End of the line for four out of five loan players

“We wish Jack, Jesper, Orel and Armando all the very best for the future.”

Both had their short Everton careers ended by injuries, so I wonder if that had any bearing on their future with us?

It either points to shocking business or there is some sort of option to purchase Charlie for less than the stated figure if he didn't play that many games? Weird. Must sign him asap!

But Doucs got a better offer elsewhere.

Why would we commit ourselves to the obligation

Negotiate price and payment terms

Rob and Steve Shave, if that's correct, starting Alcaraz that minimum number of games would have triggered that obligation to buy at a predetermined figure. By not doing so, it seems Moyes was holding open the possibility of renegotiating that figure, and that appears to be what's happening now.

PS... which it appears everybody was saying at the same time I was!!

Looks like we are aiming to retain Alcaraz and Gueye? Keane to be confirmed (hopefully he departs as he doesn’t represent value).

Getting that much salary cost off the books gives us huge opportunities this summer.

He is 32 years old and likely to play 10-20 games next season. An extension would only make sense to me if he took a hefty wage cut from his current 75K a week salary.

O’Brien is now a regular first teamer alongside Tarks and Branthwaite, so I’d like us to sign a centre-back with development potential to add to them.

I can see the thinking because we have lots of positions to fill.

Beto
Maupay [to be sold / loaned]
Chermiti [out on loan?]
DCL [to be resolved]
Ndiaye
McNeil
Alcaraz [to be resolved]
Armstrong [out on loan?]
Gueye [to be resolved]
Garner
Iroegbunam
Mykolenko
Patterson [to be sold / loaned]
Coleman [to be resolved]
Dixon [out on loan?]
Tarkowski
Branthwaite
O'Brien
Keane [to be resolved]
Pickford

As for the CB position with Keane, it might come down to what he is offered elsewhere - and whether we can find a lower cost replacement. Managers seem to rate him higher than we do and despite the groans when he's selected, he has had a decent season when called upon. But we also seem to be linked with a handful of low cost CBs including Akpa, Diomande and Zeze all from Ligue 1 and Opoku in Turkey.

Rather than continue with an erratic and inconsistent Keane I would rather we follow the path of Obrien and Brandthwaite by buying young with potential on much lower wages which should offset the purchase price.

Alcaraz is a no brainer and we need to concentrate on fullback positions and defensive MF. Ndidi on a free looks good as does Walker Peters. I just hope we don't go down the path of Coufal or Soucek.

The obligation amount estimate differs but is anywhere from £3m to £4.5m including addons.

Link

Just 9 other players to resolve now - to add to the 10 we know (hope?) are staying.

Maupay signed for Premier League club Everton on 26 August 2022 on a three-year contract with an option of a further year for an undisclosed fee.[54] He made his debut on 3 September, playing the whole match of the goalless Merseyside derby draw with Liverpool at Goodison Park.[55]

So unless we trigger that option, it makes no sense for Marseille to pay a fee for him.

Loan to Marseille
On 30 August 2024, Olympique de Marseille confirmed Maupay had signed on a loan deal lasting until the end of the season with an obligation to buy for £6 million, rising to £10 million if certain obligations are met.[

I’d definitely keep Keane who is nowhere near as bad as people make out but will he want to remain as backup backup?

DCL would also be a useful backup but surely he’ll want to play regularly somewhere else, fitness permitting?

It all amounts to a massive rebuild, the outcome of which is highly unpredictable. Given its scale, we definitely need some early signings and a proper pre season for a change. No more playing catch up after losing the first 3 or 4 games.

Like trees falling when nobody is around to hear, do attackers without goals or assists cease to be attackers?

Whoever comes in as a loan player now must have speed, strength and a goal threat, doesn’t matter what age they are or where they’re from.

Jesper has had his settling in season and a good rest with injury, so hopefully we'd see an improvement next year playing in (hopefully) a better team. Many foreign players have needed time to settle before showing their best form and I would like to see him given a chance in the Left or in the Centre. We need depth anyway and he could fill in any of 3 spots.

I think Moyes rates him after his West Ham team played Jesper's Frankfurt in the Europa League, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him returning on loan.

the curious one is Alcaraz, surely SURELY we haven't signed a conrract that only enables a purchase if a certain amount of games is played, we must have also retained a right to buy him anyway regardless of the amount of games played. If there is not such an option, we have played this extraordinarily poorly, alerting all our rivals to a player who can be got for 12m who will score plenty of gals at this level. I can't believe we'd be that stupid, or that we are playing hardball about paying 12m for this lad, he's probably worth twice that.

Beto
Chermiti
Ndiaye
McNeil
Alcaraz
Armstrong
Gueye
Garner
Iroegbunam
Mykolenko
Tarkowski
Branthwaite
O'Brien
Keane
Pickford

That’s 15. We need around 7 oven ready players to come in, including 1st choice striker, right winger, right back and back up goalie.
I’d like DCL to stay but he’s not a first choice striker and that’s what we need most.

That suggests they are not returning.

Mangala is the only one I would have been keen to retain, but he will be out for a number of months.

Given the five substitute rules that means we need a squad of at least 16 players for any game and with injuries and rotation I feel we should have 25 who are of first team standard.

That means we have to get as many new high quality additions in asap but certainly over the next 2 windows.

Now 4 of those could be loans but we definitely need a permanent RB,DM and 2 wingers as a priority and that is excluding Charly who I believe is a no brainer.

Harrison, despite his effort, was the worst Everton player I’ve seen since Iwobi. He was like a spinning top who never knew when to stop.

Not bothered on the other loans, and I’m pretty sure that we have targets anyway to replenish the squad with more quality. If TFG are serious and mean business I expect a few new faces for a stronger squad.

Not a good negotiating tactic.

Quite happy with what was said. More interested in what is done. Armando is not coming back.

Orel played in Moyes' first 3 games and then injured so David probably does not have an opinion based his time at Everton. An ACL is 6-12 months so the earliest is the start of the season, latest is end of the year. You will want to see how he is so maybe another loan from Jan '26 if he has shown he has recovered.

Jesper came in for Jack after David's first game in charge, played 8 games although never made 90 minutes in any of them. But Moyes seems to have more faith in him than Harrison. Napoli just won Serie A so he may want to go back, but probably now as a back up. He "only" had a hernia so should be fit for the new season but does he have the stamina (and ability) for the Premier League. I think he is a watch this space for a loan next season.

Harrison - if £15m is the release fee - is probably not coming back for a 3rd season either on loan or purchase. 49 starts and 14 off the bench in 76 games is a pretty high rate of appearances and so the management know what they are getting. Dropped after Moyes first game, came back after N'diaye got injured and then Lindstrøm and then left out for McNiel's two starts. Obvioulsly a back up and will not return.

Who of those do you not think is good enough for first team duties?

I tend to go off what I see on judging a player.

Mark, I'd go with your list. We've watched them this season to know they are the core of a side that needs surrounding by better quality players.

I was simply suggesting that the public pronouncement had to stop at that point but maybe the private behind the scenes discussions within the club are the bits I added on. We already were bitten with Borja having to be treated for his injury when we took him on loan. Even if we wanted Mangala, we will not buy before he recovers and we will not lie up a loan spot until we know he will be OK. So don't write the two of them off coming back here next season.

Of all the loan players only Mangala looked decent but with an ACL injury the club cant gamble on him. That leaves a first team squad of 15 if Mark is correct.

So seeing as Moyes has said he would only have 1 or 2 at most on loan that means he might have to bring in 5/6 permanent signings. But I trust Moyes to bring in the right type of player.

Here's my thoughts to add this thread.

Possibly buy another youngish centre-back who can play right back again (which means no more Keane) so 4 centre-backs in total, and it means Branthwaite can cover left back if needed. Also it means all the defenders get more game time in the season. Total 4 centre-backs and Mykolenko + another on the bench - see lower down.

Buy a right forward/winger, Alcaraz, and a striker/finisher too to alternate with Beto.

The rest loans for me such as a quality midfielder if not enough money to buy a quality midfielder, and another full back happy to sit on the bench if can't get for free.

Free's: Like any club out there, try to get any player who is quality and free.

Next season if the team is pushing Europe, start a list for the next batch of transfers for the following summer transfer window.

Moyes played a kid not yet 17 at the start of 2002. Wore the No18 shirt. Wayne something.
Jimmy Vaughan was a month younger than that Wayne kid when he scored his first goal.
Victor was not 18 when he made his first appearance.
All under David Moyes.

In the last 7 seasons, teenagers have had only 18 starts out of 2,926 players (7 x 38 x 11).

Moyes is no different to all other managers - not worse, maybe not much better. But Nick Chadwick, Wayne Rooney, Victor Anichebe, Jimmy Vaughan, Jack Rodwell, Jose Baxter, Danny Gosling, Ross Barkley, Apostolos Velios (remember him?) all made their debuts (and not just as a sub) as teenagers under David Moyes Mk1

So fully expect Harrison Armstrong to start before the end of next season. Issue is midfield is a place you cannot hide and you need to be on the game all the time.

Calvert-Lewin has the lowest conversion rate in the Premier League (less than 5%) combined with a terrible injury record and he wants £7M pa. It is no wonder teams are not banging on his door so we should not offer him any more than his current salary with a pay-off clause if his injuries continue.

At the same time, Delap has a conversion rate of 46+% can he repeat that? We also saw a 'wind-up attitude' in his game against us. Reminds me of a terrible player that we wish we never bought who will hopefully leave this year.

After 57 first team starts I can only say that it is a great relief that Harrison is returning to Leeds. Why he was loaned for a second season is beyond my comprehension.

Hopefully he is very keen to sign for us, Flamengo are motivated to sell, and it can all be done quickly at a fee that suits us.

As many have said we must be looking at better options, although before, I was fearful that Harrison and possibly Doucoure would be offered new deals. Harrison could not be faulted for his work-rate, but his end product, and lack of goals was pitiful, especially when he was often in positions to score.

Wish him all the best though. Just DCL to go now and sign Alcaraz as soon as possible. Dyno Rod must have visited Finch Farm ! :-)

He is part of a good Everton team.

I'm interpreting that the fee is agreed but the wages aren't.
Maybe Alcaraz or his agents are demanding too much?

I think it would be pity if Armstrong was sent out on loan again next season.

The club statement says the club is having "discussions" with Alcaraz, the club statement doesn't mention "negotiating" with Alcaraz so I don't know where you read "negotiating".

I'd take the club statement as the best source for the true details.

Doucoure clearly wanted to stay with us, as long as we gave him the wages he was after.

Brian, precisely, the club is discussing ‘with Alcaraz', not with Flamengo. What is there to discuss with the player apart from term? — ie, negotiating.

Admittedly going forward he had challenges but at least he made the opposition defend. Hopefully his replacement is better not only going forward but defensively.

I liked Mangala but that is a decision for the January window.
I also liked Jasper do think there is a good prospect there. I believe his problem is he tried to hard and forced play rather than believe in himself.

I have already outlined in a different thread on what I think are our priorities but let's not flood this squad with too many newcomers who may not get Everton and end up disrupting the team spirit we saw on Sunday.

Finally, not sure if it's this thread or another but whoever said that Iwobi along with Harrison were the worst Everton players they have seen — either they are deliberately stirring or have not watched Everton for very long.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/everton-fc/cap/_/year/2024

"… but let's not flood this squad with too many newcomers who may not get Everton and end up disrupting the team spirit we saw on Sunday".

What number would you suggest, Neil? We are in all likelihood losing ten or more of the current squad. This is the real consequence of a policy of loans and overly long contracts. This was always going to happen. A crunch summer in which we have to try to deal with the accumulations of a risky even if it was pragmatic in the circumstances DoF strategy.

So, here we are and we need in my opinion 7-8 new faces. Team spirit is not a top priority and if it is a concern at all for those who buy and sell it would be more likely to be the case of what is on file about the character of a potential new player. Putting ourselves in a place where we can compete on all fronts is the top priority.

What's the alternative: 16-18 senior players?

I would sign Charly. I would keep Keane on a short-term contract. I would have renewed Harrison for a year if possible. (I'm sure you will advise on that!) I would certainly considered Jesper Lindstrom.

That leaves 3 or 4 new faces that need to 'get' the club. If you read my post on another thread, I outlined what I believe we need and it amounted to 4 or 5 new signings.

As I also said, let's build on the current foundation and Avoid the mistakes of the Koeman/Walsh era which IMHO started our current decline. Build slowly and carefully with a definite long-term strategic plan.

I was surprised in this situation that we did not give Harrison another year, Neil. Keane has to be given 1 or 2 more years and he deserves that. What if Branthwaite is sold?

Honestly, I don't trust these $$$$$ driven Yanks and want to be reassured this summer that necessary money will be made available over and above any possible fee for Jarrad.

It looks like stats are coming into the reckoning on who should stay..

Yes, I want us back up competing for Champions League places and even the title but let's have a plan as this is a long-term project to be built on solid foundations. Let's not be like Leicester. Champions one season and now alternating between Premier League and Championship.

Teams below us will spend and will in that case have larger squad. The only prediction I will make for next season, Neil, is Sunderland 20th!

Harrison was unable to cross, dribble, pass and he was slow. The only winger I've seen who was better going backwards than forwards. He might have suited Dyche's model of a winger, but think David Moyes has higher expectations.

Good luck to the lad and all that, but I want to sign wingers for their ability on the ball and pace. Mr Moyes will get them up to speed on the defensive side.

Or maybe Moyes has said "I want him" and now it's the contracts people discussing T&Cs with Charly?

So we're not looking for squad players – we're looking for first-team players right off the bat. Hope we're busy in the transfer window.

Can you share the insight that you have with us that it is David Moyes's 'dithering' delaying the signing of Alcaraz?

Doucoure has already said that he won't be staying on lower wages and perhaps Harrison's £95k pw is also a stumbling block and it was reported a little while ago that Calvert-Lewin's contract offer had been redrawn.

Others out of contract yet to be mentioned include Gana and Keane and it does sound as though the delay on Alcaraz is maybe wages which I'd have thought would have been settled before now… or are we only paying his Flamengo wages while on loan?

I can't see that Pickford or Tarkowski would be let go although the length of Tarkowski's contract may be a big part of discussions.

Somebody queried if discussions could be read as negotiations on wages but, apart from length of contract, what else would be the main sticking points as they can't insist on being selected?

The one departing that I'm most sorry to see go is Virginia – he does seem to be the player wanting more playing time.

I don't think anyone could knock Harrison's effort. He was rarely found wanting in that sense.

It's a shame we didn't see more of Mangala.

I have repeatedly said the same as you, that too many incomings is not always a good thing.

The reality however, is that I don't think we now have much choice. I would expect a settling-in period, so we are likely to have to hold our nerve if things don't get off to a flying start.

This later was reported as being 8 games which he has reached having played 15 games and it triggers a transfer deal for Everton to pay between £15M to £18M for a 4-year contract.

Speculation arose after 8 games because Flamengo said it was mandatory that Everton pay the transfer fee, whilst Everton said it was an option. This is probably because, in Everton's case, personal terms had to be agreed with the player regarding wages. Since the agreement was till the end of the season, it would be then that the personal terms would be negotiated since the terms of the transfer deal have been met.

So between £15M and £18M will be paid to Flamengo once Alcaraz has agreed personal terms on the 4-year contract.

I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Flamengo manager saying he was annoyed we had agreed such a low fee. I'll have a look for it.

SB why do I get a sense of hostility from you? This is not the first time you have responded to my posts using quotation marks. Have I offended you at some time?

Jerome #128, that makes sense. Flamengo cannot force us to pay for a player that doesn't want to transfer.

Whether we need to sell anyone as in previous years to ensure we do not breach the regulations for the third time remains my main concern. I think patience may be the necessary for the time being.

Quite right but I would include those things as wage negotiations with the exception of taxes which maybe a matter for the player through his agent and include other sources of income.

Is he as a contractor, not an employee, responsible for paying his taxes as I seem to recall other "big" name players having tax problems, not their clubs, although that is mostly from an elderly memory.

PSR will be the primary consideration.

A third party could easily hold a stake. This could be a more complicated deal than first appears.

Funes Mori springs to mind, that the actual fee was way higher than first quoted. And we walked away from VVD at Celtic to go after the Argentine. Another fantastic transfer episode...

I simply believe the main purpose of a winger is to pose an attacking threat. If the main attribute a winger has is to press and track back, then he is more suited to Sean Dyche's game plan than David Moyes's.

Many posters on here seem to want to retain Harrison but I don't see it. It is a good thing we have removed his wage and opened up a slot for a pacey, creative wide man.

Now the big task - buying the right replacement.

I would have hoped that our projected PSR position would have been factored in when we negotiated the deal, but things may have tightened since. Alternatively, the club may have prioritised retaining Doucs for the central role and only moved on Charly when he turned us down.

The outcome unfortunately might a transfer fee north of the £15m buy-option. Charly has 16 appearances, 2 goals and 3 assists. We also might not be the only club in for him.

I guess David Moyes has seen enough of the loanees to decide they are not good enough/injury prone/both and thinks there is better value out there.

Big summer ahead for TFG.

The first XI possibly only has 2 or 3 spots to fill and another 3 or 4 or even 5 (+) might be signed for cover / development.

Of these, there will probably be some with Premier League experience - like Walker-Peters for example. And there could be 2 new keepers coming in, neither of whom will play much.

Whatever happens the core squad of players playing regularly will probably be more like 15 or 16 with others only coming in when there are injuries.

We could sign 8 + players therefore without it being too disruptive.

Likewise, Harrison definitely put in a shift and had some important goal involvements but wouldn’t be in other top 6 sides.
Others loaners didn’t really get a chance to show their potential due to injury or just didn’t really impress, Lindstrom.
Best of luck to them in the next stage of their respective careers.

TFG, Moyes, Kinnear and anyone else involved in acquiring players and negotiating terms are going to have one busy summer.

Btw, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that an irresistible bid comes in for Branthwaite too. Upwards of £60m would give Moyes and co. greater leverage in the market. Just saying, I think it’s unlikely but shouldn’t be ruled out.

Finally, if they can agree terms I might be tempted to keep DCL as a back up striker!! (Ducks for cover.)

Robert @143, another sensible viewpoint. You know mine, but you framed that well. The core of our first 11 isn't as bad as some think. It just needs more quality around those key players and more depth, which is what you are saying.

We can then concentrate on developing high quality players who can takeover from the likes of Gueye, Beto and Mykolenko after a season to acclimatise.

Jimmy # 145 if DCL played for, say, West Ham and was available on a free we’d have lots of posters saying he should be our No 1 target this summer. Re-signing him isn’t a terrible idea although I think will not be either party’s plan A.

Beto, although likeable, is too inconsistent, especially one on ones and judging the offside situations when he does score. At 26 or whatever he is hardly a work in progress who will improve.

If an offer came in where we registered a profit for Beto, and allegedly there are some interested, I would be tempted to take it, provided we had at least one striker in and possibly another lined up.

I agree with Danny @ 146, and have said it on here many a time, that we DO have a decent nucleus of players, with only a few additions required in key areas. However, we have to be prepared for injuries etc, so where it becomes more difficult is getting players prepared to sign, of decent quality, but also prepared to act as substitutes, or in the wings etc.

Beto will probably not improve you are right - which means he is a circa 12-goal-a-season striker.

But as we've seen with other clubs it is very difficult to find a player who scores more than that – even if you spend £60M plus.

Delap has had a good season – but so too did Solanke before joining Spurs etc etc.

There are a few interesting players within reach (possibly) like Evan Ferguson and Santiago Castro but not many. Our best chance of finding a top striker is probably to develop a very young one as Bournemouth and Brighton are each going with Kroupi and Tzimas.

I have always wondered how Bournemouth and Brighton unearth these hitherto unknown players for modest fees, and most turn out to be absolute bargains, which end up being sold on for vast profits. Surely most of these talent scouts, including ours have run the rule over the same players and not followed it up!

Brighton also trade at such a high volume they have a lot of failures too. Gyökeres was one such failure whom they let go to Coventry after he failed to make the grade at Brighton. There are lots and lots of less famous ones. However since they were all cheap it hasn't hurt them financially.

His shoulder charge that led to Keane's goal at Fulham put their defender almost into the Everton end. We must keep them and be prepared to pay more for Alcaraz; these are amazing assets.

We need more of them!

Conversely though, they are going to be extremely difficult to replace. Either we try and pull off the trick again, and hope we get a Gueye not a Delph, or we have to recruit in the usual fashion. But to recruit players who play at the same standard as these chaps will require significant investment.

Mangala – Gentlemen's agreement to loan again in January if/when fit again, with option to buy next year?

Harrison – Works hard, cannot fault attitude or willingness, but not enough end product in 2 years for me.

Broja – Cheerio, we don't need another injury-prone centre forward. Didn't even feel like h threatened to score in the 12(?) games he played in.

Charly Alcaraz has done more than enough for me, good price and probably a good wage for both parties. He has popped up with a couple of goals, looks a threat and a pest. Something we've missed since Cahill and Naismith in that respect

Alcaraz is a no brainer for me.

Mangala would be a yes, but i've a feeling a certain Mr Textor will want nothing to do with us.

Harrison as everyone else said great work horse but he just doesn't have the end product.

Broja is just too injury prone so a no go.

This season he scored a goal every 191 minutes in the league. This puts him in the high teens for a full season.

To put it into context (excluding penalties), Ollie Watkins scores every 186 minutes, and Chris Wood every 175 minutes.

Once again, excluding penalties, Liam Delap scores every 262 minutes.

I realise there are other attributes required of a centre-forward, but goals scored are the priority.

Bob, you are the 3rd person today that I have to doth my cap to for statistics regarding your post on Beto.

I can only go off what I see with the naked eye. Beto is a clumsy oaf, but for now he's our clumsy oaf. He's a handful, runs himself into the ground, gets into goal scoring positions, fluffs his lines sometimes, but scores goals.

And the supporters mostly like him.

It may be that Moyes's football suits him and / or at 27 he's now matured (being a late developer). So who knows… he might get a 15-goal season next year.

Bu,t as Danny says, he is clumsy and we all know he's not a top striker. He will impress one week and frustrate the next.

But if we can get 12 to 15 goals out of him, 10-ish from Ndiaye, and say 5 or so from each of Alcaraz and a new right wing or forward, then the goals for column starts to look much healthier.

Keep and hone!

He could well blossom as the side develops. I would keep him.

Loved the comment elsewhere: The Premier League have decided to award Everton extra points in the coming season because they are so far under PSR.

Charly deffo improving. We have to buy him. Not just because he has quality and ability, but also due to the mess we've been left in as a squad.

Moyes knows this and will be working hard to ensure he keeps his job.

Everton are still a mess, it will take a few seasons to steer the ship to the land of glory, we are still sailing in the sea of hope.

Image rights would be separate from wages as they are commonly paid offshore to reduce tax liability, so there's scope for manoeuvre.

Paris FC looks like a massive step down for Gana. Unsurprising that there is interest in him but Moyes will understand his value to the team and Everon should match all but Saudi level silly money contract offers. Unless a bigger club enters the picture, I think he will stay.

If not, another loan offer for Mangala?

But does that exclude them being discussed at the same time and Agents (or Agents company) fees come after tax?

As you highlight, it may not be so straight forward.