"The vast majority of posts on the forums want Moyes out."

What an utter crock of shit. Why make blatant lies part of your post? Forgetting about other forums for a moment and just dealing with this one (for obvious reasons), there is only one person I can name — out of literally hundreds who have posted since Saturday — who has called for Moyes to go: Charles King.

But your point is ridiculous. It's not a question of who else could be our manager and do a better job. It's more a question of why this supposedly fabulous manager (BotR; LMA MotS.. Blah, blah) is actually so poor, yet he's got tenure and he's going nowhere. He's supposedly "young and learning his trade..." STILL? Yet what exactly has he learned? How to beat the top four? Nope.

He's abysmally poor in some critical areas. But he's what we got. There simply ain't no other. There is no reason why we couldn't be doing better than we are. He's had them finish 4th already with a (supposedly) far poorer team, remember. Injures are no longer an excuse. The personal limitations and inadequacies of this manager are the problem. That's no excuse for you to propagate lies about this website.

We all know his limitations and achievements plus we can all trawl out the ’Moyes is great/ Moyes is shite’ arguments till we’re blue in the face.

He ain’t going anywhere.

Michael, so instead of supporting the manager, as "their simply ain’t no other", just get on his back, moan and generally attack.

And where are the blatant lies? Surely 95% of the posts since Saturday have, in part, called for Moyes’ sacking/resignation. That’s the reason I worte the message as I was sick to death of the criticism.

Tom, you probably are exaggerating the "Moyes out" level of posting since Saturday somewhat, but apart from that you are absolutely spot on. Moyes is by far the best manager we could hope to get in our financial situation and what’s more we don’t know how much better he could be and how much more he could achieve given better funding.

I won’t go on because any over lengthy, positve posts about Moyes tend to get editorially demolished in sarcasm and near abuse as yours was, but ten out of ten for a reasoned, rather than hysterical approach, to the subject.

The frustration of the derby defeat will mean there’s a few short tempered sods on here for a while Tom. Apart from "the majority" or "95%" nonsense, I also agree with what you’ve said.

It's only now (Tuesday morning) that I’m starting to feel more dissapointed that we’re 5 points away from Brum, than I am about the result on Saturday. I’d be amazed if we finished anywhere other than 8th or 9th.

Tom, I liked your post because its the first one I've read since the weekend with an air of calm and reason!

I think a lot of the hysterical posts on ToffeeWeb are understandable this weekend as they were written either within minutes, hours or a day following that dismal result. We all know it takes a few days to let those raw emotions dwindle and today, Tuesday, you will probably start to see reflection and constructive critism rather that outright rage!

I still believe Moyes is the best of a moderate bunch of managers we would have to choose from. As you say, it's pointless suggesting Hiddink et al they aint coming to Goodison. Moyes has shown tremendous loyalty over the 7 years and some of those seasons have produced a loaves and fishes miracle.

But like the editor, I also am at pains to understand why Moyes never seems to learn and move on from his mistakes, especially against the Sky 4. Saturday was a prime example.

The reason Evertonians and Webites get so utterly fucking fed up is because they see the performance against Man City and know that when required Everton really canplay some ’lovely stuff’ as Partridge once said. So why not play like that on a regular basis, ie ball on floor, pass to feet, use the wings, forget the hoofball, attack the opposition, show no mercy, dont be bullied kind of approach — IT FUCKING WORKS!!

The sky 4 rely on teams crapping themselves before a ball is kicked. They dont like it up ’em!! So why does Moyes revert to the nasty shit we witnessed on Saturday?! If we played like we had against City we would've beat the shite 3-0.

This is the fundamental problem with Moyes. He shows signs of brilliance but its never consistent. If he was always shit and Everton were always shit it would be far more acceptable!

So for me I'm in the Tom camp with the views of the editor — but as much as I revel in reading any posts of articles by our Mr Anthony Marsh — I don't have his utter hatred of Moysie!

Stupid,stupid question! Moyes is beyond peer as the the very best manager of Everton in Premier history. Just look at the record book and the stats therein.

He will be with us for the length of his contract — another three years — and thereafter until he deems otherwise. Feel privileged to be an Evertonian whilst our team is in his custody.

Agree with you Sam. A majority of teams just don’t turn up against the Sky 4. Actually on Sunday one of them — Arsenal — didn’t turn up against Chelsea, or at least were ineffective in their lightweight response to a strong, powerful team. A bit like us really. Once Carragher demolished Pienaar instead of challenging fairly for the ball, we were "done" and to be honest if I was up against thugs like him, Terry, Mikel, Vidic et al, I’d be checking out my personal injury insurance.

Tom, you seem to praise Moyes on one hand and criticise him on the other and use the arguement there is no one better for the job to justify your stance. Enjoy the cake.

Your question, "What do people really expect from Everton?", well at this point in time I expect us to give below average teams like the Red Shite a footballing lesson and nothing worse than draws against Chelski and Manure at home. This squad is almost as good as any and there is no excuse for the underperforming crap we witnessed on Saturday. Of course injuries took there toll in the first half of the season but that excuse has expired.

I take exception to your point about Moyes showing too much loyalty to certain players. In most cases it has been a case of no-one better to do the job and by the way, if Moyes had not been loyal to Tim Cahill, I would hate to think were we would be right now.

Tim Howard had a shocker with regards to letting the goal in so should Moyes drop him for that mistake and bring in Nash or remain loyal to him??

I dont want Moyes out either Tom but the content of your reasoning doesn’t add up.

Richard Dodd - Stop being thick in front of everyone.

Being better than Mike Walker and Walter Smith is hardly reason to shout from the roof tops, you’d do a better job than those two.

Joe Royle won us a trophy so he wasn’t better than him.

You are right about one thing though, Moyes is going nowhere while we are nice and cosy finishing in the top 10 (trophies or not), Kenwright will be happy because fans like you will be happy.

Back to the post, for the record, a very good up-and-coming manager is Sevilla’s Manuel Jiménez. He has built a Champs League team at little cost in a very short amount of time and is well connected in Spain.

One to keep an eye on.

The writing has been on the wall regards Moyes being a poor manager for a hell of a long time now.

The man has not a clue tactically. He has one way of doing things and if it doesn’t work we get beat. That is the reason he shows such reluctance with substitutes. Saturday was a classic example, Fellaini was injured so he just did like for like, Arteta on to do what Fellaini was there to do. No change of style, no tactical change, just exactly the same. Had Coleman have came on Saturday and Neville gone deep in the midfield I am convinced we would have scored!

Saturday was in many ways the last straw for Moyes with me. The worst Liverpool team for 50 years and we couldn’t even get a point. It was pitiful.

Regards other managers to replace Moyes there are too many to name on here! Manuel Jiminez is one I would definitely agree with. My choice however would be a man who has stated that he would fancy the English challnge - Laurent Blanc!

Tom, Well you asked for it "ABUSE"

I also agree with what you said Tom, and Howard.

I still think the short comings on Saturday were limitations of players, not the manager's... i.e. the recovering from injury issue to all three subs used, not being fully match fit like we’d probably want.

Tom you ask "What do people realistically expect from Everton?"

It’s a fair question.

Well ’realistically’ I expected us to beat Stoke at home.

I also expected us to beat Wolves at home.

I expected us to beat Birmingham at home (which we would have done EASILY...had we continued playing as we did in the first 20 mins).

And I expected to get at least a point from Hull away.

(had we done, we’d now be on 39-40 points and only a couple of points or so off 5th).

Oh and I expected us to beat Birmingham at home in the cup.

I don’t blame Moyes for everything that goes wrong.

I understand there are problems with finance for buying players - that’s not his fault.

And our injuries (I’m fairly sure ) couldn’t have been his fault

However, that we didn’t get what we wanted from the specific games mentioned - I DO blame Moyes.

In my view, Moyes is not the best man for the job. His has been a reign of missed opportunity. He has had decent amounts to spend in comparison with his predecessors.

We have played good foootball very few times in his tenure. It seems to me that some Evertonians are grateful to be in the Premier League and we have still flirted with relegation under his management.

On Saturday, we were totally devoid of guile and creativity, a trademark of his coaching style. I think he could advance his career better at Celtic.

Richard, you are often seen on this site as the antithesis of Tony Marsh. Frankly, your comment above makes Tony seem like the voice of reason.

I totally agree Tom. Moyes has to a certain extent made a miracle of our team. Look what he has, the team and finances and what he's built now? We're not winning trophies but that's something I most definitely think our team is capable of. We have a squad now which, given a bit of luck (no injuries etc), could really challenge the top 4. And that's based on the quality in the team, which has been built by none other than David Moyes!

Totally agree 100% with the guy who posted.

In Defence of the him as well, I have seen far more than one person calling for Moyes's head since Saturday.

Yet another issue that polarises Evertonians. The reality is that Moyes does some things well & is quite effective doing a difficult job; however, he certainly has notable flaws & failings. I’m not so sure we couldn’t replace with a manager who could be as effective in the role — the big question is whether we could afford one who would do even better. Anyway, for me next season is the decisive one — if he delivers the Title then I’ll consider him a success!

Eva Tunne finally cracked.

"It’s a disaster!" she screamed "and it’s ALL your fault!"

David, his blood rising, fixed her with his famous stare.

"Av made mistakes hen, there’s nae doot aboot it, but yer cannae blame me fae injur...."

"Stop, no more excuses, just....STOP!" she begged

David suddenly took Eva in his strong arms and as he did, her resistance vanished in an instant.

She felt her lips drawn to his, as if she were being moved by some powerful invisible magnet.

As they kissed she felt a surge of electricity and then a feeling like hot melted butter coursing through her veins.

She was his forever and.....she always would be




From ’The Boss’ by Richard Dodd (Mills and Boon)

With Moyes, he is undisputedly a decent man who has provided stability achieved 4th spot, European football and an FA Cup Final appearance, the lack of competition throughout football, the financial fear of relegation means he is a success for the majority of pundits and fans.

As an Evertonian brought up on the magic of the club's greatness, I just can’t excited by it. When my dad took me in the early 60s we would walk across Queens Drive, through the terraced streets, the great blue family growing about us. As we neared, I’d stretch my tiny body to its full height, bounce up and down, strain my eyes until the great place appeared.... Goodison.

The club was a representation of hope, spine-tingling excitement, awe, enjoyment... sure we lost but the name of Everton stood not just for winning but for class and style and how the reds hated being reminded of it. From being proud founder members of the league, through ground changes, Championships, FA Cup triumphs, Dixie... the club just took on all comers and mostly won. When you walked toward the ground, this was in the air you breathed.

You can’t unlearn this stuff; you can consign it to history (as I detect many are doing) but who would inflict what is presently on offer to their sons and daughters without reference to this and other glories?

Many will say "different times, different game, different problems..." I just don’t agree. I have cited Shankly, Clough, Busby, Ferguson (Aberdeen) before as examples and I’m going to add Mourinho at Porto, there will always be someone who will take adversity by the scruff of the neck and do the improbable, Moyes’s tenure has shown him incapable of what is really needed at this great club; the idea that, in the world of football, no-one else is available/affordable is appeasement.

I’m a big fan of Moyes but I’m starting to question him a bit. How many times does he want to go away to the big 4 and park the bus? How many attempts does he need to realise that strategy isn’t working? Why can’t we go to those places and have a go once in a while?

Roy Hodgson would be a good alternative in my view.

Sorry Charles, but the counter to your argument is contained within your last paragraph. Shankly, Clough, Ferguson (at Aberdeen) and Mourinho (at Porto). That’s four examples over the last 50 years which shows how rare such managers are. (I’ve excluded Busby on the basis that however good a Manager he was, success at United can hardly be placed in the exceptional category.)

I believe Moyes is close, very close at times, and maybe he’ll never do a "Porto" at Everton, but then none of the others had to contend with the current gap between the haves and the have-nots.


I too remember magical nights as a kid in the 60s but, like it or not, it’s a different world now.

A lot of names being thrown at anyone who says anything about Moyes at the moment.

From "apologists" to being accused of "appeasement".

Then something as crass as suggesting Richard Dodd’s wrote a Mills and Boon book.

I’m supporting the manager regardless, have had the "apologist" tag thrown at me before, but the fact remains:

Out of Mark Hughes, Roy Hodgson, and a number of other names, David Moyes remains the only manager — on a shoe string — to have cracked the Champions League places in 5 years.

And did so having lost his "star player". Equally, consectutive semi-final and final appearances in two cups, plus successive European qualification.

Roy Hodgson, and Mark Hughes haven’t acheived that other than through the use of the Intertoto cup.

And they haven’t had the spine of the team out for 12 months (Arteta, Jagielka, Yakubu), along with having to sell someone he didn’t wish to sell before he could buy.

Frankly I’m beginning to think some of those orcastrating something along the lines of a anti-Moyes campaign have completely lost their minds (and sense of perspective).

It's not been helped by the campaign of one website written by a load of snot nosed teenage know-it-alls, who’ve never managed to tidy their beds never mind a football team.

Its a sad fact that some, will use anything or anything to criticise - but considering some of the tumoil forced onto Moyes/the team this season, if you asked Moyes how he viewed this season he’d say its been unbelievably difficult due to things - forced on him.

And I still maintained, those "limitations" people keep quoting are the result of those things forced on him. Circumstance.

* Oh and I wasn’t referring to ToffeeWeb there.

Infact some of the opinions on here have some merit and yes I too would like to see some more of Coleman.

However, I realise the fact that Moyes as a manager has done something and continues to do something many managers haven’t done, and that indeed "glass ceilings" are indeed there to be broken.

And Everton have broken many a trend under Moyes — and that's without the resources given (in the middle of a bubble!) to some other clubs, and until the stadium is sorted we won’t fully address.

People on here to want dramatic change for the better, but in management gradual change is usually far more effective, and this "we don’t play football" for me doesn’t wash, because we play more football than when he took over, but we’re limited by the — footballers — we’ve been able to bring in with our funds.

The points been made and let's see if Neville and Disitin resist the long ball, because certainly I don’t think Moyes wants us to be playing that, looking at the likes of Arteta, Pienaar, Bily they aren’t players you’d expect to be brought in by a manager who wants to play hoof ball would you?

Mr Reid, your quickness at the keyboard appear to outweigh your brain mass by a considerable number of grams.

Have you got the first idea what "apologetics" is all about? It is a distinct form of writing not to be confused with the act of making an apology. An apologist presenst a reasoned argument for his / her point of view. Your quivering adolescent diatribe seems to mistake this for kiss ass "sorry but we’re right" stuff.

As to Ruane’s parody which you weakly criticise, which aspect of parody irritates you? The cleverness; the ability to sustain a different series of voices in the writing? Or the fact that its inner truth hurts you?

Every post Dodd had made convinces me he is in need of a level of professional help few if any on this board are qualified to give. We must hope he is not a present danger to members of the public in his locality.

You, on the other hand, appear to have over-estimated your ability to write, and knowledge of Everton past and present.

Your work is risible: D-. Resubmit it after an early bed time and considerably more thought about it.

Quite agree with Mike; the Mills & Boon parody was well conceived and genuinely funny. It made a change from the usual and often misspelt abuse all too common on Toffeeweb (just out of interest, when did the word ’losers’ become ’loosers’? That seems to be its spelling now on just about every message board I see, not just this one).

Mike Mclean, I didn’t realise I was required to write article level stuff, when commenting on an article.

I said it was crass, because the parody is ill-concieved and takes an unnecessary elitist mocking tone to someone who, as you say, is trying to make a defensive argument.

You know as well as I do that ad hominems are weak debating points, so if you’re claiming some moral sanctimonious high ground, why use ad hominems?

Adolescent my arse.

I did not give any estimate on my writing ability. Other than to state that an unnamed website populated by teenage dirtbags comparing Everton to "pussys" is of considerably lower ability, purely because such would be actually adolescent.

Oh and I was a straight A student many moons ago. Nothing but the best... and all that.

But back to the subject at hand. Seeing as the idea of apologetics is being introduced. Then fine. I’m a Moyes Apologist.

But I make absolutely no apology for it.

Oh and Mike. Yes kiss my ass "sorry but we’re right" kind of stuff.

Mark Reid - ad hominems THIS!

(grabs plums - thrusts hips)

http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

Nah you’re alright lad.