue is the type and quality of stadium and where it is.

Time to move on......

"John, the "image of the area" and "poor infrastructure" doesn?t appear to have been an issue for the outfit across the park.

Goodison Park is the home of Everton Football Club. If we have to move it has to be to somewhere better - like the Kings Dock. "



What LFC do is their concern and many questioned the viability of staying put because of infrastructure.image, etc.

KIngs Dock is a no.no. and I am glad it collapsed. see:
http://www.saveliverpooldocks.co.uk The abortion being built there could have been on the land side of Queens Dock and Kings Dock left to an Amsterdam type of development for people 24/7, not for some big shot to make money out of bussing people in and out.

Ever since I was a little boy going to watch Everton with my Dad and Grandad in the late 70?s I was mezmerized by Goodison and the Evertonians in it. I spent most of my first few matches in the old family stand in the Lower Tier of the Bullens Road watching the Gwlady Street swaying around after we scored. I?ll never forget the noise and sight of Goodison rocking when Andy King scored against Liverpool in my first ever Derby. Over the years I remember going to most of the other grounds in the top 2 divisions watching Everton and singing ?Shitty Ground? to the home supporters because I knew that we had Goodison and that it was special. Even when Everton were rubbish (Which in the early 80?s we certainly were) I still new that Everton were a massive and great club because of our huge support and because of Goodison. I?m not sure that would have been the same if we?d played in a stadium that was similar to Everyone elses. I honestly think that Goodison itself has a lot to do with us Evertonians knowing we are special and I?m worried this will be lost by going to a second rate stadium anywhere!

There were only 2 things that let Goodison down for me over the years, firstly the lack of a roof on the Gwlady Street, which eventually got done and made a massive difference (Didn?t it cost a whopping £60,000 to do? in the 80?s), and the Park End, which was crap. I dreampt that someone in the club would have the vision to flattent the old Park End and extend the Main Stand and Top Balcony around so that 50% of the ground was a triple decker. Just imagine what that would look like to visiting fans and players! Alas, when we finally knocked the Park End down some far sighted genius decided that we should put in a single decker stand that the likes of Preston and Blackpool were putting in.

I?m a big fan of football grounds and sad as it will sound actually travelled around Europe in my early 20?s to go to the San Siro, Bernabeu, Neu Camp, Stadium of Light, Stadio Della Alpi etc. The reason I wanted to go to these stadiums was because they were unique, had character and embodied the great clubs that played there. I?m no different now and desperately want to go to see Boca Juniors at the Bombonara for the same reasons. My main concern is that by leaving for a shiny new but ultimately bland and predictable stadium which is the same as everyone elses
we will be throwing away a big part of our clubs identity and it?s unique place in European football by ditching Goodison.

For me, Goodison?s place in history and in my life is too important to be given up unless it is for something befiting of our heritage and standing and I?m really concerned that the new stadium won?t come close to what we?re leaving behind.

We?ve cleared all the houses behind the Park End now so why can?t my vision of an Extended Main Stand and Top Balcony be realised on the current footprint? I?m sure a sympathetic and cleverly designed extension could be created which would include the much needed corporate boxes we apparently so desperately need and still drastically increase the capacity. Once this was done we could then set about rebuilding the Bullens Road stand and Gwlady Street stands over time. As Michael Brien rightly pointed out, Newcastle managed to rebuild St James? Park and that genuinely is as land locked as Goodison and no one can tell me that Newcastle had more money to do that development back then than we could generate now.

John Lennon once said ?some may say I am a dreamer...........but I?m not the only one.?

If Goodison CAN NOT be redeveloped over time, then as a minimum I want to see a pationate Evertonian and stadium enthusiast (I?ll offer my services for free) be involved in the stadium design process to make sure our standing in the game is not irreparably damaged and our dreams don?t turn in to nightmares.

Perhaps I am a dreamer, but if I am then Everton and Goodison Park has played a huge part in making me that way, I I don?t want that to be lost for future generations, including my son.

Robbie...i really appreciate your attitude.I especially love the quote from ’Imagine’...and the last paragraph...

I used to be a regular at Goodison Park although my last game was in fact the Andrew King one in October 1978. I have since Christmas of that year been living in Dallas, TX. That said, I am back in england staying with my daughter.

As much as Goodison is well loved (by us at least), a lick of paint and some refurbishments here and there are not the long-term solution. I as much as previous individuals on the forum do not want to see us taken over by foreign investors - just after their own interests and out to make a fast buck. The fact of the matter being I don't know how long this stadium debate is going on for but we need to find a solution soon.

Goodison will remain an appropriate and adequate venue for the next season or two but after that an alternative site is imperative. Of course Liverpool City Council are being totally apathetic towards our cause instead having favouritism with the scum on the other side of the green.

I could sit here and debate with you all until Halloween but for now let's hope to seeanother steady but decent season with maybe a extended Uefa Cup run or even a League Cup or FA Cup win. And if that sounds like pie in the sky, I remember when this club had to wait until November of the 94-95 season to record a first win. (Ian Durrant - West Ham?). Bottom of the league and staring into the chasm. Six months later and some Lazarus type transformation occurs and we end up safe and of course beating Manchester United in a FA Cup Final.

So lets keep on together and just let Moyes and Kenwright do their jobs. They might not be the most competent duo but at least their hearts are in the right place.

Great post Robbie Shields.
John Benson..... where are all these studies that have been carried out to prove redevelopment is unfeasible? Are they in the public realm, and where can I get hold of copies? If not, how have you seen them? Conversely, the football research unit and other transport research agencies have done plenty of studies to suggest that GP has quite good infrastructure, and of course this is backed up by over 100 yrs of experience of using the current site, and as mentioned further supported by the fact that LFC have chosen to remain in the locality. I also disagree with your assertions regarding the Kings Dock. There are a multitude of examples of waterfront stadia, some bigger and in much more congested locations than the KD. As far as bussing people in and out, surely the massive public transport provision at the city centre is the whole point of locating there in the first place, as has been the case for many new stadia worldwide?!

" also disagree with your assertions regarding the Kings Dock. There are a multitude of examples of waterfront stadia, some bigger and in much more congested locations than the KD."

The docks should be for people to live around and enjoy. A virbrant 24/7 community, not a bus em in and out affair. They are not for shed warehouse stores and large once a fortnight use concrete structures, that will kill the area dead most of the time. The legacy of the docks is for the children of the makers to fully enjoy and enhance the city. Stradia acan inmor esuitabel places in Liverpool - even near the docks, but not in them. Imagine all that litter inthe docks on match days!!

The club have done a number of studies, from Hillsborough onwards, and decided to move. If it was best to stay we would be staying.

John, it sounds like youre talking out of your arse mate, a virbrant 24/7 community? Oh god imagine ALL OF THAT LITTER! But hey you love them children who dance around the legacy of the docks, enhancing the city! To most of us you might as well be speakin latin!

...and by the way, if the club have done a number of studies, what would they possibly have to lose by sharing just one of the reports with the thousands of fans worried about this move sham?
KEIOC-GFE

Great post, Robbie! You have encapsulated not just my feelings for Goodison, but as you rightly point out one of our most unique and recognisable features, our Home Stadium. Wherever we end up ( and the simple fact is that we have never been given any real facts to prove whether Goodison is or is not viable - just remember that if you are voting )it is absolutely essential that the Stadium is unique and intrinsically Everton.

To vote Yes to Kirkby ( and it?s in the wrong place in my opinion anyway, but that?s another debate! )you would have to be given a detailed plan of what they are planning on building. If the other half said you were moving, you would only agree after you had viewed what you were moving to, wouldn?t you? If it was new Property you would be given detailed plans and artist?s views at the very least so why not in this case?

Would you move blind? Of course not! Not unless you trusted implicitly the person proposing the move. Of course that?s rather difficult in this case. As you said, when the Park End was built we missed out on a ?proper Goodison like stand? in favour of an Oldham one due to (in your words tinged with irony ) ?some far sighted genius?. Now think back to 1994 and who was on the Board sanctioning something that the Club only paid £1.2m for ( the rest was a grant )? Bill Kenwright, of course. So don?t expect much creative input from him!

"The docks should be for people to live around and enjoy. A virbrant 24/7 community, not a bus em in and out affair. They are not for shed warehouse stores and large once a fortnight use concrete structures, that will kill the area dead most of the time."

Personally, I’d prefer the docks to be for ships..... As a salty, I’m a bit old fashioned like that. But if that’s not viable can’t see why a multi-use stadium cannot be an option like in many other great cities around the world. As for bussing people in, the docks themselves cannot be self sustaining population wise, they will always need non-dock-dwellers to come and use their amenities for them to be viable. Imagine how those bars/restaurants on Albert dock would do if you had to be a resident. John Benson sounds a bit like John Burns to me ;), especially your reference to the docks website. Always find it peculiar the way he once campaigned vehmently for the KD stadium and now says it’s a bad idea.


"The club have done a number of studies, from Hillsborough onwards, and decided to move. If it was best to stay we would be staying."

Well we have stayed there thus long, is that to say that, that was considered best policy for all these post-hillsborough years. Have you seen any of these studies? Who carried them out? As a share-holder I should have access. We all should if you have seen them. Can you highlight the contents?

"Thinking about the stadium with your head surely leads us to the conclusion that Goodison needs bulldozing and we need to go elsewhere as soon as is practically possible...."

Well, I’ve thinking about it, and I don’t reach that conclusion.

Exactly what ’facilities’ are needed for the 21st century?

A footy pitch? - it’s got one of them.

Seats for 40,000 - why do we need any more seats we can’t fill?

Corporate hospitality? - we only have 11 boxes and they are not sold out for every game either.

Goodison is a great place to watch a game, especially when the team is doing well and the fans are up for it.

All the Evertonians I know want one thing - success. If that means queueing up for the toilet at half time, it would be worth it. Show me any evidence that moving stadium will improve our chances of success.

Great reply Robbie - you summed up what Goodison means to Evertonians.
I can see some of the points John Benson is making, but I feel that he is being far from open in his debate.For instance John you ignored the part of my reply where I stated I was not totally against moving.I am not but I would like to see the option of staying at Goodison really explored and considered in depth.
In one of John Benson’s earlier responses he states " Not another veiled stay at GP article...Staying at GP is a non issue" It seems to me that you already have your mind made up.I haven’t made my mind up - all I want is for us to really consider ALL of the options and all of the options means considering staying.
I am an exiled Scouser, living in Branston near Lincoln and working at an office in the centre of Lincoln.Most days when I log into my pc at work to test the digital map system we have,I type in the postcode for Goodison, just so that I can have look at our home on the os map !Indeed at lunch I sometimes go on to Google Earth so that I can look at a photographic image of Goodison.
Sadly I don’t get to Goodison as often as I would like, having been a season ticket holder in the past and going to most and for many seasons all of our home games, it’s difficult to get used to making only a few trips each season.
One of my mates at work is a Gooner and I expected a great report of his first visit to Arsenal’s new home. However he was less than impressed, in fact his decription of the Emirates Stadium seems to fit in with some of the comments I have read on Toffee Web re "souless and characterless" new stadiums.
If we are to move from our beloved Goodison - and I make no apology whatsoever for using that term- then let it be for the right reasons.Lets not dismiss 115 years of history so lightly.Robbie Shields referred to himself as being a dreamer.Good for you mate.Football needs dreamers and people who get emotional about their team and everything about it.If the game loses such attitudes then I fear for the future of football it will become souless.
I recall when I was about 7 or 8 years old my Dad telling me about Dixie Dean,the 60 goals in a season and how he could head a football harder than some people could kick it.I looked at a football book he had and I said to we hadn’t done all that well in the 1950’s even with Dixie Dean in the team!! It was then that my Dad put me right!!
Although my Dad never saw Dixie play, he was as relevant to him as any eye witness.There are no doubt Evertonians who will speak in glowing terms of Ball,Harvey and Kendall who were not aound at the time that they played.Our history is important to us and Goodison Park is central to that history.We must guard our history and traditions with great care, if we do not then we will be letting down future generations of Evertonians.

Great reply Robbie - you summed up what Goodison means to Evertonians.
I can see some of the points John Benson is making, but I feel that he is being far from open in his debate.For instance John you ignored the part of my reply where I stated I was not totally against moving.I am not but I would like to see the option of staying at Goodison really explored and considered in depth.
In one of John Benson’s earlier responses he states " Not another veiled stay at GP article...Staying at GP is a non issue" It seems to me that you already have your mind made up.I haven’t made my mind up - all I want is for us to really consider ALL of the options and all of the options means considering staying.
I am an exiled Scouser, living in Branston near Lincoln and working at an office in the centre of Lincoln.Most days when I log into my pc at work to test the digital map system we have,I type in the postcode for Goodison, just so that I can have look at our home on the os map !Indeed at lunch I sometimes go on to Google Earth so that I can look at a photographic image of Goodison.
Sadly I don’t get to Goodison as often as I would like, having been a season ticket holder in the past and going to most and for many seasons all of our home games, it’s difficult to get used to making only a few trips each season.
One of my mates at work is a Gooner and I expected a great report of his first visit to Arsenal’s new home. However he was less than impressed, in fact his decription of the Emirates Stadium seems to fit in with some of the comments I have read on Toffee Web re "souless and characterless" new stadiums.
If we are to move from our beloved Goodison - and I make no apology whatsoever for using that term- then let it be for the right reasons.Lets not dismiss 115 years of history so lightly.Robbie Shields referred to himself as being a dreamer.Good for you mate.Football needs dreamers and people who get emotional about their team and everything about it.If the game loses such attitudes then I fear for the future of football it will become souless.
I recall when I was about 7 or 8 years old my Dad telling me about Dixie Dean,the 60 goals in a season and how he could head a football harder than some people could kick it.I looked at a football book he had and I said to we hadn’t done all that well in the 1950’s even with Dixie Dean in the team!! It was then that my Dad put me right!!
Although my Dad never saw Dixie play, he was as relevant to him as any eye witness.There are no doubt Evertonians who will speak in glowing terms of Ball,Harvey and Kendall who were not aound at the time that they played.Our history is important to us and Goodison Park is central to that history.We must guard our history and traditions with great care, if we do not then we will be letting down future generations of Evertonians.

When is the penny going to drop with some people WEVE GOT NO MONEY and we wont have any until we get a decent amount of investment

"Personally, I?d prefer the docks to be for ships..... As a salty, I?m a bit old fashioned like that. But if that?s not viable can?t see why a multi-use stadium cannot be an option like in many other great cities around the world. As for bussing people in, the docks themselves cannot be self sustaining population wise, they will always need non-dock-dwellers to come and use their amenities for them to be viable."

I would prefr the docks for shiops and they still can be: cruise liners historic ships, tall ships etc. The old trading daty in some of them are clearly gone an dthey should be put to good use for the population as Amsterdan and Hamburg have shown. They should be vibrant communities not souless concrete structures of shed warehouses, stadia and multi-story car parks. They are historic, even the UN said so, and should be the catalyst of the city projecting the city to greater heights. An EFC stadium can be near the docks, but not in them. They are for people and 24/7 entertainment.

Hard logic says bulldoze GP. Sad but that is what should happen and a new book opened for EFC, not a new chapter.

Go ahead and don’t look back.....

""Thinking about the stadium with your head surely leads us to the conclusion that Goodison needs bulldozing and we need to go elsewhere as soon as is practically possible...."

Well, I?ve thinking about it, and I don?t reach that conclusion.

Exactly what ?facilities? are needed for the 21st century?"

What EFC is high income which a new stadium can bring in. That is the only way to compete at the top in Europe.

"John, it sounds like youre talking out of your arse mate, a virbrant 24/7 community? Oh god imagine ALL OF THAT LITTER! But hey you love them children who dance around the legacy of the docks, enhancing the city! To most of us you might as well be speakin latin!"


Look at what Amsterdam and Hamburg have done with their docks systems. Fabuolous. Vibrant and no litter. Look at the litter around a footy game. That will end up in the docks. A stadium near but not on the docks is brill. The docks are for people, the people whoes garndfather worked on them and left these magnificent structures for us.

It is clear you don’t value our legacy or want the city enhanced - I pity you for your lack of vision and disregard for our city’s history.

Ever tried Birmingham? No water there! Fine for many.