Everton lead stats for shots and chances

Good stats though we have had some easy games Man U aside.

I can't believe the players aren't tracking back more!

Moyes out!!!

Great to hear these stats. Long may it continue!

COYB !

When our players start to suck their thumbs after scoring goals or arms outstretched in a 'well, what else did you expect me to do' way like Van Persie then its time worry.

Oooooh most shots on goal! Probably because other than Utd we've played cack teams. Nothing scary in our fixtures to date. Sure you can only play what's in front of you but we've got only two points more than West Brom... so what does our great start mean that theirs does not?

The team of 85-87 scored from all departments of the team and because of this were unstoppable most of the time. This is the first team I can remember since those days who have been doing the same (possible exception of Joe Royle's team) - this speaks of confidence throughout the team.

We have been scoring at nearly 3 a game and new players have settled in very quickly with more to come. Shame we were prevented from buying the young central midfielder from Belgium, hopefully he will be here once we enter the New Year.

All this with two of our 'key' players out for several games when we would usually have dipped in form in the past.

In terms of football this is everything the 'moaners' have wanted for years, this is a vast improvement rather than a misleading 'false dawn'.

Now... beat Liverpool and we will all agree things are going somewhere.

All very exciting — and I hope it continues tomorrow.

Peter Barry, where in Asia do you live?

Remember the old Buddy Holly song, That'll Be The Day

Here's a mob rendition:

"Well, that'll be the day, when you see the light
Yes, that'll be the day, when you know we're right
You say that only teams who are loaded can try
well that'll be the day when I die"

Absolutely brilliant — thank you and goodnight.

Of course, you can prove anything with statistics, but it's been a very impressive start, although a start is all it is. When Moyes pointed that out and told everybody to stay grounded last week he was accused of having the mindset of a 'Perennial Loser' by the Editor of this site....which maybe said more about Mr Kenrick than Mr Moyes.

Some people are never going to be happy and as some have already said on this thread, once you reach the top the only way is down again, so perhaps we should all enjoy the current situation and see what happens next.

BBC radio 4 pm news show tonight:

"Roger McGough, who was born in Liverpool, went to school in Liverpool, even married in Liverpool and the football club he supports is, of course ...... Everton."

There you go then, real Liverpudlians are Evertonians, it must be true the BBC said so.

"Born to Hate, You just can't help it
Talking shite you just don't know it
Why oh why? Why we're you born to hate"

Deffo done now!

I don't mind admitting that I wanted Everton to lose games so that Walter would go, and I don't mind saying I wanted Moyes to replace him. I think Moyes passed up opportunities at City and Southampton around that time. Anyway, my point is once you have reached a tipping point, I don't think you will come back.

They disappear when the team is doing well, and when they do post it is often a post with extreme views, such as calling Moyes a coward and always seems to follow a bad performance.

Obviously only they know the answer to your question, but to the casual observer these people of seemingly extreme views and emotions only seem to light up in the eyes and have fire in their bellies when they are criticising the team.

Personally, I think you are either born a pessimist or an optimist and it's the natural pessimists who I am referring to.

We are playing some great attacking football, and for me there is no doubt that Moyes takes credit for enabling the team to do that. It does feel like the shackles have been removed, and that was always the puzzling thing for me: why have your team playing in shackles in the first place?

But the sad facts are that Moyes has shown himself to be a coward in the past, and that he is a perennial loser — in over 10 years, he has won nothing (technically, that's not correct, but his acolytes seem to forget the massive MLS All-Stars Cup...).

Are we in the process of seeing that unenviable record change now? I'd love to believe we are; certainly something has changed... but that quote someone on the Live Forum found at the BBC soon after the Southampton victory last weekend really felt to me like a right kick in the balls, straight from Moyes himself:

"The first thing is to avoid relegation and then the next thing is to see if we can get a Euro spot. For me that is the way it is always going to be - that's not me talking it down." — The abject negativity of that statement suggests fundamentally nothing has really changed.

Lyndon replaced the story that contained this quote with another one from, of all places, the official Everton website, and it did not include that quote, giving the impression that Moyes had not actually said these words. But there were enough places carrying the story with that exact quote — and substantially different wording from the new story — to indicate that it was probably a separate utterance, albeit on the same theme. But for me, no matter how you want to spin the context, those words above confirm that, whatever might have changed on the field, it is not Moyes's fundamental loser mentality.

Yes, he has the team playing some great attacking football at the minute; my summary of each match accurately reflects the value and quality of the current football, where you will see recently a lot more words like 'brilliant', 'superb', 'excellent' in relation to some of the football we have been playing. Long may it continue.

The game is fundamentally about scoring goals, about winning, and securing maximum points. People will react when we don't score, when we lose, or when we drop points; that is entirely natural and part of the purpose for having these discussion forums is to have people share their feeling and reactions. So I don't really appreciate this snidey elitism that attempts to set different values on the comment of others. We don't all think the same: let's please respect that and not trivialise it.

Lets enjoy the moment knowing, finally, we were all right for once.

Of course the managers who have won the league cup or FA cup with an unfashionable side would rank way below Moyes in ability, but they're 'winners' so... so what point is it you're making Michael?

Moyes is a loser, unlike say Souness, McLiesh, McClaren? All pale into insignificance against FA Cup winner Redknapp though, as he also has an Intertoto win on his CV!

If we picked up a domestic trophy under Moyes, I don't think it wouldplace him in higher esteem from either his supporters or critics, but it is used as a stick to beat him with.

The problem with your thinking is that you're basically quoting the ridiculous Will Ferrell character Ricky Bobby (Talladega Nights) "If you aint first, you're last". That's basically what you are saying when say Moyes " is a perennial loser — in over 10 years, he has won nothing". So he doesn't finish first, therefore he's a loser. So finishing 4th against all odds, that was still losing. Reaching the FA Cup Final but not finishing on top, loser. There is a middle ground, which is sort of what I got from Karl's opinion. It's always extreme one way or another. Moyes is great or as you say in your opinion "a perennial loser". Most people don't subscribe to the belief that if "you aint first, you're last", that's why the Ricky Bobby character was such an idiot. It's far too simplistic.

He is a naturally defensive manager, although you win more games if you can keep the back door closed. He did have relative success with 4-5-1, in which tim Cahill prospered. He has had a piss poor squad over the last 4 years, undermined by us not signing a player of any meaning for an age. The squad aged together.

Thankfully he has renewed the squad with loose change and a new belief. Let's see what the season brings.

Further research shows that Moyes did say those words and was quoted as such on the BBC website. I confess that at the time, and in light of the subsequent comments on the Official Site, I thought that the (obscure) website cited by Michael in the news item had misquoted him.

My issue with the news item, though, was the way in which Michael handled Moyes's comments, using them to beat him with the negativity stick when the news items are supposed to reflect some attempt to hew towards to the neutral. There were enough people in the subsequent comments who took umbrage to it, myself included, and there were calls to balance the article with what appeared to be the full quote (as it appeared on evertonfc.com).

In the wake of another good win that put us second, that news item as originally posted only served to feed those detractors of ToffeeWeb who accuse this site of never missing an opportunity to put the boot in.

While I certainly have been frustrated by the overly conservative attitude of Moyes many times, I actually think it's always been heavily influenced by the players at his disposal. It's *not* like he's suddenly had some massive change of philosophy and decided to change his whole approach. Rather than being inherently conservative, I think that Moyes is inherently simply a pragmatist.

There have actual been numerous occasions in the past ten years when, for intermittent periods, we've played good, attacking, passing football. That's usually when the players to do so have been available. Similarly, there's also been lots of periods when we've played turgid, defensive football; again generally when the players have lent themselves to that approach.

I think all things being equal Moyes will probably lean to a slightly more conservative approach than not, but not to the exaggerated extent to which he is often accused.

Frankly, Moyes is right to play it down, in the same way he was right to tell the players that they usually blow it against teams like Southampton in the past. I raise a glass to keeping it low key, down the pecking order on match of the day, being the 6th favourite for a top 4 finish. Keep on go about our business, keep the chat to a minimum and keep banking the 3 points. You win nothing with kids pundits know fuck all, so why worry.

Spot on robin

If David Moyes were to retire tomorrow he would be forgotten in fifty years. Harry Reknapp won't. In my view Moyes is a superior coach but silverware is what counts.

I live in Asia and I get to see every Everton game live, even the midweek games that kick off at 2 am locally.

But 'we' ( MOB, my perspective there of; wouldn't presume to speak for everybody ) were saying things like...if we have the best squad for 20yrs, WHY ffs won't he just let them play. Why go into games with this knife to a gunfight bollocks, play to try to win instead of seemingly trying not to lose. KITAP1 and doing neither.

I for one didn't as a none negotiatable deal breaker want Moyes to Go, just to change emphasis... which he has seemed to do...and yes I know that some ( the ' Apologists' ? ) will say once he got a bit of cash he did.

The rebuttal to that is, prior to 2012..HE DIDN'T TRY.

And our beef with the so called Apologistas was that too many of them were trying put a mediocrity cherry on a mid table glass of shite and wanted to kid me that it was a chocolate sundae....8th or whatever IS NOT the new 1st.

And am I pleased at where we are and how we are playing?? 'Kin right. If we can get past the window without losing any one and maybe get a couple in it is in our ( and Moyeses ) hands to cock it up

My pick...3rd

Michael, can we have the poll on what fans care about more please. If the choice was between qualifying in the champions league 3 times or winning the league cup 3 times most would go for the former I have no doubt about that given the finances. I suspect the majority would also go for champions league this season over a league cup, which would vindicate to some extent Moyes taking the piss at Leeds. Personally, I wanted the cup this season.

Sorry but this is perfect illustration of the problem I think we have in football now. Fans looking for the results and not the route to them...its a reflection on the way society has gone, fame and glory built on nothing, so it shouldnt be any surprise.

Harry Redknapp achieved nothing by lifting that cup with Pompey and if he's remembered for it it will be with derision and scorn....and rightly so....nothing you want branded on an Everton manager.

The act of winning silverware is meant to be an indicator of the quality of your side. You win trophies as a byproduct of building a quality side - its not a mission in itself. You don't overstretch ridiculously to snatch at a piece of silverware heedless of whatever comes next. You have a squad built to a peak of balance and quality so that you keep winning the games regardless of league or cup....and do it the next season....and the one after that. That makes you a top side...not a one-off oddity.

Look across the park for any proof you like...they were annointed with 'greatness' for their run in the late 70's early 80's...not for that last Euro cup and certainly last years silverware hasnt saved them from general mockery.

Winning silverware one season wont make Moyes any more of an accomplished manager than he is now...winning silverware two or three seasons on the trot will.

We had a good squad that got undermined by injuries and lack of decent replacements. Lescott and jags were a good pairing, arteta and Cahill were a good pairing, and Saha/yakubu. However, these all got injured, faded away or sold.

"Doesn't try"

"Coward"

When the Football League started there were two things to win each season of significance. It stayed that way until the advent of European football and the League Cup. Currently, the the largest number of tophies anyone can compete for is 4. 5 if you count the Charity Shield, 6 with the European Super Cup and 7 if we count the World Club "Have-some-time-off-in-the-middle-of-the-year,-screw-your-domestic-competitions-and-make-a-lot of-money-whilst-increasing-your-exposure-in-the-gowing-and-lucrative-Asian-markets" Cup.

How many managers have their been since the beginning?

How many won things?

All those who didn't are, by the definition touted freely on here, "losers".

On the other hand all of those who have achieved success, in any competition under any circumstances are "Winners".

Really? Look back at the people who managed teams to League Cup or FA Cup victories. Are they all "Winners"?

How long do you go without winning before you are dubbed a loser?

Last season's European Cup Final.

An interfering chairman desperate for a win, a manager who needed to, to have any hope of keeping his job. A team was sent out to play in a way that gave them the best chance of winning. It involved massive defense but they won.

Hail a new winner. - who didn't try.

Why on earth do people on this site accuse any manager of "not trying" when winning is what gives any of us connected with football in any way the buzz.

"No mate, it gives me a buzz but it obviously means nothing to that dour defensive miserable sod who has worked his entire life in football!" I hear you say.

I have always said to mates who moan about their jobs,

"Why have you done it for the past 20 years then?"

Because they're masochists? No, they just like a moan now and again. Moyes must be credited as having that same desire to win as the rest of us, why do it otherwise, particularly in the face of the abuse that he often gets.

And as for "Coward", get a sense of perspective for heaven's sake.

I played with cowards. They were those who pulled out of 50/50s, who didn't turn up against hairy-arsed monsters, who stood with their cuffs pulled over the wrists and their backs to the wind and rain. Well, the last one is a bit much.

Cowardice is the opposite of bravery. I can't see that football management calls for bravery since this implies positive actions in the face of personal jeopardy. Losing to Liverpool? Yes, I don't like it but picking a team and tactics to play them isn't about courage or otherwise.

It is about judging risk and likely outcomes/rewards.

It's called playing the percentages. That's what games are about, Get it?

With regard to complaints about Moyes comments, what do these people want?

Since the beginning of this season all of the managers of teams who have definitely got expectations of being in the mix have played down their prospects.

We would be mad to have expectations of winning the league. But we are not mad to have hope and the more we win the more we shift the balance from hope to expectation.

That being so, what is wrong with "Lets get 40 points, then 50 puts us in the mix for top six and then if we get 60 with games to go, who knows."

Derek, whoever has said 8th is the new first? But the league is not a straight fight anymore. Fortunately the top four is more open this season than it has been for 10 years, which meant a 4th and two 5ths was very good. You might not like it, but don't dismiss circumstances dictating what those without funding in the PL can achieve in the league.

As for the best squad in 20 years, well its Moyes best squad since he arrived (would be a problem if it wasn't. Arsene and Ferguson are seeing how that's an issue) and there was nothing in the ten previous that would come close. The bench mark isn't great to begin with.

What a disjointed post!

I'm sure that you know what you mean; but you lost me after the first inch-and-a-half (three centimetres for the modernists).

Fortunately I managed to cling on right to the end; and your final paragraph was spot on.

Should have started at the end.!

That was an attempt at irony.

Nobody mentioned you personally Nick, it was just the impression I got from some of the, for want of a better discription... the be careful what you wish for, don't rock the boat, remember how bad it was under Walter, if Moyes goes it = automatic relegation, it's the result not the performance ( without on some ocassions getting either ) best of the rest, etc etc

But I think you knew that. Just giving you the pov from this once and maybe future MOB-er

But in the end it's only stats, we're sucking our selves into a none arguement

'Rocking the boat' argument is more about throwing away all the good and potential brought to the club by Moyes (from the views of his supporters), rather than endangering the stability which is the most the MOB deem worthy of praising.

For Pro-Moyes it is nonsense to have him ousted as rarely do chairman fire managers doing well and trade-up with their next. The only ones I can think of are Micky Adams leaving Fulham for Kevin Keegan to take over, and City booting Hughes for Mancini.

Should Kenwright tomorrow say Moyes is out, Hiddink/ Mourinho is in would still be an unnecessary gamble.

Michael is free to say and think what he likes of course, but the opening gambit of that article last Saturday ( hastily withdrawn by Lyndon as sanity prevailed ) showed Toffeeweb up in a really poor light considering the season we have been having. That's a shame as it's an outstanding website.

Michael also says there have been a lot more positive editorial comments this season, which is true, although you would be amazed if that wasn't the case really. That's what makes the ' Perennial Loser ' comment even more off the radar for me. I like Toffeeweb, but there have been times I have logged in, read a load of negativity and just logged off again as it was too depressing and would ruin my mood for the day. And that's why you really do wonder if some people are happier moaning than doing anything else.

Just my view, not wanting to brainwash or tell people how to think.

Are you a trainee WUM?

Who are you trying to be? Martin Mason?