West Ham [are not] interested in Osman

Even Moyes isnt that loyal.

Just isnt the same is it !

For me the reason he's never been near England is there are better players about, not loads though, and there's still a fair debate about where his best position is?

Osman may not produce in every match but when he's on form he's a fantastic midfielder who can work hard, be creative and most importantly score goals.

If Osman played for Liverpool he would have over 20 England Caps.

It's easy to knock him because he frequently does disappear, especially in big games, but overall Osman is an underrated gem of a player.

£6 million? Double it and I may talk shop.

Good/useful player against weaker teams, but against the big boys time asnd time again he goes missing. A little too lighweight aswell. Honest and local yes, but tahst not enough for any established prem club these days.

Due to his ability to play all across midfield and off the striker he is a very, very good squad man in a team that wants to have a dart at the top 4.

He cannot play any of these positions to approaching top quality domestic league standard, so international football is just not going to happen.

He would, however, look like Riquelme in the Championship.

I can't see it happening myself. 6 mil seems a bit out of context. I'd hold on to him for 3 or less. Good player to have in the squad.

As for the post about him playing for England, I actually agree that he is the type of player that England lack, someone brave enough to receive the ball in opposition territory and run with it.. Gerrard, Lampard, Barry etc all want to pass to the full back.

If we are talking about being direct then surely a good stat to judge Osman against Gerrard and Lampard is goals scored, Osman has never scored more than 6 league goals in a season, Lampard has just scored at least 10 goals in 10 individual seasons, Gerrard has never been outscored by Osman in a season. Personally I hate them two gobshites especially Gerrard but to say that he is more direct than them two and deserves a place in the England team ahead of either of them is ridiculous, also he isn't better than Wilshere, Milner, Lennon, Walcott and Young. I'm just curious who people who think Ossie deserves a place in the England team as to who he should displace.

A hard-working, clever & under-valued player; remorselessly & disproportionately slagged-off for the weaknesses in his game.

Happily, I can't see him leaving any time soon either.

Oh my good grief... he is probably the most INCONSISTENT player we had in our team throughout that period.

One minute he's sublime, the next he can't pass five foot.

If you think he's been our most consistent then you don't watch a lot of Everton.

There's a greater emphasis on technique and less so on athleticism and frankly English football doesn't produce the small technical players who succeed at the highest level ie Iniesta, Xavi, Zola, Maradonna, Aimar, Deco, Juninho, Ozil, etc. They are left behind before they are even teenagers.

As for Robbie 209 - "Turn it in yous are embarassing all Evertonians"

..Aw, I can't be bothered, yous are probably in bed by now anyways.

Is this true ? How much is Osman on at Everton ? If he could double his wages fair play..

Make him the key man? Er... no they don't.

But at the end... it is just rumor... right?

What would you prefer?

Shows how bored we all are that such a preposterous twitter rumour is getting our attention.

Graham, don't you dare talk about respecting players for what they've done/are doing for Everton. This is Toffeeweb, remember? Once they are slightly over the hill, or just approaching the lower slopes of said hill, they are all, without doubt, shite.
And don't you forget it.

Basically a childish 'Arrr 'ey, don't be tight on him'.

He says..

"Give him a break you bunch of moaners. Loyalty should be applauded, not derided"

I agree but..so what?

Loyalty, IN THIS CONTEXT, would be Osman has had repeated offers to move to bigger, better clubs for bigger, better money and has said no because he feels a loyalty to Everton.

This was/is NOT the case.

Fact: Osman is NOT being constantly chased by other teams so his 'loyalty' consists of him being picked to play for Everton, playing ok sometimes, really well on occasion and shite sometimes.

AND being paid incredible money for the privilege.

Now explain, how EXACTLY has he shown this 'loyalty'.

For the record, I think he's alright as a player.

(and Ray, if TW upsets you so much...)

This isn't to say I don't think he's a good player, quite the opposite, I think he is and has been a good servant for this club and is given far too much flack, I think because he's more of a flair player (ironically the ones that the boo boys keep banging on about us needing when they criticise our football as lacking ideas, etc) than a tackle-back and knock em'off the ball type.

Something which is very interesting though is the Castrol rankings of the Europe's best players. Guess which player is rated by far Everton's best and sits above Antonio Valencia, one place above Chelski's new £32 million pound man Hazard and just bellow Ozil and Barca's former Shite Mascherano at number 77 in European football? You guessed it. (link below)
http://www.castrolfootball.com/rankings/rankings/?team=&comp=&nation=&position=&search=&offset=60&jump=1

£6 million might be about right for the wizard :-) 

"Don't you dare....." what is that supposed to mean?? I'll say what I want, THIS isToffeeweb after all.

Eugene, maybe my comment could of been interpreted as childish. However, my point was that Osman never complains in the media when he is dropped or played out of position. He gets on with it and does a better than OK job week in week out. He gets paid incredible money for the Privilege, but, hey, that's not his fault is it?

I hope my EXPLANATION is suffice for you mate.

"Eugene, maybe my comment could of been interpreted as childish. However, my point was that Osman never complains in the media when he is dropped or played out of position. He gets on with it and does a better than OK job week in week out. He gets paid incredible money for the Privilege, but, hey, that's not his fault is it?"

Eh?

I don't remember reading that!

And If that WAS your point, why didn't you say it FIRST time rather than being forced into it?

Sorry but If I said "Osman is a twat!", was then criticised for this opinion and responded to the criticism with "My point was Osman is sometimes played out of position and is easily pushed off the ball", you would be posting "Bollocks that is nothing LIKE what you said!"

And you'd be right.

"Mind you, so'd Ginger Rogers"

There has been interest from other clubs and although he was never offered the sort of carrot dangled in front of players like Gerrard and Rooney, it`s worth noting that it took significantly improved offers from their current clubs to secure their "loyalty"

A cracking little player, who on grey days, has often been the only glimmer of talent on show.

If Leon Osman can't be called loyal then who can?

He has got a very good first touch, but is let down by his size, he also has the shot of a six year old boy.

I just don't think Moyes is at all ruthless when it comes to moving along this type of player - Cahill, Osman, Hibbert etc.

It could be he knows he won't see any of the money if he does sell anyone, so I won't knock him for it.

As someone mentioned, I can't wait for Moyes to pen his biography about his time at the club, I wonder if he will remember his loyalty to Kim Jong Bill ?

As for Everton, Osman has been exceptional for a long period of time. If he'd been allowed to play in the middle more than he has been then we would have seen a lot better football, our best performances of recent times have come with him in the middle. As it is he's had the graveyard shift on the wing and has rarely disappointed.

He carried us through the back half of last season and through the start of this one with his goals and assists. I never buy the 'he hasn't got a shot' argument, look at a compilation of his goals and compare them with any of the recent Everton midfielders. For technique and power few come close, only Arteta's match him and he didn't get as many as Osman.

I couldn't agree more. Half of these posters must suffer from Alzheimer's. Obviously everyone has an opinion, but don't make-up or re-write history just to pad your own arguement.

Yeah Ossie gets paid a lot of money to be loyal. They ALL get paid LOADS of FLIPPING money ? every one of them, and most are not loyal at all.

Not a big game player? Man City home (in fact whenever we play City), Liverpool away last year. When we lose these 'big' games, it's usually because the team collectively has played below par.

Osman is a cracking little player in my book. He would be comfortable with the Spanish style of play more than England's though. Typically he isn't even in the squad.

I was being ironic, or sarcastic, whichever....but not directed at you.
Yer daft get.

Eugene@244

I like Toffeeweb, it's just some "fans" like nothing better than to slag our players off.
Coz they're all "shite"

Why if they have a different read on the player is it because they 'like nothing better than to slag out players off'?

Sorry but complete bollocks.

Be honest, If someone said regarding a pro-Osman post of yours, "Oh some won't hear any criticism and would cheer Charles Manson if he had a blue shirt on" you wouldn't just accept it.

Well same diff!

By all means tell them you think they're talking shite, bollocks etc (nb: and why!) but the - "Tut! Blimmin miserable Toffeeweb" - stance, makes no sense if you yourself spend time posting opinions and reading the opinions of others.

By the way, putting "fans" in quotes doesn't make anyone less of a blue than you (no matter how much you'd like it to).

(And re Osman, as I said earlier, I personally don't think he's shite, but he's not Zico either!)

Just don't get this loyal thing, you can bet your bottom dollar if the mancs had come in for him (he is not that good) then he would have been away like a shot.

Doesn't deserve criticism coz Moyes plays him out of position a lot of the time but if you want loyalty go get a dog.

Which is probably all the banks will let us pay for this summer.....

I sometimes get a bit pissed off with people coming on here with nothing positive to say. Unless , of course, it's "Osman is positively crap". Actually, I think he's an intelligent, talented player lacking only strength and real pace.

Tell me, do you not think that there is a section of contributors on here who can see no positives at all? Only this week someone on here was complaining that we had had Scottish players! Dear Lord...

I never tire of watching this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBruzHqrLIg

Couple of points.

You say..

"I sometimes get a bit pissed off with people coming on here with nothing positive to say".

Well I wouldn't think of myself as 100% negative but I definitely veer that way.

However you really should consider that MANY Evertonians (especially those over 40) will see negativity as a perfectly natural stance/response for the present set-up.

Many will simply see it as is the right/logical 'reaction to the action'.

Consequently and naturally, they will see the opposite stance as odd.

Personally, I see the adopting of 'positivity no matter what' as VERY strange (nb: not saying that's you but there are quite a few who seem to wear their positivity as a badge of honour)

You ask me..

"Tell me, do you not think that there is a section of contributors on here who can see no positives at all?"

Yes, I think there ARE many who see no positives at all.

I also think that is their choice and they shouldn't feel the need to water down their opinions because you (or anyone else) would prefer something happier.

For the record, I would happily see Moyes replaced and Bill, Elstone and the rest and I think most of the football we have played for a long time has been shocking and entertainment-free.

I have one glimmer of light/positivity which is the the style of football we played from the second half of Swansea until the end of the season.

Continue to play it next season and I'll become more positive, go back to the old percentage shite and you'll see 100% negative from me as well.

I agree with your comments regarding people's right to make their point, without feeling the need to water it down. I am merely pointing out that a constant whingeing about different players being shite is tiresome in the extreme. That is MY point, and it is my right to say it, as you have already conceded.

I am in no way looking for a website where everyone skips about in sunshine, thinking that all is well with Uncle Bill's World. I'd spend my time on Bluekipper if that was the case.

And, yes, supporters over 40 can "see negativity as a perfectly natural stance/response for the present set-up" , I should know as well as you, I saw my first game in 1959 season and will all too soon collect my pension, so I can compare the current squad with our greatest. (There is no comparison, by the way.)

You are correct in your observation about our performances in the latter stages of the season. We played football as good as most teams in the Prem and our final position would have been much higher if that had been the standard from the beginning of the season. Or was I seeing the games through blue tinted specs...

People point to Osman's goals to how good he is. One poster has even compared his to Arteta's. The thing is, if you look at every one of his goals, how many shots/opportunities has he missed because he either doesn't have the stride, or his shot would struggle to knock over a house of cards? My estimate? A lot.

Irony duly noted. Apologies for misplaced offence.

You're pefectly free to take Dave Wilson's silence to mean anything you want, but I would suggest it's probably down to him leaving the thread or doing a little of what his boss pays him to do. Now you have my attention and I will gladly answer you ? with facts.

I once saw and heard Paul Jewell tell Chris Kamara on Sky that he had twice approached Everton with a view to purchasing Ossie, once when he was managing Wigan and I THINK the other time was when he was at Ipswich (he didn't say).

I also know for a fact that George Burley tried to make his loan spell at Derby County permanent ? you should know this too.

Now I don't know the fees offered (probably not a lot and evidently not enough) but I do know that my statement about other clubs being interested in Ossie was indeed fact.

You seem to have gotten it into your head that SOMEBODY is claiming clubs above us had come begging for Ossie but I have scoured the thread and nobody is.

The point being made is Ossie has had several opportunities to move, become a bigger fish in a smaller pond if you like, but he chose to stay and when he backed himself to "make it" at Goodison, our club acquired a wonderful loyal servant for next to nothing.

You seem to be desperate to prove NONE of the big clubs have come "begging" for Ossie ? even though nobody actually said they had ? so go'ed then, the floor's yours, prove it.

Prove it was only the smaller clubs who had their offers rejected? Prove none of the big boys have ever made an enquiry?

But play by the rules you want to impose on others... just stick to the facts.

"I once saw and heard Paul Jewel tell Chris Kamara on Sky that he had twice approached Everton with a view to Purchasing Ossie, once when he was managing Wigan and I THINK the other time was when he was at Ipswich (he didn't say).

"I also know for a fact that George Burley tried to make his loan spell at Derby County permanent ? you should know this too."

that backs up what I said 100%, ,. Wanna try to back up what you said ?

Final request ; Give some clear facts to back up your claim that none of the big boys has ever tried to sign Ossie..

Come on now Paul. Although Your the only one in this Particular argument, you came back twice to have it . .how can you lose it ?

He came back after a very long absence and was loaned out to Carlisle. At the risk of turning this into a "what have the Romans ever done for us" job, They wanted him too.

Ossie has always divided opinion. God knows he has his critics, but footballers like Joe Cole have told us how highly rated he was by his peers, Holloway called him a "dream player" Wiltshire calls him the English Iniesta, while his current manager has made him part of the Goodison furniture.

West Ham may or may not want him, who knows? What we do know is that Everton want him and have wanted him enough to turn down offers from others throughout the best part of a decade.

2011-12 Season
2010-11 Season
2009-10 Season
2008-09 Season
2007-08 Season
2006-07 Season
2005-06 Season

Answer: None, Zero, Zilch.

And why would Paul Jewel's comments make the Rumour Mill? He is no longer a manager ? he`s talking past tense

I`m guessing though that not every single transfer inquirey becomes common knowledge. Was it on the Rumour Mill when Arsenal made their first and what we now no to be very concrete bid for Arteta (a year before he actually left)? What about the transfers of Bily, Heitinge, Fellaini... did anyone see them coming? Was the Jelavic signing picked up before the day we actually signed him Fair play if they were, but I only remember being surprised by these signings.

Nobody has claimed the big clubs have come calling for Ossie ? I guess because they are not in a position to. And nobody should state catergorically that they haven't. Same reason of course

Osman to return in January

24 Dec - Leon Osman will return to Everton on 4 January after completing a very successful 3-month loan with Carlisle. The promising young midfielder was voted Carlisle player of the month for October; will David Moyes give him a chance to be the creative midfielder we are crying out for?

Regarding his loan spell at Derby County the following season (January-April 2004), we noted that the fans wanted him to stay: Looking to the Future, but again, no mention of what you claim, although we did report that "David Moyes has said firmly that Ossie is not for sale, but implied strangely that he won't be considered for any of Everton's remaining games this season." We noted that George Burley was impressed with him, and according to the Everton website, his word were: "I will be doing what I can to make sure that Leon stays with us for as long as possible," said Burley. "David Moyes knows I like him." ? That was at the beginning of his loan spell, in February 2004 and the loan was extended at least twice after that; a desire to make his loan permanent may well have been there. But so what? Osman was playing at his proper level, trying to stop Derby's relegation from the Football League Division One. Surely that's not the crux of your case, is it?

As regards these other mythical offers you want others to prove didn't happen over the last decade... well you know you can't prove a negative, which is what you are demanding, but all the evidence suggests your claims in that respect are indeed false.

Dear me, if Burley had stormed finch farm and kidnapped Ossie he couldnt have made his intentions any clearer. "David Moyes knows I like him" . ."I will be doing what I can to make sure Leon stays with us as long as possible"

You neednt have bothered doing all that research about Carlisle either Michael, You should have just asked me, I got it straight from the horses mouth at the time. .do you even know who their manager was back then ?

I didnt come on here demanding others to prove a negative. I had made my point, that point being Ossie is a cracking player, loyal to the bone, who could have chosen an alternative rout but had the bollocks to back himself - thats all . . .no hint/ suggestion about top boys coming in for him . .but I was called back to the thread not once, but twice by somebody wanting me to prove what he THOUGHT I`d said - to prove a negative.
I merely turned the tables

"I don't believe for a second that nobody has enquired about him during his many years at Goodison. It's just not possible".

Do you mean 'enquired' or 'bid for'?

I ask as you start with 'bid' and change to 'enquired' and there IS a difference.

Whatever the truth, the POINT is, we have seen no real proof.

(nb: what you 'don't believe for a second' is proof of nothing).

Oh and the idea 'it's just not possible' is daft - of course it's possible.

(I quite like Osman but he's not Roy Race).

Aaaaand that's as much as I need to read on that.

What has Downing done lately?

"What we do know is that Everton have wanted him enough to turn down offers from others throughout the best part of a decade."

Asking people to prove what has not happened IS asking proof of a negative, as in (your words): "Prove none of the big boys have ever made an enquiry?" "Give some clear facts to back up your claim that none of the big boys has ever tried to sign Ossie." ? that's called proving a negative; it can't be done!

Given your past and current economy with the truth, why on earth would I ask you anything?

Is now a good time to tell you that Henderson has come in for Lampard?

Joking aside, we all know the bias towards the media favourites when it comes to the national squad. I am amazed Everton have 2 players in the final England squad, even though one was through injury, and neither will likely start barring further injury.

Given players like Carrick and Scholes of Man U made themselves unavailable/refused to come out of retirement, you know they would still go for underachievers from the media teams.

I don't recall us ever being the media's favourite, more grudging admiration during our pomp in the 80s, and we often would provide almost half the England starting XI, let alone squad. Our decline coupled with Man U's rising in late 80s / early 90s - you could almost feel the collective media sigh of relief.

I can only presume the squad is picked on last transfer value.

I think Hodgson has a good record as a coach, international experience, and without the pressure of dealing with transfers, plus the fact he buys into the bigger FA vision of youth development, gives him a clean sweep over Harry.

He probably didn't want to go too drastic on a tournament he will automatically (if reluctantly) get a pass from from the media due to his late arrival.

Evolution not revolution... We've now seen the last of Lampard I think in competitive matches. There's a lot more to go over the next two years prior to hopefully qualifying for Brazil. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real Hodgson will emerge, where reputation off the pitch is not as important to proven ability on it.

This was after all the man who signed Konchesky for the RS... Damn, shot my argument down!

Lampard, Barry, carrick, scholes, Wilshire, Rodwell, Osman, mark davies, huddlestone, Gardner, cattermole. John ebbrell should feel a bit upset he was overlooked in comparison to this no mark.

Then you went and blew it and mentioned konchesky. He obviously does overly-like players he has managed in the past...

I guess we can expect more liverpool players in the first team.

read the thread, the guy asked be to back up something he seems to think I said.

How could I ? why would I ?

He seemed to think My "silence" actually proved his point.

On more than one occasion challenged me to PROVE something I hadnt said, was true . . I eventually responded by merely asking him to prove it wasnt..

The u21 squad on wiki is woeful. Apart from Kelly and chamberlain, the squad has nothing which is a big worry.

He's still here.

Lee: "I don't need proof".

Dave: "Prove you DON'T need proof!"

Lee: "But I don't NEED proof!"

Dave: "Well PROVE you don't then!"

Lee: "Eh?"

Dave: "What?"

Fans expect players to think like fans and they just don't.

It`s POSSIBLE that Moyes knew of Burleys admiration and desire to sign Ossie . without Burley actually telling him.

Its POSSIBLE that when Burley said he would "do all he can to keep Leon". He actually MEANT, he`d do all that he can to keep him . .without actually making an inquiry (sorry bid) for him.

Its POSSIBLE Paul Jewel lied.

Its POSSIBLE that a club would make a loanee their player of the year without asking if they could make the move Permanent.

Its POSSIBLE that in an invironment where discrete inquiries are mad about players every day of the week, every week of the year, that Ossie was one of the few exceptions . .for ten years.

Its POSSIBLE that although people like Cole, Wiltshire, Holloway wax lyrical about Ossie . nobody actually wants him .

Eugene has been around the block Mate. NOTHING gets past him and as he says "we`ve seen no real proof" Then we aint

Your common sense approach cuts no ice there mate. You need Proof ! Irrefutable, incontravertable proof . .got none ? aaaand thats it for you

Perhaps you could get Davey Moyes, Paul Jewel and George Burley to post in and substantiate your claim.

But if you do that, your also going to have to prove they are not lying

You say (I'm guessing sarcastically but who the fuck knows) 'Eugene - nothing gets past him'.

On the contrary, plenty gets 'past me'.

I tend to steer clear of financial arguments on TW as numbers baffle and confuse me (really - I bow to just about everyone on anything to do with numbers, profit, loss, shares etc).

And I'm actually in awe of the intelligence of people like Tom Hughes and Colin Fitz because of how much detail and fact (nb: proof!) their post's contain.

I also know if I go at it with Tony J. I'd better consider what I am posting because any weak point or lack of facts will be seized upon.

Truth is there are many posters on TW who impress me and not always people I agree with.

But nothing YOU (or 'mr common sense') are going to post will 'get past me'.

You are imo the classic alehouse/barrack-room lawyer.

"University? Tell you where I went, best university in the world, university of life! - (waves empty glass) - When you're ready Alice!"

I believe you are someone who, if on a desert Island, would argue with your own feet

(nb: and lose!).

You naively believe that to continue an argument to the bitter end means you're 'winning' it, rather than just making yourself look a bigger fool each time.

And on Osman bids/interest/enquiries?

Even if you were 100% spot-on about Osman, your arguments offer NOTHING in the way of proof.

You say..

"What we do know is that Everton want him and have wanted him enough to turn down offers from others throughout the best part of a decade".

At best, staggering exaggeration, at worst, total bullshit.

Easy to sort out though - if you have ACTUAL proof of this, let's see it, if not don't state it as a fucking fact.

You then (showing incredible brass neck) instruct Paul Ferry to..

"Give some clear facts to back up your claim that none of the big boys has ever tried to sign Ossie"

This IS asking to prove a negative and is 'turning the tables' on nobody.

"You say there are no 15-headed babies, but why don't you back up your claim and PROVE there aren't".

Sheer gibberish, as is your (classic alehouse-lawyer) "I made my point" and/or "I got it from the horse's mouth" (followed by..er..nothing).

Seriously, do you ever read any of your posts back?

And by the way, what ARE your 'clear' facts?

Two you mention begin..

"I once saw and heard Paul Jewel tell Chris kamara on Sky..."

And "I also know for a fact that.."

Fact?

WHAT fact?

Whatever you think, any sentence that begins this way, will NEVER "back up what I said 100%" - wishful thinking, wishful thinking, wishful thinking.

Actually, I'll attempt to prove this to you (doesn't hold breath)

Seriously, relax for a minute..........................right, now try and imagine yourself as the defendant in a bank robbery trial and you are TOTALLY innocent of the charges.

Ok?

Now imagine if those appearing for the prosecution (nb: they're the ones trying to put you in jail!) when asked for their evidence, told the jury..

"I once heard him say..." or "I know for a fact he.."

Now tell me I'm wrong - but I think you would expect/hope the word 'OBJECTION!' to be shouted long and loud by your brief.

Well (like a few others) I'm shouting it on YOUR (lack of) 'evidence'.

Yes it's absolutely fine to offer no evidence/proof, if all you're saying is "I love Ossie", but to insist teams HAVE bid for him (for the best part of a decade) and then offer fuck-all proof is just plain fucking..dumb.

It's about people having no clue whether your posts a true or not, but simply disagreeing for the sake of it. It's about people demanding you prove what you say ? no counter argument, mind... just an insistence on taking truth to the n-th degree. If I say I was told something, that is to let people know how I know ? not to prove it to you.

Let's go back to your courtroom: Is the jury asked to take truth to the n-th degree? No, of course not. They are asked to accept evidence that they consider to be beyond reasonable doubt.

So come on Eugene, let's hear your truth ? I assure you I won't be back to ask you to prove it.

Do you consider the club nominating Ossie as Player of the Season on his first loan spell as evidence that they wanted him beyond reasonable doubt?

And when George Burly said he would do what ever he could to keep him. is that also evidence beyond reasonable doubt?

And given these incidents took place approx 7 to 9 years ago, do you accept that as proof that this interest in Ossie covers the best part of a decade?

This is my last word on it. I will not contest your call either way.

The problem for you, Dave, is that belief becomes your fact and you state it as such... when, at the end of day, it's nothing more than a perception, as conveyed in these three questions you pose:

Do you consider the club nominating Ossie as Player of the Season on his first loan spell as evidence that they wanted him beyond reasonable doubt?

It was approeciation from the fans, as I recall. Everton made it very clear Ossie was not for sale; the loan ended as is the normal course of events. No indication an offer was ever made.

And when George Burly said he would do what ever he could to keep him. Is that also evidence beyond reasonable doubt?

The Burly quote, as you convieniently ignored earlier, came soon after the start of Ossie's Derby loan, and was made good in the form of at least two loan extensions (Ossie was on month-to-month with 24-hr recall). While Burly may have wanted to make it permanent, it does not mean an offer was made for him. There is no indication an offer was ever made for him.

And given these incidents took place approx 7 to 9 years ago, do you accept that as proof that this interest in Ossie covers the best part of a decade?

They occurred in what is now the dim and distant past! Is that all you've got for your 'decade' of fictitious offers being turned down? Give up now, Dave, please!

Find a way of not making bold statements that can be thrown back at you and we wouldn't have to go down this path so often.

That he won player of the season (probably played alright like).

Next.

And what about what George Burley said?

I've no idea for sure, but I'll guess George thought Osman was ok.

And.........what?

As I suggest, proof of fuck-all other than Osman played ok for two bum teams (nb: absolutely, definitely not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of ANYTHING to do with bids for him)

So, on the strength of piss-weak nonesense like this, you confidentally ask..

"Is the jury asked to take truth to the enth degree ? no of course not. They are ask to accept evidence that they consider to be beyond resonable doubt"

'ENTH DEGREE!!?'

Hil-ARIOUS!

Here is what you have presented as 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

"I got it straight from the horse's mouth' (nb: this statement followed by FUCK-ALL explanation).

Then we had..

"Everton want him and have wanted him enough to turn down offers from others throughout the best part of a decade"

And the proof that this is beyond a reasonable doubt?

Er..Coz you says so.

More?

Try..

"I once saw and heard Paul Jewell tell Chris Kamara on Sky that he had twice approached Everton with a view to purchasing Ossie".

Or..

"I also know for a fact that George Burley tried to make his loan spell at Derby County permanent".

Ffs, do you REALLY think I'm going to think - "Wow..DAVE knows it for a FACT, good enough for me!"

And on it goes..

"Now I don't know the fees offered (probably not a lot and evidently not enough) but I do know that my statement about other clubs being interested in Ossie was indeed fact".

Incredible, you know it AGAIN for 'a fact' (staggered you don't know the fees though, slipped up there!)

And on..

"Ossie has had several opportunities to move, become a bigger fish in a smaller pond"

And so on and so on and so on.

It's ALL 'true', it's from 'the horse's mouth', you know it all for 'a fact', and consequently, it's..beyond a reasonable doubt.

Shit, if only you had some evidence!

(places black hanky on head)

Off to the Nox bar - thanks for making the afternoon go quicker!

Make this the next toffeweb poll this

1) Do you think this ; (Print ) constitutes evidence BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that Carlisle did indeed enquire about Ossie`s availability?

2) Do you think George Burleys statement (print ) constitutes Evidence BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT That he inqired about Ossies availability?

Or quite simply- because you have a very knowlegable membership - Do you think there is any reasonable doubt that Everton have had inquires form other football clubs about Osman`s availability throughout the past decade?

I`ll accept your members verdict. Will you?

There is no indication that any offers were ever made for Ossie by anyone over the past decade. You THINK there might have been... But there is no record, suggestion, story, article, or anything you can come up with that there were.

How many times is that now you've done your usual and said you were out... only to return again for more punishment?

A clever player with ability and quick feet but for me too inconsistent.

Dave, read my lips: IT CAN'T BE DONE.

But what can be done is to look back over the records of such things over the years of the 'decade' to which you have referred.

Nothing, zilch, nada.

No record of any offers made for one Leon Osman.

I think you should stop now.

Now I know it isn't the 'proof' that you might want Michael and Eugene, but 2 minutes searching just brought these up. I would say that the pair of you have just made yourselves look pretty stupid with your responses to Dave.

I don't expect you to admit it, and no doubt you'll come back with something that you think is really intelligent and cutting but for me, you're wrong.

I was stating that I rate Ossie(centrally not as a winger) and that he didn't cost us a penny in transfers.

I STILL refuse to believe that nobody has bid (or enquired Eugene) after all this time.

I doubt there is a player in world football who has played at one club for so long and not atrracted the interest of another manager. As Dave Wilson said, every day managers and agents are chatting to each other about potential moves. Every player must be discussed at one point. Every window there are countless transfers and deals that didn't quite come off.

In this context I don't think proof is needed. Just common sense. Surely that sounds reasonable??

There is no need to get into a slanging match about it.

Sadly Moyes turned it down. I think it was a loan offer. That would have been good enough for me. Anything to get rid of the mard arse.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better loking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I used to have a girlfriend
but she just couldn't compete
with all of these love starved women
who keep clamoring at my feet.
Well I prob'ly could find me another
but I guess they're all in awe of me.
Who cares, I never get lonesome
cause I treasure my own company.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
I guess you could say I'm a loner,
a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.
I could have lots of friends if I want to
but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
Some folks say that I'm egotistical.
Hell, I don't even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do with the way that I
fill out my skin tight blue jeans.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.
We're doing the best that we can

#1: "Norwich in laughable Osman bid" ? no source given; no comment necessary!

#2: Osman to Palermo... that's the one that comes closest, and it does ring a bell now. No mention of an offer though, and it honestly looks like one of the many made-up ones that has no legs. If you want to believe that qualifies as one of Dave's "offers from others throughout the best part of a decade", then so be it. I don't.

#3: "Derby tried to buy him" ? That's not what the records suggest, and there was never a bid or an offer because he was never for sale. Burley wanted to keep him for as long as he could. Osman was just into a one-month loan when that was said, the loan was extended one month... then another month... to the end of the season. And Burley indeed kept him for as long as he could.

"Everton wanted him enough to turn down offers from others throughout the best part of a decade." ? True statement? No, I don't think so. But how about these alternatives:

"Everton wanted him enough that it discouraged offers from other clubs throughout the best part of a decade." ? Yes, I would believe that.

"Everton wanted him enough that other clubs knew it was pointless even making offers throughout the best part of a decade." ? Yes, I would believe that.

However, I don't think any of these are really close to the truth, which I would say is simply "Everton have been Osman's club throughout the best part of a decade." ? That's actually all you need to say if the question is about loyalty.

No need to make shit up about non-existent offers, and then argue the toss until we're all blue in the face.

Jaysus! When does the football start again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExykL5QnXY

Great stuff

Now, as for this argument/discussion/verbal equivalent of an out of body experience, Mr Wilson's involvement duly noted...

I have never seen a baby pigeon, but...

Lets be honest here. This isnt about Osman. Regular readers will be aware of the Editors persistant and concerted efforts to prove me a "liar".
Todays accusations that my "cliams are false", and his talk of my "current and past economy with the truth" are merely the latest of several bizzarre attempt to prove me a liar.

Its not about Eugene Ruane either, but just as he did #644 he either wiillingly or inadvertantly always seems to enter the fray.

Michael`s claims that there have been no rumours about Ossies moving were dismantled when the name Palermo was mentioned and his belief that two clubs could come to an understanding with Everton without an initial inquiry being made, is frankly preposterous. I cant do anything about him not believing me when I say I was told by Osman himself that Carlsile were interested, but thats one of the things that prompted my initial post.

I will enter no more pissing matches with Michael. He will never prove me a liar. Not today, not ever,

I take your point though Lyndon, Your post stopped my intended response dead in its tracks, these squabbles must be brain numbing for other members (who gives a shit indeed)

My appologies

"Its not about Eugene Ruane either, but just as he did #644 he either wiillingly or inadvertantly always seems to enter the fray"

A few months ago (six?) I made a decision NOT to get involved directly with Dave Wilson, as I came to realise facts are of no relevance when dealing with an alehouse lawyer.

So I stopped directly debating anything with him (nb: so even the statement above is bullshit)

Yesterday, due to boredom in work, and the sheer nonsense of his posts, I got involved.

It won"t happen again.