Horrible game ends in horror for Gomes

As for Spurs, it was said this morning Kane was out. The difference when he's out, they play a lot faster, remember Moura scoring a hat-trick last season when Kane was out.

Whichever team gets to counter more will likely create more opportunities.

Huge game for Holgate and an opportunity to really nail down that CB spot if he performs well.

Not sure if it is 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with Davies as a number 10.

Either way, he has picked players that have started playing well in the last 2/3 games. Schneiderlin not in the squad. Sigurdsson on the bench again, correctly so. DCL can consider himself unfortunate not to start. Hopefully a strong performance anyway. COYB!

Everton (2019 model) have none of the above.

Hope we have something to smile about later on – but that selection simply invites pressure.

We are probably just a few points behind were we should be if you took Zouma and Gana and Gomes for an extended period and basically replace them with Iwobi (as JPG misses the season). You were all right, Everton are a top six team. Our form has been understandably bad but the fundamentals are still good. The good ship Everton is turning around. We will win today.

Here we are - first time we play a decent team and he shits his pants and plugs in an extra central midfielder.

Spurs are there to be got at. We're happy to just be competitive with them.

To my eye Spurs just look a tad quicker and incisive, with good movement, than Everton. We've had some good moments, but still look largely static. Walcott showing why he is being picked at the moment, getting in behind Ben Davies a couple of times as well as fulfilling his defensive duties.

The young 'uns Holgate and Davies both playing very well. Tom the pick of our players for me. Gomes a bit hit and miss. Iwobi playing one of his anonymous halves.

Personally, I don't get the point of Richarlison playing central the way Silva's Everton plays. The Brazilian is always going to be short changed trying to battle for high punts forward.

Play it up to him on the ground to feet, with other players in close support, and it would work better. But like this, he is feeding on scraps.

DCL on for Iwobi and a swapping of positions with Richarlison may bring greater dividends.

Another reason why you play forward, not back. Even if a defender or midfielder would have got to the ball they would have been closed down and under pressure to play the ball quickly.

I would have said to Iwobi not good enough and brought him off for Kean not Tosun for Walcott, but it appears Silva knew all along what he was doing, yeah right.

Calvert-Lewin got another good chance not on target. Not clinical enough. Can we play Sigurdsson as striker? He at least can get a shot on target.

Richarlison had been 'on one' all second half and I just don't know what else to say – other than 'stupid'.

Oh well. We did well to avoid a VAR penalty. We have to move on, not sure if that should be with Silva but he's doing just enough to cling on. Some positives but not good enough. We don't even have the more possession stat to fall back on against 10 men.

No appetite to comment further.

VAR must be scrapped.

^^ That. Michael nails it.

Just sick for Gomes. Don't even care about the details of the game, the managerial situation, VAR, none of it.

I think that's the most depressing game I've watched in my 12 years of being born Blue.

Gave up Catholicism but still wonder about purgatory.

Sadly Atkinson probably decides my sentence!

Aaaaagggggghhhhhh!

With every VAR decision going indefensibly against Everton, from last week's penalty against Keane to this week's not given, to no red card for Sanchez. (Not to consider vast amounts of previous evidence and the way the Sky 6 reliably get the benefit of every doubt,)

I'm starting to think we are dealing with an English version of FIFA and a situation similar to US boxing in the 50s.

Too angry about that and André to even comment about the game in general. But for anyone calling for Silva's head, I continue to respectfully disagree.

On another note, do our players use bungees for laces? Some of their touches today were more like clearances. Sidibe just doesn't seem like he's up to it, he continually slowed down our attacks on the right.

Richarlison spends more time lying down than running at this moment in time. Iwobi doesn't suit playing on the left and looked short of ideas and gave the ball away cheaply time after time.

We also should have had a penalty, ref had a stinker and VAR needs to be scrapped at this rate. Moise Keen... doesn't seem like his face fits, the boy isn't getting a chance. Tosun needs to start the next game, great finish.

All-in-all a crap day.

We should have attacked this nervous Spurs team from the start, we had nothing to lose and waited for Spurs to take the initiative, it was poor again.

There was nothing different from the garbage we've been playing all season.

Maybe we have disturbed the football gods by attempting to demolish Goodison for a new ground so the old lady has put a curse on the team.

Or just plain and simple we have a manager whose only experience before Everton is relegation, and then a relegation battle, before being sacked — not the credentials of a manager who you want to take you into a top 6 place.

I can only think nobody at the club has ever had a word with Richarlison, he's now a marked man who the refs see as a cheat.

I never want to see Schneiderlin again. Despite Gomes's injury (I'll only comment on wishing him a full and quick recovery), Davies is good enough. Holgate too. They have to keep it up and hopefully keep improving.

They probably get their Mad Cat woman to write a report about how the Russians had bribed Nigel Farage to injure Gomes.

Son's contact does not break his leg directly.

As for the game, we were poor, lacking confidence, Silva's tactics, it looked like 4-3-3, but no, he played an extra midfielder to stifle Spurs... totally wrong – especially as we were at home. He hasn't a clue, his changes every week are round pegs in square holes.

If things 'even themselves out', we're due a bonanza at some point.

A very poor, tentative performance where we rescued a point. If Silva's got it in him to turn this around, he's hiding it very well.

Whilst a red card may be harsh for Son, I expect his attention was to bring Gomes down so I suppose a red is fair.

I hope Son has a few sleepless nights next week

Onto VAR-get rid ASAP, what should be a tool to clear up controversies, is creating more. Why wasn't Sanchez sent off, why wasn't a penalty awarded agaist Alli? not looking at the ball? neither was Keane. I was all for bringing technology into the game but this is a complete farce.

The only bright note was the performance of Tom Davies and that we never looked like conceding untill Iwobi's howler.

I think the ref actually gave the red in sympathy with us when he seen Gomez's injury, but he originally intended yellow.

Had Gomez of ran on without further incident or maybe just tripped over it would have been a yellow at most.

I don't think there was any malice in Song's challenge whatsoever, it's just tragic and very unfortunate what happened.

Davies is a ray of light - his pass for Walcott (was it?) showed what a fine talent is emerging.

Well done Cenk Tosun, it was a very well worked goal actually and, at the moment, I will take the point.

Dark all round, though.

On days like this, everything feels secondary.

I thought the ref gave Son a second yellow.

Anyone else see a yellow then red come out? if not, then I must be seeing things.

Richarlison does go down too easily, it's true and it goes against him. He should have had a penalty though, he was taken down. Sànchez should also have walked for tripping Richarlison when he was caught out, last man.

VAR, l have always supported but it's not being used correctly. Today again we were denied a penalty for Alli's handball and what's worse, Mina was looked at for something and nothing in their box after an issue against us.

Finally, Silva has to go; should have been in the international break, probably after Southampton.

Also, I bet my house if that Dele Alli handball incident went to VAR in Spurs vs Liverpool or City, it would have been given 100%.

Football can fuck off at the moment, it's a soul-destroying pit of misery at the moment and I just want to get away from it.

Silva doesn't have a clue and the players seem to have no heart or belief.

We are in a sad position and I'm glad that the teams below us are shite.

However if we lose at Southampton we are I'm the bottom 3 and I wouldn't be surprised if that happens

Fucks sake this is a terrible situation for such a proud club

I might have missed something, but I saw the ref run up to the incident, look towards Gomes and then go towards Son with a yellow. An angry crowd scene then broke out (players and coaches), he then pulled the red out for Son.

Maybe I missed the other yellow?

Confidence very low with every player we need, the likes of Digne, Delph, Sigurdsson and Mina, to step up and get the fight back into the team.

Looks bad for Gomes; let's hope he's not out for a long time.

Think the next couple of weeks are going to define our season and whether Silva still has a job.
COYB

In all fairness to Son although he directly caused the initial foul, Gomes going down awkwardly caused the injury; I doubt very much whether Son would have intentionally caused that to happen.

Atkinson pulled his yellow card out first... but I don't think he actually showed it to Son. Later, as he saw the severity of the injury to Gomes, he showed red to Son.

Perhaps not strictly correct per referees' SOP, but justified, I think, in the circumstances.

VAR is a complete shambles! The handball gets awarded if Sky 6 benefit from it! It's all so corrupt!

On another note, 12 minutes added on was a joke! Handball incident over 3 minutes, Gomes injury 8 minutes, 2 other VAR checks, 5 subs, 1 goal, 2/3 other injuries. 15 minutes plus in my book!

Yet none are being penalised for simulation!

As for the football, this was once again dire. Southampton is make-or-break for Silva.

Don't shoot me down too much! That's how terrible we are!

Another question is who valued Iwobi?? A master negotiator, I'd say!! I like his work ethic but 㿊M?! I must be worth 㾸M then and I'm 41 and on the way to being obese!

VAR would be the perfect tool to dish out justice to these divers including our own.

The game was dire but at least Holgate and Davies gave us some hope for the future with their displays. Grasping at straws really. We need reinforcements in January, whatever they cost, because if we do go down, and it is not impossible, we don't have the players to bounce back up.

VAR has ruined the game completely and it's purely a sick joke having to wait that long for a decision on a clear handball.

The arse has fallen out of our season, Gomes and Bernard gone until god knows when and let's be honest what we witnessed was another clueless pile of shit for 90 minutes where the Tosun goal came unexpectedly.

Silva can't set the team up to score goals,we didn't possess a player capable today of putting a single forward pass together.

Richarlison stinks the place out too often these days and Digne is nowhere near the level he was at last season, his crossing has caught Colemanitis.

We are basically a poor team that's going to spend the whole season scrapping for points to stave off relegation let's be honest, 18 months on there is no evidence of progress under Marco Silva, and a glance at the fixture list tells me it's highly unlikely anytime soon.

I think basically he is a very good player with even more potential to improve, and that applies to most of the players we have, I feel genuinely they are being very badly managed.

Starting 11 for me v Saints; Pickford, Coleman, Keane, Holgate, Digne. Davies, Delph, Iwobi. Tosun, DCL, Kean.
4-2-1-3 play Iwobi at No.10 Let Kean drift and Digne and Coleman to provide the width. Two target men up front and try to score as many as poss.
We can not go there trying the same turgid, slow build up that has failed us all season.

Today is about Andre Gomes, today is about sending him our very best wishes for his recovery. Monday is another day. One when reflection must decide how long the current situation is allowed to continue.

Instead, I'm confident that if he was cited retrospectively, no-one else ever would be (as we all remember from the the one-off Niasse incident) and we'd still have the likes of Son flinging themselves about after someone breathed nearby.

On the Son incident, there is in common law a principle known as "the thin skull rule". If I hit someone and they die or are severely injured because they have a thin skull, and I didn't know, my responsibility for their severity of their injury is not diminished.

Son, having fouled Gomes is completely responsible for any injury, no matter whether he intended a severe injury or just a mild tap. He assaulted Gomes and should be punished in proportion to Gomez injury.

But to take the blue tinted glasses off; it's a contact sport and Son has gone in for a bit of payback, but it was never a 'shithouse' challenge. Gomes has landed awkwardly and in 99% of cases, it's just a yellow and move on.

Dissapointed but cant see Silva seeing out December with the football on show and the fixture list. TC saying on sky sports that he wants to be a manager;its working for Gerrard and Lampard.

What's wrong with Big Sam again? That's if we're going down that path again.

It's clear now the agenda is for the top six only (Leicester not included)

Martin Atkinson should never be allowed to referee another Everton game until he retires (should never have been allowed back after the Rodwell Derby)

The game is gone, the sport isn't dead and watching Everton under Silva now is painful as it was under Big Sam at times.

However a few posts today by one particular individual were just disgusting and I don't they should be tolerated.

To say that Marco Silva is to blame for the injury today to Andre Gomes is disgraceful. It gives me no pleasure to highlight the comments below but I feel the individual concerned should take a look at themselves and if necessary the site admins should take action.

Live forum
Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 18:14:50 This is all on Silva. Wearechasing the game playing desperation football. Injuries occur. Silva out
Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 19:04:29
Silva caused the Gomez I Jury because we have to play desperation football chasing around, diving in and this shit show creates scenarios we're injuries occur

Tony Marsh
03/11/2019 : 18:19:45

Silva is one of those people in football that attracts bad energy bad luck bad results bad things just happen. Silva is a cancer along with Bill Kenwright. Pair of c**ts destroying the club.

I feel a bit for Silva, he's under pressure and it shows. I've wanted him gone. Another loss next weekend and it surely must be the end. He doesn't look far away from making us click... the shape looked better recently and if we reproduced what we did against West Ham we win this game. So... instead of going for it he takes lwobi out of the middle and puts him wide. He takes Walcott from his freer role and brings him back wide and deep also. He didn't have the confidence to allow walcott and Iwobi to join Richarlison and our attack was toothless.

Plus points, Davies looked good, accomplished. Holgae also played well, if you forget him being off balanced in allowing Alli to skip past him. Glad Tosun scored.

Bad points, Silva, Richarlison diving (embarrassing), Gomes. Just unlucky. Bad challenge from behind from Son but he then got his studs caught in the ground and then to make matters worse after badly breaking his lower leg he gets clattered by the Spurs right back. We will be lucky to see him back for pre season.

It actually started promisingly but soon enough, obviously under instruction we sat too deep, didnt press, had no momentum.

Where was that fighting spirit and vigour that we saw for the final ten minutes.

What l want won't happen. But l would like a diamond midfield. Schneiderlin at the base with Davies and Sigurdsson, lwobi behind Walcott and Tosun. Play two up top. During the actual game today the easiest thing for Silva to do was to either just change the shape or simply swap Richarlison and Walcott around. Whatever... this season is shit.

There's only one team Gerrard has to beat up there, the rest of them?

Lampard has walked into a very talented squad, let's wait and see for a season or two how things go.

There's no reason why Tim wouldn't be a good manager, I'd just like to see him serve some kind of apprenticeship first.

He needs removing and replacing with an organiser, who can win enough points till the summer, surely that's not too much to ask.
If the powers that be can't see that Silva is an absolutely clueless manager, I'm convinced there's a good chance he will take us down. Knowing Moshiri and his affection for Silva, it won't happen this week or next week but in December.

Stick VAR somewhere dark. It causes more confusion than ever.I also agree that there are far too many Refs who are actually senile and way way past ever being capable of refereeing any game.

Gutted for Andres Gomes and another massive burden in view of the next 2 months of fixtures.

If the manager doesn't get a grip with with Richarlisons version of the dying swan, then we'll end up like we did with Andy Johnson. It's killing any rhythm we create in the games.

A point salvaged today, but this season is going to be very painful, to endure if the players don't get some belief.

Enough said about Atkinson, never fails to screw it up for EFC, and VAR, and for me the game is becoming farcical.

At this rate I sense many will seriously consider if VAR, even in this first full season, is worth it.

Best wishes and a speedy recovery to Andres Gomes.

Paul @106 I've asked this many a time but got mostly nada. I don't think it matters to supporters anymore, though. It's not a "get a top guy," it's a "get any guy who isn't Silva."

Didn't have enough going forward, Richarlison going down too easily but never getting enough support, and it was obvious that Iwobi never had the same confidence to commit players from out wide.

Three subs and yet Iwobi staying on the pitch is not something I agreed with, but sickening for Gomes, and once again having to endure Martin Antagonising Atkinson, makes me even sicker.

I worry about VAR, in its present format, and don't think it will improve until we can all hear what the man in the control room is saying (A-la Rugby) and this is what we should be demanding right now as spectators, because the human error/deception is completely beyond a joke as it stands right now.

I assume that you, like most of us, have supported Everton for many years, when you think back to the many times when we craved some investment so we could possibly get to the levels we believe we deserved.

Since Moshiri has arrived on board, (it could well have been Viv Nicholson) because we have proliferated so much of those long craved funds and seemingly got worse.

I say we, but we, the fans seem to have a better idea of finances and how to utilise them, but have had no influence whatsoever than the so-called experts, but it is sad to see all the same.

Horrible indeed.

Thinks aren't working out for Moshiri are they!

The game was another very poor example of how football is meant to be played, two poor teams looking terrified of losing, not doing enough to try and win the game, with Spurs slightly better and more organised in their play, but still not really doing anything to upset Pickford.

Richarlison, if I had a ten year old son who did what he constantly did today and since he came here, I'd make him go to school dressed as a girl, doesn't anyone at the club show him viveo's of the game and show him how fuckin' pathetic he looks with his play acting.

Glad to get the draw in the end but with the injuries piling up, mostly midfielders, the next two months don't look very healthy for our points tally to grow, no matter who manages the club.

Wishing Gomes a quick recovery, but that doesn't look likely either, sorry to say.

Dave @116 "Richarlison, if I had a ten year old son who did what he constantly did today and since he came here, I'd make him go to school dressed as a girl, doesn't anyone at the club show him viveo's of the game and show him how fuckin' pathetic he looks with his play acting."

Thank you for finding the one note here that made me laugh.

As Sky didn't show any replays this hasn't been picked up as yet, but definitely Aurier goes right in with his studs on Gomez right leg.

I really don't even want to see or think about this ever again, but the only thing that actually caused the injury was Gomes's cleats getting caught in the turf.

Both Son & Aurier indirectly caused the entire situation to even occur, but there wasn't all that much contact by either party. I did only see it once, as it occurred.

We are going backwards not forwards. A unmotivated squad, terrible tactics and no idea on how to change things – he has to go and go now. He will relegate Everton.
,

Holgate is a defender. He got it horribly wrong. I'm not suggesting Iwobi was blameless, neither was Mina.

Holgate was again one our better performers but I saw a mistake and called it as such.

Might sound a bit cynical, but if we start talking telephone numbers they'll come!

It's the expectation brought about by what was paid for the squad that's killing us, we're crap but refuse to admit it.

Sadly this has yet to bottom out, things could get worse over December, when we admit to our true level we can then go and get a manager who can take us forward (but it won't be your Morinho types).

How could the 'manager' wait so long watching Richarlison falling over time and time again, without changing things? Spurs were for the taking. Silva is the worst ever.

I keep thinking back to his first game in charge, when we were far the better team at Wolves, even with ten men after Jags was sent off. We inevitably started tiring. Wolves made 3 subs, and typically Silva made none. this was the crucial factor.

A similar scenario against Bournemouth shortly after, and a boatload of incompetence since. Rubbish team selections, terrible substitutions (or lack of), non-existent tactics etc etc etc.

SACK HIM NOW!!!

The Gomez injury cannot hide that we are in a relagation fight. Is Silva the man? No? Why? Are our players improving? Do we look like improving? No!!

This has to be the most talented squad since supporting Everton. Seventeenth in the league and I fear relagation is a real possibility. The board have a call to make over the international break. Call David Moyes and Tim cahill as number two. This is not a time for not good enough for Everton. The league table doesn't lie.

Get well soon Mr Gomez. We will be waiting for your speedy recovery.

In a weird way I feel the incident has saved Silvas job up til that incident he was looking gone though I think he will be gone by Xmas

The Club need to be ringing Eddie Howe right now

Sometimes as a team you get a bad injury,poor decisions and seems everything is against you
Only thing you can do is get your head down and force a result
Today they did
Not pretty but graft and determination got us through
Stick together always
UTFT

Wake the hell up Everton and change it now.

He came inside, never looking comfortable on the ball, looking like he couldn't wait to get rid of it imo, and played another negative pass, and this was why I thought he never looked comfortable out wide because he kept looking for the easiest option, which is not the case when he plays inside.

Spurs sprung fast, I've read Holgate was poor, but I was delighted with his response to the Gomes injury, because it looked like he was telling his team-mates that we better not lose now after what has just happened to one of our team, and I wish we had a few more players with this attitude if I'm being honest.

Julian@94 describes my feelings better than I could describe them myself, because I'm sick for Gomes and also sickened for the game that I love because it's changing for the worse in front of my eyes, and I don't know if it's because of ineptitude or something much more cynical, which is also making me sick.

These days its a lot murkier as to how much influence and say the manager has. If he has given a list to Brands to go out and find then fair enough but (how did we end up with 3 No 10s??) but if the players are not found who is to blame? (The Spurs manager said as much a while back...)

On the day all you can expect is the team to play as the manager expects with commitment and to the best of their ability. That is the bare minimum of requirements. Clearly that isn't happening, players not good enough or manager not good enough? In truth probably a bit of both but what is not good enough is that its allowed to continue. If they (the board) are to back Silva then they HAVE to fill the obvious gaps in the team, up top, in the middle and at the back. If they have given Silva what he asked for then they have a right to question what's happening.

One last point... I didn't count how many crosses we had today, but they were few and far between. If the ball isn't in the box you ain't going score. Deliveries were poor and too often too late. The goal we scored was from a first time cross.. probably the first, first time cross we had.. in the 98th minute.

Hit the byline, cross the ball, beat the first man, you have done your job... football is simple.

When Gomes was fouled from behind by Son, he went into Aurier's planted leg. The two legs impacted and it was Gomes' that gave way. Aurier went down instantly as well. He did NOT stomp on Gomes with his studs or anything else.

Like the handball incident!

I've seen the replay several times over, it was Aurier's challenge and then an immediate grimace of pain from Gomes. A stud showing challenge.

I'm not going to post the link...

Horrible injury to André Gomes. So sorry for him. Wishing him a full, speedy & successful recovery.

Horrible performance again by Everton (& Spurs for that matter).

Horrible, embarrassing Richarlison behaving worse than my 1-year-old baby granddaughter.

Horrible refereeing by Martin Atkinson & Anthony Taylor (but we all knew that was coming).

Horrible VAR spoiling the national game.

Horrible, acidic, vindictive comments by some horrible people on the Live Forum. (Brian #98, I'm with you mate.)

Horrible day all round.

We will win home games. Enough to keep us up. The away form has been piss poor for years. I don't understand why as we have the greatest away support anywhere.

Maybe we should throw the dice a bit more away from home. try to win 5-4 instead of trying to nick a 1-0.

Moshiri must be asking his chosen man Brands "What have you done with my money?"

When the decision was made, a family member who is a qualified referee expressed astonishment that the decision was no penalty. I said this was no surprise. Every Evertonian knew that we would be royally shafted by VAR.

Eddie Howe for me man, not only is he the best guy to deliver our great club into Bramley-Moore Dock playing attacking football

But also he deserves it, I feel, when we as a club do the right thing, we will progress.

All that said, however, the fault lies 100% with Iwobi.

Southampton will most probably start to improve, make that two teams worse than us!

With our fixtures in December, we may well become that third team, especially if Southampton do what every other team has done to us away next weekend.

Richarlison was his own worst enemy. Without the theatrics, he would have got the decisions. Instead, by the time he got clubbed to the head and was felled in the box, the ref, Twatkinson, was giving him nothing.

Gutted for Gomes and Son may not be that type of player but he dived in from behind with the ball nowhere near.

It's no use continually blaming Silva, we played well against West Ham, he's picked the same players that started that game when possible but they have failed to produce the same form, so who's to blame?

Watching highlights of multiple games gives a false impression of the state of the game nowadays. Unless Everton is involved, I am bored ridgid watching a full game between most of the Premier League.

Changing the manager again is not going to make these players better than they are, at least I don't think so. We are right in the smelly stuff now though I fear.

A few decent managers around though a few of those at new clubs.

I think next weekend may well see the end of either Silva or Hassenhuhtl depending on who loses. A draw could give them both a stay of execution.

You're correct, it was initially yellow, then changed to red upon a glance at the injury.

That red will probably be reversed when the panel meets.

But what did you mean by this? "These days its a lot murkier as to how much influence and say the manager has. If he has given a list to Brands to go out and find then fair enough but (how did we end up with 3 No 10s??) but if the players are not found who is to blame?"

Erik @135 did they really?!

https://mobile.twitter.com/robinvanpolar

Seems like it is totally without point and an unchanging strategy that may work now and again by luck or against the very weakest but in general could reduce even the best squad to frustration and a club to relegation.

Not just the system but that we never try anything different unto games are apparently lost and additional strikes are thrown on in a ridiculous and usually failed attempt to recover something. Only a total idiot could do this and I believe that we have a very serious one as head coach. It's getting to be a nightmare now.

The Southampton game will probably be the biggest game of the season, if lost it should mean the end for Silva and doom/despondancy for the club and fans going into that December fixture run.

This will be the game we'll all remember from this season in the future.

Dave Abrahams, you have made suggestions previously that Iwobi is not keen on the defensive, tackling side of the game. Today, the jury returned a verdict of “guilty as accused”.

The red was given as the tackle led to the result. I don't think the red will be overturned in this case. It was a harsh red card. I've a lot of time for Son, he's a cracking little player and seems a genuine guy. Nobody has a clip of when the break actually occurs. Anyway, time to move on and wish Gomes all the best for a speedy recovery.

The thing l get from this is that we seem to have quite a close-knit squad. If Silva or anyone gets these playing as they should, then look out. I'm not having this about not having the players. We do.

Aurier should be banned for life, if he escapes then it will be yet another disgrace added to the long list that soccer heaps on itself weekly.

And then I look at the dreadful Richarlison and I give up all hope for the future of both Everton and the game. Silva should be sacked just for bringing that disgrace of a human being to the club.

For me, we have given Silva more than long enough. He is not up for the job and looks like he might even take us down. I am betting, with the Gomes injury, we will see Schneiderlin back in the frame, which will mean the guy is unable to learn.

I know it was self-imposed but Frank Lampard has given the better youngsters a shot in the first team and look how well they are doing. It seems that 2 of our younger players, Davies and Holgate, played well today but neither has been given a real chance up to now. Why?

We have some other good young guys who are doing well in the U23s, like Gordon, so why are they not being given a shot? Something has to be done now otherwise we will have Delph and Schneiderlin anchoring our midfield for the Saints game next week and that will only end one way.

If it was Son who did it then the red is deserved because it was a reckless tackle with no chance of getting the ball. I'm sure he didn't mean it and he is clearly already giving himself a hard time about it but a tackle when the ball is too far away is dangerous and a red card must follow surely.

VAR is a joke as no one seems to know when it should or shouldn't be used. Personally I prefer the game without it as referee errors are part of the game and all this stopping and starting just breaks up play.

As for the game itself we were solid, only giving up two chances which yielded one goal. Terrible error by Iwobi; Mina and Holgate were both caught off balance but I thought they played very well otherwise and deserve a run of games together. Both full-backs were very ordinary save for the volleyed cross for the goal. Our crossing is atrocious and I do feel sorry for the forward players having to try to fashion a goal from the service they get.

Tom was my MotM: he had drive, determination and passed the ball very well. He and Mason were excellent and what do they have in common? Young players trying to make their way in the game!

Delph was solid, Richi needs taking in hand as Atkinson refused to give us anything and most likely because of Richarllison playacting; this is shameful and the club should not tolerate it.

The point will buy Silva more time I guess. He seems a decent man but I see no sign of us growing into a good side. He should try young Gordon wide left and move Iwobi back inside with Tom and Fabian. Problem is, he avoids picking youngsters if he can and it is them who would provide effort, energy and guts.

Get well soon, André.

A bad foul which results in an unhurt victim deserves a red. A bad foul which cripples an opponent deserves a very long ban.

On the game itself, we saw Silva back to his basic best. Big team? Extra midfielders. Winning? Extra defenders. Losing? Extra attackers. He's done it since day one. I could write a simple Microsoft Excel formula that could adequately replace Silva as manager.

Anyone saying Richarlison 'goes down too easily' needs to think again. Call him a cheat. That's what he is. I'm finding it hard to watch him. And while he's lying on the floor we're a player down.

On VAR. It's pretty simple. I wrote on here after the penalty at Brighton that players are going to be falling over instantly in the box. If I knew that, why did the authorities not know it?

It's a terrible implementation. A complete balls up. And they had other leagues to base their implementation on so they can't excuse what they've done. Heads have to roll - football is watched by millions and deals in billions of pounds. How do you get away with such a cock up?

The phrase "killing football" gets overused. But this is killing football - the experience is being ruined and we're not even getting consistent decisions!

Bollocks to everything and everyone. Except Andre Gomes - best of luck to him.

I saw Gomes go past Son, and Son fall to the floor holding his face. They did a VAR check, I think as there was that many I'm unsure, but Son stayed close to Gomes instead of going back into attack. He waited for Gomes to get the ball and then he lunged in.

I'm not having it that this was not premeditated. Son waited to go in on Gomes. He went in on Gomes. Maybe it was Aurier who did the damage but Son's lunge caused it. Son did not wait by Gomes to mark him. He wanted to do him. It was completely pre-meditated and it is the worst kind of foul. I hope he gets punished to the fullest extent of the rules.

At the last AGM, Moshiri said mid-table wasn't acceptable; at the moment mid-table looks out of reach for this mis-managed squad. Moshiri must step up and acknowledge he made a mistake with Silva; every game he delays is a game nearer the Championship.

In his 50 odd games, Silva has demonstrated his complete inability to set a team up, cost us countless points with his ludicrous zonal marking, and his substitutions are often rushed in a desperate attempt to save the game.

Why wait until the probable debacles against Southampton and Norwich? Get rid now whilst there's still time for someone to rescue this train wreck of a season.

Apparently Peter Walton sent off Shawcross after the Ramsey tackle 10 or so years ago and changed the card to a red after understanding the extent of the injury. Ref on the radio tonight after the game was explaining this is a valid reason for showing red.

I'd like to put in another word for Tosun. He never complains, he looks a fine team man, he has a quick football brain and he isn't a bad finisher at all. He's not going to launch us up the table, but I like him.

Nice that Coleman found time and consideration to comfort the player who has in all likelihood ended your teammate's career. Freak accident, never intentional, he is not like that etc etc. He did it, that's the fact. Coleman personified all that is wrong with our attitude. Pathetic.

Iwobis pass caught the whole team going forward. after the nutmeg Holgate had little option but to race back, He needed to ensure Ali wasnt clean through, but in the process it has to be said, he sold himself and Ali was able to change direction and was in to shoot with his favoured right.

He should kept him on his left.

So many depressing things happening today.

Lyndon penned a piece about "mishandling" Kean recently. I agree with him more tonight than I did this morning.
I've just about had a belly full of Richarlison. You try to overlook the fact that he is footballs biggest fanny because he is capable, but His antics turn my stomach. Kean must have been sitting there thinking. "why am I sitting here when that prick has spent all avy rolling around in faux agony ?"

Silva just used up his eighth life.

Too upset to talk about Gomes. All happened too quick for me to be sure. So I will leave it alone

Everyone demonstrates their support in different ways. Tony, by hoping we will lose and describing the coach as a "cancer". I hope Tony doesn't find this post "snidey", particularly now that I am his "boyfriend".

Proper blue, is Tony, calls it as he sees it. Top man.

Irrelevant in terms of footballing ability, I know, but I've had my fill of Richarlison's embarrassing antics.

Poor André Gomes. I wish him all the best.

Simple question: Who made the decision to buy 3 No10s? Rooney, Sigurdsson and Klaassen? I doubt that was Silva.

We can speculate but my point was that, since Directors of Football are now regularly appointed "to work with" managers, responsibility for purchases and transfer selection are not now the domain solely of managers. Hence who takes responsibility? It wasn't Brands but his predecessor but irrelevant regarding the manager.

The manager's job now is increasingly limited to training, team selection and matchday performance... the rest is getting grey...

Son should get a lengthy ban for his recklessness, the officials as well, as they were shocking, but we knew they would be as, true to form over the years, that referee has been a major burden on Everton results and his shocking decisions.

I hope that the squad will show more adventure and belief at a Southampton, but characters in the team, and belief, are in short supply.

The next 2 games in this form are our main chances of points the next couple of months. Let's hope Beni gets into the squad and can pick up, but it's been a long, long time.

I guess Schneider if fit will be back in the middle next week.

Hope eternal.

Okay, I see the confusion now. You used an example not made by either of our current guys to illustrate how a DoF and manager do or don't make decisions. Hard to say, we've never had a DoF before Brands.

An awful game capped by an awful injury. What the hell is going on at Goodison? Dark days indeed.

We should stand up here. Poor decisions going against us in consecutive weeks. You can respect the law and be critical of its application. That is where we should stand up.

You say that you 'think this is the most depressing game in your 12 years as a born blue''. I would say, that you must have 'led a sheltered life'. I'm not wishing to be controversial, but am I right in thinking that you are one of our American supporters? If so, you can always switch off your TV.

As a season ticket holder, it may be argued that I could relinquish that privilege but, as a supporter since 1948, my feelings for Everton are deep-rooted. I suffer along with thousands of other 'Blues'; we are sometimes accused of accepting mediocrity, the truth is we endure mediocrity because we can do nothing to alter matters.

Jamie, if you intend to be a 'Blue' for the long run, be prepared for 'One or Two' bouts of depression, it's the lot of a Football Supporter, but nothing lasts for ever.

I must have burned down an orphanage in a former life... or one of you fuckers did!

Couple of things from my view on US TV.

I agree completely with Mike Gayne's assertions that Auirier was not to blame for Gomes's injury. After the tackle by Son, Gomes is still moving forward with the ball but as his foot is planted and his foot twists there is a look of pain on his face as he is falling and before he falls into Aurier. The ball is on the ground, Aurier has every right to make the tackle, but Gomes falls into him.

Belatedly, on our coverage, a camera angle of the handball by Deli was shown which apparently was not available to the VAR review. It clearly shows a handball. Why was this not available? Why have VAR when everybody is watching TV replays and not all of them were available to make the correct decision?

I believe that now the Head Coach advises the DoF of his requirements and who he gets and at what price are determined by the DoF and the Chairman. The Head Coach will have an input but would have no veto only perhaps a choice.

This would vary from club to club but in a set up like Everton's or Spurs' the Head Coach isn't a manager but a reportee to the DoF. I'm not sure that any clubs have a "Manager" now and, given the turnover of modern Premier League, clubs quite right.

A head Coach should be that without the additional responsibility of dealing with player purchases and contracts.

Tony, I suspect clambouring back (sorry can't spell that) and not covering effectively.

"and am intrigued to hear what you thought you'd seen between Davies and Silva, mate?"

Tony, I'm just picking up on what others have been saying. A bit of a spat between them??

So so sorry for Gomes and I hope he recovers quickly.

Get rid of Silva ASAP, I don't want to spend another week frustrated and worrying about our position with that clown in charge.

Get him out of our club and bring in Mourinho who is a character who will ensure more wins for us than Silva ever could,

By the time our stupid board realises Silva must go there won't be any top line managers out there and we will gamble on yet another prick.

GET RID OF HIM NOW

Also keeps trying hard despite it not quite happening here! Well done Cenk!

I think they are saying he intended to foul (or stop) him. Obviously he never intended to break his ankle. No player does that.

Why can't the refs explain to us? Is it because of the industrial language used in football that they can't/won't Mike-up these refs, who are obviously taking instructions from the VAR studio.

Let's make football transparent, and we might begin to get better officiating, because as it stands the standard of refereeing is not good enough, and it's definitely not consistent enough either.

Thats my point.. responsibility for team selection is made by the "coach" but the individuals purchased by the club is not his alone.

If a "coach" is responsible for team performance it must be shared by those who bought players who may or may not have been the coach's choice or were not bought at all.

That's not saying Silva is not to blame but perhaps not solely!

The game itself was absolutely dire. We were abysmal.
The ref was an absolute disgrace
I thought VAR was a mistake before it was introduced and since t was introduced nothing has changed my mind. After today supporters should kick up shit because it is ruining our game.

Richie is a disgrace and is becoming an embarrassment to himself and the Club.

Holgate and Davies have to stay in the team, however, after Bernard and the Gomes incident, that won't be an issue.

Regarding Gomes, well everything has been said. However it will not surprise me if the red card is appealed and downgraded to yellow.
Son Defoe meant to foul Gomes. The stumble/stubs getting caught broke the ankle. The other Spurs player went in whilst Gomes was going down.
I saw the Son tackle and the other Spurs guy clattering into Gomes but had' realised it was bad until the players reacted.

The manager has to carry the can for this shambles of a season regardless of inept senior management contributions.
We really are in the shit

Football has got so much to sort out, and the biggest thing wrong with the sport is that cheating is accepted.

It's okay if it goes our way, but it's not when it doesn't, and VAR is not doing anything positive to change this. How can it be when some of us are genuinely even questioning the integrity of so many officials.

I'm like a scratched record, but for the sake of our/my sanity, why can't they Mike-up these refs?

Son's foul was certainly intentional. However, I'm certain that he did not intend to break Gomes ankle. However, he did intend to harm him, it's just his action resulted in a worse outcome than he would have liked. This does not absolve him of any responsibility.

I would also remind you of Neil Ruddock's tackle on Andy Cole, Roy Keane's deliberate crippling of Alf-Inge Haarland, and more locally, Jimmy Case on Geoff Nulty.

There have certainly been players who deliberately set out to injure others. I would certainly not put Son in this group, he's a player whose style I like, but his actions today deserve serious criticism.

Relegation is looking more and more probable and will become reality unless decisive action is taken.

Silva must go and arguably Brands too

David Moyes is probably the only sensible choice as next manager in the current situation even if only a short term appointment to preserve premiership status

He didn't mean for the outcome in any way shape or form but it shows what an angry reaction can do.

That is my opinion of it. I thought we were the better team and Spurs only took the lead through a mistake from the poor Iwobi.

What he does as a player I don't know and now Gomes is out we look very very weak in all positions centrally.

I wish Gomes a healthy recovery but it will be hard to count him as an Everton player again sadly..
I don't see him coming back to this level after an injury like that.

After getting up he did not recover his position. He waited and his first action was to lunge in on Gomes.

Coincidence?

I think not. I think Son was waiting from him and Son was always going to get Gomes back for the elbow or whatever he thought Gomes did.

He lunged in with full intent to catch Gomes. There is no doubt in my mind that this was a deliberate and intentional act.

Of course, he did not intent to cause serious injury. God knows what he was thinking. But he waited out of position and went in lunging at the guy who he thought wronged him.

Premedited and deliberate.

Now the manager is without another key midfielder who has only just got going and very edgy at Centre back.

I thought Holgate and Mina were superb today I must add.

But by your own analysis the leg break wasn't premeditated and deliberate - " he did not intent [sic] to cause serious injury".

He's paid a fortune, has spent hundreds of millions yet the overall squad strength is the worst for years

Song did no more than tap Gomez on the foot, whether he was honestly going for the ball or he wanted to bring Gomez down only he knows?

One thing I do know is the contact with Gomez was never ever a leg breaking challenge and it was as the ref thought by producing a yellow at first. Gomez tragically planted his foot in the ground while his body momentum was going in a different direction, could Song have had any idea that was going to happen?

This bothers me to no end. You have zero clue and this is 100% a baseless accusation. He did what 1,000s of footballers have done since the game was invented; made a reckless and dangerous tackle. It's why red cards exist. 99% of these tackles don't result in any injury at all, let alone one of this apparent severity. So you must feel this way about every single similar tackle, right?
.
We're all gutted for Gomes, but your comment here is ridiculous IMO. I'm willing to bet had it been Gomes making a tackle that resulted in Son breaking his leg you wouldn't have spent 3 seconds of your day thinking about it.

Very disheartening to see any Blues supporter thinking this way.

Andre Gomes.

E-S

I agree with much that has been said and I too feel awful about the trauma that Andre received. I did not see the 'foul' I was in UB2 but could immediately tell that it was a serious accident by the way the staff flocked to the stricken player.
I wish Andre a speedy recovery.

I also wish I could extend the same wish to Everton Football Club - a speedy recovery- but I fear that speedy it will not be!

To say that I am totally despondent about the state of play at Everton - the way the game is going, not helped by VAR and referees that are incapable of making the right decisions at the right time, is an understatement.

To say that I am totally frustrated and really pissed off at the play-acting of Richarlison is also an understatement.

Football at Goodison Park in the 21st Century is not what I willingly paid to see. Directing their comments, probably at VAR, the Spurs fans today called to have their Game of football back - I do not see that happening, we are on a downward slope. There is no going back, there is no quick fix for football as we knew it - money, greed, poor management, lack of commitment, fans expectations have now taken Football/Soccer too far away. It is all about money!! There is nothing to clap about at Goodison these days - how sad therefore that the loudest and longest clapping today was for Andre Gomes being stretchered out of the Park End.

Coming back to that No7 of ours, he may be top scorer, he may be many things but to my mind he is an absolute disgrace to himself, to the club and to the fans many of whom sat around me today and showed complete shame at the way he conducted himself on the pitch. The sooner someone in authority tells him how to behave, the better.

I may have said this before, but it is days like this that have driven a wedge between me a loyal fan and the current Everton set-up. It is days like this that confirm my thinking that it is time to stop going the game. This will be my last season - such a pity it should end this way.

Medical treatment has improved immeasurably over the years - hopefully Gomes can make it back and still be the same player.

I also don't think you can attach any blame to Son. He had been knocked by Gomes just before, he was aggrieved and wanted to give him a knock back. Gomes himself has done similar several times, most players who have ever played the game have. But all Son wanted to do was trip him up. The injury was more to do with Gomes getting his studs caught in the turf and Aurier making a blocking challenge at the same time than Son's challenge, which was fairly innocuous to me.

Someone has said it previously, but what a guy Cenk Tosun is. He never complains, always gives 100% and wants to stay and fight for his place. Today, he was first on the scene consoling Gomes, he scored the equaliser, and even found time to check on Son after the game. What a genuine guy he is. I hope it works out for him here at Everton, because he can score goals if he is given the service, but he needs the team to provide for him...

Brent in law the act can be premeditated and deliberate without intending to cause the injury sustained. If you jab someone and they fall and hurt their head and suffer serious injury it doesn't take away your intent to carry out an act of vengeance. It's mitigation as to why you could be dealt with less seriously than if you had intended to cause the injury sustained.

Son waited for him. Son stayed out of position. Son then lunged for him. This was a deliberate act. He thought about it before he did it. It was premeditated.

I think Seamus Coleman - and our other players - have solidarity with Gomes. But that doesn't preclude them from showing compassion to the Spurs players, some of whom would have also been horrified by what happened, especially Son and Aurier. I think he's a class act - especially considering the difficult emotions he himself must have been suffering.

Very little is that simple. Of course he didn't intend to break his leg. If he deliberately fouled him at that distance away from the ball with the intent of breaking his leg then you're talking about a life ban and criminal charges.

We're talking about a red card. Just a red card.

It's not an accident when you deliberately foul someone and they get seriously injured. You might not have desired that outcome but the unlawful act that you deliberately committed had the potential to bring it about. To let him off with that is the coward's punch defence - "usually when I punch people they don't fall and hit their head on the kerb". Guilty right? If you deliberately do something wrong then you're responsible for any reasonably likely outcome.

I can have some sympathy for Son while absolutely holding him responsible and expecting the red card to be upheld. He made a mistake; a rash foul in a heated game. He didn't stamp on the guy, he just petulantly brought him down. The outcome was so much worse than he intended but that's the chance you take when you deliberately try to bring a player down

When you tackle you go for the ball.

Now I'll agree that plenty of people have gone for the player without wanting to seriously hurt them (leaving one on them might be another way of referring to it). That's pretty much what Son did.

And don't start with that "you can't 100% know his intent" stuff. If you run after a guy and bring him down, you meant to foul him - let's at least get that bit straight. It's not even in question.

The serious injury to Gomes would have affected all our players, and in the end I thought we did very well to get a point out of the game. But of course, you, no doubt watching from your little screen, thought it was all Silva's fault. It's posts like yours that want to make me vomit.

This will be my last post on here, and to be honest, I won't miss the absolute shite that is written on here.

So thank you and good riddance to the lot of you.

Exactly.

You can say that due to Son tripping him up he then lands awkwardly, and Aurier turns his foot over (there's a photo on Twitter showing Gomes ankle turning the opposite way to the way it was hanging to the right later) so in truth it was a combination of things all happening very quickly.

Personally I don't think Son tried to injure Gomes, and it's 3 things happening very very quickly that lead to the injury. As numerous ex pros have said, it's more of an accident than an intentional injury.

We can argue about it till we're blue in the face, and God knows when I've had serious injuries (broken arms, legs, back twice) I've run them over in my head (sometimes for years) but ultimately it's meaningless and the only thing that matters is recovery.

Intentional fouls happen. Freak results rarely do.

But still, it's footballers. I won't be callous and trivialize this with "shit happens," but only because of how bad the injury is. I noted above that 99% off the time, an intentional foul doesn't result in this outcome. Some people here are acting like Son took out his knees with a tire iron.

A confirmed ankle break with dislocation. Obviously a serious injury but with great surgery, good healing/recovery and physio he can come back from this. Mentally it will be tough for him but I'm sure Seamus and the boys will be there for him every step of the way.

I must also congratulate Tosun today. He was first on the scene with Gomes looking after him and rather than being upset/disturbed by what he witnessed it fired him up and he got the goal. Sometimes bad times can bring you together, if ever the squad needed motivation to pull together its now...……..come on you blues were all down but were not fucking out.

If you deliberately do something that causes a freak result then you are culpable. That's not the same as saying that you intended to break someone's leg.

I'm not asking for hanging to be brought back, I'm suggesting that Son is responsible for the injury and deserves his red card.

I swear that Sky TV and the FA rules panel has warped people's minds. They've been told what a leg breaker looks like and anything else is completely innocent.

There's nothing innocent about that foul. Try it in a Sunday League game.

We need warriors right now. We need players who will fight. I thought we did fight to get that goal back and we need our beat fighters in the XI. We can worry about finesse in a few weeks time when we are hopefully back up the table.

Cenk Tosun could have thrown the towel in and counted his wages. He's done nothing but work and he deserves a chance to show he can lead the line.

Does anyone else think that the game on MOTD2 looked nothing like the game they watched? Clever editing actually made us look like we gave spurs a good game and should have won? I'm a bit confused at that tbh!

Someone above said that we won't go down as there's 3 sides worse than us. Really? At this point I'm not so sure. We do have a decent squad and some talented players. But it's the lack of character that concerns me. There's no balls, no thirst for a fight. I don't think this bunch of players are equipped for the deep shit we are sleep-walking into. And Silva and his staff just don't have what it takes to equip them. This is too big for him. His team almost represents him. We are a personality free, characterless, beige, void of an outfit.

I had little expectation of a win today. If they haven't done it already, the board needs to meet this week and sort a plan of action. After we inevitably get beat next week, Silva needs to be dismissed before this gets messy. We can then use the 2 week break to appoint and regroup.

Some are being philosophical about it for others its still a bit raw.

We love the club and the players and no one wants to see that happen to a boy in blue ever. I would ignore much of what is said at the moment as its said with raw emotion.

Rob didn't miss a game home or away last season. How many on this site can say that?

Rob is the truest of blues.

Post of the day... bravo young man, bravo.

Grade A flouncing.

Evidence for that, Steve?! IN HIS MIND?! Evidence for that in a court of law? Were you in his mind? Who was?

And what does "do him" mean in your case in a court of law?

But, as has been said, I think Son's frustration got the better of him, and what was evidently a deliberate snide tackle, precipitated an unintended outcome. Unintentional doesn't make it unforeseeable though, and he has to live with that.

Not the injury he sustained but injury. Whether it's a minor injury or not, that lunge was only made to cause Gomes injury.

I fail to see how you could come to any other conclusion.

" If you run after a guy and bring him down, you meant to foul him - let's at least get that bit straight. It's not even in question. "

Ernie, what happens if you run after him wanting to kick the ball and when you put your boot in, he accelerates and you bring him down, did you chase after him to bring him down?

I've been as miserable as most on here and was writing us off last weekend. But we will come again, we truly will.

On Gomes, albeit the Beeb deny us the opportunity to see the full coverage, it seems to me ("seems" being the caveat) that Son committed a bog-standard foul which in a nano-second escalated into an injury nobody could have foreseen or prevented. Horrible for Gomes (and his family and friends - my sympathies to them all) and very worrying for us indeed for the remainder of the season (especially as the career-long crocks Mina and Delph also ended the match heavily limping. That said, will all these injuries PLEASE result in team selections that unexpectedly produce victories? Otherwise we really are in the shit by the way).

Also, for the info of those who think I'm excessively critical of Kenwright, I'm contemplating, after today, penning an O.P piece linking him/us to a certain bloke who featured in Bohemian Rhapsody.

Would anyone be interested though? Ha-ha!

Had Gomes not suffered the injury Son would have been given a yellow for a foul, of course it was premeditated, loads of them every game.

The game is being ruined by a bunch of halfwits who haven't got a clue.
Overseen by a bunch of corrupt officials.
From crap referees who also operate a crap VAR system the game is going to ratshit
And it doesn't help when it's full of cheating bastard players diving all over the place, unfortunately one wears our shirt

Intent to foul? 100%
Intent to injure? My eyes have rolled into the back of my head.

I'd rather you go back to relentlessly defending Silva lol

10 Seconds after he made that Tackle Son realised the harsh reality of what he had done, he set in motion with his very cynical foul something that cant now be undone.

COYB

The disgrace that is VAR went against us not once, but twice, two clear penalties not given because the ref isn't allowed to go to the touch line and view the same footage the VAR morons are looking at. It helped cost us the game, end of.

When he's not behaving like a cheat going to ground at every opportunity, Richarlison is a decent player. On another day he'd have had two goals, but this is Everton and somehow it just isn't happening.

Son's foul on Gomes was a nasty bit of afters which few have mentioned and because it's Everton MOTD2 didn't even mention the earlier incident that angered Son. He was still angry when he brought Gomes down with a reckless, dangerous tackle. He surely couldn't have imagined what would be the horrible outcome, but I think he was angry and meant to bring Andre down. What followed was appalling and not directly at Auriers door either. It was a terrible result of that Son tackle but the seriousness of the injury was all about bad luck with Gomes catching his studs, his leg stopped and Aurier seemed to smash into it. Happened in front of us. News tonight seems very slightly less horrendous as a broken ankle and dislocation might be horrible to see like that but I'm thinking, is this a better recovery in prospect than the original reports of compound fractures on his ankle and lower leg? Regardless, very good player, very likeable good club man methinks, all the best for a long road ahead.

Oh and the footy ? We are so bad in the final third despite my comments about Richarlisons performance today. I honestly didn't think we were quite as bad as the comments suggest here and that's unusual for me!! Mina did well I thought, Holgate ok and improving in the only position he should ever be asked to play. Sidibe keeps Coleman out for me. Davies improving. But overall the thing that matters is we don't win.

Yet have two absolutely must win games next against Southampton and Norwich before getting tonked by Leicester away.

We have to find a way to win. December is a nightmare. If we can't beat those two and scrape a couple of draws before the end of December it's a crazy relegation battle from January and I'm just not sure how that will go

Gamble on two of the kids ? Gordon could be ready. Simms a massive punt but why not for once in a blue moon shouldn't a punt on a kid work for us? We've had such honestly dire luck so far, but wishing for a change in that is just what it is, wishing.

Winning is the only progress.

So the penalty fits the outcome not the offence per se?

You often make mountains out of molehills, but you can't be serious in your assumptions that Son was deliberately trying to injure Gomes!!

“ that lunge was only made to cause Gomes injury.”

I've thought this before in our exchanges, but have you ever played the game? Has anyone ever kicked you, and you then thought you would kick them back? That's all this was. Gomes put an arm across his face, so Son thought he'd trip him up. That's it.

Gomes' injury is not just down to Son - he got his studs caught, and Aurier also put in a block tackle at the same time. You cannot lay this solely at Son.

He didn't intend to injure Gomes, he intended to give him a kick I imagine, there is a very big difference between the two.

It was made to bring him down...…..which it did with unfortunate consequences.

He knew what he had done and the horror that followed was ultimately caused by him.

Slow mo's and pictures can say a million different things. View it in normal time. The foul was cynical, not dangerous, as someone else has just said. He wanted to trip him up, no more.

If you intend to cause even the most minor of injuries and that leads to something more serious, then you are guilty of the more serious offence.

This was not Son tracking back and diving in recklessly. He was waiting and he went in to catch Gomes.

I'm not the only one who saw this if you look above.

Football could so easily learn from Rugby, a sport that seems to implement a lot of basic common sense rules; advancing play 10 yards every time a player complains or hassles him, presents the audio in real time for all to hear as their version of VAR reviews an incident etc. etc.

VAR today was tested on a number of occasions, with two potential penalties being reviewed and overturned, one after an interminable review. Neither was given. It also checked on a "professional" foul on Richarlison and gave nowt. He was clearly tripped by the last defender. Son's red card was then reviewed and the referee was overruled!

Furthermore, it's most infuriating to hear the likes of Pochettino arguing that Son's dismissal cost his team victory when the one thing that should be paramount on his, and many others minds, is the well being of Gomes. He's the victim, whether intended or not.

A very, very sad day Andre Gomes and I sincerely hope he makes a full recovery.

He'll get fantastic support throughout his rehabilitation, that's for sure.

He didn't intend to even give him a minor injury! He just wanted to give him a kick, let him know he was standing up to him after getting an arm in the face previously.

You can give someone a nudge, kick, push etc without wanting to injure them...

Correction: in the EPL, not football. Unless you feel that football is only played in England. For that reason, we're probably aligned in feeling that VAR shouldn't be in the EPL.

Everything else you wrote was spot-on IMO. Just wanted to point that one thing out.

Rob, most of the people on this site want Silva gone, and the league position is now critical, what's so wrong about the Chris Jenkins # 203 post?

We have shocking run of fixtures coming up and could well and truly be anchored to the bottom 3 come the new year, it's not impossible.

Is what Chris Jenkins said so terrible?

So no, you'd be prosecuted for the major offence in theory. The reality is that the CPS grossly under charge to push conviction rates up and keep costs down, but that's a different story.

I can't accept the headline of this thread, 'Horrible Game Ends In Horror For Gomes' it's my view that both teams [in patches], played some decent football, and a neutral would have enjoyed it. The trouble [in my opinion], is that we're so concerned by our League position, that any game we fail to win is regarded as 'Horrible'. I also think that we must accept as supporters that we play our part, we must acknowledge that the players don't play poorly on purpose.

It may also be true that I'm not as demanding as some others, I believe that Son meant to foul Gomes, but I don't believe that he meant to hurt him so badly, as some other posters do.

If you try to seriously injury someone and they break a fingernail, then you would be charged with common assault (s39). However it would be a high level common assault and you could expect to get six months in prison. The court may even waive your credit for an early guilty plea if the offence is that horrific and it was caught on CCTV and so your conviction was deemed inevitable. Whereas if you intended to break a fingernail, then you'd walk away with a fine.

I think some of this is fuelled by the American culture of where there's blame there's a claim. Sometimes things just happen. Gomes' injury can also be traced back to the fella that passed him the ball if you like!

In reality, Son has fouled him. Son intended to trip him up, or give him a kick if you like. The injury happened after that. To lay it at Son's door is a massive leap.

Things happen sometimes - we can't always go back to blame someone. Gomes got injured trying to evade his challenge, but football is a contact sport. Fouls are part of the game, and there are sanctions for them.

I'm more angry with Richarlison than Son. With the amount of time he spent on the floor today pretending to be injured, I hope he is proud of himself tonight.

Anything good, Daniel?

An assertion and no more.

Rob (229) - I don't know if you have a running feud with Chris Jenkins but if not then your attack on him seems a tad disproportionate.

No, I don't think premeditated fouls should automatically be a red card. A good example is Fernandinho of Man City. He seems to make professional fouls every match I see him play. They are premeditated – he deliberately fouls the opposition to stop them counter-attacking. But most are worthy of a yellow card at most.

Of course, he could do one of his professional fouls, and a player could break an ankle trying to evade his challenge. Would this make what is normally a yellow card challenge into a red card? I don't think it should.

Do you?

I agree entirely!

He didn't wait for him to give him a gentle tap. He didn't lunge to give him a gentle tap. It was a lunge full of vengeance and intent to cause injury, no matter how minor.

Conjecture again.

Our very own players have brought players down in a cynical fashion to stop them countering and got yellow carded for it.

These tackles happen all the time – it was just bad luck that this one set in motion something that had serious consequences for poor Gomes.

Again, you have to judge the challenges on merit (terrible choice of word but I can't think of a better one!)

I do still think there can be revenge tackles that are only worthy of a yellow, and revenge tackles that are worthy of a red. There is a difference between a two-footed lunge and a shove, for example. You can go in strong on someone as a result of receiving a strong challenge previously. The amount of force used would have to be taken into consideration. But I don't think all revenge challenges are worthy of a red...

Exactly.

I would be behind you if it was a case of pre-meditated malice to injure, like Keane on Haaland, but this was very far away from that.

I'm sure he didn't intend the lunge to result in a break but, nevertheless, it should have been a straight red.

And he should serve the longest ban he can. I think it's 3 games for a dangerous foul. He should not get away with 2 games or less.

I don't think Son meant to hurt him. He wanted to foul him back, if you like, having had an arm in his face from Gomes just before. But that doesn't mean he wanted to hurt him.

Players often respond back in kind if they are on the receiving end of a poor challenge. It doesn't mean they are trying to hurt the other player. It's more to come out on top, to win your battles.

Conjecture. For you to demonstrate if you make the assertion "to get their revenge"!

I'm afraid I'm pretty limited as far as my world of football is concerned, in that my viewing focuses mainly on the English leagues. Mainly on Everton and a little on Scun thorpe United! I haven't really seen its use and implementation in any other league.

Judging by your comment I assume it's much better elsewhere, like Rugby, than in the Premier League?

BTW, where are you based? Hadn't seen your name/posts until recently. You make some very good points.

Maybe we should just take him out back and shoot him?

He got a red, I don't even know what you're debating here. He'll get his 2-game suspension like a straight red earns. What am I missing?

Sick about yet another serious injury.

Sick of this VAR nonesense.

Sick of bad refereeing which we always seem to get the bad end of.

Sick that the management and staff can continue with this bullshit excuse for an Everton team.

Sick that we can't even beat a weakened side who haven't won an away game since last January.

Sick that we are so divided as Evertonians.

Sick of feeling Sick every fucking weekend.

Sick that a doctor can't cure this sickness.

I watch a good amount of Bundesliga (VAR introduced in 2017-18), and La Liga (in 2018-19), so it's still very new to the sport, but they use it properly.

Thank you for the compliment! One day I'll understand rugby...

I didn't say anything more - you've just inferred your own narrative. There are enough actual points of interest on here to discuss without you inventing new ones.

Steve F, Oh, I didn't know that was a position anyone took. I thought it was a straight red too.

For that hour, Spurs were in your basic KITAP1 mode – happy with a draw and if they nick one all well and good... but they weren't going to bust a gut doing it. Do they have a Champions League game in the week? I don't know, not really following that stuff.

Everton seemed happy for a draw as well, but didn't, apart from the obligatory being at home... 'Well I suppose we'll have to have a bit of a go' attitude, really want to bust a gut in case they got caught on the break.

Paying Spurs too much respect?

The fear in the back of both managers minds made for a very dull half paced game?

It took an under-hit directionless howler from Iwobi to change the game... nobody on the field was going to set up anybody other than by accident... I exclude Davies from this, he always looked to play the ball forward to good effect – but then nobody up front did much with the little he supplied.

Where does that leave Everton? 17th and glad there are three teams worse at the moment... if only marginally worse.

If the powers that be are still in 'make your mind up, Mavis' mode, then maybe Silva can point to extenuating circumstances, citing everything that happened after 63 mins... ignoring the previous poor preseason build plus the last ten games and one hour. Make a mystical gesture with his fingers while saying... 'This isn't the manager you want to sack, he can go about his business.'

That and the lack of an obvious replacement must be all that's keeping him in a job.

We restricted them to two chances. We gifted them one of them. We didn't get going really. I hoped the first half would set up the second and we could go up a gear.

I think I posted at half time that I thought Gomes needed to do a little more and I thought he would. I thought Kean would come on revved up and score his first late in the game. Of course that didn't happen.

We had more than enough chances to win it. We had two decisions go against us on VAR. We did enough to win that game. So I agree with your points.

But I am still disappointed that we couldn't find that extra gear. I'm also disappointed that Walcott and Iwobi were so wide. I wanted them further forward and more central. I suspect that Spurs forced them back rather than us playing them there by design. They couldn't just abandon Aurier and Davies.

There's a lot to be disappointed about. But I'm still in a bit a of shock over Gomes. I'm also very upset over yet another three points going begging. And I'm wondering why this season has turned into a nightmare that never ends.

I suppose I should do a Koeman, but how can you when it's Everton?

Steve (337) - Imagine all that upset you feel. And then add in on top of that the sincere and ever-growing belief that Marco Silva is destined to fail as our manager, and yet here he still is. That's how I feel.

Son – red card all day long, making zero attempt to play the ball is reckless. I've mentioned Schniederlin twice this season, Bournemouth (he missed his target) and Man City, he felled De Bruyne in the same way, should have been red too. The game has long allowed this cynical vile tackle to persist in the game. Referees should have more courage, players' behaviour would change.

The selection seemed good, sadly the two wide forwards didn't play high, often to looked more 4-5-1. We pressed often but never really managed to get them to cough it up.

Both teams were poor, although a glimpse or two of some well played moves from ourselves. Still very little to look at big picture style, and go, yeah I can see where we are going.

What is scary is the lack of attacking patterns we have, unrehearsed and lack of practiced moves. We just appear to rely on off-the-cuff moves, individuals pulling rabbits from hats etc.

Let's pull no punches it's a mess. Three midfielders layed up injured, time for 4-2-4!!

You're not too far from me then. I live in Fairfax just outside DC (District of Champions)! Took a wrong turn driving down to London and ended up here 20 years ago!

My son just got a job in New York so I expect to be making regular trips next year. Maybe catch a couple of Everton games if you are in town.

I've been following Rugby for years and still don't understand many of the calls, so don't worry.

Sorry, I am too upset with another leg break.

Yes agree Walcott and Iwobi were way too wide. When spurs had the ball we retreated as a team to flat 4-1-4-1. When we did have the ball they looked to go 4-3-3 but the transition was never quick enough.

I'd of also taken Iwobi off before Walcott as he looked the brighter of the two. Wait and see time as to what and how we play next time.

I'd love to watch a game with you! I pretty much watch 'em all solo so just say the word when you're up this way. Cheers.

As a player, when you conduct your body in a manner which is reckless, without any attempt to win the ball (not even in the same zip code) – it's red.

You correctly describe it as a lunge, off the ground no control over his body and momentum, therefore reckless.

Even if Gomes isn't seriously injured, it's still red, the fact Atkinson cannot, with a clear line of sight, see that is unacceptable.

Heady stuff, this thread!!!

If Gomes gets tripped and isn't injured we would of all accepted the yellow as it's in the law of the game. If the law changes, we will know it's a red. As it stands it was deemed a red because of the result of the challenge.

I feel sorry for Son also but proud of our players for going into the Spurs dressing room and them all coming together. That's what we want to see. And 3 points next week of course

The verdict was not very good, at times it seemed Tottenham were the home team while Everton players were playing scared to loose and that made mistakes. This was not a good result, teams will not get many chances to beat Tottenham but today was a good opportunity as they were struggling but, Everton once again were in a benevolent mood and presented them with the chance to get back on track.

Goodison Park was once considered a fortress, but now it seems like any other ground with the walls collapsed allowing the attackers in.

I may be wrong but weren't the 2 previous managers fired with a better position in the league?

Anyway, goodnight all.

What I don't know is how long it takes to go from “healed” to “ready-to-play-football.”

If he's very lucky, I'd guess we could see Gomes again before the end of February. Unfortunately there's always the chance of complications and every injury is different.

Hopefully the club's professional medical staff will give us some positive news in the next few days.

I just read some medical articles and they say 3 months but it depends on the sport. A golfer was back in the PGA sooner but obviously football is more taxing on the ankles. Wasn't Yakubu out for 9 months when he did his ankle before the cup final?

It depends on the severity of the break.

Allegedly it was a compound fracture and pretty horrific which could mean the end of his career.

I doubt he will be back before Easter if at all based on the feedback of some guys who were just by the incident.

It is a real sickener on top of everything else.

Many of these challenges that bring someone down are entirely subjective, you could argue intent or non-intent equally.

I believe I am within context, even the Son challenge wasn't ugly (a tap on the foot?), what happened a few steps later when Gomes accidentally dug his studs in was though.

There's very rarely black and white with these things.

Ever walk down the street and have someone stop right in front of you? You walk right into them.

Was it a foul on Son? Yes
Was it a booking? Yes
Was it a red booking? Probably
Is Son being punished? Yes, with a 2-game suspension
Was the foul deliberate? Yes
Was it both reckless & dangerous? Yes
Was it designed to injure Gomes? FFS
Was it a horrible freak outcome from a fairly common play? For sure
Does Son feel horrible? 100%
Is Seamus a jerk for caring? No, he's a human who understands empathy

Watching a dozen angles in slow-mo doesn't change anything. The play took maybe 3 seconds. Pretty sure I've kicked someone's foot into their leg and they took a good tumble with a face full of grass. I'm also pretty sure I've seen fouls like that many times over, and the outcome was no worse than what I did.

I'm also sure I never want to see it again. Almost threw up and knowing it was coming was even worse. *Shudder*

I dispute that it wasn't ugly.

If that happened in the amateurs, it would start trouble. If someone went for your mate you'd be straight over. It wasn't a 'professional' foul to stop the attack, wasn't just mistimed, wasn't even reckless.

He did exactly what he intended to do, which was to take Gomes out. What happened afterwards is a freakish outcome, but an outcome of a deliberate act nonetheless.

If you believe this type or style of tackle, regardless of intent (which you cannot divine - only Son knows) is acceptable at all, well pfft! Times have moved we'll beyond it.

Look at the actions, and the moving parts of the ‘tackle' such as it is. It's from behind, he is not playing the ball, he leaves the ground (unable to control his momentum) and he catches Gomes on or above the ankle. There is no ‘tap' involved.

If that tackle had been towards a player, you'd have no hesitation in supporting a red card, there is no difference from behind.

I'm still struggling with the fact Atkinson only felt it was a yellow, he either got a flea in his ear or saw the injury, neither which should have had any bearing on the call. In real time, it was a sending off.

Truly incensed by this!!

I'm a public announcer for college sports, so communicating with fans is, without any exaggeration or misrepresentation, what I do for a living. From my perspective, communication seems to be one of the things that is sorely lacking in the VAR system. If I don't do my job well (speaking from experience; everyone starts somewhere) people get confused and the mood can turn sour. The public announcer in football [British use of the word] doesn't do much, but imagine the confusion if he just said "Everton are making some subs or something" and left it at that. That's basically equivalent to what VAR is doing. (No, I haven't done my job that poorly. I did accidentally leave the letter "t" out of the word "peanuts" on a bitterly cold day one time and may have led some fans to believe that the concessions stand was selling penis.)

Giving the refs microphones to communicate with the fans is the theoretical ideal. I'll explain that shortly, but I think the more pertinent comparisons are with sports where refs don't have mics. There are two sports that I follow and work in professionally, in which the refs don't verbally communicate directly with the fans. In baseball, everything is cut and dry enough that additional communication isn't really necessary. If football could cut down on which calls are reviewed, it might be possible to just leave VAR as it is, but that pretty much just limits it to offside reviews.

In basketball, when the review process is initiated, the ref will come over to me and give a clear explanation of what is being reviewed. I tell the fans what's being reviewed and that gets relayed to the TV audience. The refs all take a look at the monitor and make their decision. Once the decision is made, one of them comes to me to give me an explanation, which I relay to the fans verbally as the referee makes the relevant hand signal(s).

While I'm announcing the call, and briefly afterward, the coaches have the opportunity to speak to the refs about the decision. There's no reason the Premier League cant have the exact same system. It's not perfect, but it's not a disaster either.

The NFL and NHL do a particularly good job of communicating the decisions directly to the fans, even if the calls themselves are questionable. In both of those sports, the head referee has a public address microphone. They make a decision in the moment based on how they see it, then they can go to the replay to check the decision.

Once a final decision has been made, they can communicate the decision directly to the fans. Any time the reasoning for a decision is unclear, the refs are free to elaborate. I.e. (in NFL) "After review, the call on the field is overturned. The ball carrier's knee was down prior to the ball crossing the goal line. The ball will be placed at the one-yard line."

For complex decisions, you need to explain yourself. You can't just put the decision on a big screen and leave it at that. It's lazy and takes away from the game. Giving refs mics isn't the only option. It may not be necessary at all, but it makes enough sense that it should be considered.

While I speak with less authority on the topic of consistency of calls, something can certainly be said for the idea of having a call ruled one way on the field, then reviewed after the fact. There are three possible outcomes to video reviews in the sports I've listed above: 1) There is enough video evidence to overturn the call. 2) There is enough video evidence to confirm that the call was correct. 3) There is not enough video evidence to overturn the call or to confirm it, so the call stands. Simply sending the decision to VAR leads to severe inconsistency and takes way more time than it needs to. You can check a decision that's already been made to see if there is concrete evidence to overturn it faster than you can do a full analysis of a play and make a decision.

There is value to seeing something in real time at full speed. The Michael Keane penalty decision last week is a perfect example. In real time, it's obviously not a penalty. When you slow it down and really look at it, that opens the door for pedantic technicalities to come in to play. If the ref and VAR official had worked together to make the call, no penalty would have been awarded. In the NFL, the ref is able to communicate and watch the play back with the replay crew and explain their reasoning. As an example of what that should look like, watch the video linked below from ~25:00 until ~27:00. (You can watch the rest of the video, too, if you like. Best day of my life. Fell off the roof of a bus stop in downtown Philadelphia and sprained my ankle after that game. It was a wild one, but I digress...) There's no reason the system in the video can't be implemented in the Premier League. There is no reason that the decision should be made unilaterally by one individual who didn't watch it up close in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpv3jqmYRjk

Lastly, I'd like to point out that reviewing whether something was a foul is usually a bad idea. The NFL has tried that experiment with pass interference this year and it's gone horribly. Reviews of violent conduct penalties haven't been quite as bad, but there's still significant inconsistency. If you can't establish clear evidence to overturn a call, you shouldn't be reviewing it in the first place. Non-falsifiable claims need to be accepted as subjective analyses and valued as such.

TL;DR: communication is the issue that's most obvious to me, but I'm predisposed to notice that based on my professional experience. Consistency would improve if the ref could communicate directly with the VAR official while the VAR official is watching the play. Consistency and speed of review would also improve if a clear call was made on the field and that call was subjected to scrutiny, instead of the referee simply deferring to VAR.

I'd also like to note for any NFL fans that I am aware of the catch rule fiasco and, as noted, the pass interference fiasco. I cite the NFL as my primary example because consistency of officiating, while still imperfect, is clearly better than it was 20 years ago, before the current replay system went into effect.

Son has gone after Gomes in retribution for what he perceived to be an elbow to the face. Does he intend to give him a career threatening injury? Probably not. But is he actually making a serious play for the ball? Exceedingly dubious that call.

It's not the actual kick that causes the injury, but it is the cause of the fall. It was irresponsible and reckless. Had Gomes ridden out the challenge, it would have been a yellow, but he didn't. The referees' organisation have confirmed that the severity of the injury came into the decision process.

VAR? Sweet bleeding eyeballs. What a shit-show.

Son, if it's not a penalty, he has dived, right?

Richarlison, clearly taken out. Can't use calling wolf as an excuse for not giving, VAR refs get to review the actual incident. It's a foul, it's in the area. Penalty. They can't say "Oh, well he has been going down too easily before so we won't give him this one, serves him right."

Sanchez on Richarlison late on. It has to be a foul right? But if they give a foul they have to issue a red because of the circumstances.

So, now we have refs on the pitch and in a control room bottling it.

I would imagine that most posters have played the game competitively at some level and will know that Song had no real chance of winning that ball. He knew it too. He clearly tries to bring Gomes down.

Everyday we see people speed up when Traffic lights turn amber and by the time they go trough the lights are red. 99% get away with it, a few are not so fortunate and their actions have catastrophic consequences.

Son ran a red light. People can argue that he was unfortunate and didnt mean to cause the break, but be of no doubt. Thats exactly what he did.

No reckless challenge, no terrible injury.

“FOOTBALL = A SPORT WITHOUT SPORTSMANSHIP + A GAME FULL OF BRINKSMANSHIP” a sport were cheating has become so accepted that it's now part of the fabric.

I found it difficult to try to explain to ber that Silva, had, in my opinion, set the team up to try and nick a draw. He was basically afraid of Tottenham and he was too cautious in his approach

I expected to see a performance on a par with the West Ham game, especially after seeing Brighton tear Spurs apart the other week

We are going nowhere with Silva, except possibly down to the championship. We're basically a third of the way through the season and we're one place above the drop zone. Would any other team be happy with this situation? Of course not, but Silva, who should have been dumped after the Burnley game is still clinging on to the job.
As you said Bill, our previous two managers were dismissed with the team in much better positions than we now find ourselves in.

Why doesn't Moshiri wake up to the reality of our situation? We are seriously in danger of relegation under Silva's inept leadership and it's time he was cut loose to go and ruin someone else's club.

Its unbelievable how much we let the board get away with while all energies are spent punishing everything our managers do.

What is the point of coming on here just to be soppy and pretend no mistakes have been made above the manager? Mug behaviour and I am willing to hear anyones opinion but ignorance gets us nowhere.

Also learned from the Delli Ali handball that all those years ago, Peter Shilton was putting Maradonna under pressure, so 40 years of inquest over.

The defence of Son's intent is frankly pathetic. He was caught in the face by Gomes and tracked him deliberately to get his own back. Did he plan to break his leg? Of course not. Did he plan to do him some harm? Definitely. Anyone who has played football at any level knew straight away what had gone on. Sure he was distraught when he saw the consequences of his desire for retribution. So he should be.

VAR has absolutely failed in its application in the Premier League. For penalties, there has to be "a 'clear and obvious error' in the original decision. For goals, it can adjudge on a close offside decision, but shirt-pulling and other infringements can considered. VAR referees have shown they are extremely reluctant to reverse ANY decision of the on-field referee (unless of course Everton are playing). Equally, because the on-field referees have been told to avoid using the sideline cameras as it slows the game down, no-one is properly examining contentious decisions at all. Proof of the failure is the length of time it takes to review decisions, the number of times it is checked and the almost zero likelihood a decision will be changed. It might as well only be used for offside decisions and leave the final decision to the on-field referee. Rugby has it right overall - the TMO can raise issues missed by the referee, give advice of potential errors in calls but ultimately the refereeing team on the pitch make the final call.

Of course Everton have been on the wrong end of VAR decisions (the Keane 'penalty'), as we were with the other rule enforcements (the Niasse 'dive'). It is unfortunate for us that we are seen as a big enough club where we can used as an "example", but not big enough that a controversial decision will alter the course of the league or a cup. Those decisions would never be given against the Sky 6 as a result, but we are fair game.

Silva had his tactics just about right yesterday. He expected Spurs to counter-attack at pace as they did last season at Goodison - the result was 2-6 in case anyone has forgotten. His intent was manage the game and progressively take the the match to Spurs. And it would have worked if we had been given the decisions on two clear penalties. So let's blame him when he deserves it as I have done this season, but to leap on here to rant after what happened yesterday makes little sense based on what happened in the match.

Nothing through the middle except Richies shot in the first half maybe.

It all went left and right to the wings, the deliveries were awful, case in point seconds left and Sidibe decides to cut back and not cross, shocking!.

First half the ball to Spurs left wing was on all the time Walcott was no match for their height and Sidibe was out of position.

Tok many errors and Gomes had just started to play when Son sought retribution for the elbow, other than that he was quiet all game. Make no mistake Saints game is make or break for both teams ir we lose and he's still here (along with Ferguson) then fuck it.

It now appears that he is taking on a new role.

No longer able to convince the jury with his case for the defence of Mr Silva he now seems to have given up his brief to get his client Silva a reprieve, instead, he now appears for the prosecution.

Having gathered all the evidence available, from TV, from witnesses to the crime he has now made up his mind and claims that he can bring a successful prosecution against the defendant, one Mr Son.

The Judge, in this case, the Right Twat Martin Atkinson will undoubtedly call for VAR as a witness and will deliver the maximum penalty that the prosecutor Ferns hopes to deliver to enhance his reputation as the 'hottest lawyer in town'

I rest my case.

We have been awful this season, absolutely no two ways about it, we have now 2 must win games at fellow strugglers Southampton and Norwich. We then have a nightmare run in December that could send us into the a very serious, and very real relegation battle.

Do we keep hoping Silva 'turns it around'? Do we risk getting absolutely wholloped by our title challenging neighbours? Then again against Chelsea and Leicester - two clubs showing how progressive managers and exciting attacking young teams can perform - then again against City on Jan 1st? The out of form Utd and Arsenal will probably be looking at the December fixtures and see the Everton game as very 'winnable' chances to turn their fortunes.

Yesterday's game was woeful - Iwobi out wide simply hasn't worked since he arrived, he looks decent (not great, but decent) in the middle, but out wide he is ineffective - so the decision to play him there was baffling. Walcott is Walcott, always is, always will be. Does some things quite well, makes good runs and has good movement - but he is a 6/10 player. A forward who will likely not get near the penalty area, and when he does will rarely threaten the goal. And Richarlison as a centre forward, at least in this set up, is an isolated figure. He is dangerous with the ball at his feet and the ability to cut inside and run forwards, not when he has his back to goal and is trying a win the ball from scraps.

A seriously woeful selection for a front 3, and the outcome was absolutely as expected. Time for change, both in the management, and in the players.

Time to promote Gordon and play him wide right. Just maybe he could inject some positivity and exhuberance this team desperately needs. Other clubs have promoted 18/19 year olds to great benefit over the last couple of seasons, time we do it ourselves.

Time to play Kean as centre forward, give him 2 games against Norwich and Southampton, he should get space and chances against porous defences to break his duck and gain confidence, then enter December ready to shock the big teams. Rich-Kean-Gordon - this needs to be our attack.

Midfield is our biggest weakness, especially now Gomes joins G'Bamin on the sidelines for the long term. Delph Davies and yes, bring up another youngster - Adeniran. 2 young players with energy, with Delph being the mentor. No 'playing it safe' and playing Schneiderlin. That is asking for relegation.

Silva will never do this, so we need a change of manager now, and tell them - you won'y get money in January, use the youth.

He's spent a FORTUNE, and we are staring relegation in the face. The fact that some cling to “there'll be 3 worse than us” is truly embarrassing.

The fact he appears to be still here this morning suggests absolute and complete ineptitude. Granted, he's playing ‘lip service' to team changes, but it's the same old turgid crap he's serving up.

He needs to go NOW. Use Unsy as a caretaker for Southampton and Norwich, hopefully he can pick up a few points to take the immediate pressure off any successor. If not, we are NO worse off than we will be under Silva.

We are now in ‘nothing more to lose' it's time to roll the dice because without a bet, we are going down under this ‘nice man'.

Richarlson should have realised after his first three dives he was going to get nothing from Atkinson and waited for the obvious one for the penalty. He obviously hasn't been told to stop doing this from the manager.

For the handball, by the current laws it was a penalty, no matter how aggrieved we would have been if it was happening to us. Those handball decisions have been given all season. It seemed to me that the more the VAR delayed making the call (as they obviously didn't want to give it to us) then the more they could hide behind the reasonable doubt defence. It was handball and his assertion that he was raising his arm after an elbow is bollocks as in real time nobody reacts that fast.

Silva should have gone weeks ago, he's useless.

Replays show he was heading Tosun as he headed the ball! Don't know whether to be pleased that he was there to score it if Tosun failed or upset that he could have caused Tosun to fluff his header! We scored so it was alright in the end.

Did Pickford make one save?
Did the game deny us 2 clear penalties?
Did we lose a major player in terrible circumstances?
Did we concede to a goal we created?

Have a day off with your manager shit. Any reason to have a go. Last week said it all when he picked the side you wanted then you all still moaned.

The majority of the moaning is pre concieved shite you decided ages ago about Silva and Brands so now you can't be wrong.
Keep fueling your points with anything you can but the fact the squad is worse than less season will never escape your hidden thoughts.

Andy Gray is the first pundit to have the balls to question our boards mentality while you manager moaners ignore it because you decided Brands was a genius before he signed anyone.

People clueless about tactics talking nothing but tactics.

Just to set the record straight what I am really concerned about is the position the club is now in and my genuine fear is that unless a change is now made at manager and arguably director of football level, then championship football next season may well result.

My reference to another two points lost was simply to highlight that as each game goes by the pressure is becoming more and more intense particularly in view of the difficult fixtures coming up imminently.

I was actually at the match yesterday and was not sitting behind my little screen at home. The first match I was taken to was in 1963 and fortunately I have only ever watched top flight league football at Goodison since then. I want that to continue rather than see a return to the struggles of the early 1950's.

My opinion for what it's worth is that Silva has been a dreadful appointment as manager and I have grave doubts about the player recruitment policy over the last 17 months.

And this is not a defence of Marco Silva. I questioned why we hired him and have commented on his poor performance this season. But overall his game plan and team set up yesterday was broadly right.

Silva wasn't my choice, Koeman I hated before we got him but never in a million years do I see it fit to ignore how the board and Walsh let him down.

So many closed minds and hasty comments dictate our fanbase and most of it is empty.

All the ones that praised Moshiri and Brands before any success or achievment sticking to their guns in delusion. It stinks.

Anyone who went to the shareholders meeting before the season must have heard how many times they mentioned Calvert Lewin, Lookman Davies, the plans were to develop them.

That is the plan and whoever comes next has the same task. They wanted Tosuns wage out and he is our best finisher. They took a quick profit on our leading scorer so you lot could wait for Calvert Lewin and slag the manager.

We went to Hillsborough needing a solitary point to be safe. We lost 0-6 !

Does anybody in Everton or Brazilian management or coaching ever speak to this guy about it?

I find it embarrassing and have always detested others doing it (including Ronaldo and Suarez mainly) as it is an awful form of cheating that the FA seem to have only punished one man for (Niasse) - nobody since...

I feel almost certain that Richie will be the next one the FA charge and ban - and rightly so.

Silva, or whoever, take him aside and tell him to fucking grow up and STOP the play acting and diving NOW

I may be doing the tv company a disservice here, but from what I have seen of the re runs during the actual game and in match if the day after there is no going back over the incident between the two players just before. If you can watch it I reckon you would be hard pressed not to agree. He's not happy, goes to trip Gomes I n retaliation and it all gets out of hand. That's why he deserves to be suspended. A pull back on the shirt is a booking, time wasting is a booking. This was a cynical professional foul. He may very well be a lovely lad. But he made a very bad call here.

And it's not like he can't lashed out when frustrated before. In one of the last games of the previous season he was sent off for something stupid too.

Let me say I wanted Silva and desperately hoped he would be a success, but we had a very poor run of form last season and to be fair he did turn things round. Now again this season we are going through another poor run of form, and its not as if we have had a tough fixture list so far. So this seems to be recurring problem for Silva, and I think next weeks game at Southampton will be massive for him and us. Obviously Southampton lost their last home game 9-0 so you know they will be trying 150% to try and win back the trust of their supporters, whereas our away form is terrible. So I think with an International break after the Southampton game coming up if we fail to get a result at Southampton, I could easily see the board of using the break to bring in a new manager.

I think that Marco Silva can have few complaints if he does get sacked, the owner has backed him with money to spend, so he cant say he wasnt given the funds to buy the players he wanted. As a manager results will determine your future and after a fairly easy run of fixtures we are 17th, I cant remember to many Everton managers who occupied this position for a few weeks keeping their job.

A good old 'un that 'be careful what you wish for !'

Suggestions as to how VAR may be 'tweaked' to me seem only to exacerbate the breaks that take away so much of what is enjoyable and exciting in the game.

Easy fix for a struggling ambitious club isn't it. A terrible tactician that does everything wrong for a hugely successful manager is a no brainer isn't it.

Everyone on here already agrees don't we? Surely every poster that has been critical has been clamouring for Mourinho to be our new manager.

Everyone will post hugely positive scripts and nothing will go wrong because we have a load of class doing everything right under a genius.

If he can't take advice and instructions from Brands he is very cheeky isn't he.

Somehow, I don't see him fitting into our set-up !

I don't know if your comments were aimed at me in saying my long filled wish for defeat at Southampton. In the 65 years I have watched Everton I have never ever wanted them to get beat. I said if they don't get a result next week I could see the board sacking Silva as this game is followed by an International break. I agree with everything Julian in post 396 says, Silva comes across as a really nice and respectful guy, who by all reports works very hard on the training ground. I think because he comes across as a really decent guy maybe thats why the fans havent turned against him vocally.

But managers live and die by results.

Is Mina ok? I thought he was favouring his knee yesterday. Hope that's not another one for the sick bay.

Paul - of course also it was immediate, instinctive, no messing about before crossing. Makes a massive difference.

I was at a loss to understand why Sidibe didn't cross in that final minute. It was like he suddenly put a white shirt on.

I can fully understand everyone's desire who want Silva out. It's their view which I fully respect. I just feel, however, that in no way can Silva be apportioned any blame for us not winning yesterday. VAR decisions going against us, misplaced passes resulting in the spurs goal, a very serious injury to one of our players, everything seemed to be against us yesterday, and as I said, I thought we did well to get a point out of the game in the end.

Regarding the Gomes injury, I played amateur football for many years and had team mates suffer serious injuries, myself included, which believe me, knocks everyone, on both sides, totally sick. The last thing you want to do is carry on. Okay, amateur players can probably walk off and not face any serious consequences, but professional players cannot do that, and have to soldier on. So, as I say, I thought we did very well to get a point yesterday.

Anyway, Chris, once again, I'm sorry for my outburst towards you and hope to have many more conversations with you in the future.

It is the Daily Mail that are reporting this news.

We near enough balanced the books, and never got the players that we needed in key positions to really push on, and the next couple of windows should tell us a lot more about Everton's strategy moving forward.

Silva has made a lot of mistakes this season, but I thought we were doing okay yesterday before Iwobi's mistake. Not great going forward, but a defensive shape I hadn't seen before from us this season, and hopefully now the manager can start picking people on merit?

Having to endure Schneiderlin ambling, and Michael Keane, looking like he's just come out of the dentist having had six fillings, whilst Davies and Holgate, couldn't get near the starting eleven, has been one of the biggest things Silva has got wrong, and although goals win you games, clean sheets are also very important, and yesterday was the first time Everton have looked likely to keep a clean sheet in ages, so I'm being positive on that front at least, even though Spurs scored!!

Once the bones have been re-set they can heal in a surprisingly short space of time. I would assume that his recovery will be monitored very closely to ensure that healing process is going smoothly. Hopefully the days of these kinds of injuries being career-ending are a thing of the past.

If it takes six weeks to for such an injury to heal (which is what is stated in various medical journals and case studies) then three months sounds about right in terms of getting back on a football field. If that's true then it's great news considering the circumstances.

Michael and Lyndon. May I suggest you look at Pat Finnigan's EXCELLENT post @ 358 and consider using it as the opening post on its standalone thread?

Otherwise, such a fine post may drown and be lost in the (understandable) noise and reaction to yesterday's game in this match day thread.

In reply to Pat, I 100% agree with you that clear communication between all invested parties - the on pitch and off pitch refs, the players, the managers, the fans, be they match attendees or sofa sitters - is sorely lacking in the VAR system. It is something that can be easily addressed.

I don't follow any North American sports so cannot compare your experience in those sports to what the English PL is experiencing with VAR.

You clearly lay out how everyone is 'kept in the loop' in your national sports as to just what is being reviewed and why the match is being delayed so nobody gets 'antsy'.

In two other national British sports - rugby and cricket - we have two outstanding examples similar to those you describe.

In cricket, there is a review system that team captains can use a couple of times per innings. Depending on what is being appealed, there is a linear process evaluating different aspects as to why or if the decision should be upheld or overturned. If any one of the linear steps fails, the review is immediately halted and rejected. It is heavily dependent on technology which has been continually tweaked to improve accuracy.

During the review process, the match-going fan can follow the thought process on big screens; the TV fan can do likewise and listen to the off field umpire's thought process in how he reaches his decision.

Very, very rarely does controversy result from cricket's review system. It is open and transparent. It is not long and protracted. There is no wriggle room for uhming and ahhing. It is not open to coming down to the off-field umpire's personal interpretation.

In rugby - the more appropriate parallel to football - they have an OUTSTANDING review system. More, the match referee is wired up all game and you can hear his running commentary as you watch the action. (search YouTube and Wales' Nigel Owen for outstanding - and comic! - examples of this).

This aspect of rugby's review system, I suggest, could not work in football for two reasons:

1) rugby players treat the match referee with TOTAL respect and courtesy, often addressing him as 'sir'. Beligerence, petulance, remonstrating with a rugby referee simply does not happen. The most you might hear is a team captain questioning him for clarification on a call.

2) rugby players swear, but nowhere to the extent that footballers do. Broadcasters simply could not run the risk of having a football match referee wired up for all to hear all game as it would be one long bleep and repeated apologies to the TV audience for the 'industrial language you may have heard' from disgruntled players.

Listening to a rugby referee's wired up commentary is fascinating. He helps the game flow, constantly telling players in open play that they are close to infringing, so they retreat from their potential foul play before committing it. When a foul is blown, he patiently explains to both the team captain and offending player just what the infringement is for.

When tight calls get referred, like cricket, transparency is total. The same video replays the off pitch referee is evaluating are shown on the stadium's big screens; the telly spectator can hear the dialogue between the on and off pitch refs.

Again, very, very rarely is there controversy as a result. The cricket and rugby review systems ADD to the drama of the match day experience. Football's VAR is currently detracting from it.

VAR in football is still relatively young. I personally thought it had a decent baptism at last year's world cup in Russia. A bit messier this year at the women's world cup in France as it also took into account a number of basic rule changes simultaneously.

I also thought it had a decent enough start to this PL season on its introduction. I actually considered it a positive that initially in-game VAR decisions were quietly being transmitted to the on pitch ref without any need for lengthy delays.

I say that because my experience of VAR in Brazil would be hugely incendiary to many on TW. No exaggeration, there have been reviews lasting as long as TWELVE MINUTES and at the end of all that, the referee still goes on a hunch. It made a mockery of what VAR was intended to achieve.

There was overkill in Brazil and the match ref was consulting the pitchside monitor too frequently. In England, that has swung too much the other way in that not one single referee has gone pitchside to look at the monitor. This can only be a directive from on high.

It simply doesn't make sense.

I agree with your points Pat that football needs to reinforce more vigorously the (supposedly) existing guidelines:

1) There is enough video evidence to overturn the call.
2) There is enough video evidence to confirm that the call was correct.
3) There is not enough video evidence to overturn the call or to confirm it, so the call stands.

If 1 and 2 are not immediately 'clear and obvious' then that IMMEDIATELY places the review in category 3. The review 'fails'. Move on.

Again, as you insightfully suggest, there is a world of difference in watching a play in real time as against frame by frame slow-mo replay.

Take Keane's penalty call v Brighton. In Formula 1, if there is a coming together of two cars but neither driver had any malicious intent or deliberately swerved off a natural line, it is dismissed as a 'racing incident' and neither driver incurs any penalty. What happened at Brighton can be similarly described as a 'football incident'. Keane and Everton should never have been punished for that.

So I agree with you Pat. VAR in the English PL is being misused. It should simply be applied to QUICKLY confirm or overrule the on pitch ref if there are 'clear and obvious reasons' to do so. Anything not 'clear and obvious' falls into your category 3 and so the review fails.

In recent weeks VAR referees appear to be over reaching their remit by analysing category 3 calls and making OFF FIELD judgement calls which isn't theirs to make.

ON FIELD refs are compounding this fundamental flaw in how the system is being wrongly applied by passively accepting the OFF FIELD refs call without consulting the pitchside monitor.

It's chaotic and needs to be urgently addressed.

Finally, going back to your original point Pat on communication and how review systems are shared with the public in cricket and rugby examples and your own north American sports.

Why are football supporters treated differently from the followers of other sports? Why aren't VAR reviews shown on stadium big screens? Why CAN'T we hear the live dialogue between the match official and the remote VAR ref?

Do the authorities think football supporters are not mature or intelligent enough to be allowed to follow the thought process and decision making?

Greater transparency would go a long way in improving standards and ensuring a fair and proper process acceptable to all.

Right now, we are all mushrooms having shit shovelled over us.

Thanks very much for your reply-

Please don't be concerned any further- I can fully understand your exasperation with the events of yesterday.

I honestly think that the vast majority of Evertonians are becoming really very frustrated at the current situation. We all have our own potential solutions.

We all want the club to be successful and to regain it's position as the pre- eminent team in the city - we have been in the shadows far too long- lets hope things move quickly in that direction

"No reckless challenge, no terrible injury."

Darren, you're living in a perfect world where the sun always shines and the sky is always blue.

These lads are pumped with adrenalin and the line between reckless and acceptable is wafer thin at the moment the challenge is made, there's no time do a risk assessment.

Overall injuries like the one Gomez suffered are extremely rare and if you take the physicality out of the sport you've got women's netball played with feet.

Mind you, listening to Silva drone on for about five minutes last night, I don't know he can motivate the team, he is so fucking boring. His voice is monotonous and I couldn't understand what he was saying.

That's more like it Rob lad!

You can't just sod off from TW.

I need SOMEONE on TW to have clandestine chats about clikky with now and again!

Coming out of the ground yesterday we walked towards stanley park and I got into conversation with 2 robotic blues.

First words from their mouths not about Gomes but "he has to go if we lose next week",, I bet they say that every week.

After hearing no back up to their claims I put my gripe across to which they both agreed with and added further fuel to my points by suggesting "some of these players are not good enough".
I was baffled again.

I include myself when I say all football fans are fickle but this has got to the numb brain stakes.
First they gave the generic shout then shot their own points down.

Pep has made mistakes this season. Pickford has now been making them for 3, Moshiri has the same record.

The funniest and most ironic shout is that Einstein shite people abuse for their own fuel against the manager but the beauty of it is, this is our fans to a tee. It used to be the other lot.

Expecting improvement after selling our best players and somehow seeing success with a worse 11.

And who questions what the board have done? Very few. Shit rolls downhill as they say and up the ladder they are getting away with kidding you.

Football has never been easier to fathom, don't buy 3 ok players buy 1 great player, and we have a massive fanbase willing to do this all over again with another manager.

The honeymoon will be ok until the realisation kicks in. Anyone who thinkz Silva came here to work with clown goalkeepers, struggling strikers and weak wingers must be mad.

Silva tried telling everyone before the Palace game this was a tough season ahead and the energy was all spent on praising Brands which automatically made Silva the scapegoat.

Now slowly as per usual, people are starting to ask why Brands left us short.

If its all Silva and the board have the ambition they claim to have, they won't mess, he is gone and Jose is persuaded.

I would bet my life we are just a business though and pipe dreams are for fans with ambition.

I have to add Iwobi was not needed, we accomodate him where we can because of his fee and i don't believe for a second he was on Silvas radar..

I had a feeling you'd had a few bevies Rob, and having met you and knowing the dedication you show in following “Everton-Everywhere” I could totally understand why you lost it last night mate. The fact that you've come back on to apologise only shows the measure of the man that you are. Welcome back mate!!

I have nothing against others either mate I understand we all see it different but at the same time I have no time for ignorance.

I will always be man enough to hold my hand up if I am wrong and I speak for out fans against anything that holds us back and stops our enjoyment.

I will honestly speak to any Evertonian about Everton.

I think Rob has apologised well today aswell. Humble and honestly.

I'll explain it another way.

Brian, my point to Darren is that if you remember Dirk Kuyt flying Kung Fu tackle on Phil Neville that was without any doubt whatsoever "Reckless" and cannot be excused even considering adrenalin and then compare this to Song's challenge last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p52WBsEYIYk

It's subjective I know, but I don't think Song's challenge was a reckless career ending challenge, it was done in one of those adrenalin moments where the line is so fine between getting right and what happened.

Once again it's subjective, but the Song challenge in my opinion is part of the physicality of the sport and wasn't truly reckless.

Whereas what Kuyt did, well???

I like Silva as a bloke. He's a good ambassador for our club and much better than his predecessor. However, as others have said, we need to be winning football matches and I questioned his appointment at the time. I didn't see anything on his CV which made me think he would be a good fit at Goodison. He's spent a fortune and in truth, it is difficult to see where the money has gone. When you look at what the RS have spent on the likes of Robertson, Mane and Sallah then we really have wasted a golden opportunity to bridge the gap to the so-called top 6. Leicester, for example, look a far better team than we do: they have a natural goalscorer for starters. We've never replaced Lukaku who I didn't rate as highly as some but he would at least be a threat against most of the teams in the division.

We can't keep changing managers but I really do not think that Silva is the right man for the job. I'd love him to turn it around but I just don't see it happening. Our away form is an albatross around our neck which we have had for many seasons. We will never achieve anything unless we can make Goodison a fortress and start regularly picking up points on our travels.

At the moment, there is only BMD which gives me any hope for the future of our beloved club. I can't see anyone but the RS winning the league this year. They could very well be at the start of a period of dominance again. We are so far behind them as a football force. I'd at least like a manager who could get us a win against them as a starting point.

Sad times.

Good managers make the best with what they have, and there are many clubs with far inferior squads performing far more competently - that is not a result of transfer window, but training and preparation, about motivation, and about tactical nous. We lack in all aspects.

Injuries to GBamin, then Bernard and now Gomes are unfortunate, but do not excuse our position.

Ever since we got money, people have kept shouting 'we need x, y, or z' to improve - this bloody buy, buy buy mentality, which before we were in the money, we abhored.

The 'Everton' way, we would preach, was to make the best with what we had, to give 110%, make average players play above their capabilities...

Now we excuse every loss with a 'but we didn't sign a world class striker...but we didn't sign x, y or z'.

Everton have scored 11 goals in 11 games which says little about Silva's offensive selections given that Kean is usually a non-starter.

This is totally unacceptable considering the strikers brought in to do a job (Tosun, Calvert-Lewin, Walcott, Richarlison and dare I say Niasse?) They all appear to be very limited and tells you why Everton are struggling.

Everton have only 4 wins against Premier League opposition (2 of those against bottom of the table Watford who are winless) What a miserable stat for Silva to ponder. That is scary!!!

I agree with your comment, up to a point. Where I tend to disagree is that I feel that the players we have lost and not replaced seem more important to me than some of the ones we have bought. We have a Zouma sized hole in the defence, a Gueye sized hole in central midfield and a Lukaku sized hole in attack. That's basically the spine of the team.

This has been further aggravated by the injuries to Gomes, even before this awful injury, Delph, Gbamin, and Bernard. All midfielders, which has led to the selection of Schneiderlin, who while not doing very much wrong, doesn't really contribute very much either.

That's a fairly adult portion!

How long do TV pundits spend arguing about these issues?

In other sports it is a clear question- would the ball have hit the stumps, was the players foot in touch, was the ball grounded etc

As I have said before, we are refereeing games as in the 19th century. We need more than one referee on the pitch, as in the NRL and NFL. Also if we import the best players, why can't we import the best referees in the world? I also agree they need somehow to communicate their decisions to the spectators.

I've been wondering what way our recruitment is going to go, especially because I thought we signed some good players when Brands first arrived at the club, and with Silva only having a 3-year contract (loads will be saying "Thank fuck!") this summer's recruitment didn't make nowhere near as much sense to me, because we seemed to concentrate as much on youth as experience and definitely left the manager short in key areas.

Too early to really speculate either way, hopefully a long-term plan, but definitely a feeling that you could be right about no real pipe-dreams for us long-suffering supporters, so let's just hope we get Bramley-Moore Dock done.

Looking at our December fixtures and the long-term injuries we have now, I am for the first time thinking we are going to fight relegation this season.

They have left us standing, they have a good manager, stadium with 21st century facilities and squad. Everton have non of that. Just ignoring all of that is burying head in the sand.

Two weeks ago the score was Southampton 0 Leicester 9. Even if Southampton went down to 9 men can you see Everton replicating that scoreline on Sarturday? Nope neither can I.

If Silva is brought in on the back of a certain vision, to play football a certain way, but then the players you give him do not fit that way, then you have to give him some slack.

For me, the biggest difference from last season is pace. Pace at the back and pace in the middle. Zouma allowed us to play a higher line and was able to recover quicker than Keane or Mina. Keane and Mina playing a high line is suicidal. And that's where Silva has to take blame, because he kept playing them and he kept playing that way. I think Holgate showed enough in the last few games to warrant inclusion in the starting line up. He might not have set the world alight, but he's been better than Keane. And this was no surprise to his number one fan, Mr Hinds. He needs to stay in the side, regardless of how high the line we play is. He is not lightning fast, but he's our fastest defender.

Then there is the pace of Gueye. I think Gbamin is meant to be quick. He looks reasonably so on YouTube, I didn't see him get into full stride in his brief appearances for us, but he looked alright. Without Gueye I think we suffer so much from being slow, and it doesn't matter that we have better passers without him, because they take too long to get things moving due to their lack of pace of foot and of mind. Gueye was clearly a bigger part of our attack than idiots like myself thought. Definitely wrong on that front, that's for sure.

But as someone said the other day, Silva wanted Gomes. I don't believe he was forced to have Delph. And Davies might not be the quickest, but he's quicker across the ground than Gomes or Delph, and certainly than Scheiderlin. So if Silva wanted to, he could have gone with Davies' pace all season long.

Ok back to the torches and pitchforks, lads!

Happy Monday indeed.

I think it's also possible that one of the fall-outs from Gueye leaving has been the poor performances of Sigurdsson. The whole balance of the midfield has changed now.

I believe in time Brands will turn it around and it looks like his game plan was to bring in mainly resellable assets. Which is what he's done.

Steve Walsh - who signed the players
Craig Shakespeare - who said it was all down to him coaching them
Claudio Ranieri - the man who was actually the manager

We signed two out of the three. Neither showed that they could replicate that at Everton. Ranieri had a nightmare at Fulham, struggled at Nantes, did quite well for Roma, and is currently winless in his new job at Sampdoria.

You say they have left us standing. Nobody was saying that before the season started. You said it on the basis of 10 games into this season, i.e. on the basis of their current good form versus our current bad form. If we had started the season on good form, and Leicester on bad form, you probably wouldn't be saying what you did, because you'd likely be a happy bunny. To make the kind of bold statements that you are making is ridiculous, and it's because you're not a happy bunny at the moment. None of us are.

By the way, to get some perspective on Leicester's title, their tally of 81 points is the same as the AVERAGE number of points achieved by Man Utd in the 15 seasons prior. That underlines the difference between a top side as Utd then were, and a side like Leicester. They got lucky by virtue of the top teams being under par that season. Yes, they made great use of the opportunity, but it was lucky.

Results also matter to those running the business, only their definition of results is ROI. While certainly possible, successful businesses don't keep turning over management and expecting their ROI to improve. Sacking heads of departments or managers or what have you, typically precede those businesses faltering, and ultimately failing.

I know no one wants to hear this or likely even consider it, but it's a fact regardless. Did anyone know that only ~25% of the global Fortune 500 today remains from the same list 25 years ago? Huge, storied businesses with lengthy histories fail and die every year.

I certainly can't prove this, but if Moshiri doesn't have ROI & profitability as his #1 goal, I'd be shocked. No matter how much it's desired, football including Everton is never going back to 30-40 years ago. The global football world simply doesn't allow it.

Just wanted to share another aspect and perspective that I'm not sure some have taken into account.

We sold Gueye (which I was exasperated about, although many on here thought he was a headless chicken not suited to Silva's 'system'). But have still had Delph for most of the season, Gomes, Sigurdsson, Davies – Sheff Utd are 6th with Everton youth reject John Lunsdtrom, Man Utd youth reject Oliver Norwood, and Lower League journeyman John Fleck. Would anybody ever swap their midfielders for ours? If we had that midfield, would Silva all of a sudden see our team win games and move up the league?

Up front, we have a relatively inform centre forward in Calvert-Lewin, we have a highly rated striker in Kean – far better than the days of Andy Johnson, Beckford, Bent, and what other lower league misfits we had – but we seem to be worse off. Palace can't buy a goal but are performing better than us.

The transfer window will not resolve anything – we need a manager who knows how to get the best of what he has, only then should we allow someone to spend money. We need a manager who will come in and manage, no excuses.

Again, blaming the not signing of a, b, or c is just an excuse in my book. A good manager gets a team playing well no matter what, then money should allow them to go further.

Never in a million years should this squad be 17th and staring at a relegation battle but we are. That is Silva's fault, no matter who we did or didn't sign.

My point being the foxes wouldn't find themselves in that position as thier squad is full of talent and they have a an experienced manager who knows what he's doing. Everton don't seem to take that route, often employing managers with relegation on thier CV.

It doesn't matter what we both think anyway, but our Club is currently 17th in the table after 11 games, 20 points behind top of the table Liverpool.

Form can be, and usually is, like that, it comes and goes in purple patches followed by struggling when you're midtable. There's not enough evidence to say Leicester aren't simply in a purple patch of good form. We had a purple patch in Koeman's first season, many people thinking we'd turned a corner, but look how that turned out.

Non-Evertonians, including some Leicester supporters I know, tell me that we've got really talented players and a good manager, and that things will come good. Imagine if Leicester had current bad form and we had current good form. Some of their supporters would, similar to you extolling them, be extolling us as a model to follow.

The next 2 matchdays feature:

Everton (11 pts)
@ Southampton
vs Norwich

Southampton (8 pts)
vs Everton
@ Arsenal

Norwich (7 pts)
vs Watford
@ Everton

Let's say, as fans, we believe we can take all 6 pts (cue laughter from the audience), as we should. Two of the matches are 6-point swings. Southampton isn't going to Arsenal and getting a result in all likelihood. We get a small sliver of luck and maybe Watford can hold Norwich to a draw, and by matchday 14, we have 17 pts, both Southampton/Norwich have 8.

That's 9 points clear of “November relegation” and is also assuming that everyone from 5th to 16th all maintain their spots, which I'm fairly certain is mathematically impossible.

What you believe is up to you but it's possible that things look a lot less dire by then. COYB

Now don't get me wrong here, we could get a bargain at 㿅 million one day but we haven't so far. Keane is one big slouch that has struggled to ever get going here.

We tend to be in for defenders that nobody else wants to battle for. 㿅 million, under no pressure, for a centre-half Man Utd spewed a year earlier, and they finished one place above us.

And yes we have the players... It's time for Silva to be brave. We looked quite solid yesterday but too slow to transition. Only Walcott looked sharp for the outball in the first half and he was the one replaced. I still don't get why the first sub was to bring on attacker for another attacker when we had 3 midfielders on the pitch.

Also disappointing that Baines hasn't played a single minute. He should've moved on as he's wasted what could be his last season.

Easier said than done but we should try to follow the Liverpool and Leicester blueprint versus these two. Man City did their usual possession game, and huffed and puffed for 90 mins before being beaten at Norwich and escaping with a late winner versus Southampton. Liverpool and Leicester just let them have it all guns blazing from the get-go and won easily.

This is a very poor reflection of the management of the club at every level and 4 managers and, 𧺬M later, we find ourselves in this position.

A blind man can see that we keep letting top quality players go and then replacing them with average players or kids with "potential".

To me, and I'm no expert, our midfield has been weak for years - no bite and no goals. Up front, most other teams have a centre-forward that can get you 10+ goals a season. We don't.

Add to that we keep ex players who have fallen on hard times (which is very commendable) in positions of influence. Is it any surprise we are a soft touch as a club.

We are in a Premier League that is as ruthless as it is lucrative and all clubs can spend megabucks now but only those who spend it wisely and to a plan and purpose will prosper.

What is our plan and purpose?

Moshiri apparently doesn't know as he staggers from one bad decision to the next.

The board don't know and I believe there are two camps there with different agendas.

The manager obviously doesn't know as he chops and changes the team every game.

It seems that Duncan cuts a lonely figure as Boa Morte and Silva discuss things so I wonder how much harmony is in the coaching staff.

Something is seriously wrong at Everton and its not just Silva nor Koeman although IMO Silva needs to go asap and we need a strong manager who can manage the players and keep the board on their toes.

We need some action now rather than wait till the ship is leaking so badly it will sink.

A new manager, with a fresh coaching staff and, crucially, no director of football is key. Walsh and Brands are just as culpable for our current predicament as Silva is.

I think that the basic problem is that I reckon our team is actually weaker this season, without Zouma and Gueye, than last season. The issue of replacing Lukaku is a longer-standing matter as we all know.

We have come into this season with a decent but unbalanced squad, but fundamentally flawed because of the players we have lost. This has been aggravated by the injuries to Gbamin, who was seen as the Gueye replacement,and the loss of Gomes for 4 league games and Delph for 5, I think.

We should not be in the position we're in for sure, and Silva must take responsibility for things like set-piece weaknesses (not zonal yesterday?), lousy away form, never winning once going a goal down, inflexibility, and not knowing his best starting 11 (I don't think he's picked the same starters on 2 consecutive occasions this season in the league). We should also not be getting beaten by most of teams who have beaten us regularly this season, despite our ‘missing' players.

I've come to the conclusion that any expectation of an improved position this season, and I had one, is sadly misplaced because of the structural weaknesses we have, but most of the rest of the problem belongs to Silva.

Maybe I'm just depressed.

Rodgers bought 2/3 players in the window, sold Maguire for ridiculous money, didn't replace him, and has Leicester playing to their strengths, doesn't put square pegs in round holes.

He is a top manager, and even though I've no time for Danny Murphy, he said at the time, when Silva was being considered, Rodgers was a perfect fit, because he couldn't go any further with Celtic, and Moshiri had the funds.

The danger of this is, of course, the occasional foray into the relegation zone, typical of habitual midtable clubs, the worst-case scenario being actual relegation.

If this is Moshiri's approach, then we might anticipate never winning anything, and might realistically also anticipate never being relegated even with the forays near the relegation zone.

I'd just seen your toy-throwing @203 and was in the process of reluctantly terminating you, but that apology was spot-on. Thanks.

Kieran @448 also agreed. We, and especially Silva, have nothing left to lose. Give ‘em all we got, essentially. Of course getting out of bed seems easier said than done for our lads right now.

Have faith fellas. It really is possible that we're mid-table by matchday 14. I'd rather we focus on that than worrying about being bottom 3.

It's an intention v outcome debate. Son deservedly got the yellow for hunting his target down and not going for the ball.

As sickened as I am for Andre, the FA have messed this up. You can't wave a yellow for the foul then look at the injury caused by it and then add a red. You have to look at the action, not the result.

Son, when truth be told, didn't catch Andre badly enough to injure him in isolation. He did set off the chain of events though. So the ref should have judged the colour of the card on his lunge. Not the severity of Andre's injury.

Fair enough, if he decides that Son had intent, wasn't getting near the ball and it was dangerous, then red card him. But to change the colour of the card following a delay and emotions boiling over, it's officialdom just changing the rules or etiquette and procedures on the spot. They lose all credibility (not that there's much left in that tank) and it goes to show the game is being officiated by players and outcomes.

Plus if VAR told the ref to change the card colour, didn't they take into account the studs getting stuck and the sheer bad luck of Aurier being where he was in front of Andre? Why is VAR seeing things so differently from the ref? Or is VAR now an omnipresent judge, handing out sentences based on what it thinks is the right thing to do or will go down in the media better?

To clarify, I am not defending Son or saying it wasn't a red or was just a yellow. I am disturbed by how badly the FA are getting VAR wrong and twisting and turning each weekend.

Given Andre has expressed issues he had at Barca, I am especially saddened he has suffered this horrible injury.

As for what Mr Halligan had to say, while he was clearly angry and went over board, he does have a point. To be calling for Silva to go when we have been shafted two league games on the spin by officials and certain players have done very silly things (what was Iwobi doing, he takes the ball off TD who has delivered it through midfield to then just thread it back to a Spurs player?!) is difficult to hear.

I haven't read all the above comments, both commentators said it was ridiculous that we didn't get a penalty.

Awful for Gomes, I hope he recovers well.

Surely this January is going to be incredibly important for us. We must use it wisely to sign some reinforcements, as with what squad we have at our disposal currently, I am really starting to worry.

Centre back
Mobile number 8
Centre-forward.

Sam Hoare can probably give us some good options on personnel for those positions????

Instead we paid 10 million more for Keane. This is where incompetence comes in. 2 fellas who have never coached could see it, what was Walsh seeing? and to not know Maguire was on the up and Keane gone from United to Burnley is simply stupid.

This has been a great thread. Apart from all the Gomes anger we seem to be communicating properly as concerned fans.

So far this season, he's in relatively poor form. He was a very good signing. Let's not extrapolate from a situation of poor form to make assertions about how good he is generally.

I think you're right. This conspiracy has been going on for years back to Bracewell injured at Newcastle, through Gbamin at Villa, as well as some you mentioned such as Ovideo at Stevenage, McCarthy versus Albion and Gomez versus Tottenham.

If you take the initials of teams that injure our players: Stevenage, Albion, Tottenham, Aston Villa, Newcastle: Acronym for SATAN

What a quaint little post. The naivety simply dripped from every line.
Let me explain the difference between a reckless challenge and an act of complete shithousery.

"Reckless" - Rash, impetuous. Heedless of consequences of ones actions... Got that ?

"Shithousery" - A deliberate attempt to maim or badly damage an opponent whilst not putting oneself in any danger at all. Usually attempted, by going over the ball or in the form of two-footed challenge. . but always with studs showing? Got that? Seeing the difference ?

Two things were going though Son`s mind when he went for a ball he couldn't win. The first was, what the cheating fuckers today, call "taking one for the team". The second was a desire to extract retribution. He believed (wrongly) that he had been deliberately elbowed. Either way, he gave no thought for the consequences. Despite your "He didnt mean it" protestations. His challenge was, by definition a reckless one.

You may feel the need to put up a link of Kuyt's tackle in order to demonstrate it was "reckless" but most Evertonians will have seen something far more spiteful, malicious and cowardly. Most won't need your link. They will have instant recollection of that stomach-churning act of total shithousery.

When I said without Son's challenge that injury would not have happened. I wasn't (as you seem to believe) giving an opinion. I was stating a matter of fact.

Didn't Walcott do just that, foot up studs showing foot went over ball and straight into Spurs player's ankle. Shithousey tackle (your words) ... sending off then?

What more evidence do you need? We signed the 4th best Portuguese coach maybe the fifth. Bizarrely. No one stops to think isn't it strange how many Portuguese guys get prem jobs? Maybe it's fashion not substance.

But I digress and it's not actually his fault.

We sold Lukaku and tried buy kid replacements.

Will we be in for Werner? No

Will we be in for Mourinho? No

Will we try and loan bale in January? No

Will we buy Zaha, and Zouma in January. The better than average players Silva wanted in the summer? No

Are we building a ground smaller than Newcastle and only a 2k more than Sunderland, with hardly any private boxes? yes.

Are we building a club that will double its share price in 10 years by being sensible, conservative and hovering around 7th to 10th? Yes.

Do the board want to take the risk necessary to make us serious challengers for trophies?absolutely not.

Consolidation. Consolidation consolidation!

Keep them strung along, collect the tv money and the ever-increasing sponsorship money. Build a shiny new stadium and sell for 5k a share. Not bad after you paid 2k.

Trophies don't even come into the imagination of this board. Leeds, Newcastle. Spurs even once Kane is gone?

He sold Stones and turned his nose up at Koulibaly for a similar fee. And wasted 㿔M on Williams and Keane instead.

He's said he "will buy a 㿲M striker but he's not paying the silly wages they want"??? Haha, so he won't pay for one then.

So a Dutch charlatan is brought in to magic boss players up? Why didn't Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd want Brands then? if he can unearth gems and has all the answers?

Absolute joke.

Basically, we are all waiting for one lucky season when we freakishly win a cup. I will celebrate wildly because I have realised how high the odds are. And any top players we find will be sold after their first great season.

On Keane I don't doubt he can have a good run of games I am saying he is not good enough and hasn't been overall.

In last seasons good run, who never played well? There will be players you didn't rate then or don't now that have had a good run of games.

With regard to the Walcott incident, me and those around me actually thought the VAR red card check WAS for the Spurs player.

It looked to us like Walcott had gone in full-blooded but fairly and the Spurs player had gone in two-footed. Only saw it the once, as it happened, so can't be sure but that's how we felt at the time.

That's where VAR falls down AGAIN as nobody was sure either way while the check went on.

Walcott was trying to drag the ball back with the sole of his boot. foul maybe, some would give it, but shithousery? Trying to maim???

If you are seriously trying to put that in the same category as Kuyt's gutless challenge on Neville, I don't see the point in arguing with you.

I don't know whether you saw the Walcott incident at all but, if you did, you have it totally wrong.

For a start, Walcott had his back to said player and dragged the ball back. The Spurs player coming in from late behind kicked Walcott so it should have been a free-kick to Everton, instead of which Martin Useless Atkinson gave them a free-kick and booked Walcott – which, for me, was the real turning point in the game because it riled the supporters and players so much we lifted our game.

It's something that got passed on from team to team. We always had someone who would put in the big tackle and get us going. Bu,t sometime after Moyes, we lost that. Jags, Coleman and Baines were still here and playing until only last season. Why's it not been passed on? Or is it just that we don't have such players anymore?

Lack of character in manager; players, as you outline, that no top teams go near or they are actually selling to us for high fees; players with no stomach for battling adversity; charlatans at directorship level.

It is truly depressing being stuck in the never-ending Everton maze with no way out. I brightened up my day by reviewing the photo of Alex Young vs Spurs 1963.

Your loyalty to the club and its players does you credit, but we are poles apart, there's not a lot more to be said.

With your reasoning a following and content partner to your standpoint, it's probably best if we just agree to disagree this time.

Everton is a small club (globally) and at best, a stepping stone destination that players view as a means to the next rung on their professional ladder. For every Seamus Coleman, there are 100 others who are here for 2-4 years and on to the next club. And it's like that everywhere now.

I'm not saying they don't respect the shirt and the badge, they just don't have that same connection that players of yesteryear did. So... we don't have them and you can't buy them.

Here's a name to salivate over if you want a homegrown Scouse mercenary:

Ross Barkley!

At the end of the day, it's no use trying to score points off each other by trying to prove you were right, or even worse, "I told you so." All of our competitors fans could be reading ToffeeWeb and pissing themselves laughing.

At the end of the day, all this bitching is achieving nothing, total useless energy spent. For all I know this is probably wasting my time. This thread reminds me of a bar full of adults who have had to much to drink, each trying to prove that they are in the right. We are all Evertonians and want the best for our club, but it's not achieved by tearing ourselves apart.

Oh I wish for the times when I went in the Netley or the Springfield after he game at 5pm, asking the barman to turn the racing off on C4, so we could see the results and argued the toss between four or five of my mates.

Paul A, perhaps Walsh was a double agent. Working for us, even commanding a transfer fee... yet allowing Leicester to pick up the better players while we got Klaassen and Sandro. Oh and Bolasie.

Everton's luck mirrors my own.

We have better players than we think we do l recon. How good could we be if our manager could unlock the potential? Davies could really break through this year. I'd even forgotten about Gbamin. Wonder how long he is out for now.

Ah yes, the Netley, Chocca full of Evertonians with 40 or 50 glasses of Guinness lined up on the bar, with the same amount of cheese and ham cobs ready for sale, to drink and eat while we discussed the latest Everton victory.

Happy days indeed, but gone forever, like a lot of great Bluenoses I used to drink with, mores the pity.

While I'm at it, Son, not Song.

Everything else you'd written seemed so assured, though I agreed with very little of it.

I think we do ourselves down as fans. In any industry, people who participate, observe, and read about a topic as much as we do and for as many years as we do would be considered experts.

We might not see players in training but I reckon our opinion is absolutely valid. How many Evertonians saw that playing two defensive midfielders was a problem? We certainly reached that conclusion well before the professional football manager that picks the team did.

Don't the players realize that, if they put a shift in, the crowd will respond?

I know we all love Everton but what is happening to the Club from the top down is little short of a disgrace, and the victims are us as fans. Especially loyal fans like you Rob who attends every match home or away, and in the distant past abroad, rain hail or snow.

It is easy to vent one's spleen after such poor displays by the team, and in response to fellow posters, which I'm sure isn't meant, it's just that a Forum like TW is the only way to do so, as the guilty are conveniently out of reach.

Another practice that is extremely unwise is to post after a few beers, as we all say things we don't really mean, and spill in the heat of the moment only to regret it in sobriety.

I thought overall, Everton played reasonably well. The Iowbi pass split his own defence and, Mina's roly-poly tackle aside, Davies was outstanding.

Son's tackle on Gomes from from behind, not near the ball, clearly out to spoil Gomes's play, was aggressive and dangerous. Definite red card.

The Premier Leagues introduction of VAR is half-baked. With the money available, there are definitely a few Muppets involved.

Silva has still not got a settled and organised attack. Out-of-favour players seem to be our savours at the moment. There is still weaknesses in pass completion in the final third.

If Richarlison could have cut out the dying swan routines, Everton would have got a clear penalty.

How many managers now or recent years were never footballers or not for long? There is plenty, some very successful but a Walsh comes in and some empty head will tell you "I'm sure he knows better than you".

Of course he is closer to players but we watch football enough to know what makes sense surely? The biggest killer is why nobody asks if he is such a genius or shrewd football man, why don't the best clubs want him?

Near everyone was delighted with Schneiderlin (at first) and thought we signed a gem, my original thought was forget hype and the joy of a fresh face, when do Man Utd sell us a gem?

There are far more intelligent people than me that wouldn't have the balls to ask themselves that question.

So, in summary, we respect the PE teachers and Director of Football blaggers that have never kicked a ball but all our managers get ridiculed.

The significance of this situation is the presence of systematic bias in the officiating. That bias is not random in the sense in which you are talking, but systematic in that it has a clear observable pattern. Yes, we should never really think too much about random events, but systematic root causes of problems are an entirely different matter.

What the Premier League are doing, prima facie, is endangering players of certain clubs through biased officiating, when they should be protecting players so far as they reasonably can, through proper officiating. You can never fully prevent broken ankles, but an organisation should not be guilty of practices that make such things more likely.

The same message to you, Jay Harris: I didn't say Walcott's was a bad tackle – just pointing out Mr Hind's interpretation would have had Walcott sent off.

Bad results.
Poor football.
Terrible luck.

It's hard to see Silva turning it around from here though maybe Gomes' injury may result in a rallying cry. I do feel that we've been hard-done-by at times (so does every fan of every team in every sport). Especially the controversial VARs against Brighton and Spurs. If they go for us rather than against us then maybe we win both matches and we are 7th instead of 17th. And in the quarter finals. Big and probably unhelpful 'ifs'.

The margins are small but seem to be going against us in all ways.

The Southampton match may well result in the losing manager being sacked. Silva has shown some more flexibility in the last few matches and the players apparently back him entirely. But results are all that matter in the last chance saloon.

I don't like the reality either, to be fair, but to move on, or "evolve" as Gary Neville says, it's important we don't miss a detail as loyal fans and also fine-tooth comb the lot of it.

Otherwise, we just ride it out again and again.

Many years ago, my Sunday league team were playing The Netley in a Liverpool county FA Cup game up in Bootle. Everything was going well up to half time, only because we were losing 2-1. The second half was a different kettle of fish altogether. We equalised, then went 3-2 then 4-2 ahead. The Netley players and their line didn't take too well to this. Come the end of the game, they had had four players sent off, and everyone, including the three subs, booked. Only one player from their fourteen wasn't booked or sent off, and he actually came to us and apologised for what had happened.

Their line, which was the length of the pitch, were encroaching onto the pitch, and come towards the end of the game, they must have been a good ten yards onto the pitch. I was in goal and will never forget the threats I was receiving.

I believe they were expelled from all Sunday football by the Liverpool County FA after that, so apologies if either of you two were involved with The Netley. Their expulsion had nothing to do with us!!!

As Howard Kendall once said, you can as a team look as if you have potential and just have players of potential, but the team has to realise the potential and win games, or words to that effect, when he took over as manager of a young Man City side.

It's a shame as (despite everything) I still think Silva may be the hardest-working and most likeable manager we've had in a long time. I would not be surprised to see him do well elsewhere. Beginning to think with managers it may be more us than them!

I would rather be managed by a debt management agent. Whoever is next needs backing.

Although I still think Silva showed what he can do when we have a proper 11 and time to gel.

Was Kendall the last manager to put more than 3 past Man Utd in a win?
Moyes got a 4-4 draw at Old Trafford didn't he.

Having now watched the Gomes injury on TV several times, my view is that Son's tackle was from behind, no where near the ball, having gone through Gomes tripping him up in a poor tackle.

I agree it should be a red card simply because it's a bad tackle from behind. These were outlawed many seasons ago for this very reason. That's the rules without taking the injury into account.

But I also think Aurier (2nd spurs player?) should have received a red card for a reckless challenge. He slid into the challenge in an uncontrolled and miss-timed dangerous way, studs first and didn't get the ball.

Walcott's tackle was a good tackle. He cleanly won the ball and regained possession by changing direction. This meant his foot moved from the top of the ball to behind it. I accept there was minimal contact with a Spurs player who was also challenging for the ball.

If this is viewed as a free-kick to Spurs, I disagree, it is a contact sport, but am willing to accept that - but a yellow card, never.

Mina on Son is 50/50 even after re-watching it. There is contact in the box. But is it Son diving / going to ground easily forcing the contact on Mina's or is Mina's fall / grounding causing the contact?

Handball is clearly handball which should be a yellow card and penalty. Alli's arm was high up and out wide, not a silhouette and a simple decision. The only argument is if it didn't hit his arm. It did.

What ever the outcome and challenges are to these decisions, it needs to be made public for everyone's benefit. We all should be able to understand and learn from it.

No communication and the inconsistent use or otherwise is causing the biggest issue. Please just explain the final decision for everyone's benefit or don't show replays.

That said, there is an understandably frustrated fanbase at the moment and getting them onside with the team and manager is crucial moving forwards. Someone like Benitez or Gerrard is likely to get very little patience if not hitting the ground running.

Two managers I'd be looking at are Rose and Hutter in the Bundesliga who are both having very good seasons. Also, the likes of Kovac, Emery and Pochetinno may all be looking for new jobs soon.

Also, there's no way Gerrard would ever manage us. He feels almost as deeply as a converted red and surely he harbours desire to manage Liverpool and this could harm his chances.

Rogers and Benitez might have considered managing us in the past and maybe again the future. But the same applies. The first sign of trouble would see them get a lot of anger from those who despise Liverpool.

If we replace Silva, then we should get in someone who can unify the fan base. Some superstar manager could, but that's not happening. With Brands in place, the harder part of the job for a rookie (transfers and recruitment) is no longer in their hands. They can focus on coaching and picking the side.

I think someone like Arteta should be the leading candidate / target. Forget forcing Cahill on him, let him pick his own guys. I'd be surprised if Cahill was not one of his choices anyway. But I hope he'd also bring some old mentor with him we've never heard of. Like Moyes with Jimmy Lumsden.

I don't know if Arteta would be a good manager, but he's got the coaching credentials now. The main thing though, is he'd unite the fanbase. He'd have total backing and he would be given all the time that other candidates would not get.

I'd also like Unsworth to be given another shot, but I don't think he'd get the same level of support as Arteta as some blues have already decided he's not good enough.

Forget about unifying the fans though, mate. That should have happened when things have gone wrong on the board's account but things have to be on-trend for the fans to be unified and trend is usually wrong or empty.

Silva should swallow his pride and employ a guy who can organise defences. Just like Martinez should have done.

Anyway, Saints and Norwich first.

Arteta always had an edge to him. I think that, like Klopp, he's smiley and pleasant and presents well, but I wouldn't worry about him being too nice. I think he's only nice if you're on side with him.

For me, those kind of guys make the best managers. You want to be on side and so work hard for them, but you're scared of letting them down and falling out of favour. That's how I always perceived a young Mourinho from the biography.

I would be very surprised if Benitez couldn't do a better job with this squad of players than Silva is currently managing. He'd cost a lot of money but then we're not exactly getting managers on the cheap with our current rate of managerial recruitment.

We need to start getting winners into the club and instilling a winning mentality. If they played or managed Liverpool in the past then so be it. There's something in that lot's DNA where they never give up.

If they're trailing with minutes to play they'll get back into it and win it. You just know they will. Look at the Barcelona turn around last season. How many times does this happen?

We are the absolute opposite. We can't relax as Evertonians until we're 3 goals up. If we have a 1 goal lead going into the final minutes, I almost expect the other team to equalise and then even go on and win it.

If Benitez could bring any of that luck or self-belief with him that he enjoyed with them then I for one would welcome it. We can't keep trying the unproven up-and-coming manager who will revert to safety first football because the job is too big for them.

David above talks about chewing on glass, and if we pursued Gerard I'd join him and throw in a few poison rat pellets to boot.

Klopp fell into a well of riches with a player pool already strong whereas Silva came into a club in turmoil and it's gotten worse as Moshiri hedges his bets.

Moshiri will have lot's of egg on his face if he fires Silva to early as this would be an admittance of a really bad appointment – not to mention the compensation.
We all would like to think that Moshiri has his irons in the fire to bring in a much better man with pedigree should Silva not be able to get things going soon (very unlikely).

Getting back to the Gomes situation, I would say it was very unfortunate and, if it had been caused by a known hard man type player, then one could view it differently. Son has no history of bad challenges and I am sure many challenges like that do not result in bad injuries. The whole thing was unfortunate and hopefully Gomes makes a full recovery and comes back even better for next season.

Personally, I'd chew on broken glass if Moyes were to come back. The guy still likes us but it would be a massive step backwards in my opinion.

We don't need to employ nice guys. I'd have Mourinho but I don't think he'd come anywhere near us. Someone with pedigree is what we should be demanding though.

I pinned my colours to the mast a long time ago and Benitez would easily be the best option, experienced in every way, at least he would not be accused of not knowing what he's doing! Although I'm not sure if that would be the case with some on here, they would complain if they won the lottery.

Very bad luck for Gomes and of course the squad; as I said earlier in the thread, we are going to really struggle without the injured players, it's ripped the guts out of the team.

It's getting scary.

Though I highly doubt Arteta would leave an assistant coach job at City for an assistant coach job with us.

But I can dream!

Also Arteta has learned almost exclusively under Guardiola. Would that brand of football work for us? I'm not sure it would with the current crop of players.

I absolutely hear what you say about finding someone who unites the fan but personally I'd also like someone who has proven to a degree that he can do the job. I'm not sure that includes Arteta. Though if we did go for him I'd be excited to see what he could do. I'm not convinced any manager would really unite the fans and I'm pretty sure the first time Arteta lost there'd be plenty saying why did we give it to someone with no experience.

I imagine there's a decent chance Unsworth could get the caretaker role again. Certainly if the results continue to evade us and Brands & Moshiri feel bound to remove Silva before having the right permanent successor lined up. I think you feel like me that Unsworth was removed too soon last time.

I too have hoped that Silva would do well and have been impressed with the style of play and what he has tried to do. The problem is I find that the same problems still exist and still need addressed. I also believe that same problems areas still exist within the Club and stifle the required changes.

Maybe the problems are two big or outside the Managers remit, but I am finding that Moshiri, Brands and Silva appear to have bought into a flawed Everton Club philosophy, making it more unlikely that the necessary changes will not materialise. This why I believe changing the Manager alone may not change Everton.

Of course as a keen Observer and independent Everton fan you are able to see that the solution may require thinking outside the box and too a large extent you are right.

For years long Suffering Everton fans have allowed themselves to be deluded by the hipe that togs at Collective heart strings of Evertonians, that Everton is a big club, has the right to occupy the higher echelons of football and will be the best of the rest and one step from success. The People's Club.
Someone needs to come in and tell Evertonians the truth.

Very little has changed over the years. Though different Managers, players, Owners, levels of investment and generations of fans have changed.

The Everton Story perameters of achievement are easily identified. Premier League Survival and nothing else. The whole lot needs a collective shake up and the sooner out side the box solutions are looked at the better.

Keep thinking outside the box Sam, you are right.

Why would Arteta not work? Intelligent person, players would look up to hin. He's learnt from one of the best.

As has been mentioned lets look at Lampard and what he's done at Chelsea over a short period.
He lost his best player. Stuck with players that would of had to have moved on if the transfer ban wasnt in place. Zouma would be with us, maybe Abrahams too. He kept them and they are now playing well and regular. Hes also introduced another 2 or 3 youngsters and they are also excelling. Why is this?? Why can he do what Silva cannot and with just a season experience with Derby. Pep was promoted from within with Barca.
We all know this.

His squad has gelled very quickly. They make it look simple. We make it look hard. They played Man U early in the season and lost but you could see straight away what he was trying to do.

No more excuses l've had enough. Silva will have these two games l recon. But if one of those goes pear shaped thats it. Maybe his first choice midfield would be Gomes and Gbamin but he has had Davies, Delph and Schneiderlin... and Beni waiting in the wings. He has Baines who signed a one year extension and is still a cracking player... and he might not see a single minute. Took him ages to bring in Holgate but fair enough he has his chance now. Up front and in the final third unless its 100 mph high octane and only at home we have nothing.. l'm going back to bed. (Benitez my arse)
(Gerrard... ffs)
Dooda dooda dooda dooda. This is the toffeezone.

The Netley ended up taking over the reins of “The Sandon” Rob H, and so found themselves back in the league once again.

The Sandon went on to become one of the most successful Sunday league teams, winning the Liverpool Sunday Premier Lge quite a few times, and having a massive rivalry with their arch enemies The Britt, and it was a pleasure to play in a few of those games, even on “compost corner” Were the crowd was sometimes in the high hundreds and there wasn't enough room to swing a cat! Great days had by all!

Paul, maybe you're like me, not a fan of Moyes, but that is just one of the many games that Moyes took a knife to a gunfight, then put the knife away and unfurled a large white flag.

No Rob I drank in The Netley because it was nice and lively in their, good atmosphere after the match and that was the only time I drank there, after the game, I lived close to town and always drank there.

By the way Ihope your team went on to win the cup.

Imagine the post match interviews. "Donald you lost 5-0 to Liverpool, what went wrong?"
"Don't listen to the corrupt commentators. FAKE GOALS. Nobody has had a better result than we had today, probably in the history of Everton football club."

I have been hugely impressed by Tim Cahill every time he speaks and I think it is clear that his aim is to become the Everton manager at some time in the future

On Arteta. Do you think he would leave City straight away if we came calling? Or do you think he will hold fire at City in the hope of replacing Pep when he goes?

Just spoke to our Tony, he might know two three players from the Netley team you played against, he said there was a few naughty boys in that team and a couple of dozen nutcases who watched them!!

Based on what you and Rob report, even now they probably gave JC a shake down!

In an announcement Chinese side Guangzhou Evergrande, said the former Real Madrid and Juventus defender Fabio Cannavaro had submitted to "deep self-reflection" regarding his performance.
They criticised his "weak ability to rectify mistakes, and insufficiently strict handling of players".
Guangzhou added that Cannavaro had been warned to work harder, improve the standard of his coaching staff, and "raise the players' overall fighting ability to win the Chinese Super League" again.
"If you are going to do it, do your best," Evergrande Group chairman Xu Jiayin told Cannavaro.

Why do you feel you can begin to contest a point when you omit the most important part of it ?

Which bit of this are you having trouble Understanding

Shithousery (cowardice)

"A deliberate attempt to maim or badly damage an opponent, whilst not putting oneself in any danger at all" . .You either deliberately missed that bit out, or it zoomed right over your head.and as usual, to create an argument which fits your answer.

Breaking news. . Your answer doesnt even fit the argument you are creating. Walcott did not even make the tackle he already had it. He tried to drag the ball back and his foot slipped off it coming down on the guys foot. He did not as you (for some bizarre reason claim) go in with your studs up.

I Actually didnt mention sending off in that post. YOU did that.

If you think Walcott went in to deliberately maim or badly damage his opponent, whilst not putting himself in any danger ? There is absolutely nothing I can say to you..

Tony, the Bob the pole goal (great finish) was in a 3-0 away win mate. Great memory.

Moyes looked after his own reputation in his last few seasons..
Going back to Howard Kendall's terrific side that demolished United 5-0 at goodison, that era was when United were like a newly promoted side compared to us.

Last season we beat them 4-0 and looked like a club up the up and a great opportunity to step over United for at least a season or 2 while they rebuild.

How did we let that slip away? That is most horrible feeling for me in this run of form. They didn't even sign the superstar they usually sign and still we find ourselves behind them.

Arsenal and United were there to be leapfrogged with the quality additions we needed. Sickener.

What do you think the reaction would be if Arteta (or honestly any other manager) came in, and we remained in a relegation battle deep into February? How much patience would supporters have then?

I don't agree on the Spurs tactics though. Theirs were as cautious as ours but we looked far more likely to make the breakthrough if anyone and shut them out easily in the first half...

Their goal came when we were on top and we played a hand in it.

Yes extremely pedantic, Song is a Korean name and very close to Son, a very easy mistake and Gomez vs Gomes? Does it really matter, how many players with the name Gomes/Gomez do we have in the team?

Andre? Do you know him personally? Putting aside his Injury, he's yet to earn his keep and has under perfomed as badly as anyone in that team, before his injury he could have done me the courtesy of putting in consistant performances week in and week out and fully earning my money.

I doubt very much that it's the pronounciation of the players names involved that has gotten your ire, the answer to that is in your final sentence.

Just speak your mind instead of hiding behind petty admonishments.

Due to the events of the game it has probably been forgotten by a lot of people which is understandable.

I was virtually a junior when he played for Everton but he was the first player I ever admired.

I personally think that Brands and Moshiri think that Silva may be able within the next two years of his contract bring Everton to a certain level. They are unlikely to want to bring in another Manager at this stage, to start all over again. They are more likely next year as Silvas contract ends to be looking for a Manager to bring Everton to the next level, who has proven ability ie. that has challenged in competitions at all levels.

Southampton may well be his final one. They're in the bottom three and leaking goals, the worst defence in the prem.

Another performance like the Brighton or the Bournemouth one, surely this will leave the top brass with a decision to make.

I may or may not be oversimplifying things, but as a billionaire, I am fairly certain that business comes before any love of football. Brands is I'm sure a different story, but well, it ain't his money.

Whether or not these likely situations involve keeping, or sacking, Silva, remains to be seen, but like Jerome above you, I wouldn't be that surprised if Silva easily gets the rest of this year, and possibly even next. Don't forget that Moshiri has already paid out more than £25m in manager buyouts. Rich people don't like losing money, no matter how much you or I think that's pittance compared to his overall wealth.

I can see your reasoning and agree with your understanding of these uber wealthy business types, but should we suffer defeat at Southampton and then taking into consideration the December fixture list, the axe I suspect may fall.

As wealthy as he is there's also a PR aspect to his position and I doubt he would want to alienate the fan base too much.

If that month goes against us things could become both worrying and very embarrassing for us come the new year.

I believe he's just started doing his ‘A' licence at Finch Farm.

What will those optics look like if he gets the sack, is replaced by [whomever], and we're still in a relegation battle, only this time in February. Uh oh.

Food for thought: the table is TERRIBLE this year, and could actually be the saving grace for the entire season (depending on what one's personal tolerance levels are).

Southampton: projects out to 28 pts.
Norwich: projects out to 24 pts.
Watford: projects out to 17 pts. Ooof

That "magic 38 pts" may never even be close to mattering.

It's an each-way bet we and him will just manage to stagger over the line in May.

My pick tomorrow or in May would be Bielsa, but he might put himself out of contention by getting Leeds promoted.

Should it all turn to an even bigger bowl of custard that it is now in December. I don't see Arteta (with or without Cahill, not arsed either way) jumping ship and leaving Pep in the lurch at Christmas and I'm not sure I'd want him if he did.

A tsunami of custard not withstanding, it's a case of Churchill's KBO, keep buggering on until May.

Yes, of course you are right.

But I still think that Brands and Moshiri will still see getting rid of Silva as going back to square one, which might mean that any type of result in the next games will mean Silva will hold on.

The performance against Tottenham wasn't as bad as it could have been and a draw away from home against Southampton is possible. Norwich at home is also doable. Leicester City away from home will show whether Silva has the support of Finch Farm, who normally help a dead man walking on his way. Silva does seem to have the support of the players at this stage.

Then it's Liverpool away, Chelsea home and Man Utd away which could prove problematic in December.

I do see why there is wild speculation about a change of Manager, but a suitable candidate is not really available and no-one will be clamouring for the job.
Unless there is a relegation danger, Silva will stay. It is clear to Silva and sundry that away performances regarding results have to improve.

Silva will have to decide whether he is in the wars or a battle, and get his act together. It ain't going to be pretty. One thing that I am sure of is that Everton's lazy bugger of a first-team squad have the potential to raise their game just enough to get through.

The start of the season was wasted and how anyone at Everton got it into their heads that preparation was in anyway up to it, is beyond me.

I didn't know he was doing his badges with us. Maybe he will get Dunc's role in the future after all.

I would expect Southampton to do better than 28pts, they're not a bad outfit when they're rolling.

In general I'd take any projections with a pinch of salt, It's all about December the relegation picture will come into sharp focus in the new year and we'll know what's what.

There can be no complacency!