So, do points lost at that stage count as the ones that got you sent down? Yes, Nathan Blake's header did cross the line. But I'd also point to the fact that Gerry Taggart had fouled Southall so it should have been blown for a foul.

But it wasn't given. Just like the "goal" wasn't.

So did you find the figures you were looking for?

Ged #898, I've heard some on here suggest that maybe relegation wouldn't be a bad thing. I never engage with them, it's like mud wrestling with a pig. After a while you realise it's pointless, and the pig is probably enjoying it.

Something else struck me about your post. The first four teams you mention all had brand new stadiums built before they fell from grace - Coincidence ?

Many clubs have invested millions into new stadiums, but it would appear they have only been able to do it by going for the cheaper option on the pitch.

I`m not suggesting that building a stadium is the only reason for the demise of estabilished clubs ( poor leadership is the main reason) but the cost of building one shouldnt really be calculated by the price of the building alone

All of the clubs you mention (and some you dont) have one thing in common. They have all suffered for poor decisions made at boardroom level.

Managers like Clough have been able to reverse the trend, but down the years its becoming increasingly difficult for any club to get it right on the pitch if they havent got it right at the very top.

If we`d have been a little less fortunate in the nineties . .could we have recovered ?

There is something to be said about teams struggling to make a new home feel like, well, the old one. I think that was particularly true at St Mary's when they even got some witch doctor in to remove a curse (the Pompey builders claim it was all the Pompey shirts they buried in the foundations, but karma is a bitch).

Any new stadium has to be treated as a separate part of the club's business, which is where most fans will not see the point. Treated as a separate project, separately funded and managed, the money has to be ring-fenced (stop laughing at the back), like any other business taking on a major investment outside of its normal operations.

In the days of the commercially-driven Premier League, Everton needs a new stadium (either new location or redeveloped) as we simply can't compete. The alternative is to reduce our cost-base considerably to that of a Blackpool or Norwich, and accept our loss of status with it. Something we are inexorably being drawn towards.

In terms of how Everton get their hands on a shiny new stadium I honestly think that the only way we could do it at present is to sell players and then reduce what we spend on replacing them. Yes it would mean possibly going down the route of the clubs mentioned above that ended up getting relegated but I can't see anyone willing to hand us the cash required given our financial status at present. But putting the money away from player sales for the cost of a new stadium would mean not handing lumps of cash to the banks to keep them happy. And if you read the two KEIOC articles, we can barely manage our day to day finaces in a professional way.

Alternatively, you could get lucky the way Man City did with their new stadium. It got handed to them ready to use by the city council at a rental cost of I think 4m per year. A brand new stadium with the corporate boxes, fancy catering facilities, wheelchair and disability friendly, unobstructured views and toilet facitlies you would actully not be afraid to use. A club in ao outdated stadium that was going nowhere, in a city where they were overshadowed by their city rivals and with little or no chance of growth. A brand new state of the art stadium with all that goes with it and you suddenly get to change your appearance. You are now a club that's cheap to buy, has a good if not brilliant history, doesn't have a large debt and doesn't have the huge expense attached to it that a new stadium build will apply.

The only sensible solution I can see is to rebuild Goodison in manageable chunks ? something the current board are violently opposed to, it seems.

Jay all proper Everton fans 'remember correctly' that Nathan Blake fouled Neville Southall so it shouldn't have been a goal anyway, no matter what the media banged on about at the time.

It annoyed me at the time, I can't believe fellow blues are going with the mainstream version of history. Don't let yourself down lad.

Was reading Ruane's opinions in that new "Kit Bag" thread regarding how the Club might be promoted; emphasizing EFC's long tradition. Thought his ideas really good ones.

This would necessarily include keeping Goodison; a central and great idea. Don't need a new stadium. The Old Girl can be fixed up just fine at nowhere remotely near the cost of a new facility.

In ten years bk has added nothing to the business model in terms incremental revenue for the business outside of staying in the league.

Selling assets and increasing debt is a one way ticket to the work house, and this appear is his blue print.

It was fanpower that got rid of Walter who recommended Moyes instead of Kenwrights prefered choice of Gary Megson.

The gift fom the Gods you mention (Kings Dock) would have been funded by Paul Gregg if it wasnt for Kenwright's ego.

I might also add that Paul Gregg pledged to invest 15 million of his own money into playing funds if Kenwright stepped down as chairman which is how the sleight of hands that was FSF was put in place.

Do you remember that piece of Kenwright deceipt ( "The cheque will be in the bank in the morning").

Needless to say not a penny of that nor of Kenwright's own money has ever been seen at the club.

Your whole response seems to be based on the assumption that we keep our current owners. My whole point is that isn't an option any more.

Richard #988. Words fail me. You are most definitely a WUM. Every time you seem to be wavering in your support of Kim Jong Bill, you then come up with something like this. A revisionist of the lowest order - see the other mailbag item and get down to the Freshy before it closes for refurb. Someone was looking for you, he might have left a pint behind the bar for you.

I think that there is nothing we can currently do to imporve our finances at the club unless we pick one of the only two options that appear to be available. We either change the Board or assest strip the squad. The first option would mean the current board being willing to go and a new set of board members being willing to replace them and take on the mess they've left with. Even this will mean us waiting for a couple of years or seasons until things are brought back onto an even keel. There is no guarantee that any new board will have a huge pot of cash at their disposal to make any big changes in the short term such as clearing as lump off the club's debt of building a new stadium.

The second option of assest stripping the squad will only ever be a short term solution and will eventually come to a poor and negative end. It is an option but obviously not one that any fan would advocate unless the baliffs and or the administrators were physically at the front door.

However, I would hope that any serious owner would as part of their DD undertake a feasibility of what can be achieved at Goodison. I think most of that work has already been done, and I would hope they would call upon the authors to update and refine their work.

The requirements of the Premier League are huge. I love Goodison, and it was a modern icon and pioneering in so many ways. But the demands now are ridiculous, you need 50 seats for foreign journalists (i.e. printed media), before you even get onto broadcast media. These guys all expect to be wined and dined, etc, and Goodison just doesn't have all of that. I've mentioned elsewhere even the operational space required for players, officials, policing/crowd control, medical etc. is huge now.

At the risk of paraphrasing someone we all love, a £400m stadium wouldn't actually cost anything like that, depending on a number of factors, like who the new board are, their background businesses and what they can pull in, who the development partners are. A fully integrated plan with benefits for the local economy outside of matchday would, one hopes, attract a sympathetic ear from the planning authorities.

And I mean no disrespect to Mssrs Kenwright and Woods when I say a background in theatrics and computer games isn't going to pull many favours in, in that regard!

IMO the ONLY stadium solution is to rebuild GP gradually, something which should have been done over the last 15 years with the amount of money flowing into the Prem.

Multiple plans have been available for some time now showing how GP can be turned into State of the art.

Most clubs are finding that in the absence of grants which helped to fund a number of the previous developments,the commercial enabling (Except in Arsenal's case) just doent fund enough.

So unless you get a billionaire with an ego (Abramovic) or groundshare with the RS and LCC it is always going to be a pipedream even if we do get rid of the parasites who are running the club now..

I would be made up with either, but I fear stadium debates concerning Everton are a waste of time as long as this chairman remains at the helm.

After the Kirkby shambles, I think I would be happier to stay at GP in its current condition than to trust this Chairman to ever be involved in anything like this again.

I know you only submitted the opening post to change the subject and move away from battles about our chairman Jay, but sooner or later it always comes back to him.

We need him gone

I am fed up with all the frustration surrounding Kenwright ,BU and transfer speculation I thought we might have something else to debate.

Trust Doddy to bring it back to his hero!!

And we all took the bait.

I guess emotions and concerns are running high right now.

Never mind we can watch Jelly bag a couple against the Irish today.

Another option would be for the current board to make a rights issue. That would raise enough for a new stand which could provide long term benefits.

Returning the OP, I would say the period 1997-2002 was a historical low for the club. Comparisons with those relegated clubs therefore are abit misleading - we were at a low ebb and one would argue these clubs (Leeds aside) were at their historical high point.

As to Richard Dodd's assertion that BK deserves credit for stabilising the situation - I dont think so. What we have done in the last 10 years is rack up significant amounts of debt replacing a decrepit squad with one that is capable of challenging the big sides.

The problem we face is one of sustainability. To keep the wolves from the door, this very squad now faces being broken up, and where we will end up is anyone's guess.

As for the stadium issue, "ring-fencing" the financing of the stadium is extremely dangerous. It implies the club does not exercise complete ownership or control, and the costs can escalate.

If you look at the example of Coventry, they are paying crippling rents on their new stadium and this is putting off serious investment into the business: they need to re-negotiate with the landlords to reduce the cash burn on the football operations side.

Whether we renovate GP or move to a new ground, we need a solution which is sustainable and within the club's means. In our current financial situation, this means getting outside investment into the club. To do this, we need a clear and sustainable business plan, not a half-baked approach whereby we sell off the odd player every couple of seasons just to keep the banks happy.

I work with a Coventry fan who says that the Ricoh Arena (is it still called that?) is now a massive burden with the club having to pay £5m rent no matter what division they are in - gulp!

Someone mentioned renovating Goodison, has to be the only option if there is funding available.

And this attitude is why Kenwright gets away with murder. He has not "provided finance". He has invested zero pounds since 1999, beyond the price of his shares. The people he has brought in as directors have not provided one red cent of finance. They have turned an asset-rich business into a basket-case loaded with liabilities. And they are still disposing of assets - Baines or Fellaini will be next.