COLUMNIST JOE JENNINGS

Tony & Leon...

By Joe Jennings :  11/04/2009 :  Comments (49) :

They say that it?s tough to ever beat the Bullens Road boo-boys.

James Beattie and Simon Davies are testament to that. At times during this rollercoaster of a season, the Bullens have been looking to induct a new member of what is an ever-growing society, one which includes Stephen Hughes, Graham Stuart and of course, Gary Naysmith. The initiation tends to be endless levels of abuse throughout Goodison games.

This is where local lads Hibbert and Osman come to the fore.

Everton have their former scout, Arthur Stephens, to thank for plucking what was one of Merseyside?s most talented young midfielders in Osman from Oldham Athletic at the tender age of 10. Osman ? who was a Liverpool season-ticket holder in the Kop with his Dad at the time ? took little time to immerse himself into Everton.

"A couple of my friends were at this club and once I arrived I fell in love with it."

His love for Everton, though, almost broke his heart, as a tackle against Blackburn Rovers in the first-leg of the 1998 FA Youth Cup Final looked set to torpedo any Premier League ambitions he most definitely harboured. The tackle to his knee would result in a perennial five-year struggle to work his way into the Everton first eleven.

Osman could have been forgiven for thinking it was not to be; it would have been easier to throw in the towel and settle for lower-league standing. But he didn?t.

Instead, the mercurial midget was sent out to Carlisle United, then struggling for survival in Division 2, to ply his trade. It was certainly an education. But it was to be at Pride Park with Derby, following on from sporadic bench appearances at Everton which included the only penalty miss at the Riverside Stadium that sent the Blues crashing out of the League Cup at the Fourth Round stage, that Osman would showcase his undoubted ingenuity as a footballer.

While the club he loved was scrapping for points to stay alive in the biggest league in the world, Leon was weaving his magic in the First Division. Suffice to say, many Derby fans wish he would never have left.

But it wasn?t far from Derby that Osman?s Everton career took off. Wolves were as good as down, and with Everton having already secured safety with some games to spare, the opportunity arose for Osman to leave a mark on the first-team. Inside two minutes, he certainly achieved that. Ducking down from a Tomasz Radzinski cross, Osman guided his header beyond Jones. The local lad who was too small, too weak and too slow to ever do justice on the Premier League stage couldn?t hide his delight.

For Hibbert, the story was a little different. Although he himself was a member of the 1998 Youth Cup winning side, nothing was really expected from the Huyton-born full back. Tony?s baptism of fire in Blue came down at Upton Park back in March 2001, when an Unsworth penalty and a Niclas Alexandersson strike ensured victory. Tony was certainly not bedded in cosily though, having been scythed down by Psycho Stuart Pearce, which earned Everton the crucial penalty on the stroke of half-time.

Although Hibbert had offered a promising display, he was still deemed as a stop-gap while injuries ravaged Walter Smith?s squad. Little to get excited about.

I think it?s safe to say with all certainty that both players haven?t looked back since. Both have played their part in the Moyes revolution and continue to show why they are so integral to the Everton cause.

It baffles me, to put it politely, as to why BOTH Osman and Hibbert (and it would be foolish to suggest otherwise) continue to feel the wrath of certain fans. While our supporters certainly are hardcore and do offer unstinting levels of loyalty, for me at least, some just don?t understand the game. I?ll go as far to say as I resent the attitude some have towards the pair.

Is it because they?re both Scousers? As a Blue you understand your own club far better than those on the outside, the little abstract things that make a club tick, that are key components to its fabric and unique identity. Osman and Hibbert would fall under this category.

Do both suffer from the Rooney factor? That is, we have already had a very special home-grown talent, the one who had all our love, hope and dreams. Do we now, unintentionally at least, expect the same standard from all our other local lads? One thing we certainly do is burden them with the weight of expectation.

Yes, both have deficiencies, most footballers do, but what they bring to the side in positives far outweigh anything else.

Leon Osman is the most underrated footballer at the club. He is the closest thing we have to Mikel Arteta. Yes, my opinion may be out there, but in terms of ball control, skill, ingenuity, spatial awareness, and influence, he is indispensable. Everton look good when Leon Osman plays well. To suggest that is a coincidence is to underestimate Osman?s contribution. Yes, his form has dipped this season at times, but is that abnormal for a player who is STILL carrying a knee-injury which culminates in little or no training during the week? Osman still empties the tank when he pulls on the shirt though, injured or not. And that, I guess, is a measure of the man.

Tony Hibbert, defensively at least, compares favourably with any right back in Britain. Despite an endless amount of nose-bleeds when crossing the half-way line over the years, the penny seems to have finally dropped. He may, finally, have sussed it out. His attacking play has improved, his passing has improved, but most importantly, his confidence has improved. Even his nauseating ability to ball-watch has proved absent without leave.

Tony and Leon could have succumbed to the boos and taunts a long time ago, but both just continue to prove people wrong, unrelentingly, as they play their part in the Everton renaissance.

Both can be infuriating, both can make the wrong decision, but more often than not, both not only show real quality, but real pride in the Blue jersey.

Imagine Tony and Leon dancing around Wembley come late May, running together with the FA Cup. Isn?t that ? two local lads winning the greatest club cup competition on Earth with the team they love ? our idea of Blue heaven?

Reader Comments

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Rob Lloyd
1   Posted 11/04/2009 at 15:08:53

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Well constructed article, Joe; and hard to disagree. I?ve always been a fan of Osman, and believe he?s an integral part of the squad. I have to admit that in past seasons I?ve preferred to see Neville at right back instead of Hibbo (partly because I didn?t want to see him in midfield!) but this season both have proved me wrong.
Michael Coffey
2   Posted 11/04/2009 at 15:29:05

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Osman?s from Billinge.
Nick Murray
3   Posted 11/04/2009 at 15:51:04

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Good article, and love both players for exactly the reasons you mention.

Two great Evertonians who "get" the club.

Both have their weaknesses but they typify everything I love about our team at the moment. Graft, commitment, and a "team-first" attitude.

Nothing would please me more that to see Hibbo get his first ever goal at Wembley next week!
Michael Evans
4   Posted 11/04/2009 at 16:11:00

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Interesting read Joe. You?ve currently got 3 articles posted. That?s pretty prolific writing! Is it a record on this site?
Dennis Stevens
5   Posted 11/04/2009 at 16:28:54

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Super article, Joe ? I think it?s the best one you?ve submitted so far.
Connor Rohrer
6   Posted 11/04/2009 at 16:40:11

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Both are excellent players to have in the squad.
Adam Cunliffe
7   Posted 11/04/2009 at 16:47:46

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Tony Hibber is in my opinion our most underated/undervalued player.Although he leaves alot to be desired attacking wise, he has contained EVERY winger he has played against.Ronaldo, Riera, Babel and Malouda have all tried...and ultamately failed to get the better of our home grown Hibbo.

Leon Osman is the most frustrating player we have.Without doubt he has bags of potemtial and like Joe says, when he plays well Everton play well.he just doesnt play well enough when it matters.With all due respect to the likes of Hull and WBA, we need him to turn on the style against the likes of Liverpool and United.Unfortunately he usually plays the big games incognito.
Geoff Robinson
8   Posted 11/04/2009 at 16:44:04

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great article joe, I agree two great servants to the club who give 110% every time they cross the line.
How valid a thought would it be to think that Tony Hibbert is only really getting match fit after that illness that struck him down a couple of Pre seasons ago, along with all of his niggly injuries?
El-Ray Jackson
9   Posted 11/04/2009 at 17:16:50

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I think they should change the club name to Hibberton FC, just my opinion. Does anyone else agree?
Karl Masters
10   Posted 11/04/2009 at 17:19:49

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Both players have their limitations - Hibbert’s is going forward and Osman’s is physical as much as anything, especially against the Uber-athletes of many Premiership midfields.

However, the positives do outweigh the negatives - considerably. And besides all our players have at least one weakness, whether it be Howard with long range shots, Neville’s passing, Yobo’s concentration, Baines on crosses, Yak on workrate, Saha on fitness, Vaughan on judgement of tackles, Cahill on passing, Fellaini on tackling etc, etc, etc.

With Everton the sum is greater than the parts. Understand that and you’ll stop looking for individual deficiencies and look at what the team achieves - which has been a lot as it happens.
Ajay Gopal
11   Posted 11/04/2009 at 18:59:19

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Hear, hear, Karl Masters !

"With Everton the sum is greater than the parts" ? well said!

Should be the new club motto! Really ? I mean it!
Tom Owen
12   Posted 11/04/2009 at 19:31:24

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I have always been a good fan of these two. Must admit, Leon hasn?t been peforming too well this season but the prior, he has been one of our best players. As for Hibbert, he's had a few injuries ruining seasons and it takes time for him to get back to his good form. He's certainly done that now and his showing what a good right back he is.
Trevor Powell
13   Posted 11/04/2009 at 19:39:50

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So who would the detractors come up with? They could only come up with big money names to replace these two... perhaps they?ll mortgage thier houses etc to justify their boo-boy tactics. We have had enough wasters taking obscene wages through the nineties, Ginola, Gascgoine and their ilk. Osman and Hibbert are honest footballers, maybe not world beaters, but they give their best, Nil satis nisi optimum, goes for the player's attitude as well!
Jim Reardon
14   Posted 11/04/2009 at 19:45:29

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Both are Squad players who will win you nothing.

Can you hionestly class Osman with Arteta?

And as for Osman for England, you must be joking, imagine him on a big pitch... he can't get round Goodison!
Steve Hogan
15   Posted 11/04/2009 at 20:02:27

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The berating of ?homegrown? players over the years is nothing new, and extends to our cousins across the park.

I remain Carragher being crucified by the crowd when he first broke into the 1st team and was played in midfield.

Every club seems to have a scapegoat(s), which crowds love to jump on as soon as a pass goes astray.

Witness Lucas for the RS who seems to take the blame for everything including the recent earthquake in Italy!

However, concerning Hibbert, our first choice RB, no-one doubts his 100% commitment to the cause, but a full back who can?t jump to head a ball, can?t deliver a cross, and often goes AWOL when the ball is played over his head, would not be my first choice, but then I?m not the manager.

As for Ossie, again, a great pro, but so often goes missing for large periods of the game, particularly away from home.

If we had a large transfer budget for players in their position, would they be first choice then?
Tony Marsh
16   Posted 11/04/2009 at 20:47:33

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Both are crap and have been the most consistent crap players over the past 5 years. A few decent games seems to gloss over the dross for a lot of us but not me. Hibbert or Osman wouldn't get a look in at any other big club in this league. We are so easily pleased if we think these two jokers can carry us forward in any way, shape or form.
Dave Wilson
17   Posted 11/04/2009 at 18:36:41

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More good work, Joe.

It was always like this, mate, If there?s one single thing I could change about our club, it would be the treatment handed out by the fans to the local lads. Joe Royle, Peter Reid, Alan Harper, even the great Colin Harvey, all had their share of the "treatment". I never could understand it, is it jealousy because they are living the dream? Or do we some how feel they know what it means to us therefore they aren't entitled to bad games or dips in form.

The two players you're talking about along with Young Anichebe ? who was barely out of his teens ? took dog's abuse when we were playing some of the best teams in Europe a short while ago, even though it took a dodgy penalty at OT to finally see them off.

I sincerely hope Jack Rodwell doesn?t have to endure this "initiation".

Jay Harris
18   Posted 11/04/2009 at 15:59:38

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Joe, a well balanced and spot-on view on both players IMO.

Ossie is one of the few things I disagree with Tony Marsh on. I totally agree with you that when Ossie plays well he looks international class and he wears his EFC heart on his sleeve.

In the modern game we should be proud of all the players who pull on the Everton Jersey as there?s not a mercenary amongst them.
Rob Sawyer
19   Posted 11/04/2009 at 21:35:23

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So Hibbert and Osman are "Crap" and "Jokers" Tony? Nicely constrcted riposte to Joe?s article! Neither will set the world on fire but where would we have been without them these past 5 years when money has been tight? Osman, I?m sure, has been hampered by injuries that he has carried this season. Should he have been rested? ? probably... but that luxury is not always available.

Hibbert will always be limited going forward but is a fantastic defender. Dishing out stick to them for lack of application is warranted but for perceived deficiencies in their ability is counter-productive.

Tony Marsh
20   Posted 11/04/2009 at 22:03:17

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Rob, let's just agree to disagree. For what it's worth, my opinoin of Osman is this: Can't tackle, has no pace, rubbish in the air, slow at tracking back, gets knocked off the ball way to easily, gives away possesion far to often than is acceptable, doesn't show up in big games, scores only against minnows if at all, dissapears for entire games but still gets a shirt.... erm ? anything else I have missed?

Now you post his good points.
John Steadman
21   Posted 11/04/2009 at 22:17:55

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Tony, who scored the goal of the season for us last season? Who can you guarantee will have a least one shot at goal every game? (Admittedly he doesn?t score often enough, but usually vital goals.) Who never goes missing and will run through a brickwall for the club?

Get off his back and support the team;a team is 11 players of different styles and abilities blending together! Give me local lads over prima donnas every time. I've seen to many at Goodison over the years.

Mark Stone
22   Posted 11/04/2009 at 22:34:20

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Everton are a much better team with these two in it, than without.
Tony Marsh
23   Posted 11/04/2009 at 22:42:34

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John, I do support the team ? that's why I will be at Villa Park in the morning watching the BLUES while many a good Evertonian will still be lying in bed. The fact that I have a higher expectation standard than you for a player representing this club is testament to my greater understanding of what is required for this club we follow.

If you and others think Osman and Hibbert are good enough then it is no wonder we as a supporter base have such low expectation levels.

You have no idea of my connection and feelings towards EFC... Fans like you hold us back with your 'any old shite will do' attitude and you can take that to the bank.
Jim Hourigan
24   Posted 11/04/2009 at 22:53:38

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I don?t often agree with Tony but he?s spot on. Neither Osman nor Hibbert would get a look it at any other club in the top 8. Osman is anonymous in every game that matters, no pace, no strength, cannot influence games and only ever comes to the fore against poor teams. I?ve asked the question a dozen times without an answer - name one game against decent opposition in which he played well, or scored a goal or influenced the outcome?

Hibbert can?t pass water; he?s got pace and can put a decent tackle in but then you have to wonder why he needs to put in so many last-gasp tackles. For me, it?s because he has no football brain. He?s got no peripheral vision and is far too often caught out by balls over his shoulder or behind him and his pace gets him out of trouble. Does anyone think he can read a game? Watch his brain slowly tick over as he decides where to throw the ball.

And before you all start slagging me off for daring to criticise one of our players, remember one thing: good players come to the fore against good opposition ? anyone think Osman or Hibbert will significantly influence the matches against Villa and Man U?
Eric Myles
25   Posted 12/04/2009 at 02:56:21

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In the past I always feared the worst when I saw Hibbert at right back and Neville in midfield but no more. I think Hibbert has been our most improved player this season. He doesn?t like anyone getting past him and always forces the opposition player to the corner. Just look at the way he stifled Ronaldo and Torres. I dread not seeing his name on the teamsheet these days.
Kerry Frahm
26   Posted 12/04/2009 at 04:34:06

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Great piece Joe and a lot of fair comments in there... but Tony is right as well in saying that if we are to want Everton to reach the top then we should be praying that we unearth, either through purchase or home grown, players of greater ability than the two discussed here.

For me the greatest question mark over the two lads is consistency. As Trevor said "Osman and Hibbert are honest footballers, maybe not world beaters, but they give their best, Nil satis nisi optimum" and until someone else does come along that is all we continue to ask.

Derek Thomas
27   Posted 12/04/2009 at 06:12:51

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The Independent didn?t cut and paste large tracts of your piece did they Joe?
Joe Jennings
28   Posted 12/04/2009 at 07:18:09

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Derek, When you say large tracts, I guess you?re referring to the quote I used, which I thought gave the article depth. Or maybe the fact we got Leon from Oldham?

Nevertheless, it?s a shame you?ve felt the need to undermine my piece but if it pleases you, that?s ok mate.
Dick Fearon
29   Posted 12/04/2009 at 08:30:03

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Statement number one: In the Villa game Leon shows he really can do the business against a good side. He dominates the midfield, wins tackle after tackle, supplys cross after brilliant cross and fires unstoppable blockbusters from outside the box.

Statement number two: Ashley Cole, yet another of those so called superstars will be well and truly in Hibberts back pocket.

Based on past performances, guess which of the above statements is a figment of my imagination.

Terry Maddock
30   Posted 12/04/2009 at 08:40:02

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Best thing you have written, Joe... I view a lot of what you write as slightly over sentimental but maybe that's just the old cynic in me.

We all know they are not world beaters but Hibbert has been flawless this season. Osman.. inconsistent? But can make a huge difference when on blob.

Amazes me how Mr Marsh again determines himself the harbinger of all things knowledgeable about Everton ? I quote: "The fact that I have a higher expectation standard than you for a player representing this club is testament to my greater understanding of what is required for this club we follow."

This is the same person who predicted relegation for us during the transfer window fiasco in the summer... the same person who would have us replace David Moyes (with who?) and of course the same person who said that we will never progress under Moyes.

Obviously every ex-player, TV pundit and even SAF don't have a "greater understanding of what is required for this club we follow." because they all praise Moyes and this team to the rooftops. Nobody who plays for our team is "crap"; nobody who can score goals like Osman has in Europe and in the Premier League is "crap"; no defender who can keep quiet the recently voted best player in the world is "crap"... but what do I know... I have only been watching Everton since 1969? I will just sit back and watch my team today while Mr Marsh and co.. boo and scream at every stray pass or missed tackle.

Nil satis nisi optimum... should apply to the fans as well.

Ottar Gadid
31   Posted 12/04/2009 at 10:56:04

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Ossie is a decent player. He works and tries and doesn?t hide, and although he?ll never be Ballack or Essien (due to his size) or probably even Modric, I?d rather have him than Jenas or Reo-Coker or any other of those highly rated uselesses. The chap understands football, and I think he?s learned how to compensate for his weaknesses.

Hibbo, I love Hibbo. He has some of that Jagsy "No-one shall pass" ethic, and there?s hardly a winger out there getting past him. That he doesn?t flurry down the wing like Dani fucking Alves... well, we have some work before comparing to Barcelona...

And for those who say he wouldn?t fit in other top 8 teams: Who are actually better? Sagna surely, Bosingwa too, I guess, but I wouldn?t exchange him for the ugly, bad Neville brother, Dirk Kuyt, Carragher, Belletti, Ivanovic (though in the future who knows?), Luke Young, O?Shea, Arbeloa, Reo bloody Coker, Melchiot or whoever is right back for the Spammers. Not for Chimbonda or Hutton (with his Colombian flu) or Zokora either.

There aren?t many good right backs in the PL, but Hibbo is surely among the better ones.

Mike Owen
32   Posted 12/04/2009 at 11:24:22

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Osman is Trevor Steven-esque. Hibbert is a good, solid right-back. That we have local lads in the team, for me, enhances the integrity of Everton as a football club.
Karl Masters
33   Posted 12/04/2009 at 12:35:24

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Joe: Derek Thomas was paying you a compliment, not saying you riped off someone else’s article.

I’m sure your English teacher would deduct marks for failing to read the question properly!

Only joking :)
Joe Jennings
34   Posted 12/04/2009 at 12:59:25

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If so, I apologise.

It just seemed a tad underhand and snidey. I must learn to read the question! ;)
Dick Fearon
35   Posted 12/04/2009 at 14:56:58

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Half time at Villa, 9 men in blue are working their socks off. Another is occasionally poking his toe in. I’ll let you lot decide who the toe poker is.
Moyes must forsake his love child and get someone on in his place. Anyone with a bit of power or at least enthusiasm regardless of age or youth.
Gerry Western
36   Posted 12/04/2009 at 16:08:52

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If anyone needed any reminding of Osman?s contribution you need look no further than today's game. Totally anonymous, how on earth he managed to stay on the park is beyond me. He left Hibbert exposed all afternoon and did little else but piss about in the middle of the park. He?s nothing more than a passenger. How many times has he gone AWOL? I?m fast losing count.
James McCarthy
37   Posted 12/04/2009 at 16:21:00

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Full time and 2 points dropped. We played the entire game with only 10 men so that was a magnificent effort.

I definately saw Osman coming out of the tunnel but then he disappeared.
Paul Hardcastle
38   Posted 12/04/2009 at 18:08:08

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Got to agree with Gerry and James... for me, we were playing some absolutely brilliant football and I was loving it... but when it broke down... Guess Who? Little Ossie farting about with the ball. Maddening.
Ray Kelly
39   Posted 12/04/2009 at 18:06:11

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I haven't got a problem with Tony Hibbert but got to back the two earlier posters ? Osman was a waste of space today, as he is in most games... his contribution was nil and he should?ve been replaced by Rodwell at half time. God help us at Wembley if he's in the team... and Howard stunk as well.
Jim Hourigan
40   Posted 12/04/2009 at 18:45:25

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Having just returned from the match I cannot understand how anybody can continue to defend Osman ? totally anonymous, totally ineffective, a total waste of space. Hibbert also had a nightmare with Young giving him a real roasting, he looked unfit and was left for dead on far too many occasions, for Moyes to substitute him so early suggests he may not be 100%.

Overall I thought we played well and just found Carew too much of a handful, but a decent result none the less.

Michael Kidd
41   Posted 12/04/2009 at 19:40:23

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I think it?s harsh to call Hibbert and Osman crap, but they?re not class. Hibbert is fairly reliable defensively but he is prone to the odd bit of sleepwalking and diving in - the penalty he gave away in the Villa cup game is an example.

Osman is a player I would have in my squad but to start with him and Pienaar in the midfield means you are losing out in the physical contest and I think that we can only play one of them at a time. And I?d choose Pienaar every day.

Dick Fearon
42   Posted 12/04/2009 at 21:20:43

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Osman?s totally crap performance must have been part of a brilliant tactical ploy. Moyes told him to fly below the radar against Villa so that at Wembley he could come out with all guns blazing to scare the living shit out of Ferdinand and Vidic.

Other than that there is no possible reason why someone paid 30/40,000 quid per week to kick a ball can make such a totally useless job of it. Never in my life has one man caused me to delete so many expletives in one short letter.

Kase Chow
43   Posted 12/04/2009 at 23:44:24

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Hate to say it but Ossie does disappear against the bigger & better teams. He?s an excellent squad player that would be good to keep and play against bottom half teams and against weaker European teams + League Cup games.

Hibbert struggled today but generally he?s great defensively: I rate him.

I think the point of the post was that we are a financially poor club and we?ve unearthed 2 Premier League quality players that cost us nothing and give 100%

Whether you think they?re good enough or not, whilst they give us 100% they deserve cheers rather than boos and if we get the money to replace them, so much the better. But until then, support them and give them 100% as they do for us.
Joe McMahon
44   Posted 13/04/2009 at 01:36:19

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This is bizzare, when I mentioned Ossie was bloody shite & not worthy of the Premiership in December, I was slaughtered with abuse on this site, to the extent I?ve given over posting. Well I still stand by what I said!
Steve Flaherty
45   Posted 13/04/2009 at 01:30:52

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John Boden... you should hang your head in shame. To call one of our players a "cunt" is sickening. I woundn?t go so far as to suggest Tim Howard is a world class keeper, he can be very disappointing at times but shite keepers don?t keep the amount of clean sheets he?s kept. Shite comment from you more like.
Eric Myles
46   Posted 13/04/2009 at 02:46:08

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Spot on Kase Chow.

"Whether you think they?re good enough or not, whilst they give us 100% they deserve cheers rather than boos and if we get the money to replace them, so much the better. But until then, support them and give them 100% as they do for us."
John Martin
47   Posted 13/04/2009 at 13:12:58

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Osman is a decent squad player at best. Played in the middle against 75% of the Premier League and he will do a decent job for us. However, if we want to become a top 4 side, he must not be a regular. He isn't strong enough; it may be harsh and he ca'nt help his lack of size but I always judge midfielders on how they do against the top sides and he is always poor against them. Don't get me started on him as as a right midfielder when he deserts his postion to giving us no outlet on the right...
Nick Lewis
48   Posted 13/04/2009 at 14:37:17

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I feel compelled to defend Leon Osman from some of the abuse on here. Aside from Arteta, he is without a doubt our most naturally gifted footballer. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong.

Yes, he does have a habit of being caught in possession occasionally, but there?s a reason for this; he simply never plays an easy hoof forward to no-one in particular. Never. Ever. Unlike plenty others we?ve had over the years. He?s always looking to create. Looking for a telling ball. LOOKING TO PLAY FOOTBALL.

There again, Kevin Sheedy used to get stick from these clowns didn?t he? I?m old enough and ugly enough to remember that. The most naturally gifted player of our greatest team. (Go and have a look at Tricky?s goal against Bayern if you?re feeling inclined to disagree in any way with that view.) So Ossie shouldn?t worry, he?s in very, very good company.

Rich Grisdale
49   Posted 13/04/2009 at 19:05:31

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Calm down, Nick ? he isn't that good...

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