Resources... or Resourcefulness?

It's day 27 in the transfer window and still no action in terms of players incoming to the club. All the talk of no money, couple of loans, no-ones being sold blah blah....., in reality it's same old Everton, leaving it to the last minute. I honestly thought that we would've signed at least one striker by now as we've been without one for such along time. Even before the window reopened, that was the main topic of talk of the fans and even the management that we needed some other options up front due to our injury crisis.

There's always talk from the club that we do it the 'Everton Way' in terms of buying players, but this last minute buying (or loaning in our case) doesn't make sense for the club. The one with the 'fro was bought with minutes to spare back in August and it took him a while to settle in.

So with 5 days left till the window slams shut, what's the betting we sign someone at 11:59pm on the 2nd, and the comment from the club is that this is someone we have been watching/wanting for a long time.

Sometimes you have to laugh. While we have been on this great run, Moyes and the team have been getting huge praise from fans on this site. Moyes is getting his usual hero worshipping, we are being told how fantastic it has been because we have done it with no money and no strikers etc.

But, as soon as someone dare come on and criticise Moyes, they are being told we have no money, we have no strikers etc. The point I am trying to make, is that you can't hail Moyes as a maestro when things are going well, and when he fucks up, you then use the no money, no strikers excuses. You can't have it both ways!

Michael, I?m seriously interested in your response to the following. I?ve not thought this through, and only "chuck it out there."
Is it in the best interests of the club, especially in the current financial environment we find ourselves, to do nothing until the summer? Save our pennies, pray for no more injuries, and add when it is better for the club?s long term interests this summer? Or dare I say next January? If we can pip a Uefa Cup spot and save the funds, should we look more forward and not add someone now when it is financially burdensome?

I?ve no opinion one way or the other currently, and would appreciate and be very interested in your viewpoint on this approach.

I?m sorry Michael but I have to totally disagree with whose door you?re laying the blame at and I think you know where I?m going with this.

Let me say up front I am no Moyes apologist. I think he?s an average coach with a good sense of principle and hard working by nature. However, I genuinely believe that he was as shocked and disappointed as the rest of us by the goings on after the end of last season.

I believe Kenwright and his "my trainset" philosophy is at the root of our problems. What other manager in the premiership has achieved so much and been backed so little (an average of around 4 million a year!!). We have had a small squad that?s been dwindling every year while our competitors have built their squads up.

IMO it?s only a matter of time before the bubble bursts and we slide down the table.

And I can only blame what I see as the most incompetent board in the Premier League.

Jay, I think you?re right in putting most of the blame on the board, for not running the club as well as they should have done and not attracting money from as many sources as possible. Elstone is attempting to address this problem, but he is 3 years too late.

In relation to Moyes, I have to agree with Michael, the summer should have been used in full. Not on chasing players we couldn?t afford but in adopting new methods and trying out free-kicks, improving ball skills etc.

We have a decent basic squad of players, with good attitude and motivation. What we need the manager to do is concetrate less on hard-work on the training ground and more skill based sessions. Who knows... the players might find using the ball is less hard work than chasing the bloody thing!

Moyes also has to question his philosphy of shunning certain players because of the odd error or wayward behaviour. Our club needs every person who is being paid to perform or be ready to perform at their best all the time. If DM doesn?t fancy a player then ship them out or send them on loan for experience / match practice.

If the results don?t go our way in the next few weeks then maybe DM will have the opportunity to give his younger starlets the chance to prove they belong in the Premier League. What mustn?t happen is that the last couple of months are wasted because we have no realistic targets to aim for.

In DM?s defence I think following his long hard look at himself and the club, he has started to act and sound more like the man we all want him to be. But if in 4 years time he hasn?t achieved something tangible it will have all been in vain.

Jamie, it?s hard to answer without knowing the true financial state of the club. The lack of incoming is most likely reflective of a lack of money... but you then have to ask (as others have), where the hell has it all gone? And how can other Premier League teams still bring players in ? players like bloody Heskey, who can go on to be an instant matchwinner!!!

The second thought is that David Moyes only wants to bring in quality, and has not been impressed with anything available. That?s just about believable, and combines with his well-known dislike of the January window. And holding off until the summer may improve both the choice in terms of quality available, and the money... although the economy could get a whole pile worse before it gets better (oh darn it... there?s me being "negative" again...).

But as for waiting until next January; no. He needs to be making incremental progress, and will probably make a handful of changes in the summer... if there is any money!

Michael

You present a powerful case against DM. You’ve stuck to the facts . . . .at least the ones that suited your argument, whilst very conveniently ignoring the circumstances



Bk should have given Moyes a - sign or f..k off - ultimatum long before the contract pantomime was concluded, many Evertonians - myself included - shared your disgust at the pair of them.
But by putting our early season form down to DM’s selfishness, your overlooking everything else the fans were having to suffer, of course the contract saga was a contributary factor but even if Moyes signed on day one would things have been that much different ? would we really have found the transfer fees AND the wages to attract the sort of player who would improve our squad ?
And with little more than a handfull of kids available for early pre- season training did it really make that much difference to our preparation ?

If your looking for reasons to explain our early season form, I would suggest it was more to do with

1) Cahills injury : like you say he contibutes little in some games, but his goals have probaly won us 12points since he returned from injury

2) Pienaar’s injury ; we missed his energy big time, When Pienaar plays well, so do Everton

3 Inividual errors : Howard, Yobo, Lescot, and the jag wre all having lapses of concentration. No team - or Manager - can legislate for this

4) The Yak : some will claim he was starved of service, but this guy is our biggest asset and there can be no denying his form had fallen off a cliff

Moyse has his faults, but we all have to accept some things are just out of the managers control

My feeling is that DM stalled on his contract because he wanted to know what funds would be available to him accounting for the ground move (fiasco). BK has told him that should he soldier on and keep his dignity then he would be given a massive contract.

Whilst Moyes was pondering over the big offer, he had one eye on Celtic which never came about. I am glad that he stayed because we don?t need any more instability but BK needs to be sorted out. We can only hope that should the ground move collapse then some funds that were being saved might just appear.

What I find most problematic in your argument, Michael, is the fact that you completely ignore the fact that there are 20 teams in the division. So when you ask ’what better resources did we have last season that gave us such an edge on this season?’, you could turn that on the head and ask: ’what’s the difference between Aston Villa this season compared to last?’. Of course, DM can’t control AV at any point - but to leave them out of the equation altogether is not - IMO - possible, if you want to get real answers.

So, basically: we were shitty at the start of the season. We lost to Standard Liege in the UEFA-cup, a side that went on to do what we did - win its games in the group stage. We lost in the Carling Cup - that was bad. And we are three points behind where we were at this point last season.

Contrary to what you are implying, we ARE doing the best with the resources available (you wrote ’The reality is the manager has to cope with what he has’). While I believe you are right about DM not signing a new contract disrupted our form early on (coupled with the fact that several players were missing), I do not use that as an excuse to critisize him at every point (which you have done this season). And your point of nicking the odd goal and defend? Does that go for every game? Or does it happen every now and then that we win games with a different scoreline?

Sorry to say, but you are becoming Tony Marsh: some valid points, but lost in the general negativity of your writings.

Kenrick, I’m flattered that my post on the "what have we learned" thread has caused you to write this pile of drivel.

There may be us "realists" but then there are deluded fools like you and Tony Marsh. Us realists do not believe that we should be throwing "gobs of money" at players. I, for one, think the way Everton do things is the right way, slowly building a good solid squad. The likes of Tottenham, West Ham, and Man City have shown it’s not about the amount of money, it’s how you spend it. In that sense your point about resourcefulness is correct.

The reason you’re deluded, MK, is this totally unrealistic expectation that players like Gosling, Baxter and Rodwell are going to come into the side and help us play this fast flowing football. The fact that without Arteta against the RS, we’re suddenly going to play attacking football in their own back yard! In that game, I don’t feel Moyes had any other options. You should read your post back to yourself and think really hard about what you’re writing. I’m not sure you fully comprehend the modern day game.

For us "realists" it is not about accepting 6th place. I still hold the Nil Satis Nisi Optimum club motto should be what we aspire to and I’m very proud of our School of Science traditions but to not accept our lack of resources has any bearing on our perfomrances and ability to compete through a whole season is seriously, seriously deluded.

Michael,

I think it?s unfair to completely dismiss the issue of resources, and I think Moyes has performed reasonably consistently with the resources available (3 top 6 finishes in the last 4 yrs). It is not always possible to preform consistently with limited resources, because if a team with greater resources also performs to the sum of its parts, it will out-perform us (eg Tottenham the 2 years they came 5th, or Villa this season).

Regarding pre-season, in some ways I don?t blame Moyes, he wanted to carry on the hard work and build on the progress of last season and he was denied the chance to do that, it must have been a huge blow for him and must?ve felt like going back to square one.

Brian, my poor deluded friend, why can’t we have it both ways?

Why can’t I say I think that Moyes has done a great job thus far given the limited resources (praise) AND that I think he could do better if he was given more resources (pointing to the truth as I see it)?

There’s no contradiction there whatsoever. Your paper thin ’argument’ is flawed

The first couple of league games after the second Fiorentina game we were just awful. Yes, it was a shitty way to go out of the cup, given that we should have won the second game by a shed load of goals, but something should have been done straight away. Instead, for the remaining ten games of the season, a full quarter of a league campaign, we were absolutely dreadful, with little or no confidence or inspiration amongst the players at all. We needed a last day win against Newcastle to confirm fifth place and a Uefa Cup spot. This honestly should have been addressed immediately during the run of games and then again over the summer. Instead things went from bad to worse and for the first seven or eight games of this season we were just as bad. To me, this is unforgivable on Moyes part.

Moyes has also given it loads this month about not having any money to spend and about having to make do. Yet, he seems to be incapable of using the subs bench. The same eleven or twelve players have been ran into the ground over the last seven or eight games. It doesn?t seem to matter that Anichebe spends half his time falling on his backside and the other half complaining. It doesn?t seem to matter that Pienaar spends the game running his socks off as the only counter attacking option. It doesn?t seem to matter that fit senior players like Castillo and VDM are just left sitting on the bench. The small group of fit senior players that we have just aren?t getting a chance to rest, especially now during a run of a game every three or four games. When you think about it, not only is this a poor use of resources, it is also very short sighted on Moyes part. The players that are out injured have had long term injuries. It is going to take them time to get back to full match fitness. In the mean time we are having to cross our fingers that the eleven or twelve players mentioned above don?t get injured themselves. Instead of using the fifteen or sixteen players to hand, I think Moyes is taking a huge chance.

Alan Clarke says, "There may be us realists, then there are deluded fools like you and Tony Marsh." Deluded fools is it Alan? Well it's you that lives in Manchester and supports Everton mate not me...

We all pays our money and we all have a right to our say. If that say doesn't please you, well fucking tough. Who made you official spokesman for all Evertonians?

Regardless of what you might think, there is a huge gulf between what some of us except as being the best we can do with what we have got and I think things could be a whole lot better with a bit more vision and ambition. Two things, vision and ambition, that our chairman lacks in abundance.

What drives me and many others around the bend is the lack of communication between the manager and the chairman towards the fans. I still don't know if we actually can not afford a single new player in this window or if Moyes doesn't want any new players. The manager and the chairman keep coming out with different statements. BK has never said we are skint so what the fuck's going on at the club?

Surely one of the worlds biggest clubs ? BK's words last week, not mine ?can affford at least one loan player to bolster the squad? Surely one more salary on the books won't cripple us financially will it?

Maybe you're right, Alan, I might be delusional but one thing I am not is easily fooled. While Kenwright and to a certain extent Moyes lead you and your Ilk on a merry dance down yet another garden path, I will still fight my corner and ask for answers to all the Bullshit we are fed. You can just go along for the ride if you like.

The facts are simple, it is completely down to resources.

The clubs that pay 250% what we pay finish consistently above us. (Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United, Liverpool)

The clubs that pay 50%-80% more than we do finish around the same place as us. (Aston Villa, Tottenham, WestHam, Portsmouth, Newcastle)

The clubs that pay the same or less than us tend to get relegated.

Is it Moyes fault that Aston Villa (who finished one place lower than us) could then spend £55m on transfers and increase their wage bill by £500k a week? If Moyes had that option do you honestly think we wouldn’t even be slightly better or have slightly more options?

Anyone who expects a team to perform at 100% of potential 100% of the time is deluded.

Alan, I thought long and hard about responding to your thread because it was, in my humble opinion and to use your own words, ?a pile of drivel? from a Moyes apologist. It also seemed to me to be a bit of an ego trip (?Kenrick, I?m flattered that my post on the "what have we learned" thread has caused you to write this pile of drivel?).

I don?t actually think Michael was saying anything about throwing ?gobs of money? at players but he is critical of the way in which Everton, under David Moyes, have built their squad, which is very slowly (whilst other teams develop their capabilities at a faster and more sustainable rate) and limiting any recruitment to a very few players who might or might not meet the need. Your examples of Man City, Tottenham and West Ham are obvious and, somewhat ironically, strongly support Michael?s basic tenet ? that it is NOT purely the resources you have, performance is also strongly impacted by the basic management capability of effectively managing and developing people. In short, it is the way in which you manage and deploy your resources and Michael is concerned that David Moyes does not manage his resources as effectively as he could. A basic understanding of effective management practice and psychology would tell you this. If you had actually read Michael?s thread and not leapt straight into front brain mode with an emotionally charged ? rather than rationally based ? argument, you might have realised this.

Concerns expressed in another post on this thread also seem to worry Michael, to viz, Mr Moyes?s habit of shutting certain players out (VDM, Beattie and the talented Krøldrup) because they looked at him the wrong way or have genuinely offended the manager in some other way. Being a manager or coach requires a far more mature approach than this and, in my opinion, David Moyes is capable of this but he needs to address this weakness and quickly as it is affecting his reputation in the player community.

Your further comment or rather, opportunistic attack on Mr Kenrick ?The reason you?re deluded, MK, is this totally unrealistic expectation that players like Gosling, Baxter and Rodwell are going to come into the side and help us play this fast flowing football? indicates, to me at leas Alan, that you are the one who clearly ?doesn?t fully comprehend the modern day game? (or the message behind Michael?s thread).

What Michael is rightly saying is that if you do not play these players now, even in short cameo appearances, then they are not going to develop. This is coaching 101 and is addressed as resource development. Like Michael, I agree we can?t expect these youngsters to ?play fast flowing football? at present but we will be needing this capability from them in the next few years and the 1st team match play aspect of their development should start now and when opportunities arise.

I?ll now throw back to you a couple of further comments you made to Michael in that you should re-read Michael?s thread and then you ??should read your post back to yourself and think really hard about what you?re writing? because I?m not sure you comprehend what your own point is, apart from taking a cheap shot at Michael.

As for labelling yourself a ?realist?, I?m not sure that?s the case Alan. You go on to say ?For us "realists" it is not about accepting 6th place. I still hold the Nil Satis Nisi Optimum club motto should be what we aspire to and I?m very proud of our School of Science traditions but to not accept our lack of resources has any bearing on our performances and ability to compete through a whole season is seriously, seriously deluded? whilst at the same time ignoring (conveniently or otherwise) the reasons we have a lack of resources. It was because the manager did not do his job last summer.

We can guesstimate that he didn?t have the funds made available or come up with some other reason for this and lay the blame at Bill Kenwright?s feet, but the fact still remains that David Moyes, despite banging on in the latter part of last season about the need to strengthen the squad in the summer of 2008, did not do so in the manner he claimed he wanted to (get the new players on board early in the window).

Laurie, without wanting to get into a cheap shot debate, your whole post too is written in front brain mode. You?ve not come up with any more facts than I have.

I?m actually in agreement with Tony Marsh and I apologise for the fool comment. I don?t think I am a Moyes apologist, I?ve called for his head on many occassions. I feel Moyes has made some bad errors in his time with Everton but this season I think he?s shown a vast improvement in his tactical abilities. It does rile me though when fellow Evertonians have this expectation that we should somehow be better when we?re absolutely skint. Moyes deserves credit for managing to bring in the likes of Arteta, Cahill and Pienaar and the stability of our defence.

The blame therefore lies with Kenwright for his constant lies and inability to provide any extra funding for Moyes. In that I agree with Marsh but I cannot agree with Kenrick for his attack on Moyes.

As a proud member of the Realist Tendency, I think there is a danger of getting into a false either / or argument. Either ?resources are everything? or ?resources miss the point? are both wrong.

As Tim says above, OBVIOUSLY resources are a great part of the explanation of who finishes where over a season. Otherwise you have no explanation of why the so-called ?Big Four? have won pretty much everything over the last fifteen years. Why haven?t Middlesborough or West Ham won the Premier League?

But also teams can punch above or below their resources ?weight? ? due to such factors as the quality of the manager, team tactics and spirit, the stability at the club etc.. Again, to us Realists the situation is pretty clear: for the last five years, and including this season, Everton have punched above their weight. I give a lot of credit to Kenwright for creating a stable club environment, and Moyes for being such a good finder of talent and motivator of the team.

I do not think it is helpful to talk about "deluded fools". However, I think the Romantics like Michael and Tony are to a large extent living in the past. It is true that in the good old days of the Mersey Millionaires, it was quite reasonable to expect (nay, demand!) that we always finished near the top and regularly won trophies.

Now we should absolutely and always aspire to (nay, demand) that we do the best we possibly can with the resources at our disposal. And also that we get more resources. However, what a Realist like me believes is that finishing consistently just below the big four, as we have been doing, is punching above our weight and is an achievement to be proud of, not a failure to be constantly denigrated.

Putting things in perspective, Moyes has done better, on the face of it, than Walter Smith & Mike Walker.

He has yet to win any trophies, something which Kendall and Royle managed to do, so I would not say he is better than either of those two.

Under the management of Moyes the team does seem to be improving, albeit with every two steps foward we take one backwards, but the big test will be whether he will win us any trophies. Watch this space!

I believe two main factors are responsible for the failure to secure loan signings earlier in this window.

1. A reluctance to join Everton by many British players given Moyes?s sergeant-major reputation and predilection towards negative football. This may not be altogether justified but is the perception of him within the game.

2. A long-standing policy to complete signings as late as possible in each window so as to conserve funds. The fact that a whole month?s benefit from new blood has been lost is systematically ignored.

Michael sums up the situation very well. Those who have dealings with Moyes will tell you the man is susceptible to alarming mood swings and it would be nonsense to believe that these do not rub off on his players.

Please don?t tell me it?s because he cares. We all do.

For fuck's sake. It always amazes me how deluded and negative some of the people on this site are. Where the hell do you think we should be, challenging for the title? The fact that once again we are in place for European qualification is nothing short of a minor miracle. Do you honestly believe it is Moyes?s choice to have such a shit squad?

I agree with the Tottenham argument, we shouldn?t just be throwing money at a bunch of pre-madonnas. But we do need to strengthen, that is obvious to everyone. So why haven?t we? Is it Moyes or is it the fact we havn?t got a pot to piss in. The fact we can?t even compete with the likes of Hull is a disgrace.

If you really need to satisfy your need to be negative, direct it at the Board not continually at Moyes. Remeber where we were with Smith and Royle, because we should by rights be back down there.

Brian Noble - if Moyes is such a well known bad man manager, and no-one wants to play for us, how do you explain the fact that he has managed to retain Arteta, Cahill, Lecott, Yobo etc., who could all easily go elsewhere? How do you explain the fact that we probably have the most stable squad of players in the Premier League?

The reason we can?t get any loan signings of the right quality is because we don?t have any money.

Personally, I?ll be glad if Moyes signs no-one... his recent ?Lazarus? and loan signings bring nothing whatsoever to the club: Jacobsen, Saha, Castillo, Gardner, Nash... to name but a few.

As Michael suggests, the ?no money? argument is not only a fallacy but also a distraction from the fact that we have a manager who should be able to competently use the resources at his disposal. If those resources are not enough for him to compete ? then he should take it up with Kenwright, who is the main barrier to extra resources.

And every time I hear the use of the term ?net spending? I wanna scream... Not only does it automatically eliminate about £50 million from the equation ? but it also suggests that Moyes has been forced to sell ? which is not the case.

The lack of transfer activity is extremely frustrating when we are down to our bare bones and when other clubs seem to find it easier to bring loan players in. Though some fantastic deals have been done (Cahill, Lescott, Pienaar etc), Everton often seem to be inconsistent and ineffective players in the transfer window. Whether this is due to (very) limited resources, the innate caution of Moyes, or a poor scouting network, we don?t really know. And Tony Marsh is right about one thing, the club is terrible at communicating a consistent message to the fans about our circumstances.

Beyond that Kenrick?s argument doesn?t stack up. Resources can be divided up into availability and utilisation. There is a perhaps understandable view amongst fans that they could do better than the manager and we get a steady stream on this site who decry his tactics, his use of substitutes and so on. The individual points may have some validity, but it?s really small beer compared to the wider resource picture. Yes, Moyes is over-cautious and is better at defence than attack. But the team can and does play skilful, on the ground football more often than is given credit for.

More importantly, Moyes does an astonishing job with the resources he has available in fashioning a successful team. This is the view, incidentally, of virtually every fan and commentator outside Merseyside. As a number of other posts have rightly pointed out, what is lacking in Kenrick and Co is a sense of proportion and comparison. Look at Newcastle, Portsmouth, Tottenham ? clubs that have had huge money made available to their numerous managers and with what result? They are still struggling. Let?s be honest, we can?t know for certain how well Moyes would have done with those kind of resources, but given his track record I would argue that Everton would be competing aggressively with the Sky Four.


One final point. It suits those who find it difficult to praise Moyes and find any pleasure in our performances under him to label the rest of us ?Moyes apologists?. Other than the occasional figure of Richard Dodds, I can?t think of any ?realist? who posts on this site who doesn?t try and see things in a balanced and rounded way. Take your blinkers off, Michael.

"we spent the entire first half of last season in the top half of the Premier League; this season, it was spent mostly in the bottom half... not really what you would consider to be "progress"

This isn’t true. In this first half (18 games) of this season we spent 7 game weeks in the bottom half, including the first couple of weeks which don’t really count. Even including these weeks that’s only 39% which I’m pretty sure isn’t ’most’. Indeed if you talking about time between the start of the season and now then we have spent 32% of our season in the bottom half. This season is a lot different than last season too!

One thing I?d like to add is that all this talk that BK is running this club like a little toy and is deliberately driving any investors away is in my opinion blinkered.

I don?t think we will get any new investors until we get the stadium issue sorted out. This may sound stupid, but imagine you are trying to sell a car, it?s a good runner and a respected make and model, the trouble is, it needs a fair bit of attention to the body work. If you were a buyer, would you insist the owner sorted the bodywork out before buying, or would you buy it anyway and then pay extra for the repairs later? I think only a die-hard fanatic would buy the car in that condition, unfortunately when it comes to Everton, it?s more about business and most (though not all) investors will look for a guarenteed return. In football there are no guarentees. Some clubs have found it easier to attract investment because they already have new stadia (Citteh, the Arse), or they have stadia that can be extended easily (Villa, Man Ure), or will be a play thing (Chelski), or have a global brand that is ripe for exploiting (the RS ? look at all those Scandinavians in Anfield!). What we need is a mega rich Evertonian who will invest heavily without demanding to pick the team or betray our club?s traditions and heritage in a get rich quick scheme - anybody know anyone who?ll fit the bill?

Just getting investment won?t necessarily cure all the issues ? look at the RS. The Kopites were desparate for the Yanks to outbid DIC, look at them now. In this credit crunch climate I wouldn?t be surprised to see the scum bag banks calling in a lot more loans ? they?re desparate for money and who owns them millions?

Even if we did have a new owner, what would happen? Would any big name signings ruin the team spirit that makes us stand out?

I hoped that we would be able to get a couple of loan signings, see how they settled in and if they made us a better team thenn try to sign them in the summer ? while shipping out perennial under achievers (AVM etc...) I think we should have gone after Podolski ? proven international, unsettled at current club and probably used to playing matches on muddy pitches in sub-zero temperatures. Even our Miki stated that the weather was shocking in the interview posted recently, this obviously affects some players more than others ? is this another reason why the RS are having a blip? All their latino lovelies feeling the chill? At least our Miki seems to play well in the cold ? perhaps his stint in Glasgow helped.

I?ve always held the opinion that we are better when we?re up against it. We know what the side is going to be, they all know their jobs and they clearly work on it in training. We never seem to play as well when we have the full squad to choose from. I think Rodwell and Gosling can make it into the team in the near future if given the chance, but DM seems reluctant to blood the youngsters sometime ? his defensive nature kicking in I guess.

I think after our fixture pile up is over ? a couple of weeks more. Perhaps the guys should spend a few hours in the afternoons training as well ? specific skills, set pieces ? nothing that will tire them out, but perhaps, enough to give something extra in important matches. I read somewhere that Beckham immitated Jarzinho and used to take 100 free kicks in training every day, but as soon as he became famous he stopped doing so many and what happened? He didn?t score so many goals direct from free kicks ? not rocket science is it?

"One key difference is that we are out of the two cup competitions that played a significant role in driving the momentum of last season"

I have to question the validity of this too.

We were knocked out of the Carling Cup by this time last year (23rd Jan we were knocked out), we had also been knocked out of the FA Cup (which we are as of yet still in this year). Yes we were still in the Uefa Cup, but then we hadn?t had to qualify against Standard Liege had we. Can we give them a bit of credit for being a very good side? As domestic chamions in my eyes they should have had direct entry to Chapions League anyway.

Michael, I think you?re totally wrong on Moyes?s contract. He?s not a greedy man ? and his contract is nowhere near is large was reported in some newspapers. Moyes stalled because he wanted reassurances that he would still have full control over transfer policies ? EVEN IF KENWRIGHT SELLS.

Having seen what was going on at other clubs (Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle - and now City) he was worried that the loss of Kenwright could lead to the loss of his own control over purchases. The board felt unable to give Moyes this reassurance ? because they felt it may hinder their chances of selling the club ? but eventually agreed and put this detail in his contract.

This has been quite widely reported ? I find it strange that people continue to claim that Moyes was simply holding out for more money. That simply isn?t true.

I can?t explain away, with any justification, what goes on behind the locked doors of Goodison Park. It?s all so full of shit. I can only judge Moyes with my own eyes.

David Moyes has always been a good Championship manager ? with an authortitarian streak, poor tactical ability and very little foresight ? he doesn?t have a ?big picture? mentality, merely plodding along from day to day. He also seems to have his favourites which undoubtedly creates animosity in the dressing room. He should have stayed with Preston, who would probably be a struggling Premier League outfit by now .... says it all really.

MK

Agree with probably 95% of your analysis mate. There is always going to be a grey area betwixt two polarised philosophies, but it is most definitely NOT all about having loads of resources, but conversely not 100% down to how one sends one?s team out.

If it were simply about resources then it?s an easy one to bat away by looking at Tottenham. Even the RS, if one looks at how many players the waiter has bought and then not played & sold. It?s a bit like having too many shirts to choose from for work, it creates uncertainty & takes longer to get dressed.

It is also unarguable, IMHO, about the effect that Moyes?s behaviour & demeanour had on the squad and the club between Fiorentina and 2 months into this season. Had he maintained his broad philosophy of recent times and prepared the players mentally & physically then we could have moved forward. THAT, beyond question, was almost the denouement for him. If Kenwright had one failing it was in not issuing an ultimatum when DM ejected toys from pram and lost focus. Equally, I understand why Kenwright didn?t (from his perspective).

It was also crucial to me (and obviously to DM) who he appointed as coach. It is also unarguable that on occasions we show too little attacking ambition, creating pressure for our defence and making 1-0 scorelines a bit too common for my liking. Maybe Steve Round will be shown to be the man. We are playing some nice stuff on occasions and thankfully seem to have moved on from the abject shite that was being served up from pre-season to October. This man needs to smooth out Moyes?s failings and help to give Moyes more confidence that we can set up more offensively and achieve the same result (or better) and do it more stylishly.

I also totally endorse your point about blooding the Goslings and Rodwells more. Some people on this thread clearly miss both the point therein and the objective for the team. Gosling, Rodwell, Agard & Jutkiewicz all seem to be excellent young players, and good footballers. They have a natural energy and innate positivity that can help us greatly. Witness their contribution at Anfield, in a short timeframe and under pressurised circumstances.

Moyes deserves praise for bringing these young guys to the edge, now he needs to let them in. By not playing them in the Carling, or even at Macclesfield, I believe he is missing a great opportunity. He is clearly trying to foster & maintain a team unity, fair dinkum, but this is where Round needs to help Moyes to open up and see that this is an investment opportunity for us. Our squad is too small to allow these lads to go out on loan. Thus, if they don?t get regular top level competitive games they will stagnate.

Your analysis of our financial reality is on the nail. Clearly seen as a green light by the usual suspects to hammer Kenwright (again, zzzzz). But the point of it is that this is currently who we are. Some fans clearly have difficulties accepting this. Some are even deluded, insisting that the fact some bloke created our motto 130 odd years ago and wrote it in Latin is tantamount to it being a fundamental right for evermore.

I am 100% of the school of thought that requires clubs to live within their means (i.e. income) as espoused by Platini, Wenger etc. It follows from this that I DO NOT think we should extend our borrowings even further to acquire players. As you rightly say, it simply is what it is. We have a good squad and some great young players chomping to get in. Even AVDM could (and IMHO should) have been used on occasions.

There is no billionaire stalking EFC and unlikely to be one for some time. And I?m not bothered. I don?t want Kaka or Messi or Pirlo or Villa or..... I am happy to accept that there is a better way. For evidence look, not only at Hoffenheim, but at Arsenal. Sure, they?re having an odd season for them, but bear in mind the injuries they?ve sustained (Eduardo, Rosicki, Fabregas...) and loss of key players to Bosman, and it?s not so bad. More importantly, for those who constantly bemoan EFC?s lack of investment (usually termed Kenwright?s lack of investment), is that Arsenal?s record transfer fee paid is less than ours. Most players are acquired young and taught the Arsenal way, or they are bought because they fit into the Arsenal way.

I regard Wenger as a genius. He fulfills his role like a custodian, not some transient manager who is always looking for the next big pay day. He is a realist and will not spend money the club doesn?t have. They run the club as a business. Interestingly (for the Kenwright haters) none of the Arsenal board have invested a single penny in the club, other than to buy shares (from other individuals). To me, they are the model to follow. Being close to central London, they can get away with things (land value etc) that we can?t even dream of matching. But it?s the realism and pragmatism that I admire, both in the way the club is run and in their philosophy on the pitch. If Arsenal had our defence they?d be top of the league :-)

My conclusion?

Forget billionaires, forget the chairman or the board having to give the club money (why should they?), forget extending our debt, forget Kaka, Messi et al. Focus on what we have and join together to make it as good as it can possibly be. Don?t ever forget, it could be one hell of a lot worse than it is right now.

Take comfort in the fact that we have the finest "team" of players we?ve had for over 20 years. We?ve also got some great youth & energy waiting to step in. That?s Moyes?s next step. Transform us into the team that wants the ball, all the time, and that is always looking to defend by attacking.

Everton, much to the surprise I?m sure of many TW observers, is viewed externally as a very together club, on & off the pitch and between club and fans. By all means vent frustrations when things are really dour (I have). But also give credit where it?s due. We?re not there yet, but we?re doing OK. The solution might be within rather than in someone?s wallet. And if you have any lingering doubts about the potential to do much more with much less, consider this...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sa8DyaYapw&feature=related

Just a note on the resources thing, this time last year we were level on points with Manchester City and Aston Villa.

Since then Aston Villa have spent net (players in minus players out) just over £40m, Manchester City have spent net just under £85m and Everton have spent net about between £1 and 3 million (depending on how much Saha cost!)/

The resources thing wouldn?t be an issue if it was a few million here or there but year-in, year-out, we underspend £20 - 40 million compared with our rivals. No other manager could do that and have us competing for Europe.

"He should have stayed with Preston, who would probably be a struggling Premiership outfit by now .... says it all really"

Actually it doesn?t say anything ... it?s just your opinion based on no concrete evidence. If anything, Moyes has certainly proven his ability to turn a struggling Premier League team into one consistently challenging for Europe (that's based on fact). So had Preston become a struggling Premier League team, maybe they?d be 6th in the Premier League right now!

"Moyes deserves praise for bringing these young guys to the edge, now he needs to let them in. By not playing them in the Carling, or even at Macclesfield, I believe he is missing a great opportunity."

Maybe, but I for one couldn?t arsed logging on here the next day when we?ve been knocked out and everybody is moaning their arses off about what a crap cup manager Moyes is.

Pete Stuart wtf are you on about?

A good Championship manager? He’d only spent about 2yrs there before his 6 years in the premiership with us.

Poor tactically? How do you explain taking teams with the likes of Marcus Bent, Kevin Kilbane, Lee Carsley, Leon Osman, Tony Hibbert etc to the top 6 consistently. How many other managers have you seen do that?

No big picture mentality, just plodding along? Are you sure? What about Finch Farm? What about all the young lads he’s given chances to? And who are his favourites exactly?

Moyes has a pragmatic management style, which is more results than style-focused. When he thinks we won’t have a chance of getting a result in style he’ll try to win ugly (eg Sunday). Would you prefer we were like Boro? Playing pretty football but aspiring to mid-table mediocrity every season?

Pete Stuart

I agree that if Moyes stayed at Preston they would be a struggling Premier League team by now. But I?ve no doubt that we would be a struggling Championship team by now if that were the case. Or Worse.

I?m not saying Moyes does not have his faults, and he?s far from the godlike figure some make him out to be, but I will say that without him we would be a whole lot worse off. Your post has to be one of the most ridiculous I have seen in a long time.

I go to the games and note that in the main each one is different in terms of individual form, tactics, and opposition?s method of play. Add all this to the fact it's quite rare to have the same eleven out game on game due to injuries, suspension etc.etc. Then this is the situation the manager has to manage and in the main I think we cope quite well, in fact well enough to have become a top-six contender each season and qualify for Europe.

Not bad, you might think... but for me as a fervent Blue I am saddened by the realisation that really it?s as far as we will go as long as we have to dither about all transfer window long to just bring one quality player in, often too late to make any impact until September/October.

On reaching Europe, we commit ourselves to battle on four main fronts which brings a lot of games and, whilst the cup games are important in their own right, the fact remains that to do it all again the following season we have to once again be a top six side. Add to this, Club, Manager and fans all want to go that extra mile and join the top four clubs, then I just can?t acccept that managing what we can cobble together and trust in God and Luck that a squad of just 14/15 top pro?s can deliver and achieve.

Maybe just one season if everything came together we could do a Porto but to get where I want Everton to be, CL every season, challenging for league title and cup finals, then history tells me we would need squads that match our own EPL present top four as well as your Madrids, Barcas and Milans. Now here's the rub: How is that achieved?

Again, history gives us the answer ? money, astute manager and first class scouting team that identifies the kids worldwide that will become stars.

Until we get to this point, I fear that we will stay as we are and indeed worse still be liable to be overtaken by teams that do secure sufficient investment.

When it comes to our present manager, I am neither anti or pro. What I crave is a manager given the wherewithal to build a squad that takes us to where we want to be rather than one that gets plaudits for doing so well on a shoestring. As a fan, I have no say... so can only hope that one day my beloved club can achieve the level of finance that can fulfill the dreams of all those wonderful loyal Evertonians worldwide.

Being best of the rest means little more than a pat on the head for trying hard. Being the best will take providing your chosen manager with the £££££s to buy a Saville Row suit rather than just belt and braces.
UP THE BLUES

Ken

Good post. The point I agree most with, and where I think we should have concentrated resources before now, is international scouting. Arsenal have turned that into an art (or a science) as have Hoffenheim in Germany.

On the whole we do bring through or acquire good local & UK talent. But we clearly fall short on the international front. THAT is where I?d like to see investment because I think it offers he best future for the club (in the unlikely event that our billionaire doesn?t appear).

Comparing with Villa, City, Spurs etc is futile. Randy Lerner effectively got/made Villa debt-free. They also have no serious competition in the immediate vicinity (I don?t regard B?ham, WBA or Wolves as serious).

So the funds are not there. We have no rich benefactor to put money in like Abramovic (and I think that?s a good thing). We have to optimise what we have and get there slowly. Under Moyes our average league position has improved about 10 places, so could be worse.

I think it?s the pity of pities that EFC and LFC don't bang their stupid heads together and try to work with LCC, EDC and whoever else to deliver a world-class sporting facility for the city that we all share and benefit from. It would be unparalleled in terms of its ability to generate income and prestige. THAT, more than anything else, is what pisses me off.

Our pre-season preparations were a shambles, and many posters seem to forget a certain Mr Wyness resigning at the end of July ?08. This gives an indication of boardroom sqabbles that were prevalent before a ball was kicked.

Moyes knew we were ill-prepared and his comment, "We are not ready to win Premier League games" at the start of the season really pissed me off. I asked a lot of blues who was to blame for this mess we found ourselves in, but no-one could give a factually based answer, it was all heresay.

Moyes had his targets, but they didn?t materialise for whatever reason. Fellaini had to be a panic buy because the deal was concluded on the last minute of the transfer window. We can sign players on loan, but Moyes said a couple of days ago, "Who can we bring in that will improve a top six Premier League side?" I think this tells you all you need to know about our transfer policy. He doesn?t want stop gap signings and we are skint. On one hand you can say he only wants the best for EFC. or he is a stubborn fool.

Personally, I believe he can kick on to bring us success, but we all have different perception of what constitutes success. For me it is Champions League football and domestic cups.

Let's blow the utter bollocks being spouted about us playing for and getting, too many 1-0 victories.

Everton have won only 5 prem games 1-0
The games at City, Bolton Middlesborough Spurs had one thing in common, we were the team attacking and looking for goals, while on each occasion the home team stunk. In two of these matches, as well as in the home game against Fulham the goal came late on as a result of us pressing for a winner.

In all of these matches it was the opposition playing negatively.

The transfer window is drawing to a close and no sign of any deals materalising. Therefore the usual critics of Moyes, Kenwright and anyone else on radar come under a barrage of abuse regardless of results and performances on the pitch.

Sure Moyes isn't perfect, not even Wenger or Ferguson is. Moyes is still a relatively young manager. This is only his second managerial job and he is still learning in the hardest league in the world. Look at Scolari, a world cup winning manager with a whole squad of world class players and money to spend. He is struggling to replicate what Chelsea want.

Admittedly Moyes has made mistakes but will probably own up to them. The contract saga was a mistake. The decisions he makes he stands or falls by them. Most of them have been successes, all of them can't be, perfection isn't possible in life let alone football. Ok, we haven't always played the best football but Moyes has tried. The three months at the end of 2007 was the best football at Goodison in 20 years. Injuries and suspensions stopped this. If you haven't got creative players and ones that can pass the ball, there is a limit to the style of football. However, the last few weeks since Arteta has played in the middle the football has improved greatly. Playing Arteta wide was a mistake, Moyes learnt this eventually and has now changed it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to settle for 2nd (or 6th) best, I want us to win the league. I want us to play quality football. The point I am making is regardless of resources or limitations or strikers or anything else, we ARE moving in the right direction. We ARE progressing up the league year or year. We ARE getting better quality of players in year on year. We ARE bringing quality young players through (slowly due to Moyes' reluctance after Rooney). We ARE playing better football more often. Sure it's a slow process (due to resources, limitations, etc), but Moyes (and Kenwright) ARE moving us in the right direction and us as fans need to remember that and get behind them to help the team even more.

We were a yardstick for lesser teams, now we should use Villa as a yardstick to us to not just be 4th but even 3rd. We can do it and we are doing it, but we need to do it together.

Kase, it smells of hypocrisy, to say he has do a great job with the resources available to him, when things are going well, and when things are dire, to then blame the lack of resources, as the reason?

Mathew, not the " He is still learning " line mate, FFS, he has been with us for 7yrs now.

Take credit for where we are, what we have done regardless of who on the team is responsible (DM/ players/ board or fans). There is more passion for the sport in these posting than 10 years worth of articles here in the US on "the super bowl". If and when I make it to the UK and that trip to Goodison Park, I will gladly buy tickets for the lot of you to spend a match experiencing what you have. Go Blues.

There is no doubt that we are doing well at the moment, that cannot be denied. However, let's not get carried away. So many times over the years, Everton have flattered to deceive. We have lost out on a big opportunity. So, as positive as this run may not be, I know that at any time it could and probably will fall apart.

I won't deny Moyes has done a good job of progressing us up the table and stabilising us; however, he still has his faults, which I think will mean we won't go any further than we are now. While he has shown he can do rather well with limited budget, spending big money is something he is inept in. And also there's the matter of getting as far as just one cup semi-final, when we'd played no-one and got a 2nd Round bye. Also some of his tactical displays are certainly questionable and downright stupid.

The football has at times been improving over the last few years; however, the majority of the time it is usually still poor. Also there is his problem with loyalty towards his players. How many more times must he persist with Osman? Yakubu was in a dreadful run of form before his injury. Even Arteta and Cahill at one stage were having a terrible spell. Yet not once does he drop these players and that's the trouble.

As I've said before and I'll say it again, our run of form has been greatly attributed to the almost fatal bit of luck of Yakubu being injured ? not because Moyes has done anything revolutionary. I don't want this to sound like I'm groaning about Moyes for fun but I'm not the most optimistic and before you know it we will probably be back in a rut again.

And finally to Kenwright. He is a shithouse. If he loves Everton so much then why isn't he backing his manager? And as Tony Marsh rightly said, where the bloody hell is the communication to the fans? How are we supposed to know what's going on. I honestly believe all this about "no money to spend" is total BS. We have potential to move forward but we cannot let this opputunity slip again.
COYB FTRS

"And finally to Kenwright. He is a shithouse. If he loves Everton so much then why isn't he backing his manager?"

What do you expect him to back the manager with? Money doesn?t just appear!

To me it?s fairly simple:

Money + Good Manager = Success
No Money + Good Manager = ?Punching above your weight?
Money + Crap Manager = LIVERPOOL
No money + Crap Manager = Relegation

Just struck me that whenever and whatever we do well it’s all down to Moyes.Anything less than perfect it’s all Kenwright’s fault!

What a load of bollocks.

We wont go further than we are now unless Moyes is given the cash to compete. Under the circumstances he is doing a fantastic job. Kenwright has also done a great job. Wonder what would of happened if Moyes left earlier in the season? Or if Kenwright sold us off... to who ffs?

The biggest gripe I have with the lack of signings in this transfer window is that inevitably, further down the line when we lose players to injury/suspension and our form drops off, Moyes will be issuing the standard, much used "we need more bodies, our squad is paper-thin" bullshit.

How often, since he’s taken over, havn’t we heard this shit being spouted?

Clearly, we don’t have a pot to piss in, so you can’t blame Moyes for that. But does this guy not learn? The same shit happens season after season.

For those above hoping for more of the youngsters getting game time, don’t worry, it inevitably will happen. Yak aside, we’ve been lucky none of our main players havn’t been out long-term. However, this could change in an instant.

Bit dissappointed that Moyes hasn’t realised and rectified the striker situation as far back as July/August. With only 4 strikers, 2 of which are extremely injury prone, that leaves Yak and Vic. Sure, he could not have anticipated Yak missing the whole season, but surely he should have legislated for the chance of him being injured at least some of the time. If this was to coincide with Vaughn and Saha also being out, then that would have left only Vic. Whic is exactly what has happened.

Fred from Lyon anyone?

Great peice Tony....what? This isn’t a Tony Marsh article?

Michael, I am going to have to lock horns with you. I don’t think Moyes is perfect, he most definitely has his faults, the main criticisms being inconsistency and cup performance, but he is as good as we are going to get.

You say it is not all about resources but in today’s game it quite simply is. You slight Moyes for failing to kick on, but it is nigh on impossible to kick on from a position that you have utterly strained every sinew to get to. And let’s not forget, it was Moyes who led us to a position where we are able to kick on from. Not many other managers in the league can look down on so many other teams.

It is obvious, and I am sure any twat with an Excel spreadsheet can demonstrate, that we have gone as far as we can go under the current economic regime that is in place at Goodison.

There is one way to compete with the big four and that is procur the services of better players. There are two ways to do this. The first is to buy better players than the opposition - easy in principle, but fucking nigh on impossible in practice with our limited resources. The second is to sign and then nuture better players than the opposition - easy in principle but fucking nigh on impossible in practice with our limited resources. Why? Because, take Man United for example; they have full time, paid employee scouts in Brazil, in Argentina, in the Balkans, in Africa etc, etc. And it isn’t just United. Every fucking big club in Europe does the same.

So what chance have we got?

What do you want Moyes to do?

There isn’t a level playing field and no amount of tactics, motivation, fitness coaching or psychological preparation can undo it.

If you think it is so easy then name one man in world football who we could pragmatically employ, who is able to move Everton forward from where we are?

Moyes isn’t without faults, but I would rather have him at the helm than any replacement that you may propose.

What fucks my head up is Moyes has stated the two players he was after, they're not going to come off. So it looks like we'll have to go with what we have. My thinking is why was he only looking at two players, when mickey mouse clubs like fucking Wigan, Pompey, even West Ham who are on the verge of extinction can put £4 or 5 million bids and on occassions sign the players. Kenwright is a load of shite.

Anthony Dyer: you said

"in relation to Moyes, I have to agree with Michael, the summer should have been used in full. Not on chasing players we couldn?t afford but in adopting new methods and trying out free-kicks, improving ball skills etc."

Do you really think he was chasing after Moutinho and leaving the players to train themselves? That is as ridiculous a comment as i’ve ever read on here. There are some serious lunatics amongst our support.

Actually, your whole post is a load of crap. Why did you even bother?

Calm down James! It’s only an opinion, there’s absolutely no need to question my sanity. If you disagree fine if you don’t that’s also fine.
Some people just take this whole thing far too seriously.
You’ll be pleased to know that come April I’m getting shut of my broadband so you won’t have to read any more of my crazy posts. Hope that sets your mind at rest..

I think its a disgrace kenwright runs this club like a fucking bowling green, he should be chased out of the place but instead hes got us all arguing over going to Kirkby. I believe moyes is largely doing a great job with limited resorces I just wish hed call it like it is as he owes Mr Kenwright nothing.

Nick Armitage makes a great point with the statment ’name one man in world football who we could pragmatically employ, who is able to move Everton forward from where we are?’


In the analysis posted in both this artical and the preceeding comments not one moyes knocker could answer this question. lets face it no one with a brain would try.

The truth is for whatever his faults (and i agree he is far from perfect) if we lost Moyes we would be fighting a relegation fight within 6 months and all the analysis into the terbulant summer, contract rangles, lack of funds and the poor start would be completely academic. That is the reality of Evertons Resources and the esteem of the manager.

I agree everyone has a right to an opinion but sometimes the negativity seems to selectivley forget the dark days and disregard whats has been achieved by focusing on what hasnt.

Iprefer to look to what can still be achieved.

To present a balanced view tho i do share the frustration in the lack of transfer activity. As i said for all moyes atributes he does have faults, i am worried that mistakes made in the summer are being repeated now. Its all well and good saying the club has moved on but fatigue or injury will get the better of our team if we dont add numbers. At the moment prime targets have been missed again so lets not set our sights outside our price range. There are plenty of honest pro’s who would jump at the chance to come in. i dont remember anyone major competition when we brought in the likes of Campbell or Carsely. I am not trying to lack ambition but if we sit back and say we cant add to the quality we are asking our 1st team to pretty much play every minute of every match. This just isnt realistic. Loans are no risk deals. Even if they just allow a half hour rest for our better players at the end of the game it will be worth it. Regardless if i am honest we wont bring anyone in. If the momentus is too be maintained we will prob have to rely in luck with injuries from now til the end of the season

Michael Kenrick-
TY for your response.

Seems with Tiny Tim going down tonight all those screaming about depth of squad, coupled with how the hell do the other clubs do it, have a point.

Seriously, what will we do without him? It’s a major, major blow if he’s out.

The injuries are just brutal. We have to bring in someone if Tim’s gone.

Thanks again MK

Anthony - that wasn’t an opinion, that was a claim and a ludicrous one at that. The man is known for being so meticulous in training and preparation that to just come out with that is naive and silly.

Sorry Mr McGlone I stand corrected Not having a degree in English Language I perhaps should have been more selective in the way I phrased the piece. But it was David Moyes himself who said the players were not ready to win PL games at the start of the season. Seeing how the team on far too many occasions have great difficulty in playing simple passes , it did look as if they neglected to perfect the basic elements of football , i.e. passing and control. I suppose that being Naive and silly is progress from being labelled as a lunatic.
Are you related to Ciarán McGlone, who I once accidentally mis-named?

Just back from the game and feeling more dejected than I ought to be after a bloody good performance by our lads. However, my mood has not been improved by the news on several sites that David Moyes "feels it very unlikely that we shall now bring in the loan players we have been chasing".

Whilst I have every faith in our manager, I cannot believe that he does not see the sheer necessity of signing re-inforcements when our squad is down to 17 players at most. Whilst money is tight, the Club can't possibly be so destitute that it can't afford a proper-sized squad or the manager so blase that he can't be arsed to use the window as effectively as his competitors. Tell me Moyes is kidding,please!

In the words of one Gordon Brown PM, I think Everton are well placed to survive the turbulent economic downturn......hahahaha. It is a matter of both resouces and resourcefulness. Everton under David Moyes and Bill Kenwrong don’t have anything - they flatter to deceive - again. If Moyes left EFC may well be relegated - but that would be a more realistic position for them to be in. What has happened over the last seven years is the occasional sticking plaster, which naturally, in the end, comes off.

Good analygy Stephen.

I agree that it isnt just about resources - Spurs and Newcastle show that. Given time a good manager without resources will generally outperform a bad manager with resources. However, a good manager with resources will definitely outperform a good manager without resources.

There is no team above us with less resources (and several below us with more) - suggests Moyes is doing a decent job.

The top 4 all have decent managers (however much of a tit fsw may be). Unfortunately Villa now have an excellent manager with resources pushing us down to 6th. I fully expect next season that one or both of City and Spurs will also move above us as they also have decent managers with resources.

Moyes isnt perfect, he makes mistakes but its delusional to think that at the very top level resources dont matter. Lets face it, if Moyes was suddenly given 50 mill we’d have higher expectations - why? becuase he’d be able to buy better players

"Moyes isnt perfect, he makes mistakes but its delusional to think that at the very top level resources dont matter. Lets face it, if Moyes was suddenly given 50 mill we?d have higher expectations - why? becuase he?d be able to buy better players"

1. we all make mistakes but Moyes just does not have what it takes to be a successful, winning manager. It’s tiresome reading that he’s trying his best. Whilst that may be so it’s not enough. This leads to...
2. even if Moyes had £50million there’s no guarantee he would buy and manage any more successfully. It does not follow that one leads to the other.

The issue is Moyes himself. Why can’t some fans see that. No matter what, it’s down to him, and he just doesn’t have it in my book. That is why the future is bleak. If this is the best that Everton can muster these days then look forward to years of mediocrity. I’m not inclined to do that. In all his time at Everton Moyes has won absolutely NOTHING. We’ve witnessed some dreadful football, uninspiring defeats to lower clubs, slumps worse than the economy and now a casualty list as long as my arm - what happens if Cahill is out for a while - no new players being brought in - what a fucking shambles. And yet Moyes is still held in high esteem by some - WHY OH WHY???? I don’t understand. Don’t people get angry anymore? Is this acceptable? Not to me.

Stephen - perhaps a lot of people hold Moyes in pretty high regard because over the last five years his club has been consistently the best outside the big four, on much lower resources than at least half a dozen challengers. This is a pretty objective reason to give him some respect.

Despite this, I am a bit more with some of the Moyes sceptics on whether he would do well if suddenly given £50M+ a la Mark Hughes. I think the jury must be out. There is plenty of evidence that Moyes works well with a certain type of committed, non prima donna player, and, as MK has pointed out, with a ’backs to the wall’ mentality.

The unfortunate truth is probably that Moyes and Everton would do a lot better if he could just buy a one or two more selected £10-15M players every year, and steadily built up performance that way. Unfortunately we are too skint even for that.

Stephen

I mentioned that Moyes makes mistakes to show that I dont blindly adore him. All human beings are made up of mix of strengths and weaknesses - I personally believe that the mix in Moyes makes a good Manager

I never said that success would follow with 50 mill - I said that our expectations would be higher with it - therefore stands to reason that they should be lower without it

For me the perfect case study is Martin O’Neill. Was he a mediocre manager at Leicester beause they only finished mid table and suddenly a good manager now with Villa? No - he’s an excellent manager full stop who now has more resources

Villa and Everton were basically level last season. Moyes said in the close season that we needed 20-30 mill to kick on to the next level. We didnt get it and havent. Villa did get it and have. Says it all

I believe O’Neill is a better manager than moyes but I dont believe he would be able to get us any higher up the table with the current resources - he might win us a few more points but I dont think it would be enough to bridge the gap



" I don?t understand. Don?t people get angry anymore? Is this acceptable? Not to me"

I do get angry, but not (currently) with Moyes, or indeed even Kenwright. I get angry with Sky/money men/"big 4" sycophantic media/scumbag footballers and everything football has become - I guess we just have different targets for our anger

Michael, I’m afraid the "logic" of saying "look at Man City and Tottenham -- money isn’t everything" is a very common error when looking at a data set.

Bob is 6 foot 9 inches tall. He is terrible at basketball. Therefore I conclude that height has nothing to do with success in basketball.

Obviously, while there are exceptions, we all know the average basketball player is tall. Just because not every tall person can play basketball (or occasionally someone short is a success) that doesn’t mean there is no correlation between height and success.

So it’s absurd to focus on Man City (after less than one year of spending mind) and Spurs and Newcastle "proving" that resources don’t matter when it’s a FACT that (aside from us once) for the majority of the past seasons the same four teams have made the Champions League and those four teams have very large resources.



MK [[ which obviously begs the question: what better resources did we have last season that gave us such an edge on this season? ]]

Again, this question is somewhat unfair. A) League-wise there isn’t a great difference between our current standing and last year. B) It doesn’t matter WHEN you win the points -- you can only look at this objectively at the end of the year. Focusing on CUP exits (one game puts us out) and a couple of points difference in the league (again, one or two games) means your using a tiny set of data (two or three games going differently than last season) to make a conclusion. It simply doesn’t work. I’m not trying to be offensive but just from a purely logical standpoint you can’t build an argument on such a small difference.

stephen stuart: [[ what happens if Cahill is out for a while - no new players being brought in - what a fucking shambles. And yet Moyes is still held in high esteem by some ]]

Stephen - Can you honestly not see the contradiction here? You’re putting the blame on Moyes (rather than resources) and then saying "if Cahill is out and we haven’t brought anyone in."

Is the not bringing anyone in resource related or Moyes being a bad manager? I think you know the answer.

Ken Buckley

great post mate. Fair, balanced and objective in your opinions.

Michael Kenrick

please note the above comment.

Again you wax lyrical about David Moyes and your consistent stance on his failings.

Like everyone he does have some failings. On some of his failings I can agree with some of thepoints you make. His body language and general demeanour during the early part of this season was not helping the team when they were struggling (particularly at home). This during the period of time when his contract was a distraction. That was poor and it clearly affected the players, the fans and also himself.

There is a basic weakness to your position that you have stated in this column. You make assumptions. And that is not arriving at an opinion based on fact. You assume matters that you cannot possibly know for certain or even have good reason to believe - it is just your opinion.
In doing this you are unfair and just wrong.

Your theory about resources is a bit puzzling in that if a game of football does’nt go ideally (in your eyes) then it is just the Managers fault. He is to blame.
So your view is that if Everton don’t win - it is David Moyes fault for not effectively using/preparing/setting out the resources at his disposal?

What nonsense

Let me expand - 1 of the things we all detest about the RS and Benitez in particular is that they never ever give their opposition credit for how they perform (unless they have a chance to patronise when they have eventually won).

There are so many variables that are factors in how a game of football proceeds.
Referees - eg Clattenburg
Player errors - eg Jags backpass against Villa
Injuries
Individual bits of brilliance

But also most importantly how the opposition play - that is always a major factor. Sometimes if the other team plays better they win and we lose - its football. Taking that further when Liverpool lose or draw at home again - Hull. The opposition played great went 2 up and ended up after 2 awful decisions with a 2-2 draw. After the game we heard from the RS - "we were shit" "Rafa has lost it" "We missed chances" "We did’nt do this or that" - Not a mention that Hull played well and scored 2 good goals. The focus is always on what their team did or did’nt do. That is blinkered.
And that is what you are saying about Everton - if we don’t win - or if we don’t play with enough style - you blame David Moyes and don’t consider the many other factors involved.

Why can’t you just come out and say that you are biased against the man. You are plainly Anti Moyes in my view.

I share Ken Buckleys stance - balanced - personally I like him enough to voice my support. I also acknowledge his shortcomings when I think this is justified. You just continue to snipe away.

Tony Marsh makes a fair point when he says he has his opinion and voices it and that he won’t accept BS if that is what he thinks. He usually does so in a negative way but so be it. But you continue to go well beyond that with your assumptions.

Is it controversy for the sake of it?

Damien ? I was using your comments as examples as they are repeated so much by others it?s boring ? for some, no matter what, Moyes will be the hero.

He?s not for me. I see his ability and more so, see his limits within whatever resources are available. He continues to make the same mistakes. Everton end up playing the most unattractive football ? I would really like to know if they hold the record for playing the most time in their own half ? this is not attacking football. The bottom line is I DO NOT LIKE MOYES WAY OF PLAYING FOOTBALL. No one except him is going to change my mind ? and he?s not going to do that ? he doesn?t have what it takes.

Paul Joy, "Controversy for the sake of it?" ? a number of people have responded to my posts recently with this put-down... Oh that I was so clever, to construct a empassioned and heartfelt "op-ed" piece (as the Yanks call them) which was entirely a wind-up.

You respect "balance and objectivity" in Ken’s writting. I enjoy his posts too, but I sense in him some of the same frustrations that I feel when watching the team. The difference I suspect you see is in the way he expresses them, his unique writing style, which is admirably brief, complimented by a sprinkling of "positive" plaudits that provide the "balance" you seek.

I’m not that struck on providing balance. If there is an assessment to be made, and if there’s enough substantiating inference that can be interpreted to support it, then I’m happy to explore it ? especially if it helps me understand some of the more puzzling episodes in our recent past. You call those "assumptions" ? another convenient put-down.

Your focus is on the factors affecting why particular games don’t go our way. I was really stepping back a little more to look at why we are where we are now, which I believe is rooted in why we failed to kick on after the good spell we had last season. I’m more interested in why the same group of players is performing a lot better now than it was in a crucial period at the beginning of the season. So I don’t think we’re actually looking at the same things. And I firmly believe the manager has responsibility for the overall level of performance, after factoring in the other variable you list.

Take "Why did Moyes sulk all summer long?" ? Was it because there was no money for new players? ? a belief firmly held by perhaps 80% of Evertonians... yet Ross, Wyness and Kenwright insisted otherwise. Or was it because Moyes was actively looking for a new postion? To me, that "assumption" (it’s actually a lot more than an assumption because Moyes admitted as much) would explain to me far more about his dreadful loss of focus and abrogation of responsibliltes to Everton FC throughout the summer until his new contract was agreed that by inference was hugely responsible for the horrendous start to the season.

If "balance" involves offering up some other explanation, go right ahead... but I know which one I find the most convincing. That it casts Moyes in a rather dim light is not my doing ? he’s the one who admitted to actively looking for another job!

Michael Kenrick

You talk of put downs!!!!

For goodness sake that is a bit rich coming from you given your response.

I make criticism of your standpoint and obviously I don?t agree with all you say. I believe I did so in a reasonable way that I also believe to be constructive. Fair in my own way - you may not agree.

I will not make any assumptions about you based on your responses to me. But the above response drips with unpleasantness as does some of your phraseology when you refer to David Moyes.

Fine by me if that is what you wish to do.
For my part I am just a 54-year-old grandfather who follows his beloved blues home,away,europe and I went to my 1st match in 1963. I am mature, balanced (you know I love that word), reasonable and fair.

I can debate and accept fully that I am wrong on occasion provided you can show me the factually based argument you make.

You have not done that here and I stand by my views.

I won?t go away or shut up if I think what you or anyone else is saying is unfair or BS and nor will I accept BS from EFC either.

I will say my piece whether I am in a minority of 1 or not. Freedom of speech I believe.

I started writing a rant but in the end thought I'd scrap it as I'm sure I'd be instantly shouted down by Mr Kenrick and other self-appointed "true football fans" who label those who appreciate what Moyes is doing as "blathering babies & general interest observers" like they've got some godlike sagacity and foresight that us lesser mortals don't. A few things Mr Kenrick....

(1) We don't have any money.... our owner is not a billionaire, we aren't in the Champions League but we are in a global recession. How do we attract the type of quality players we need to improve the squad (which in January is nigh on fucking impossible) without sending our club bankrupt or getting 2-3 more AvdMs? Perhaps in your infinite wisdom you can find a way.

2) You suggest Moyes should have been giving the younger players more experience... which games this year (bar Sunderland) have we had the luxury of such a comfortable lead that we could gamble results/points on "giving youngsters more OJT." If you had your way, our youngsters would have the experience to battle back out of the Coca Cola Championship because we didn't earn enough bloody points to stay in the Premier League.

3) Of course our last few games have been more defense minded... we?ve been playing top 4 teams without any available strikers FFS. The fact we have gained points at all is testament to the team spirit within the camp which even you would have to agree has been part-engendered by Moyes.

4) You seem to suggest that Moyes was wholly responsible for the bad start to the season due to his contract dithering, poor attention to detail and cluelessness about substitutions and lack of tactical nous. You are just another "apologist" for pampered and overpaid Premier League players who allow managers to be blamed for their poor performances. Once the players are on that pitch, the result is 95% down to their endeavours and at the start of the season they were SHITE. Likewise the recent good results are not completely down to Moyes but mostly due to the increase in endevaour by the uninjured playing staff.

In my humble opinion, as an Everton fan for over 30 years, Moyes has done a good job in taking an aging squad stuck in the lower reaches of the Premier League and in 7 years has created a stable unit, regularly finishing in the top 6 of a tough league with a very low net spend. I believe that is an achievement and we have unarguably made progress as a team and as a club during that time.

I used to enjoy this website for its unbiased coverage of all matters Toffee and its reasoned, measured debate. Now, I find the sustained negatively, especially against the current manager, as nothing short of head-wrecking.

I think you're article was largely bullshit, Mr Kenrick, and that for the executive editor of this website you show a remarkable loss of memory. Pan back a few short years if you will. Gazza, Ginola, Alexandersson, Walter Smith, Selling Big Dunc to the Geordies to pay the wage bill and a back four with a combined age of near 150.

Good times eh Mr Kenrick. I wish we could get rid of this useless bastard of a manager so we could get back there.

Paul, "... drips with unpleasantness? ... funny, that pretty much sums up my gut reaction to (I think I?m correct in this) ALL of your posts on the site.

I really tried my best to construct a reasonable and non-abusive response that looked into what you had labelled as "assumptions". I can understand you don?t accept that, and that it?s probably best we just agree to disagree because, you, a sensitive 54-year-old grandfather, don?t like your views to be questioned. So be it.

Michael
When someone says "Let's agree to disagree" it means only one thing ? shut the fuck up. The phrase you use is just a polite way of saying it. You are the editor, so it is up to you what you do.

You can also check out the posts I make on this site ? your riposte is neither accurate nor justified. But hey who cares.

I am not sensitive (another assumption on your part) and I am more than prepared to admit when I am wrong and have anyone question and disagree with me.

I have already said I am not going away. Knowing that you view so much if not all of the posts on this site you also know I am not alone in opposing certain views you hold ? you will have to live with it.

Have a pleasant weekend ? I am off to OT.

Paul, again, you?re wrong... What I was saying is this: by my reading of the tone of your responses, you have a pre-determined position to dismiss what I am putting forth. I can accept that. It means there is no point in me wasting any more time debating it with you. It does not mean "shut the fuck up". If anything, I?m the one that?s shutting up. Trust me, if that?s what I wanted to say, I would have said it.

Have a nice time at OT.