Flying Everton shot down by WBA

Go at them, be confident, be committed, keep playing the football we've been been playing.

Attitude and skill, kill.

Realistically, we should win. I'd settle for a draw and us playing well. The longer our undefeated run goes the more nervous I am before a match for some reason.

We had no idea in the final third and Felli had clearly been reading his own hype.

Woeful all round, if Moyes wants to make a statement this season we need to win games like this.

Maybe he has spent too much time off the training ground and Round too much time on it.....

I cannot believe Anichebe gets to wear that royal blue shirt. The lad has no skill, no pace and bafflingly no strength. He is a terrible footballer. That could all be excused if he showed even the slightest bit of desire. I honestly don't have a good word to say about the lad. How we got rid of Vaughan and kept this lump I will never know.

I hate days like today.

It is tragically obvious how important Gibson is to us and putting neville in the midfield just highlighted (for the umteenth time) that he is NOT a midfielder! I pray that this new belgian kid can play in gibsons position as I can see gibson missing a few games through injury this season. If we don't have an adequate replacement them Fellaini needs to drop back.

WIn some loose some, would have been different I think had gibbo not gone off. We really need to finally end Neville or Heintinga playing in midfield - they are defenders. (Yes they have an ok game now and again but law of averages is not good enough).

Defeat is annoying but fair play to West Brom, they were the better side. Lets hope gibsons hamstring injury is recovered in 2 weeks time.

Was also disappointed with Naismith (early days I know). We didn't do much on the right side of the pitch for the first hour.

But on 17 mins today he proved nothing has really changed. He had the opportunity to keep the positive spirit going despite losing Gibson... but what does he do? Negativity at a critical moment in the game and the positive, attack-minded confidence evaporates. We miss an open goal that coulda woulda won it. And we give up two of the softest goals imaginable.

Hope Gibson is not injured for long as his involvement is crucial for us keeping our shape and without him we either have to play the slight painful to watch Neville or drop Felli back (though with his finishing today maybe not a bad thing). International break gives Gibson time to recover hopefully and if not for Vadis to settle in.

WBA had a plan to counter Fellaini and it was working. One in front, one behind and with them pressing high up the pitch on us we could only aim long balls at him. Our response was to persist, persist, persist with it - even if it meant playing a defender in midfield to make it happen. Just dumb football.

Then the change finally comes and we put Osman on the right with Hibbert. That doesn't work, has never worked, has been responsible for some of our biggest disappointments. They immediately set about destroying that flank and got the first from there. Just more dumb football.

All up, lots of disappointing individual performances but we were still on top until Gibson went off. That changed the game but shouldn't let our manager off the hook. Fella is a defensive midfielder who can also play an attacking role. If it's not working then have the sense to go to plan B and return him to his proper position... don't just persist at all costs.

Credit to West Brom. Decent side who played well and executed a gameplan.

Back to earth with a bump and a stark reminder of, for all his positives, where our greatest weakness might actually be.

First goal was really poor defending from him and West Brom targetted our right side with Fortune then Odemwingie.

Hope Gibbo's back for the barcodes but if not, Felli needs to drop back as we need a presence in the centre. Mirallas to start right side with Nais off Jelavic.

Up the blues.

Bad day at the office for the manager but it happens to all of us.

Pienaar and Fellaini were both shite today. From what I've seen from Naismith I don't think he deserves to be starting games yet. Howard with yet another fuck up. I thought Distin looked shaky against Man Utd and again today, time for Heitinga to replace him.

Today's performance was piss-poor but I'm still happy with 6 points from 3 games.

A real come down today but the thing is we must learn from it, it's only a defeat, United would recover from it but can we?

If Gibson had been injured after 70 minutes, the moaners would have a point, but it was only 20 minutes in - playing away against a team who've started the season brightly. He kept the shape the same. Where's the managerial cock-up in that?

I'm disappointed. We played badly. It happens. Next game, please...

Bad day today but even the best teams have them. 2 weeks to embed new signings and 3 points against the Toon....sounds easy when I say it... ;)

(1) Central defence. Absolutely shocking today, that 1st goal ought to be shown to all aspiring 12- or 13-year-old defenders about how not to defend – Hibbo caught out, Jags (well, marooned), Distin wrong-sided (again). Why oh why is Johnny not starting? I know he makes gaffs now and then, but to state the blind bleedingly fucking obvious, so do the chumps at the back today, and at least Johnny can play the ball out of defence.

(2) Goalie, from the sublime to the ridiculous. Howard drives me nuts, goalies cannot afford a 50% success ratio, he was like a straggling gormless tit for the 2nd goal (but, by the way, the baggie was only allowed to shoot for the (great) save for the corner coz Distin backed off and then put his leg in the air like a pert ballerina when the Baggie shot). I seriously don't know what to do. We have no better option. We need a top-drawer alternative, Brummy boy or whoever, has to be a #1 priority for the next window.

(3) The service for Mirallas when he came on was piss poor. His first touch and movement was just the injection we needed and should have led to a goal. But the next 30 mins? Baines, listen, you don't need to run past Mirallas with the ball all the time, he is perfectly capable of doing these things for himself. Pass it LB, okay?

(4) Neville. Fuck me, he should never ever ever ever never ever ever never ever play in centre-mid for us ever again. I can't take any more of it: his gormless wandering like the proverbial headless chicken, his neat and tidy little passes that get us fucking nowhere, his ballooning balls (so to speak) that end up in a throw-in for our smiling opponents.

(5) Right-back. Something has to happen here, because neither Neville or Hibbert are good enough all round. Both bring something to this position, but neither is a complete right back. Answer? Fuck knows. Moyes seems happy and clearly disagrees with me and he, after all, is the expert. Work on Coleman's clear defensive lack of nous? Possibly. Can Garbutt play right side? With the goalie, right-back, I feel, is our major sore point now that we have left-back cover.

(6) I'm sorry, time to call time on Osman. How on earth peeps thought he had a good game today is beyond me, and I don't base this on a single game, but handful of seasons where admittedly there have been some very good things but not enough, too lightweight, maddening.

(7) Time to call time on the biggest lumbering load of arrogant shite that I have seen at The Old Lady over the last decade or so, Victor fucking Anichebe., Ship him. There is now no need to have this shameful championship player on our bench any longer. Sell the camel to Stoke in January, the mutants and living dead there will welcome him with open flesh dripping arms.

(8) With the smart window dealing we no longer need to have Osman starting, Neville in centre-mid, or Anichebe sitting like a right good proper Prem player on our bench. Nice work Davey, nice work. Shrewd dealing, professional and proper scouting and dealing. Well done fella.

(9)Reasons to be cheerful (part-1). No matter what happened to today in baggie-land (fuck Smethwick is one shitbag of a dump) this squad is still very promising and for the first time in years, with the right sort of managerial decision-making and wheeling and dealing, there is creativity and flare nearly everywhere.

(10) Reasons to be cheerful (part-2). A few spots are changing on Davey's leopard skin. Yes, Pete Barry, today was at times a little uncomfortably like last October, but no need to jerk knees and the hammering words after the final whistle were well, quite frankly, silly. Two weeks worth of work for all concerned and then we will again play the next May 8th placed barcodes off the park.

If Davey does not make the most of the raw materials he has in his hands now, I will be the first to jump down his throat. But tell me, I doubt that there is not a single ToffeeWebber who would not have settled on Aug-19 for six points our of nine.

We will be fine, methinks, but let's wait and see, and if need be, criticize if the time comes. That first sub was a little worrying for me, but at least he got Kevin on at 60 and that mightn't well have happened in last year's bleak early winter.

A nice string of winnable games ahead of us. I think that we will be in the top four come say October-1.
COYB

If continuation of game plan is what's best at 20 minutes, who would you have brought on?

When Gibson had to go off I bet most people were thinking bring Mirallas on and drop Fellaini back. This was just one decision but Moyes has form for not doing the obvious and choosing to be cautious instead.

Your right about last weeks performance but I think Naismith was quiet last week when everyone else was on fire.

Everton give a depressingly familiar display due to Tactically Inept MANAGEMENT.

The manager had a choice to make and got it wrong. No harm in pointing this out on a fan's forum is there.

Surely that is solely down to the player(s)?

Fellaini was having no joy against the big centre-halves, so he was pulled into midfield and then 1) Mirallas played wide right and Pienaar played left 2) Anichebe came on and played through the centre with Pienaar wide right and Mirallas left 3) then Mirallas went up front with Jelavic and Anichebe moved the the left and Pienaar began to move from the right into midfield.

As Peter said, tactically an absolute shambles.

Summed it up perfectly and you too Michael.

It just brings up all the failings of how we played before our winning streak and has you thinking was it just a 'flash in the pan'.

I thought after coming back from 4-2 down against the manure last year that our defensive mind set was behind us, that my attitude towards Moyes was had changed, that KITAP1 was behind us. Then we win our first game of the season, against UTD, demolish Villa, stuff Orient with half a team, things are on the up, then we play WB and revert to what Ernie and Michael posted.

I want to believe that we're heading in the right direction, but sometimes, just sometimes.......

I'm over the moon with the way things have gone upto now (Apart from today) even the players Moyes has brought in have got me applauding him, and for the first time in a long, long while I'm quietly confident for the season, but some of you lads need to realise, that along with the plaudits he has deserved, comes the criticism.

To me 'normal service resumed' is people on Toffeeweb having completely unrealistic expectations of a football team. We will have a good season. We may only finish 8th. We will win some away games and amazingly even lose some home games!

We have a squad and team spirit better than our expenditure deserves. On our day we will beat a lot of decent teams, but we will also have some 'poor' results like today again this season. We will not win the league for the foreseeable future, but we may win a cup and get in to Europe. We will see some great performances this year as well as crap ones.

Well done West Brom - beaten both Liverpool teams at home and kept clean sheets. Good day at the office for them (with our help) and bad day for us.

I know its hard not to get emotional when we win well or lose badly but money buys consistency and squad depth when a few players underachieve. I reckon this result will do the squad a world of good ultimately as they will know that they cant just believe their own hype, turn up and win.

Just trying to be balanced. Its a bummer to lose today but we werent good enough.

Very disappointing post from you, Kevin (#948); you seem to need the release of inverted triumphalism to justify such pathetic accusations as 'hubris' and 'gloating'. Why on earth would any Evertonians be gloating today? You should be ashamed of yourself.

2 consecutive days and 2 totally contrasting sets of emotions. But I'll quickly get back the buzz from yesterday, which itself was built on the buzz from a great 2nd half of last season. That was no "dead cat bounce". The cat is ready to keep purring. And the prospect of the new boys being tried out...!!!

Newsflash: We're not immune to either a bad day at the office, or to be beaten fair & square by a better team on the day..

But when you get beat by a better team like we did you find failings in your manager and his tactics, today we reverted to a defensive mindset yet again, to continously pump long balls to Screech even though it was clear this wasn't working. I could see that, you and everyone else, but he persisted and yet again here we are discussing failings of the man that I thought were resigned to last season and many before them.

With that one, you just earnt yourself a ban.

That was the first game I've missed in ages and it's been staggeringly obvious that confidence and a positive mindset has been oozing out of everyone and increasing with the start we've had.

Missing an open goal will not be down to missing confidence, it will be the exact opposite - overconfidence - in my opinion. I'd say everyone expected us to turn up and take 3 pts thank you very much but - shock, horror! - we lost a game. We had a bad day, the other team had a better one.

Sometimes we will lose games and someone (can't think who) said take stock after 8-10 games. If we are rubbish by then, then there's a problem to be addressed.

I don't ever take that in the way some people do i.e. I have no desire to see us win and will be happy to draw. Moyes is a pragmatist/introvert who hides his desires from the public much the way I would. Perhaps that is why I generally am positive always about him and the job he has done/is doing - I understand his temperament. I still am happy to point out and discuss his shortcomings as well. Even Alex Ferguson has faults.

I will also say that if Moyes made what people perceive to be more attacking subs and tactics and we lost 4-1, would we all be happier? On balance I respect his approach. I though Neville was great against Man U. And so was Hibbo. Why would I not go with the approach that has won the previous two games? Would we really have done better if Gibbo went off and Mirallas came on and we changed our whole game plan that the players had trained for? I think Moyes is unfairly criticised when we lose like today. I think the players let him down and let us down.

We didn't keep our shape, we changed to 4-4-2 when Mirallas came on and then we lost it completely when we bought Anichebe on. We lost the game because we lost our shape.

Toffeeweb having completely unrealistic expectations of a football team.

Well if that is a manager not realising plan A ain't working and doing FU about it well your right, I do have unreal expectations.

I think it's hugely important that we win the games we play. I absolutely hate the mindset that says it's okay for us to lose one now and again, here and there. That is the attitude of a loser.

Of course it's one defeat, not the end of the world etc etc. But... it's clearly not a new dawn for Moyes. Today was a huge day and we were miles short of being up to it.

I haven't agreed with you many times in the past, but that statement was just inexcusable. The reporter should have pointed out to him that the game kicks off at 0-0, so is Moyes saying he should have went to WBA and just held out for a 0-0 scoreline?

I can't say Moyes has been terrible because he hasn't been. But I can't accept that attitude from an Everton manager. I could understand it if it was 0-0 and we had gone down to 10 men. But we had our exciting new signing on the bench, who just scored 2 goals in midweek and set up 2 more. And Moyes chooses Hibbert to go replace a midfielder in the first half, at 0-0.

He says maybe he should have settled for 0-0 but he wanted a bit more. Well he sure didn't show it and I think the team does feed off of that, seeing a defender pushed into midfield when you have all attacking options on the bench. Push Naismith into the middle and put Coleman out wide if you don't want to push Mirallas in that quickly. But Hibbert for Gibson and Neville into the midfield? Our attitude and confidence did change after that.

Serious question. I'm relatively new to TW. Can you please explain protocols for me. What was unacceptable (I haven't tracked back to look)? And banned for how long?

In my opinion I think it's you that should have a look at yourself in denigrating other Evertonians. We all get pissed off when we lose but some of us on here have a knee jerk reaction to lash out at and wind up other Evertonians at the drop of a hat. Mentioning no names but his Caps key is broken. That's passive-aggressive behaviour and it doesn't.

I've been on many many coaches to away games and fights don't break out between Evertonians on the way back (well not that often anyway). It's the norm on here.

Sometimes you get beat, you suck it up, you put it right and you move on. That's a winner mentality. Going back over it and moaning, saying "I told you so" (when he didn't) - even actually claiming you are prescient in print - is a loser mentality

If you think football is really as simple as the coach getting all his decisions right = his team win, then your world is different to mine.

I think luck comes into it. Officials come in to it. The other coach comes in to it.. The respective performances of the 22 + players comes into it. Heck, the weather even affects it.

Do you not think that if it was as simple as a coach just saying this is plan A guys go and do it that when it went wrong with no other ideas the players would at the end of a dreadful season (if not before) start saying 'Moyes is crap - he tells us to lump the ball up to Fellaini when we keep telling him no. And he also keeps putting Neville on who is crap. I don't want to be at a club with such a crap coach'.

Starting team wise he picked the same XI that won at Villa and I think most people were happy with that.

Gibson got injured early (which we surely can't blame the manager for) and much as I hate to see Neville in midfield it did seem the obvious choice by replacing like for like in so far as he could. He might have played Heitinga there instead but to be fair Neville played that position well against Man Utd.

He could have maybe put on Mirallas but we don't know how fit he is and it would have required more disruption to what has been till today a very successful formation.

The match was pretty even at this point and Moyes tried to be positive by bringing on Mirallas who then set up what could (and maybe should) have been the winning goal for Fella. As it was Fella blazed over and they broke and scored from a very fine piece of wing play from Odemwingie.

Hindsight is easy but I really don't see that Moyes made any decisions which were glaring mistakes. The team just performed below their best and came up against a resilient, well organised West Brom who took their chances better than we did.

At very worst we will be 6th or 7th going into international break with the best squad we have had in a long time.

We try not to force too many rules to encourage lively discussion but when it descends to personal abuse, we feel compelled to take action. On that basis, the worst possible insult to a fellow Evertonian on this forum is to be called a red. At one level, it's just a childish jibe, but there is no excuse for it, and Jamie Barlow knows that. I'm sure he'll post a full apology in due course...

I just hope it was as a genuine back up and not for some longer term worry given how Gibson went off today.

Have you considered alliteration....?

David Moyes us the Everton manager, he has been for a very long time, and he will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Hopefully the new boys will be able to replace the deadwood (and I think they will) because it's just downright depressing to see Hibbert, Neville and Osman on the same pitch.

C'mon Moyes, we'll get 40 points this year FFS, let's go for Champions League.

I'm gutted about today and usually spend more time on TW when we lose as to when we win but I do think the big picture is looking a hell of alot rosier now than it was 12 months ago.

Like some others on here I do get a little frustrated at those who seem to relish our losing as some sort of vindication. Of course all views are accepted but coming on here to say I told you so does not help anyone.

Moyes is not tactically inept. He is not a big game bottler. He is a pragmatist when a lot of fans are romantics. And I am very sorry but his results do speak for themselves. I don't have an emotional connection to the man at all and he could leave tomorrow and I wouldnt care but just looking at the facts you have to be pretty biased/blind to call it mediocrity.

Let me be clear - I do not have any expectations of us winning the league and I only have small hopes of a cup and the odd European jaunt. That is not defeatist. I would love to see more but even if we had won the odd cup I would not trade that for our relatively consistent league form. Of all the teams outside the big/moneyed teams that have won cups in the Premiership era I wouldnt want to have had any of their coaches or league records.

Blackburn/Boro/Birmingham/Villa/Portsmouth/Leicester

Usual Toffeeweb nonsense by too many on this board. Basically rather than sitting back and holding onto 0-0 when it wasn't working, Moyes made changes to try and go for the game (as people have clamoured for in their bile-filled criticism time and time again).

It doesn't work this time, so suddenly after several weeks of being a genius tactically and with transfers our manager is an idiot again.

No one wins all the time, so grow up and get over your fucking selves.

I checked what Moyes actually said and I think you may have read it wrong... or at least differently from how I read it. It may help to quote what Moyes reportedly said (from the OS):

“Maybe when it was 0-0 I should have settled for a draw but I wanted a bit more than that.” [Emphasis added].

You missed that last bit out. I think it makes a huge difference in interpretation. At worst, it belies a conviction that he feels we could have got a point if he had them playing KITAP1 in the second half rather than going for it. But in the process he firmly blames the players for the loss, and takes no blame himself, which is a pity.

Personally I think he left it far too late to bring on Mirallas; however, we went behind almost as soon as he came on... It's all second-guessing. We can never know what would actually happen in the alternate universe — but that'll never stop us wondering.

I can also see on paper how bringing in Hibbert and moving Neville would make sense (in past years)

However, now, today, going for 4th or higher, and with new signings watching on, playing for a 0-0 draw is so negative, unacceptable and damaging to the club that Moyes really will need to look in the mirror and not repeat this performance. That's all. Don't think we'll be undefeated, just tired of playing for draws.

Gibson's injury didn't help. To be fair to Moyes, I think he went for the change he did to try to keep the shape and pattern, but on the day Pienaar, Naismith and others misfired badly, and Jelavic was starved of service. One of the weaknesses of the squad identified by fan and neutral alike is the paucity of depth. We do have players to come in, and hopefully they will settle quickly.

None of this should take anything away from WBA, who had a game plan for it and stuck to it. Hopefully the new players give us options in formation and style, because whilst Man U and Villa couldn't live with us, the likes of today, and the Stokes, Sunderlands etc. will lap it up. This time last season performances like today's were the norm, let's hope this time it's a blip.

"We're gonna win the (mini) league*"

*mini league refers to the league just below the top 6!

I don't. As his post match comments suggest, bringing on Mirallas was a sign that he wanted to try and nick a goal and ultimately it was our attacking that left us open to the counter attack from which he scored. Before they scored we were camped in their half. Its not like we were throwing men behind the ball and sitting back. I think we went for it and it backfired. A shame, but it happens.

I won't blame Moyes for the hoofing - but he should make it clear they will be dropped if they keep it up.

Hopefully Mirallas & the new signings can offer something down the right hand side, we are still woefully dependant on the left going forward.

Jelavic thrives on quick balls on the deck - it's not fucking rocket science to play to his strengths.

Naismith's first touch is currently letting him down badly, it really takes the gloss off his hard work.

Finally, please make sure there is someone in front of Hibbo to cross the ball - how many poor crosses did he put in today ?

Cheers for the nod, duly noted.

But he obviously didn't tell them not too when it wasn't working.

Agree with you on that one Peter.

Moyes made a mistake bringing on Hibbert, he has hardly played, plus Osman or Fellaini could have taken Gibson's place and done a better job then Neville does.

It is always something with Moyes, as long as he keeps picking Neville as a midfielder I will be there to judge him for it, it is downright stupid.

The biggest problem overall was the players, they seemed tired for some reason. Maybe they had too little time to prepare for the game, perhaps they should have travelled one day sooner. It was clear that ALL the players were not able to fight 100% like they did in the two previous games.

You win some and you lose some. When you lose you should ensure you don't repeat the same mistakes and for that I would blame Moyes.

Overall, what a totally crap feeling this losing shit is. I hope it does not happen too often this season.
NSNO

So Moyes is getting pelters for playing Naismith for 60 minutes, putting Neville into midfield and playing Fellaini up front.

Let's rewind a little bit, Naismith has been stand out in a number of games, as has Fellaini upfront (begs the question he would have got moaned at if we had lost by moving into midfield). Remind where did Neville play against the Mancs?

We lost the game. We weren't at the races, get over it and move on. We will win far many more games than we lose, where Moyes has created a decent squad for a song. He made the right subs in my opinion with what he had available. We are short in the midfield if we want to keep Fellaini upfront, let's hope the new loan signing makes it.

Some on here like to give stick to the Blue Union, but in reality they just believe in EFC and want the best for us, just like the rest of us, I would hope. How we achieve things is where we all differ. None of us will ever know for sure if we are totally right or wrong, but at least the debate allows us to see that other opinions exist, even if we are not willing to embrace them.

Sure I sometimes get annoyed by comments by other posters, but I would never want them to stop being themselves. I have had some "run ins" with others but I don't take it personally, after all, if someone takes exception to my comments and posts in return, then I see that as a sign of respect, that they have acknowledged my existance. If they are rude, as has happened it makes me laugh, sometimes cringe and occasionally annoys me, but hey that is the way life is.

Toffeeweb is what it is and it works because of its faults, long may it last.

Basically, today has proven how pivotal Gibson is to our system and luckily his stand in, Vadis whatever his name is, will be available in future to cover that position.

I think we just have to move on now and console ourselves that we would have happily accepted six points and top six from the first three fixtures as we ran out against United a couple of weeks ago.

Looking at the game today it was clear to me that playing Neville in the middle with Osman left us very lightweight in there. Against Man. U., for example, Neville played alongside Gibson and Gibson's loss was clearly crucial to this game. We had nobody in midfield to push forward in support of the front players.

Why did we play in blue today? Last week when we beat Villa we could have played in blue but played in white. Today, too many of our rushed passes found WBA players and I wonder if the two strips were too similar and black would have been a better option for us?

WBA deserved their win. They closed down their defence into the penalty box and Pienaar and Baines were unable to thread the balls through as they have bene doing. Credit to WBA but the game hinged on Gibson's injury and Felli's miss and after that we were well beaten.

Crossing everything that it's a blip, perhaps the team got pissed off having to go down the M6 again.

Piss anyone off that trip.

It's simply the disproportionate amount that I object to, and those who want to see him sacked who jump-up when we lose, to dump on him and perpetuate their ideology.

(I know no-ones doing that right now, but there are already vague hints of last seasons narrative returning...after the first defeat).

I hate defeats but we got totally out-played by a team who most of probably didn't rate. We have played very well in the first 2 games and Clarke took full notice of it and worked out how to break us down.

The fact that we didn't have much of a counter was a bigger concern for me and we had so many players off-form.

It's been said by better people than me but we really lack a leader on the pitch; Nev is ok but we really need the kind of bloke who never quits and really rallies the troops. Let's hope this new bloke from Belgium can do that as we need it if we really want to challenge for the top 4.

Heitinga is a leader, I want him back in and I want the others to believe we are a top team

This is no place for quitters or blokes who shirk, not this season... not ever.

Moyes played with too many going forward, leaving us thin in the centre midfield. At times we had a flat front four, leaving just Osman and AN Other to try and control the midfield! So gone was the linked up football of the season so far. And in the end we reverted to the hoof.

Hopefully it was just an off day. So many played carelessly, complacently, and without fight, against an honest but average opposition.

In 2012 EFC have nil chance of winning the league — it's only now about money.

I long ago ceased getting upset.

Your post is the most sensible one I've read today.

What a load of gibberish.

Hopefully Gibson injury not too bad, let's take a deep breath and smash the Mags!

COYB!

I said a few days ago that although we have a really strong starting XI that an injury to Gibson, Pienaar, Jelavic or Fellaini could leave us in trouble. That was slightly shown to be the case today though some credit must go to West Brom who I thought defended very well.

I think if the four players above are fit and playing then we will win more games than we lose.

You missed that last bit out. I think it makes a huge difference in interpretation. At worst, it belies a conviction that he feels we could have got a point if he had them playing KITAP1 in the second half rather than going for it. But in the process he firmly blames the players for the loss, and takes no blame himself, which is a pity."

Michael, that's an interesting conclusion to draw although I am struggling to see how you feel those words show that Moyes is blaming the players and absolving himself of any blame.

If anything, I would say he is blaming himself, in that he wanted more than a 0-0, so he went for the victory, but got caught out and ended up losing. That's how I interpreted his words, but then again, I wasn't especially looking for a stick to beat him with.

Osman, loan him out to the Wigan warriors, forget the quick feet, learn how to muscle opposition off the ball.

Gibson plus Neville, Gibson plus Osman, Gibson plus Fellaini - all workable partnerships. Heitinga plus Osman, Fellaini plus Osman, possible back-up plans. Neville plus Osman - never in a million years.

Ossie and Pip can play CM, but only with a complementary partner. Together they are too slow and too weak.

Hibbert and Ossie down the right - a proven bad defensive combination. For their first goal Hibbert ended up with two players to deal with on his own! Saw this goal first as isolated highlight - first thought was "Is Ossie playing right midfield?"

Great cross (strikers dream, defenders nightmare) and people are blaming Jagielka for not being superman and cutting it out.

Second goal - Howard had to battle past a WBA player and people have a go at him and not Fellaini for totally losing his man in front of goal.

Pienaar and Baines have great track record together - should only be separated by necessity, not choice imo. Mirallas should have gone centre or right to keep WBA defenders in these areas.

Easy to be clever after the event I know, but I would never have chosen the options that DM chose after Gibson had to go off.

This points out why we neede another body in the middle who is a specialist defensive midfielder. Let's hope he cuts the mustard.

Particularly the first paragraph!

You say;
I think it's hugely important that we win the games we play. I absolutely hate the mindset that says it's okay for us to lose one now and again, here and there. That is the attitude of a loser.

Really???

Come on. Considering where we are. Considering we have beaten Man Utd already this season Moyes isn't a loser. He doesn't have the mindset of a loser. Now, I know you weren't actually talking about Moyes. But, I don't think that Evertonians who have this attitude are losers either. Within the very competitive world of the PL I think it's called being a realist. That is looking at it after the fact. Going into the game with that attitude - that's different.

If you are talking about say, Usain Bolt. Your are right. He should never be happy when he loses. But football is different. Things happen within a game that change a game dramatically.

We should have had a pen. The ref was really bad (I thing it was his first ever PL game).
The ball was bouncing horribly as Felliani was about to hit it.

We lost a very important player in Gibson. In a few weeks Moyes will have Oh-did-ya to play in that role. Yesterday he didn't. Kevin Morales will have more games under his belt. He looked very tired after the Orient game.

I too accept yesterday as just one of those days. We have been playing some lovely football. We lost this game. But there is a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. We will get better as the season goes on.

COYB. IMWT.

Anyway, 6 points from these three games is a positive start. After 12 games the defeat had to come eventually.

Heitinga is able to play a raking pass, which isn't really in Neville or Osman's skill set. Heitinga, on paper at least, isn't radically different to Gibson. In circumstances like yesterday's he should be one of our options and should be able to do more than Neville in that position.

The ability to see and deliver a long distance pass on a flat trajectory is one of the things that Gibson probably does better than almost anyone else in our current squad apart from Baines (probably goes hand in hand with long range shooting and corner delivery), and if Gibson is not available then you have to find someone to play a similar way or use a different approach entirely.

I am really worried that Heitinga is a second-choice behind Neville when Gibson goes off, and I am sure it will not impress him either. I would be shocked if he is happy with how little he is being used and if his only role is as a replacement for Jagielka or Distin, then I would expect him to be looking for a move come January.

Going forward, I hope Odjidja-Ofoe will make any need for Neville or Heitinga obsolete. Until that happens, if you want Fellaini to stay further upfield, then Heitinga has to be in the mix.

I think a lot of what worked from January onwards was the spine of Heitinga - Gibson/Fellani - Jelavic.

JH and Gibbo are classy players who can pass and rarely hoof, yesterday after Gibbo departed we didn't have a natural ball player in Centre Midfield. Pienaar can do that job and I think at certain points this season he might but he had a poor game yesterday too.

We got out played and almost every player had a mare but plenty of time to sort the problems out and move on.

We have plenty of players who can pass and read the game well, its very important that we use them rather than HOOF.......

Heitinga is really not much better than Neville in central midfield. He has better passing but worse positioning for my liking and is easily bypassed. Neither of them is a fit replacement for Gibson so let's hope that Ofoe is or that Gibson's injury is not too bad.

From a tactical standpoint it doesn't really seem like there was much different from the first two games of the season (...remember those? We won). Moving Neville into midfield; debatable, but understandable why he didn't want to move Fellaini back given the positive impact he's had up front to start the season.

Sometimes there's Everton games where I just watch us for a few minutes and know that it's gonna be a crappy day and a defeat. Vast majority of our failure wasn't any massive tactical disaster, but the fact that most of the same players who'd been pinging the ball about with glee at Villa Park, suddenly couldn't seem to help but find a WBA shirt with a five-yard pass.

The possibility exists that if you take a similar player to your ideal and work on their deficiencies then you can get something nearly as good. If you take someone who is radically different then you have a harder job to reproduce the effect you want. In that regard Heitinga should be the better bet, assuming he is willing to work to overcome his deficiencies.

The point I was trying to make is that the manager and coaching staff should understand better than anyone what makes their formations work. To me leaving Fellaini upfield and having Neville and Osman together further back was the combination least likely to bear fruit out of those the manager had available, but that is just my opinion. My first choice would have been to bring Fellaini back, put Mirallas on the right and use Naismith in the middle.

I can definitely see the argument for playing Fellaini as the support man against Manchester United. It made perfect sense to use his height and physicality to directly attack a weakness in the United defence at the time.

Having played so well in that game, in that position, it then seemed to me that Moyes didn't feel comfortable changing a winning formation. But in the long term, I think it would be the better option. Using Fellaini up front against United made sense, but it requires significant sacrifices in our defensive midfield setup if it's going to be a long term option.

I definitely thought that the signing of Naismith meant that our "default" this season would be a central midfield two of Gibson and Fellaini, with Naismith playing behind Jelavic. With Mirallas adding quality on the right, and Pienaar on the left, that definitely seems like the best formation.

There's room for flexibility within that - and that's why Fellaini up front against injury hit United and Dunne-less Aston Villa made sense. Unfortunately, what I saw against West Brom was that what I'd initially seen as welcome tactical flexibility from Moyes then became INFLEXIBILITY because Fellaini had performed well.

While I understand the concept of not changing something that had worked well for the first two games, seems to me that it worked *because* it allowed Fellaini to target a specific weakness in the opposition defence. The potential loss of depth in central midfield was outweighed by the advantage Fellaini brought up front. Against West Brom, Fellaini was negated up front and so our midfield weakness became more apparent - the benefits no longer outweighed the costs.

I understand criticism of Moyes, but seriously - there's a degree to which it just becomes ridiculous.

At twenty minutes into any game, an injury usually means as close to a "like for like" change as possible. In this case, Neville covering for Gibson and Hibbert replacing Neville, thus allowing us to keep our most potent player in the first two games in the position in which he'd been so successful.

It didn't subsequently work, of course, in part due to the fact that Fellaini was neutralized far more effectively by the West Brom defence than Villa or United, and also because the team that had played so effectively at Villa suddenly seemed unable to effectively pass to a teammate within five yards.

Hindsight's a great thing, and there are reasonable arguments for doing things differently. At the point at which you start picking up every possible thing as "proof" to maintain exaggerated prejudices (good or bad) about Moyes's management style it becomes a pointless exercise.