Everton and AS Roma to work on signing Wesley Franca from Brazil

Why would we sign him for €30M and loan him out to Roma?

Mark, I mentioned it the other day, but are we to be the junior partner in his marriage?

Are we to be Roma's feeder club, or vice versa, or are we to be equals? I'm intrigued to find out.

Maybe for Visa reasons?

We need a right back, we sign a right back, we loan him out to somebody else. Makes little sense to me.

How are Palace and Lyon doing with Europe and relegation?

He has 2 Brazil caps. Him going on loan to Roma isn't that far-fetched if we can't get a work permit.

It would be annoying when other clubs do mind...

Huw could be right.

Branca IS an Italian name after all – wasn't Luca Branca a heavy in the first Godfather film?

Maybe Roma gave us an offer we can't refuse?

Mark, it was Luca Brasi and he sleeps with the fishes.

Why waste a big chunk of our budget?

Sounds very far-fetched to me!

If AS Roma pay a loan fee of more than the first installment, how is it a waste of transfer fee, Dave?

Only Everton could have no decent right back and be involved in a story suggesting we spend millions on a right back on behalf of another club.

Sounds like the accountants are working overtime!

He sounds like the exact player we are looking for.

We don't need to be wasting are money on players for Roma when our squad is so thin.

If it's true, I don't reckon Moyes would be happy with it!!

Why don't Roma just buy him themselves?

Ian B has it exactly right. From a PSR perspective, it is a no-brainer if Roma's fee for loan is equal to the PSR calculation for the purchase this year which will be 1/4 or 1/5 of the transfer fee depending on the contract length.

If he turns out to be a good one, then we get the benefit of any future transfer fee. To me, this suggests that Roma are the feeder club as, in this situation, the future benefit would be toward Everton.

If there are visa issues for playing in the Premier League, due to him not having enough caps, but he is a potential superstar, then it makes loads of sense to loan him to Roma while he racks up enough international call-ups to get that visa.

We pay a cheaper price than we would for an established international, Roma cover the cost of the first instalment.
Surely this is the way the multi-club model is supposed to work?

You’re right Allen, I must’ve got confused with his sister, Fernet Branca!

Saluti!

Sounds to me the Friedkins and Moyes want him for us but we won't get a work permit.

We buy him and let's say we pay £8m for first instalment to the selling club and Roma pay us a £10m loan fee - nice little earner. Then when he has qualified we get him back.

That means we need a short term RB coming in - Lemina from Wolves or Coufal from WHU, on a free and probably won't cost us as much as Walker-Peters in signing on fee and wages. Maybe we get one of the 4 RBs Roma have on loan.

We can sell Patterson for £10m - £15m, so this lad works out at £15m - £20m overall.

He already has caps for Brazil so I don't think a work permit is the problem.

I believe Roma have a FFP problem and this is to help them get around it.

Seems ironic that we have a depleted squad because of PSR issues and this would come out of our budget.

The situation as I see it is that we enable Wesley for them and we get Celik on loan for a season. Gasperini doesn't even think Wesley is worth the asking price so it does not look a good deal for Everton.

I've never understood why Everton find it so difficult to secure work permits whilst most other Prem and Championship clubs bring in unknown young South American players with out a hitch.

It doesn't solve our immediate issue and what if he proves to be useless. £26M wasted on a player that can't play for us, no thanks.

I don't believe Patterson is worth £10M or at least we will not get that high of a fee for him. I'd say £4M-£6M tops.

Jay (18), I certainly don't know all the details about the visas but I thought the international caps situation involved some level of consistency over time (age group appearances may be a factor?) and not just be as simple as having gained a couple.

I would expect FFP to scrutinise the dealings of clubs which share owners to prevent circumvention and it would be disgusting (rather than ironic) if our meagre re-building budget was used to bolster the much more evenly-performing Roma squad.

Who is supposed to be better, Wesley or Celik?

Justin (19), why assume the worst? What if he turns out to be world class? Structuring the deal this way may be necessary and it potentially gives us more options to take on a stop-gap player for a season.

Roma fan here.

Roma is affected by FFP until this winter. After that, FFP obligations will decay. Gasperini, the new AS Roma manager, was about to bring in Wesley for Atalanta last season. Flamengo kept changing dates and numbers, a trick South American teams do always to delay or force more money out of the buyer. Atalanta lost patience, cancelled the agreement, and bought someone else.

Wesley is a player Gasperini knows well and wants in Roma. For this reason, Everton will likely make the purcahse and redirect him to Roma.

In this case, Everton will act as the feeder club. I know it doesn't make sense for you Everton fans and it'll probably stings if it happens, but let's be realistic and remember Roma is a club qualified in an European cup. Only a handful of points removed from a Champions League spot, even.

Thanks, Alex, for that information; however, given Everton own his contract, I'd argue that it is a great deal for us rather than us acting as a feeder.

If he turns out to be a world beater, then we can take him back and also sell him on at a nice profit. Puts us in control and helping out our own PSR issues.

Maybe its all coming from the same Top Level Budget (TLB) Jamie? TFG.

Welcome Alex. I have liked Roma since I lived and worked in Anzio for 2 years. Much preferred them to Lazio. Definitely the supporters.

Toffeetv are saying the loan contains an obligation for Roma to buy at the same price in a year's time.

If that is true then we would be using up £30M of our precious funds to shore up Roma.

It surely cannot be true, as this would be a Malcolm Glazer style catastrophic error.

I'd rather send Patterson or Dixon to Roma on loan, with or without an obligation to buy

There is some logic to the deal if there will be problems gaining a visa. He definitely fits the profile for a long term RB. However, I've heard a another report today saying he would go to Roma on a loan with a obligation to buy. So we would get nothing out of it except to help Roma fiddle their PSR while taking a huge chunk out of our spends.

If anyone wants to know who the junior club is in the hierarchy, this would give us the answer. Lets hope its bollocks unless we're getting him back.

Kevin (24), as I understand it it wouldn’t be £30 million, it would be a quarter or a fifth of that, and Roma would give it back to us as a loan fee. If what Alex says at 21 above is true then we’d probably get the remaining debt transferred to Roma before the current financial year finishes anyway.
However, Alex, where Roma currently are is immaterial and I would be furious if we didn’t strengthen at right back very soon. TFG absolutely cannot play favourites or they will lose out in the long run. I’m all for collaboration between the various TFG clubs so we can all benefit but I reckon Evertonians will fully show their displeasure if our club is disadvantaged by not getting the players we need to be competitive next season.

Here's an idea. Couldn't we just buy a right back ? I realise it's a bit " out there" but I'm told other clubs do it.

Si yes that is a much more hopeful scenario. I'd forgotten how these fees are paid over the course of the contract.

It sounds like money laundering doesn't it? We buy him, Roma pay us a portion of the fee for a one year loan, then pay the rest of the fee as an obligation to buy kicks in. Roma get the player they want but don't appear to have bought him at the outset.

Why would Roma take Patterson or Dixon. Both league one players at best

It all sounds a bit complicated for a simple soul like me,dare I say a bit Machiavellian.
Whatever happened to sticking a few extra quid in his boot?
I know it’s probably down to work permits/visas etc but the likes of Chelsea seem to avoid these annoying complications with all the young overseas players they sign almost every week or so.
Give me old time corruption every day!

Can't say that I'm really arsed about Roma, Ryan.

Alex #21, great info. Cheers.

We in the US have gotten to see this guy several times in the CWC. He's a blast to watch. Relentless attacker up the flank.

Kevin, for accounting and PSR purposes we would not be using up 30m. The cost of the player in the accounts is divided by the length of his contract. So this year if a 5 year contract the cost to us would be 6m. If Roma give us 6m then it is a status quo and doesn't affect us in terms of psr.

Thanks for the info Alex. It’s well known that Italians scream, something that TFG, have already discovered for themselves.

The English allegedly just take things on the chin, especially us Evertonians, who let our dearly departed chairman, completely divide the fan base, and slowly lead us to going thirty years without a trophy. (Completely unheard of for a club of Everton’s stature - check the records)

Roma, might have PSR troubles, but anyone who knows anything about Everton, will also be aware that they have also had a lot of problems with regards the same issue.

It might make sense to Roma fans, because they are in Europe, but if it also makes sense to TFG, then our completely silent owners, might just reignite our own fan base, who are currently waiting patiently, because they are extremely grateful that these Americans helped pull us out of an hole?

I’m intrigued. The last thing I want is another lying romantic fool, (what a fool - he kidded thousands😡) who only kept his mouth shut when things weren’t going that well (coming seventh was brilliant 🤦‍♂️) but because TFG, have been so quiet, then the only thing they can be viewed on is their actions.

Some believe they are doing great work behind the scenes but most of us will probably judge them when we see the strength of the squad at the end of this transfer window.

Good luck to Roma, Alex, even though I thought your last paragraph was a little bit condescending. “Kopite behaviour”, as it is more commonly viewed, by us Evertonians, mate!

Just wanted to thank you for the welcoming posts.

And make no mistake, I hope to see a synergy between Roma and Everton. My opinion is that the teams should be equal and collaborate within the limits imposed by the UEFA. The Red Bull group and all their teams do it all the time, so why shouldn't we? Hopefully, Roma can help Everton grow, and vice versa.

There are rumors here in Italy that the Friedkins are not done buying teams and they might look to purchase a club in Spain. If that will come true, then it's clear they want a network much like the City Group or Red Bull.

With regards TFG, I don’t think we have heard a murmur, never mind a rumour, but I suppose it’s still very early days.

Alex, your last paragraph doesn't surprise me at all.

The Friedkins were among the failed bidders for the NBA's iconic Boston Celtics, and they are strongly interested in buying a National Hockey League expansion franchise in their hometown of Houston.

They are clearly diving into sports in a huge way.

Why don't Roma just loan him for a year from the Brazilian club with an obligation to buy?

In January, Roma bought a new RB - Devyn Rensch - from Ajax for €6m. The fee was so low because he would have been out of contract this summer.

We had been heavily linked for a while (also many other clubs around Europe) but couldn't buy at the time due to PSR and other issues.

Maybe the plan has always been that Rensch will be Everton's new RB (maybe on loan this summer) and Wesley is earmarked for Roma. I think Wesley will find it easier to acclimatise to Serie A than he would the Premier League - albeit I think he'll become much the better of the two players over time.

Keep us updated on Roma Alex.

I agree with you and said from the start of the TFG takeover, that I would like to see collaboration between Everton and AS Roma. There is no reason we can't. As you point out, the Red Bull and City Groups do it.

I'm looking forward to welcoming "I Giallorossi" at our new stadium next month. Hopefully a few will make the trip from Italia, but no doubt there will a few who are living in the UK as well.

I’ve always felt there was something a bit off with TFG. Why the complete silence? Why don’t they show themselves? Make a statement, visit BMD, do a flyover with a Spitfire. Just let us know what you plan on doing with our club!

As I previously stated (post#2), what is our status going to be in this union? Spouse? Junior partner? Money launderer? Jilted ex etc?

I hope, and pray, that these aren’t another Glazer type mob.

Dennnis

Riiightt but that doesn’t answer my question

Ryan, I broadly agree. We'll see this summer if any Championship clubs come in for Dixon on loan (or to buy) but he may have to drop down to the third tier. He's not going to get games in the Premier League.

As for Patterson, he's just not very good. We'll struggle to get a fee as who would pay more than about £3m for a player who has failed to nail down the RB spot at a club in absolutely dire need of a new RB.

Colin, I also think its a bit odd that TFG haven't shown themselves.

However, with the Roma game approaching at BMD, that may present an ideal opportunity to make an appearance - two clubs under the same ownership and in the same place.

While I appreciate that the modern world allows meetings to happen easily via technology, having senior management from both clubs physically present at the same time and location offers a perfect opportunity to discuss strategy. It would seem entirely logical to make use of it.

Several reasons why we might do this 1) Roma might not have as big a budget as us this season due to restrictions? It would be win win for both clubs if a decent loan fee is paid 2) as others have mentioned he might be the one we want (he is certainly my first pick at RB) but can’t get a visa. Some rumours suggesting Zelik will be loaned to us subsequently. Could prove astute business.

You can guarantee that if any club is slapped down for this kind of behaviour, it would be Everton.

Colin @44,

I think they will show at the new stadium. My assumption, and it is just that, is that they left the leaving of Goodison to us.

Also, and again, this is just reading between the lines rather than knowing, I think it is their modus operandi. Then install a board to run their multiple companies for them. I think they will be hands off apart from the odd appearance. They have their mouth piece through the CEO and management team.

That's just my guess by the way. They will step in when they need to and I'm sure there is weekly, if not daily communication between those they have empowered to run Everton behind the scenes.

I cannot see any reason why there would be any UK visa difficulties for Wesley. If you look at the profile of the huge numbers of overseas players coming into UK football (many from obscure leagues), Wesley (with senior caps for Brazil) should be fine.

Not suggesting that they would, Ryan #45. However, if they did, I wouldn't care why. Although, I'd be rather surprised - pleasantly so.

You suggested we loan them Dixon or Patterson.

And I asked why when they are both League One standard.

This is Everton, he'll probably be badly injured in his first Roma game and will spend the rest of the season in Finch Farm sick bay.

No, I didn't Ryan. It wasn't a suggestion, merely expressing a preference compared to the proposed deal we've heard rumoured. Purely looking at it from an Evertonian perpective, not a Roma view. I doubt that either of the aforementioned players would even be a passing consideration for Roma. However, that fact that you consider them both to be of merely League One [is that Div. 3 in old money?] standard is entirely irrelevant.

Alex @ 21, I really doubt Everton will be a feeder club for Roma.

With the commercial uplift from the new stadium and EPL TV revenue, we are likely be a far more wealthy club within the next 2 - 3 years.

I would also respectfully suggest that we are a bigger and more successful club. Roma have win 3 Serie A titles in their history while Everton have won 9 championships.

I am all for smart loans and transfers between the clubs, but Roma’s FFP issues are not our problem.

League one is div 3 in old money yep.

Steve # 56, agree about the future trajectory for Everton vs Roma. All being well we should be the richer of the two before too long.

That said, Roma are much better established at the top end of Serie A than we are in the Prem - and much better placed to challenge for Champions League places (in what is a pretty weak Serie A).

I don't know what that means for revenue - but I think most football fans across Europe would see Roma as the bigger "name" (whatever that means) with more cache / glamour.

I'm not really sure where that takes us since there's usually a clear top dog in the other franchises - like City, Girona and Troyes etc; Brighton, St Gilloise and soon Hearts; and Leipzig, Salzburg and Liefering etc.

Whatever the case, I don't think the Wesley situation should ring too many alarm bells at the moment. It is very early days.

Robert #51

I don't know the visa requirements but I remember reading an article a few years back which suggested that they had been relaxed to widen the scope for bringing in players.

It's also hard to credit the suggestion that we're helping Roma out of a financial black hole. I thought UEFA had moved to a "salary ratio" approach as a means of ensuring clubs remain financially prudent. So assuming Roma cover his wages whilst he's on loan... where's the benefit to them?

And of course it makes little or no sense that given the number of positions Everton have to fill that we use any of our limited budget to help Roma out despite the common ownership.

I'd file this story under "clickbait" for now.

Ryan @53, how have you come to that judgement on the 20 year old Roman Dixon?

Patterson doesn't seem cut out for it, but we've watched enough to see that. But at 23, maybe he could still surprise.

As we're on right backs, a couple of media outlets randomly reporting on a £20m release clause for Denzil Dumfries from Inter. I've no idea if there's a thing in that.

A few things Danny

Watching him play for U21’s
Our track record of our young players mostly going to div one or div two
He can’t get in ahead of the dreadful Patterson

To date, the Championship scouts and England youth set up are with with Ryan on this one. The career trajectory so far is for a player destined to drop down to the third tier. Someone might yet take a chance on him at a higher level though.

Each year there are lofty expectations on here for academy players who soon disappear - sometimes outside of professional football altogether.

He won't be a starter Ryan. But then neither was 20 year old Seamus. A loan to Blackpool, then played more as a right midfielder until he established himself at right back, when he must have been about 23??

I'm not saying Dixon will follow suit, just that I don't think we can pass judgement just yet.

He impressed in his debut against Tottenham. The lad is rapid.

Robert- who was the midfielder we had recently who fans said was the next best thing? Went to Plymouth? Where is he now?

I think you probably mean Lewis Warrington, Ryan. He's a very neat and tidy footballer and did well in our U21s but is now building up his career at Leyton Orient in the third tier.

Years ago, I used to get all excited about our academy prospects and pencilled them into the 2nd XI or even 1st XI as I tried to figure out how our squad might develop.

The reality is that the ones who make it have made their first team debut between age 16 and 19, have been with the England (or similar) youth set up and been heavily capped at the different age groups and / or been on a decent standard loan by about age 20. And even some of those don't make it - the standard is so high.

It's not just us either by the way, the same principles apply to all Premier League clubs who release large numbers of young players each year. These aren't bad players either, some having performed very strongly in the academy and some of whom bounce back to the Premier League like Lundstram, Forshaw and Broadhead.

Ryan, are you thinking Lewis Warrington?

That was on loan, he's in League One with Leyton Orient now.

I see Robert can answer for himself but... yeah

Just on that issue of proclaiming young full backs aren't going to make it. There was another young full back a few years ago that no one thought was going to make it, went on loan to Bolton and then sold for buttons to Wigan, lad's name Antonee 'Jedi' Robinson. He had loads of technical and positional weaknesses but he was rapid and still is and probably one of the best left-backs in the Premier League.

I'm not necessarily blaming the powers that be here for releasing him because tbh no one or not many were saying he was going to be a stand out. He was in or around the age group that included Ledson, Jonjoe, Dowell, Tom Davies, Liam Walsh, Callum Connolly and they were all considered way above him in the pecking order.

He played as far as I'm aware in no England age group Robert as all the above did. All the above are all still in the game but none of them are close to being in the Premier League

Just goes to show, and back to Dixon, he has got the physical tools as Danny alluded to - he just might need patience and development that we weren't prepared to give to Jedi.

There was another right back in the 80s who also had technical and positional issues - name was Gary Stevens. I seem to remember Colin Harvey when he had him in the reserves saying that they had to work on him constantly about where he needed to be on the pitch at any given point as this is something that he struggled with but that he had such athletic ability that he had a chance to succeed and the rest is history!

Yes thanks Robert and Peter.

We have many players through the academy who will and have had good careers in football.

But as you say, not many progress to pl standard.

I don’t think any of our u21s bar maybe Graham will make it above league one

John # 67, Robinson didn't play in the England youth set up but briefly played in the USA youth set up (before, I think, being fast tracked into the senior squad).

He did, however, secure a Championship level loan by age 20 (Bolton) and then again at 21 (Wigan). He played 136 Championship games before getting his chance in the Premier League.

So he does still fit in with the broad principles I described above.

Crucially, he only ever played 24 games at Everton u21s level before Championship scouts wanted him. Dixon (also now 20) has now played 38 games at that level across, I think, two seasons. He is absolutely crying out for regular games at a decent level (which the u21s isn't) - and hopefully he gets that via a loan this summer.

We were unlucky with Robinson. He went to Wigan for peanuts but with a sell on clause which Everton never collected because Wigan went into administration.

Colin Harvey. Now there was a coach John @67.

He's also the one who asked Peter Reid why he was sitting deep. Reid apparently responded that he was protecting the defence.

Harvey told him to leave that to the back four and go to the ball. We call it press now.

But to your point John, some players just need a bit of time and development. There are very few Rooney's out there.

Ryan # 68, if you apply these loose principles to the current squad - the players best placed to breakthrough are:

- Armstrong (probably after another Championship loan)
- Graham (probably after a Championship / League 1 loan)
- Olayiwola
- Lukjanciks
- Tsangou

We loan out very, very few youth players compared with other Premier League clubs - including those relegated last season.

Whilst the u18s is a route to the first team, the u21s is just a place to stagnate and decline. The loan system is the only way to develop after u18s.

John (41), that’s a good question. I can only come up with 2 possible answers.
1) He isn’t actually expected to remain at Roma, and there is some good reason for this convoluted process.
2) Roma desperately want him and haven’t currently got the ability to buy due to PSR, but a loan to buy deal wouldn’t necessarily prevent someone from coming in and gazumping the deal before next summer.
The visa situation is seemingly debatable. Does anyone know definitively whether we could get a visa for the player or not?

John (67), Yes there are many players who don’t initially stand out going back to Tommy Wright who was an inside forward before some tried him at right back, Tony Hibbert was the same, not very good going forward but a very good defensive full back. Antonee didn’t stand out yet Everton were getting a decent fee for him from an Italian club before he failed a medical over his ticker, which turned out not to be as serious as it was, doing well with Fulham now although he is still better at going forward than he is defensively.

Maybe Dixon needs patience as you say, he has pace and can put in a good centre in but defensively he has an awful lot to learn although that athletic ability could be a big help to him but right now I wouldn’t bet on it——but that’s just my opinion!

Such a sensible post John@67.

Technical ability will only take you so far in a country like England, so unless you also have the physical attributes, then it’s highly likely that you will eventually have to drop down the divisions, to make a career in our country.

Lately I’ve been wondering why our academy, doesn’t work a lot more on this side of the game when developing young players, and my own conclusion is that the coaching might just not be good enough.

I’ve heard a lot of clubs go for athleticism over talent when selecting young players, but I find it intriguing because they don’t seem to have the coaching ability to turn these young athletes into decent technical footballers?

Right backs eh. Dave, you mentioned the highly unsung Tommy Wright, great full back.

I recall a game, maybe 1967, against Chelsea when he was out. We blooded a kid called Dave Turner and he had a blinder. If I remember he was subbed to an ovation from all sides of the ground. Don't think he ever turned out for us again. Funny old game.

As we have seen the trouble that can be caused by an owner having more than 1 club in a European competition, which sees both Lyon and Palace embroiled in this mess. I don't want to see closer collaboration between us and Roma or any other club for that matter, split loyalties never work.

Our ambition should be to be in a European competition very quickly and as it stands at the moment if Roma qualified for the same European competition then its Everton who would lose its place as UEFA always look at the records in Europe of the respective teams.
So I hope the Friedkin group get their house in order before this becomes a problem.

I remember discussing this before Brian

United and City got approval from UEFA for that scenario.

If I recall, as long as there is no direct into day to day decision making of both clubs.

So my simple interpretation, is that Dan Friedkin would have to remove himself as Chairman of either Everton or AS Roma.

Don't quote me on that, as we're moving into the murky world of UEFA politics.

Danny

As far as I am aware Textor has no day to day involvement in decision making at Palace but under UEFA rules he is part owner of 2 clubs.

Brian (77), could be wrong but I think the ‘lesser rated’ club drops into the next level of so it’s only disastrous if both were to qualify for the Europa Conferencce League as there is nothing below it to play in.
I presume the top rated club in the lesser competition then goes up a rung.
I think we are quite a way off qualifying for the Champions League so, for now, as long as the clubs don’t both qualify for the Conference competition things won’t be too bad.
I’d rather collaboration that strengthened both clubs than no collaboration at all.

As far as I know, if two teams with the same owner both qualify for the same European competition, then it’s the league placings which determine which club plays in the European competition in question. So for example, we finish fifth in the premier league, and Roma finish sixth in Serie A, then it’s us who would compete in the following seasons europa league, and Roma move down to the conference league. European records have no say in the matter. What’s happened with Palace is complicated, because Lyon finished higher in their league than Palace did in the premier league, so by rights palace should be demoted to the conference league and Forest upgraded to the Europa league. However, with Lyon being relegated due to financial issues, and also Textor apparently selling up, god knows who will be in what competition next season. I think Lyon insist they should be in the Europa league because they finished in a higher league placing than Palace, and Textor still had an interest in both clubs at the seasons end.

I think the situation with Palace and Lyon is potentially further complicated as one of Palace's shareholders is also involved in Brondby who are in the Euro Conference League and Brondby finished 3rd in their league...so possibly bye bye Palace.

We'll just have to win the Premier League and hope Roma don't win their league or finish in the top whatever number it is in Italy

Rob

According to the guy on Sky he said UEFA will consider each clubs European record as part of their decision.

You're probably right Brian. UEFA are like the premier league haven't got a Scooby what they're doing!!