First off, I think it's important not to conflate the English national side and English Premier League clubs when it comes to this question because with the influx of foreign players to our domestic league, they are as far apart in terms of personnel as they've ever been, with foreign players making up the majority of the starting XIs of the biggest teams nowadays.

On that basis, an English team playing in the Champions League is likely to be much more complementary to a Continental opponent than was the case before the Premier League era.

[As case in point: of the eleven players who started the Champions League final for Chelsea last month, just four were English and even then Ryan Bertrand was a surprise starter who could quite easily have been replaced by Florent Malouda or Saloman Kalou. The Everton team that would, were it not for the Heysel ban, have competed in the 1986 European Cup was made up entirely of British-born players.]

The end result of this is probably something that was feared all along -- far from seeing homegrown players thrive under the influence of more technically gifted foreign players, they have seen their opportunities limited as more and more cheaper players from abroad have squeezed them out of Premier League squads.

Now, the game has changed a lot over the last 25 years or so and some might argue that English football's failure to adapt and evolve would have held them back anyway even were it not for the foreign influx.

Spain were serial under-achievers until 2008 and I don't think Portugal even qualified for the 1990, 1994 or 1998 World Cup Finals and look at them now. They've come on leaps and bounds while England have lagged badly.

As to why England performed so badly in South Africa and then in Ukraine? well you only had to watch the games. No pace, very little flair, an inability to keep the ball which, contrasted with Germany's ability to create space and move the ball at speed or Italy's patient build-up play and probing passes, just made the English style look anachronistic, ordinary and ineffective. Even accounting for the players who were forced to drop out through injury before the tournament, they didn't really stand a chance and a win on penalties over Italy would have papered over a lot of cracks.

I'd like to think that this new St George's Park centre will provide the foundation for an entirely new approach to the way English players play the game, but I don't hold out much hope that they can emulate what Germany did with its transformation from grass-roots on up. We'll have to wait and see.

Certainly the Germans have demonstrated over the past two tournaments that you don't necessarily have to go as far as copying Spain's slow, possession-based game and sacrifice everything that makes the Premier League the most exciting league in the world to play attractive, thrilling football.

It just needs a fundamental reexamination of the techniques and approaches that are taught to kids at a young age in how you play the game. Being able to string more than two passes together would help, too!

Zidane, Ronaldo ( both of them ), Maradona, Cryuff, Pele.. list goes on. Messi hasnt, as of yet, but I read Hodgson say today that the burden of pressure - not lack of fitness was why Rooney didnt produce. The names I mentioned above had the weight of their respective countries expectations on them, and they delivered the trophies, why cant our lads ? Or is it just, really, that they are not as good as we like to think ?

I thought he worked hard with little reward against Italy but he did look slow and unfit. If that overhead kick goes in two minutes from time, though, he's a national hero and all the failings get swept under the carpet for a few days!

For me, he excels in a United team that dominates its opposition playing the ball fast, on the deck, with players around him offering plenty of movement off the ball. There was almost none of that playing for England at Euro2012.

Don?t get me wrong. There?s no other country in the world I?d rather come from. True, I?ve spent the last 12 years in America, but in some respects that has only increased my affection for England and the Ciy of Liverpool, needless to say, in particular. As an academic, working on English history, I come back often for research trips, so it?s not as if I?ve not trodden on English soil only once in a while over the last decade or so.

Right now, sitting in a bar in Chicago, I?m longing to be in The White Star on Matthew Street, The Champion of the Thames in Cambridge, The Eagle in Clerkenwell, The Crows in Crosby (where I bought my first ever pint), The Mitre in York. Wish I could buy The Guardian every morning hot off the press and, quite frankly, take in English media in all its best forms (miles better).

And Liverpool, that wondrous gritty city that told Thatcher to fuck off and a bunch of us would cram into mini-vans to stand on the picket line to show solidarity with our miners. My point, crystal-clear, I hope: I am pleased as punch to come from England and to have been born and come of age in its greatest city.

But Engerland has come over my near five decades on this planet to represent most of what I don?t really like or don?t really care for about England (English footie): short-sighted, the sun never sets, and all that nationalism that at its worst borders on chauvinism/racism; middle-aged men sprawling on streets singing ? God love ?em ? Madness songs; misplaced loyalty ? ?you don?t like Ingerland you aint English are ya?; silly twats travelling 1000 miles with St George cozzie and armour; a small gang of assorted trainspotters who stand next to you in the groundbanging drums and blowing horns; crap footie; over-hyped and over=paid headless chickens.

This time: Young. Milner, Wellbeck, one or two others who were so faint they didn?t register, but not Rooney, the stuff levelled at him has been so silly; Woy Hodsgon, so uninspring, so clueless; putting defence first (sound familiar?); Sky, Southern footie.

Sorry, but I was sometimes on the verge of laughter watching that pathetic display against Italy, because (1) it?s not the team I care about (2) nationalist cockneys and little England Accrington Stanley and Chorley fans will be crying in their bottles of Budweiser, and then fighting each other, and (3) I?ve sat through the same old for all of my lifetime, and at some point repetition and ritually bleated expectations actually do become a little bit funny and also sad.

Watching embarrassing Engerland last Sabbath day and voicing similar sentiments, my US mates, in a bar not far from Michigan Avenue in downtown Chicago, called me unpatriotic. But that?s not true. I am.

After all, look how it's affecting Silva, Ballotelli, Matta, Torres, Nani, Meireles and how it affected Ronaldo, Alonso, Arbeloa, Fabregas etc at previous tournaments ....

The whole FA and England set up needs root to branch reform but that is far to bold for the likes of them to comprehend.

We have zero ball retention skill and the focus is to get the ball up field as quick as possible, regardless of any support available from midfield. When the ball is lost, it invites the opposition back onto us usually with the midfield camped deep in our half.

Our so-called reliance on the golden generation has not yielded anything. If they hadn't learned in over ten years, they won't now. It's time for new blood to be brought in and the old guard well and truly fucked off.

We've never ever had in numbers the technically gifted players that they have in Europe, S America and to an extent Africa. Is it that in football terms ' Englishmen can't jump ' and the foreigners are just 'better'. Or is our national game, even going back pre Prem, back to the 50s and 60s not based on that sort of game and thus the coaching is geared to ploughing through the rain and mud.

1. The EPL is vastly overrated and mostly full of foreigners on the creative side. Most English players who make up the numbers are, in general terms, just the hardworking hod carriers. So we do not have many gifted English players.

2. The players are so busy with their "Bling Bling" culture and who has got the latest Aston Martin that they do not feel obliged to put themselves out.

3. 6 of the England players came from the RS and look where they finished last season. The other major numbers came from Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd who all play different systems so trying to achieve unity of purpose with that lot, who are enemies for the majority of the year, is also a major problem.
4. The defensive long ball 4-4-2 system went out with the bow and arrow so was always going to be an embarrassment but Hodgson at least can do better in the future. That squad of players regrettably cannot.

The only way English football was ever able to compete in the past was to play 100 mph pace allied to Kamikaze tackling which is now virtually outlawed and regrettably we have not changed with the times.

We traded skill and technique for Ninety mile an hour high octaine action years ago. We enjoy big hits, we`d rather see a player put in the stand than watch a patient pasing game, we want to see our Goalies in action all afternoon, if it were up to us English/British we would still be allowing Nat Lofthouse challenges - Never mind the quality, feel . . .

We start earlier and earlier, We`ve all witnessed the bigger more athletic kids being singled out and chosen at the expense of the slighter, perhaps technically better lads.
Thousands of Malclom Allisons up and down the country, whose only qualification is they have a son in that age group, boosting their own ego`s by showing their boys how to "win".

It gets worse as they progress, the higher up the ladder these lads go, the more the emphasis on athletism. Coaches make their names by winning and if the talented little 12 year old cant keep up, he`s out.

People think our players cant pass . .of course they can pass. How many difficult passes do you see the Spaniards make ?
Its all about inteligent movement, giving the man on the ball 3/4 options, but when you have been conditioned to overcome skill with graft and power you will always work harder without the ball than you will with it.
How often do you see England instantly give back a ball they have chased for ten minutes ?
Why was Stephen Gerrard blowing out of his arse, when Pirlo was playing in a deck chair ? People like Scot parker will need a months total rest to recover.

As Lyndon says, our league/s are sprinkled with continental stardust, foriegners who have the skill and technique to compliment our work horses, but even they have to be up to it physically, The Decco`s, Veron`s, even the Bily`s will sit on the bench until they are eventually moved on.
We can`t support a league in which players like Adam Johnson, cant get a game, then be surprised when we crash at international level - BTW wonder how he felt watching the likes of Milner ?

I dont think we can ever have both, if we are ever going to be able to compete at the highest level internationally, we need to stop gearing our more promising lads towards "non stop action" domestic league/s.
We need to dig out these idiotic "winners" coaching 11 year olds, not to "do anything silly", punish these so called coaches who dont want to know "flashy little gits" - A mandatory five year jail term should do it - We need to start again from scratch.

Will we do it ? I dont think so, I think its a cultural thing, we cant wait for fuck all, everything has to be now. We are incident junkies.

I believe Sky would leave town and attendances would fall off a cliff if the patient pass and probe game played on the continent was ever introduced/re-introduced to England.

Personally and echoing the sentiments touched on above, I don't think we can entirely blame the influx of foreign players. If English players were good enough, more would feature. The problem is England and English players are not as technically developed as their international and continental counter-parts. We are a quarter final team at best (although I would suggest that a team who could have finished better than Ukraine would have seen us off). I have had the fortune of experiencing the Dutch and German games and have coached at youth level here for several years. Their emphasis is on performance and development, not results at youth level. Now I don't speak fluent German or any Dutch, but I would guess that the type of shouts from the side are slightly more constructive than the "get stuck in" and "get rid of it" (yes get rid of the ball you are supposed to retain possession with and give it back to the other team??) I am continuously subject to on Sunday mornings here! I dismay at our approach were winning the local district U-14 league is paramount, forget development of players. Subsequently, big powerful and speedy kids are chosen in order to win the game. Technically gifted but lesser physically developed ones get left out. As suggested above, a quick fix to satisfy the here and now. By the time they are 17, player A is no longer as physically advantaged amongst his peers and unable to use his previous attributes to win games but shock horror, he is not actually that good a footballer. Player B (technically gifted) long lost interest and doesn't play anymore. Unfortunately, we made the decision to stick with lots of player As years ago and that is now what we have. A fundamental change of philosophy and mind set is required and that will take a generation at least.

Rant over! Roll on August and come on you Blues!

There is always going to ve trouble when the team being picked includes Milner, Downing and Johnson.

I have my own strong views on the old guard which includes hoping NONE of them EVER play again. The only player I hope to see in the next international competition is Hart. I'm undecided about Rooney. He initially did well for Everton and took a while to settle in at Utd but he's not a team player. He plays for the team and will get everywhere - but at what expense to the other players? England looked more cohesive an together in the first two games - hell, the team had the guts to come back from behind in both in a manner I've not seen since Terry Butcher or Psycho! Rooney came back in and it all went to rat shit.

It could be argued about the level of opposition but to change a winning team? Come on! Being him on as a sun and make him EARN his place.

it's not so great when the star of the team is the goal keeper.

Because we have a footballing culture that believes our history entitles us to further success and makes us ?bigger? than our upstart rivals?

Because we have a footballing culture that prizes loyalty, physical prowess, blood and guts determination and hard work over subtlety, skill and creativity?

Because we have a footballing culture that has a tactical ignorance that permits idiots to believe that 4-4-2 is ?more attacking? than, say, 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1 because it?s got twice as many strikers?

And that?s just Everton. Much of English football is even worse.

I thought England were hyped up after tame victories over Norway, Hungary and the like. When we come up against a proper footballing team, our players resorted to giving the ball away too easily. We never learn.

The statistics from Sunday's game were astonishing:-

Statistically, England?s best passer was Joe Hart!!

In extra time, England's possession was 25%.

Their best passing combination throughout the entire match was Hart to Andy Carroll, a 60th-minute substitute. That long punt came off 15 times in total, which is more times than James Milner, with 13, passed it to anyone.

Italy had 815 passes compared with England's 320.

The shot count was 35-9.

Italy had 20 on target, one more than England managed in their four games.

Andrea Pirlo put together more passes, 117, than England's entire midfield quartet of Gerrard, Milner, Scott Parker and Ashley Young

If you can't keep the ball, you spend the whole game chasing it and have no energy after 90 minutes, let alone 120.

For anybody who follows Rugby League, the England football team is the same as the Great British RL team. We keep telling ourselves that player X is the best in the world in his position. Then we play Australia and get played off the park.

btw, Torres and Balotelli spent most of the season suspended or on the bench so I'd expect them to be fresh! :)

I wish I was as confident about St Georges park having an influence, but I remember Lilleshall which was the same thing. Young players from all clubs would spend time there learning from the Countries top coaches.

I think the impact of so many non British players in each team is a major factor. I remember our cricket teams having the same problem, all the County teams had the very best players from all over the World but this meant that the chances for English lads was greatly reduced. This resulted in the England cricket team getting beaten on a regular basis.

Many have spoken about better coaching, well clubs are getting boys from as young as 8. I have lost count of the number of young teams that are paraded around Goodison prior to games. Maybe they shouldnt be coached that young and allow their talents to develop.

Finally I see Capello is quoted as saying that until England have a mid winter break like most of Europe then our teams will always turn up tired at major tournaments. This of course may be true but the last time we won anything our players were playing 42 league games not 38, as well as playing in cup competitions as well as European competitions. Funny how nothing is mentioned about lessening the number of matches in the Champions league to keep players fresh, although I am forgetting who wants the cash cow lessened.

Due to our climate, our kids are practising on sodden, bumpy, poorly maintained parks (/ schools pitches?) that do not lend themselves to acquiring ball skills. Have you seen the state of some of the local pitches? Even Messi couldn't play on some of them.

In France and Germany where I have played, the pitches are quite often dirt tracks - but flat. You certainly don't want to go into a slide tackle unless absolutely necessary. Allied with a hotter, energy sapping climate in places such as Italy, Spain, France etc, players are encouraged to slow the pace down, stand up in the tackle and pass the ball. Practicising these skills as a youngster leads to technically gifted players later on. You can't teach these skills on some of our pitches because they're just not good enough until perhaps Academy level - too late then for most kids.

So for me, the answer lies as much in better facilities at junior level but, somehow, I can't see that happening in these investment-lacking, cost-cutting times.

In the English Premier League only 30% of regular first team players are English.*

I think the answer as to why the English National team fail in big competitions lies somewhere in those stats

*I can't remember where I saw this but I was shocked (possibly in the Daily Telegraph)

Sam - I remember feeling very uneasy when Rooney made his England debut, the idiot press hailing him as 'England's saviour' - how old was he? But yes, he did perform very well and although he's scored a few goals for United since he's never been as good as he was then. Remember all that crap about going to the place where they know how to nurture young talent? They bought him ready-made.

England need to realized there is no short-cut to success, certainly at this level. They need to go back to their roots to understand why English football is the best in the world, and reinvent themselves to the modern era. No bullying, no kicking, every game played in blazing sunshine on wimbledon center court. Copying flavour of the month tactics such as Chelsea can only get you so far before true quality prevails. Just look at Moyes and KITAN1.

We're not good enough, and it goes to our football culture. There is too much long ball, while getting possession between the boxes invites fear: what the Hell do I do with the ball?

Whenever I go to a London park to play football, I look for foreigners to play with/against (thankfully there are many). Playing with English people is often dreadful: once there was a guy at one game who just hung round the goal area, and I was in defence. They would simply launch it to him; no midfield play at all. I complained, that's offside: we do play offside in the park; I say, the rule was invented to stop shite football like this. Eventually I walked, I did not turn up to play head tennis, what a load of crap.

It's still a disgrace that footballers earning £4-5 million a year are also unable to play passing game. But it seems to permeate even to the top. The Beeb had it right: Italy thrashed England 0-0; Germany woulda murdered us.

I agree with every point you raise, people don't like to admit it but we are an aggressive nation the only time we're really at it is when having a scrap.

Fans in this country haven't the patience to watch "pass it sideways" for 10 mins, add in the reduction in numbers and quality of english players available and we're done at international level.

Not really worried myself, since the fallacy of newspapers promoting Beckham, Owen & Co as the golden generation england have become even more of a nonsense.

I don't know if coaching is the reason for this, but let's put it another way. Here on the continent I never ever heard anybody raving about the English youth system. The French system was popular some time ago and of course the Spanish/Barcelona setup gets great reviews. Occasionaly the German or Dutch system will get praise. The English system? Never. On the continent people assume that in England, children are thought to hoof the ball to the tallest lad of the team who of course is the striker. Don't know if that's true though.

Would you trust the old farts brigade at the FA to change us into something similar? The whole ethos and playing style is light years behind the continental model. Kick & rush, hoofball and flying tackles is where the English strengths lay. Just watching Andy Carroll and John Terry, they sum up our modern game.... Carroll being the most expensive English player of all time tells you all you need to know.

Until they do away with the FA and jobs for the boys on huge salaries, and bring in total reform of our national set up, it will never change.

There is an experiment starting at Anfield in August ? Rodgers will try to get Liverpool playing Barca style, with Andy Carroll and the rest of the hoofers; it should be very interesting!!

However, I think there are clear mentality issues. We are simply not making the passes we should be; we are playing with fear. The ball is going backwards instead of being played into tight areas, and it's as if more worried about making a mistake than scoring a goal.

We also need to invest at the youth levels in this country. Early last decade, Germany invested across the country into youth development (technical), and are reaping the rewards now. We need to (although won't/cant find 50-100mil) invest into football, and encourage the technical development of our youngsters.

There are of course other reasons. Our team is ageing and this time, our ability limited our progress. We also had the worse luck with regards to injuries of anyone in the competition (esp in central mid) and should have brought different players (most notably Richards and Johnson).

The lot of them were knackered after 30 minutes but so would any player be from any team who spends 5 minutes chasing the ball in order to get it back for 5 seconds and hand it back only to start all again. If they can't see what is wrong then there is no hope.

The bloody Greeks have won that tournament for Christ's sake.

Too much blood and thunder !

I mentioned on another thread that England does produce good technical players who can keep the ball, pick a pass and move intelligently but they are overlooked for bigger, stronger players with 'good engines'. Osman, Murphy, Dunn, Huddlestone, Mark Davies, Britton, Noble, all good footballers but they probably have maximum 20 caps between them, while people like Jenas, Dyer, Henderson etc get picked ahead of them because they are better athletes.

People like Joe Cole then get shunted out wide because they're 'too lightweight' for the middle, and cultured defenders like Pique and our very own Per Koldrup don't get Premier League games because they can't cope with aerial bombardment, this obviously also applies to kids coming through.

Until the style of play in the league changes, theres no chance of the national team implementing the changes.

So to simplify it, I guess you can blame it on money....and football agents.

As for the Euro's, it would have helped if Roy had been willing to use more than 14 of his 23 players, like every other team seemed to. Parker and Gerrard were knackered against Italy, and quite what Ashley Young and James Milner had done in any previous game to deserve to play in the next one is beyond me. Then Roy said to judge Young on the 4 games rather than the penalty miss! It sounded like he thought Young had played well!! Id have even given Downing a go in place of any of those two. Its sad that not one of that England side looked comfortable on the ball in the face of any pressure, and just hoof it the second an opponent gets within 10 yards of them.

We do have some decent young players though, both in and out of this years squad. Wilshire was a big miss, then we have Jones, Smalling, Oxalade Chamberlain, Rodwell (if he can stay fit), Barkley, Kyle Walker, Micah Richards, James Tomkins etc. We need to get these guys in with a few older heads, your Gary Cahill, Rooney, Jags, Baines, Lescott and try and build something. Roy upset Ferdinand this tournament, now he needs to do the same to Gerrard, Lampard, Terry and start from scratch. Also, if you are English and playing well in the premier league, but aren't playing for a so called 'big club', you should still have a chance!

Remember when we were kids playing? What coaching? What organized leagues? We just played. There was always competition. We chose up sides and went at it. Losers sat down while the winners played whoever called "next".

"Coaching" children is the problem. They should just be playing for the fun and joy of it. Like we did. Who were our favorite players then? Didn't we claim to be them and imitate them. No "coaches" yelling to knock it off.

If you can't field a team of technically-skilled players at the National level, look to the youth game. The problem's there. Over here, Klinsmann's trying to get us away from the Win the League mentality in our youth set-up. That kids should just be playing. Playing and nothing much else. Our as he put it, get more Latin-American kids in the team.

They're, overwhelmingly, the youth who are soccer-mad but whose parents can't afford the expense of getting them into organized leagues. Which, unfortunately, is the only place scouts go to view talent. Let me stop here or I'll get mad about it all over again.

Anyway, sorry to hear England suffering the same.

By the way, didn't think hart the best player in England's side. Thought Everton Lescott the best. By a margin.

Also, with Anthony Lamb. Why was Perlo allowed to do whatever he wanted? That was very strange. The greatest conductors in the world can't play the Maestro if someones continually knocking him off the stand. His roaming free was the most peculiar thing of the game.

Can't imagine he'll be allowed to play in a "deck chair" against the Germans.

First and foremost I'm an Evertonian, but I also like watching England in any guise in almost any Sport. Probably get shot down in flames here, but I believe as a nation we expect far to much from our sportsmen and, to appease those ironing while making our tea's in the kitchen, sportswomen. We expect to have the greatest Football, Rugby, Cricket, Athletics, Boxing, Rowing, Shooting, Racing car drivers, High board divers, skaters, skiers, speedway , and every other competition we enter, teams. Christ sake there's even a national debate when we get Nu points at the Eurovision. Simple fact is we don't have the population to be able to compete at everything at the very top level. Yet England, yes England, are the only country to have won the three most popular World Cups in sport, Football, Rugby and Cricket, alright the Cricket was a 20/Twenty but we still won it. I think we have Fooooour golfers in the top 10 at the moment. How's the German Rugby team doing, or the French Cricket. A lot of countries will specialise in one sport and go with that. How many Brazilians, no pubes jokes please, will win Gold at the Olympics, how many Argies will win Wimbledon. Fine Spain have great tennis stars and a great football team but how are their Rugby or Cricket lads doing, exactly.

At the moment we are the top Test and Twenty/20 Nation and where getting there with the onedayers. The Rugby lads had a shite World Cup, due to lack of discipline, but are still among the top Rugby teams.

Yes as footballers we need to be a lot better and at least give us something to shout about. But we tried a damn lot better than we did with Tommy Cooper, sorry Capello at the helm.

So while I won't say the footy team where anything but ordinary, I'm pretty sure not many teams like playing England at any sport.

I'll now don my tin hat and stand back

Nobody coached us to any great degree at school; we were coerced into improving our skills, use both feet, heading tennis, one-touch only and not over head-height games
You played in various positions until you found one to which you were best suited and we played for fitness and, most of all, fun
The thought of having your arl fella shouting at you on the touchline!

I learned any skills I possessed in Princes and Sefton Parks playing every evening until you couldn't see the ball and the coggy watchman was screaming at us to buggar off
"Next goal the winner" we'd shout at 33-24 down

In the street we'd play attack and defence with a tennis ball, three goals and in etc
Blimey! - sounding like Ripping Yarns "Golden Gordon" now - happy days!

The margins between success and failure are very, very small. We've been knocked out on penalties or to the eventual winners in an awful lot of tournaments, we've also had our share of refereeing controversies. Occasionally we're just shite because we're managed badly (this is true of almost all teams - see France for examples).

2012 - penalties
2010 - basically just shite, bad manager, but major refereeing controversy
2008 - didn't qualify, just shite, bad manager
2006 - penalties
2004 - penalties
2002 - eventual winners
2000 - just shite, terrible manager
1998 - major refereeing controversy and penalties
1996 - penalties to eventual winners
1994 - didn't qualify, just shite, bad manager
1992 - just shite
1990 - penalties to eventual winners
1988 - just shite
1986 - major refereeing controversy to the eventual winners

I don't think everything about English football needs to change, we need to pick our best players, play to our full potential and get a bit of luck. The biggest thing we need to change is our mentality, we either seem to think we're the best/ as good as anyone in the world or we're light years behind everyone else technically and tactically. Neither is true, our players just have slightly more adapting to do when it comes to playing international football.

The best about it was, the "next goal" always took forever, because we`d all start to play as if our lives depended upon it.

You say the margins are small then say this:

"our players just have slightly more adapting to do when it comes to playing international football."

THIS is the problem, nobody else adapts.

The Germans play as they do at home, ditto the Spanish, Italians, Portugese Dutch etc.

It's like getting off the plane in Malaga and hiring a car - you know how to drive - but adapting to the wrong side of the road means you end up on the road to Mijas rather than Marbella.

Ole'

These competitions are knock outs, with a bit more luck or with 1 less mistake here or there England might have picked up one or 2 trophies, no matter how they play (same with Everton under Moyes).

And for all the talk of copying this country and that country, you just never know how things will pan out. If Germany, for example, lose tomorrow then how long does this 'golden generation' have? If they lose in the quarters/semis in brazil then are they failures?

Check Germany's record compared to England's in tournaments, that's not luck that's design.

This year for example, Germany could have coneded a late penalty to Denmark and gone out at the group stage. At the last world cup had lampard's goal stood nobody knows what would have happened, England may have gone on to win. If both of these things happen then all of a sudden following the German model doesn't seem such a great idea.

Fine margins is all i'm saying.

They do have a wonderful crop of players. No question. But if Germany retained their old system, these players wouldn't have surfaced anyway? Find that hard to believe.

Were you at Old Trafford in April? When we were 4-2 down and Evra hit the post did you think we'd get a point? I didn't, I turned to my mate at the game and said 'this is going to end up 6 or 7'. It didn't.

As I've attempted to make abundantly clear, I'm not 'falling for' anything, I'm saying simply that a little bit of luck can go a long way in a knockout tournament.

Its actually embarassing/funny (take your pick) to see the likes of Milner, Carrol, Henderson etc being picked for a national tournament. Wellbeck is promising but far too raw to lead the line and Gerrard's best days are long past.

There is huge shortage of creative and technical English players in the country and few players who are/look confortable in possession. Its not surprising that the main strenght of the team is in defence, where less tactical prowess is needed and more pace and strength.

You need luck to win a tournament but luck alone will not suffice, you also need copious amounts of talent, creative talent (Greece '04 being maybe an exception). Until English (actually British) players are coached to play creatively at a young age and are comfortable in possesion, I dont think England will get near to winning a tournament.

I think there are some youngsters who have potential but whether they are picked and developed correctly is another matter.

We will have this dicussion again in about 25 months time, when England will be flying home after being knocked out of the 2nd round/ quarter final in Brazil.

(God help us if China or India evey take football seriously - with an almost 3bn population, law of averages means there must be a few potential messies in there!)

Yes, England did rattle them, but I still thought at the time that Germany had more in the tank.

Everton at OT is typical everton. It's why I never back them or against them. Only everton could stop united a week after the semi when we had no pressure on. The same everton that took more points off the top 6than the bottom 6 (guess).

I am an optimist when it comes to everton and never leave the match early, as I always fancy that we can pinch something in the last couple of minutes. Over the last 10 years Moyes has pulled quite a few points around in the last few minutes. Did I fancy us when they hit the post, probably not, although I was probably thinking where the fuck is our right back. However, I would say that when it went 4-3 I thought we would get something, I only thought it would be Gibson with the headlines (again).

James, the bringing through of youth into the first team has been a trademark of Joachim Low but he has been part of the national team revival since working alongside Klinsmann who was appointed without coaching badges (as was Beckenbauer many years before) during that time it was Low who has pushed for the regular introduction of fresh youngsters into the team all on merit and this has shown to be the way to go.

Barry the honours roll for Germany is outstanding in comparison to most sides and even greater v England

Germany
3 x FIFA World Cups
4 x FIFA World Cup Runners Up
4 x FIFA World Cup 3rd Place
1 x FIFA World Cup 4th Place
European Championships
3 x Winners
3 x Runners Up
FIFA Confederations Cup
1 x 3rd Place
1 x US Cup Winners
1 x Bronze Medal Olympics

England

1 x FIFA World Cup
1 x FIFA World Cup 4th Place
European Championships
1 x 3rd Place
1 x Tournament of France
1 x Runners up Hassan Trophy

They also underperformed this time because players like Rooney and Young just didn't perform and we didn't have anyone of quality to replace them. You can't carry players in any games.

For all my dislike of the RS I thought Carroll looked one of the better players on show. Kept the ball, worked really hard(while rooney was strolling around) and caused problems for the opposition. On the other hand rooney and young both played whenever they were available, yet produced very, very little. I also wonder if playing virtually the same 11 for so many games took its toll?

Ultimately the problem we have is that I think our youth system favours large athletic types rather than focusing on technical ability. Reducing pitch size for kids will likely help. Its no wonder that our players look uncomfortable on the ball when compared with their foreign rivals.

We also have to look at how our home leagues are flooded with non-english players. It doesn't help that clubs end up filling their reserves and youth systems too. English players are just not getting the game time because their clubs can afford to poach and develop the best from all over the world.

Gavin, I didn't say they would have panicked, I said you don't know whether they would or not. And guess what? You don't. You might think you do, you might think it's 'nonsense' to disagree with you, but I can state quite categorically - without any doubt whatsoever and with no fear at all of being proved wrong - that you have absolutely no fucking idea what would have happened if that goal had been allowed.

I do apologise for the language but after being pulled up 3 times for making a throwaway remark about needing a bit of luck in tournaments I'm fairly annoyed by your comments.

The majority, but evidently not all...

Err... ok Gavin.

All I am saying is that for England the media can pretend that it's unlucky all It wants, but in the majority of cases they have been a team clinging on rather than a team that should've won.

Mike listed 14 tournaments entered. I can't recall many when England were the better side and lost.

Read the post you commented on, I said Germany might well have won 10-2. I agree completely that Germany were by far the better team, both in the game and the tournament. I'm not even an England fan, I was just commenting that if one or two things in tournaments had turned out differently the way people percieve things may be different.

It's a knockout competition, if you get the eventual winners in the 2nd round and get knocked out it looks bad, get an easier draw and lose to the same team in the same way in the final you've done well. Do you see? Same outcome, different perception. Fine margins.

I watched Tottenham play Arsenal off the pitch for 40 minutes this season and lose 5-2. I once jumped up on a table and started singing and laughing at Liverpool fans who were losing 3-0 at half time in a big game you might have seen (not my finest moment), guess how that turned out?

All I'm saying is that no matter how superior Germany were they MIGHT have lost the game. As I said earlier, it was a throwaway comment but it's not something you can argue with, they might, it's a fact. That's why I can't quite understand why 3 people have decided they'll argue anyway.

A root and branch investigation followed by years of implementing different strategies from kids under 5 football right up to the pinnacle of the game in this country. New coaches, more coaches, different principles, less emphasis on winning, more emphasis on the way the game is played. Limits on foreign imports, more English kids getting a chance. Definitely English managers for the national team, that makes a huge difference.

Then by say, 2030, we should be ready to lose to another team from the world's top 10 in a penalty shoot out.

Consider English players in starting line up , Milner 25m , Lescott 24m.

Out of all them who is really a top top player ? If these players some who really are average cost so much, managers will buy abroad which stifles English talent.

Also managers have been terrible hoddle was last decent English manager

It's somewhat surprising that following Sunday's result, England have risen to #4 in the World Rankings. (Fair enough, Brazil drop down through not playing competitive games due to 2014).

Serious point - it's tournament football. Particularly in the latter stages, an element of fear (of losing) creeps in.

Less-serious point - a lot of England players had under-achieved / suffered disappointment at club level. Could that have had a hangover?

Against the top teams the results in knock out games has been poor.

Well the Premiership clubs are getting in kids just out of nappies,and I havent seen a noticeable improvement, or is it just me?

When I was a kid in the 90s it was the same, Ajax had just produced Bergkamp, Davids, Seedorf etc and were being held up as the perfect example of youth production. I'm not an expert but as far as I can see their production line appears to have dried up a bit.

Similarly in '98 the French revolution was the way forward and their facilities at Clairefontaine were going to ensure they were infinitely better than England for the next however many years. In reality though, it appears that they actually just had a genuine 'Golden Generation' with Henry, Zidane, Desailly etc and they've now gone back to being arguably worse than England.

I don't dispute that the English system has problems but I just find this constant 'look at what the french/german/spanish/dutch (delete as applicable) do' a little tiresome.

I'd love English players to go into international games with the confidence to play in an English style, rather than being uncertain in which nation they're supposed to be copying and inevitably looking disjointed and confused. I very clearly remember 1996 when we were told that the Holland and Ajax sides were the way football should be played and that we were a million miles behind them. I'm sure we all remember the score in that game.

There seems to be a real momentum again behind this idea that English players simply have something wrong with them in terms of technique. It isn't true, foreigners don't think it, only us, but a commentator can get away with saying anything along those lines and will never be challenged. Spain have Alvaro Arbeloa in their side for God's sake! He wasn't good enough for Liverpool and would probably be England's fourth choice right back at best, yet because he's Spanish and plays for Real Madrid people seem to assume he's got something special that English players don't. Likewise Ramos gets by on never having to defend and fouling when he does, and Busquets gets by on having a decent touch and giving the ball to Xavi and Iniesta (as well as being a despicable cheat).

There seems to be a perception sometimes that the English are arrogant, but I think the exact opposite. We spend far too much time constantly telling ourselves that we're not good enough, and that we can't play our own way, and this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Which aspects of 'technique' were you thinking about Mike? Under the pressure the Italians very deliberately put on them their ability to keep possession through control, passing and making space broke down again and again. Any argument that we should play 'the English style' rather than theirs also breaks down if you can't get the ball to do it. Whatever 'it' is.

And as for English arrogance. We see shite journalistic jingoistic bulldog breed fight them on the beaches nonsense - but statements of footballing superiority which will bring certain victory? Can't remember that.

We don't produce enough talent. How many english players are really stars in the league, Rooney and Hart? Compared to the top imports RVP, Aguero, Toure, Silva, Nani, Vidic, Cisse, Jelavic (had to get a blue in), Van der Vaart. Evan down the years Shearer and Scholes, Gerrard in his pomp are probably the standout English players, compared to Bergkamp, Zola, Drogba, Henry, Cantona, Di Canio, Anelka, Viera, Pires, Anelka, Van Nistlerooy, Ronaldo and erm.......... Straquelersi.

Exactly, compared with, say, the 1986 or 1990 World Cups: Lineker, Beardsley, Steven, Reid, Gascoigne, Platt, Waddle, Barnes... etc. All stars in a League dominated by homegrown players.

Owen and Lineker's lack of control made them bit part players at Barca and Madrid yet feted as english footballing gods here.

legging it onto the long ball and feeding off bone headed english defenders is radically different to what happens abroad.

We breed flawed footballers, if it's not poor technique it's a lunatic mentality under pressure - it really is that simple.

Who can really say why we don't have 80% English players in the EPL? Desperate need for (relative) success means it suits clubs to buy in developed players from less well paying leagues rather than developing young talent. English kids have a wider variety of popular sports to pick from than those in other countries. A relatively high standard of living for the majority of the population means that there is a lack of drive to improve oneself through sport. A culture that expects things straight away does not breed enough with the desire to put in the hard work required to become a top-class sportsman, despite the obvious rewards.
All of these could be significant factors and all of them may partially account for why so many of our national teams are not as competitive as our population size and traditions would lead one to expect.

Keith: "Which aspects of 'technique' were you thinking about Mike?" Exactly. I'm not thinking about them, the 'expert commentators' are. According to them English players can't control the ball and pass it. This is nonsense.

Danny, you're naming the best players in the league and the world. I'm not surprised we fall short of the very best. Who has the technique to match them? Wilshere, Carrick and dare I say it Rodwell and Osman.

Barry, I think you're point is crucial. Our players don't go abroad and learn about other facets of the game. Their footballing education stops at first team football in England, then possibly European competition. Paul Ince become a far better player when he went to Inter, same with McManaman at Real Madrid. Your point about Lineker and Owen though I don't think is correct. They were very similar 'goalsnatcher' type players who coaches find it difficult to fit into modern formations. The modern equivalent is Jermaine Defoe and he's hardly ever first choice at squad level. Steve Archibald scored plenty of goals in the Spanish league tapping it in from a yard, but if he'd been played on the wing like Lineker and Owen were he'd have struggled.

Si, we were outplayed and on number of good chances deserved to lose, but we kept a clean sheet and had three good chances. If any of those go in we've won, beating the Italians at their own game. Its almost as if international football and England's failures in it come down to very fine margins. Why has no-one pointed that out yet. Oh...

Derek, you manage to be wrong twice in only two lines. One, they have Playstations in Spain, France, Italy, Germany or wherever else the footballing God's we're supposed to idolise and copy this week come from. Also, the Italians are the ultimate in keeping it tight and pinching one, their entire footballing culture and mentality is built on it.

Steve I think mentality is the biggest factor in the failings of English football, and I think a huge part of the problem is this massive inferiority complex we give ourselves every two years by telling ourselves that every other country does everything better than us. You can see in Steven Gerrard's comments that he believes it, so do many of the ex-players commenting after England's penalty shoot-out defeat the potential champions.

The F.A pointing useless cack arse managers, (the current one springs to mind), and not getting rid of them once they've past their sell by dates,

:Eriksson, Jesus, this man got caught offering his services to another team and ended up with a pay rise.
:Capello, Should of gone after the last world cup, (couldn't speak English when he arrived)
:Hodgson, Should go now ( and won't be able to speak English when he leaves).

Being picked for your country should be one of the highs of a players career, but a lot of players and managers see it as a hindrance rather than a privilege, get the feeling they would rather be somewhere else.

Take Micah Richards for example, refusing to go on standby for the euro's and Henderson taking his place instead.

A few years back Bentley refusing to play (because he was tired),Chris Sutton too, and other players calling early retirement from national football to concentrate on club football, Scholes and Shearer spring to mind on this one, Wankas. Many years still in the engine for them two. Shit houses both of them.

Total lack of respect for national team.

We can't complete more than four (two) passes.

Can't retain the ball,which backs the first point.

Football is evolving, we're not, you can't bully teams no more, get stuck in and put them off their game, ref's won't allow it.

Can't rely on KITAP1 footy which Hodgson employed, other countries are too advanced for this and found us out, and even if Hodgson had 2 years with the team we know the football or style of play wouldn't of been any different.

Development of the youth is disgraceful (Remember being at trials for Liverpool School Boys (age 10) and everyone who got picked had a beard and could kick a ball further than most, much better players were left out,(not me). Quality way to pick the team. But this shows the mentality of the people picking the players.)

Read that abroad (not sure on specific country) no player has a position as they play everywhere till they're about 14/15 years old, imagine the benefits.

And looking at it now, outside in the streets, local parks, not many kids are out there kicking a ball about, where as when I was a lad that's all I did and my mates and everyone else did in between getting into trouble and what not.

It will take a revolution to re-invent national football, but like me, you know it won't
happen, and interest will wane and we'll get worse.

These euro's were the first time that I promised myself that I wouldn't go out, get hammered and spend a fortune watching this shower because of the manager and the squad he picked.

Knowing we'd be shite, the inevitable would happen, I saved a fortune, was relaxed, didn't curse at the team, didn't get wound up and didn't smash the house up, didn't give it to the ex or find the kids and the dog cowering behind the curtains because we lost.

Wish I could do the same with my club.

COYB.

I could almost guarantee I could hit the bottom corner of the goal at pace and score past most keepers, bare footed, left or right.

(As anyone who went on the (Shoot To Win) in Faliraki a decade a go would testify)

Practice makes perfect.

So what are these idiots thinking to hit those pens' the way they did.

Disgraceful.

If Roy sticks with 4-4-2 then England are toast. England were being murdered in centre midfield, whereas the back four had relatively little to do (certainly the fullbacks offered nothing). With most teams playing 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, it's odd that teams pass on the midfield initiative by being outnumbered in the engine room playing 4-4-2.

A smart adaptive coach would look at this and change the team shape accordingly. I have thought the same at Goodison when teams have played 1 up front, why have we 4 picking him up?