Everton Players and Legends

Don't disagree with your thoughts, perhaps adding Jagielka, Lescott and Distin as one entity with Yakubu and Lukaku as another. Other than that, we're feeding off scraps.

I think we've had a lot of good players in poor teams who could have flourished and complemented the classic side of the 1980s and perhaps with the remnants of it, won us more trophies.

Jagielka and Baines would have held their own in the '85 side meanwhile, if we'd had Speed, Cahill, Fellaini, Hinchcliffe, Yakubu and Jeffers all at their best in the same side together, that could have got interesting.

I think what always frustrates me is that we have had sides on paper that should have done so much better than they did. In the early '90s our front line included Mo Johnston, Tony Cottee and Peter Beardsley, all highly respected and feared forwards. But we hung around mid-table.

Years later we had Andy Johnson and Yakubu available to us (both 20-goals-a-season strikers) and one gets a really bad injury and the other goes off the boil perhaps due to certain remarks made by rival managers.

I always think if you have a spine that is reliable (which we probably haven't had for a decade) – good keeper, centre-halves, at least one good full-back, centre-mid, creative mid and forward – that you can shape less talented players in and around it or give youth a chance.

Heck, in some of our sides, we've been able to nurture works in progress because the spine was so strong (Anichebe, Davies, Calvert-Lewin, Barkley) but now that core set of players isn't there.

When I read the match reviews, it doesn't go unnoticed how some players might be 8/10 one week and 5/10 the next.

All of Rooney's peak years were at Manchester United where he is entitled to be classed as a club legend. For us, he was a brilliant teenager and later an effective veteran but sadly we missed out on his best years.

Two players from the last 20 years who would not have looked out of place in any of the great Everton teams I have seen were Lukaku and Arteta.

Lukaku had the ability to create his own chances, could shoot with either foot and for four seasons masked the many deficiencies in other parts of the team. He is the best central striker we have had since the 1980s and it may be decades before we see anyone comparable in our colours.

Arteta became a central midfield pivot but in his early years was a joy to watch in all the midfield roles. He scored some cracking goals including several from free kicks at which he was one of our best exponents since Sheedy.

The rest of my family are red but I love them anyway. My red dad took me to Goodison a few times once I bucked the family trend as a youngster, all credit to him. I can remember Crimbo prezzies that were 2 pairs of tickets to Goodison.

Yeah he's an entitled RS and moans when they're "only" winning 3-0, but he never complained (too much) about me being the Blue sheep of the family. There's always one, I suppose, and may it ever be so.

Hard pressed to think of another player who means as much to me as Super Latch, you never forget your first as they say. Love Big Nev, Lineker (in an EFC shirt), Peter Reid, Bainesy etc etc Sheedy? Yrs.

Danny O'Neill or anyone else with local knowledge, I'll be in London for a few days this weekend (from Canada) and have pretty much given up on getting an away ticket. Appreciate any recommendations where to watch us beat West Ham in the Angel - Islington area. Any pub that isn't full of bubble blowers will do fine.

I know that area well and there are some top boozers – Fox on the Green, Islington Town House on Liverpool Street.

But hop on a tube mate to Warren Street or Goodge Street stations, as there are always Blues at The Fitzrovia Belle on Tottenham Court Road.

I think the landlord is a Blue. Within walking distance – 15 minutes – of Angel and one of my top three London areas: Clerkenwell.

You got the Horseshoe on Clerkenwell Close, just off Clerkenwell Green, boss boozer, run by a Blue, a year or so ago at any rate.

It might have helped if you did not mix up idols and legends Danny. They are two completely different things. Idol makes me think of Shoot cut out wall pictures or praying for your idol on a footy card when buying six packs of chewy.

I idolised Latchford but he is not a legend. Dave Thomas, same.I worshipped Sheeds - my favourite Everton player with these eyes of mine ever - but he is not a legend. I saw a rolls royce in Bracewell, but he's no legend. Trevor Steven, I idolised. Ratcliffe was sublime.

But John fucking Stones! Seriously? Gary - who you call 'solid' - Stevens? Peter shithouse Beardsley! Wayne two-year Rooney! Andrei Kanchelskis: Leighton Baines: Tim Cahill, thee exclamation marks. I love each one of them, but 'legend' .......

Thank you Danny for not mentioning Ferguson.

Seamus Coleman, no legend, has a greater case for legend status than any one of these.

Legend kind of demands long-term loyalty plus so much more.

Everton legends from 1878 on are so special and should be counted on two hands not the ten or twelve hands of a gobshite red shite mutant in-bred Bergen or Trondheim slug.

I defer to the wonderful older and wiser heads we have on here - like Dave-A, Ray Roche, John-Mac, George, please get better, and others who I'm sorry not to name - for the legends before 1970.

We have had in my opinion a single candidate for legend since say 1975 and that is Neville Southall.

More recently we've had Martinez who raided so many players from relegated Cup Winners Wigan.

Was it Silva who brought in Richarlison and Doucoure(?) from Watford.

Koeman went Dutch and a few from his time at Southampton, Martina and Schneiderlin.

Even Ancelotti went back to Real for a few.

Benitez would never have been allowed to go back to his old club and we now seem to have a few from Burnley although I'm not sure we can put them all down to Dyche.

Add to that the interference from above, no, not that high, more under the Main (soon to be Last?) Stand.

I think it was Howard Kendall (although it may have been Harry Catterick) who said he envied Bob Paisley's ability to don a flat cap and stand on the terraces unidentified to watch any player he was interested in. Can you envisage any DoF saying the same?

I'll stand by mine as you will yours.

I agree with you about the term ‘legend’. I don't like using it and thought hard about using it.

Neil, drop me a line. If you can't get a ticket, I'll meet up with you in Fitzrovia. Take Paul’s advice. It's where a lot of blues land as they depart Euston.

One player who I do think should be considered and is mostly forgotten about when this matter is discussed is Dave Watson.

I wish he was playing now, he would certainly give us leadership.

Bill, I'd put Kevin Ratcliffe ahead of Dave Watson who I think so highly of. Tarkowski has a bit of Dave Watson about him. Agree, totally, we need the likes of him now.

I remember Dave Watson not particularly being welcomed at Everton initially as he was replacing a fans' favourite in Derek Mountfield.

I think a home game against Watford was particularly toxic on that subject?

Tarkowski does have that leadership in him and can work well alongside the apprentice Branthwaite.

But they need a midfield in front of them; otherwise, backs against the wall can only hold out for so long.

A lot of it towards the docks was flattened during the war and the other part, where all the doctors were in the big houses, was flattened by the Corpy not so long ago.

As for Dave Watson, yes, he was a good centre-half alright, and a good leader. As for Kevin Ratcliffe, he was another good leader. I wouldn't like to judge between the pair of them, Kevin had really good fullbacks and another good centre-half with him, Derek Mountfield.

If we're talking about a legend, then I'd put Alex Young in that category.

Ray Wilson should be but would likely be omitted because he went about things so quietly – but, my word, he was a player of the very highest quality. Pat van den Hauwe is legendary for the wrong reasons albeit an absolute top-class player.

Sadly I struggle to think of anyone remotely deserving of legend status since the 80s. It really is a much-overused word!

Ted Sagar was outstanding before I watched him, he was in the twilight of his career when I did. Tommy Lawton and Joe Mercer, great players, had just left. T G Jones played but was then in dispute with Theo Kelly the manager and left to join Bangor City. He was a fabulous footballing world class centre-half, was he a legend?

Then I watched a variety of good players but until the late 1950s and early 1960s: no contenders for the legend status. Then: Bobby Collins could have been but Catterick sold him and he went to Leeds; some would have Alex Young, if so then Roy Vernon has to be considered; Brian Labone great player, captain and Evertonian?

Tony Kay if he could have stayed in football would certainly have to be considered. My son Tony would definitely vote for Peter Reid, idolised him. I liked him myself… but legend?

Since then, only Southall, for me, is a legend. Plenty of names offered but I feel sorry for the fans since the 1980s, they really have been starved of top class.

I can't wait to see players except for Wayne Rooney, only two seasons, so can't be a legend for us; Everton's loss was Man Utd's gain, what a fabulous player. What we got back from Man Utd was a player with all his best days behind him.

I have liked quite a few players in those years… but legends? Sorry – none of them.

Surely legend status is something that is assigned by each generation. My Grandfather would have told you Dean, my Dad Hickson, my son Cottee.

My Everton legend is Derek Temple. He scored at Anfield after less than a minute on my first visit to Mordor in 1964, he confirmed this status with the winning goal in the 1966 Cup Final. Scored 82 goals in 272 appearances, by and large from the left wing how he only got 1 England cap is beyond me.

I'd say there are a couple of categories to qualify as a legend. The first is to have won something. So for me Labone and West would qualify, having been in 2 Championship winning teams plus the Cup in 66. I'd add Morrisey, who appeared in 2 Championship winning teams. Temple who scored a cup winner would qualify maybe.

Wilson who won the cup and was the best left-back I've seen in the pre Sky era, and was the best in the world in his position. Harvey won the cup and the Championship, as well as coaching and managing. Ball would be my choice too. Young and Vernon as a pair, and Vernon as a League winning captain. Kay a massive loss. He might've been the best of the lot.

Members of the 80s teams would also qualify on that basis. Watson for sure. Southall too. Ratcliffe? Sheedy? Reid and Gray for galvanising the whole damn thing. Harvey here at Coach too. Kendall as manager and player?

The other category is possibly those who were just so good in a fallow era, and lifted the team performance by themselves. I'd definitely include Collins in that, who did everything bar make the tea! And yes, he was let go way too early. His partnership with Vernon was brilliant on its day.

Baines was our best left back in the modern era. Hickson won promotion in 54. Would he qualify, or Parker? Kanchelskis, the difference between to top 6 team and a relegation team, but the manner of his leaving leaves a nasty taste for me.

But you're right few and far between, and very concentrated in a couple of short periods.

Story of our life, Dave.

I never realised that Derek Temple had scored so many goals. That total, from a left winger, is incredible.

Many a centre-forward would envy that total and goal-per-game ratio. And many of his goals were memorable as well. Vastly under-rated player.

Chris, you've got a good point. Legend can come in so many ways I suppose. One is just statistics but they never tell the whole story.

And "Legend"can depend on so many things as well. What that "Legend" has meant to the ones who have seen them and why they rate him as a legend.

But I think, "Great" player is a way of labelling players. And we've had plenty of them, and Good players as well. Trouble is, for too long, we've had a fair proportion of Pudd'ns as well.

I saw many of Derek Temple's games. I never thought of him as an orthodox left winger. He could play across all the front positions frequently popping up in the middle to score his goals.

I remember him scoring the only goal at home to Spurs 0 years ago this week. Roy Vernon took the ball to the byline in front of the Street End before cutting it back to Temple who rifled it low and hard from the edge of the box past Bill Brown.

Temple was one of the most reliable one one-on-one finishers I have ever seen. His goal in the ‘66 FA Cup Final was one of many similar he scored in our colours.

The end of his career at our club in the autumn of 1967 marked the most disgraceful barracking of a player I have ever witnessed. As his name was announced before a home game against Leeds, there was widespread booing in the crowd.

What a way to treat one of our all-time heroes! It left a nasty taste in the mouth and demonstrated that numbskull criticism of individual players is nothing new.

Yes, it's how each individual perceives players, time spent at the club is one thing I looked at: Colin Harvey could be classed in the same field as Brian Labone.

TG Jones really was exceptional although I saw him through the eyes of an 8-year-old boy, he mesmerised me with his performances.

Tony Kay stood out with solid performances, tackles, passes, will to win and professional attitude, a future captain of Everton and England?

For such a massive club, we never achieved long spells of success in my time as an Everton fan. I would have liked that but I loved watching football and it wasn't essential, for me, to be winning every year.

But football then and now are two entirely different games and I'm losing my love for football the way it is being played today: Success at any cost.

Yes there's a whole weight of emotional baggage behind people's opinions on this sort of subject. I started watching them in 1954, when they came back up. Collins was the first I saw who was a different class. Vernon was another class again and I was 11 when I first saw him. It was first love, and you never forget that.

Derek Temple was massively underrated. He played a lot at inside forward and centre forward early on. Scored a hat-trick against Ipswich who were Champions under Ramsey before he got the England job.

You can add Brian Harris to the underrated list too.

The Pudd'n list would be much longer though.

In the '60s, us, Man Utd and Liverpool won it twice, but you had the likes of Burnley, Ipswich, Man City, Leeds, winning it for the first time in some instances.

The good footballers were spread around the clubs too, and it was a pleasure to watch the likes of Burnley, Blackburn and the likes of McIlroy, Connelly, MacEvoy, Douglas et al. At least as long as we beat them!

Watching Derek Temple growing up playing for Liverpool schoolboys and Everton youth teams he was a natural goalscoring centre forward even with his slight frame, scoring plenty of goals with hard crisp shots as you describe, the perfect one at Wembley to win us the FA Cup.

He hits that ball well before Ron Springett in goal expects him to and he turns away nonchalantly after scoring like it was just another game. No hysterics, running back to restart the game.

A very humble person who even later in life he was surprised by how well he was respected by most Everton fans. He reminded me of Ian Callaghan of Liverpool in that way, never ever got too big for his boots.

I met Derek at one of my son's pubs, and he's as you say a thoroughly nice man, a proper gent. A bit embarrassed by the fuss I think.

Yes I agree with all of your post and you could add Spurs to the list of clubs you named and Blanchflower, Jones, White and Dave McKay to the players you named, by the way Willie McKay brother of Dave was on Everton's books for a spell playing in the reserves.

Those players and dozens of very good players like Bobby Charlton earned less in their whole careers than players of today earn in a month or a week in some cases!

Southall is the greatest player I've seen play for Everton, and I wish we had never had a young Wayne Rooney, because his sale kept the curse involved at Everton, and the curse has taken us as far backwards as the one that affected Rip Van Fuckin Winkle!

My own favourite is Peter Reid, because I genuinely think I learned more about football and playing in midfield, by watching him at his peak for three great seasons, than I learned off listening to Archie Gemill, Brian Clough, and Martin O'Neill, when sharing a changing room, with these great knowledgeable genuine football people.

That's some accolade when I think about it, but it's a different story when I've met Reidy, because that's where the love affair ends!!

I was a bit later than you. I started going, when I had the money, in the boys pen .Roughly around the time when Johnny Carey became our manager and Sir John allowed him to get all those wonderful players.There was a big picture of Bobby in his Everton football shirt, in the paper, when he signed for us.

I can remember Bobby Collins alright, the "Little General" I think Alex called him and "you daren't not do what he said" when referring to him. What a fantastic player, with his size 4 boots! I've still got a tape of Alex, somewhere, doing and interview with the Echo football editor for EFC.

There's a couple of stories about a number of Everton players and Catterick; and I can remember when Bobby left, he became Leeds player of the year. Brian Harris was another top player in a top team. Another underrated player, except by the supporters.

Agreed about Royston as well, fantastic forward and must have weighed about ten stone soaking wet. Him and Alex scored around 50 goals in our 62-63 season. we're lucky if our whole team gets that now. Think we got 88 goals in the 62-63 season.

In reply to your final paragraph, too many foreign and double-barrelled names these days. 'and we love our Dominic Calvert-Lewin', doesn't really scan. Nor does Idrissa Gana Gueye, Amadou Onana or Beto for that matter.

Write something new, way too many of our songs dwell on an increasingly distant past. Even Grand Old Team is starting to grate.

I think those away fans of ours make a brilliant support and at home we don't do too bad at all either. A great job with the old songs. The trouble is, we haven't had much to make songs about for a long time!

At least enthusiastic songs. I think one or two could be made about our Chairman but I don't think they'd be very nice. For years, we've not really had much to write home about, let alone sing enthusiastic ones.

Take your point about the double-barrelled names, we'd need some top-class composers for them.

It's difficult to get excited about lads earning lots of dosh and failing to deliver the goods for so long, never mind pen a witty song for the crowd to sing about. Michael Keane – something to the tune of I should be so lucky?

I also believe that there has only been one 'Legend' and that is Dixie Dean. I once submitted an article, ''Favourites Aren't Always The Best'', and I think that a similar title of, "Excellent Players Aren't Always Legends'' could be used in this instance.

Sorry Jim. just woke up! Yes, Boundary Street, thanks! I remember that early feeling about Dave Watson Danny. I think I may have been part of it.

Wasn't there a Red Shite link, too, schoolboy fan sort of thing? Correct. me if I'm wrong, but didn't Derek Temple sell double glazing? I remember a mate, I think, who said that he sold windows to his mum and dad in Thornton.

At one stage, he had a Post Office at Old Roan, over the road from the station. That would be about 70-71, when I worked at English Electric, waiting for a lift in.

See you at the next one either on County Road, The Northwestern or the Crown.

Dave, it makes me sad that many of our young supporters who are as dedicated as us have not witnessed great players.

Nice to see mentions of Derek Temple. I've mentioned before, I served in the Army with his son. We are still in contact and exchanged views over the weekend about the obvious. He is obviously very proud of his Dad.

Magnificent player… world class. Who can trump that?

Dave Watson (and his brother) played for Liverpool, then he got sold to Norwich against his will. We bought him from Norwich and he didn't do very well in his early games but got better and better the more he got used to our style of play.
We got excellent value for the money we paid for him, especially as captain and in the short spell he was player manager.

3 February 2002

Derek Temple scored the winning goal for Everton in their 3-2 victory over Sheffield Wednesday in the 1966 FA Cup final. Now 63, he sells cleaning chemicals for a firm based just outside Liverpool. He has been married for 40 years and has two sons

After a football career played out to the roar of thousands, Derek Temple's current workplace seems especially quiet, located as it is among the rows of silent warehouses that make up the Briton Wood trading estate outside Liverpool. Here, in a deserted cleaning company depot, to a backdrop of 'hazardous chemicals' posters, stacked wooden palates and a forklift truck, Temple mulls over his moment of Cup history. 'When you're one on one with the keeper everyone expects you to score,' he says. 'If I'd missed I'd never have been able to show my face on Merseyside again.'

....... [he then went to] non-league Wigan, where Temple played part-time and ran a post office and newsagents in Magull in the north of Liverpool.

....... I became a rep for a pottery company. But I had two young sons and the job meant I saw very little of them so I left.' Temple then found work as an insurance salesman, but that also took its toll. 'It was a very difficult business to be in. I was drinking too much and I wasn't very happy.'

....... Temple moved on to a double glazing company instead, where he remained for 14 years. 'Then, I saw a job advertised in the local newspaper - for an industrial cleaning company, British Flow Plant Group,' Temple says. 'It's a change, I thought, I'll have a go at that. I've been with them for 13 years and I am quite happy doing the job I do now.'

Temple sells cleaning chemicals. 'Good products - that do what they're supposed to do,' he says proudly. His patch is a vast swath of territory across the north of the country and from his base at Briton Wood he travels the length and breadth of it, selling, demonstrating and training people to handle and use the chemicals safely.

Temple's world revolves around Merseyside. It always has done - from the earliest days spent kicking a tennis ball about under the lamp posts in Dovecott, to today and his home in the small market town of Ormskirk, where he lives with his wife of 40 years, not far from his two grown-up sons.

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,642372,00.html

Though he was before my time, my dad was always adamant that Tony Kay was, by some distance, the best player Everton had during his time watching them (late 1940s - 2005).

As you also saw Tony play – did he have a case?

I grew up with my brothers having the team posters on their wall with all the trophies in front. I thought it was always going to be like that!!!

The FA Cup in 1995 is the only trophy I remember. It was
my season ticket years, I loved Kanchelskis, Joe Parkinson and of course Duncan Ferguson. Not world class but that's what we had.

All the time being a Blue, the one player I always wish I could see out there again tomorrow is Tim Cahill!!!

Tim Cahill!!! A little man, with the desire and determination of no player I have seen since.

He wasn't the most skilful, but scored skilful goals. He wasn't the strongest, but muscled bigger, stronger defenders off the ball. He wasn't the tallest, but beat 6ft-6in Defenders to headers.

Never once gave up, never knew when he was beaten, never backed down.

If someone said to me "What is an Everton player?" I'd show them… Tim Cahill.

Tony Kay was brilliant.

I don't know whether the recent passings of two Manchester legends inspired you, but it seems like a good time to discuss the greats.

Growing up in the North West in the sixties was like growing up in Disneyland. I was at an age when it seemed Granada television only covered legends. Champions, European Champions, FA Cup heroes, players like Bell, Lee, Best, Law, Charlton, Ball, Kendall, Labone, Wilson. Liverpool had a few good players too, but we'll gloss over that. Lancashire teams like Burnley and Bolton were choc full of good players.

I recently watched our cup finals in the sixties. I watched the 1966 World Cup Final as well. I was intrigued at how much the game has changed, the biggest difference was that barely anybody took a ball on the half-turn. Even the Brazilian team of 1970 were reluctant to pass to a marked player. These days you have to. Every team presses so quickly.

I did notice one exception when I watched the golden oldies. I wonder if Colin Harvey had studs on his boots or castors? He was taking passes on the half-turn before it was invented. He didn't run, he wheeled.

Bally was nicknamed perpetual motion, but he was also the greatest one-touch player to have played the game. I don't think either could have wished for a better player than Howard Kendall to complete the unit. Not forgetting, He was also our most successful manager.

Young, Dean, Lawton, Southall, Reid, Bracewell to mention a few. We've certainly had our share. Unfortunately they all belong to a lost paradise.

I'd better stop now. I have an almost irresistible urge to break into a Mary Hopkins song…

Well, Tony Kay was certainly an excellent player for me (see my post @26). He robbed himself of a great career, mind you he was MotM in the game he had a bet on.

Players are treated much more leniently these days, putting multiple bets on. Tony was banned for life over one bet!

I worked there at the same time has him, a lovely down-to-earth man to speak to.

My dad reckoned that, had events not derailed his career, Tony Kay would have played in the England 1966 World Cup side – probably in the place occupied by (in his words) the competitive but massively inferior Nobby Stiles.

Not sure how true that prediction was as, according to Wiki, Tony only played for England once (1963), though in those days there were not the same number of international matches played – not like the endless list of qualifiers that interrupt the league schedule these days.

Seamus has said in a recent interview that he can't be considered a legend as he's won nothing at the club. So that takes us back to 1995. I'm glad Dave Watson has got a mention on here.

I won't re-open the age-old Duncan Ferguson debate but what about Unsworth, if only for his quick-as-a-flash dumping of Villa to come back to Everton?

I thought Arteta was a great player for us, somehow running the game from wide midfield, but he jumped ship to Arsenal soon as his knee mended so maybe not.

My favourite post-95 was Tommy Gravesen, certainly a legend in his own mind. How many players leave us for Real Madrid? Last seen living it up in Las Vegas, I believe.

Finally, my dad's favourite player by a mile was Dave Hickson, the Cannonball Kid – an Everton legend without doubt!

I think we all know how the rest of that goes.

As for Dave Watson, give me Mountfield any time, shafted by Kendall who after having a heart to heart from Mountfield about a fit he had, Kendall reassured Mountfield it would stay between him and Mountfield, a few weeks later, Watson was signed and Mountfield allowed to leave.

Mountfield went on to play for Villa and was unlucky not to pick up another league medal with them, when Villa finished runners up, not Dave Watsons fault who went on to have a terrific career for Everton, but I would have stuck with Mountfield.

Slight oversight on you missing Coleman out mate.