Martinez laments penalty decisions and defensive lapses

Well done Mark Hughes going for positive substitutions. Shocking decision from Clattenburg, very hesitant on awarding penalty which means he wasn't convinced.

Our defending is woeful at times and it has cost us dearly with 8 draws so far this season. Moyesy would have sorted this!

The board won't fire him, it costs money....

I can only think that a top manager could turn this set of players into near league contenders.....near contenders that is.

I've had enough of Bob and his complete lack of reality, we should be top 4 with the best squad of players for years.

We might finish 8th if lucky

Man, I would have been irritated with a draw after going up 3-2 with time to see out the win.

Loser is right David Barks.

I think my gout is less painful after watching that. Goodnight all it can only get worse.

How about our back 4, goal keeper and 2 defensive midfielders learn to tighten up, at 3-2 today there was no way it was going to finish at that way, simple runs into the channels were causing utter chaos, it was simply a matter of time - again.........

Creativity is all .... defence is just an ugly concept espoused by those philistines that don't share his vision.

This is a very big EGO at work and we're all strapped in for the ride until someone has the balls to pull the plug.

I have had enough.

He seemed more concerned about us not drawing at 3 - 3 that us going behind. And not holding on to our lead. But then he does talk in riddles.

I just can’t fathom why he didn’t shore up the defence, bring holding players on, especially as we seem to go to pieces when were in the driving seat and have limited time left (9 minutes I think). But who knows what he’s thinking. Certainly not on the same wave length as most on here.

So I suppose it’s back to the drawing board. Now how many times have we said that.

Even Stones looked out of sorts.

I thought Barry, was our star man again. So why didn’t he need a rest?

RM, just doesn’t make sense does he? And he’s wearing ever so thin.

The strange thing is, we will probably beat Spurs. Convincingly and then loose our next match.

Oh for the joy of being an Evertonian.

To those that go to Goddison, would you say that Martinez just can't organize the back line? Does this fall on our Defensive coach? (Google says this is Dennis Lawrence. Who has followed Martinez from Swansea to Wigan, to here...) If so maybe it's time for a new defensive coach. I hear Moyes is available... (It would never happen but I do like the sound of a resilient Moues back line and free flowing Martinez forward line!)

Your (constructive) thoughts are appreciated.

I said after the Leicester defeat, if you go back to the end of Martinez's first season, our home form is dreadful, and the amount of teams that come to Goodison and score three or more is alarming.

The form at Goodison was always the bedrock for a solid season and a top 6 challenge, it gave us a platform but sadly those days are long long gone.

Goodison is no longer a fortress, teams no longer have any fear at coming here anymore, they just come and outscore us.

7 wins at home from 19 matches last season and so far 3 from 10, its appalling, it's relegation form.

I'm not even angry any more as our season is over it seems. Top good to go down, not good enough for Europe or for silverware, the only question is will we be 8th, 9th or 10th and I can't be bothered to be honest.

Eventually the Martinez era will be over and we may have a properly organised team. 3-4 is a school playground score!

It will never change as long as this guy is our manager. It really is as simple as that.

Show that anger on the pitch ffs!!!!!

Nodody even appealed the Coleman penalty claim . . . under Martinez we are soft and far far too nice.

Apart from Sunderland and West Brom, the other games we have conceded 2 or 3 in we have drawn or lost, did we outscore Bournemouth?
Leicester? Stoke??

Last season we conceded 6 at home to Chelsea, lost, we don't exactly win many of these ding dong 4-3 games do we?

So you'd think really that the penny would drop with Martinez and he'd start thinking of winning more games in the 1-0 manner we had at Newcastle, albeit not leave it so late!!

Mind you, it's pointless, he's not going to change, he's a manager that's never worked on setting up a defence and is unlikely to ever change!!

I just think that Newcastle game on Boxing Day has bought him a brief bit of breathing space, with fixtures on the horizon against Spurs, Chelsea and three against fucking goal machine Man City, it could be a very long river leading to a violent waterfall for Martinez..

A one trick pony that can't adapt.

I would take any of the top six managers in the championship. Our season is over in the league! Need a lot of luck in the cup matches not to conceed at least three goals against Manchester city.

Our defending resembles Wigan in there prime. Attacking with intent and scoring goals but defending like the red lion on a Sunday morning! Martinez has not learnt from this. Only one outcome, let's hope its not relegation next season!!

But he had a major inferiority complex with the "bigger" teams. Martinez hasn't which is his other plus. However he is deluded and stubborn and as a result is holding our club back from achieving what it should.

He has to go, but there appears a complete lack of any pressure on him. The only glimmer of light is his contract will be up soon unless anyone is stupid enough to offer him a new deal.

The manager in the other dug out today would be the one for me.

To have lost more games at home than we have won and too have conceded so many goals is totally unacceptable and will destroy the confidence and team spirit.

Please leave as soon as possible Roberto and take messrs Jones and Lawrence with you

He will learn, but our manager fails to learn, as we panic as a team, just when we have got ahead....just like at Bournemouth after Barks scored. It is all down to the set-up. He has to go, as he is wasting our best chance in years of a CL place.

We should be comfortably 4th instead of a dodgy 10th

One point from the last nine at home, we have conceded seven in our last two matches at Goodison. It's embarrassing, for everyone, especially the man who was saying lessons have been learned. Experience alone should have given him the sense to keep his fucking mouth shut.

I'm convinced Martinez would be a very good youth development coach, were results are not so important.

Now its not all negative as I think he would be far better suited to a defensive midfielder , the new Barry , where he can use his undoubted reading, passing skills to better effect.

It's funny but I've thought about that myself regarding Stones.

I think alot of people get carried away so quickly at times and they have already earmarked Stones as a world class defender but I asked the question last year, is actual "defending" what Stones is really so good at?
Or is it just bringing the ball out of the defence with skill and composure?.

I myself think John has a few more years to go and become physically stronger before I can really judge him as a world class defender.

I don't think he is going to get any better in this area sadly working under Roberto Martinez, that's not being negative, it's just a fact!!

Stones's natural ability on the ball is his own work, not Martinez's but strangely I think as a defender who first and foremost needs to defend, I think he'd have benefited more under David Moyes.

Martinez will never ever work on defence.

Now, let me confess, my own emotions follow that path so I criticise nobody whose optimism has changed to despair so quickly. However, what I'm trying to determine is which way the season will finish. I guess three wins on the trot will see normality restored and, as with last season, some satisfaction will be found in yet another mid-table finish.

Such is the journey all Evertonians undertake - I guess it's our lot.

At that age, they may not have 'brought the ball out ' so stylishly but they were all much more competent and effective at the heart of our defence. And there have been others.

I also think we should be gracious enough to acknowledge how well Stoke played. Shaqiri is a fine player to watch and I also love watching Bojan. I thought Hughes was the wrong choice for them but they are a very good side, much better than Leicester in my view.

Even though RM's first season was a wow, the 2nd season a disappointment and this season offering further frustration, the defensive set up, such as it is, has not greatly changed.

Essentially, the 'default' position of our defensive line up - that is, the prime area they occupy on the pitch on the chalk board is the following:

RM has his fullbacks pushed up wide to the half way line. Behind them, he likes his two centre backs to go wide either side ahead of the penalty area. This creates space down the middle of our half which, depending on who is available (but mostly it is Barry) is filled by a defensive or deep lying midfielder - be it Barry, Mcarthy or sometimes Ross.

The idea is we retain possession from the goalkeeper forward, who has the option to roll the ball out to either wide sitting centre back, or the deep lying midfielder. This is then recycled forward to the advanced full backs, who - when it works well - can interchange with the wide playing midfielders/forwards in the opponents half, by which time our centre backs and covering defensive midfielders fill in the gaps where necessary if the full backs advance high up the pitch.

In the first few games in RM's 1st season, the crowd often had kittens or were exasperated at the continually (risky, in some eyes...) passing of the ball across our back four just in front of our penalty area as the team became accustomed to the demands of the new manager.

Very quickly, the team adapted, however. RM himself at the time commented how many months it had taken for his Swansea and Wigan teams to adapt, but at Everton the players 'got it' in half a dozen games.

The rest of the season offered some scintillating football, inspirational subs and change of tactics within games which often resulted in turning draws into victories, or at worst, salvaging a point from a losing position. The slow paced and perpetual passing across the backline of early season gave way to sharp, incisive and rapid movement of the ball forward which often cut the opposition to shreds. This generated huge excitement and anticipation for the 2nd season.

Alas, it was largely a damp squid. Having been caught out by Everton the previous season, last season teams learnt to cut off the supply line at source and pushed up high on the full backs and centre backs. This resulted in a return to slow, ponderous sideways passing along our backline, just in front of our penalty area.

Quite often, there was not even a need for the opposition to put a tackle in. Just harass the back line, or deep lying midfielders, who would cough up a pass under pressure and the opposition were immediately through to the heart of our goal with both centre backs and full backs woefully out of position in their default positions to effectively offer any defensive cover.

In the bleak mid winter of last season, the players met with RM and expressed their concerns and asked for a more flexible variation of tactics than they were playing. It resulted in the back four being more compact and aligned, with Barry playing deeper just in front of them and Mcarthy playing a touch further forward. Ross was also encouraged to play more around the 'D' of the opposition penalty area. This had the effect of containing the opposition further away from our goal and stopping them from having a free run through the heart of our defence. Goals against were considerably reduced, even though Howard's form dipped seriously from the previous season. Passing was also more direct, rather than incessant 'tippy-tappy' in areas that did not hurt or threaten the opposition.

This season, to be fair, our best back four has been disrupted by injuries and - in John Stones case - the distraction of the Chelski transfer bid.

Baines has just returned to the side, Jags is a long term absentee and SERIOUSLY missed by the team, I don't care what anyone says about his limitations. He was one of those primarily responsible for turning our fortunes around last season and deservedly won the club's player of the year trophy. Stones and Coleman have also been absent through injury.

Both have individually played reasonably well, but Funes Mori and Galloway and still relative virgins in a very tough league.

That said, our defensive organization has looked mostly shambolic this season, from front to back.

Too often the opposition defenders are not pressurized enough in possession, our midfield is too easily played through, wide men given too much time and room to put crosses in and no strong headers of the ball (or a dominant goalkeeper) at the heart of our defence to clear such threats.

Even though we scored 3 goals against them today, I really admired how the Stoke defence played today. There was a discipline, a firmness, an UNDERSTANDING of their roles which, sadly, seems almost totally absent in Everton's defence.

We are a match for anyone going forward. IMO we have the PL's standout forward in Romelu and two of the best providers to feed him in Ross and Gerard.

Sadly, RM has openly declared "Everton is not set up to prevent goals." And it shows ...

It is becoming an increasing concern that this apparent dereliction of duty by the sitting manager is seriously undermining our season and our ability to achieve the prime objective in professional league football: WIN GAMES!

Unless and until RM shows willing and is capable of achieving a better balance to the benefit of the team and individual players, as he currently sets up the team, we will, I'm sorry to say, continue to concede 2 or 3 goals a game.

Let me close by saying I was thoroughly entertained by today's game. It was an exhibition of top quality football with a cascade of top notch goals. But ... we lost.

And if we continue in this vein, all the fine blossoming footballers now assembled at Everton will soon depart and the promise they offer will be fulfilled at other clubs.

Conversely Everton have only conceded 9 goals away from Goodison in the league which suggests that we can defend when necessary but somehow don't do so to great effect at Goodison. It would be some consolation if we had have conceded a rout scoreline such as Chelsea last season but we haven't it is a constant flow of goals conceded and that has undermined everything positive and points to a struggle to amass points if we lose Lukaku's goalscoring talents.

All the best teams from the past and present are built on defence, Everton are not and no matter who we have in the line-up the problem will continue until a different manager is in place. We'll get away with it this season, next season I'm not so sure.

We need a 4-1-3-2 formation in my opinion and Barkley should be a fluid centre of the 3. He has been playing deeper it is true but he still lacks a clearly defined role for us. I would be happy with any of Barry/McCarthy/ Besic as the defensive midfielder (I would go for Besic but appreciate that is probably not the majority view). I would have played Mirallas behind Lukaku but it is pretty clear he's now going. I do hope we have a suitable option lined up who is not either Naismith or Kone.

it all seems a bit pointless though with Martinez at the helm.

Martinez is unable to see the obvious and by constantly selecting Howard he has damaged the goalkeeper's reputation. Howard will always be remembered as a clown and not a great servant to the club.

Martinez has lost all credibility with the fans. His post match interviews are a total embarrassment. Martinez has a great crop of players but he is unable to make the most of their talent. What do the first team coaches do?

Something has to change soon.

Top players do not like losing and it also eats away at team spirit.

Those that say we have a young team that is still learning have a point but in the context of tactics and preparation they are learning the wrong habits.

This guy has never cut it in the Prem as evidenced by Wigan getting relegated with a record number of goals against. He followed such notable managers as Steve Bruce and got even worse results than them.

I never thought he was good enough for us but now I am totally convinced.

I am sick of feeling like this every week so god knows how the players feel..

Martinez out ASAP.

The board have for years been ineffectual (it's Christmas, so I'm being kind) in everything they do and are now transfixed by the prospect of pocketing mega-bucks in a few weeks rather than doing anything for us fans. From the point of view of most, if not all of them, they'll never give Everton a second thought once they've all got rich and buggered off.

Meanwhile we all still attend every match, maximising the board's revenues, enabling them to ask the max for a buy-out, making it harder for new owners to then develop a better team with a competent manager.

“Yes, it is a recurring theme but one that shows the right path in a way.

“We want to get ourselves in front and therefore you will have to put yourself forward. It is an overall feeling we need to get better in that situation. We know how to protect those leads and make sure we get the return on points.”

“At the moment there is a bigger picture, nobody has got their position safe.

“Everyone is fighting for their starting spot, and it’s no different for anyone but we have to get better as a team. The competition for places is always there, there are a lot of games in the next few weeks. There is going to be a lot of completion for places.”

Either way, RM is papering over the cracks with that as an excuse.

We will end up with what we truly deserve. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

All of which doesn't make much more sense than the actual quotes, however, perhaps he is alluding to the possibility of new ownership and from that perspective nothing about the future is assured for anybody presently working for the club?

Why does Lennon & Miralles need a rest when they've been on the bench for most of the season??

On the part of RM deflecting blame. Perhaps there is substance to the buyout and that he's playing for his job now. Unfortunately, I don't see us getting good results any time soon as long as he lets his EGO dictate style over substance.

We now need a latter day Catterick to get a latter day Denis Stevens and Tony Kay.

aka 'The Goldilocks Option'

Frankly, Coleman was brought down without the ball being touched by the Stoke player but Seamus had seemingly lost control of it (that is, it would have likely crossed the line before he reached it). The decision against Stones was completely wrong as Stones took the ball.

This becomes a 6 point reversal between the teams if refereed properly.

To lose like this is bad, and to concede so many goals as we do, is poor. However, I can't understand the outpourings about RM on this thread. Yes, Howard is a liability and should be replaced plus we need to add some clout defensively. But is he really that bad?

Jokes aside, I did not see the Coleman foul and had I seen that, might have agreed that that the Stones foul should not be given.

All I want to say is that this does not mask our issue. We can't defend. We are too vulnerable and require a top notch GK (who Howard is no longer) to bail us out. Is this because the back 4 is too young? I do not believe so. As someone mentioned of us playing 2 DMs, our setup is not pure offense but how that made us concede so many, only GOD knows because RM sure as hell doesn't!

Everton need four out-and-out defenders whose primary – and, in my opinion, only – job should be to break up opponents' attacks and give the players further up the pitch the ball.

I also think that RM’s style has a detrimental effect on all departments of the team but in particular the defenders because as they tire they lose concentration they make mistakes. They don’t have a minute's rest or respite during most matches as they are constantly involved in all aspects of the game, but the opposition defenders do have periods of rest and time to regain their composure – as do our forward players who don’t work as hard most of the time on closing down the opponents defenders.

So back to reality, Martinez's job is safe regardless if blue Bill sells or not.

Our season is over AGAIN before the new year. Even if we managed to somehow beat city over two legs do you seriously think we could beat either the Rs or Stoke in the final. This team Martinez has built has no winning mentality. Too many lost games prove that

We're stuck with Martinez until the end of the season. Longer even if we have new owners come Feb as they might give him another season to assess the situation.

Gareth Barry was brilliant again last night but must feel he is wasting his time playing out of his skin for Roberto, time for the senior players to revolt like they did last season.

The players never suffer half as bad as the fans after a game like that.

Hey, he brought all his backroom staff with him and still preaches fine margins as we ship record numbers of goals against.

The defending was sickening. Coleman more concerned with being hit by the ball as he slowed down and allowed the cross. Stones, who is not a favourite of mine, completely clueless off the ball as he waves to his team-mates. One of the slowest young CBs I've ever seen, especially on the turn. Bojan thanked him for the extra space and made him look like a pensioner. Even on the ball, his passing was dreadful.

Whether this lad is carrying an injury or not will remain a mystery. With Browning and Jags out and no experienced backup, we're pretty desperate back there.

Not too worried about the lads up front, especially the superb Lukaku. Cleverley for Kone would be ideal plus a fit Jags and McCarthy.

People baying for Besic should remember that, against Newcastle, he couldn't get above walking pace.

Yes, Martinez seems to be sticking with his philosophy and has created a better class Wigan. It's hard to take but a fully fit rirst XI would be very competitive and slightly less vunerable at the back.......and no, I wouldn't have Stones for a big clock. Okay, he's only 21, but will his legs move any quicker when he's 22?

To Martinez's credit, we now have a squad which we can believe in (lack of goalie and influential number 10 notwithstanding), and nobody ever accused Everton of under-achieving under OFM.

For God's sake, we're behind Leicester, Crystal Palace, West Ham, Watford and now Stoke. Did that ever happen with Moyes? (Possibly, but only briefly and not because of crap defending.) I'm not saying I want Moyes back, I just want someone who can enable this team to reach its potential.

"I'll get you in the Champion's League in 4 years", he said - fat chance of that if we can ship 4 goals at home to Stoke City. Sooo depressing...

To be so lax in defence is crazy and a complete dereliction of duty. Where does he think he is....some no mark club where he can play around with his team and think the fans will accept any old shit? As others have pointed out, the balance is just all wrong. One DM who actually knows his job is all that is required alongside a back 4 who actually know what they are doing. Its pretty obvious there is no defensive coaching going on as they all get in each others way. Alongside the back 4 there was Barry, McCarthy/Cleverly and Barkley was so deep also. Even with all those players Stoke still scored 4! Get a cohesive back 4 with someone sitting just in front and that really should be enough. Even Moyes realised that. Too many cooks etc. Nobody has any clear idea of their defensive roles and the sloppy play yet again when passing the ball across the back 4 just has your heart in your moth. There is just no need to mes around that much at the back. It just invites pressure.

However, it has become increasingly clear that this guy is never going to learn and it is going to be at the detriment of our once great club. Sad thing is nobody at the club will do anything and we, the fans are left suffering with an idiot manager at the helm who is dragging our club one way, downwards.

That's what RM said, David.

I agree with you, why would he need to give Marallas, Lennon and Baines a rest?

Am I right in saying that's 3, THREE wins at Goodison all year. Relegation form which is a ludicrous statement when you look at the quality in the side.

I'm going against the grain and sticking with him to put it right because I believe we could have a very bright future if he only sorted out the conceding goals.

His stubbornness could be his own undoing and I'll have zero sympathy for him if he goes, if it is down to his reluctance to change or address the issues holding us back from becoming a top side, then that will be his own doing.

Clearly Howard needs replacing, and we need to tighten up as a team and at obviously at the back.

These aren't easy things to address mid - season.

He said in a recent press conference (and I agree with him) that managers aren't given enough time anymore to address and find solutions to problems, due to social media.

In this day and age, Moyes would have been gone after that 17th place finish.

I hope that the current Everton board give Martinez the summer to address the keeper and defensive problems, and give him at least 6 months of the following season.

He can either look to address the defence himself, which I don't think is a good idea as it's not his forte, or he can bring in a respected defence coach to solely look to address this.

If Martinez doesn't bring someone in and this doesn't change then he will, have nobody to blame but himself, an ego and stubbornness.

As I've said before the best managers delegate to other coaches where they are not strong, identifying where their own weakness are and bringing something that is strong in that area is what makes them great managers.

Martinez must now do the same in the summer - it's his own lookout if he does not.

Rugby is light years ahead of football, as far as coaching and annals is goes and they've compartmentalised coaching for a long time with defence and attack coaches etc.

We had a problem last season with backward and sideways passing, we were pedestrian and lacked dynamism going forward, Martinez has done a complete 360 on that problem, he's changed that and made us one of the best and most potent attacking teams in the EPL in the following season.

I think he should be given next season to the address the issues of this season, if he doesn't then it'll be down to his own stubbornness and an ego and he will have nobody to blame but himself, and he'll lose the support of even his most ardent supporters.

Personally I don't think we will hold on to Lukaku. He has been with us three seasons and there has been no improvement in our fortunes despite his goal scoring feats. I've no doubt big clubs offering massive salaries will be in for him. Stones will also be gone for the same reasons. No doubt we will have a lot of money to spend on replacements but do you really trust Martinez to spend it wisely?

Remember the only real success he has had in the transfer market has been Lukaku and to an extent Deulofeu who will no doubt return to Barca for a snip.. Of his Wigan contingent Kone-failure, Robles-failure, Alcaraz-failure, McCarthy-average. Cleverley-jury still out. The likes of Mirallas, Barkley and Stones were already at the club when he arrived. So his record his hardly sparkling.

I think should we get a new wealthy owner his first order of business will be to bin RM and bring in a new charismatic manager who can attract big name players and not just disgruntled youngsters with potential.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/Everton-fc-talking-point-Roberto-10661445

It appears sloppy defending is nothing new to Martinez.

I have just said on another thread I genuinely believe we would have more points had Robles been our keeper the last 6 or 7 games or so.

I do agree with you regards Lukaku, no doubt in my mind he will be off and it wouldn't surprise me if it even happened in January.
How we will replace him I don't know, good strikers are hard to find and every team is after them.

McCarthy doesn't score enough. What two goals in three 2.5 seasons. Although to be fair I could say the same for most of our midfield players. Barry, Besic, Gibson, have not managed half a dozen goals between them.

Funny. You would think with a squad so heavy with defensive midfielders we would concede far less goals than we do.

Some scary reading...

"(Yesterday) was the FOURTEENTH time Everton have conceded three or more goals in 95 Premier League matches under Martinez (that's once every 6.78 games...) The same happened just seven times in Moyes’ final 136 Premier League matches in charge."

That's the trouble with stats you can often use them to suit any argument.

For instance would you be interested to know that under Moyes we conceded three goals or more 20 times in his first 95 games?

That's once every 4.25 games!!

"By this stage of the season I felt that we needed to be seeing more consistent performances, which would naturally translate into better results."

Sounds strangely relevant? The Notts County chairman having just sacked his manager....

Look what happened. We avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth.

The attacking fullback no longer works. Everyone plays counter attack these days so you can't afford to be caught with your two fullbacks in the opposing final third. You have to keep cover at the back.

As soon as we went in front RM should have thrown another DM (not like we didn't have any on the bench) on. Gone to 4-5-1 and run down the final ten minutes. But no let's keep attacking that's a much better idea.

If you are losing you attack but if you are winning, especially with a few minutes left, you defend. The players might need to learn this. But so does Martinez. As a manager he has to be procative. He can't afford to stand there with his fingers crossed hoping for the best.

You're probably right about the players leaving, but it was this manager that brought these players in, and if Stones and Rom are sold it will be for a huge fee - close to £90m in total I would assume.

Identifying and bringing in players of sheer quality has not been Martinez's or his scouts problem in his time here, so I have little concerns that the money would be wisely spent.

Whether Martinez stays or goes - that problem (those players leaving will remain) - unless new owners can change their minds, so we are left in the same situation.

If Martinez stays and spends the money wisely (as he has done to date) then we are left in the same situation - can he address the defensive issues, I would has said previously give him the summer to do so, whilst the following 6 months.

He has addressed the problem last season, so lets see if he can address the following one, if not then he goes, but he deserves the opportunity to do so for me, as he has shown from last season that he can learn and change - last year back, sideways to this year - attacking at pace, with dynamism and far more direct.

We have only beaten teams in the bottom half of the table or non Prem teams this season that is all the statistics you need to want this fella out.

Wigan were easy on the eye look where they have ended up.

A valid point Graham, only ... I think the respective quality of the squads Moyes and Roberto inherited should also be taken into consideration when assessing their first 95 league games with the club.

For example, in the 6 seasons before Moyes joined, our goals against read 57, 56, 47, 49, 59, 57 = 325.

In the 6 (Moyes) seasons before RM joined the goals against numbered 33, 37, 49, 45, 40, 40 = 244.

That's 81 less goals, or an average over 6 seasons of 13.5 goals per season.

In the 23 complete seasons of the PL to date, Everton's average goals FOR is 49 and goals AGAINST 47.

Excluding the RM's 2 full seasons, Moyes was responsible for raising the medium in the goals FOR column and lowering the goals AGAINST. In his 11 full seasons with us he bettered the 23 year club average of goals scored 7 times, hit the average goals for in his first season and was below average in only seasons 2, 3 and 4.

As you would expect, Moyes bettered the historical goals against average in 10 of his 11 seasons, only going over the top in his 2nd season.

RM, by contrast, is all-square on these numbers. Over and below average in his 1st season, the 61 goals we scored was only bettered by Joe Royle's 6th placed side with 64 goals in 1995-96. Equally impressive was the 39 goals we conceded in RM's 1st season, our 4th best in the PL only bettered 3 times by Moyes.

Then we have last season's below average 48 goals scored and 50 conceded, putting them in the top 10 and top 8 WORST returns in their respective categories.

A simple and totally unscientific and invalid equation to make, but ... if we doubled our current goals for and against tallies as they now stand at exactly the half way point of the season, we will finish the season with a PL record high of goals scored of 70 and a near record high of goals conceded of 56.

Make of that what you will!

Top marks for research, I was maybe being mischievous.

I don't think it takes either stats or being the proverbial rocket scientist to realise that

A) on the whole Moyes set his sides up to be better defensively

B) Martinez sets his sides up to score more goals

I think the real question is will Martinez be capable of adapting his team to build on the undoubted quality to turn that into a winning side. I'm not sure personally, I think he is wedded to his 'philosophy'.

But I still believe he deserves some time.

Like you, I feel that whilst stats can be informative (or misleading, depending how they are presented!) and fun, it only tells part of the story.

Your own eyes, and ears (on comments emanating from the club ... manager ... players) all contribute to prima facie evidence on the state of things.

Personally, I continue to bewildered how we didn't build on and kick on from RM's 1st season. There really was a sense of sin miedo about the manager, his tactics, his telling and timely substitutions. Now, he is far more reserved and conservative and is not showing the same innovation as in his debut season.

I honestly do not put much stock in his media comments as many are inclined to do. Having said that, in recent weeks he has given disgruntled supporters many a stick to beat him with. Just 48 hours on from telling us 'lessons learned,' we get yesterday's late capitulation against Stoke.

Yesterday, with his comments about Clattenberg, is the first time his personae and eternally cheerful and positive disposition has cracked in his Everton career to date. Is this evidence he is also beginning the feel the heat and the growing wrath of the exasperated fan base?

And as an aside, personally, I think passing the blame to the ref for yesterday's loss as he the manager and some posters have attempted is NOT were the fault lies. It was not a singular failing against Stoke alone this season. There is a whole succession of failings from dominant, winning positions.

January transfer window opening soon ... rumours of serious takeover bids ... quality young players itching to test themselves at the highest club level.

Who knows how the soap opera that is Everton will play out over the coming months..?

And STILL tune in to endure the latest episode each week. Only ... it WOULD be nice to have a happy ending now and again rather than a heart breaking cliff hanger every week!

I love attacking football, but this is a gung ho attacking style that has no place in 80mins of the 90 of a premier league game.