Is this the last chance for David Moyes to win something at Everton?

He is the longest serving manager at the club who hasn't won anything and I Imagine most blues would value the Premier League title as the No 1 priority. Next best prize would be the FA Cup... and bronze would be the League Cup. We are not in Europe so we should be concentrating on a domestic trophy or Euro qualification.

After these, I believe the derby is the most important issue, and considering DM's terrible record (3 wins in 10 years) why is he being described as a successful boss?

Are we really that bad that 8th position guarantees him total job security or do Evertonians feel he has long since peaked and time for a change must follow another barren season?

We really don't want hard physical matches in the run-up to the opening game. We need to get the players match fit and sharp for sure but don't need to do this with preseason games. We don't want any injuries, we lost Coleman and Rodwell last time around and those players had a pretty awful season form- and confidence-wise.

It all kicks off with Man Utd and any result from this game will be good for confidence. If we come out of the blocks too fast, are we liable to burn out and fall away towards season end? We have a small squad and the bench players are either kids or or a backup keeper. It's a long season so managing the players over the 38 games is paramount to having some success this time around.

Let's see where we are after 10 games and see if we are playing reasonable football. I don't think it's going to be pretty and of course the first priority is getting to 40pts to ensure our status in the Prem. We have David Moyes, the best manager in the world, too good for the likes of Chelsea, Spurs or Villa, so we should do well.

We don't have the misfiring Saha and Cahill in the ranks so perhaps Jelly and Naismith will be more productive. Time will tell so lets not get too hung up on pre-season games... it's not like they count for anything. COYB

Doesn't the Championship start this week?
And the Scottish clubs already kicked off?

So we're behind them in getting to match fitness.

I would argue these friendlies are just right for us. Teams that are currently fitter than us but with less ability.

We could of course pick teams that are fitter than us and that have more ability, but all we'd do is run around, and we can do that at Finch Farm.

Dont agree with the statement about "see were we are after 10 games", look where Newcastle were after 10 games and they never looked back.

A good start is so important and given the quality of opposition in the games played so far and the form I am concerned we will have the normal crap start.

What happens if the second half of the season is poor too...

Moyes knows what he is doing????? I hope.........

Big picture though I personally believe we are still two or three players short in the squad to really push for a european place, the right midfield area is still looking poor, lets face it I have read a few posts on here and playing Rodwell or Osman here is not the answer, or the Big Vic solution.

Donovan, all well and good but we have to wait until November for ten games

Cant give a solution there I suppose as we don't know how empty the pot is?

Looking forward to the start of the season, and on another note is anyone watching the New Zealand ladies Hockey team, woody time......

I see Man U are playing Barcelona in a friendly while we continue to play the Tranmere's of the world and do not even take the lads away for a jolly having cancelled the Indonesia trip.

Wonder why we are always playing catch up!!!!

Anto

"of course the first priority is getting to 40pts to ensure our status in the Prem."

We've just had the entire off season with Moyes devotees telling us that's not the case - don't let the cat out the bag this early mate!

Jay 90% of causallity is financial, we havn't got a pot to piss in which is why are invoved in tin pot tornaments that we don't do due dilligance on, have the smallest squad in the premiership, out sorce all or merchandise sales but blue Bills one of us and apparently our saviour to the ill informed.

Anto; IMWT eh, slow and steady, it's a marathon not a sprint, see where we are in Nov....and out of that same box from years gone by...' I have in my hand this paper signed by Herr Hitler '

@ Richard Jones # 133 and BK used to be in the Boys Pen too so he's well qualified to be the owner.

Fitness is a concern though I don't quite see how Baines coming back late is Moyes' fault...he was on international duty FFS!

In the last few seasons I have believed that the poor starts have been mostly down to squad disruption and unsurety. This time around the club have done well to get in the likes of Pienaar and Niasmith pretty early and I reckon we won't be seeing any big departures so if we start badly again there will be nothing to point the finger at other than pre-season preparation.

Bit of an over-reaction I think.

Afterall what have we learnt so far ?

1. Coleman has no final pass or shot and as such is ineffective.
2. Osman aint good enaough on the right hand side but thats not his fault.
3. Rodwell somehow manages to become invisable when he walks on a pitch.
4. Anichebe is shit.

One final thing, anyone thinking we shouldnt have paid 4.5m for pienaar must be off their head ! He is our most creative player by a country mile...

"Afterall what have we learnt so far ?

1. Coleman has no final pass or shot and as such is ineffective.
2. Osman aint good enaough on the right hand side but thats not his fault.
3. Rodwell somehow manages to become invisable when he walks on a pitch.
4. Anichebe is shit"

Exactly Mike, and we already knew this so we shouldn't be that concerned about it.

Part of me thinks starting against United is what we need to start the new season because we usually get up for it against them. But then again part of me thinks they will be so far ahead of us that they will hammer us and and our morale will be lower that Dachshund's dick.
Then before the next game we will hear the inevitable "our season starts now" from Captain Nev.
Sigh.

Anto (123)

"We really don't want hard physical matches in the run-up to the opening game."

I'm not sure which way you're making this point Anto, is it to defend or criticize the pre-season games we've played?

I'd argue that in playing lower league and Scottish opposition, we're selecting physical matches, when we should be playing top level foreign opponents whose technique will take priority over physicality. It's then not hard to argue that we've successfully done both with AEK and Malaga still to come, although I'd want a slightly higher standard.

Another point is that the Scottish and lower league seasons start before ours, so their players should be a week or two ahead in their preparations. In the end it comes down to what you said, one pre-season performance shouldn't be over analysed; we simply won't know what any of this means until ten games in.

I`m not expecting anything to be different this time round with Everton echoing what we`ve seen in the Velodrome – a number of slow laps (the early season) re-positioning in mid-race and then a sprint to the finish.

I just don't think we've ever had the resources to go full pelt through a Prem season, so Moyes has preferred to be pushing the medalists at the end rather than blow up in mid-race. Forecast: 7/8th.

Good grief, pre-season defeats mean little or nothing, the games are a chance to gain match fitness, if the Blackpool game showed we aren't quite match fit then the idea is surely that we make up the difference in the remaining couple of friendlies.

I remember watching Everton destroy Preston in a friendly many moons (about ten years perhaps) ago and I thought the team was destined for a cracking season. They narrowly avoided relegation. I also went to Turf Moor and saw them perform incredibly badly so I feared the worst - they went on to finish fourth. In summary, don't get into a lather about a bad pre-season result.

Moreover there's a school of thought that says that matches against poorer opposition are more competitive because the opponents are more up for it. Either way though I'm sure the management team have considered that we often start poorly and are thinking of ways to combat it - I reckon they've probably put quite a bit of thought into what we're doing and dare I say it they probably know a bit more than us about how to prepare professional athletes for the new season.

There's plenty to moan about at Everton - but let's not fall into the trap of moaning about absolutely everything, there's people on here whose first thought after a 5-1 win would be to complain about the defending on the goal conceded.

Chris you cant get away from the size of our suad mate!!

Pre season or the lack of it has been a real worry! We have only really played one match where the majority of the team are first team players. That is a pretty risky thing to do going into august.

The size of the squad is a problem, I don't dispute that and probably one of the reasons the management have to try to find a balance between getting the players ready and tiring them out early - our resources are spread thinly as it is.

The fact that not many first teamers have played together in one match is largely down to international duty, not much that can be done about that and most other teams will be in the same boat.

Does anyone have the stats for how many friendlies we have prior to the season this time up against how many we've had in the past? Are there significantly less?

We're certainly only playing one less than was planned before summer started - ie seven rather than eight because of the lack of the Indonesian thing and bases have been covered by using the likes of Barkley/McAleny in Everton XI games as well to ensure fringe players are up to speed.

I think the youngsters will have a bigger part to play this season due to dwindling squad numbers and a fair few first teamers who are 30 or over and maybe needing of a rest.

Time will tell whether the likes of Barkley, Rodwell, Duffy, Coleman, Vellios and Mcaleny are ready to perform and step up on the big stage. I've not seen enough in pre-season that convinces me that they are but hopefully i'm wrong...

Another pointless over-reaction article...I also love the idea that we won't be fit by November...with that logic, pre-season training should start before the season ends.

Firstly, for those worried about pre-season results, look at what the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs are doing...and check the results of previous seasons...there is absolutely no relevance between pre-season and season performance. We've had good pre-seasons and still started horribly, whilst last season Liverpool had a very good pre-season, and City a relatively poor one.

With respect to Blackpool, they have to be more fit, because they play a cup match 8 days before we play Manchester United. In 8 days time, we will look a lot fitter and sharper. We've also had several of our players return from Euro 2012 duty, and they are clearly not going to be ready yet, whilst Pienarr only joined recently, and Naismith has been injured. This is not just relevant to us, Silva and Balotelli look like missing the season start, as do Podolski and Giround, who Wenger thinks might only get one pre-season match before it kicks off. I don't think a premierleague team will begin the season with a fully fit team, and teams probaly will not be fully fit until after the international break in September.

Everyone needs to relax, there has been far to many concerned posts because of a pointless pre-season match.

Instead of ignorant opinion based on no fact, why not look at everyone's preseason fixtures. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2142413/Premier-League-pre-season-fixtures-results-2012.html.

You tell me how our preseason differs from just about every other club? And keep in mind that United get to play Barcelona because it's also financially beneficial to Barcelona. It's not just a first come first serve you know. And we did have a decent fixture lined up but it was cancelled. And we have Athens and Malaga up next, two very solid teams. Enough of the overreaction over a loss to Blackpool. Chelsea just lost to Brighton, Villa to Forest, City to Oldham, and on and on.

I have to completely disagree with this whole 'its not too bad so far, lets see after 10 games' rubbish. Thats over 1/4 of the season! Have you people looked at the fixture list?

We have a tough game to kick off with and always seem to struggle against villa, however after those two come 6 (yes six) league games on the trot against the likes of mighty Wigan, Southampton, QPR, West Brom, Newcastle (at home), Swansea, teams we should be looking to take 3 points from if we are going to have a serious go this year. If we mess up in these games, we are going to struggle to catch up for the rest of the season as the harder games come mid to end of season for us this year.

Add to that confidence is crucial in football so to build up a head of steam for the season, we need to start well. Especially so as to be in good form coming into the first derby at the end of Oct - our ninth league game. The derby game is then followed by games against the all conquering Fulham, Sunderland, Reading and Norwich!

Last year we had a lot of tough fixtures in the first 6-8 games, which to an extent explained our poor start and lack of confidence. This year however, that is not the case. No team in the league has the devine right to win any single game but this season we could not have asked for an easier first dozen games or so.

We really need to start winning early on and get a few 3 pointers on the board from the first 12-13 games. To emphasise, our first game away to any of the teams that finished in the top six last year, is away to Arsenal - on 28th November, or in other words, our 14th league game, almost half way through the season.

I would take two draws from the opening two games right now, assuming we could then kick on and get good results in most of the next 10. I just cannot believe people are suggesting we use the first 10 games of the season to get ready for.....erm..... the season! Just after we've played all the 'lesser' teams and then start playing the really strong ones.

The fixture list this year before xmas, is as good as it can get to get off to a flyer and try and do what the barcodes did last year.

It's not all doom and gloom. I think I've found Moyes a perfect replacement for Cahill: Alex Morgan. What a player!

Just to add, I don't really care about the results of preseason friendlies but if we do our usual shite start routine this year, we will be f'cked, as we'll have to trun it around whilst playing against all the top sides in the second half of the season.

I'll forgive (just) not so good results against the mancs and away to villa, but after that there is no excuse for not getting plenty of points on the board up to end of November.

Soon it'll be...

"It's only one game" (after a thrashing by United)

"It's only a couple of games" (after dismal displays for the first 4 games)

"We always start slow" (when we're languishing in the bottom half at christmas)

The team we appear to be going into the season with is weaker than the team which we finished the season with... that's problematic. We are missing first team players in key positions... positions that Mr Moyes in his infinite wisdowm has never seemed to want to fill with players who actually play those positions.

We have not strengthened and people should be SHOUTING THEIR HEADS OFF at our pre-season — not making feeble excuses.

I don't get people who are happy at being served crap.

Funny, saying preseason is about building confidence, when the top sides hardly play their starting 11 in preseason. Hell, United just played a match and Fergie wasn't even there, looks like it really matters to him doesn't it. So what's it about for them then? Probably the same it is for just about every manager, build up fitness, get any new players in, AND DON'T GET INJURIES!! That's it, it is preseason, it means nothing.

I will argue till I'm blue in the face but to my mind, size of squad and pre-season uncertainty regarding personnel are certainly contributing factors but lack of quality top class opposition in pre-season is the major factor. I certainly don't think fitness is ever an issue with Everton but facing the likes of Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd etc who play quick-thinking, one touch, pass and move football demands 100% MENTAL sharpness - and you don't get that playing against hard-working but limited lower league opposition.

Ray,

We're playing Malaga in our final match, the team who finished 4th in La Liga last season. Do they not play shartp, one touch pass and move football over at Malaga in Spain? Don't the likes of Chelsea, United, etc play weaker opposition during preseason and mix in a couple of decent sides? We had set up being in a tournament where we would most likely face Galatasaray, a very good side. We will be playing Athens, a solid side, and then Malaga, who as I said finished 4th in Spain and are a very good side. If you're asking us to set up a preseason against only United, Barcelona, Real Madrid and AC Milan there's only one way for that to happen, for Everton to join the MLS.

Spot on Ray.

In the final two weeks of pre-season you do not want to cram in as many games as possible in a desperate attempt to improve fitness. By this stage it is pretty much as good as it is likely to get for those players who have gone through the normal training regime, or those who had an extended end to the last season due to international duty.

This phase of pre-season is about ramping up the intensity to improve match sharpness. The players should be looking as if they are taking things seriously from here on in, and hopefully that will lead to improved performance otherwise it will take an enormous psychological push to kick them into gear for the United game.

We want a good start because it will instil confidence which players need to operate at their peak, and so hopefully lead to a better season overall. Generating early momentum is the key for me. I don't think there is a danger that we can start too quickly and burn out in the second half of the season as Moyes has shown he can get the players to last (though bad luck with injuries could really scupper us).

Tony (#147), did you forget to put this at the end of your post '!?!?!?!' ?

"if we do our usual shite start routine, we will be fcked, as we`ll have to turn it around whilst playing against all the top sides in the second half of the season."

Do we normally avoid playing them in the second half of the season then?

I really wish people would ditch this obsession with a "good start". You have to play every team twice and few teams will be in the same form and have the same players available for the second match as they did the first. A good start means nothing if you have a weak finish.

It would be nice to blast out of the traps, but I'd trade more consistent performances spread over the season for a "good start" any day of the week.

It's preseason and, as David Barks points out, many of the other Prem teams are sacrificing results for preparation too.

No point in moaning about the size of our squad either, we all knew it would be this small, just as we know it will always be while Kenright remains in charge. We go with what we`ve got.

Bring on the Mancs, We`ll see if their prestige preseason games against the likes of Barca count for anything at all when they come to GP on the 20th. I don't think it will and I cant wait.

David #185. I thought we had got this year's pre-season sorted but the fact is that, for reasons outside our control, we are not playing Galatasaray. I don't necessarily agree that AEK are top class opposition but it's a step in the right direction. Malaga will be an excellent test.

In general though, our pre-seasons don't ratchet up the players' mental preparedness, in my opinion. The year we lost 6-1 to Arsenal in the first match was put down by a lot of people to the Lescott affair but, if I remember rightly, Arsenal had warmed up against prestigious opposition and were razor-sharp and we hadn't. Even taking out the Lescott factor, we were woefully under-prepared mentally to cope with Arsenal's brand of football.

It's just an opinion, I know.

What rings the alarm bell is we've seen this far too many times.

Quoting others cack pre season may be heartwarming but they tend to do other things like winning trophies when the season starts.

I've noticed we don't.

What have we seen too many times?

If other teams have a poor pre-season but still win trophies then surely it's a logical extension to assume that we're barking up the wrong tree by blaming anything on a poor pre-season — unless you're suggesting that a poor pre-season affects some teams but not others. In turn, that would make it a near impossible problem to solve.

Ciaràn McGlone —- I don't really see how our squad is "weaker than the team which we finished the season with". Drenthe and Straq have gone home, neither of which really played in our run in. We've sold Cahill who was playing utter crap all last season and gained Naismith. The team we put out on the opening day can be exactly the same as the one that drew 4-4 at Old Trafford.

Admittedly we stil need to sort our problems out on the right side of midfield but other than that the squad strength is about the same.

Chris Hutcheon: "barking up the wrong tree"?

You mean there may be something we do differently during the season compared to others!!!!

It is a thought.........

I wonder if we played attac......

I'll stop right there before I upset the horses.

Obviously we do something differently during the season, we don't win as many matches as others... but is that down to pre-season? Well arguably not if others are rubbish pre-season but still win stuff.

This post/thread is about pre-season problems impacting on the season though, rather than just what happens during the season, so I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make.

Dave Wilson (#190), "It would be nice to blast out of the traps, but I'd trade more consistent performances spread over the season for a "good start" any day of the week."

So consistently bad would keep you happy then???

People want us to start well (not necessarily 'blast out of the traps') because that is the only way to have a consistently good season, and over the last few seasons we have been blighted by slow / poor starts.

Winning games breeds confidence, which helps you to keep winning games. Improving performances when confidence is low or the pressure is mounting is a lot more difficult.

Chris

I was just agreeing with your premise that it ain't just pre-season that's to cock.

It's symptomatic of a style of management that continues until we're out of all competitions and the derbies are done.

But it keeps us out the bottom 3 and as Anto Byrne posted that's the main thing.

Dave (#190), I am not sure if you really understood my post. I find it hard to understand parts of yours. I quote:

'I really wish people would ditch this obsession with a "good start". You have to play every team twice and few teams will be in the same form and have the same players available for the second match as they did the first. A good start means nothing if you have a weak finish.'

How can you say that people should stop going on about wanting 'a good start'? If you care to look at the first 15-20 games of the season for the last 4-5 years, then you might understand why. We may play every team twice over the season but if you look at the fixture list this year, you will see that most of our tough games (home and away) come in the middle and end of the season. Therefore, if we have our usual shite start (see last few years for reference), it would make it a bit harder to catch up.

Or do you like the fact that we are nearer the relegation zone come Xmas most seasons and give ourselves the extra 'challenge' of having to have a very good second half of the season to get a respectable league position? It would be too boring otherwise I guess!

What would happen if ........(wait for it)........we started AND finished well? A good start may mean nothing with a weak finish, as you say, but it would be nice to have a good start AND a good finish, for once. Also, one of these seasons, we will not have a good finish and, without a good start... you do the maths.

Barry - just interested as to where do you think we should realistically finish in the league assuming that we didn't have the guy, who you hate with a passion bordering on the pathological, as manager?

Ciaran and Paul, I think you are both right. We are not weaker but we have not strengthened either. The general consenus is that we have swapped Naismith for Cahill and we have kept Pienaar. Drenthe didn't get a look in for parts of last season and Strac didn't make that much of an impression.

I think it has been a strange transfer window and not one that I have been expecting to date. If I'm honest I didn't see Cahill leaving but then I did expect one of our big name players to be gone by now. Considering how we have freed up wages by releasing players, I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of loan players come in. But, I also wouldn't be surprised to see this money go to the banks in lieu of players being sold.

Anyone see the snippet in I think either today's Sun or Express that states that Duffy is going out on loan to Tranmere? I don't know what to think if it's true. There are centre backs ahead of him so he won't get a regular game. I can understand the loan but I did hope to see him get more games with us this season and really add to the squad.

Ciaran...what feeble excuses? Pre-season doesn't matter... it's for fitness purposes! Teams prove every season that pre-season results are not an appropriate indicator of season performance…I remember us having a cracking pre-season in 2010, and then the league games began…

We do not start the season badly because of losing pre-season games… there are many potential reasons, most notably the loss of key personnel over the past few seasons, the lack of incoming first team players, and all manner of squad unrest because City or Arsenal or United are being continually linked with someone in our team. But pre-season means fuck all, as long as get our players match fit.

My primary concern going into this season, is a lack of creativity in depth, and the lack of a natural right sided midfield player, and I didn’t need a pre-season match to tell me that.

Everyone relax, this is more reactionary than the myriads of posts we get when we lose a league to someone. And I reckon if we beat Malaga in a few days, several ‘Everton for Champions League’ football threads will pop up. But they, like these, will lack value, because pre-season friendly matches are not a barometer of anything.

Chris,

I'd be happy with mid table if I saw evidence of decent football, passion, a game plan beyond "every one back!", and some decent youth development, particularly in the creative dept.

You know the purple patch we have when Donovan arrives untainted by the Moyes prep, that's the game.

Results take care of themselves when creative players are included and allowed to play. We get to circa 8th by arsing around for half a season — can you imagine what might happen if someone was actively managing the situation?

This wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing isn't managing — it's caretaking.

Yeah Barry, last season we were just arsing around for half a season... must have just been a coincidence that the inclusion of the creative player we desperately needed, the finisher we've needed for several seasons, and a talented right winger, led to our improvement in form.

Our tiny squad, with first team gems like Osman and Hibbert, should be finishing much higher in this league. I mean why are the likes of Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal finishing above us anyway? We clearly have better players.

Yawn.

Jim

Don't blame you for yawning — I'm as tired of the excuses as you are... but what can you do?

Ciaran, this is, as you say, exactly the time to be complaining. Our pre-season is a joke and I am appalled that Evertonians are happy with it. The usual response is along the lines of "we are not happy but prefer not to moan".

Richard, your theory that "Davey" prefers the velodrome mode is, at best, utterly asinine... As is, I'm afraid Dave, your rebuke of people's obsession with a good start.

I cannot believe that any thinking person feels that good starts or good finishes are options and that David Moyes opts for the latter. A good start builds confidence, galavanizes support, and can drag a team to beyond what seems achievable. A good finish builds hope for next year which can then be dashed.

If we start as badly as previous years the position of David Moyes should be untenable. What position, by the end of October, would be unacceptable to his admirers, considering the optimism that is around now? I am obsessed with a good start and I can't understand anyone who isn't.

Kieran, I heard about that Duffy story – not a rumour, apparently. I have already sent a post to the mailbag about it asking for confirmation.

Frankly, I am too angry and upset to think about it.

Craig agree completely she was fantastic

There seems to be didvided opinion on whether good results preseason matter or not and whether it is just fitness building.

My concern this preseason is that most of the players we would consider first team have hardly had a game and against Blackpool in particular looked half hearted and half fit.

We have only two games to get a squad of 15-20 players ready for the Premier League.

Are you really not concerned at this point from what we have seen so far.

The usual 'anti-everything,' rabble were mentioning relegation & Everton in the same sentence after just SIX games last season..

..and again were shown-up as the knee-jerk merchants that they are.

Now we're practically being written off before a ball has even been kicked!!

A new low for the MOB.

(and frankly pointless debating with them anymore...)

I'm very optimistic about our start to the season. Jelavic, Pienaar and Gibson have made us a lot stronger than at the start of last season. Rodwell has been written off by many, which I can understand as he had a disappointing season but I still believe he can be a huge asset for us. Surely him and Coleman must improve if their performances of last season? Add Barkley to the mix good reasons to be optimistic.

Not that we could afford him but would anybody fancy trying to get Carroll on loan?

Jim,

If you acknowledge that there are various other malevolent factors that contribute to our poor form/starts/performances... then why in god's name are you not screaming your head off about them – rather than defending a crappy pre-season game?

If you think I was simply talking about the result you are very much mistaken.

It's about the state of the team/club/business... take your pick.

Andy, why do you associate pre-season form with league form? please prove to me a relationship between the two. As I have mentioned, we had a great pre-season in 2010, and a dismal start in the league. Most of the top premiership side have had poor pre-results, and last season proved that pre-season form has nothing to do with the actual season(as every season does). Even more recently, the performance of Italy in friendlies prior to the Euros illustrated the pointlessness of judging a team on the basis of friendly matches.

Many of the posters on here, are judging us on the basis of one performance, with some obviously half fit players (i.e those returning late from Euro duty, or from injury, or because they have joined the club only recently). Most of these posting ignore the fact that Blackpool play a competitive game 8 days before we do, and therefore have to be comparatively more ready.

Please don't mistake pre-season form as portending results come mid-august. We started last season badly, because our team was very poor, until the introduction of Pienarr, Jelavic, Donovan and Gibson improved us. This season, our team is better, and will do better, although we still need to add depth and a right sided player.

I thought we might have had a go at signing Bellamy.

He might not have the legs for a full season anymore but he'd be what we need until the usual Donovan loan.

Jim, sorry,I didn't make my point clear. As I suggested on the Blackpool thread,I don't think pre season results are important at all What I meant was that the signing of Naismith,and I think it was a good signing,is IT really.

I criticise our pre season because of the utter like of any kind of statement of intent from the club that we are important. Jim, how about something along the lines of a joint statement from Moyes and Kenwright.

"The manager may add to the squad if possible but no one will be sold"

Would that make you happy? It would do for me.

Kevin, as one of the "knee jerk" merchants you refer to, can I ask you a few questions:

Do you think our squad is good enough to be in the top ten by 1st October?

Do you think that bottom three by that date is acceptable?

Where would Everton have to be before you might consider that a change of coach would be thinkable?

Finally, and unrelated to the subject, what are your views on our coach boosting his obviously meagre salary, by moonlighting on TV and in the press, offering mundane and utterly mind-numbing observations. Do you think that those appearances served Moyes, Everton, both, or neither?

Andy, Moyes at the Euros was a club-funded scouting mission. Surely our recent signings show it was a sucessful one?

Just out of curiosity I had a look at Newcastle's pre-season games to see who they had been playing. As hopefully we will be competing with them for a top 6 finish. This is who they have played/are playing this pre season.

Fri 13 Chemnitzer Stadion an der Gellertstraße
Mon 16 AS Monaco Hacker-Pschoor-Arena
Sat 21 Fenerbahce Stadium Sopron
Fri 27 Olympiacos Algarve Stadium
Sat 28 SC Braga Algarve Stadium
Sat 04 Den Haag Kyocera Stadium
Sat 11 Cardiff City Cardiff City Stadium

Slightly better then our pre-season I think, just watch Newcastle start a lot better then us.

I think if the goal is to avoid relegation then our pre-season is great. Just imagine how well Man Utd will benefit from playing Barcelona, that is some test!

Meanwhile, we are playing AEK Athens, not the kind of stuff erections are made of is it? Hard for any player or fan to be exited by the teams we are playing.

When the season starts, we should by ready to steamroller through anyone, but that will not happen by playing Athens and Malaga.

I think pre-season is just as much about the fans getting to see us play big European sides for once, but that will never happen as long as Moyes is here. He needs to liven things up for the plaayers so they avoid growing tired of the same year after year.

Andy,

I DO think our squad is good enough to be in the top ten come October.

Bottom three would be not acceptable, and don't believe for one minute that this will happen.

Everton would have to be overwhelmingly in trouble before I would countenance a change of manager.

To answer your aside, I care not a jot that Moyes also operates as a pundit. I fail to see how anyone could have any problem with that – cheers.

Jimmy, I seem to remember us playing Werder Bremen and Villarreal in recent seasons who at the time were very good European outfits. I also remember Cahill breaking his foot in both of them and other injuries that actually hampered the start of our season.

The main point is that only clubs at our level are going to agree to play us. Why would Barcelona? It would be no test for them nor bring them any commercial reward. Every top club in Europe will be thinking the same.

Don't Malaga have Champions League football this year? They'll be a good test. I actually remember people complaining after the Werder Bremen and Villarreal games, and commercial jaunts like the MLS All-Stars match, that Moyes should instead be playing top Championship sides to get us ready for the league rather than European commercial exhibitions. We've done that this season playing Blackpool and now people are complaining that we're not playing any top European sides.

I don't think the identity of pre-season opponents has anything to do with how Everton start. Man Utd play all sorts from Asia one year then the US the next and it doesn't make a difference. There must be another reason behind the slow starts.

James whoever they organize our pre season programme with... Surely the club should make sure that the competion are capable of staging the game, ie, by doing some sort of due diligence. This was our spread-the-word tournament, ie, marketing and we fucked it up again...

James — is there anything that you won't appologize for?

Our poor starts over the last few years have had much less to do with a lack of fitness than they have the inability to hit a barn door. We've played some good football the couple of Augusts/Septembers and the players have looked in good shape. Always just lacked the end product.

So 60 minutes into the AEK Athens game, we're 4-1 up, to all the ones who were saying we're in terrible shape after the Blackpool game, does this now mean we're in great shape? Ha!

Wait till the season starts before moaning, jeez!

I've seen us win all our pre-season games in pretty good style before now and just about stay up! I don't read anything into them. Obviously others read a hell of a lot in to it.

I say, let's see how we are against Man Utd.

My point was more about the fact that we couldnt organize a piss up in the proverbial Lee!!!

If that's the case Richard, then my point probably wasn't meant for you!

I remember us starting one season with an untried Jack Rodwell and Phil Jagielka in centre midfield. In other seasons we have seen high profile players on the verge of leaving.

Despite rumours Baines and Fellaini are no nearer leaving and for once it looks like we will going into a season with a settled squad and, so long as we can avoid an injury crisis, cover in nearly all positions.

If we still have a poor start it will be hard to find excuses but I don't think it's as simple as linking each poor start to poor fitness.

Rob, this has been the most settled I have seen things in many years. It may genuinely make a difference this year. I also don't see the need for travelling long distances abroad if we don't have to. Yes, I can see the commercial value of a tournament in America but we are not a big enough draw on our own to make it worth our while. Also, the club doesn't have the commercial nous to make the most of the effort.

James, the point is that we should be able to play attractive popular teams, of course we will not get to play Barcelona, but we should aim high anyway!

You have Benfica,Sporting, different German teams, and many top teams that play in the Europa League or Champions League.
That is the kind of hard to beat teams we should be playing during our pre-season.

Motherwell,Dundee and Blackpool is not even close to being who we need to play.

Also I think we have too few games this pre-season, as perhaps is the case with previous pre-seasons.
How is Baines and Pienaar suppose to be ready only having played around 3-4 games, that just makes my point clear as day.

Players get hurt no matter who we play so the only right thing to do is make sure the WHOLE team is ready by the time the real season starts.
That is when we need to win, be as fit and match sharp as possible, not come December!!!!

I ask myself many times, are not the majority of Everton fans just disgusted with our usual slow starts by now?
Generally people seem to not care that much, until we are in November and struggle to lie above the relegation zone.

Foresight is what is lacking, how to be not only 100% fit but most importantly match sharp!
There is no way Jelavic or Naismith will be match sharp by the Man.United game, I just find it really strange that so few people see what is lacking from our pre-season.

The worst of all Moyes head seems stuck up his own rear too much to see what is missing.
Maybe he is to busy polishing all his "Manager of the year awards" to see reason.
But after ten years in the Premier League we would think he had learned along the way, but the usually slow start is here to stay unless Moyes really tries to change.

While at the AEK Athens game I noticed how tired some of the players were 70 minutes in. Osman was dead on his feet as were others. 1 and a half weeks away from a fixture with Man.Utd that to me doesn't look good. We should be up to standard by now. I reckon we'll see some poor substitutions against Man.Utd based purely on player fitness. I can see another slow start to the season if we don't get the fitness levels correct. Considering we have "state of the art" training facilities, what the hell is going on pre-season?