Chances squandered aplenty as Everton embarrassed by lowly Luton

I have a question about matchday broadcasts. I usually listen to the live games via the Evertonfc website, with Darren Griffiths, snods etc).

I can't access it these days, does anyone know if they have discontinued the service? I don't have Sky so it's the only way I get any live coverage of the games. Thanks.

Abdoulaye Doucoure, Dwight McNeil, Idrissa Gueye and Ashley Young come back into the side with Arnaut Danjuma, Jack Harrison, Michael Keane and Nathan Patterson dropping to the bench.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin gets a start up front once more after scoring two goals in his last two games.

Hope we start well and get the win, COYB!

3-1 Blues and Dom to score again, methinks. 💙

I've had a devil of a time figuring it out, especially on the iPhone App.

On the Everton website, make sure you're logged in as a Member then, from the menu bar, select 'VIDEO' and choose the Everton TV section of the website, then click on 'Live'

The audio commentary of the Upcoming Match should be available by clicking on Listen Live. Only it's not available until ~5 mins before kick-off (even though it says 'Live Now')

Looks like Doucouré will have license to play off the striker as much as possible. Plenty of options off the bench.

Know next to nothing about this Luton team although I've tried to check out Barkley's contribution a few times. Looks far too passive to me, far too content for the ball to be 10 yards away and going nowhere rather than demanding time on the ball and trying to get things going. Hopefully there will be no change today if he plays.

UTFT!

How are we always so friggin shit???

Don't suppose we should be surprised really?

We're going to have the vast majority of the ball... and we're playing with a defensive, non creative, counter attacking second striker, Number 10, attacking midfielder or whatever the hell Doucoure is supposed to be.

Then we've got Gueye who is poor on the ball and offers minimal threat.

And full-backs who can't contribute anything in the opposition half.

It doesn't make sense. How are you going to break down a team that sits in deep by using the same players you use to sit deep and counter-attack?

I won't even go through the suggested changes as they're absolutely obvious.

Gana should be off and a real right winger on and Garner in the middle please.

The commentators on the OS (Snods and ?) called it spot on for their 2 goals but still reckon we should have enough to get the win. Hopefully their crystal ball remains reliable. Just need to be rock solid at the back and hungry for the opportunities that will definitely come in attack.

Time for Goodison to get really noisy.
COYB!!!

I couldn't believe McNeil's shot was going to do anything but find the far top corner and then we started to get men forward but how many easy chances can we miss. For a while Calvert-Lewin looked like he was just strolling around but others got into scoring positions and the question now must be if we can continue making so many chances in the second half. The only player not having a good half is Young.

And VAR! How long does it take to decide whether it's a defenders arm or big toe keeping the scorers knee onside!

This game should have been decided already.

I still think we'll win this.

Ferguson and Unsworth were wanted by many to manage Everton because they "Get Everton". Look where they both are and the clubs and leagues they were sacked by. We are where we are for a reason.

For those who actually were taken in by Kenwright because he's "one of us" — Shame on you!

Dyche completely out-thought, never even threatened Luton in the second half!

Awful conditions, dreadful scrappy game.

I wish the season would end now. Sell the club. Go into liquidation - and forget there ever was an Everton FC.

Because this Everton FC is unrecognisable.

Absolutely shocking and terrifying looking to how the season could play out.

Bournemouth game now massive, no more excuses.

We're like some fucking cursed laughing stock that is tortured to the point of death and then revived so they can do it over and over again. Fucking sick to bastard death of it. Watch the Devil's Spawn go top tonight with an outrageous fluke at Spurs who won't turn up.

Fucking Fuck Off!!!

Why are Everton always that team?

Goal droughts, winless runs, first-ever wins… play Everton and they all come to an end.

Nothing else to add.

We thought Beto and Calvert-Lewin together would be enough to secure a win but only Everton can fuck that up. Early promise of Beto has fizzled out.

To lose to a pathetic Luton team is totally embarrassing!

Progress, what progress??

As long as we finish 17th it will be objective accomplished.

I don't think 777 Partners will keep Dyche beyond this season.

Defeat purely Dick's fault. [No, I meant to spell it that way.]

Damage limitation if we beat Bournemouth next week. Did their keeper make a save?

Fulham, Wolves, now Luton. Fucking Luton Town. Wolves go and beat Man City, we can't even touch Luton.

Dyche can fuck off. Hasn't a clue. Any games we won with him were flukes.

hence "almost". Not that it had any effect.

This was must, must win, and we lost it. It's similar to last season and Southampton at home. We stayed up then, so we can do it this time around.

Embarrassing to be a blue. Embarrassing.

That's not going to happen often and today, Luton played a decent game by their standards and that was good enough. To be blunt, we never looked like equalising in the second half, it was dross.

Bournemouth is now a must-win. Or at least, a must not lose. Forget about mid-table comfort, personally I'd bite your hand off for 17th right now.

Palace PL 3 W 2 D 1 L 0 = 7

Fulham PL 3 W 2 D 1 L 0 = 7

Forest PL 2 W 1 D 1 L 0 = 4

Wolves PL 3 W 1 D 1 L 1 = 4

Luton PL 2 W 1 D 1 L 0 = 4

Everton PL 4 W 0 D 1 L 3 = 1

Sheffield U PL 3 W 0 D 1 L 2 = 1

Burnley PL 1 W 0 D 1 L 0 = 1

B'mouth PL 0 W 0 D 0 L 0 = 0

Table based on results against each other so far.

Gerry Quinn agree, I left it until the final whistle. Some awful stuff posted today on the Live Forum.

We were out-thought and out-fought today.

It seemed like it was decided at half-time to put Harrision on for Gana which seemed reasonable but in practice just meant we had a man permanently stuck out on the right wing and who never tried to be anything else.

Then we put a second striker on which also seemed a good idea but unfortunately neither he nor the other striker knew where each were supposed to play, a problem further compounded when Danjuma was sent on.

What seemed to be missing was somebody in the role Doucoure played in the first half that is arriving late in the opponent's box. I was left with the feeling that it was substitutions for the sake of it without being thoroughly thought out.

While we should have put the game to bed in the first half it is again a defeat in a home game we should have had won against one of the teams who are also relegation probabilities.

What a pity my first effort could not be submitted!

We as a team are horribly fragile and cannot string any kind of run of games together. Rare to see such a lack of professionalism and belief.

We were on top against Villa until Gana came on. Then we started falling back. The same today. Gana offers nothing. We need energy in the midfield and Gana doesn't have any.

We have younger players so put them on the park in their proper positions. We have Danjuma and Harrison who are both wingers so why are they both on the bench while James Garner is playing wide right instead of centre mid where he belongs?

Everton seem to suffer from a line of managers who appear to like making life difficult for themselves by constantly trying to hammer square pegs into round holes regardless of the round pegs they have in the squad!

Nothing else to add.

Play James Garner in the middle alongside Onana.
Drop Gueye, for fuck's sake.

not to absolve him whatsoever but in that, he is right. It's been the same for years. Of course, it's on him to fix it.

Can we afford to sack him? I'd say we cannot afford to keep him or we're fucking toast.

For God's Sake!!!! That was utterly unacceptable and embarrassing.

To shift the blame onto the players for what was a tactless performance and a terrible starting line-up is beyond the pale.

I thought we were pretty decent in the first half, but can't say we didn't deserve to be down, given how poorly we defended those two set pieces (and didn't bother to adjust to their outswinging corners). But we managed to claw one back, at least putting ourselves in good position to kick on in the second half...

And then... nothing. Dire stuff, scrappy, no fluidity, and no real ideas other than lumping balls into the box and praying Calvert-Lewin or Beto would get on the end of one.

It never pays to be confident, but I really thought we were in great position to build on the positivity of those back-to-back road wins. First time in a while I was excited for a match. Sigh.

Absolutely spot on. Drives us all mental watching a poorly managed bunch of overpaid imbeciles who claim to be footballers, managed by the keeper of the asylum.

That was embarrassing. Possibly the worst in Dyche's time. Every decision he made seemed wrong.

We had to break down a stubborn defence so we needed directness and pace to get at their full-backs yet he didn't start either Dobbin or Danjuma.

We were still bossing midfield and only Doucouré looked shit yet he took off Gana and we lost control second half.

Then he puts on two centre-forwards who just won't be able to play with each other and we go to hit and hope.

Now we are relying on delivery as we have gone route one and now he fucking brings on Danjuma for McNeil. Fucking bizzare.

Horrendous day at the office.

Everton are wide open from the first whistle and other teams even like Luton exploit this flaw in the Everton set-up.

Luton had far too much space and it was just a game of hit and miss which Luton took advantage of.

When is Dyche going to change the strategy and get them to play a tighter game in the middle of the park because this system clearly isn't working with the players he has?

Four home games and four defeats — all against average teams.

Who's responsible for this weak mentality?

I don't think it's Dyche, I think it's the players. I'd like to think that someone like Tarkowski could turn to other players and say something like, "Look, lads, this isn't working; we need to try x, y or z."

I suppose that would come under professional pride.
I've never met Dyche but he comes across as being well-motivated, why don't or can't the players get on board with this?

Lastly, for all you Dyche haters out there, is he responsible for a player making a mistake? No. Is he responsible for a player missing a goal-scoring opportunity? no. And so on and so forth.

McNeil nearly scored a cracker early on and we were treated to a close-up of him smiling and laughing. It was like he was so confident of beating lowly Luton. Shocking reaction from a professional player.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I thought we were really good for 20 minutes or so, it could've been 4 had some players not left their shooting boots at home. But defensively, shocking.

Was it Dyche who instructed the players to make those mistakes? Nay, nay and thrice nay.

Absolutely pissed off with the negativity on here. What a difference a week makes eh?

Gana, Onana and Doucoure never works in home games never has since they have all been here.

McNeil not fully fit; I'd have pushed Danjuma for an hour out there.

I'd have given Harrison the nod maybe in midfield or Garner.

Self-destruct.

It will be our home form that sends us down if anything.

I wouldn't say Arsenal are an average team, but the bigger picture is we have lost 7 of our last 8 at home going back to last season and haven't scored more than 1 goal at Goodison since last October.

We won't get away with it again this season, being that bad at home.

Arsenal one of those 'average' teams that beat us here!

Would love us to be that 'average'…

Dyche rightly got credit for Brentford and Villa but equally has to take stick for today.

I'm hoping it's just a bump on the road to recovery but obviously the home form is very concerning. He has to put it right against Bournemouth.

I still believe that we are likely to finish closer to 10th than 20th but confidence is both fragile and vital. It certainly won't sustain too many more showings like that.

Honestly, I'm not being confrontational or sarky.
But home or away the pitch is more or less the same size.
I'm probably being a touch naive as the tactical side of things bores me to tears.

Back in the day, Everton won the league in 1970, Liverpool won the league using 14 players throughout the season.

I have a horrible feeling that the modern-day stats, such as xG whatever that is, will become a big thing when the Yanks (no disrespect) eventually take over the Premier League.

Until there is 8 games to go and we are adrift 5 points from safety! Then, they would sack him. That's the Everton way.

Kunal, ideally not longer than 7pm today.

Dyche coaches, trains and picks the players. If the manager isn't to blame for the tactics, who is?

And if the players can't play together, that's because the manager hasn't coached them any way other than his one dimensional "sit back and hope to nick one" philosophy.

He knows that Garner is the most creative and also vigorous midfielder we have, so why stick him out wide? Patterson is a better fit than the ageing Young, and McNeil is just a one-footed luxury who loses the ball and does fuck-all to win it back.

Dyche, Woan and Stone haven't got a clue.

Any decent manager should be getting more out of these players, as poor as some of them obviously are. Dyche is not that man and the trigger needs pulling now not after we maybe scrape a draw against Bournemouth.

Desperate times for our club. Why change the team from Wednesday night? Playing Gueye and Onana in the middle of the park is killing us. Dyche seems to be the only one who can't see it.

Get Potter in till the end of the season with a view to becoming manager full-time before it's too late. If we go down, we will go down playing decent football at least. We won't get that with Dyche the Dinosaur.

Please give us our pride back, EFC.

They all rely on clues to accomplish something. The only difference being Sean Dyche – he really hasn't got a fucking clue.

Didn't Eddie Cavanagh of 1966 running on at Wembley fame say "Everton will always let you down" – and we were good then!!

I see people crowing "We'll do these 2-0 etc" pre-game and hope a responsible adult shares their home. It has to be self-flagellation.

A total mess in front of goal. Doesn't anyone want to score?

Why did the game finish with what is pretty close to what he should have started with? The stats show lots of chances but, let's be honest, they are all desperate attacks with wild crosses and shots.

If this team doesn't get an early goal or concede first they lose their heads. Terrible but I saw that coming a mile off. On the manager again.

Dyche picks the midfield that nearly relegated us for two seasons. The "no longer a force" Gueye and laborious Onana. They are a failure. Garner on the right is wrong on every level.

Doucoure is never near Calvert-Lewin if he wins a knock-on. Neither break into the box for the many crosses and chances which are created. Calvert-Lewin jogs alongside his marker. He should be losing him and getting on the end of more.

The central defence have ability. It's the zonal marking from set plays which is killing us.

All height across the 6-yard box. 5 - 10 yds towards the ball leaving the rear third completely unmarked. A circus clown with size 20 boots, silly trousers, bells and whistles blaring could honk the ball home. With our smallest on their tallest and JP rooted on his line, and frequently behind it, we are always going to concede.

Gutted by that Lacklustre Loch Ness monster.

Second half showed absolutely nothing, it's like the last two results were just a fluke. Joke of the league... again.

Once Dyche makes his subs, we look disjointed.

Unless Doucoure had a little knock, there was no point taking him off. Meanwhile, McNeil was useless all game, holding the ball too long and getting tackled.

Calvert-Lewin showed just how limited he is. He simply struggles to play with anyone and looked like he had no idea how to play up top with a co-striker, probably because it has only been on the rare occasion that Richarlison played there.

Beto looks sadly like a Championship slugger.

Harrison always looked better for Leeds when he cut inside.

We really had to avoid defeat today, but we shot ourselves in the foot.

I have to admit that I have lost patience with Dyche.

And Michael and Lyndon, something needs to be done about the Live Forum – it was ruined by a Kopite today.

This today was all on Dyche. It was dross and he set the team up poorly.

Jimmy Garner must have been scratching his head today. How to ruin a player. Watch him play brilliantly in 3 games then move him out of position. Dyche, you need to wake up.

You can't play a 95 year old at right-back when you've a very serviceable right-back who needs games to improve, and in front of whom you could have played... a right-winger (Harrison).

Like Everton, who have been saved for two seasons by the sheer mediocrity of the bottom of the league, Dyche's job is hinging on the fact that we can't afford to replace him, and that there's nobody who is worth hiring who will take it.

I spitballed the idea of Sam Allardyce on the Live Forum. What scares me is the possibility that he'll be hired with 10 games to go.

Never in my 71 years of life felt so glum and disheartened as the tragi-comedy of Everton goes from bad to worse to worst and beyond that…

And now we look forward to a "debatable" takeover by USA asset strippers. I have had enough of this gut-wrenching period in club history orchestrated by Kenwright and chums!

It's Luton!

Luton... for fuck's sake!!!

Fucking shite.

But no, he had to tinker, trying to be the smart arse when he'd already hit upon a winning formula.

He and his staff aren't going to leave money on the table, and the club can't afford to pay them off. So we've little choice but to accept it.

Garner is not a winger, should have started in the middle with Harrison on the wing. Patterson should have started especially at home.

Doucoure is not a No 10 and Beto and Calvert-Lewin are too similar together. Losing to Luton at home is totally unacceptable.

Sorry but time for the big decisions. Gueye's gotta go too.

The way we were playing I thought it'd be just a matter of time. Well it was really but not for us, for Luton!

They outfought us, out ran us, out muscled us and out played us. And the longer the game went on, the more shambolic we became.

Sitting in the Upper Bullens, watching Luton defend their 2-goal lead and defending their goal from our "attacks", was depressing as fuck!

I could rant and rave at their timewasting, feigning injury, taking forever to take a throw-in or the goalie taking a goal kick, But that's the ref's job to book them, add time on or warn them at least.

The ref himself and the linesman on the far side I thought were competeing with each other for who was the biggest knobhead!

But really, that was frustration at our superb ability to be outplayed by a team who many thought we'd whup! My comment on ToffeeWeb before today was that I never under-estimate the opposition and just hoped we'd play like we did on Wednesday night.

Well today, they were better than us. And we descended into a shambles once they scored.

I remember as a kid playing on the Oller and decided to join the underdogs, the Everton Kids. Happy with my choice in the early '60s; and saw us win 3 FA cups, the Cup Winners Cup, and 4 league titlesI look at our club, a noble history, then after our 86-87 >title, begin to struggle to win titles and cups; but still a team to be reckoned with.

But since that slithering, slimy, shifty prick took over the club on borrowed money, we've been on a slow, slippery slope to where we are now. Won bugger all, Lost the Kings Dock and season after season, more grief, bad luck and bad news! The day he goes away, very, very quickly, back to his London Luvvies, the sunshine might begin to shine on our club once more.

I don't see how we stay up from here. But then I didn't after losing to last season's no hopers at home (Southampton).

A new, deeply embarrassing low nonetheless.

There was more than one Kopite on the forum: Victor Yu and the Bosnian-Serb/Russian, take yer pick.

I'm getting a bit worried, but the only argument I find that would be valid is Harrison lacks match sharpness and just came back in the cup the other day from injury.

But he could've played Danjuma then, which gets him out of excuses and makes the scenario worse.

I've been going since roughly the same time (early '60s) and what you say is absolutely spot on.

The moment they scored, we lost all confidence and fell apart. Awful.

Tactically clueless from the manager;
Gutless and passionless players with no sense of urgency;
Statuesque defending set pieces. They had 2 warnings just before the 1st goal and didn't learn.

Aimless hoofing it up second half without laying a glove on Luton, yes Luton – probably the worst team in Premier League history.

This is a new low point for me from many lows over the past few years. I've reached the point where I'm dreading going to the game. It's lost any sense of enjoyment for me and it's painful.

Patterson, Harrison, and Danjuma should have all started that game. He needs to choose between Doucoure or Gana in midfield, not both and preferably none.

Not one for calling for the manager but I've rarely been impressed with his team selections, or tactics, so for me, I'd like to see a change. He has a fully fit squad there with options and attacking options which many before him haven't had. Can you think of another progressive coach who would have set up like that?

I generally think there's enough there to turn that squad into a decent mid-table side at least.

I started going a bit later than you, just a couple of games in 1969-70 and then onwards.

I vaguely remember you saying you would post some memories of the '60s if you ever got the time. I wish you would, mate, I need some inspiration from somewhere.

I would give anything for another Ball, Harvey & Kendall!

What a massive let-down this team is. Just when you think they've turned the corner, they dish up more garbage.

I said exactly the same. He should have kept the same team and even the formation, why change a winning formula?

I am fuming about that performance and lack of decent creativity. One step forward, two steps back. Just when we think that we are making progress.

I doubt the new owners will put up with that scenario, week-in and week-out.

Stop playing Garner wide when you have Danjuma & Harrison sat on the bench. It's not rocket science.

Dyche won't go though, we can't afford to pay him off.

What the Fuck??? So pissed off… I need to quit watching sports.

I was really looking forward to seeing Beto and Calvert-Lewin play together – don't know why after this… it's not going to work out.

Beto showed today why his Udinese were prepared to let him go - two headers he should have buried in my opinion.

That's three of the teams we have played in our mini league and have lost twice at home and drawn one away.

Young in front of Patterson I just do not get. Gana offers little, Doucouré and Onana are both very inconsistent – none of these three are creators.

Do we any fucking players who can cross the ball? It is of course possible we may achieve the odd upset, and we will probably need to in order to have a chance of staying up.
Bournemouth next – doesn't bear thinking about!

Luton deserved their victory – rubbish performance from us at home once again.

Gana was withdrawn at half time and whether you like him or not so was half of the energy he produces, then Doucoure was withdrawn who scores half our goals, three forwards were brought on but no- one in midfield to engineer any positive moves, we created one excellent chance when Harrison nodded the ball to Beto and with the goal wide open and hard to miss that's precisely what he did.

How quickly the manager? Team ? Deflated the hopes that we went to game with and I felt sorry for all the ToffeeWebbers I met before the game in The Harlech from near and far who had to suffer the misery of watching that game, see you next week, hope we are not coming back to watch any more of this dispiriting performance. Today was definitely ‘ Everton that'

In terms of players - Gana struggling but still a far better player than garner

Young past it but still a far better defender than Patterson

Branthwaite will be good but was mullered by their number 9 today.

I don't really appreciate being told on multiple occasions that I "fiddle" with kids and will get the crap kicked out of me, Lyndon/Michael.

As for the match, I'm just so sad and miserable. Dyche made all the right subs but not one of them worked. I'd like to say that it was one of those days, but it probably wasn't.

If only Garner had not missed that absolute sitter.

Dyche sees Garner as his 1st choice right midfielder & Doucouré as his first choice attacking midfielder. He won't change a thing in the league games, he doesn't have the imagination.

Just thought that everyone put a shift in but that our manager was out thought by Luton's. In Lockyear and Kabore Luton had the two best players on the pitch by a distance.

I didn't like Luton's time wasting but if I'm honest I understand it and I'm sure we would do the same given similar circumstances. It's up to the officials to put an end to it.

Just gutted and numb really.

Yes would have loved to have seen Collins in a blue shirt. We always sold players far too early. Even in the 60s and 70s!

He will stumble on with a rare win or point here and there but he's not up to the job of today's PL manager. The new owners will ditch him. They're not stupid.

I think that you might have gone a little too early there Nathan. Take a deep breath. His goals will come.

Luton fan on 606: "We're gonna smash it from now on to be fair"

We had everyone back ffs and he still found acres of space.

So annoying

I wish I'd stayed home and watched the golf, and I don't even like golf.

The football is predictable and dated. He's Chesterfield all over. I saw 10 years of him at Burnley, as many of you know my wife's a Claret. The football was awful to watch. Chant from the Clarets if winning was "Anti Football"

The central trio of Gana, Onana and Doucoure don't have enough talent.

Garner has to play central. If Dyche needs to go for that to happen every week then off he can go.

Dyche has overseen four victories from 13 home league games, that's not good enough, it will end our tenure in the top-flight.

Only one draw on home soil, and that was the last-gasp equaliser against Spurs.

Eight defeats in 13 games on home soil is relegation form by anybody's standards. Eight goals in total scored in those 13 games and all of the victories by a score-line of 1-0.

No clean sheet equals no victory, and usually ends in a defeat for Dyche's Everton at Goodison.

The club has to repair this damaging run of results at Goodison, somehow, as, so many people I met today, following the game, said what's the use of coming to the Burnley League cup-tie at Goodison? and quite a few more are contemplating not visiting as often for future home games, despite being long-term season ticket holders.

There's lots of empathy and sympathy shown to the travelling fans who go all over the country, and rightly so, but going to Goodison is becoming a chore in itself, and there are very few signs of things improving at least in the short-term.

One thing that Moyes' had, that many subsequent Everton managers haven't grasped, is the importance of taking points at home, even if those points are only solitary ones.

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Free speech doesn't mean you can act like a complete c**t, unchallenged and unsanctioned.

Today the crabs came back in their droves, filling blue Y-fronts to bursting point. For starters the team wasn't right. Opting for Gueye was a defensive and conservative move at home against Luton. He is adept at breaking up play but not really any use offensively at all. Unnecessary inclusion today.

Against Villa the team looked like it had balance, tenacity, energy and threat. All the good work there was thrown on the bonfire.

The most disappointing aspects was the second half performance. It was disjointed, lacking in guile and creativity. Too many hoofs into the box from deep positions, such a lazy plan B made worse with sloppy passing in the final third and a general lack of creativity.

Sometimes the last hood from deep works but at this level defenders often find this type of ball bread and butter defending. Eventually the team lost its shape and purpose and you just thought there's not enough creativity here to get a goal.

Bournemouth are a better team than Luton so we will have to be miles better in every respect next week. The good thing is we can be. When will we ever get rid of the Everton itch?

Today the crabs came back in their droves, filling blue Y-fronts to bursting point. For starters the team wasn't right. Opting for Gueye was a defensive and conservative move at home against Luton. He is adept at breaking up play but not really any use offensively at all. Unnecessary inclusion today.

Against Villa the team looked like it had balance, tenacity, energy and threat. All the good work there was thrown on the bonfire.

The most disappointing aspects was the second half performance. It was disjointed, lacking in guile and creativity. Too many hoofs into the box from deep positions, such a lazy plan B made worse with sloppy passing in the final third and a general lack of creativity.

Sometimes the last hood from deep works but at this level defenders often find this type of ball bread and butter defending. Eventually the team lost its shape and purpose and you just thought there's not enough creativity here to get a goal.

Bournemouth are a better team than Luton so we will have to be miles better in every respect next week. The good thing is we can be. When will we ever get rid of the Everton itch?

He should have tipped the header over the bar rather than flap at it after it hit the bar for Young to kick it against the Luton player.

You just know right then today is not going to be a good day!

We may scramble a draw against the mighty Bournemouth but Liverpool will take us apart in the derby. There is not one player I'd shed a tear about losing... should any other side be interested in buying them.

Still, the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock looks luvverley!

Their 2nd goal was criminal. Their No 9 runs around the back of Mykolenko who was already marking a man. He realises hes on his own and the ball was only going to him and he took it well but so avoidable!

Our fans don't help. Too many negative big mouths who prefer to rant about anything and everything rather than get behind the team when there's still 50 minutes to go!

We actually started the game quite well and created a host of chances that were all squandered. Our atrocious defending from set pieces cost us dearly. Tarkowski and Branthwaite are both good defenders individually, but we look defensively fragile as a unit.

The reaction to falling behind from our players was the most disappointing aspect. Onana (who was playing well until we conceded) became anonymous for the rest of the game. As did others.

Dyche made the subs many fans were calling for. Beto and Calvert-Lewin just didn't work but they weren't helped by the abysmal crossing from out wide.

In hindsight, it would've just been better for us to sub Doucouré for Harrison at half-time and move Garner into centre-midfield. There was just no cohesion in the second half and we created nothing.

He said he went under the name of various people while posting on ToffeeWeb so he could be anyone on here, he is a nephew, I think, of John McFarlane Snr so comes from good stock.

Doucouré and Onana are athletic enough to be useful in a rudimentary way as long as they ae balanced by a proper footballer which Gana is not.

Gana exists on the myth that the occasional interception justifies a total inability going forward – it doesn't. What point is served by winning the ball if you don't know what to do with it and your pals are almost as hapless.

Add in the other bizarre signing of Young and the outfield with the 3 plus Young is essentially 8 players.

I have no idea whether Dyche has twigged to this most blatant failing or feels no options exist but he will be sacked if he doesn't sort it.

I'm struggling to find a precedent of playing with 8 outfield players as a successful plan.

How the hell did we end up with Dyche!? He is even worse than Fat Sam. And I don't give a fuck if he managed to keep Burnley up for a few seasons. So did Tony Pulis with Stoke City!

Playing Garner wide is a waste of a shirt and just shows the limitations of this limited manager.

I keep reading we had loads of chances today but I must've watched a different game – just speculative efforts, I'm afraid, and I don't think Luton's keeper had a save to make.

7 home defeats out the last 8 games 8 goals scored at home since he's been manager and people are saying "Keep him".

Absolutely clueless, some of our fans; keep him at our peril because, believe me, there aren't three worse teams than us.

I started celebrating the obvious 3 points on Friday at the Bramley Moore, then in town last night. Easy 3 points, easy…

Could have been, should have been 3 up after 20 minutes. Neither goalie had a shot to save, I think, all game.

Bloody wasted day… Horrendous! Fucking Luton! Luton!!!!

I once got told on these pages that I should be a Wigan fan as that's where I come from — despite living and breathing this club as do my brothers and my son and so too did my dad until he died in 2003.

I used to think all Evertonians were class but that contributor made me realise there are fellow Blues who are dicks too, just like other clubs' fans. There's a minority who think you're not a fan if you don't live in the city or go the game. I never understand why we turn on one another.

On the pitch, I don't know what's going on?
Off the pitch, I don't know what's going on?

Some half-wit said to me today, change your team!!!

I'm not sure I can be bothered to read or subscribe to ToffeeWeb etc any more. What depths have we descended to when all I can see in the future is nothing?

Goodnight and goodbye.

Scoring a measly 15 goals – three of which came in one game against Palace – and conceding 30, earning the club a miserable 16 points.

The manager's fault, ie, Lampard and then Dyche, or is something more fundamentally wrong at Everton?

The away form in the last 19 games on foreign soil has produced 3 wins 8 draws and 8 defeats earning 17 points. Scored 20; Conceded 33.

All the defeats were inflicted without Everton scoring.

33 points from 38 games is going to put us in a perilous position if this sort of form continues for the rest of this season.

My glory years going the match were in the Moyes era, for fuck's sake!

What I'd do to watch a team that can pass and move the ball with purpose and deliver a decent final cross or through ball and a striker that can put a chance away!

Dreaming of the days of Pienaar, Arteta, and Baines playing triangles around the edge of the box!

We have been nearly relegated in the past two seasons, the quality of football has been dire. The fans are fed up with poor performances and a Jekyll-and-Hyde team that turn up one game in every seven.

Cut the crap, do your job, bollock the players, and get your tactics and team selection right. We've had fantasy with Marinez. No more stories, or you are out the door too.

Why terminate your account? Why not just consider your comments before posting them? And take some positive pills.

I doubt Allardyce did it… I could be wrong, and I'm not sure it would have been done often by any of Martinez's teams during the last couple of years of his tenure.

Some fans don't help by screaming for a new manager every time we have a bad result, although I'm aware that it's their right to complain when Everton continue to lose at Goodison Park to the mid- and lower-table clubs.

Carlo Ancelotti lost to most of these teams at Goodison too and it's why he ended up 10th after having his team near the top three during his one full season at Everton.

We became known as "plucky little Everton", even though most of our “success?” came about because Moyes was very adept at being a flat-track bully. But since he left, we have lost every bit of consistency that his stability helped us achieve; this is why the Everton job has become so difficult nowadays.

Is Dyche the man? I'm not sure… but when people start saying there are much better managers out there, then without disagreeing, I first begin to think about our current predicament and then I start thinking: Could anyone just come in and immediately start getting Everton firing?

The last Everton player to score at the Gwladys Street end was McNeil last season when we got smashed by Newcastle – relegation form, I'm afraid.

I for one had seen the signs, there is a team in there. I was apprehensive as we've seen it too many times. I thought we could have won this 3-0… We could have!!!!

It's players, it's players not taking responsibility, not being brave enough to take a chance, not saying "I'll try something different; if it doesn't work, at least I've tried."

McNeil is the only one who has that.

I like Onana, I've defended him on here numerous times as a young player developing, but I think it was him who should have made way today before Gana, before Doucouré.

The change at half-time didn't work. We were playing well first half even though we conceded 2 set-peice goals. The momentum was with us. The change, and subsequent changes, killed any fluidity we had and we looked ordinary second half.

Dyche will suffer from this, and rightly so. It's not good enough to lose to Luton in this way at home.

The derby seems like a pivotal moment in Dyche's time now.

And next match we are faced with the sequel 'Everton That II'. Another winless non-scoring side whose Christmas is about to come early courtesy of the most charitable outfit in football. If you're making a debut, have never scored, or are on an awful run, Everton are always the answer to your prayers.

We have always produced 'Everton That' results like today's, even when we had a successful side. It's something us older Blues have long ago become used to. What's worrying is that 'Everton That' results are now becoming the norm rather than the exception.

People talk about tactics / managerial decisions, but the bigger problem I see is players making simple mistakes / making very poor decisions.

I've been waiting to see if Beto and Calvert-Lewin could be used together (as apparently has Ian Snodin) but the problem reported by the commentators on the OS was that, when they were both on the pitch, no-one looked to play balls where one could provide for the other, with Pickford even lofting the ball to where Danjuma was whilst the two strikers were on the other side of the pitch.

Or even after today do you still bizarrely credit where our club now is under his decades of ownership and chairmanship as another of his very own "good times"? Today illustrating to the squad he's always overseen just how good one of the best Championship teams of last season is in terms of what's likely to befall us next season?

I'm not expecting an answer. The question is so stark-staringly obvious even to an amoeba. And yet he still has fans does he? Even in the shit right now engulfing us on and off the field?

Absolutely incredible, and the sort of brainless sycophancy that's always sustained the greedy leech to the cost of our club.

Feel free to comment.

I hate Kenwright as much as you, but I didn't see him pick Young or playing Garner wide right again. Or playing a 3 man midfield that doesn't function.

That defeat today is on the dinosaur of a manager and no one else.

But put his face on the screen and half the ground will applaud like brainwashed religious cult disciples.

Not entirely sure Kenwright has supporters.

I think people have pointed out our present and future financial calamity arrived with Moshiri and Usmanov nothing of this magnitude happened under Kenwright's unfettered reign.

Those same people recognise other issues can be laid at Kenwright's door.

Seems fair comment to me.

I will leave it to those who were actually at the game for comments, but reading some reports, it seems that Dyche reverted to the same tactics and players which have proven ineffective in previous other home games.

So it is back to, out of the frying pan and back into the fire.

Seven defeats in the last eight home games cannot be entirely due to bad luck, although luck always plays some part in football. It seems that teams, especially perhaps the lowly teams, now come to Goodison knowing that this must be their chance to gain a precious away win. Our home form has generally been poor for 3 years. While not alone in suffering a dip in home results during the pandemic, our club seems stuck in a permanent malaise despite changes of manager and a significant turnover of players.

Today, Sean Dyche used all of the attacking resources at his disposal. While it can be contested he might have used them in a different order, the bottom line is that several individuals failed to convert decent opportunities to score.

As for the defence, the first goal might be classed as misfortune but the second was simply the result of negligent marking at a routine set piece. The inability to keep any clean sheets is an ongoing feature of the Goodison malaise. The manager has work to do at both ends of the pitch.

End of.

What are your ideas to fix things?

We got two good wins, but Villa made changes in a competition they aren't prioritising and Brentford have an injury crisis. It wasn't a spring, it was just good fortune.

Dyche isn't the guy we need. Villa and Newcastle were around us when they made their last managerial change, and they immediately shot up the table because they're decent managers. We're not doing too much better under Dyche than we were doing under Lampard.

Also, on the subject of Ancelotti, yes we finished 10th, but the player's bottle went in the last 5/6 games when Champions League qualification was a possibility, Ancelotti knew he was the next Real Madrid manager, and there was about 3 points separating most of the top half of the table. He's one of the greatest managers that's ever managed. It's a tragedy that we couldn't keep hold of him.

777 Partners (Jesus, when has any club prospered under a hedge fund?) need to tell Dyche he has one game left. If he can't build some capital in terms of results, he's got to go. The best we can ever hope for under him is dull mid-table football.

So, our performances in those games were second to "good fortune" in our victories, I don't even understand why someone would post something like this. What is there to be gained from this remarkable insight?

Jason, how many changes did we make for Wednesday's game compared to say Villa?

The Blues will thrash Bournemouth this Saturday.

He announced that he alone had bought the club (bent fuckers with massive untaxed UK revenues may disagree on this, if they're honest, which they obviously aren't).

He claimed credit for the (failed) Kings Dock stadium nigh on 25 years ago (it's in a much better locale than our "saviour", Bramley-Moore Dock).

He personally invited an already world-wide well-known football shyster named Samuelson, who bogusly announced at an Everton AGM that he'd always been a Toffee before being destroyed by one simple question from a genuine Toffee fan, to oversee the sale of the club to God only knows who (and that's still Kenwright's opaque mantra on a good day for us supporters).

He then accepted financial (utterly unsuccessful) "accommodation" from, allegedly, Stallone, Earl, Green (Green – What The Fuck!) before at last latching on to a wealthy football-savvy imbecile named "MyDeary" or something like it.

He's made himself very incredibly wealthy off our fans' backs.

And yet us perceptive fans are concerned about relegation and perennially abject football whilst Kenwright fans still fail to question why the near-on expenditure of £1billion has reduced us to this crisis, Bizarre.

After McDeary's (alleged) acquisition, Kenwright's since punched (as the man with his uncontested, by him, 95% responsibility for the daily running of the club) a near £1billion hole in the imbecile's alleged fortune (and it's suspect as the imbecile is seriously now possibly to be exposed to all and sundry as a fraud in the first place).

Too difficult a read for frenzied Kenwright fans perhaps but the labyrinthine machinations he's striven to avoid in accountability to his very own fans is so redolent of Trump and the dickheads who support him under their fatuous "MAGA" fantasy.

They're dangerously brain-dead...... but they are amongst us!

Picking Mykolenko, Gana, and Doucouré is probably justifiable if you're parking the bus and hoping for a break. They play to a certain style and they can be somewhat effective with that style. But that's not what happens at home and that's certainly not what happens at home to Luton. And their limitations are exposed.

It was interesting to see that, when we actually changed players in the second half, the players had no idea how we were going to play. We just played the same style except with players who weren't suited to it and clearly had no direction. Watching Beto, Calvert-Lewin and Harrison quickly holding a meeting on the pitch to try to figure out how to play should be a complete embarrassment to Dyche.

Plan A is crap and it turns out we weren't even working on Plan B. How on earth were we not working on wingers and two up top when we signed a winger and extra striker?

I'm past the point of saying things like "we're not good enough" as I predicted pre-season that we will go down with games to spare. My expectations are pretty low. Now I just want to see progress at the club – some sense that we can do the basics with the limited tools at our disposal. But that's not what is happening.

And atop all of this sits 'leadership' who can't and won't make any big decisions as they have one foot out of the door. They'll see that result and performance and do nothing, and I don't think any of us can realistically expect any more.

This whole situation is an absolute embarrassment to the shell of a club that remains.

Polite applause is one thing (and my God we've had a wide range of spectrums on that one) and "frenzied" support is another. I'm trying now to think of any other instance in which we – the fans – have expressed "frenzied" backing for Kenwright.

Sympathy is not support; nor is respectful applause. I don't know a single Evertonian who supports Kenwright, although there are certainly varying degrees of criticism and opposition.

We no longer need "straw" supporters to lampoon and lambast Kenwright, Don. We never have. Some still try to make out rather bizarrely that they were once lone wolves in a desolate landscape pointing out Kenwright's abject failures while the rest of us naive fools fumbled blindly in our fog.

There are no brave and courageous prophets in this Kenwright saga. Kenwright has always been the object of criticism, contempt, and derision on these pages.

All you need, Don, is to write 'Kenwrigh't, nothing else. There is nothing to be gained by false claims to "fecking told yer so" when nearly all of us did "know so". Your band of fervent Kenwright brothers does not exist, Don. It never has.

If I'm missing something, then name names. Who on these pages are "frenzied Kenwright fans"? Name one. Just one.

He said, "I tell them, go out and change things!!!" — isn't he supposed to tell them how to change it? He says (persistently) we conceded sloppy goals – well who is coaching the players on what to do defending set-pieces?

Every corner causes panic in our box, and it looks like our team don't know each other. The marking is haphazard, Pickford is rooted to the goal line, and with everyone back defending, the ball gets hoofed up into their half and there's no-one there.

There were times today in the first half when all of our players were in our territory for minutes on end, sitting way too deep for a side who are at home and needing to win. If Dyche couldn't see that, then we don't have a hope of staying up.

Luton are going to be our rivals in a relegation scrap, and if they can take us to pieces with their strong aggressive play and containing tactics, then what will the Top 10 do to us?

We're so far behind clubs like West Ham, Brighton, Newcastle etc, who, before Kenwright, were always below us (even in lower divisions) that it's ludicrous how they get hold of progressive, attack-minded managers, while we get dinosaurs, novices and no-marks. I really do fear for our Premier Leaggue status, more than ever right now.

He's safe simply because of the ownership situation at the club. His record is dreadful. He'll take us down.

(a) Goodison Park is no longer a fortress and teams are not frightened to play here.

(b) Sean Dyche is known as a defensive coach – how come Luton were able to win so many headers from corners?

(c) How come, when their keeper was getting treatment, some of our players were discussing tactical positions that should have been known in training sessions??

(d) Why are midfielders not told that a goal can be scored without aiming for the outside of the posts, or over the crossbar???

I am sure there are many more points that can be made but the simple one is Everton were out-coached.

Villa don't seem to be bothered about the League Cup and Brentford had 8 first teamers injured.

Or maybe you're right and we're actually world beaters with a genius manager who'll out-tactic anyone for a win... after losing at home to Luton.

While we've had dozens of attempts and scored 1 dodgy goal against Luton.

We should be renamed xG United.

Amazing how stubborn managers can be in selecting combinations and tactics that haven't worked. Sean, this one is on you, pal.

I'm beginning to suspect he's Ricky Gervais in costume. This certainly feels like a mockumentary. In fact, that makes more sense than us actually doing what we do in order to achieve as a football club.

I know managers have media training to ensure they say very little of substance... but it's hard to imagine that guy:

1. Having any kind of actual tactical influence.

2. Being able to say anything that would inspire the players.

And if we judge on outcomes, he probably can't.

Woany, go and get the guitar...

In the meantime, their Brazillian club, Vasco de Gama, were slapped with a FIFA transfer ban on Friday for late payments on three transfer deals.

Everyone wants to blame Mykolenko for the 2nd but we had 3 defenders marking one Luton player which left him marking 2.

The biggest issue is the lack of quality in front of goal and lack of quality delivery into the box. Beto and Calvert-Lewin both occupying the same space was embarrassing, as well as Calvert-Lewin's lack of movement or anticipation in the box.

Until we become more clinical in front of goal, this will happen over and over again.

Playing to a style is a plan. Picking players who suit that style is a plan. Recruiting players who suit that style is a plan. Selling players who don't suit that style is a plan. Training and educating players in that style is a plan.

I'm not convinced anything at Everton is really planned nowadays. I think we just exist and lurch from one delayed short-term decision to the next.

Pick Idrissa Gana Gueye or don't pick him... What possible basis could we use to inform that decision? I believe that at our club it's a completely isolated decision. If you were thinking in terms of any kind of possible plan that the club might have, then you wouldn't pick him, right?

Mykolenko is bang average: he gives little in defence and almost zero threat going forward and needs shipping out in the summer, as does Onana – the guy is a luxury player who may be suited to a better more fluid footballing team, ie, Arsenal.

Cash in on him while we can at least get the fee back. The longer he puts in shite performances for Everton, the less we will get for him.

Lose or draw at home to Bournemouth and hopefully Dyche is gone. The fella is stuck on repeat and is a fucking joke of a manager. If he stays, prepare for life in the Championship. You can't have a home record like ours and survive – it's almost impossible. Wankers.

Everton seem to suffer from a line of managers who appear to like making life difficult for themselves by constantly trying to hammer square pegs into round holes regardless of the round pegs they have in the squad!

Absolutely spot on!

Playing Garner wide again after his performance in the middle and leaving two wingers on the bench is baffling

He fecking said it, as well as putting all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the players (each one of whom deserved some measure of blame) and refusing to accept even a tiny tad of responsibility. He loves to play the part of the gruff, straight-talking, no holds barred knife to a gunfight fella but this is shithouse avoidance/gaslighting.

That post-match presser was a fucking disgrace. "We" he says, but he means them, the players. They have all the analysis "you can imagine", he says, but like me the crowd were "frustrated". All we needed to do was "play". "Go on change the story", he says to the players. Gobshittery yellowness Dyche. Not, I changed things at half-time because I got it wrong.

Shithouse avoidance Dyche. And now the "story" is to blame. What the fuck are "hard yards" you muddy Baseball Gound floodlight failure where's the penalty spot near dinosaur.

Don't ally yourself with the crowd against the players Dyche. He actually said we "put it on a plate" for the players. He said that.

He loves saying "hard", "ugly", and "two-year-old-story", doesn't he, in that gravel gob?

There's a touch of shithouse about him, I fear.

I so hope I'm wrong.

New stadium. New owners. New manager. New mentality. Out with the old and in with the new. No more living in the past. Time to build a new future.

A very disappointing outcome in a game we could easily have won. I wouldn't call it a 6th sense but I knew they were going to score from those corners. I could feel it in the bones.

If I'm being critical, the midfield went absent for periods again. As mentioned, Mykolenko was overloaded for the second, so I won't be too harsh on him. And we had way too much of a straight line defensively. But once again, we had chances that we failed to convert.

AND PLAY GARNER CENTRAL MR DYCHE.

Interesting comments on the Brentford and Villa results being fortunate. I would challenge those statements having attended both matches. Brentford hadn't lost at home in god knows how long. Villa had Cash, McGinn and Luiz, Bailey and Tielamans on the pitch. For the second half, they introduced Watkins and Digne. As we know, Olsen is a decent keeper. Hardly a depleted team.

It wasn't fortunate. Both results were good Everton performances and deserved results against good sides earned through on the foot front performances. One of them battered the much admired Brighton yesterday.

Goodison appears to be becoming an issue for us. We seem to get stage fright and the support responds accordingly as opposed to the sheer adrenalin of the away games.

On Kenwright. I don't like the finger pointing at fellow supporters. Some didn't like it early days, others came to the show late (pun intended). Me? I was okay when he first took over from Johnson. A bit like with his sideshow Bob, Moyes, I accepted what needed to be done at that point in time.

But I turned before Moyes left and his time was up. He should have gone years ago; at the very least when Moshiri arrived, but that is on the current owner. How Kenwright is still there is beyond me. If the man has any conscience he would resign. He hasn't got any.

Well, yesterday is gone. Bournemouth next and then the short trip to that cesspit. We have had some positive performances and are creating chances. We just need to convert them and be more clinical. It will come.

Who knows?

We have no threat on the flanks. We have wingers in the squad but Dyche insists on playing Garner in right mid. This would be fine if we had over-lapping fullbacks but neither offer anything going forward.

We don't appear to know how to defend against set pieces. I don't know if they don't practice to defend them but it certainly looks that way. The first from the corner came just after Luton had free headers from two previous corners yet the players did nothing to sort themselves out other than point at each other. The second goal was criminal amateurism allowing their centre forward to be unmarked.

When we get a corner we might as well just tap it out for a goal kick to save a bit of time. The inability to beat the first man is shameful. Again, do they not practice in training?

Dyche appears to have no clue what to do if we go behind at home. Sticking Beto alongside Calvert-Lewin and the two of them occupying the same space and going for the same hopeful Pickford punts isn't going to work.

Players seem to play within themselves and don't ever try anything brave. Onana is one of the worst offenders. He occupies a small area of the middle just passing it safely sideways or backwards. He never turns or runs with it despite having the ability to do so. Is this him operating under tactical instruction?

Our away form since Dyche came in has actually been very respectable. Villa and Arsenal away games aside, the results have been good, and the points total more than adequate.

But Dyche is cowardly at home, to the point of his tactics being contemptible. Goodison isn't the problem. The manager is, along with the complete lack of imagination and courage he shows in team selection.

(I'll add, for balance, that the fact our players missed at least three complete fucking sitters yesterday did nothing to help)

The constant playing of Garner out wide affects the balance of the team in his desire to squeeze his favourites Gana and Onana in the middle.

Play Garner in the middle (he's the closest thing to a playmaker we have) with Gana to do the hatchet work and put Doucoure in Onana's role, at least he has a goal in him, Onana doesn't seem to do anything to affect a game.

Patterson needs to start ahead of Young purely for his youthful energy to get up and down the flank, he will only improve with game time.

DCL or Beto up top and Harrison and Danjuma in the wide forward positions.

McNeill can be interchangeable with Doucoure in a more No10 role as an option.

Onana has all the tools in his work box to become this fabulous player of the future, unfortunately he doesn't know how or when to use them, he is on the periphery of the game most of the time and although there were a lot of other players and the manager to blame, when Onana is like this we are playing with ten men.

I noticed he was doing his parading walk about after the game and was the last player to leave the field, I don't know what he was thinking, after that performance I'd have been glad to get off the field.

As you allude to, he's got the ability, he just needs to find consistency and stop drifting out of games.

I'm sure he will, but maybe it won't be with Everton.

Also your point about Gueye. Even at 33 (or 34), he works his socks off. He's never going to be a playmaker, but he breaks play up for others to retain possession and take the game.

Scratched record time. Play Garner central.

To your point about taking him off. It's most likely that Dyche's tactic of the long punt from Pickford or Tarkowski meant he favoured having big players on the pitch?

Another thought. Beto looks good for a hold up and knock on centre forward. But he could do with thinking back to what we were taught as 10 year olds. If you are forward, head it down. In defence it is height and distance.

As for Ashley Young. I praised him midweek. Yesterday, I don't know what such an experienced player was doing for one of their goals. He should have got that high and then we can deal with the second ball.

I guess it's difficult to criticise in the speed of the moment, but he gifted it to them.

Onto Bournemouth and break this season's Goodison curse.

Dyche may have also played a system where we wouldn't have created those missed chances had DCL and Beto been available.

So we stop going on about "should have would have" yielded 3 points against Fulham and Wolves. Facts are we got 0.

His tactics and team selections at home are extremely dubious. Doucoure and DCL were attacking the same ball in the first half, DCL and Neto the same in the second. Gana and Onana duplicating roles, fullbacks tucking in so near the centre backs that there's always acres of space down the flanks.

However, the players have to take some blame. Over 20 shots, one scrappy goal and the Luton goalie totally untested. Did he make a single save? Dire dead balls, corners, crosses, poor first touches. Terrible shooting. All down to the players.

It's pure self inflicted torture watching Everton.

Grow some balls lads, fight back when the terriers are nipping at your heels, or don't you read the press or supporters comments. The whole feckin world is laughing at you and relishing seeing us in a relegation dogfight yet again, maybe this time to come worst off.

You need to morally and passionately take on board that the only people who can score/stop goals is you, not Sean Dyche or the Blue Army, but YOU. Get a grip, feckin believe you can do it and maybe, just maybe, we may see things turn in our favour.You have shown you can do it, just make it happen with guts, belief and balls.

'Gana gets plenty of stick on here but to me he is absolutely needed more than what Onana offers, hardly anything after half time when his awkwardness and clumsy way of going into tackles was very apparent, taking the easy way out with his four yard passes sideways and backwards passing, although there were two or three long passes to Harrison but very obvious passes to make.
Onana has all the tools in his work box to become this fabulous player of the future, unfortunately he doesn't know how or when to use them, he is on the periphery of the game most of the time and although there were a lot of other players and the manager to blame, when Onana is like this we are playing with ten men.'

Surely the banner headline should have read.."Chances squandered aplenty as lowly dilutional Everton embarrassed by lowly Luton"

Thank you for the suggestion. The second 'lowly' was clearly a bad miss. Call it my Beto moment.

Erm... 'dilutional'… What is that...?

Risk of being washed away?
Reduced in strength??
The Solution to Pollution is Dilution???

That last one could apply to Dyche the Douche… I can't watch his pre- or post-match "noise" anymore. I think he's finally beginning to get on my tender and very frayed nerves.

Yesterday was a fucking disgrace the team setup and body language was just wrong. It's all on Dyche and his yes men.

We've lost at home to Wolves, Fulham and Luton. People say we can't afford to sack Dyche well we can't afford to keep him either. The more I hear him speak his pseudo zen tough man routine the more he annoys me. His bullshit bingo needs calling out now.

Sean Dyche that performance was a fucking disgrace get the fuck out of EFC now.

Obviously, the most intriguing question to ask was would Jarrad be staying or going? His dad said he wants to stay, as he loves being around the group of players that he plays with…..though after yesterday, and indeed, all our home games so far, that could be debatable.

But…….there's always a but………what he's been offered by the club regards a new contract, is not good enough, and so far two offers been rejected. We really need to offer him a contract deemed acceptable to him, because in a couple of years, he is going to be worth a fortune to us, should we eventually decide to cash in. I said to his dad, that Jarrad could easily be in the Bobby Moore and Franz Beckenbauer school of defending, because he really could be that good.

So come on Everton, give him what he wants, or at least something acceptable, otherwise we are going to lose him for buttons.

I would just like to say that everything that Dave Abrahams said in his post 250 about Onana were my thoughts exactly.

Also I wonder what Patterson is thinking he has seen the manager prefer a slowing 38 year old to replace him and when our 36 year old captain is fit he will continue as our captain which we badly need. So I think if you cant get in a side with a 38 and 36 year old ahead of you, then you should be looking to move in Jan.

I'm also not sure if Dyche only promotes leaders rather than followers Allan, because there was genuinely a few times that we never saw eye to eye, but he still invited me into finch farm the other week. (Maybe I've fell for it like a naive fool, and I'm defending the indefensible!)

I think one of our major problems is that other than Seamus, we don't have any natural leaders, and I think Howard Kendall had a similar problem before he brought in Andy Grey, and started playing Peter Reid, and these two players started to help bring out their own leadership qualities, into others?

I honestly don't think any manager will be successful at Everton, the way the club currently operates, so the day we are sold to people with a real genuine plan, can't come quick enough for me.

Points, points, points is all that matters, all of the other statistics, are meaningless, and of no use to anybody, whether teams are looking to avoid the drop or win a trophy.

If a team is averaging a point a game, it will constantly be looking over its shoulder with trepidation, Dyche's Everton, this season, is currently averaging 0.57 which if it continued for the whole campaign would result in less than 25 points. We need to put points on the board more regularly and stop losing matches so easily.

I thought Harrison for Onana would have been better, Gana, Garner with dacoure pushing on I thought he would have even given it 10 minutes after half time to see if we could continue the momentum we had at the end of first half.

I do belive its players attitudes and application that's lost us the points. Apart from Patterson it's pretty much the team I'd have picked, which should have beaten Luton.

I spoke to Jarrod's dad, very briefly, and my first impression was that he his just very much like all of us, a normal down to earth man, who looked absolutely delighted to be having a few pints, before going to see his son playing football, in the EPL.

We all see things differently, but Brainthwaith's agent, will obviously know how much wages he can get for him at certain other clubs, so Everton, will obviously have to match this, otherwise the kid will definitely be off.

Maybe Everton will also know how much they can get for him? Someone sent a Watsapp the other day, with a picture of Wayne Rooney, and the caption what would you give for another one of these right now? I wish we had never had him, was my reply, because he enabled an absolute curse to remain in charge of Everton FC.

It's all Wayne Rooney's fault, what a talent, but a talent that ended up helping the devil, absolutely curse our football club, for nearly another twenty fucking years.

Rob @ 269, out of curiousity what do think Branthwaite is worth and what do you think would be a an acceptable increase on his current 15k contract.

Also who would ultimately be responsible for pulling the trigger on Dyche? It can't be 777, because at the moment they have no connection whatsoever with the club, other than being future owners. It should be Moshiri, but it sounds he has completely given up, and wants nothing more to do with us. Can Kenwright, as chairman, be the person responsible, and if he is, would it also be him responsible for appointing a new manager?

Depressing times, and I feel Dyche will be here until at least the new year, and if 777 do get the nod, what is their knowledge on potential new managers, or will they stick with Dyche?

Lots of questions, but seemingly no answers!

Pickford
Patterson
Tark
Brantwaite
Myko
McNeil
Garner
Gana
Harrison
Danjuma
DCL

It's likely he won't be with us for the full length of a 5 year deal anyway. He will be a 50m player in couple of years.
I mean if the club don't see the value in keeping this lad, then we might as well pull the curtains down on the whole operation.

So having read the comments onto the game. Well, that was equally grim. I only listened to it and suffered through reading the Live Forum. I'm kind of glad I'm not watching much Everton at the moment, which says everything really.

I was beginning to think Dyche was a canny manager after the last two results, then this happens. He keeps playing the same defensively minded players/formations at home. Results more than suggest it's time to change the record.

Part of this is also on the players. So calls to 'sack the manager' don't resonate with me at the moment, but between management and players we have to do better.

I'm not suggesting playing Garner in central midfield will solve everything either. It's naive to think so, but Dyche has to do something different at home, and do it quick. (There were numerous calls to play Calvert Lewin and Beto up front together, well he did a bit of that yesterday and it didn't sound any better, Beto, whatever.)

If the manager continues to stick with his current methods at home, we could be in even worst trouble. He needs to show some imagination with tactics and starting eleven in the next match.

On the flip side, winning 2 of our last 3 games is very good form, both games we exceeded expectations and on both occasions looked much the better side. These were not lucky wins by any means.

It points to the issue of how we set up for home games. We set up conservatively with the objective first and foremost not to lose. With the hope that we are the ones who grab the all important goal.

The problem is that hard working lower teams like Luton can dig in, do their homework on set pieces and be the ones who grab the goal. Then we are left floundering trying to attack and win with a defensive set up.

Yesterday and going forward at home we have to be more attacking and creative minded from the off. Garner, Onana the central midfield two with Doucoure advanced . Harrison and MCNeil wider providing ammunition for Calvert-Lewin.

I thought Dyche bottled out by cramming the midfield using Gueye yesterday forcing the best creative outlet Garner out wider. It diminishes our attacking threat down the right too.

If the manager can be a bit more attack minded at home he will get the rewards. The motto has to be applied for home matches is ' Fortune Favours the Bold'. Or ‘Bald' in Mr Dyche's case.

We need the players selected to be productive at some point this season and fuck man, you would think Luton would be that opportunity. While we all say it was predictable it was still a necessary gamble for the long term. I totally see the wisdom of ‘get 3 from the most likely matches' but again this is also the chance to rest key players and build others up.

I got nothing for that second half response. The mentality comments address that and it is a drag that didn't leave with the transfer departures.

He won't be here all that long so give him a 5-year contract at £60k a week, more if we can afford it. He will fetch upwards of £75M, which his performances are showing now, in the next transfer windows.

If I was his agent, I would be pressing Everton for a huge lift in his wages. Then again, the longer Everton leave it, the less we will get for him and the more Jarrad's agent will be able to ask his new club for, and the lad will have his pick of clubs where he wants to go to.

I agree entirely about those three as our midfield. It just doesn't work. They don't have a decent tackle between them and working as a tight unit is negligible.

Sure when they are in possession they don't look poor and Doucoure does pop in the odd goal but whatever else they are is not good enough.

Dyche must take the blame. He doesn't seem to recognize this as being the crux of the problem but maybe he is under pressure to start them as big wage earners.

Luton just outmuscled Everton in that first 30 minutes which was scary and I for one could see they were going to score first but the second so quickly was a shocker. The left-back was totally asleep.

We wanted a right back for years and now we have a young athletic, attacking and promising one and he is sat on the bench for a 38-year-old who hasn't had a good game all season, gave the corner away, and his reaction was fault for the goal.

There is some technical ability in that side, Garner, McNeal, Harrison, Onana and Danjuma who a good coach should be able to manipulate a better game plan.

I must say I was concerned last week during the Brentford game when, every time the defence had the ball Dyche on the sideline was shouting to hit it long to Beto, it worked a few times but should never be a game plan.

Frank was getting pelters from the media constantly, and would be after this result but Dyche escapes criticism from the press. At least I could see what Frank was trying to do, maybe if he had the options Dyche has, things might have been different… who knows?

They're struggling and we're on our way out. Then they unexpectedly win a game or two and they draw us back in. Our hopes are rising again that maybe this time it will be real. and the BAM!!! Sucker punched right on the chin yet again and down we go.

A pathetic home defeat against arguably the worst side in the Premier League that is yet to win a match. Should we beat Bournemouth next week, no doubt we'll be sticking our chins out again for the derby. When in reality we know that Everton have about as much chance of beating Liverpool as Les Dennis does of winning this year's Strictly.

If baseless optimism won matches, we would be the Premier League runaway leaders.

The team that Dyche took over was lazy and unfit and, partly as a result unmotivated (apart from Richarlison, but Bill cashed him in).

The Brentford game, however, suddenly exposed a new fitter team, which successfully showed that energy and fitness could replace, to some significant degree, talent and defensive organisation.

The Villa game not only confirmed this, but showed that, when the old approach was reintroduced, everything went to pieces and the opposition scored.

The first 15 minutes yesterday were a dilute version of the Villa and Brentford games, after which GamePlan 1 was brought back. “Let them have the ball, defend deep, don't bother chasing their attackers and above all, don't harry the man with the ball.”

We aren't Man City, we aren't Arsenal, we aren't even Spurs. We have to come up with an alternative to skill, talent, organisation and managerial competence and hope that if Gana, Onana, Beto, Doucouré shoot often enough, a deflection will send the ball past their goalkeeper. Fitness, energy and pressure are the only hope.

I stand by my early assessment of Dyche, for which I've copped plenty on here:

1. We didn't need a defensive coach, we needed someone who could improve our goal output, and he's never been that guy.

2. He's massively out of his depth and uses his press conferences to desperately try to show how smart, analytical and in control he is.

3. He's an outright weirdo. And a bit of a nob.

I'll go a step further and say I hold him complicit in last year's transfer window that could have been so disastrous for this club. That's why we have him – he was prepared to defend the club's lack of willingness to invest in the sinking ship. In exchange, they gave him a big wage and delayed his appointment so he wasn't blamed for the lack of incoming players.

Dyche will never represent progress. He represents the very worst of this club.

Still, at least he stuck it to that sissy Calvert-Lewin. Told it like it is, or was (actually it wasn't – turned out it wasn't just mental when he played him for an hour and then we lost him for most of the season).

If he really wants to go to the top, playing every week now, at this age, will be the best thing for him... get more money from Everton, loads more, but get the game time and in 2 years he'll be getting £250k a week, he's that good.

He's probably looking at Onana's £100k a week and thinking "Yeah, I deserve more, which in fairness he's proved.

This contract situation could be more important to Everton than any other incoming or outgoing transfers for a long time.
It will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

I know supporting Everton is a never ending nightmare but do we have to resort to phrases like this about our own manager and players? No wonder they call us “bitter Blues”.

club run by prospective new Everton owners 777 Partners has been placed under a transfer embargo over outstanding debt. Brazilian side Vasco da Gama has been banned from registering new players until the debt is settled.

It seems the scouting team deserve praise for Branthwaite ending up with us and hopefully whatever happens the club will make a few quid - odds on, as others have mentioned, if he keeps maturing and getting better he will indeed be moving on - It will be to Man City I think.

I was remembering when he got Gosling or his agent to make a verbal agreement to sign later in the year before signing a new contract, his contract finished in July that year, Gosling promptly signed for Newcastle Unt. That delay by Kenwright trying to save Everton FC paying wages for about three months cost Everton around £3M, the estimated value of Gosling at the time, looks like the same thing is happening here or we simply have run out of cash.

Then they lumped it forward to no-one in particular. I thought they literally don't know what they're doing.

In the Premier League period we have done a few, six out of eight game losses.

Martinez's team were one, between December 2015 and March 2016.

Once again Everton lost six out of eight, between October 2021 to March 2022, under Benitez, Ferguson and Lampard.

Kendall plus Gabriel's Everton also lost six out of eight, between September 1993 and January 1994.

It's totally depressing how many 'records' Moshiri's Everton have demolished in the last few years and none of them positive ones. It's almost as depressing as listening to the commentary of the Forest v Brentford game, and their continuing expression of surprise that Everton managed to beat the Bees, we have fallen so far, it's totally incomprehensible.

Put this Everton side in the same position with 20 minutes to go, plus added time and we'd have lost by at least a couple of goals. Mind you from what I watched and it was more a case of me, flicking in and out of the coverage, Spurs seemed as clueless, as we would be, when facing the nine men.

We shouldn't be that suprised we lost again at home, its the same MO. Play a bottom of table team and you can chalk it down as a loss once more.
The defence for both of their goals and other chances they had was terrible, if we give teams those chances we are indeed toast.
There was no one near the ball for each goal, who the hell Mykolenko was marking only he knows for their second.

Dyche is right to criticise the players, they are paid a lot of money to perform to a high level, they failed at both ends of the pitch in this game. They had plenty of praise for the previous two results, but they don't deserve any for that game.

Branthwaite getting lots of love on here but he has a lot to learn and I cant say I'm overly impressed with his defence just yet.
Having said that all players make mistakes in every game, its when its costly its magnified.

Liverpool had three big centres defenders winning headers and blocking shots, but thankfully it didn't MATIP in the end

I'll stand by my comments on Dyche. He's a weird, weird bloke who loves trying to make himself sound like more than he is. It's incredible to me that he's the manager of this club.

Talk of Branthwaite being the next Moore or Beckenbaur are way too premature at the moment.

He was pulled all over the place by the Luton forwards yesterday.

I'm certain he is going to go on and be a very good player but at this moment he's got a lot to learn.

We haven't kept a clean sheet in the games he's played, but then again look at the shite he's playing alongside.

If Keane played yesterday and we'd have lost 2 1 can you imagine the grief him and Dyche would be getting.

No imo too early to be quoting figures of 75 mil for the lad.

Give him time to grow and mature.

Jimmy G starts in the middle of the park in a three man Midfield,with Onana and Harrison, Pattison must return at R.B too and tell Myko to be much braver too,as he plays it safe far too often,Tarks and Branners must keep their partnership going too, although I believe that Godfrey could be a better partner for young Jarrod long term!

Keep Beto up top with both McNeil and Danjuma supporting him with Harrison getting forward too for added forward support, although DCL has three in three,can we rely on him with his injury record?.

We need to start home games with a fast tempo,play from the first whistle like we're already a goal down,as our piss poor home form simply can't continue!... bollock players and tell them poor displays will cost you your place in the side!

So going forward as we stand,I'd play a 4-3-2-1 formation,with the starting line up as follows...

Pickford

Pattison

Tarks

Branthwaite

Myko

Garner

Onana

Harrison

Danjuma

O'Neil

Beto

Sorted!!!

Gana should not have been hooked at HT.

With him we controlled the midfield and created enough chances to have won two games. Without him we never had anywhere near the same control and created nothing. This isn't opinion - it's fact. The stats tell us all we need to know.

Only woeful defending of set pieces set us behind at HT. That was down to poor defensive organisation of the 4 defenders not Gana. By the way, whilst I feel for Mykolenko - what's happening at home must be terrible - he coughs up goals almost every week and will be replaced by Young as soon as Seamus is fit.

Weakening midfield leading to losing control of the game was down to Dyche. He weakened it further by going down to a midfield 4, further compounding the problem.

Dyche is a tactical dinosaur who belongs in a different era. That squad should be good enough for at least mid table but it's just not being prepared properly. At the least I had expected the defnce to be well drilled - but clearly not even that's happening.

We can only hope that there are 3 more under-prepared teams than us because we're stuck with him as the lack of leadership at the club won't sack him. Such a sad state of affairs that we continue to fall so far below the standards that are a minimum for clubs like ours.

Many have pointed to his terrible record in comparison to previous managers but I feel these stats are irrelevant as most weren't working under the constraints he has and has mostly been without our star centre forward during his entire tenure.

Secondly I feel he did a competent job in keeping us in the division last season as with the fixtures he inherited many thought it was an unenviable task.

Thirdly Sean has only now got a squad with options to choose from so with the two previous matches showing that we can be a decent side, yesterday's disaster is even more unacceptable. Perhaps those matches took more out of the squad than you would think. That's the only excuse I can make for him.

Fourthly on the whole we have looked fitter, have started developing relationships and our general play aside from yesterday and Villa has been pretty decent so it seems to me like the players are still on board with the manager which didn't seem the case a long way before the previous incumbents lost their jobs.

Finally it's OK sacking a manager if you have a lot of better options to replace him but as much as I like Potter he would be walking into a really tough gig and he is a manager that likes to tinker and play players in unorthodox roles, ie Sterling as a left wing back so I'm not sure he would get the entire fan base onside. whoever is in charge will have us operating at the wrong end of the table this campaign regardless.

On to Bournemouth and hopefully we see a big improvement from yesterday and three points are an absolute must now both for Everton and Sean Dyche.

I couldn't disagree more with that post I'm afraid.

1) We certainly did/do need a defensive coach. We haven't kept a clean sheet in the league all year. We're creating more chances than all the teams around us but keep giving away very weak goals.

2) Clearly he's not out of his depth. He kept a poor Burnley up year after year. He also kept us up last year. Few managers have more experience fighting relegation in the PL.

3) Seems like a likeable guy to me. He's honest and plain talking. Even if you don't or do like him I don't really see what it has to do with anything.

And then you call DCL a ‘sissy'? Based on what? His injury nightmare that's he's worked extremely hard to recover from?

I feel for Dyche a bit. Clearly the results aren't good enough but there can be no doubt we've been unlucky. In pretty much every match bar Arsenal and Villa we have created more and better opportunities than our opponents. Over time that should equate to good results and is a big step up from where we were with Lampard and Benitez.

The players have to take responsibility too for me. There's no way Dyche will have told Mykolenko to lose his man on back post for set pieces or for DCL, Garner, Gueye and Beto etc to miss very scorable chances.

Yes, Dyche got things wrong yesterday but we still would have won had individuals done better.

It's a results business of course and if Dyche cannot churn out more points then he will rightfully be under pressure from whoever is making decisions currently. But I don't think we're that far off doing a lot better. The XG models (which I know aren't for everyone) have us on 11.63 points which would be 7th in the table. If our finishing wasn't so diabolical that's where we might be. It's a game of small margins and if Mcneills early volley yesterday had gone 2 foot to the left we'd all be feeling pretty chuffed with 3 wins in a row and a team with better options than last year. Yesterday was bad but the performances on the whole have deserved better results. It's up to Dyche I guess to start making his own luck.

Stephen @ 322
As you say, the midfield wasn't the issue in the first-half, as there was enough football played for Everton to at least be level at half-time. Unless Gana had an injury we don't know about, it was a strange decision to leave Onana on, as he faded as the first-half wore on.

To resort to lumping it up the pitch, when you have decent quality on the wings, not world-beaters but decent, is again very strange.

Seeing DCL and Beto, occupy the same space, shouldn't have happened and the longer the second-half went on the worse we played. Can somebody at the club, make practicing crossing for an hour a day, compulsory for all the players, because some of the crosses on show yesterday were very poor.

For me personally though I've seen Burnley spanked so many times, the football was just too predictable, boring and low scoring, and as we all know Everton and low scoring is a theme.

Home games have become a problem, we need to get over that hump.

He's never managed a club like Everton. When I listen to him talk it's very clear to me that it's actually his 'story' he's trying to change. He wants to sound like a leader, a mentor, an expert in modern, progressive management. He wants to break from the view that he's an Allardycealike. But they're empty words - no substance.

As for him being plain talking... I don't know what you're listening to if you think he's plain talking. He talks gibberish. Long winding sentences that don't really go anywhere.

My comment about DCL was sarcastic (which maybe didn't come across) and aimed at those on here who loved him stating DCL was fitter than he thought he was. Which was either a clear dig at DCL's mental toughness, or another example of Dyche continuing to talk until a set of words eventually made sense to someone. Then, after Dom was played for an hour and lost to us for most of the season, he went into that weird statement about digging into every aspect of his life. Again, completely unnecessary and played into the hands of those who blamed the player rather than sympathising with his injury situation.

Players absolutely take responsibility. But so does Dyche - who is responsible for some of the worst home form I've ever seen. And now we're even defensively poor. What is he offering?

Now I never wanted Dyche as the manager, but I consoled myself with the notion that his football will be garbage, but it will be moderately successful garbage because just like Klopp & Pep, he has a clear vision of how football is played… or so I thought.

So what is Dyche's philosophy? And what does a Dyche player look like? If Burnley is anything to go by, his philosophy is get it forward as quick as possible, have two big lads up top, or at least one, and lots of balls into the box, especially crosses.

Now when he first arrived he was hamstrung because of the Dom situation and apart from Iwobi who let's be honest was a makeshift wide player, we didn't have pacy wide players to deliver the ammunition.

The recruitment in the transfer window pointed to Dycheball, with the signings of Chermitty, Beto, Harrison & Danjuma, but once again he was hampered by Harrison's injury. And then finally against Villa he was able to put out, well on the right at least components to make Dycheball work; a pacy(ish) wide mid playing in tandem with an overlapping FB, ready to deliver cross after cross to either Dom or Beto or both, all very yesterday's football, but if it works hey ho.

So onto Saturday and Patterson & Harrison dropped in favour of Young & Garner, so no overlap, no quality crosses, in fact no Dycheball, just the inevitable huff & puff and aimless ball lumped up for Dom to win. The shithousery he showed against a severely limited side was painful to watch, and before someone mentions xG, it's a meaningless statistic that doesn't get you points.

I really don't like sacking managers because it doesn't get you anywhere, although anyone who points to Villa sacking of slipper has got a point. But he's living on borrowed time, in the 50 years I've been watching Everton I cannot remember such a poor run of results. The only thing that's saving him is we probably can't afford to sack him/

It's not bad luck that great opportunities keep falling to a midfielder who can't strike a ball. It's not bad luck that puts him in that position - it's the selection of that player and the role he's given.

There's the basis of a team at Everton right now. You could imagine the Joe Royle we got in 94 looking at this side and thinking there are strengths to play to. And what he did back then is still underrated in my view - it wasn't just Dogs of War and nothing else. He identified attacking strengths and played to them. Players like Limpar and Hinchcliffe were suddenly playing to their strengths, not their weaknesses.

And what do we have? A lineup that looks designed to sit deep, keep it tight, and nick one... at home to a Luton side who don't want the ball. It's just embarrassingly poor.

Similarly with Onana. When he gets the ball he seems to control it instantly albeit a lot of them are not that difficult but if there is an opposition player near him then he quickly lays it off to someone in space with time which, this being Everton, is more often somebody wide or behind him as that's the way he's facing but he is usually there to take a pass. It has to be said though that he doesn't seem to get forward into the opposition penalty area as much as he did in his earlier games and with usually only one up front we need not just Doucoure doing it.

When you say he's never managed a club like Everton, what do you mean? I presume you mean the history and the expectation? Well with all respect that counts for squat diddly right now. At the time of writing Everton is a club with huge debts, no money to spend, a pretty poor squad and a recent history of back to back relegation battles. And Dyche has absolutely dealt with that situation before.

Of course Dyche has to take responsibility and he will absolutely get the bullet and deservedly so if we continue to get poor results. But when you ask what he offers I'd say he has turned us from a team under Lampard which conceded loads of chances and didn't create many to a team that this seaon has created far more chances than we have conceded. Yes, that counts for nothing in the league table of course but it is an indicator of better performances and underlying improvement. It's up to him to turn those performances into results.

It actually reminds me a bit of Marco Silva's last season, where we were usually creating more than our opponents but kept conceeding silly goals, often from set pieces. I really hoped Silva could turn it around but he didn't and ultimately paid the price. Patience is rare in football, especially amongst Everton fans, and though the lack of an involved decision maker on the board might buy Dyche a bit more time than he'd normally expect we have a tricky run coming up after Bournemouth so he needs to find a way of making his own luck.

This season is yet another season where survival is the only target and I honestly think that Dyche will achieve that (if given the chance).

Neither of them overlap and whenever Mykolenko does he times his run too early and has to pass the ball back. Young hasn't got the legs to overlap.

Defensively it's easy to point out Lutons second goal as to why Mykolenko isn't good enough but i'd argue he had one of his better defensive performances. Young can't defend. At all. So far with us he's averaged 1 successful tackle out of 5. 20% success rate tackling is expected from a striker not a fullback.

Overall they don't create space for our wingers, don't overlap, can't pass, can't cross, can't defend and simply don't contribute anything. If you don't want your full backs to attack they need to be defensively excellent. If they're weak defensively they need to be atleast useful going forwards. Ours are neither and when teams sit back and our high press is no longer viable we start using our wingers to produce crosses and fullbacks are essential in this by making runs to create space or overlapping to get behind. Mykolenko attempted to overlap but just passed backwards and young didn't attempt it at all.

I'd actually consider Garner at RB. I know he's flavour of the month and everyone now believes he's our best CM after one good match against Villa but I reckon Dyche will keep Gana and Onana there and Garner at RB with Harrison ahead of him could make a decent right flank potentially. Garner has good energy and would get up that flank effectively on the overlap, he's got a great cross and takes care of the ball better than Patterson. I think Young definitely needs dropping against Bournemouth.

I remember many hailing the signings of these two full backs as a a great piece of business, as the club used the fee from Digne to sign them. Digne was branded as over the hill in January 2022, but has miraculously revived his career at Villa.

The only downside to this argument was that Patterson and Mykolenko have proven themselves to be 1) unable to master basic defensive positioning 2) weak in the air 3) unable to react to runners finding the gap between them and their centre back 4) completely ineffectual in attack.

They are without doubt our worst full-backs since Earl Barrett and Terry Phelan occupied those positions.

Brent, neither Patterson or Myko can cross a ball, low or high.

There is one other thing that seems obvious but also seems a much deeper issue to sort out to me. Whoever is manager and whoever is playing, we have been unable to string together a decent run of results for years now. How many times under various managers/players have we seen a good win followed by two or three poor subsequent displays?

I can't really remember the last time we had a proper long run of good performances and good results. I know we won twice very recently but I'm talking about longer stretches when you go unbeaten for a lot more games than that and pick up points regularly.

This is not someting that has just happened under Dyche or with the current squad - so I guess the question is, what's the root cause? Is it the overriding culture at the training ground and club which somehow breeds complacency/inconsistency?

The problem as ever was the following recruitment. If memory serves me right then Brands had been sacked at that point and so we were making that decision with Benitez on the way out and no DOF. It was likely Kenwright who made these picks. Patterson and Mykolenko especially were overpriced and not the best additions.

Well, actually, thats not quite true. I had a good day overall starting with a full English at Maggie Mays with my posh son and then meeting the TW lads in the Harlech, were I arrived to early (11.30 ish) and peaked too soon. My apologies to the people in row Q, upper Glwadys, for the number of times I needed to go for a p.

On that note, whoever usually sits in the seat I had, you have my sympathies. The regulars you sit in front of make some of those beauts on the live forum seem like rays of sunshine. There was a lad near me who said he was absolutely sick of them, every week!

I say a good day overall as I think I may be getting immune to the Blues doing this. In the Harlech early on I was sat with a bunch of Welsh and Yorkshire people who were predicting all kinds of score fests - 4-0, even 5-0 - (to us) and I got that quiet nagging feeling. I said more than once I hope its not an after the Lord Mayors show type of performance and lo, it was. The two Luton goals were absolute sickeners and both should have been defended comfortably. Personally I thought Young should have dealt better with the first but the header in was forecast by two or three previous attempts. Myko was the nearest to the second but he had two men to look after. I don't think he had a good game but I still think he'll be ok. A quick thought on Pickford. He was waving his arms about at his defenders from the start and I got the impression he was pissing them off royally. He seemed to cause panic rather than instill calm. But its this reluctance to play Garner in his obvious, and sorely needed, role in the middle that I don't understand. He's wasted on the wing. Onana? I just don't think he wants to play for us. IF he's as good as they say then he's playing within himself. Just enough, but not game affecting. Harrison came on and looked good but no-one was on his wavelength. Beto was very disappointing. I think people are giving him an easy time with for those two headers - he should have buried, one, probably both!

Overall, towards the end, I still thought we'd grab another one but our midfield play was so painfully slow - "why take one touch when two or three will do" seems to be the mantra when a bit of sharpness was needed. Final thought from me - remember when we went crazy and bought three number tens? Why can't we even find just one these days please?

Maybe we should have a secondary statistic and mark the xG out of 10, and what you'll find is that most of the 'chances' would get a nul point by our panel of judges.

How many quality crosses and passes did we witness as opposed to hoofs which Dom still managed to get under control? I could be wrong but I can't recall any, just a succession of hit and hope.

'The xGs right up there' so funking what, my eyes not some random statto tells me otherwise.

"Poor team selection from Dyche moving Garner out of the centre after two decent performances there. Also, no width! Harrison and Danjuma benched. Gueye often furthest forward! Poor finishing yes, but one dimensional, trying to thread passes through the centre until Harrison came on. Dyche can also change the story by sticking with a winning formula."

Idrissa Gana Gueye supposedly can't pass, at least that's according to many posting on here.

Strange then to read on the Everton page at The Athletic that he is the 'Team Leader' for – guess what – Passing Accuracy: 88.5%

He can't fucking shoot — that's what drives me to drink!

And you are right his passing is generally very good but he gets jumped on for one bad one.

I also know he brings energy and stops the opposition from playin with constant challenges and covering of ground. He has energy and does not hide. He was not bought for his shooting ability.

Until we sign a better version of Gueye he is a must. Second half against Luton, without him, we were clueless.

GUEYE AND GARNER are our essential 2 centre midfield players.

I know what Gueye is good at a consistent level. What I am clueless about is what Onana does consistently. It is definitely not tackling passing covering shooting. What the hell is it that he is good at on a regular basis, except maybe drifting in and out of a game?

A nice passing move that resulted in Mcneill's volley just wide.

A lovely pass from Doucoure that cut through their defence to Garner that he then curled just wide with his left.

Nice passing into their box that Doucoure then layed back for Gueye who really should have done better from 15 yards out under minimal pressure.

A lovely cross from Mcneill that found Garner at the back post that he put onto the bar.

A perfect deep cross from Mykolenko that DCL looked to be all over but then just headed at their keeper.

A nice backheel in the box from (i think ) Mykolenko that Onana curled just wide.

We definitely created some decent openings. As we have all season. I don't quite understand people's refusal to acknowledge them (or deep hatred of Xg) but I guess it comes from those who have decided that Dyche needs to go and don't want to hear or see any evidence to the contrary.

The results have not been good enough and ultimately that's all that really matters of course. And the results will decide dyche's future. But there can surely still be room for some nuance and looking at the underlying performances?

Gana does not have the possession skills for an 8 but can be effective if he has an outlet when he runs out of ideas. Dropping a forward deep reduces the midfield space further pressuring possession. There is no easy answer until Harrison is a regular.

And playing Patterson without Garner has not helped the kid settle. He needs Harrison in front.

The only thing I can say is that against Villa was the first time the midfield looked balanced offensively and defensively. Against Luton it wasn't our biggest issue though.

When a team sits back and throws a load of men behind the ball (we should know we do it most games) you either need a creative player in the middle with strikers making runs to open up the gaps between defenders which we don't have or you need good width to get around the back. That's where overlapping fullbacks come in to it. Patterson is the best at it out the current three and he was benched so you then rely on your wingers and we left ours on the bench to get Garner in the team.

Danjuma/Harrison on the wing, Garner replacing Idrissa and Patterson replacing Young would've changed our dynamic. Instead what we had was Mcneil coming inside for some reason, Garner doing the same and the midfield passing it to each other looking for width and having no options so eventually going backwards or a hopeful hoof into the box. Luton had a load of brutes at the back and this was exactly what they wanted.

Sad reality of it was Luton got their tactics right and we got it wrong. Keeping winning team from Brentford seems smart on paper but when you're playing a different style of team we needed to change our tactics accordingly and sadly Dyche was found majorly lacking and going 4-4-2 wasn't the answer when we already had too many players around the middle and nobody getting the ball to them.

It's goals at one end and defence at the other that win games.

If we go down with the best XG in the league what the fuck does it matter how many chances we create! Its a flawed stats system as a blocked shot on target from 35yds goes on the XG stats.

If Mykolenko or Gana is through on goal it may count as an xg but Evertoians would probably know he's not expected to score.

We were not too bad first half, we defended set pieces terribly, which is meant to be one of dyches strong points.
The change at half time came too soon. We should of let the team see if they could carry the momentum we had at the end of the first half in to the second tighten up at set pieces and we would of won I think.
We just lacked ideas second half.

For all Ganas loose passing he still tackles, he carries the ball too, he is not just sideways. Imo he should of stayed on. Its onana I think needs a rest.

If Mykolenko or Gana is through on goal it may count as an xg but Evertoians would probably know he's not expected to score.

We were not too bad first half, we defended set pieces terribly, which is meant to be one of dyches strong points.
The change at half time came too soon. We should of let the team see if they could carry the momentum we had at the end of the first half in to the second tighten up at set pieces and we would of won I think.
We just lacked ideas second half.

For all Ganas loose passing he still tackles, he carries the ball too, he is not just sideways. Imo he should of stayed on. Its onana I think needs a rest.

Wrong Gramps! So wrong.

- The midfield were poor in the 1-3 home defeat against Fulham last season in Garners first game with Gueye but you do need to play a few games together to form any partnership.

We also got beat 0-3 at home to City, but we had defensive problems for that game and the opposition was an unstoppable City.

In the other games were Gueye and Garner have played together in centre mid they have played well together and also helped to get Doucoure playing well. Palace away 0-0, Leicester away 2-2 and Brighton 5-1. They also hit it off immediately last week against Brentford when Onana went off and Garner moved into the middle.

So I can't agree with you about us getting overun in midfield when they play together. The facts do not back this up. And it's never just the two it is three with Doucoure.

And just for emphasis, you should understand that those xG models are subjected to integrity tests. They check the predictions versus realized outcomes. The fact that journos take up the term in their writing tells you how well those models are accepted. That doesn't mean you have to accept it but look at the standing of those who do. Why would they risk pushing a dodgy stat in their articles?

I might be wrong but I see Onana as a complete spanner in the works. He can do a neat pass here and there, a good tackle here and there (that shot v Villa was almost goal of the season) but he just does not do it consistently. He is good when the going is good he is poor when we are up against it and hides.

That is how I see it.

Forgot to mention VAR going against Liverpool, bleedin' never seen that coming!!

Away from home or against top teams I would be happy with the team that started against Luton or the one that started against Villa.

But some fans see Gana as the problem at home while others think it's Onana. Personally I would like to see Garner tried in Doucoure's role as I am a fan of both the aforementioned and feel they provide a solid base.

Doucoure is great at running on to things when he has space and his power and athleticism make him vital in away games. But when a team sits back like Luton did on Saturday it totally negates his attributes. I think Garner could be a little menace in there as well as having a little bit of guile. In case we should still struggle to break teams down we still have the option of Danjuma from the bench. That would be his preferred role giving him freedom to arrive in those little pockets with his directness and shooting ability.

Doucoure could then be deployed as an 8 with Onana sitting should we still need a goal. I feel Dyche really needs to use the squad better as with the likes of Branthwaite and Garner it took an age for the penny to drop and he isn't at Burnley anymore so needs to use his resources more diligently and be more proactive.

I'm really not sure how I'd feel if so….

It's the basis of science, insurance, financial services, increasingly retail and many other walks of life. Generally, those with access to the best / richest sources of data and the ability to understand what to do with that data have a huge competitive advantage.

Sport is no different which is why it is already heavily utilised. xG is a part of that – and low and behold, Pep Guardiola's positional play tactics play into.

And yes, clubs that we all like to admire, like Brighton, also use statistics (borrowed from the gambling industry) extensively to outperform their resources – something made much easier by clubs who prefer the "my eyes know best" approach.

xG doesn't make a bit of difference to the league table at the end of the season, but that's not the point of the stats. The point of the stats is to back up an opinion or debunk a myth with evidence.

I guess the evidence-based angle is why it doesn't go down well in the heavily emotive world of football – where the manager will always be wrong tactically if we lose (regardless of how we played / how the opposition played etc).

One of the reasons many fans don't like statistics is due to the players believing they have done well, even in defeat, as exemplified by Iwobi's utterances in a recent interview:

Iwobi said: “When I came through the academy (at Arsenal) I played in numerous positions. I feel like my favourite, or the position where I get my most ‘stats', is probably in midfield, as a No 8.

Players are obsessed with performance stats and quite possibly it's the reason why we see so many sideway and backward passes, as it helps them to increase their personal statistics. If they ended up on the losing side, how can they believe that they played well?

“All gone” have I missed something???

Sorry, my mistake, but I can't see Dyche winning a trophy, and don't see him lasting much longer if things don't improve.

Even before Brentford and Villa, I was firmly in the "give him time" camp but I'm really not seeing any improvement despite, in my opinion, a decent team in there. Saturday was demoralising.

Get him out now because he will take us down.

The analysis of trends in the financial sector simply does not relate to football. The data in finance and insurance cannot manipulate itself. Your Iwobi quote demonstrates quite clearly that in football it can.

There is a place for xG but I would suggest that Pep uses his eyes and intuition and ability to motivate much more. There's a bit of smug ageism on this thread that is quite amusing in the complete lack of awareness of those who perpetrate it.

I have the utmost admiration for Robert and Sam but, with regard to football, I believe that suspicion of data is quite healthy.

A player tries a back heel, a clever pass to a team mate who doesn't read it. The crowd get on his back and he resorts to hiding; passing sideways, backwards. Best pass completion? So what?

Good post @ 355, Sam. Eyes alone don't work either.

As for Onana needing a rest... jeez, the season has just fucking started! Just show some bottle and heart, for fuck's sake!

I think using your eyes, watching a player, is more useful than reading stats, how many passes, shots, tackles, dribbles etc. in my opinion.

I saw a video recently made by a scout who was interested in a young player, concentrating on his good points. He was recommending this player to the club he worked for.

It showed the lad playing in a game, League One, doing his runs down the wing, tackling back, dribbles down the wing followed by quick powerful and accurate centres right across the goal, using his pace to get back and win tackles after giving his opponent a few yard starts.

I understood that video perfectly. No, it didn't show his bad points but he was making and showing the video to make the point that the lad was a good player and worth buying. Actually, it wasn't one game but a composition of a few games.

"Even in defeat as exemplified by Iwobi's utterances in a recent interview:"

I'm guessing Iwobi didn't make those comments specifically in relation to a defeat.

I have clapped the team off when we have lost, but that's only because we have put in a good performance. Have these fans fallen asleep during the game or am I missing something?

Just intrigued to know why.

Judgement by eye = 99%

Judgement by computer-generated stats = 1%

Definitely meaningless over a single game but maybe slightly more informative over many matches.

Stats have a role to play but the idea that players and managers can't see beyond the simple numbers is ludicrous.

Pete, 'meaningless' is harsh but I think I get your perspective and it is reasonable.

•Chances created

•Good chance

•Excellent chance

• Gana chance = no chance.

He's our best tackling midfield player.

Winning the ball back.

Best in leauge at these stats.

Surprised to see most completed passes for us too.

This is why he's a must while he still has the legs.

Ban him from shooting but we looked terrible when he left the field.

Bournemouth match on Saturday is crucial we get 3 points. The players need to take their chances and work harder or they will be working under another manager sooner rather than later.

People's eyes will always be the best source of information but sometimes the eyes will see what they want to and this is where (the right) statistics can come in to challenge or support those pre-existing narratives.

Andy Crooks draws an interesting point about ageism though it may have plenty to do with personality and philosophy as well.

Like them or hate them statistics are a major part of football nowadays and all big clubs use them extensively for recruitment, performance analysis and opposition scouting. People can shout ‘nonsense' into the wind all they want but xG and the ilk aren't going away!

If someone told me Mykolenko has a high pass completion percentage I wouldn't be surprised. He gets the ball in decent positions and turns straight back because he knows he can't do anything more. He stops lots of our staffing positions through his high passing percentage.

xG is another that means nothing on its own. If DCL misses a couple of one on ones then that goes on the xG stats. If Gana has 10 shots from range that goes on too. But creating one on ones for DCL is the kind of football that wins games. Having Gana taking long shots is a real problem; it indicates an issue with our setup that contributes to us losing games.

If Gana plays it should be to do the job he's good at. Likewise for all of them.

But what we've got is a team with no definitive style, being rolled out regardless of the opposition. The selection against Luton was defensive (stay at home full backs, Gueye, Doucoure, Garner tucking in to fill the centre) against a struggling team.

There shouldn't be any celebration (or defence of the performance) that we managed to have plenty of the ball and some half chances... that's exactly what Luton would have hoped we would have.

Our possession was pointless. Literally. Any sustained possession in that team selection is pointless. The ball will reach too many players who aren't going to create anything worthwhile. The stats can't understand that.

Also, the desire for breakouts is interesting. I've long been critical of end of match possession comparisons. Once a team goes ahead they often concede possession diluting the significance of that statistic.

Although a chance is a chance and a goal is a goal, the defensive intensity could change the probability of conversion. So the score could affect the xG through that as an instrument. I'm sure they review the model where the persistent irregularities show. This would be looking to see if your model produces error terms distributed around zero, i.e. the model captures the mean behavior and the random stuff washes out in layman's terms.

The team lost its shape without him, and the last 20 minutes, saw PIckford and Tarkowski reverting to ale house long ball punts.

It seems many view Gana as the weakest link in the midfield.

I thought Everton played without fear at Brentford and Villa, but they played with fear after the 2nd goal, and the rest of the game.

Will Sean Dyche play with a different starting line-up? Who knows… but he must get a win as the powder keg with the short fuse will be smoking.

It's a must-win v Bournemouth; if Everton can make the same amount of chances they have in the last 3 games, hopefully they can put the game out of sight by half-time.

Wishful thinking...

UTFTs!

I don't know about OMGs but there were quite a number of "Oh! FFS"s, during Saturday's game at Goodison.

Good and well to blame the coach but jeez, the players need to take a look at themselves. I mean, for fuck's sake Doucouré should have scored our goal and we were lucky Calvert-Lewin was right there because he'd ballsed it up already.

Even if Benitez exited in January, he would have been involved in the scouting and review with Brands to target the players before the January window in 2022. It was all part of Benitez's approach to oust Digne in the same way as he did with James Rodriguez.

As for selling Digne, would we have been better with Digne or Mykolenko as our left-back since January 2022? The answer is pretty self-evident.

Nothing wrong in a short pass to a nearby player as long as you don't then just stand and watch but move either into space or take an opponent with you.

Using Gana as an example and not meant as a criticism, his passes appear to me to be mostly either to a wide player, winger or full-back or alternatively, and mostly, to Onana. My dilemma then seems to be that I have no statistics to back this up and neither does there seem to be statistics to say who passes to whom or what they do after.

However, do statistics show that Pickford makes not only the teams most successful passes of more than 30 yards/metres but also the most unsuccessful?

However, what was more interesting was Jamie Carraghers's analysis on Everton's defending at corners. Seems Luton had done their homework on us and we fell for it. There was a series of corners leading up to and including the goal. It seems both Mykolenko and Branthwaite got sucked in by Luton's tactics, were targeted and held down, effectively blocked off so that they couldn't defend. When the first goal goes in, Branthwaite turns to the ref and seems to complain but that's about it. Ref is watching all the grappling and not interested. This holding of players by all teams is a bit ridiculous these days but I suppose it's part of the modern game.

My conclusion is that they both need to get used to the dark arts of football.

But very clever from Luton.

I haven't got a link to the Carragher footage but if you look at the following link, if you are interested, the relevant bit is around 2.20 mins in, about a 90 second watch - worth looking at it.

Link

Mind you if we can't figure out that a big bloke with a number 9 on his back might be worth marking then the dark arts might be a step too far right now.

I also re-watched the Bournemouth highlights from last year, funny enough same old lofted balls into the box for most of our chances and luckily Doucoure scores a screamer from a knockdown, but this surely cannot be our only tactic at home unless we play on the counter away from home. Very worried about Dyche going forward that side is better than that.

An expected goal for city with Haaland clean through ? So if ganas in the same position as Haaland he's expected to score ??

Because if they used previous Everton Data to work out our xg and the trove of Everton game situations surely very rarely we would expect goals !!! With our recent goal scoring exploits.

If you are out scoring your xg what does that prove ?? You are lucky ??
If you are scoring less than your xg does that mean you are not as good as the other teams in the league ie Chelsea, arsenal, City etc ?? Well we know that don't we ??

Many saying words to the effect of "We cannot afford to sack him" or "It's the players' responsibility blah blah" yet, come Saturday, if we collapse to Yawnmouth, how many of the people saying "We mustn't sack him" will turn?

I hear and read lots of reasons to twist but I've not heard a rational argument as to why we must stick with him.
He's failed to turn Goodison into a fortress whereas, when he was at Burnley, at least he made them hard to beat.

Anyone have a reason to keep him? I'd be interested to hear the good he has done so far this season.

Lampard, Benitez, Ancelotti, Allardyce, Silva or Koeman could turn Goodison into a fortress!!! What made you think Dyche could while spending absolutely nothing??

I think, if results continue, it will become untenable, but likewise a couple of good results and we are back up the table.

No reason them players on Saturday couldn't beat Luton, talk formations and subs and tactics all you want. The players aren't performing consistently.

It will fall on the manager, of course. But we will be left with the same inconsistent players.

Also, there are obvious factors that stat guys will try to account for in their model. Whether that includes some confidence factor I'm not sure (the player's probability to convert could be adjusted by his past running average). In addition, the location of the attempt and surrounding defenders will affect the estimate as well as the quality of the keeper. The actual posture of the player and other subtle factors could be difficult to measure but I suspect an attempt is made.

And on interpretation, if your team is registering actual goals above what the xG stat estimates you are over performing relative to other subjects. Where you go from there will involve much more detailed analyses. xG will basically help evaluate if the system is producing goal opportunities and if players are converting chances relative to other clubs in that league. Data from other leagues may help establish a sturdy statistical foundation but the subject's own league is heavily weighted in the final estimate.

I would bet that they have borrowed or reinvented the technolgy that allowed FIFA to model player specific qualities in their difital representation. Apply that to a tecorded game using AI and ta da, you've got a wealth of data to test various models

I'd have Silva back now but not Koeman… but spouting these names gets us nowhere. What's done is done. Was Dyche the correct call at the time? Yes, he was IMO but he's now proving that this job is beyond him.

We need fresh impetus to lift these players. I think we actually have a group that could do okay but we must change the manager. No good hoping for some wins with Dyche. His record with us is abysmal X frickin G or not. We need him gone.

I'll wait and see what happens after Saturday. I expect more of the same served up. If we win, I'll be staggered, truly. I cannot see a game plan. I'd still like to hear what he has done for us so far that's worthy of us keeping him?

It turns out (according to GPT4) that there's a calculation with 4 parameters:

1. Location of shooter

2. Part of body used for shot (I love the images that brings to mind)

3. Origin of the pass

4. Nature of the attack

5. Position of defenders and goalkeeper.

This seems inadequate for Everton.

It omits 'the Barlow factor': "Does the player go to pieces in the box", the Niasse - bovine exponent "Probability of hitting a cow's arse with a banjo from 2 feet" factor, the Kone adjustment, "Does he resemble something to do with getting in the way of traffic" and the Tosun-viscosity coefficient "Does he move slower than treacle".

And it was GPT4, not ChatGPT (which is still stuck in 2021 when we would play properly).

Not since Martinez have we seen consistent attempts to win games, as opposed to not losing, and the worst example of this is Dyche and his inexperienced 'yes men'. They stand on the line with boards and pens like they're conducting a government survey, instead of watching individuals and how they perform.

And as for the structure at deadball situations, I'm sure none of those players have been told what to do when having to defend them. If this is what we're in for over the next 8 months, then start preparing the routes to Hull, Plymouth and Swansea etc, as our days at the top table are history – thanks Bill

At some point we have to give someone a chance to build something. Giving mangers less than 12 months to turn us around what several managers have been unable to do, just tells me a manager needs more time.

By the time a manager has worked out who he can trust who he wants to keep, who to build a team around hes heading for the door, and a new man has to start all over.

I don't think Dyche is a long term answer to get us challenging for Europe at the top of the league.

But he can bring stability, mid table stability I think.

Stability is what's needed with all the off field goings on, a couple of results would see us firmly mid table.

We don't want that long term, but we must walk before we can run.

Of course we want better results, better performance and if it doest come he will go.

No ones ever going to turn us round if a few bumps on they road mean your sacked.

However, four successive home defeats and seven out of eight home defeats bridging the end of last season and this, is not a bump in the road.

We are sleepwalking into a full-on relegation battle which, with him in charge, we'll lose this time. We need a filip to change track. He is not stabilising the ship but I won't go on because it bores the arse off me.

I can't change a thing by stating the bleeding obvious. I'm worried we are going to do a Frank and give him too much rope. If we do, he'll hang us.

I sense Luton will only win two matches this season.