Everton back in for Villa winger Jaden Philogene

Paper talk one hopes. This would be another case of cleaning the deck of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.
We have to sign full backs. It would be good to sign a proven attacking force. But who would join us to play defend and counter in a relegation dogfight?
I believed we were to slow to replace Lampard with Dyche, and that nearly cost us. Now we are doing the same again.
Drastic action is needed. Signing a bench warming, non productive winger is NOT a priority.

Forget his time at Villa, this lad would improve us immensely. Quick and direct, can cross a ball, a has a good shot. I'd sign his straight away. Now if Dyche plays him, that's another matter.

Paul, to begin with he would need to finish his many hours training on grass before being considered for the subs bench.

I would endorse Joe's point and add that if he is a Thelwell selection he may simply end up on the bench alongside the young Irish centre half we bought.

Let's hope that there is some truth in this, we need more players with pace and skill.

The right age with something to prove is a positive move.

I believe we are that desperate for reinforcements now, any new name being linked inspires some hope. Unless it's a case of 'horses for courses' he may, or not fit in.

What worries me though is, I have a lot of admiration for Unai Emery, and think he is a pretty good judge of a player. So why (if true) are they willing to offload after just 6 months?

Derek @6. Mourinho didn't want Salah and KDD. They haven't turned out to be bad players. Sometimes a move just doesn't work for some reason.

Apologies, Derek Knox beat me to the punch.

I'd add a note of caution to this potential transfer (if true)

IF Unai Emery and his team can't get this lad up to speed, despite all his attributes that PH mentions at #2. Then how would we develop and progress Jaden's abilities and career, when it has been a widely held view that Dyche hasn't improved a single player?

Yes, he would improve the attacking side of the team on the right (maybe) BUT again he is a RFd LW (which is an alternative to McNeil and Harrison I suppose - but we have Ndiaye), which means if played on the LW he's going to cut in much akin to Ndiaye; and if played on the RW, it isn't his favoured position, though potentially it might improve him and us, as he wouldn't be an inverted winger and hopefully try to get to the bye-line to cross...?

All in all, despite being 22yo and relatively cheap, I'd steer clear. He'd just be a Villa cast-off, like a Utd cast-off. or a Chelsea cast-off.

Please TFG can we fire our scouting and recruiting departments and get some people in who actually scout.

Maybe ask TFG to consider Robert Tressell and Sam Hoare to assist?

Also, I agree with Mike Doyle, if brought in, would Dyche play-him if a) he's not match fit, or Dyche fit, and B) he's not willing to work as hard back as forwards, or c) he doesn't train well?

Fabrizio Romano seems to think this is on the cards and for a fee not a loan.

One for the future — we will have the best reserve side in the Championship.

This is the lad I wanted signed in the summer. He is a cracking footballer with end product. I will be very happy if we get him.

We need a play maker. This probably means Dyche is out of a job.

We'd train any ability out of this lad within three months anyway.

Simon # 8. I wouldn't get worked up about him being a Villa cast off. I believe Sheedy was an RS cast off.

As you can see at Forest - where Elanga and Hudson-Odoi are doing so well - pace and trickery are a valuable asset.

Philogene would give us much more of this. He's not Vini Junior but he'd be a useful asset for the 2nd half of the season - with the potential to become a Mirallas standard (ish) player going forwards.

There are lots of other players like him (and possibly better too) but are they available in Jan? Can we afford them?

Quite possibly not.

Another PSR transfer with Armstrong or Dixon going the other way?

If there's one thing EFC are crying out for it's width and crosses. i'd prefer to sign 2 wing backs with pace but will take anyone who can improve the crossing ability of the team which is 0 so far this season.

If he’s got serious pace then great because we’re desperate for that. We need to follow the Forest template of pace on both wings and in midfield.

Unbelievable that we were actually in for Diaz, Kudus, Semenyo and Gibbs-White; our recruitment is at least as bad as our management.

Signing the odd player now in January for the future is probably the best thing we can do if we are to keep Dyche til next season.

The lad's young and English, we will almost certainly get our money back; if the next manager plays him, his value will soar.

Fact is you need established players to affect the starting team but, for that type of player, you have to spend money, and if we have to spend money, you don't want Dyche spending it.

We need players who the next manager wants. The last thing we need is another Tosun, Walcott, Niasse, Bolasie, Sigurdsson, Keane, Gbamin, or any of the mob who cost us good money, sat around for 5 years, and left on a free.

Mike @17,

I guess a lack of money played a part? Any of those you mentioned would have made a big difference, assuming they were played in their correct positions and not as auxiliary full-backs.

Mike 17,

We can't follow Forest template as we would break PSR rules again. I am not sure how Forest have avoided PSR again with another £100M spent this season.

Do we have anyone on here who can shed any light on our financial position?

Hi Rob @20, I don't mean just in this window but moving forward, over the next few years.

Please god we get some serious pace and power throughout the whole squad, surely that has to be an absolute prerequisite moving forwards.

Even the successful wingers we've had, like Deulofeu and Richarlison, didn't have searing pace. If we had fast full-backs or central defenders or midfielders, at least that would negate the opposition's pace but there's no pace anywhere. We must have the slowest squad in the Premier League.

Mike 21,

I agree, we must have the slowest team in the Premier League. Speed of thought is also missing from most of them.

We will probably get this one over the line if its not just speculation. Obviously we wanted him in the last window but Villa kept him after he looked outstanding for Hull in the Championship.

He is only 22 and I would be very happy if we signed him as I think he has definite potential to be a very good player.

I remember a few years ago Jarrod Bowen playing for Hull and many clubs over-looked him, including us. He signed for West Ham at 23 for £22M and he didn't turn out badly.

Also, there were murmurings about Tim for Villa, however he became a fans favorite prior to injury, food for thought folks.

So we have an interest in Aston Villa’s Philogene.

Sounds like a medicine, just what we need.

Mike #21,

We've been among the slowest in the Premier League for years now. We've had no dangerous pace up top since Rom and none in the midfield since the last century.

We haven't recruited a seriously speedy player since Bolasie.

Fred @24.

He's being bought to help Ashley Young because we all know that Philogene fortifies the over-forties!

Why is it that we can all see we have no pace but the recruitment department continually neglect it. They aren't fit for purpose.

This manager doesn't help because all he looks for is size and height, which rarely combines with pace.

These players get lots of accolades about potential until they join Everton and it all ends there.

If he hasn't made a mark at Villa then he won't here unless we have a new manager at the helm.

We need more speed, tackling and creativity where it matters; until that changes, we will stay with the bottom feeders.

Mike Price 27: Why is it that we can all see we have no pace but the recruitment department continually neglect it. They aren't fit for purpose.

Agree Mike. We need root and branch reform in nearly all areas of the club. We need to get rid of the ancien regime and Thelwell is a big part of what and where we are now. He has to go.

Fred/Brian, he sounds more like an author of Greek Tragedy to me or was he in The Iliad?

We need leaders on and off the pitch.

I remember when Andy King and Andy Gray came to the club. Both arrived when we were in the doldrums. Both were huge characters.

King, the cheeky chappy and Gray, let's kick the crap out of this lot. Both of them lifted the spirits of teammates and fans alike.

This bunch of players are too meek and mild. We need fighters who can play.

There must be players with pace out there?

I watched Forest the other day and a lot of them were like shit off a shovel. I'd never heard of most of them 12 months ago.

Out recruitment is horrendous.

Liam, we tried to sign Elanga, Sosa, Hudson-Odoi and Gibbs-White. It's not a scouting problem - it's a lack of money issue.

I read that Agbonghalor described him as "not good enough" and he has zero goals or assists in 14 appearances. Sounds ideal to bring the same level of output we see from Harrison and Linstroem.

Colin (30),

Andy King and Andy Gray can't have played many games together, if any. Andy King's second spell here was 1982-84 and Gray didn't join us till the end of 1983.

Or have I misunderstood your post?

I lose count of the players we were meant to sign, Rob, there's been so many of them! I defer to your knowledge though as you are always well informed.

Whatever the reason, our recruitment is horrendous, even when we were flush with Usmanov money.

One of the best players in the Championship and has the pace and trickery that might help us on the counter.

Not sure if we can afford him or whether Dyche would play him but he has Ndiaye qualities and could get fans on their feet.

Robert @32 thank you for saying that, 100%! People on here keep digging out Thelwell for his signings and completely overlooking who were seriously after in the past.

Add to that list Guirassey, Thelwell was after him just before he hit major form for Stuttgart and earned a move to Dortmund. Not to mention Kudos now at West Ham.

There have been others who went on to do well, he has an eye for talent just before it exploded for them, he just hasn't had the financial backing, nor the club stability behind him to get them over the line.

So for the above reasons along with my view that Thelwell has performed minor miracles on a shoestring budget, I want us to give him real backing with a new contract.

We need some continuity moving into the new era and he's seen it all, he deserves his shot. I hope he is anti Dyche though and sells him down the river in his next meeting with the Friedkin's.

Philogene is exactly the sort of player we should be after, i think he needs some love. People on here who are criticising his form and choice to go to Villa, i don't know how much say he had in that. They exercised their buy back clause for a bargain £13M, knowing his stock had risen and they could make a fast buck out of the sale. Don't read too much in them wanting shot of him, even if it hasn't worked out under Emery for him.

Steve @37, Good call.

He's had a task trying to get anyone to Everton. In the near future, that may change.

Thelwell has spent significant amounts: Chermiti – £15M, we could have got the pacy, skilful Sarr that Palace got for less than £13M. He bought Beto… for well over £20M; that alone shows he hasn't got a clue, it was more than Ipswich paid for Delap. O'Brien was around £15M... what's he added to our first team?

Broja signed with a long-term injury, Lindstrøm not helping, he re-signed Harrison and gave Coleman, Doucouré and Young extensions. Lazy signings and some shockingly bad ones. I don't think he was responsible for Mykolenko because that one is probably the worst of a very bad bunch.

The only success is Ndiaye.

Here we go, he's saying his goodbye's and is off to Ipswich.

We were in for him, but the Tractor Boys blew us out the water.

I think they've bought him not loaned him.

Hmm… Philogine fancy?

I wouldn't trade him for the whole world…

Had Everton matched or bettered Ipswich's £21M plus addons the pitchforks would be out on here for Thelwell being clueless and throwing money away.

Brian @34, they both played for us in different decades ('70s and '80s).

My, intended, point was they both lifted the spirits of players and fans alike. We need characters like these two again.

The headline on Goodison News is:

'Philogene latest. Medical booked after Everton Bid – Fabrizio Romano'

Just read that he is having a medical at Ipswich.

What does that tell you about the attraction of signing for Everton?

Gerry (#46);

Signing for Everton or the Everton manager, whoever that may be in the near future, and/or what the new owner's intentions are given that there must be some cost-cutting measures imposed sooner rather than later and with so many players contracts up for renewal at season's end.

Mike @39, we didn't pay £15M or anything near it for Chermiti. He cost about £3M up front and will only cost more when/if he starts banging in the goals.

Equally Beto cost £0 up front, and the only reason the total amount was so high was because the selling club was getting paid on the drip.

People taking shots at Thelwell seem to have little idea of the restrictions he has been operating under. We are dead bottom of the Premier League net spend table over the last 5 years. And nearly all our deals have to be structured in a way that is unattractive to many selling clubs.

The scouting has been decent, it's the finances that have been horrendous. Hopefully that changes now.

Also in Philogene, £21M+ is a big fee for a winger who's only stood out in the Championship. Talented guy but a little overpriced for me.

Sam, do you have a source for Chermiti costing £3M? Everything I read says £12M or so which could rise to £15M.

As for Beto – we might be paying on the drip but he's still costing what he cost. The payment arrangement won't even impact PSR.

Ernie, I did have a source but can't find it right now. £3M not an exact figure but certainly wasn't that high a fee initially.

As for Beto, won't it affect PSR as it will change the year that the payments fall in? Thought that was the whole point. And yes he was too expensive but if we'd had the finances to pay up front, the fee would probably have been under £20M (still too much in retrospect) at the time Beto probably looked the best (only?) striker that could be bought in for no initial fee.

I've never seen Chermiti quoted at those prices. He's always quoted at £10-12M initially.

The Beto fee will be amortised over the life of his contract. The cash payment timing won't come into it from a Pifit & Loss or PSR perspective.

Of course cash is still important. If we didn't have much cash available (and the Esk had said similar over the last few years) then he may have been the best option.

Sam and Ernie, in an article about him last week, the NY Times lists Chermiti's initial fee as £10.4 million. He says Thelwell was on the phone to him every day to fend off bids from Wolves and Newcastle.

He is also described as one of the most desirable young forwards in Europe.

I really believe that, if not for the toe injury, we would have seen that by now.

Mike, I hope so, I've always liked the look of him.

As for the fee I guess none of us know for sure but the language can be confusing. For example does ‘initial fee' mean the first payment or just the guaranteed payment before add-ons?

My understanding with Chermiti was that there was a guaranteed fee of around £10M but with structured payments over his contract, hence there being a small outlay that season. I think the source was Paddy Boyland (who's very reliable) but can't remember.

How are Ipswich not getting mentioned around PSR?

They're like Forest when they came back up.

In the summer window of 2023 we spent c. £1.75M on permanent signings and a bit more of the loans of Danjuma and Harrison. That is all.

We had PSR and the very real threat of insolvency to contend with.

The £1.75M was reported to be the initial payment for Chermiti. The remainder of about £9M was due on appearances etc.

As Ernie says, we spent £0 on Beto, which inflated the fee to be paid later to €25M (about £22M).

There are plenty of true things to moan about at Everton. No need to moan about things that aren't true.

Michael, it's embarrassing isn't it? This is the second time he's rejected us.

Will we be back for him in the summer? Probably. We never learn.

Michael, good point re; Ipswich and PSR, more bewilderingly (if true) it looks like a strong possibility that he is going to Ipswich for a medical.

It is a sad state when players are preferring Ipswich to us, with new owners, new stadium etc, etc. Worrying times as everyone we are allegedly linked with thus far, seems to fall through!

Derek, new (invisible and mute) owners and a boring, defensive minded manager. Not an attractive option for ambitious players or managerial candidates.

I have no idea what Friedkin and co are doing. I hope they do.

Rob @20
I think the only reason Forest have avoided further sanctions is their dodgy deal with Newcastle for Anderson and some 30 year old Greek keeper
Did the same as us with Dobbin and Tim
Looks like they put his transfer in at about 20M
There's an article on him on the Athletic but I don't have a subscription for that.
The also got decent fees off Lyon for Mangala and Niakhate.
Apparently Lyon are in real danger of doing a Rangers and being demoted to the bottom of the football pyramid unless they sell players asap
We should be fishing around them for some bargains
Promising Striker, Winger and CM options

Apart from his agent ( through Fabrizio Romano !!) saying we were interested and the Daily Mail (!!!) reporting that, is there any evidence that we were even in the bidding??

Apparantly he is big mates with Greaves, who joined Ipswich in the summer, and they had already agreed to go back for him. Sounds like speculation that we were in for him to me.

UTFT

As to why other clubs keep spending and we can't I think there are a few reasons - but others will be better versed on this than me.

1. We have the disadvantage of the disastrous 2016 to 2020 / 21 period. This is when we massively inflated the wage bill while reducing the quality in the squad - at the same time as signing rapidly deteriorating players - effectively burning through hundreds of millions in transfer fees but getting nothing back in resale.

2. Moshiri pulled the plug at the end of 2020/21.

3. Stadium costs.

4. Rubbish commercial side of the club.

In the same period since 2021, we'll run smaller clubs have been able to spend heavily due to TV revenues - and their player development strategies are often very good, generating money to reinvest in the playing squad.

Clubs like Bournemouth can now compete with the likes of AC Milan in the transfer market.

Meanwhile, since Moshiri pulled the plug our investment in players has been less than Watford, Sheffield Utd, Norwich, Luton, Burnley and Leeds - and is €100m adrift of Wolves, our closest rival in low investment in the Premier League.

We are €230m adrift of Ipswich in that period. Significant when our entire squad cost only about €220m to assemble.

This is the scariest relegation battle.

Dyche is inert, and useless. The squad is as weak as ever. We have a new ownership who are somehow more useless.

We're going nowhere, the club are completely inert, and the fanbase are finished. We haven't got the energy to yet again drag a bunch of useless wankers to safety.

Wow Rob 62, someone piss in your tea this morning?

TFG only took over a couple weeks ago, during Xmas, give them a chance maybe? Ink has barely dried. The squad hasn’t changed since August so not sure about it being weaker and there are currently 4 teams below us.

Let’s get the win this evening and see what happens before Villa. 3.5 weeks till the transfer window shuts and as we know, most transfers happen towards the end.

When we get McNeil, Tim and Garner back we’ll be more solid.

Not all doom and gloom. Could be a Southampton fan!

We get the occasional oddball on here calling for relegation so we can 're-set and come back stronger'.

Just look at Luton relegated last season and now just two points and two places above the relegation zone.

Dropping down would be the end of this club IMO.

Looks like he's gone to Ipswich.

You can't really blame him for going to Ipswich – uncertainty is not very appealing when you're looking for work, and there's no reason to suggest we'll stay up over Ipswich.

The atmosphere at Goodison is awful, we play awful football, and with new owners and a manager who could lose his job any day, there's no guarantee of what might happen at Everton at the moment.

At least at Ipswich he can be assured of a few things: getting a game, playing decent football, playing in a stadium where the atmosphere is fun and they're enjoying being in the Premier League, and playing for a manager who likes to play expansive football.

I'll also wager he's got some sort of get-out clause if they go down that stipulates he can go back to a Premier League club if they do (or something of that nature).

What will he get at Everton? Awful football, a near toxic Goodison, owners with no plan that we yet know about, a manager who plays ancient shite football, often refuses to play players for no apparent reason, appears to hold grudges, has nailed-on favourites, and if we go down, he'd probably be forced to stay because we're a 'big club' and thus won't fire-sale new players.

All slightly hyperbolic and entirely without foundation in fact, but you see where I'm coming from – we're just not that attractive.

So he has joined Ipswich. This is a double hammer blow in my opinion.

Blow # 1: He has the ability to get past a full-back and get balls into the box from the right – just what we need.

Blow # 2: Delap will shortly be being hailed as the new Isak.

I regard his decision to join Ipswich instead of us very bad news. Let's have some good news soon please TFG.

PSR strikes again. We are beaten to a transfer target due to the shackles of PSR.

Nothing to do with Dyche or the new owners this is down to the league wanting to protect the big guns with the psr nonsense.

Does anyone have any sympathy with Thelwell and Dyche for trying to sign a player only to be gazumped yet again?

Martin @59,

How is buying Anderson and a Greek keeper avoiding PSR for Frrest?

Are Ipswich avoiding PSR due to this being the first season in the Premier League so the EFL rules don't follow on, similar to the Leicester situation?

As Wolves fans sang “It's just not football anymore!”

Fed up of bureaucrats and accountants running the game. It's not sport anymore.

James @66,

What a load of drivel, no mention of money at all. You even said yourself nothing in your post is fact – just you slagging us off. We are in a bad enough spot as it is without our own fans spouting shite.

“Gazumped”?

Can anyone show me a link that shows we made a bid or even approached the player? (Daily Mail does not count.)

Rob - as with 99% of the words written on this site, it's an opinion, nothing more.

If you prefer to say I'm "spouting shite" because it makes you feel big & strong, and superior in your opinion, that's fine. I'm a big boy and can take it from strangers on the Internet.

Also, I just had a look at the net spend for Ipswich and they've apparently not broken any rules, and them buying Philogene doesn't appear to have anything to do with PSR, but you're welcome to your opinion. :-)

James - 66

Yep.

A 'toxic Goodison' is a bigger problem than some fans like to admit. If any, this is the time to get behind the team – no matter how bad they are.

James @70 Nothing big or strong about it. I am just a bit fed up of our own fans' negativity.

We all know we are in a dire position. Making negative stuff up is obviously your choice.

It's like a negative feeding frenzy on here. A win or draw might get 100 posts. A Dyche press conference 200 posts. A defeat gets 300 posts. It's just a bit tiring.

As for Ipswich and PSR, where did you look that up? How can buying a player not impact PSR?

Philogene was raised at Villa. After all those years they're cashing in on him. If they don't think he's worth keeping, that's good enough for me.

If Philogene and Potter are happy to go to their new clubs then sobeit, with respect it shows a lack of long-term foresight.
We are Everton, and we will come back to the top table but its going to take time.
The stadium and new owners will be the catalyst for great things and the envy of many.
Unfortunately we are in a bad place and need to win games which look unlikely at the moment.
I think this month, the transfer window and Tim, Jimmy, Yousef and Dwight coming back sooner than later may just save Dyches neck, that said I still expect him not to have his contract renewed and then we will see drastic changes.

James @66

I wonder what your experience of Goodison is. Yes, as widely reported, the fans are making their frustration known at the moment. rightly so. The footy has been garbage, but the man responsible for that is on borrowed time. Over the next few months when the chips are down, the Goodison faithful will (as they always have done) create an atmosphere that simply cannot be matched elswhere. They may well have a very jolly cheerful crowd at Ipswich. In fact, experience tells me they do, but Goodison shakes to its foundations when the fans are called upon to pull us out of the shite. The player will not experience anything like that at Portman road, or anywhere else for that matter.

And there is a very definite reason to believe Everton will stay up and Ipswich wont. They have played a game more than us, they have less points and their goal difference is inferior. Yes it's possible that Ipswich (and Wolves) can find a consistency that has eluded them all season, but History tells us that is highly unlikely. Even after our depressing, dreadful goal drought. its still advantage Everton

I don't believe the reasons you gave for a player choosing Ipswich over Everton would even occur to a player. Any player

I think it is foolish to be committing any significant money to transfers while the managerial situation remains uncertain. The risk is (again) spending money on players a new manager doesn't fancy. See also Man U. In any case, my strong impression is that we have no funds until the new stadium income stream arrives next season, some very highly paid players become out of contract and the PSR pressures are thus somewhat alleviated.

Colin # 75…

You say it's possible Wolves and / or Ipswich can find some consistency. I guess, like most of us, you look at both teams upcoming fixtures. Doesn't make pleasant reading for either of them.

In the next seven games Wolves have Newcastle (A), Chelsea (A), Arsenal (H), Aston Villa (H), Liverpool (A), Bournemouth (A), Fulham (H).

Ipswich have Brighton (H), Man City (H), Liverpool (A), Southampton (H), Aston Villa (A), Spurs (H) Man Utd (A). Let's be honest, who can see either team getting many points out of those fixtures?

Now before anyone says it, yes, I know our next few games are just as tricky, but if we can stay ahead of both Wolves and Ipswich, and maybe pull away from them, things might look a little rosier come the next international break.

Robert #55,

We didn't spend only £1.75M. We may have transferred cash for that amount but we spent over £30M on Beto and Chermiti. That's the commitment we entered into and the amount that will be amortised over their initial contracts.

That's what goes into the P&L. That's what goes into the PSR calculation. That's how football transfers work generally. There's a fee, there's an accounting treatment on the books, and there's a cash payment structure that is purely between the two clubs.

The cash payment structure wasn't to beat PSR. More likely it was to have enough cash to be able to pay the bills, ie, stay solvent.

But we did still spend that money, just as your home cost a lot more than your first month's mortgage payment.

That's a very fair point Ernie - but you can see what I mean in the context of the thread.

You raise another really important point too - that we haven't just been hindered in our business by PSR and arbitrary bureaucrats etc - we have had quite a challenge just to keep out of insolvency.

Anyway, it is a bit of a worry that Ipswich have now outbid us on a few players (including Philogene it now seems) - and have more scope to spend (or transfer cash) or both. It will have a big impact on the sorts of candidates who might be prepared to step into the helm in place of Dyche...

No matter what the payment structure, we’ve committed tens of millions on Beto and Chermiti and they’ve contributed sweet FA!
Coleman’s extension and Doucoure’s 160k a week extension were a waste of money too.

We’re in no position to make these kind of mistakes and it’s a major factor in putting us in real danger of relegation.

Bloody hell he’s gone as I was typing this!!

Robert, that was always my argument during the PSR issues. People blamed the PL - but it was those regulations that arguably saved us from the lunatic running the asylum. Mosh's mob took massive risks that threatened the existence of this club and all signs point to them only getting their act together when threatened by points deductions.

We failed the PSR test because we were being run unsustainably.

Beto just contributed a goal against Peterborough in the FA Cup Mike, hows that for sweet FA?! Now he will go back to Italy and we have zero strikers, so thats fun. But no worries Moyes will attract the very best