I'm going to wait for a very interesting December schedule to make any grand decisions about where we stand. But I would think Felli is considering his options at this moment... £30 million?

One win in six is lower table form, not Champions League contender form. Especially when you consider Wigan, Reading, QPR and Fulham are included in that run. We have very tough games coming up against Man City, Arsenal, Tottenham and Chelsea... I fear we may start slipping down the table.

Must admit I have to agree with you; the guy can see that – although we have been playing some fantastic football so far this season, barring West Brom, Leeds and yesterday – we don't have the strength in depth to go that extra mile whats required.

With Pip being injured yesterday, Moyes will move Johnny to play alongside Osman (still no assurance that Gibbo will be fit)... Is this a top four partnership? Of course not.

Fellaini is playing his best football at the moment and really we should be looking at cashing in, £35 million plus. I am sure there are players out there that could fill the void left and with the money left from that fill other gaps: another forward if Jelavic is injured, a centre back and a right back.

I am sure I will get a tsunami of comments saying we are not a selling club and we shouldn't be selling our best players; unfortunately, we are and we have to.

On another comment, I am sure that all the players got a huge shot in the arm after Moyes's transfer window comments; after hearing him, there was only one phrase that came to my mind... FFS.

Got to agree.

Felli is indispensable for us right now, he's had a hand in assisting or scoring six out of our last seven goals, without him we'd be shafted. Let's see where we end up at the end of the season and then take then £30-odd million for him then.

Our biggest problem this season has been a lack of graft which has cost us points. Too many games (WBA springs to mind) where only one side wanted to win it.

We are entirely capable of finishing fourth, but the players need to go out in every game and really show they want it. There is one surefire way that we won't finish fourth, and that is if the players/fans/manager starts to believe that we're not good enough.

I've thought for a long time that much of the difference between a big club and a small club is in ambition and belief. If the players treated every game as a cup final then we'd easily end up in 4th, or higher.

Interestingly, having battered Fulham all game, Moyes decided to take off all of his strikers and bring on an extra defender, losing us points (lack of belief). Yesterday there was no such indecision from the Reading manager. He left two up top having gone 2-1 up, and they spent most of the final minutes in our half, preventing us from really putting them under pressure. I would like Moyes to have equal belief in our team.

Of course it's a knee-jerk reaction.

We've only lost one game and the mood on here is like we're gonna get relegated! We still have a chance of finishing in the top 4, we're still ahead of Arsenal and Spurs.

Moyes has said just this week that the squad isn't strong enough and used the Leeds game as his example. So no big news there. He knows we 're unlikely to be top four. We had a great first half yesterday without Gibson and Mirallas, but we just couldn't shoot. A stronger squad would have meant changes in the second half, but our bench was severely limited. Chelsea brought on Mata and Ramires as subs yesterday, and still lost, so whilst this is the sort of player we would sell the main stand for, it doesn't always work like that.

Fellaini is outstanding. We need to sell our arses to keep him. Moyes transfer dealings this year have been astonishing. The shame of it is just how desperate things had become before we spent (during the first half of last season) following a two year period of virtually nil investment.

Moyes worked miracles with the Rodwell money but it's too much to expect him to keep on recycling players and expect us to challenge the top six every year. I say invest to succeed, take a chance. This year surely is the year to take a plunge. That may not make economic sense but I simply can't see things getting any better than they are now, right now, with way we're playing. This is as good as it ever will be without investment.

Knee jerk. We all know we don't have strength in depth, but that's not to say that we need the strength because we don't know how the season will unfold.

Right now could be as bad as the injuries will get. We lost a single solitary game yesterday, that's all. We're ahead of all our main rivals for that 4th spot, if we would be so cavalier to dismiss WBA's form.

What's true today and at 2:59pm yesterday afternoon is that if we finish 4th he will likely stay, if we don't he definitely leaves.

I don't know about you lot but before the season started I was thinking a top 6 finish would be good, it's just the early bright start adjusted our optimism to think of top 4. The problem is that we would unlikely keep the big man by finishing out of the CL places.
As long as we are there or there abouts come new year we will still have a decent shout. The squad is admittedly thin though.
Lets just remember teams historically better than us are dropping points, and if we have our usual second half season thrust, we can make a good go of it.

I watched Fellaini's reaction at Full Time and he really did have the demeanour of someone that's had enough of this team. We all know we have a decent first eleven but when injuries and suspensions start to kick in we have to call on players who just aren't good enough to get you challenging for CL. Naismith/Coleman. Other players are also out of form, Jelavic/Piennar. Its just a case of January or the Summer when he goes. If I was a betting man, I would say January as he is able to play CL straight away. Obviously, we need a top price - £30 mill at least.

I can't go with your view Richard, on the basis that if he's had enough of the team as they are placed and performing now, then he would of had enough in the summer and had his move.

The decision for him to leave in January would be by Moyes, and would be entirely dependent on who is available to bring in on the big man's fee. The club hold the cards right now... oh, but then is there truth in the £24m release clause?

Nick, like the club held the cards with Lescott and Rooney? Rubbish - if the player wants gone - he'll be gone.

As the original poster, I can certainly say that this was no knee-jerk re-action but a cold hard look at what's in front of us.

One of those things is that, under the present owners, there is no money at this club; anyone who thinks that the club is going to invest to move on is deluding themselves. The only way the manager of this club will get any money is to sell one of the better players and then hopefully he'll get some back to re-invest... but aye don't shoot me – I'm only the messenger.

So we look at the squad and, bar from a few exceptions, it's basically full of journeyman and unproven youngsters. If this club wants to be serious about achieving success, the squad needs a major boost.

So this brings us back to the money problem: where the fuck's it coming from? Now I believe the big fella wants out; these guys spend everyday at Finch Farm – they know what's going on, they can see there's no fuckin' money coming in. Fellaini is setting his sights on regular Champions League and he knows he's not going to get it here. So. like a good chess game, sometimes you sacrifice a piece to save a game... Whilst he's the talk of the town, I'd get as much for him as we can and maybe we can improve the whole squad to enable the whole club to make longer sustained attacks on the league.

Another thing, it's not the fans thinking we won't get 4th that will cause that to happen, that's just utter bollox. What stops you getting to win things – and I suppose getting 4th for us is a win – is having a squad of mostly journeyman and having to sell your better players to try and improve because the owners do not put any money in... but aye, that's a whole new topic.

Be it January or the Summer. That's where the club hold the cards. Fellaini himself won't determine that.

Players come, players go - modern football I'm afraid.

No club is immune to agents, better wages, more medals elsewhere etc.

Really doesn't bother me anymore.

After yesterday, I wouldn't blame him If he went. He is the reason why we are 5th. Without him, I think we we would be about 15th or 16th. He is the heart and soul of our team.

The defending again was woeful, the midfield was nowhere to be seen... so we can only hope he stays with us till at least the end of the season.

I am getting worried; any more performances like that and I think he will be gone in January — let's hope not!

What an over reaction to only our second defeat of the season. Bad day at the office but still playing great football for the most part. Moyes has said today (Sky Goals on Sunday) that getting the balance right between attack and defence is a difficult one, but you cannot cater for two stupid mistakes by Coleman.

Stop stressing about Fellaini! Moyes has also said today that, if Fella can see we are going for it, he will be around (until at least the summer). He also wishes he had played Fella further upfield against the RS in last year's semi and it was his performance the following week against Man Utd that convinced him that playing behind the front man is his best position.

I just hope Moyes doesn't retreat into his defensive shell again. We will finish top six IMO if we keep creating this amount of chances; we just need to tighten up at the back. Oviedo on for Coleman please, Mr Moyes.

The reason we're are struggling is that our key creative players ( Pienaar and Baines) have lost form over the last 3 games or so , our key goalscorer is also struggling big time and we haven't found our best defence as yet. Howard is nervous this season, and like him or loathe him Hibbert is a100% better defender than Seamus and whatever centre backs we put out don't work. Heitinga is contributing nothing and for the first ime this season Jagielka looked as though he's had enough of covering both Heitinga and Coleman.I actually believe that when Heitinga plays, Baines is reluctant to push up as he knows Heitnga will get skinned if left on a one and one situation.

Jelavic needs wide players to give him crosses, and we are not providing him the amount we were last season/early this season . I don't know what's happened to Pienaar but he seems lost at the moment - he has too much freedom and we have lost that Baines/Pienaar combo. Get Pienaar wide left, working with Baines, get Mirallas back on the right, Hibbo and Distin back and

We have relied on Fellaini's strength and Mirallas's movement to open up defences, its about time our famously feared left combo got their act together again.

Gibson will be back this weekend after starting in the reserves today. Hopefully he'll be fit enough to start.

If so then Gibson and Hitz in the middle with Ossie playing the Fellaini role?

Definitely knee-jerk.

As for knowing when a player decides its time to move on...laughable! Perhaps you can give us next weeks lottery numbers whilst you're at it?

Great news that Gibbo lasted 63 minutes. Sam, not sure I can see Ossie in the (more forward) Felli role. I guess we might see one or other of Gibbo and the Hitz start alongside Ossie, and the other come on later as the replacement for whoever of the two starts.

Brent, he has played there before with good effect. If Mirallas is back then either him or Naismith could be better options.

For Norwich I can see Osman and Hitz in the middle and Naismith and Mirallas occupying the right and 'the hole,' whichever way round. Gibson should come on at some point, it'll be tough though, they'll be bouncing after beating United.

David it is a knee jerk reaction. That doesn't mean there isn't some sense in what you're saying, but I think we know there are still underlying problems that we're going to have to hope we can get through.

A bad result shifts perspective, what was an unbeaten run is now a run with only one win. Yes we've got Man City, Tottenham and Arsenal coming up, but so what? Are you saying we don't have a chance of winning those games? I think we could even be favourites for two of them, and although City did us last year, we'll raise ourselves for them as we have in the past.

Its a seriously disappointing result, but its not the end of the world. I said a while ago 15 pts would be excellent from the current run (starting with Fulham and ending after the 'tough' games mentioned) and around 12 would still be decent. We're only on 4 out of 9, but that just means we need to react well, beat Norwich and then win a game or two that we might not have been banking on.

If we don't do any of that, then I'll accept its fallen away. I just hope everyone else is right about Neville and I was wrong. So far one game, one shock defeat.

Even if we do sell Felli I doubt we'd see it all reinvested into the team. At least half would goto the banks and running costs. It's the way Everton work.

Sam,

I guess I was thinking that the wee man is playing so well where he is. But granted he can play further up, and in fact still gets into those more advanced positions as we've seen recently.

It's a knock and does point that we probably will not make the top 4. Best of the rest and all that.

However, spurs lost at home to Wigan and arsenal lost away to Norwich, so it looks like all the rest are trying to throw it away as well. We need to cut down on the wastefulness, get gibbo, hibbert, Mirallas in the side, and start taking our chances. The side is too attack minded to cover the personnel in the side, and is not taking its chances when we are on top in games.

"This is no knee-jerk reaction"

Oh really?

For me, things aren't helped by the obvious game of brinkmanship being played out in public between Moyes and the Board. His sulky comments on Friday, stating that there will be no money even for one loan signing in January, suggest that he is attempting to provoke Kenwright etc into handing over a few spare coppers before he will consider signing a new contract.

Although I have no time for the shameful lack of ambition this Board can be relied on to display, year on year, it can hardly inspire the players to perform when they know that the squad won't be strengthened and their places are safe – no matter how they play.

If Kenwright has an ego that could fill the Main Stand, Moyes's would probably occupy most of the Gwladys Street End!

Losing yesterday may be exactly what we needed! Hear me out!!

There have been a number of games where we have bossed it this season and not come away with the win, but away draws and our continued stay in the top 4 has protected the players from too much comeuppance.

Yes, we were ultimately robbed of two stone-wall penalties in the first half and, with fair refereeing this season, we would be 7 points better off (2 each from Wigan and Newcastle as well as the 3 from yesterday); but we can't do anything about the bad referees, we can do something about our finishing and our individual errors.

We are good enough to finish 4th. The players know it, but they also know that; after yesterday, it is up to them!

Think positive, if Fellaini goes Moyes stays, becuase we will end up midtable outside the top four and again all the doubters about Moyes ability, Spurs will not take him who else is he going to go too?.

Two things.
Forget £30 million plus — if he played elswhere that would be the going rate — we will sell him for around £20 million.

Mirallas will be perfect for the position playing off a forward

I was at Reading on Saturday and, to be frank, our performance in the second half was abject to say the least, I have stated on here before that my concerns with the current team are defensively based and the start of those problems emanated form the desire of Moyes to get Jagielka back into the team at any cost, which meant him tinkering with one of the best defences in the country last season.

The three central defenders but mainly Johnny and Sylvain have lost confidence as, in my opinion, they have lost their places unfairly, Moyes is trying to keep all three happy but the bottom line is he won't be able too.

They have not been helped I might add by the absence of Gibson and have been hindered by the inclusion of Coleman who, in my opinion, will never be good enough; his performance on Saturday was appalling and the QPR game away even worse. Bring back Tony Hibbert as soon as possible.

Someone commented on here about Fellaini and his body language at the end of the game — that was more down to the fact that he was bloody awful for most of it, indeed as was everyone else in the second half for that matter.

Now to my point: we are fine as a team, Gibson and Hibbert nearly back, Mirallas maybe another week... Pienaar has had a bad spell but will be back, therefore I am still as confident as ever. Yes, one win in six but lots of draws all away from home recently... look at the stats: we have played more away games than most, indeed at least two away games more than a lot of teams. Take West Ham, for example, who could go above us tonight, they have played 7 to our 5, as have Liverpool; this will be to our advantage over the coming weeks as long as we can perform in the big games coming up at Goodison, which I believe we can.

So not all doom and gloom, could have been a whole lot better, but it is what it is.

Back to an earlier point, I really do believe we have a team based on positional strengths that allows us to play 3-5-2 with wingbacks.

Come on, we didn't even deserve to lose the game! If that's all it took for Felli to want to leave us then good riddance!!

I realise that I am in the minority who thinks the chairman and manager are doing a cracking job – it's just about the very fine balance of squad numbers.

Ask Mark Hughes what its like to manage a huge squad of largely journeymen players and you see what happens. I hope that QPR don't sack him as the last thing I want is him looking for work when we lose our manager at the end of the season. As a leader, I wouldn't follow him into Tesco!!

What happened on Saturday is something that hasn't happened a great deal this year, ie, we lost. When Mirallas and Gibson come back and Pienaar and Jelavic resume normal service, we can push on. Let's face it, without CL we will definitely lose Baines and Felli at the end of the season — if not before.

As long as Everton get a good price for the big guy and there are ready made replacements, Felli is not irreplaceable if he wants to move on.

In regard to Fellaini, I don't believe he will leave in January... but, unless improvements are made – as one win out of the last 6 games is not good enough for the top 4 – he will leave in summer.

In January, I believe the club should be looking for a good experienced right back. This is not a knee-jerk reaction to the last couple of games as I commented on this a number of weeks ago. My reasoning for this is that other teams are aware of how strong our left side is and are starting to put more pressure down the right side.

Chris #265....we DID deserve to lose the game based on the 2nd half performance & the way we defended...granted in the first half there was only one team in it but we failed to take numerous chances which has become a worrying trend recently.

Unfortunately Moyes cannot see that Coleman is a liability and continues to pick him....the lad tries his hard and you can't fault his attitude but most of the time he is a headless chicken and without doubt he is a penalty waiting to happen EVERY week especially when playing at right back....he alone has cost the team 5pts over the past few weeks simply because he is not capable of doing the basics

Steven Pienaar is also not exempt from criticism as for the past few games I think he is believing his own publicity and strolling about the pitch, playing at walking pace without appearing to give a fuck....I'm not saying he isn't a good player cos he is...but he needs to step up and start producing the performances we all know he is capable of...

We have thrown points away regularly this season especially against the likes of Newcastle, Wigan, QPR, Fulham....we even gave The Shite a two goal start and although we did not lose these games that's 11 extra pts we SHOULD have had....We just need to start killing teams off and we'll be ok

Fellaini has been outstanding so far, but if we were to get an offer of over 30 mil I believe we have to take it. The team is getting older and we have to start filling in the cracks with some young blood. When the bid is made, reinvest it all into young players from lower down the table who are showing promise. Straight to mind Taarabt from QPR, Hoolahan from Norwich, Llana from Southampton. There is some promise in players further down they just need to play for better clubs to show off their skill. With a 30 mil investment we could almost buy a new team and have the depth to really challenge for a trophy.

The over reaction here is how good people think Felliani is, if another club offered anywhere near 30m I would snap there hands off.

Felliani has maybe had 5 top games this season thats hardly consistent world class, where was he in the derby? thats right he never turned up, I shall wait until a player has 2 and 3 great seasons ala Baines before I start to believe in the Felliani hype, he has done well of which there is no doubt but we have not even reached Christmas yet.

I think Fellaini has been fantastic since January Karl...it is not just based on a few games this season. He has also shown flurries of his ability in previous seasons, just without the consistency exhibited over the past year. Few players have the capacity to put in the performances he did against United, Fulham etc...he is utterly dominant in the air, a great tackler who has improved his touch, and now he seems to have added goalscoring to his game. I don't think there have been many central/attacking mids who have performed as consistently well as he has over the last 12 months. And he wasn't exactly a secret when we picked him up...there was a reason we broke our transfer record for him. He will leave in the summer, I'm almost certain of that. And I expect we will receive a figure approaching 30 million for him.

And Nelly, I don't think Moyes wants to pick Coleman. Hibbert has been injured, so what would u have done? The only other option was to place Neville at right back, whose lack of pace would have been exploited. On top of that, the injury to Gibson, Hitzelsperger's lack of fitness until recently, and the brilliant form of Fellaini in an AMC role, would have left us without a suitable replacement in central midfield if Neville had been moved to right back. Coleman is playing out of necessity imo, and will be out of the team when Hibbert returns. We need Hibbert back...we don't have funds to invest in a right back, when a cm/another creative wide player are more pressing concerns. Maybe in the summer we could nab Danny Simpson though, given his contract situation.

Danny Simpson? Fuck that! I don't want that Tulisa anywhere near Goodison!!!

I have to say Coleman has been copping it from everyone recently, people forget about everything that he offers us going forward and only now remember the mistakes. Yes, he is still only 23 and developing, and he will make mistakes, but I think we should continue with him as I still feel that he is the future and I am confident with Moyes's guidance he will cut out the mistakes.

Nobody even mentions his track back and goal-saving tackle and block on Saturday, which was superb. When the result goes against us, people just want to remember the bad stuff. I say give Seamus a bit of slack and stay behind him, particularly for the Norwich game where his attacking forays forward will be vital to us securing the win.

"This is not a knee-jerk reaction" Err yes that's exactly what it is.

Richard 137 With me not being Desmond Morris and tuned into the nuances of body language, could you explain to me what the difference is precisely between someone whose body language says that they have had enough of this team and someone who is pissed off that his team lost? Seems very subtle to the untrained eye.

Also - can we not score first from now on?

PS Coleman is a complete liability - bring back Hibbo

Hibbo will not be an improvement on Coleman. We need a class right back who is quick and disciplined. Maybe Moyes will realise this someday.

Regarding Fella, he needs to forget about moving and get on with the job in hand. He is playing very well in his new role but is not yet the finished article. Sure he will fetch a good fee when he finally leaves, if it is in the short term, but he is out of order giving ultimatums openly. It is probably a ploy to stir the pot by his agent who as we all know are businessmen looking for their cut.

On the other topic, Everton's problems are partly due to the old problem which is a poor tackling midfield. Gibson is the only strong tackler and has been sorely missed. The rest of the players in midfield are good in their own ways but lack the steel to win the ball back quickly.

Far too much is asked of the back four after possession is lost. When the Blues have the ball, they have looked good but, when they lose possession, they look very vulnerable.