Will TFG offer David Moyes a new deal in the summer?

ToffeeWeb catnip...

Saves all the admin when Roma qualify for Europe.

Keep our best players and buy 2 or 3 class players for next season with Moyes in charge and I think we could get right up there in the top 4-6 places.

Do you realise what you've done??

There's the peaceful weekend gone!

One other interesting aspect to that article, it virtually confirms Aznou and Dibling were not his choice, and that Angus the Great may be being reined in this Summer. Once Moyes regains full control, I'd expect this chap to be out the door.

We need to sign mid-twenties players with a bit of pace? What's wrong with keeping George?

Failure to reach certain benchmarks like League position or Cup exits can trigger immediate termination, although that maybe, never mind the quality feel the width.

For now though, the next 7 games could determine the outcome.

I'm sure Moyes, will get a new contract but, I'd only expect him to get an extra year, which will take him up to 15 years service by the end.

What longevity, I just hope he can win us a trophy and make it all worthwhile.

Failure to beat Brentford and the Redshite, or, at the very least to perform well and not lose, may well shift the narrative. We, for the greater part, are a tough watch.

Continued positive results help overcome that concern, but the margins between success and dour predictability are narrow.

Potentially, Moyes own long term aspirations are in his own hands twixt now and season end. It will be an interesting period.

Two words very, very rarely used in the same sentence.

Spot on.

Performance linked contracts should be the norm in the PL and especially at Everton where we have wasted millions in payoffs to managers and their entourage who should have never been given the job in the first place.

As for Moyes he has exceeded my expectation so far and seems to be able to handle "big" personalities so he has earned the chance to take us forward.

Concentrate young man

If you are TFG, why would you upset the applecart now, just when things are moving in the right direction?

TFG will surely want to give him an extension to hopefully keep the steady progress going.

How long is really on Moyes, will he go for a 1 or 2 year extension?

The summer will be huge, Moyes has now raised expectations, which is what we all want, now he has to go on and realise the expectations, European football would bring its own extra pressures, if we were to get it, and investment would have to be bigger if we did, so I'd say next season is where he will be judged.

The Friedkin Group have opted not to put either Everton or Roma in a blind trust to demonstrate a separation of ownership, a compliance route previously taken by Manchester City and Manchester United as they are also both part of multi-club groups, but are confident they will not have any issues.

Sources have disclosed that the Friedkin Group has an alternative structural solution in place that will enable both Everton and Roma to take part if both qualify for the same competition.

The snide comment about knife to gun fight, or an ultra low block, that existed pre Moyes is fucking boring. The idea we are just staying up is for the birds.

Players and managers are being awarded monthly achievements, as things are moving forward. Next season genuinely allows us to go for a different class of player that was a dream.

If you cant enjoy that after a 5 year hunger march that nearly saw this club go to the wall, then God fucking help you.

We are all emotionally invested, but fucking hell crack a smile.

I know two were nominated, did they win them?

"why right here on this website"

"In the last 5 minutes"

Where?

All recognition for being decent. All positivity.

Rather than Everton in relegation scrap, Psr breach, "and finally Eerton lose again".

Any successful environment, needs positivity. Even here.

But for technical reasons, it won't display at the top of the pile. So, while it looks like news, smealls like news comes from a newspaper... it's not really news -- it's pure supposition. Kinda like adding 2 and 2 together...

I mean, Moyes is doing well at the moment, TFG will no doubt be pleased he is doing well... but probably not well enough to run up against Roma. So the "safe pair of hands" has done his job. Stands to reason they might give him a new contract.

But, until they actually do, it's just a rumour... like the plethora of transfer rumours that are a dime a dozen at the moment. My inclination is to hold off for the time being, see what happens over the last 7 games of the season, and then wait for the bricks to fall into place in the Summer.

There is a risk that we are getting carried away following the excitement and atmosphere of the Chelsea game. Ahh! Wiser counsel is creeping into the reckoning.

Players and managers are being awarded monthly achievements. Not just yet, Ian. They've only been nominated.

"There is a nagging fear among some of the Everton faithful that we are settling for competent mediocrity because it feels safe, rather than pursuing the modern, progressive football that the elite clubs now demand from younger, more expansive managers who can relate better to the younger players forming the heart of their teams going forward."

Firstly where does "mediocrity" come from ? were pushing for Europe in the Managers first season, how can that be mediocre ?

Progressive football ?, if that means being hard to beat, which we really are, then I would call that progress. Also theres the additional points on the board.

Younger more expansive Managers ? hmm theres a long list of them in the prem who have been sacked because they weren't up to the job.

Players relating to a younger Manager ? utter nonsense, players respond to a Manager who knows what he is doing, one with experience of handling big players which Moyes has.

Be really careful what you wish for.

David Moyes will be given a contract extension, he will also be given money to spend wisely, which he will do in the Summer.

I only see exciting times ahead and in Moyers I trust.

Progressive football does not equal being hard to beat bud.

Big corporates just don't work like that.

The big corporate across the park gave Klopp over £200 million in his last season.

I'm not aware of any "alternative structural solution" that has been publicly sanctioned by UEFA.

But if you've read the esk's article about their business set up, I find it hard to believe they haven't planned for this occurring.

John, they were obviously comfortable that the following for £145m were low risk buys, or possibly agreements/smoozing were in place long before Klopp had signalled his intention to go.

Dominik Szoboszlai, Alexis Mac Allister, Ryan Gravenberch, Wataru Endo

We are a club outside of what 40 or 50 clubs in Europe. We are unlikely to make Champions league.

We want better plsyers. The above for Liverpool were sure fire things, our pool of players we are in for wont be.

Youve engaged talks for a top talent. He's prepared to talk.

Player/agent - who is the manager over my 4 year contract?

Club - we arent really sure. But we have a boss new stadium.

Player - see you later.

I can't imagine any player asking that question tbh Ian.

As long as there are enough noughts on the contract they couldn't care less imo.

I think we will probably get another 10pts, whether that will be enough to get us into Europe is anyones guess. It's going to be very tight.

Moyes always had an eye for a player who was undoubtedly gifted, but lost his way a bit, or not getting his chance, a lot like Dewsbury-Hall.

Love us to get Wilson, but I think loads will be in for him being a free, but seems a good pro, and might want to be a key player rather than just another body at a Man Utd, Liverpool or Aston Villa.

He's done well, but, unusually for me, I've been to more home games than away this season and I've seen more disappointment and frustration than success. If I was lucky enough to live in the NW still and hold a season ticket, I think I'd be disappointed.

I saw the wins v Brighton, Palace, Fulham and Chelsea and the poor performances against Brentford, Bournemouth and Newcastle. I was at the United game and thought we played well and were unlucky.

I was lucky enough to be at the Chelsea game and we were magnificent.

I feel like we coulda shoulda woulda done better given the players we have.

But Moyes has done okay so “grudging respect”.
Let's see how the remaining games pan out.

But in the end, it is us who pay this charade. We are the payers and fall for Sky et al every fucking year.

Imagine a national fans union that said "enough"! Sadly the money men are not scared of that dream here.

We believe Germany et al are rubbish now compared to the glorious Premier League. We get the best players... Well.

The idea that it's just money, isn't right. It might be for some, but most will get what they're worth in any case, so the environment, location, facilities, team mate, manager will all play a part. Certainly the financial bit will be put to bed, before the player is involved.

Some could easily go for more. Garner signed a new deal because he's happy. Financially could he have refused the deal, forced the club to sell for a reduced fee, and trousered 50% more? I'd think he could have.

Beyond Pep and Simeone, there are no long-term managers in this sport anymore.

Moyes has done what Moyes does, a steady hand on the tiller, flirting with Europe sometimes, some good performances, 1 or 2 great performances, some bang average stuff.

TFG know nothing about us as a club (I don't mean finances, I mean the heart and soul), on paper they'll look at the situation and think yeah he's done a good job which to be fair over the last 15 months he has.

Talk of £100M for transfers? Well thats the Sky/TNT money allocated. Nothing from their coffers. I think they'll be more than happy to give him another deal and plod along top 10ish.

Me personally, I want owners that will go balls out for trophies, League titles and regular Champions League football and bucket loads if ambition. We'll find out in the summer which way we're headed.

Do you really have to wait until summer to answer the question..."Are TFG "balls out" type owners"?

It is a results-based business, but players still want some outline of what the plan is.

Emery is able to provide that. Howe till now, was able to provide that. It might be meaningless, but it could be the difference of getting deals done, to failing.

Everton has history of missing out on transfer deals.

I"m showing the kind, patient element of my personality that the missus keeps telling me I should have.

Unfortunatey, when it comes to Everton, I fall at the first hurdle!

Martin @ 27, Moyes will be given money that he will spend wisely? If you mean buying older players no longer wanted by their current team, then I fully understand.

I don't want players and management achievements, I want Everton winning things. Or, at the very least, having a damn good go at winning things.

Moyes hasn't exactly got a huge trophy haul to his name, has he?

Give him the money and he will improve us more than he already has.

We all want Everton winning things.

What manager with a huge trophy haul are you suggesting?

Reality is you don't go from near bankruptcy and annual down to the wire relegation scraps, to trophy parades in 12 months.

Oh the boredom of being in a fight for European qualification There's nothing like going into the last 7 games hoping other teams can pull off a draw to save your PL status!!!

oh them good old days eh !!!

Do you honestly think you can go from nothing to winning trophies in 12 months?

And when you have achieved that, your not going to get monthly acknowledgements along the way?

So what you want is instant success, with a gang of kids, and that no one notices. Id stick to euro millions, rather than football. The odds are better.

Moyes second spell could outlast his first...

Are there any managers in the Prem, Pep, Howe and Arteta excepted, who have been at their club for 4 years?

I remember the last guy that tried that..

Basically bet our existence on champions league places because he thought he could throw money at it.

I’m amazed you think that’s the way to go?

The richest club in the premier league (barcodes) can’t get anywhere near it because of the closed door policy.

If it was a fair dick swinging contest, we’d be up there. Unfortunately, the premier league have “policies”.

Nostalgic, but window-cleaner Roly Howard, 33 years at Marine.

Whether you love or hate him we have to acknowledge he doesn't win things and Imo has been a very lucky man that we live in an era where safety (money) is more important than trophies. Moyes may well be the best ever at that.

I have been one if the biggest critics of DM on here and I really don't want to live another decade of nothing football. I love Everton, and have loved them for 45 years, but I don't love this Everton.

Beating Chelsea was fantastic, gave me a it of a buzz again. Maybe Moyes is finally letting go of his shackles. But then I remembered how often I have thought that before.

We will lose to an average Liverpool. When that happens I hope everyone remembers that perennial feeling of going to work the next day and having to face the music. Then think about another decade of that.

If by some miracle that doesn't happen and we win? Maybe the shackles are well and truly off, but my guess is it's only temporary so hold off any new contract until we can be sure.

If we don't, in 5 years time our youth teams will be made up of 30 year old journeymen who have been given expensive face lifts, botox and collagen to keep them young looking.

Why are we discussing Spurs on this site?

He inherited a club battling relegation, as they had been for the previous few years, and within weeks of taking over, he had completely put to bed any fear of relegation, which is the last thing TFG could afford.

So far, with 7 games left, we are sitting 8th in the league with an outside chance of Champions League football. Also, I am sure they now realize that, if they had not let the recruitment team follow the model of bringing in so many young players who were virtually untested, then we might be in an even stronger position.

The inclusion of Dewsbury-Hall and Grealish made a big difference and I am sure TFG will take on board the fact that Moyes has achieved this Premier League position without his main centre-back for most of the season.

Also, he's had 2 of his most influential players away at the Afcon tournament for 5 weeks and has lost Grealish till the end of the season.

So rather than ask the question: Should Moyes get an extension to his contract? -- Maybe we should ask why shouldn't he be given an extension?

The other plus point is the players really like him and all admit how he has improved them individually.

I'm sure those players who are playing regularly will sing any manager's praises, it's the ones who aren't playing that we should hear from.

In response to "Why shouldn't he be given an extension", I'd ask why do we need to right now? I struggle to believe that any club is going to try and poach him or indeed that he would let himself walk from this job again.

Can I ask why you consider that "an outside chance of qualifying for Champions League"?

I would give him a year tops on performance rated to keep him keen and hungry. Ridiculous giving him a 3- to 5-year deal. He's had millions out of us.

I still don't trust him in his judgement and handling of top players though. For every Arteta, Cahill or Pienaar, we had to put up with a Beatie, Castillo, Van de Meyde... or a Danish centre-back who couldn't head a ball.

Every single Premier league manager has gone through that.

Even Guardiola Klopp and to a lesser extent Arteta have all signed players who haven't been up to it.

Let's be fair love him or hate him Moyes has transformed the club, I don't know how many times in the past at this stage of the season we've all been worried sick about where we are getting our next win from..

Hitting the 40 point mark with 10 games to spare is massive in my opinion, it's slow steady progress and that's down to Moyes, no one else, I'll say this as well it's probably the first time in years we will go into a home derby as favourites, the bookies will tell you the same.

We've absolutely nothing to fear from anyone and that includes them bastards.

Everton was never gonna be a quick fix for any manager, but let's face it, most of us on here didnt have us down to be chasing a European place at this stage of the season, I included had us down to be finishing 14th or thereabouts.

So kudos to Moyes for that.

One final thought question to the Moyes bashers, can I have your thoughts on our new manger who's gonna be parading a trophy around the HD in the near future.

Answers on a postcard please.

You can have all the fancy tactics and moves in the world but if the players are not good enough the directions are useless.

3 points off a possible 5th CL spot, so that is still a possibility, and not as far fetched as some believe, if you look at other teams fixtures.

European football in uefa, or conference more likely, but still alot to fall in place.

Either of them surely mean he would be offered at the least a 1-2 year extension, to offer certainty and stability going into the summer for existing players and targets.

The other scenario, we don't qualify for any European football, which before the season started wouldn't have been seen as a failure, but where we are now, surely means Moyes has to show he can deliver.

It will be next season where the scrutiny will increase, European football or not, it won't be Moyes done good in a short space of time, it will be has Moyes kicked us on, are we improving are we competing.

Everton 12/5

liverpool 11/10

Best odds available

I have a dream

The streets are paved in gold.

Not that he won any trophies with Everton of course.

What trophies are awarded for acknowledgements? I must have missed those. So, if you are expecting Moyes to start winning trophies on a regular basis with Everton, I think you should stick to the euro millions yourself

Not many would win a trophy within al 12 months of joining a club. Top clubs apart.

A bedding in period required.

We can only hope it's not another 12 year bedding in period that ends without a trophy.

I agree in the space of a year we’ve come on massive compared to Dyche/lampard, but I don’t believe he will or can push us to the top, who can ? That’s for the club to find.

Fortunately, Matt Hughes is a pure bullshitter.

He has written at various times that the club was going into administration, the club had run out of money to complete the stadium, the stadium would be £150M over budget, rival clubs were suing us over £375M, the UK government was investigating 777 Partners, and we faced a third points deduction.

He was made redundant by the Daily Mail and washed up at The Guardian, where he is still writing fiction.

Unfortunately, your attempt to persuade us that Moyes has only managed us for 12 months rather than 13 years in total is not working.

Instant success... we'd settle for generational success at this point.

Brilliant post. I'm glad someone is keeping an account. Great work!

Name me one trophy laden manager who'd be in a rush to manage Everton anytime soon.

Moyes has steadied the ship quicker than anyone could have imagined, and to me that's progress, I know you don't like Moyes and you're totally entitled to your opinion, but seriously who would you like to see manage the club.

I don't know if you are a match going fan or not, but nearly every fan near me in that ground are more than happy with the job that Moyes is doing,and I'm talking about men near my age and above 66 by the way. It's so hard for the likes of us to be winning trophies, the prem lge has seen to that, apart from Palace and Newcastle in the last couple of seasons, they're monopolised by the big clubs.

Ancelotti came here.

The trick for clubs like us, is to get them before they are trophy laden.

I reckon Fabregas will be managing in the Prem in next two seasons, probably the season after next.

Different players, different owners, different opposition. In snakes & ladders terms, Moyes had to start again at the bottom of the Premier league rung, for a second time. For a second time he looks capable of delivering European football.

In the time that he left till his comeback, we spent about ~£800m on shite, had a revolving door of managers, two points deductions, a broken academy, numerous relegation scrapes, and had slipped even further behind the 'top 4'. A footballing laughing stock.

Everton is not an elite club. That is uncomfortable for some. But when we win a trophy, it will be the first time in our history that the club has done it from not being a big 5 club in the country.

As a football equivalent, we are Chelsea or City in the 80s. And how many trophies were they picking up before the money?

You and Annika can belittle Moyes all you want. But he was the one that got his team into Europe, and he was the one that won a trophy. What were Everton doing in that period? Bus parades, fire works, and shitting ourselves from crises to crises. The only thing being lifted was a black dog.

Ive said it before, that there are green shoots at Everton football club. Things are getting better. Let him build the side. Let us get players on the pitch that are capable of winning trophies. Until we do, the debate on whether Moyes is a winner is pointless. It as pointless as the trophies lifted since 2013, or the period 96 to 2002.

Campbell

Rooney

Radzinski

Gravesen

Yobo

Carsley

Ferguson

Osman

Weir

Unsworth

Stubbs

Moyes delivered European football? He got us into the qualifying round of the European Cup which we lost and we were quickly knocked out of the second competition in the same season, we then flirted with the second completion and stayed in contention to be in the best of the rest, had a well paid safe job with Everton and knew how well the supporters loved the club, much more than he did, supported the move to Kirkby along with Kenwright— a move that we had to give up because not only was it not viable but would have been a disaster, but left for his big chance with United where he was quickly fucked off and now we have him again— he is a very lucky man but not a winning one.

Very few of those players were approaching their peak. Weir, Stubbs, Unsworth, Ferguson and Campbell were finished within 24 months of his appointment.

Rooney sold under neath him, Gravesen a better offer in Madrid, and Radzinski slunk off to London.

The players he inherited, wouldn't have filled a 5 a side team, never mind a squad capable of winning trophies.

David would have won us a trophy if he inherited a trophy winning squad.

12 years worth

Apart from KDH he inherited the side that smashed Chelsea.

It was all set up for him.

Shouldn't be a 12 year wait again.

What's kind of time frame would you put on any manager winning silverware at Everton?

If this was Moyes or any other managers first stint at the club, fans would be kicking off that he hadn't been offered a new deal already.

That's why I was against him coming back, he'll never be fully backed !

I still wake up in a cold sweat over those harrowing shreddings in Bucharest and LIsbon.

The only tournament he ever won was the one every self-respecting club fights like fuck to avoid playing in.

Richest failure in sport.

100% not 12 years, David

Yes, I think they still had the pedigree to pick up top players, and were considered a Top 5 side. Cash might have been tight, and fortunes faded, but Everton were still a force.

Everton, as a Top 5 side, could break the British transfer record. Can you imagine that now?

I think Sigurdsson is our record signing at £45M. That was 10 years ago. The top sides can spend £125M plus.

It wont happen again in our lifetimes, John.

The club was skint, the fans who were trying to get the money together to help the club, sign Terry Curran, were screaming for However Kendall to be sacked.

Everton won at Birmingham on the 2 January 1984, won at Stoke in the FA Cup the following Saturday, and things slowly started looking up.

We had no money, hadn't won a trophy for 14 years, but just like now, we were still fucking Everton, a sleeping giant of a football club.

I think this was proven in the next 18 months when we won the FA Cup, the league title, and the European Cup-Winners Cup before being voted the World Soccer Team of the Year.

Look at Bramley-Moore Dock last week, look at the fans, remember the noise and realise that Everton Football Club are waiting to become one of the biggest clubs in England once again.

The Premier League is as average as it has been for years... so let's start demanding more instead of being happy with small improvements.

It happened, mate, that's the point.

Go 'ed, lad.

Tears to the eye there.

I understood you got the date wrong when we drew with Coventry City -- not long after the Battle of Hastings in 1066!

Ian (94)

When Kendall joined us, he spent most of what we had on seven players, only the two goalkeepers were of any value out of those seven and I doubt we got much back.

The club was skint but he took a chance on Andy Gray and Peter Reid for small fees, hardly played Reid until the League Cup game with Coventry, he came on as a sub and ran the game from there.

This game was watched by 9,080 and the league gates were not much higher, such was the tripe getting served up.

Gray and Reid ,along with Colin Harvey being appointed coach the day after that Coventry game, had a very big influence on how the tide was turned that season. We won the FA Cup followed by the league title the next season which allowed us to buy Gary Lineker. He scored 40-odd goals that season but we failed to win anything although we were runners up in both English competitions.

Lineker was sold on and we won the title again after he went. Then Howard went to Spain and Colin took over, spent a lot of money but couldn't continue the great part he played as a coach when he became the manager.

So I beg to differ that we were a Top 5 club when Howard began his time as player-manager and then manager.

I agree with the green shoots being laid; let's see if they bring a rich harvest. I have my doubts if Moyes is talking to those roots — you have to encourage and give confidence to them when talking to them — might be better getting King Charles in to do the job!

Spurs relegated in late 1970s, relegated Leeds, Arsenal not won the league since 1971.

You telling me Nottm Forest and Aston Villa were bigger? Not a snowball's...

I can absolutely guarantee he didn't consider that as successful.

Happy to hear of 5 bigger clubs in 1983-84...

Moyes stayed and, after we got obliterated in our first game of the season at home to Arsenal, I remember super Kevin Campbell saying that he would take 17th place now.

Moyes fell on a system, three midfielders: Gravesen and Cahill playing a little bit ahead of Carsley... and we haven't finished higher since.

We are Everton, and once the players start playing well, then the belief they can get from the fans on the terraces can be absolutely incredible. It just hasn't happened enough!

I said that Everton were not a Top 5 club when Kendall became manager of the club. They finished 15th in 1981; 8th in 1982, and 7th in 1983 and 1984.

I think I can safely say that Howard won more in one season than Moyes did in 11, as did Joe Royle. The Spaniard from Wigan won more points in one season than Moyes did in any of his 11 -- and during those 11 seasons, he became one of the highest paid managers in Europe.

I take it means they get more spectators watching them when they play at home and they have got more money to spend.

Football is played on a football pitch -- 11 players v 11 players, plus subs, and the players and manager that don't have an inferiority complex, usually do better than the ones that do.

Forest weren't a bigger club than Everton, but they won the league and then two European Cups, and I can imagine Brain Clough was telling his players to relax, work hard, and to get the ball and play the ball, until it was coming out of their fucking ears.

Arsenal are massive favourites for the Premier League title (a little part of me still thinks they can be caught) and yet Everton went to the Emirates a fortnight ago, and were probably the better team.

We went to Anfield just over 12 months ago and did the same thing to the eventual champions, Liverpool, in the first half, so a little part of me also thinks that we aren't that far away ourselves.

What's got to change? A few more good players obviously, along with the mindset. And like I've always said, if we can do this, then I'm sure the fans will do the rest.

What I was talking about is the profile of the club. Everton''s profile when Howard Kendall started was still a Top 5 club.

I am happy to hear of 5 clubs with a bigger profile in 1983-84.

And I am happy to hear if fans still think that Everton still have a profile of a Top 5 club.

I doubt it.

Tony, I agree. Balance to a team is vital. Particularly in central areas.

It means they don't get told they can only spend so much money, meaning we have to play a centre-back at right-back all season, and we can't afford a good centre-forward.

If size and money make no difference, what's to stop Accrington Stanley from planning for the big time? it's a stacked deck, deliberately so. So any inroads we make into this cartel we have to realise is a surprise.

Spurs can still get relegated cos we are still dealing with human beings at the end of the day, but to expect Moyes to compete against Arsenal and Man Utd on an equal basis is just unfair.

No wonder he was always talking about how he had a hand tied behind his back... it was just the truth.

I know it's not me you're addressing, Ian, but fuck profile, and don't give a fuck for the teams that have allegedly got a bigger profile because we haven't got that curse, Bill Kenwright, connected to our club now, mate.

Lowering expectations: plucky little Everton, punching above their weight...🤮 This was, and always will be, an absolute losers mentality that should never be allowed to be said anywhere near our club, ever again... but what do I know?

Howard Kendall and his players (once they had won the FA Cup) looked across the park at the best team in Europe and told themselves they could beat them. Once Alex Ferguson had changed the mentality inside Old Trafford by getting rid of the drinking culture and making sure his players turned into the most professional squad in the country, he made sure he knocked Liverpool right off their fucking perch.

You create profiles on the training ground, and you do this by assembling a squad of players who have got character. And there's another nail, hammer and head.

Nothing whatsoever, Kevin, but do you think they have got the history, tradition, stadium or fanbase that Everton Football Club have always possessed?

It's all about the money. We nearly went bust last year, we've not been able to spend a penny for years, but overnight we're supposed to go toe to toe with Man Utd? Maybe we can, they aren't well run, and we can get lucky...

But we have to acknowledge the facts of life: they are 20 times bigger than us, and that advantage leaks into everything.

If it can be just done with chest thumping, why bother?

I wish you were right. All my heart, I wish you were. But the top 5 inches of my being tells me players matter. Kev articulates it, so I won't repeat it.

History, tradition, stadium, fanbase... "profile" in other words.

History... stadium... tradition.

Look at what I said about how I believe I don't think we are far away, and more importantly, because it's the most important thing, look at what I said about where I believe that real profiles are created.

Think about it, and in your case, please read back, Kevin, because I haven't been anti-David Moyes in this little discussion, so there's no need to get all defensive.

Chest thumping -- not my style. It's knowing how good you can be that is a lot more important and means a lot more to me.

"Accrington Stanley, who are they?"

I still believe, Tony. I just know it isn't happening overnight.

I'm not sure that we are not "far away" but we are most certainly improving.

Let's hope we are both right.

I'm just appreciative of the job he's doing, and I don't want us to do a West Ham. Get rid cos we think we can do better, and end up with someone like Graham Potter, who promptly takes us back to that zone of anxiety.

I read that post twice. First time just as usual. Second time in my head, with the Accrington Stanley accent!

The question now is whether Moyes can break his career glass ceiling, often self-inflicted by his own caution and negativity?

It doesn't have to take an eternity to move from relegation fighters to trophy challengers. We went from zeros to heroes under Howard Kendall; Villa turned things round quickly; there are plenty of examples.

Much depends on recruitment. This Summer is crucial. I don't want to hear Moyes chasing Soucek and Tete… we must aim higher.

We have the core of a decent side. 3 quality additions alongside the retention of a decent squad who can step in as needed, into a pattern (like Alan Harper and Kevin Richardson did), and we could be a force.

Winning teams have character and leaders in abundance; we lack this currently, hence Tarkowski becomes an automatic starter even when not playing at his best.

I don't see the need to give Moyes an extension to his contract now but, if he recruits well, finds some positivity within him, and has us challenging for trophies next season, then he's earned it.

Does he have this in his locker…?

The players were there, they eat like fucking kings. I'd just been in a 5-star hotel in Dubai, and the food at Finch Farm was better!

Anyway, the room started emptying, Stoney was going to play golf with Woaney, and it left me and Dychey sitting on the table talking about Everton.

He was saying that, once you took away Seamus Coleman, we didn't have enough leaders. I said, "What about your mate from Burnley, Tarkowski? I'm sure he can be a leader." He nodded.

Then I said, "What about James Garner?" He said, "I like him but he's got to learn the game."

"I think you should just put him in and give him some trust, same with the other kid, Branthwaite, and I'm sure they will turn into leaders," I said.

"I'm an Evertonian, I know what I watch, and more importantly I know what it takes for a player to succeed at Everton."

Moyes alert, Kevin, get ready for a Moyes alert. I asked my mate to ask Alan Stubbs to ask Moyes if I could do the team talk before we played Liverpool in the FA Cup at Wembley.

Why? Because when we beat Sunderland in the quarter-final, at the Stadium of Light in front of 6500 delirious Evertonians (greatest away support I have ever had the pleasure to be amongst that night).

Every single one of us wanted Liverpool, because every fucking single one of us aren't fucking scared of Liverpool, especially then, because they were fucken shite. I came out of the ground, sat in the car and said, "I've got a picture of the harp in the Guinness advert in my head. For anyone who can't remember the word going through the middle of the harp, it simply said “Believe”.

We lost to Liverpool, it was absolutely fucking horrible, and for the next week, I won't have been the only Evertonian feeling absolutely numb. Then I read Philip Neville talking about the half-time team talk when we were leading at Wembley, and it made me feel 10 times worse.

Why? Because I knew that our manager didn't have enough belief (it's why I genuinely wanted to do the team talk) and if a manager hasn't got enough belief, then I'll guarantee everyone that neither will his players.

Moyes has got the best opportunity of his life, so let's hope he's changed and he takes it!🤞

I think he has changed. I am at an event with him in April. I hope that gives me belief, rather leave me cold.

And I do aooreciate the tale

Losing to them in a semi-final is not for me evidence that Moyes isn't capable of smashing the glass ceiling. It's hard to beat these teams in semi-final but we were in the semi-final and we made the final too. That is much better than anything we've had in a long long time.

Once we get back there, and have had a couple of years of 'choking', then maybe we can look at it. But he's only been in post a year, and so far he's doing just fine in my view. I'm certainly not going to lay into him now for what he may or may not do in the future.

“You create profiles on the training ground, and you do this by assembling a squad of players who have got character.”

They don't like it but there are only 3 clubs as big as Everton in England: Arsenal, Man Utd, and the enemy.

We will be great again -- in my lifetime. Singing...

If you look maybe 5 - 6 good additions to this team would transform it, along with the young developing players.
Are we that far behind Aston Villa?

Just proved we can compete with Chelsea, and we ran Arsenal close.

2 x full backs
1 x Thiago from Brentford
Harry Wilson
A centre-back (not Ben white)
Keep Grealish
And a central midfielder

Easy!!!!

After scoring and being in complete control during the first half, the half-time team talk consisted of talking about how the players had to be prepared for Liverpool throwing the kitchen sink at them during the second half.

No mention of them having the worst keeper in the Premier League in goal; no mention of going and scoring a second goal?

Think about it, when a team has got a player like Suarez, don't wait for them to go and throw the kitchen sink at you! Go and try and score a second goal yourself!!!

I don't think the absolutely awful Brad Jones had to make a save during that second half. With Liverpool at our mercy, the manager chose to talk about how dangerous they were.

Half a team away then?

Either but neither scenario's strike me as "not far away"

No manager will have over come a longer period, nor delivered at a club lower in the English pecking order.

I sincerely hope it's soon. As an 8-year-old in 1984, I haven't signed up waiting for any longer.

Then the club bosses engineered a horribly trophy-less decade and a half, but got lucky in acquiring Howard Kendall until Heysel significantly destroyed our future and led very soon after to Kenwright taking a lot of, and then full control.

I believe I've previously mentioned my disdain for him, but, in being one of the five big clubs who promulgated the creation of the Premier League, it seems to me that just about everyone then in football contemplated us as a big club, regardless of the recent seasons' mediocre league positions.

Of course Kenwright then started to destroy any version of that status in favour of seeking his own personal embellishment.

He got lucky with Moyes Mk 1 though, a young man recently retired as a steady player with clear evidence of success in managing teams in the then Second Division (mirroring Howard kendall, of course).

Moyes must've seen right through Kenwright almost as soon as he took the job, but the regular mega-improved contracts Kenwright serially supplied to him to hide the full truth from true Evertonians were no doubt very persuasive.

To me, Freidkin has a very serious decision to soon make, and events this summer orchestrated by Freidkin will tell us much about where his club's ambition is from next season on.

Give your mammy her phone back... now!

If you go back through this thread, read my post @10 and, with the clocks going forward in a couple of hours, you would probably be better trying to wind your watch up instead, kid.

That was under Kenwright, Kevin. Who has been sold under Moyes that fits your criteria?

You can pack that in about belief to go and try to win something. It would threaten our stability.

He shit himself in that semi-final.

As with Roma, they are simply looking for stability and not supremacy. If the Friedkins made films their go-to franchise would be the Carry Ons and not the Mission Impossible series. Does David Moyes deserve an extension? Maybe.

He dumped us out of all the cups in quick style and is claiming success even though at home it's been torrid for the most part. I'd prefer to say thanks and reach for the stars but we won't. In 5 years we might start competing for a cup and Moyes will still be with us.

Meanwhile this season...

Also (129), the flesh-eater was not the best player in the world at that time. Not even close. And that shite team was there for the taking on that day.

Ryan Holroyd (136): what a sad little needy individual you are.

Brentford away and Liverpool home. Both winnable and important to win if our ambition to get a European place is realistic.

Like all Blues, I really hope we do it. Over to Moyes 2.0, or is it still Moyes 1.0?

Please fill in the correct word and use that instead.

Adrian Heath went for £700-£750k

Trevor Steven £300k

In the context of the British transfer market at the time, these were still fair fees, and represented that the club was still a compatarively big fish.

Key Transfers 1981/82

Bryan Robson (£1.5 million, West Bromwich Albion to Manchester United): Signed in October 1981, this set a new British record fee.

Justin Fashanu (£1 million, Norwich City to Nottingham Forest): Completed in 1981, making him one of the first British players to command a £1 million fee.

Frank Stapleton (£900k, Arsenal to Manchester United): Aug 1981.

Peter Barnes (£750,000 + £180,000 "tariffs", WBA to Leeds United): A major signing for Leeds in 1981.

Adrian Heath (£750,000, Stoke City to Everton): Jan 1982.

Jimmy Case (£350,000, Liverpool to Brighton & Hove Albion): Aug 1981.

Asa Hartford (£350,000, Everton to Manchester City): Oct 1981.

Alan Biley (£300,000, Derby County to Everton): July 1981.

Neville Southall (£150,000, Bury to Everton): July 1981.

Even under Joe's time he took Kanchelskis & Speed. One a top player for the best team in the country, and another a title winner a few years earlier with Leeds. Would everton be their first destination now? I dont think they would. Players of that ilk would be going to a higher profile side.

How about 'realistic'?

The Premier League is so 'unfair', boo hoo hoo,

I'm quite sure that erm 'Moyesiah' can deal with it right?!!!!

But it's so flipping 'unfair' 😭

Like, we never had the opportunity to join in with all the fun, but we fucked it up. It's so flipping 'unfair' 😭

What I should have said is: "It's not realistic to judge Moyes within a rigged game?"

Hmm... no, I think I'll stick with the original wording, thanks.

He is paid a fucking fortune to make us compete.

My suspicion is that TFG said to him you got the job but remember it's all so flipping 'unfair' 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Manchester United have that profile and always will, whether are successful or not.

Everton are my club and are better than any other club, to me and many other fans, but I know we are not regarded that way by fans of other clubs. I think we are preferred and liked by many neutral fans and one of the reasons is because we are not a threat to their success.

Everton were not down and out when Howard Kendall became manager but we were struggling badly to be noticed by the media. The fact that Howard and Colin gave us those fabulous four seasons was a great tonic and gave us our pride back for that period.

Ryan (136), You've broke my heart with that post — You dirty rotten dog!

Someone should tell his teacher in school tomorrow.

Deserves an hour detention

£20m off Newcastle, and a wage bill probably now half of Liverpool's after their big summer spree.

It is a 11 vs 11 a game, but the pitch isn't a level plsying field.

1. Manchester City – £223,652,000

2. Arsenal – £172,666,000

3. Manchester United – £171,418,000

4. Chelsea – £161,850,000

5. Liverpool – £129,376,000

6. Aston Villa – £123,864,000

7. Tottenham – £111,956,000

8. West Ham United – £100,230,000

9. Newcastle United – £93,132,000

10. Everton – £72,462,000

Also a large portion of the £72 million will disproportionately go to two of the highest earners.

Grealish and Moyes

Unless you want to count Edna the tea lady in that wage bill?

Grealish, wasn't here last season, and Moyes was only here for half a season.

Id be surprised if it was more than £2.5m of the £72.5m.

Perhaps Moyes was guilty of increasing the win bonus payments. The squad had only seen 3 prior to Moyes return.

Always knew he was a top blue

I know.

Its gone up to near £80 million this season.

Steve McMahon’s transfer fee paid for Trevor Steven after Stevie refused to be taken for a door mat with increased wages of £15 - bleedin’ £15 — They never got on and Kendall moved McMahon on.

Mind you paying £300,000 for Alan Biley told you that Howard was still starting to learn the managers job while getting Southall for a relative small fee was proof he was a quick learner and got better as soon as Colin gave him loads of advice.

Just checked the wage bill of all the premier league clubs, I think we are 12th in the list on £76,900,000 and seeing you asked Crystal Palace wage bill for last season was £80,300,000.

Two great sides, best in the country, equals.

Backed up by the sites I have looked at.

Just over £60 million wage bill for the FA Cup winners of that season

The proper judge of the quality of a football team is where they finish in the league. You can get lucky draws all the way to the final and then play a big team in transition and suddenly you've won the FA Cup.

Just checked another couple of sites for Premier clubs wage bill and they all seem to differ which suggests none of them really know, but another site puts Everton ahead of Palace on wages, but they both pale into insignificance compared to the top teams City spend £306m, Arsenal 259,335.000, Lpool 238,385,000 even Spurs are in excess of £100m ahead of what we spend..

The club was brassic, it’s a fact that the fans were trying to raise the money to sign Terry Curran (in a short space of time, the team improved beyond recognition, meaning he actually wasn’t good enough for us once he eventually signed) but yesterday has gone even though there’s a lot to learn from the past.

Two very experienced characters made a massive difference to that squad and helped turn them into winners, alongside the promotion of a very good training ground coach, and suddenly the team had a system, they had belief and they also acquired the desire that’s needed if you want to go and become the best.

We are football fans not businessmen, so to say that the cup is irrelevant is just absolutely plain stupid imo. If it didn’t matter to anyone else it mattered to those Coventry City fans, and I bet you that for the people who have watched Coventry City, for all their lives, this will be the greatest day they have ever had watching their football team.

Wigan at home in the quarter final of the FA Cup was a lucky draw, especially when you consider that the winners had Millwall in the semifinal, but once again Moysey got it badly wrong and absolutely shit himself, but he made sure his players performed in the league against city the following week, because the league is what it’s all about.

Until we can win the league surely we should be concentrating on winning a cup? Hopefully Moyes wins us a trophy next season and you won’t have to keep talking absolute pony defending him sometimes Kevin🤞

I get the points that Moyes critics make, but there's no way he is a poor manager.

Beat them, sneak into Europe. Then the contract situation can be spoken about.

Lots to play for yet and all to play for.

There is a perception that it is easy to win trophies, or beat particular teams. And people get sniffy when we don't.

This isn't a David Moyes issue. This is an issue that Everton have been put in managed decline for decades, perhaps even pre Billy Bullshitter.

Can the club win a trophy, and not think about the league positions? Football is about winning and trophies, not just finishing 8th.

Well, it depends what your priorities are.

The FA Cup or League Cup will give you next to nothing in prize money. It does raise the profile of the club;, it does provide Europe, and it does provide a day out.

But it can't be at the expense of league positions. That's what fans are not fully grasping, particularly when clubs are up against the financial line.

At £3M a place and financial rules in place, it may mean having to fire sell the better players to stay within financial rules, eg, youve budgeted for 6th and finish 16th and landed a cup.

Fans would, I am sure, take a trophy and a lower league place. Would fans take a League Cup, but risk being forced to sell their better players to bridge that £30M gap... perhaps bigger if you're budgeting for Champions League? I suspect some would not.

If fans wonder why reserves are played in the minor cups, it's because the Premier League and Champions League are what matter financially, and the regulations are set to ensure that happens.

Is it not possible to finish 8th and win a cup? Does one rule out the other?

Brian,

The figures do differ but every site I have looked at has us paying more wages than Palace in the season they won the FA Cup.

My point is, it can be done on a lower wage budget than the big clubs.

You are talking about winning cups not being that important yet here you are @ (83) praising Moyes for winning that third rate European trophy.

That's the one trophy I'd be embarrassed to boast about... and we will suffer next season if that is the trophy we are chasing!

Re your posts on winning a cup, I wasn't sure if you were on the wind-up with your previous posts.

I am now.

He doesn't believe and lack of belief is quite possibly the biggest handicap any manger could be saddled with.

Tony A,

Your acts of kindness are well documented on here. So are those smashing little anecdotes you regale us with from time to time. They're brilliant. It has been a pleasure reading your posts today.

Reading the way you conduct yourself and the patience you show to even the daftest of posts. I think it would be fair to say you are without doubt The jewel in the TW crown.

That arl fella of yours must be very proud of you. I hope he buys you a nice big Easter Egg -- obviously after they've all been reduced on Monday. We don't want him going overboard!

If he was running in the Grand National, he would be amongst the bottom weights.

I always preached to Tony “Give and you will receive.“ I'm still learning that practice. I'm great at receiving -- not so much giving.

His mam will buy him an Easter egg so I won't spoil her pleasure!

John,

Don't knock it. You may get paid out on the first eight.

I'm waiting a week until the bookies bring the non-runner money back clause into the market.

We lost to Wigan, I was absolutely fuming and made a decision never to go inside Goodison Park again whilst Moyes was in bed with Kenwright.

The following week, I was working and listening on the radio when Everton beat Manchester City, much to the absolute delight of David Moyes.

"Fucking Phoney Bastard!" I was thinking, surely he should have been a lot more concerned about beating Wigan, rather than Man City?

And then, not long after, the cat came out the bag, because he must have obviously known that Sir Alex was going to retire if he won the Premier League, and Everton's victory that day all but confirmed it.

I hope we get in the Champions League, Kevin, but for purely selfish reasons, I'd much sooner see us win a fucking cup. Don't you realise that there are people who have been watching Everton for over 25 years, who rarely miss our team play absolutely anywhere, and have yet to see the team they love win a cup?

Come on, Kev, think about it mate.

I enjoyed getting to the Champions League Top 4, finishing above Liverpool, more than the Joe Royle run to the FA Cup Final. And I'd take that trade off right now: Top 4 rather than a cup win.

Those greedy bastard globalists continue to cut corners and lower the standards everywhere, Darren. It's fucking dead hard getting hold of real chocolate these days, you know how it goes, music to Dave's ears!!

Moyes finished above Liverpool twice, we came sixth and seventh.

The other time Moyes came above them they won the champions league.

Coming fourth was great until we had to compete in Europe, and made a complete show of ourselves in Bukarest.

Winning the cup was definitely better though, especially those games against Bristol, Newcastle, Spurs and then United.

Ask any thirty year old who has stood the test of time watching Everton, absolutely anywhere and everywhere that question Kevin, and I think that the answer you would get off any of them would be - are you fucking normal mate?

We didn't get to the Champions League

They splashed out £100m in this season with what I think we can describe as mixed results. What I don't know is whether they saw that as merely a start, to be followed up by an equally big spend or even bigger in subsequent season(s), or their best shot and we're looking at a future from now of living to a tight budget and player trading with a mid table target and an outside chance of Europe and/or a cup.

If it's the latter, you could do a lot worse than Moyes. If it's the former, I think it is debatable whether Moyes is your man. FWIW, I am reasonably sure it's the latter, sadly. And of course they cannot in any case just spend above the capacity of our revenue generation to cover the costs, and those revenues are very much those of a mid table team.

It's not like you to mention Kenwright in any of your posts.

Just saying like.

They were the competition rules.

He qualified us for a qualifier.

You don’t get to that many games Kevin, I don’t get to as many myself anymore but it doesn’t make either us any less of an Evertonian, though.

We differ in what we want. I have got sons, who have dedicated their lives to watching Everton, and haven’t seen us win a trophy, and for this reason alone it’s a no brainer for me.

Going on a European tour creates great memories but nothing beats running around Wembley with the cup.

I don't see getting top 4 as making us look stupid in Europe Tony. We lost out to a very good team, and a bent ref. And the disappointment we all felt bled into the night at Bucharest. It's all ancient history now like. But yes European nights will do me jsut fine for the present.

I can see you would want to enhance it.

What have the Romans done for us? It’s like watching those old classic Monty python classics, listening to you mate!

Trophies.

If he keeps on improving he may well bring his away record up to the lofty heights of shameful.

And we get people bragging about his away record

Never mind Villarreal, how about getting real? A football fan is on a website explaining that he would sooner qualify for Europe, rather than win something?

I’ve been reading that Moyes qualified for Europe, four times when he was previously at Everton, but he never got passed the last sixteen.

You are starting to remind me of Martin Mason, when I started calling him The Duke, because he reminded me of the character out of that old classic “Midnight Run’ with your current logic Kevin

are you still having nightmares about getting rolled over at Old Trafford Darren? Fear not, we stormed that citadel just this year, and carried off the spoils with just ten men. A rocket from the new recruit, We also stuffed villa, who are also set to finish in the top 4. And we were a a couple of coats of paint away from beating Arsenal at their place.

I've thrown a thousand darts. I landed in double top twice. I'm still widely regarded as a really shit darts player.

Maybe you can convince people round here that I'm a great player. You'll need to do a better job than the one you're doing for Moyes's away record though

Like the cat that got the cream, we went out in the qualifier, we got a goal disallowed, and lost the game.

I remember us being shite in the home leg anyway, so we were not going to pull up any trees.

This fella once said he won the charity shield at Man Utd enough said about this lucky millionaire. , along with the mint cornetto cup he won at West Ham proves his vast trophy laden career.

Almost frightened to succeed.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Who stood uo to be counted. Who was our talisman?

How many trophies did all these players go onto win? How many dominated a world cup or European championship, or actually make it to a finals? How many delivered as managers or were considered strong enough to manage our club? How many did the opposition genuinely fear?

Jan Mucha

Seamus Coleman

Johnny Heitinga

Sylvain Distin

Leighton Baines

Phil Neville - sub Victor Anichebe

Leon Osman

Steven Pienaar

Marouane Fellaini - sub Darron Gibson

Kevin Mirallas - sub Ross Barkley

Nikica Jelavic

Substitutes

Mason Springthorpe

Shane Duffy

Thomas Hitzlsperger

Steven Naismith

How many were mentally tough?

Spine tingling the way the fans and players sang it at that game

it was and I was there!

Best "anthem" there is without doubt.

On the Sunday when Hibs brought the Cup home it so reminded me of us after the 66 final. Just a sea of colour, green and white as opposed to our lovely blue and white!

Pure passion.

I'd sign John McGinn just on the back of how he sang.

Close your eyes and imagine

Grown men crying along with women and kids out of love for their club.

I want that John.

I’m sure this team came sixth in the premier league that season, but when it came to one off games, they were usually found wanting.

Assembled for buttons, there are some very good players on that list, but after eleven years in charge David, hadn’t assembled a squad of players that seemed to have that much character.

Imagine being a player on the training ground with a squad of players assembled by a man who had real character, listening to your new manager talking about players, who had won the sum total of zero?

You surely have to ask why? when a squad of players kept shitting themselves, (Moyes has openly admitted he doesn’t enjoy Merseyside derby matches) because isn’t this one of the most crucial parts of being a good manager?

The kids express themselves in a talented and confident manner, that ability and confidence ensure they get a contract. Then, they get restricted in the expression that got him the contract in the first place.

Dozens of instructions and graphs weighing his mind down.
Told they can't do this, can't do that, just do this. We need a manager who will allow expression.

Coleman, Baines, Osman and Anichebe spent most of their careers playing for Moyes and didn't win a trophy between them.

In fact, the common denominator between all that team and about a hundred other players is that none of them won a Banny mug whilst playing for Moyes.

I bet Mourinho was shitting himself when he saw super Jan Mucha was in front of him. Careful boys, this fella's won the Super Hubcap in Slovakia twice. Don't get drawn in by the trackies.

But you're right. How we didn't dominate English football is beyond me. Feel sorry for these players, a real golden generation.

Moyes out, Jan in.

The common denominator, unfortunately, being Everton FC, not the manager.

In the last week, I've put that back on the playlist again after watching that Hibs clip on YouTube for the nth time.

Alan Stubbs didn't know what to do with himself, bless him.

I for one have not called Moyes a 'poor manager' over the last 12 months or so, although he was not the one I wanted and I still have some major reservations.

'Unfair' just seems like wailing and whining to me. We had our chance to be in the Premier League top tier and we could well have been, but it wasn't the Premier League or, erm, a 'conspiracy' that stopped that happening -- it was us and our sixth-rate 'executive' team who completely screwed up in the 1990s despite being some of the most vocal advocates for the Premier League.

'Unfair'! Stop feeling sorry for yourself (not you, Raymond). We have had a huge hand in creating our current -- shall we say -- disadvantaged state, Raymond (and Kevin).

You're forgetting the 2nd leg, when they brought a ref out of retirement to stop us qualifying, but do you remember the hulaballoo that went before it?

We finished above them, but everyone knows they didn't want us to get in the group stages, hence Collina, and us Evertonians have never forgiven the corrupt cun*t since... think Clive Thomas, 1977.

I don't know about you but I've got a long memory, and the times we've been shafted stick in the craw.

But why would they want plucky Everton finishing above their beloved Liverpool? It doesn't suit their narrative, does it?

Every single one of them had fewer attempts.

Your claim has been blown to fuck. Just be grateful I couldn't be arsed making a list of players who won major trophies before or after playing for Moyes whilst winning the sum total of zilch when they played for him. The common denominator: A serial loser.

Might do that list tomorrow. I don't want to be here all night compiling it.

You know we've lacked players with the class and cojones for decades. It's why we've never had one to come back and manage this club.

Some might have won the odd trophy, but not many met more than one of those questions I posed. Cahill, Arteta, Rooney is a short list.

How many trophies did all these players go on to win? How many dominated a World Cup or European Championship, or actually made it to a finals? How many delivered as managers or were considered strong enough to manage our club? How many did the opposition genuinely fear?

Pienaar- failed at Spurs?
Jelavic - Hull
Naismith - Norwich
Anichibe - West Brom
Barkley - failed at Chelsea?
Gibson - Sunderland
Heitinga - Fulham
Mucha - PFC Krylia Sovetov Samara
Neville - unwanted by Man Utd

Hardly a who's who.

And should we be surprised? Not really. The money ran out, the credit cards were maxed, and for the last 3 years we hardly bought a thing.

Rodwell for Mirallas was as big as it got, and Arteta sold to keep the banks happy. Stones a shrewd buy.

No need to cherry-pick -- it applies to every single one of them.

How can you win anything when your manager has the worst record of all time when visiting top teams?

Going to bed now as there are too many to list and I cant be arsed staying up to prove the already irrefutable.

Loving that you tried to slip Stones in as a Moyes signing. I'm going to have fun with that one tomorrow too

One of Moyes' best buys was a little Australian called Tim Cahill.

In your own time, mate.

The two of them personally profited massively as a duo allegedly involved in advancing our club to where history for well over a hundred years has pronounced us to be.

Both failed.

But Moyes was a mere, but very willing and knowing, pawn of Kenwright until Ferguson at MU anointed him with greater wealth and expected opportunity.

Moyes has concocted a prolific management career over decades whilst being a serial failure in trophy winning. No other manager in England has taken so much from football for so little return to the fans.

Aged 71 I am more confident of finding a previously unexplored erogenous zone on my withering body than I am in expecting Moyes to win a trophy for us, and his WHU "triumph" merely exposed the limitations of the celebrating Hammers' fans who joined in with him.

So I'm well and truly seeking to describe his previous decades as ultimate failures, whilst he with us found lengthy credentials in managing several other clubs, without success.

Running right through what I'm writing though is the part Kenwright for decades played in serially denigrating our club outside of his own office. Moyes bought into Kenwright's office and stance for many years as Kenwright massively increased Moyes' contract, only terminating when Ferguson mk.2 had Moyes kiss his ass to gain much better remuneration with, ahem, a "much better" squad.

Moyes failed, again and again and again at an assortment of clubs all of whom employed him to improve their success. Having spent so many years labouring on fabulous money in Kenwright's utterly bent cause I wonder from where he convinced himself he had the kudos to achieve what those clubs required?

As said, the recent WHU toffee-apple Euro trophy may have meant exhilaration to Moyes and their fans but it won't wash with me.

I expect more from Freidkin and, dare I mention him, "Our Dazza" now that he's openly conceded being the abusive dickhead to fellow fans me and numerous other posters have taken him to task about for a long time.

Well done mate - that takes insight and guts.

Dazza used to, however, ALWAYS describe the seriously malign Kenwright as horrible to OUR cause, and I always agree with him.

Last time I looked winning either cup does qualify us for a shot at Europe.

I'd take the FA Cup thank you very much and a shot at the Europa League any day above a top-4 finish.

I think that say 96.4899% of our fans born in 1990 or after would agree with me. (I'm not one of them, I bought 'Ceremony' by New Order a couple of days after it came out (along with 'We don't need this Fascist Groove Thang' by Heaven 17) and, alas, remember the Rubettes.)

Tony is running rings round you KM. Cease and desist mate.

It also makes us more attractive to better players. After all, anyone can win an F.A Cup and fall into obscurity, Portsmouth say.

It proved to be a bit silly, as you branded Roberto Martinez as a “failure” after winning the FA Cup with Wigan. You seemed to miss him winning the Nations League with Portugal and reaching the World Cup semi-final with Belgium.

Harry Redknapp was also a “failure” at Spurs, despite taking them to consecutive Champions League campaigns and achieving a win ratio of 49.49% in his time there. By your own definition of success for Everton, that would be a MASSIVE achievement for David Moyes.

On the manager thread, you also screened out all the trophies that managers won before achieving that domestic trophy - by that definition you could also call Alex McLeish and Juanse Ramos (serial trophy winners) “failures”.

Now you are trying the same angle with the players on your post, carefully screening out the multiple trophies they won before they joined Everton. Phil Neville - “unwanted at Man Utd” - he won 6 league titles, 3 FA Cups and a Champions League there before he moved to Everton.

Ironically, all you are doing is demonstrating Darren’s point that playing for Moyes is guaranteed to kill a players chances of winning trophies, as he can hardly claim to be a serial trophy winner. Your other argument seems to be that only Arteta went on to win trophies elsewhere, so Moyes is a career killer as well?

PS, “failure at Chelsea” Ross Barkley won the FA Cup, Europa League and the Club World Cup at the club.

I get your incremental improvement argument, but don’t stretch logic and facts too much in trying to make it. Unfortunately, the issue that stands in the way of the argument that Moyes can achieve success here is his own career history, particularly at Everton.

It is like Kevin crowing that Everton defeated Man Utd away when Moyes has only achieved 2 away wins at Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea in his 23 years as a Premier League Manager. It would be better to keep quiet about such failure.

Put up a poll. I bet those voting for the FA Cup and the EL would greatly outnumber the Top 4/5 folks.

Tony @ 10 - good point. I reckon DM deserves another season at the helm, specially if we bring in some quality players in key positions that have been neglected so far.

As for TFG, I honestly don't think that they have set any high aims on the football side of things for now other than staying comfortably in the PL for the financial side of things.

Lost more games visiting Anfield than any other manager in history.

Lost more games visiting Old Trafford than any other manager in history

Lost more games visiting Stamford bridge than any other manager in history

Lost more games visiting Spurs than any other manager in history

Lost more games visiting Arsenal than any other manager in history.

Go figure

Ferdinand, vidic, Evra, Carrick, Giggs, Rooney, Van persie, Wellbeck, Hernandez etc..

All serial winners until Davey Moyes rocked up and ensured their success ground to a juddering halt. Mata signed for him and suffered the same fate as Seamus, Bainesy and Osman.

Those players who turned down Moyes ( depite him offering better deals) like Gareth Bale and Cesc Fabrigas went on to achieve absolute Glory - They saw the writing on the wall and avoided the serial loser.

Its strange that despite managing players out of the very top drawer, The Moyes acolytes still blame the players for his lack of success.

Here's what Sir Alex Feguson had to say - "We had won the league by 11 points (the season before), but as results deteriorated, each defeat was a hammer blow for him. I could see that in his demeanour. We brought in Juan Mata and that gave everyone a lift, but I could see the walls squeezing in leaving David with less and less room to breathe".

"The results gnawed away at David. Nobody could dispute how disappointing the season was. It cost a man his job"

Choking on your alibi's

But it's just a price I pay

Destiny is calling me

Open up my eager eyes

I'm Mr Brightside

The worst thing SAF ever did at Man-U was to trumpet a trophy-less top-4 coward 8th-ish manager as his successor. Probably a Govan thing.

I admit only to having no time for fools and creeps like you who think they can pursue me across various sites.

I show nothing but respect to the vast majority of posters, But I will only ever have a contempt for nasty little snipers like you.

Despite you oft repeated claim. "We" agree on nothing.

I remember you flouncing from TW declaring you will NEVER return. I know you were expecting people to plead with you to stay, but not a single poster even acknowledged your flounce. That`s why I came back.

I find your obsession with a fella who has been dead for years, every bit as disturbing as your 5 year obsession with me.

You do realise there are other posters on thse sites ?

This one is "if we win a cup we will end up like Portsmouth"

At the risk of repeating myself.

Moyes is working free of charge?

The Moyesiah took a team of champions with 89 points to a 7th position finish with 64 points. All in 9 months.

Managed to lower the goal difference in that 9 months from +43 down to +21

IF we were to win that “Toffee apple euro trophy” next year we’ll make that sunshine on leith video sound like a karaoke night at the dog and bacon!

Steve you post some good stuff, but that's all a bit of a stretch.

Harry Redknapp was a success at Spurs? Moyes net spend over 11 years £5.6m, Redknapp over 4 years £38m. So with financial backing and a better manager, why didn't Harry win the league with them? Why didnt he win domestic cups with them. With actual champions league qualification met, why couldn't he show it. Why at the end of contract did they say tatty bye? If your criteria for success at Everton is trophies, how on earth is it not at Spurs?

Ross Barkley was a success at Chelsea. Do me a favour. The kid was a bright prospect at Everton, part of the England squad, and going places. Following his move, he was more likely to get wood worm off the bench than a Ballon Dor nomination. 58 league games in 5 years, and most from the bench. Anyone with half a brain knows that he never realised an ounce of his potential. He earnt a boat load from being support cast, not a vital cog.

And that's the thing, bar a couple, a good player at Everton, is a sub at United, Chelsea, and Spurs. And we wonder why we win jot. That's the difference between the 60s and 80s, and since. We have had also ran players, as an also ran club.

The nations league. Whoop de do. I am more interested in the World Cup. I am interested in those with the character to win, someone who could get Everton over the line. Moyes is being decribed as the nearly man, and in response youre putting up, a nearly man. Keep going, why don't we get Gareth Southgate in, if your ambition is falling at the final fence.

Alex Mcleish and Juande Ramos. Both huge missed opportunities. Alex never lasted more than 12 months in any job post Birmingham, but we would have little resistance picking him up from mighty Genk & Zamelek. And Ramos could have built a dystany of English football after his 1 year spell & 38% win ratio that ended in a P45.

And the reason why Mccleish, Ramos, and Redknapp don't have a worst record at Stamford Bridge, Anfield and Old Trafford is because they already stunk the gaff out that much, they'd been given the bullet. But you already knew that Dazza.

It was Ian who mentioned £72 million.

Its actually near £80 million and that's without the massive salary the manager is on.

Who said he was "the second highest earner"?

John Collins

160

Posted 29/03/2026 at 10:45:59

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£72 million wage bill is not in keeping with the top clubs of course but they will have 20 plus squad players on top money unlike us.

Also a large portion of the £72 million will disproportionately go to two of the highest earners.

Grealish and Moyes

" he show it. Why at the end of contract did they say tatty bye?"

Because the penny dropped for the Spurs board 8 years faster than it did for the Everton board?

That sharp board fired a failure, and hired more failures? Brilliant.

The only achievement was shuffling more coin from the club coffers, to the pocket of managers to not even work.

Its becoming more regular tbh

OOOOSHH. OOOOSH

Unless we can get a squad of equal ability to the usual winners I don't care who the manager is we are not going to do well. I apoligise for labouring this point but it seems like the obvious conclusion to me.

I don't dispute that some managers will have more abilities than others but all the 'names' have managed at the 'biggest' clubs stuffed with outstanding players.

Raymond #276, "Stop Making Sense" to quote Talking Heads. You know it upsets folk.

You ask a lot of questions normally. So id be interested in your view.

Would sacking Moyes earlier because of the penny dropping, led to anything other than a longer list of past Everton managers to follow the sackings of Martinez, Koeman, Alladyce, Silva, Benitez, Lampard & Dyche.

In your opinion.

CL, not the other mickey mouse trophies, make that revenue go up. Then you can afford the better players who can keep you qualifying most years and if you are in the conversation for top 4, you are pretty much in the conversation for (eventually) winning the PL. Plus with those better players, recent history says you more likely will win one of those domestic cups.

It's a means to an end, to the very thing we all want, to be competing again at the highest level. The hard bit is not identifying this. That bit is obvious. It's pulling it off because there are major barriers. But you bet, I'd celebrate if we got top 4...

So you think people like Mcliesh, Ramos and Redknapp (not sure where their names come from) didnt have worse record than Moyes at the grounds of the big boys because they were sacked and didnt get get to go to them anywhere near as many times as he did ?

I seee..... So Moyes's record at these grounds is worse than all the other managers put together. Because he has had so many more opportunities to win ?

So His records so utterly shameful due to the number of bites he`s had at the cherry ?

As excuses go. I've got to say. That's right up there

You don’t like facts that are inconvenient to your opinion.

1) You don’t like the fact that Harry Redknapp reached the Champions League twice after finishing 4th and 5th from 2009/2011.

2) You don’t like the fact that Ross Barkley won more trophies at Chelsea than all Everton players did over 12 years under Moyes.

3) You don’t like the Nations League because Roberto won it.

4) You don’t like the fact that Alex McLeish won 8 trophies as a manager.

5) You don’t like the fact that Juande Ramos won 6 trophies as a manager, including 2 UEFA Cups.

No worries, we are all admiring your contortions to compare them unfavorably to David Moyes - qualified for the Champions League once, never won a domestic top flight trophy, and reached one Final in 12 years.

I am one of the few who have liked how they have approached the transfer window. Indeed the few oversights I feel are due to them trying to support the manager for his priorities.

I am fully aware of their terrible track record at Roma but am certainly going to judge them on what they do here.

They must surely know there is a real possibility that we don't get Europe and finish mid table. The fact that they would be so delighted that they are thinking about a contract extension would put huge question marks over their motives and strategy.

If this becomes a reality then no doubt Moyes will demand a greater say in control of things and we would lbe ikely to see more of the finished product signings which blighted Moshiris time here and put West Ham in the position they find themselves today.

It would also suggest that these owners would be putting their trust in a management which has no success of winning major trophies both international and domestic (obviously not including the Mickey mouse conference league which is like winning the Championship play offs).

If they commit to 3 or 4 years without tangible achievement then ambitions, acumen and motives must surely be questioned given they took Roma from being serial Champions league qualifiers and frequent title challengers under their previous ownership to regular sixth and seventh finishes under their stewardship.

Why on earth would they rush into a decision even if certain Moyes has their full backing. It's no[ like the Scot would be sought after by the big boys or could do any better than a huge club like Everton. If these owners had an ounce of sense they would sit tight until the end of his of his contract, assuming satisfaction, and monitor the success on the pitch while letting their new recruitment team implement their vision for the Club. If Moyes has earned his stripes then only at this time should a new contract be on the horizon.

TFG hold all the cards. This decision would not make strategic sense for them let alone their vision for the club and the policy of development of youth would be at risk.

I hope this is just paper talk.

All those managers had an opportunity, with Everton, Spurs & Villa. And all delivered the square root of fuck all. Walter Smith won about billion cups at Rangers.

But those past trophies, are as useful as swimming certificates in breaking into the top end.

My point isn't that they haven't won things, or been successful elsewhere. Or that Roberto won the Friendly Shield. Or that Moyes is put on a plinth & worshipped. Or that Jan Mucha is a Slovenia Allstar.

My point is that there is a glass ceiling that only City & Chelsea have broke through with a £7,000m to £8,000m transfer wedge.

EIGHT FUCKING BILLION.

And if you cant do that, you're pissing in the wind, whether you like Moyes, Harry, Alex or any other incumbent.

None of you will admit to that. It is decried along with a knife to a gun fight that it is all Moyes doing. But when City were signing Aguero, we were signing Dennis.

Frankly whether they won at Anfield, bar a day of entertainment, is irrelevant. You certainly don't get a trophy for it, which we will all be reminded of in a couple of weeks, whether Darren's toting it up on his abacus or not.

Ian Bennett 282: Did sacking Harry lead to them becoming winners?

"...they took Roma from being serial Champions league qualifiers and frequent title challengers under their previous ownership to regular sixth and seventh finishes under their stewardship."

That first part is false.

When TFG acquired Roma in August 2020, the team had finished 6th and 5th the two previous seasons, and had failed to qualify for the Champions League. They had been neither title contenders nor CL qualifiers since 2017-18.

Since TFG took over, Roma has finished 7th, 6th, 6th, 6th and 5th, and currently sits 6th.

No change from the level the club was at when they bought it.

I can always put that up again for you, but I'm not sure there would be any point. You wriggled and squirmed last time I put it up in response to your challenge.

You're doing that wriggling and squirming thing again Now you been given an incredibly lengthy list of the players who succeeded before Moyes and after him, but never while playing for him.

No need for an abacus regarding Moyes staggeringly poor away record at these grounds. We just have to count the scars.

Kevin

I rarely give Moyes's record a second thought. Why would I want to relive all that shame ?

But when I see people like you peddling intelligence insulting nonsense about Moyes having the best away record in the league. I feel compelled to expose your little porkie. I say porkie because it's not a mistake. You have been put right by a number of posters, but you continue to peddle it.

Our revenue base is, or rather has been, well in arrears of other mid-table clubs like Villa, West Ham, Newcastle and even Brighton. We've been under £200m, about 1/4 of the big boys.

That may change significantly by summer. I believe Angus projected a 50% revenue increase, which certainly seems possible with the new shirt deal, the new sponsorships with Budweiser/Pepsi/Heinz, and the sales of Goodison and the women's team.

Revenues of £300m would give TFG a shopping budget of ~£250m under the new SCR rules, which set a ceiling of 85% of revenues.

How close TFG comes to that spending cap will tell us a lot about their ambitions for the club.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c62dq9x4r77o

Here is some of the achievements of James Pallotta

Champions League qualification 5 successive seasons

Romas second best ever Champions League campaign when beaten in the semi final

Romas best series A record came under his tenure 87 points which would have won the league in many other years.

Over his entire reign only the juggernaut of Juve at their pomp had accrued more points than Roma did under Pallotta

Coppa Italia finalists

Pallotta achieved all this while continually having to balance the books with 3 second place finishes in his tenure. He didn't have the funds to make them a super power.

I heard you eulogise over TFG winning the conference league under TFG. For fuck sake under Pallotta they were competing at the top end of the table.and never in that competition.

Palottas record. TFGs record

6th 62 points. 7th 62 points

2nd 85 points 6th 63 points

2nd 79 points. 6th 63 points

2nd 87 points. 6th 63 points

3rd 77 points. 5th 69 points

6th 66 points. 6th 54points currently

5th 70 points

Even in his last season he accrued more points than TFG have ever achieved in their now 6th campaign and that was when things were apparently going tits up for Pallotta and they wanted him out

TFG took over a 6th place club, they remained a 6th place club, and they're still a 6th place club.

They didn't take the club down.

Pallotta certainly oversaw lots of wins at Roma, but the club was also in significant financial trouble when TFG bought it.

Mike you are to TFG what Kevin is to Moyes.

They took over with the promise of making Roma great and competing for major honours, instead they are dining in the Europa League year on year.

Everyone on here can see the current away table. feel free to keep putting up your carefully selected stat, but don't come moaning to me when I put up those facts that you find so unpalatable.

Talking about clumsy slight of hand. My "implacable focus" is not on Moyes 20 years ago. as you falsely claim.... Its on Moyes over the last twenty years.

In other words. His record has been shameful over decades.

My question is... why aren't you?

The crucial word being A trophy. Not trophies, just the one in his whole career.

So why, even if he is given a bucketload of money, will things be different with Moyes this time around?

I thought after the superb 3-0 Chelsea game you said there should be no criticism of Moyes after that performance, he’d answered his critics and what a brilliant job he’s doing atm, Darren? Surely if you don’t care about his record as you say you do and you’re happy with the here and now, then you wouldn’t be….getting so worked up about his record over 20 years?

As statements go Darren, that's pretty fucking special. No cat o nine tails, but another classic for sure.

Youll go around the houses of witch craft, but never answer the question of why any team hasn't smashed into the top teams without £8bn odd.

And why one hit wonders like Middlesbrough, Wigan, Swansea, Spurs, Portsmouth and Blackburn could never build on it.

You're a willey old fox/coward, but youll never have the balls to admit it was money, as that will undermine the argument that Moyes was boxing one handed in his first spell. Youll never climb down & be big enough to take it on.

So was it money Darren? or will you go off on any old tangent about black cats, brooms and Jan Mucha to avoid ever answering that simple question.

Cmon youre amongst friends now. A digital family, they deserve to know. John Collins certainly does.

Buck, buck, chicken 🐔.

302 Annika - read the article that Michael pulled tigether from my comments. Youll see that I am not convinced he will. I know, shite when that happens.

Link

Let me explain a few things to you

A) I didnt REALLY see Moyes chase onto the pitch lashing a player with a cat o nine tails. I was mocking your outraged when somebody suggested a player was being "Flogged"

B) I don't REALLY think I should be manager, I think everyone in "the Digital family" even John (Nasty little comment BTW) knew that - Cept maybe the hard of thinking.

I'll let you into another little secret - Looks over both shoulders and lowers his voice

C) I don't really have a cat with a better tactical awareness than Moyes. In fact I don't even have a cat. - But if I did ?

On another thread you asked for a list of managers who had won more than Moyes. I gave them to you.

You then brought money into it, so I pointed out they all had less than Moyes and worked for smaller clubs.

You then asked what they went on to achieve. But you don't understand that despite huge disadvantages in comparison to Moyes, they have already achieved more than he as.

I didnt claim to be a "wiley old fox/ Coward" They were your words. What I do know is that I only have to give you a few facts and I batter your never ending list of idiotic stats...Every time

You disappoint me. I thought you had a sharper wit and knew when you're claims were being mocked. Now I realise you were taking every word I said. Quite literally.

I want Moyes replaced by a better coach. One with better tactical know how. Who ? I'm sure somebody does have a cat idly sitting in their window.

Meeoowwwww

Witchcraft, by the way.

Wiley not Willey.

And then Devvers spews in, sniffing an opportunity, a chance, an opening perhaps, sensing possibly, possibly, he might have a fellow traveller to latch onto like an oxpecker climbing on an elephant's back.

Bless.

Bedsit blues.

Brentford Devvers? See you there? I thought not.

Ladies and gentlemen, the great Darren Hind has so much to say but wont take on that very simple question. Herding cats has never been easier.

The cat is out the bag, goes on about Moyes being a bottle job. But bottled himself.

See you later Top Cat, you've been made to look like Dibble.

Darren runs rings around you lad.

I find it funny.

I've been watching him do this for the best part of two decades now and you and the ineffectual timid toad Devvers are just the latest schooled johnny-come-latelys.

By the way IB, WTF are 'the houses of witch craft'? Witchcraft, by the way.

Please answer this very simple and direct question in say 3 sentences.

As for trying to claim that quite literally avoiding answering a simple question about a persons footballing stance is “having rings run around” him, well, I’ll just leave that one for everyone to bask in the glory of your endless, self-awareness-free hysterical ramblings.

Now, if you’re finished with your childlish rants, we can get on with talking about football. (And not getting ourselves banned or getting chased off the site, eh?)

Have a good day, PF. 😀

I get labelled many things on here but a critic of TFGs time at Everton... that's a first.

Indeed I have been criticised for defending them over why we couldn't get a Lukaku or didn't address the full back position.i outlined why they made some of the decisions like signing an unnecessary player like Rohl over priorities which nearly all of our fanbase wanted addressing.

Unfortunately you took exception to me pointing out the bare facts about how disappointing they have been for Roma and after after trying to kid others that this wasn't the case, you realise now you were pissing against the wind and so have tried to shift the goalposts.

The reality at Everton is that there was only one way to go. When Moshiris was investing the worst position we finished was 12th. Indeed just 6 months before TFG came to the club we were effectively in that very same position. The good thing we did during those troubled times was we kept the majority of our prized assets. Indeed our recent signings in Ndiaye and OBrien were excellent additions. We had a strong core to begin with.

My view is that so far they have done everything that was asked of them. However if the theme of the thread is true that will signify that the tail is wagging the dog and will question both their existing policy and what most Evertonians are desperate for from their owners ie winning silverware.

This summer will be huge for them now that we are on a more stable platform on and off the pitch. This is when we will see what they are really all about. I'll leave the cheerleading to you.

Grouty would be pleased that you tried to save him. He might even give you one of his crystallised fruits.

I let you into a little secret.

Schooled is when you can actually answer the question, rather than hide behind 14 paragraphs of incoherent guff. Or do they not teach that at your place?

Twenty years of smoke and mirrors, I can see why most get bored?

Maybe we will learn a lot more in the summer? I thought the speed of the way we operated last summer appeared slow and unprofessional, but then we heard the manager say that a lot of players wouldn’t come to Everton, because we couldn’t offer them European football.

The recruitment still hasn’t made an awful lot of sense. We spent a huge amount of money on Dibling, a sizeable sum on Aznou, with a lot more to come on Rohl, and only two of the players who were signed last summer have become first team regulars.

You ask so much many on here and most of them are mindless.

State which specific question you are referring to and I'll see if I can talk the cat into releasing my tongue.

Giving Moyes an extension to develop this young squad would prove an expensive mistake.

TFG’s recruitment has resulted in a group of young players who the manager refuses to play - Dibling, Aznou, Rohl, George, Alcaraz, to add to the young players he doesn’t want to play such as Barry and Patterson. 7 players the manager doesn’t want in a squad of 25.

So either you sell that talent at a loss this summer and offer Moyes a contract extension. Or you hire a manager can develop the young talent we have already signed.

I vote for the latter.

No, it is just an embarrassing level of failure.

Man Utd away - W1 D4 L13

Chelsea away - W0 D 7 L14

Arsenal away - W1 D4 L16

Liverpool away - W0 D6 L15.

That’s a win ratio of 2.4% for the away win specialist, Mr Moyes.

Looking forward to see how Kevin tries to finesse that record.

After making a complete Cheshire cat of yourself since you first logged on here, you finally understand the site is a football site. you demonstrate your football knowledge by spouting nonsense about us having two full backs that can "regularly" ping 70 yard passes.

Even your question is based on a lie. Why claim I said Moyes was doing a "brilliant" job ?. Do you think everyone is as daft as you are ? - Good luck finding that post.

You then get all cocky when you misconstrue my reluctance to engage you as ducking you daft arsed question. Really ? I may have considered answering it if you hadnt compounded your buffoonery by claiming Eddie Howe has never won at the BMD.

Get back to me when you've upped your game

As for my point that you were praising Moyes barely a week ago, and that he’s answered his critics, you said, “ Again, we attacked with real aggression. We let Chelsea fuck about where they couldn't hurt us and countered with a real purpose. Can't see any complaints coming about the manager in this thread. He's giving his critics exactly what they want by sending his team out to win. Fair play to him.”

My point being - maybe, just maybe, as you yourself have correctly alluded to by clearly saying he’s answered his critics and has, demonstrated over the last few games that he’s thrown off the shackles a bit and instilled enough confidence in the team to the point where we’re capable of beating anyone at this moment. Ask Arsenal fans how much they were shitting themselves up to the end of the game, we were the better team at the league leader and put 6 away against Newcastle and Chelsea. Is there anything in there that you can (civilly, reasonably), disagree with?

I may have even been overplaying our past revenues, partly to make a point. For sure there are some teams below us- in some cases who have routinely our performed us- but nearer bottom than top for revenue as you say.

I would be very pleasantly surprised if we had a 50% revenue increase this year but when I try and figure out how that £100m would break down, I can't find it. The shirt deal would add at best £5m incremental. The others are partnerships and they don't tend to put that much on the bottom line, maybe another £5m incremental. You forgot the big one which is the stadium sponsorship and that is an extra £10m (don't think Goodison had such a sponsor so it's all incremental). Then I could see matchday revenues producing an incremental £5-10m (the latter might be a stretch given Goodison was only £20m a year but we're much better on higher margin corps and hospitality). Non club use of the stadium is potentially lucrative but nothing I've seen to date suggests big sums. The sale of Goodison and the women's team is a one off and non recurring. So I can get to maybe £25m or so. Then I imagine we might hope for incremental on TV and place money. £10m? Maybe more?

Basically I can't get to £50m still less £100m. On the upside, there is still some incrementals to come, especially on the stadium side. Those build costs just didn't add up unless you could get at least an extra £30m revenue from it. But I think this will be a slower build than our CEO thinks.

From 2002 until the present day, Moyes has managed in the EPL, for a little over twenty years, so this is his actual record in twenty seasons.

During that period he also got Everton to three domestic semifinals, and Manchester United one, but no such luck for the happy Hammers, during his managerial reign.

David has always imo, been a flat track bully, and this explains why he had the confidence to go and win the conference cup. He’s not a bad manager, he’s never really had the best players, but he’s proven he’s a competent manager, whilst it still remains if he can be much more.

He prefers experience, but so do most managers, especially in the ultra physical EPL, but has he got that real inner belief to go with the the massive experience that he has built up managing for twenty years in the top division of English football?

38% win percentage at BMD? That's not even a swallow. I don't think we need to be thinking about springs just yet.

Funny really; Eddie Howe (The fella who has never won there) has a much better win percentage at BMD than Dithering Dave. And (rather embarrassingly). A better goal difference

Arguing over the past right up until the present date, isn’t really trying to run before we could walk, to me, but I suppose I’m being a bit deluded when I say Everton, have not been in real relegation trouble for nearly three years, mate?

It’s boring, loads of point scoring, loads of half truths, I’d had enough of it the other day and then I read Conor, getting accused of things he hadn’t quite said, and this just confirmed to me that people would sooner be correct, rather than debate the more interesting things that might have come out of this thread, like a recurring comfort blanket🙈

I must definitely DONT accept money played a part in Moyes coming up short in his first stint.

From a league position I don't think he did come up short. Playing against clubs with much greater resources will take it's toll over a period of 38 games.

Moyes always knew He/We couldnt win a 38 game league where 4-5 teams had two players for every position...But then I have never heard anyone criticise him for where he finished in the table.

There are two reasons why he is so unpopular with a large section of the fan base. The first being his disgusting attitudes towards cup competitions. He has always been prepared to trade the dreams of our wonderful fans for his own holy grail. Respectability.

I think I could be here all night listing the squandered opportunities. The shameful capitulations. The utter contempt he showed towards fans who followed their team, not just up and down this country but all over Europe. While he earned a fortune. They spent a one.

People talk about the semi final against the shite. That shambolic performance against Wigan. The shame in Lisbon, but they are just a handful of examples of the many many games he has thrown away before a ball was kicked. He is/was a natural born loser. A surrender monkey

Cup competitions are a great leveller. Thats why so many managers from much poorer clubs have won trophies with far weaker teams than the ones Moyes has failed with.

Simply put, he is a Frankie Howard. His arse is notorious for carrying at the crucial moment. He has proven over and over again that he simply doesnt believe he can win an important one off game.

He spent years in charge of what many people believed was the "best of the rest" yet he defied the law of averages by not even getting close to a trophy. Clubs from Wales, Birmingham and the south coast all managed what he could'nt.

No team can win a trophy if the manager doesnt believe they can. All the money in the world wont change that.

And if Money cant change it. What chance as endless reams of apologetic drivel got ?

Well, each to their own. For my own part, I won't be campaigning for removal of the manager cos we played a shadow team against Barnsley in 2004.

For me, it's all about the Premier League. Those silly little cups can be fired into outer space for all I care.

What I think that saids unfortunately, is that you think the Kenwright model was appropriate for Everton during that period.

Either finance was or wasn't appropriate. You can't have it both ways.

The finance was enough to keep them in a respectable league position so you say - but never enough to break the teams above.

You have long been against 'plucky Everton", but yet you seemed happy with the league position of best of the rest, which is 100% a banner for 'plucky Everton'.

From a league position I don't think he did come up short. Playing against clubs with much greater resources will take it's toll over a period of 38 games.

Now that is an eye opener.

For me they are linked. A lack of money denied the club the ability the two players needed for each position, that you rightly point out is needed to get you near the top.

The lack of finance also denies you actual game winners, that win cup finals or big games at away grounds.

Alan Ball was probably the greatest example of that. A thorn in the Anfield side, scored winners there, and an English transfer record between two English sides. Class costs.

My favourite quote. "Everton's scouting network was legendary. They spotted Alan Ball playing a World Cup Final".

Bosh, have that. We are the biggest club, and our money proves it. Those were the fucking days. Nil Satis at its best, when it was a belief not a screen saver.

Football and finance is sadly an unbreakable bond, and you know it. Kenwright not having the loot, will have certainly impacted Moyes time. The top 5 have won 85 major trophies since 2000. The rest a tiny % of that number. The difference, finance.

I know it, you know it, we all know it.

I can understand the disappointment after those games. The emotion of your post is telling, and I won't put the boot in.

I have sympathy, but you are wrong.

Curiosity killed the cat.

Sounds very condescending that, something one of Starmer's aids might have said to the Andy Burnham camp before he was refused the chance to stand in the Gorton & Denton bye-election!

Darren's post is not emotional at all. It is calm, factual and written with emphasis. The embarrassing Cup exits he lists are still fresh in our minds, and I thought of others as I was reading the post. Too many.

Ian's point about finance making it impossible to compete with the Big 6 in domestic cup competitions falls down every time over this point -- Newcastle Utd, Swansea City, Birmingham City, Middlesbrough, Blackburn Rovers, Crystal Palace, Leicester City, Wigan Athletic and Portsmouth have all won domestic trophies since David Moyes first took over at Everton in 2002.

Ian wrote paragraphs on other threads trying to rationalise this away, but it is simply fact.

"Football and finance is sadly an unbreakable bond" - someone had better tell the fans of these nine clubs that it was some random glitch in the matrix that led to them winning a trophy, rather than courage, commitment and hard work. I think they will remember it differently.

And beg to differ, no doubt.

I’m sure Michael, created a very good article, that gave us some very sensible debate the other week by taking three of Ian’s posts, and chopping off the edges before then combining them into a thread, and I don’t think he would have been able to do this if Ian, never talked a lot of sense?

You could imo, do the same with some of his stuff in this thread, and title it “why do we even bother”

The people who have reservations over David Moyes, would love to be proven wrong and more for themselves than anyone else because at the end of the day, the only person who doesn’t sound that bothered about winning trophies, is my mate Kevin!!

Money never stopped us beating Liverpool at Wembley, Wigan at Goodison, or knowing how to approach playing Fiorentina away, and for all David Moyes’s good points, my own view is that he was a failure the first time around because he created some good teams, and some of those teams were definitely good enough to have won something.

I was getting told by a very good blue yesterday, that Moyes is getting himself a new contract, so hopefully he’s learned from experience and he’s ready to deliver us something this time.

Another Evertonian, was telling me that Moyes and Irvine, were overwhelmed by the coach welcoming against Chelsea, and Moyes, allegedly gave the players a fantastic speech about how they were very lucky to be in such a well paid job, but nothing could compare to seeing such love coming from the people who were there to greet them.

I hope Irvine, told the players about the scenes before the 1984 cup final, I said after hearing that story, just like I hope to bump into our Kevin at Wembley next season🤞

I am disappointed. I thought you would want to set the record straight, that Moyes had enough cash and you're no Kenwright apologist - the thing, is how do you square that when you refused the finance argument.

Quite a puzzler isn't it.

Let me try again. Finance has seen us miss out on a truck load of players, that could have taken this club back to where it belonged. Of course you needed good people to over see it, the Moshiri era proves that point.

But if you don't have finance, you aren't relevant. Everton's weak business model never kept up with the competition. It's antiquated ground and poor board leadership, condemned the club to slipping from the elite.

Two players born within three miles of each other proves this point. One an unbelievable striker. Another a fantastic midfielder. Both had a winning mentality, both at clubs that had financial issues. Both that would have died for their club.

Of course I am talking Wayne Rooney & Steven Gerrard. Wayne Rooney the player at the peak of his powers in 2004, sold to appease the banks because the finances and business model of the club were shite.

Did he want to leave? No. Did Moyes want to sell him? No. Could he have won us matches at away grounds and cup finals. Id venture he could. We let a generational talent walk down the road, and be the highest scorer for United & England history, two years into Moyes reign - and you're telling me finance wasn't an issue.

But what about Steven Gerrard. Liverpool kept him, despite Gillet & Hicks best efforts. Liverpool had the finance to keep the lad in place, and he rewarded that with every honour he picked up. Fa Cups, Champions Leagues, League Cups, Uefa cup, even wins at away grounds. A legend at his club.

Finance has dogged Everton for years. How many times have players been pushed out because the cash was needed down the years? Ball, Keown, Ferguson, Speed, Richarlison, Rooney, Arteta to name a few. All good players youd keep in a heart beat.

How many players wanted out as their ambition could not be matched by our ability to deliver? Gordon, Jeffers, Lukuku, Barmby, Lescott, far more I am sure.

How many times have we watched players not up to the task, because that's all we could afford?

I take it Steve/Tony, that you agree the Kenwright finance approach wasn't an issue. And that the league position was good enough for a club like ours? The odd cup and finishing the 5th-7th is the best we should hope for. That those 9 clubs are our peers?

There's whole separate debate that clubs don't even care about these Minor Cups. Piddling prize money, weakened sides. And the sack for winners when the league form suffers. The board pays the salary, the manager is just an employee.

What a disgusting defeatist attitude you prove to every TW'r that you have. You show all the fighting characteristics of Homer Simpson - "Cant win, don't try".

I firmly believe that you and the band of happy clappers you belong to, are an albatross around the neck of this great institution.

Nowhere do I say I am happy with the league position - You lied (as usual) about that.

I expressed a sympathy of how difficult it was to win the league with 4-5 teams better off. But that doesnt mean Moyes's cowardice didnt prevent us winning at the grounds of the big boy's. Thus giving us a much greater chance of qualifying for the elite Tournament. Your holy grail.

It doesnt mean that these clubs didnt have below par seasons and we couldnt have gate crashed the party if Moyes had shown the ambition

Your pathetic attempts to hide your defeatism by writing Alan Ball's history doesnt wash.

Different time. Different place and the only way Moyes would have got into Goodison back then was if he paid to get in like everybody else.

This - "The lack of finances also denies you actual game winners, that win cup finals, or away games at away grounds" Fuck me.

What chance has this club got with fans like you ? while Kopites put up flags demanding their team 6th best team in the league "make us dream" You cant wait to get your white flag up.

There is a reason why you look upon a total surrender monkey as your idol. See if you can figure it out ?

I'm sick and tired putting up examples of all those managers who are not called Moyes and who have won trophies despite not having anywhere the resources available to him, Every day I see better informed people try to educate you, but you are a lost cause. Undiluted sycophancy has rendered your brain impenetrable.

Sport by its very nature is all about overcoming disadvantages. Every participant and every spectator knows that. They know that being poorer than the opponents can make winning even more difficult, but they also know that nobody ever won a thing unless they believed they could, You don't understand sport. You certainly don't understand football.

I don't mind being told I'm wrong by somebody who understands sport. Somebody who can prove it But I wont be told I'm wrong by some ambitionless, card carrying, surrender monkey who fails to grasp the very essence of the game.

You're a walking excuse factory. Irrefutable proof that a "cant win, Dont try" attitude is so much more damaging that any financial disadvantage could ever be.

See ya

I never accepted that bastard. (Don’t speak ill of the dead, even though the self centred, self obsessed, lying self preserving bastard, gave us absolutely nothing, but good times and lies🤮) and my own view is that I wish we had never had arguably the greatest scouse footballer of all time, because it was only the money from his sale that kept Bill Kenwright, in charge, changing narratives, lowering expectations and helped to keep a very average manager in charge of Everton football club, for so long, because David, allegedly kept us punching above our weight.

Cups don’t matter, but if you stop winning them then it doesn’t take long for a club, to stop being relevant imo.

From a league position I don't think he did come up short. Playing against clubs with much greater resources will take it's toll over a period of 38 games.

So were you happy about the league position, or did he come up short? Not coming up short, implies you are happy.

No

I must definitely don't accept money played a part in Moyes coming up short in his first stint.

Was the Kenwright administration successful in its aims, by ensuring that its manager was adequately backed or not? Money didn't play a part in it. So it would seem that you would endorse that Kenwright was successful in that aim.

See if you can conjure up a scenario where thousands and thousands...And thousands of fans accepted that the manager was at a disadvantage when competing against 4-5 richer clubs Then (this is the bit which will stretch your intelligence). See if you can imagine all those thousands of fans being happy with that situation.

THEN!!!. Actually, nah, forget it.

I was going to ask what that has to do with all those cowardly cup surrenders, but I realise that would definitely be over-taxing you.

BTW "was Kenwright administration successful in its aim? "

Fucking right it was. Moyes was an essential part of that administration. The aim was to manage expectation. You are living proof that its still working to this day.

I love that you are trying to push others into the kenwright corner whilst defending everything that went on at the club when he was around.

You need an element of wit and guile to misrepresent other posters. Thats why you can never quite pull it off

I'll continue to keep it civil. Let's see if you can too.

Misrepresent other posters? They're your words.

So did he come up short in the league position or not?

From a league position I don't think he did come up short.

No, I must definitely DONT accept money played a part in Moyes coming up short in his first stint.

Final question.

Was the Kenwright administration successful in delivering the finance to to Moyes to compete? Yes or No, based on you already said money wasn't an issue.

Two very simple questions.

You told me yesterday you don't duck questions. I've one more, what changed?

Short of drawing up pictures I don't see how else to answer them.

No I most definitely don't think money can be used as an excuse for Moyes coming up short. I have said I believe his cowardice was the single most important factor in him winning NOTHING - please explain which bit of that you are struggling to understand ?

He managed this club in five different competitions, (off the top) I will judge his performance over all of them. There are numerous examples of him shitting himself in every one of them.

I answered the Kenwright Question about whether his aim was successful or not. I used you as a classic example. I wont be coming back to respond every time you try to re-jig your question.

it's a footy forum, not amateur hour down the Perry Mason club

Over Moyes's first spell, he definitely under-achieved. For me, he had relied on players here before he arrived.

Having spoken with that "very good blue" yesterday, do you feel a contract extension for Moyes is more of a probability rather than a mere possibility?

A poster on the People's Forum just now says Moyes has left the club by mutual consent.

I have said I believe his cowardice was the single most important factor in him winning nothing -- please explain which bit of that you are struggling to understand?

"Single most" -- what were the other factors, if not money? 'Most' isn't 'all'.

What I struggle to understand is why his biggest critic wont go near:-

That if you have to sell players like Wayne Rooney and buy inferior cheap players, then that will reduce your sporting chance of being successful. Do you not think Wayne would have made a difference in a vital area of the pitch? Do you accept that Wayne was sold because of Kenwright's weak finances?

That you won't come out and say one of the reasons Moyes failed was because of a lack of backing from Kenwright.

You're very good on the put-downs. And perhaps that impresses your chums after two decades. Me, I see someone that refuses the conversation, apologetic pap and swerving at its finest.

You can go back to sleep now, Bagpuss. Nothing more to say.

I could be like a few people on here and use anything to try and win an argument by saying that, when Rooney was sold, Everton went from achieving their worst Premier League points tally in 17th, to coming 4th.

That would be foolish though because we all knew how good the kid was, just like some of us knew that we were not that far away when David got all the money from the sale of Lescott and never really improved the team.

There would be a difference of opinion with regards to his best ever signing but the money he spent on little Timmy Cahill, just before Rooney was sold for a pittance, would be my pick, rather than the ridiculous signing of Bilyaletdinov, simply because it was alleged he had never even watched him play.

Really?

Well I’ll be - how thick must I be eh?

We won't win a trophy during his second tenure, regardless of how long he is in the job.

Q -- If I make a daft-arsed claim that you were happy with our league position, would you agree that lack of funds stopped Moyes winning anything?

A -- No.

Q -- Okay, if I rephrase the question and make some totally irrelevant long-winded reference to Alan Ball, would you agree that lack of funds stopped Moyes from winning anything?

A -- No.

Q -- Okay then, if I was to insist that lack of funds was the sole reason, then make an idiotic attempt to make you agree by telling you that you are wrong, would you not agree that lack of funds stopped Moyes winning anything?

A -- No.

Q -- Right then, if I tried to misrepresent you (again) and tried the old "isolate 'em" routine by putting you into the Kenwright camp, would you not agree that lack of funds stopped Moyes from winning anything?

A -- No.

Q -- Okay, what if I tried to accuse you of ducking the question because you didn't give me the answer I wanted, would you agree that lack of funds stopped Moyes from winning anything?

A -- No.

Q -- My Welsh windbagary isn't cutting any ice here, is it?

A --Err... No.

Q) What if I mention Wayne Roo......

But that isn't the criterion that keeps managers in jobs, whether fans like it or not. And it isn't a criterion that this club has achieved very much either.

So do you think Moyes received the right backing from Kenwright to win honours? Or do you think the Kenwright business model was working?

Do you think Rooney could have made a difference if finances had been in place? Darren, it appears wasn't prepared to take that on. Perhaps you will?

I am of the school that finance held him back. Sport is about being as competitive as possible, it is why the winners of F1 are two seconds a lap quicker than the rest, and why the top clubs have won what they have.

I doubt Moyes has got that winning mentality, or sometimes sheer luck to deliver, but there's not many I'd hang my hat on that have.

A different argument but I got an April Fools' text yesterday showing the great Everton team of the eighties parading the European Cup. I explained why I didn't find it funny (because that particular team was the only Everton team that I've seen who were good enough and they were denied the chance).

I then explained that Kendall's Everton were doing what Jurgen Klopp became famous for 40 years ago. It's not rocket science, I listen to match going Liverpudlians telling me they are bored stiff watching Slot's slow and methodical football, and it makes me shake my head and think about us poor fucking Evertonians, 31 years without a trophy.

I don't need my memory to understand why only two managers have been successful at Everton. One took over a team at the bottom, got us to Wembley, by playing very aggressively (with just a little sprinkling of craft) and when we beat Spurs at Elland Rd, his quote to the press was definitely made in Liverpool.

The other watched his old midfield partner's reserve team playing, and instantly saw something that he knew would make Everton successful, and immediately promoted his mate, to become first team coach.

How did they play? Very fucking aggressively, full of hard running, full of fight, very tough and with more than enough flair.

The key to making Everton great again is what is getting done on the training ground. (Of course money is a major part of it, but look at what Slot has just spent last summer to bore the Liverpool supporters to tears) and always has been.

The Premier League is a very different beast to when we won anything. Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool have spent fortunes more than we have which has given them advantages in all sorts of ways.

Sure we could have maybe won a cup given fortunate fixtures and a little luck but I think a league title has been a extreme longshot.

Clearly the 'Moyes Out' Kryptonite is to mention that Rooney was sold early into the reign that deprived the team of a vital ingredient, & that Kenwright must have been a good Chairman, if he provided Moyes with the suitable amount of wonga.

Glad we got there in the end.

He would have attracted better players to the club to play with him and he'd have given us that extra bounce of pride.
Let alone the skills.

He went to Man Utd and Fergie turned him into a very good team player to fit Man Utd. Fergie curbed his genius.
If he'd stayed with us, he could've been a God.

Rooney Played 67 games for Moyes in that time and despite already being a Superstar at International level Moyes turned him into a 1 in 4 striker -- while everyone else could see his brilliance, daft arse put him on the wing.

The usual shameful early cup exits happened in both seasons Rooney was with us -- did he ever experience getting past the first hurdle with Moyes? Once maybe?

Then of course came his second season. Moyes was surely wiser? Unfortunately not. he seemed to be the only one inside Goodison who didn't know we should have been building a team around this freak of nature. He couldn't wait to sub him half the time. We finished 17th. Missing the drop by one place.

Would Moyes have gotten the best out of this kid? Clearly not. He went to Man Utd and Fergie got more goals out of him in 8 months than the Frankie got out of him in 2 years... Fergie let him play, you see.

The saddest thing for Rooney was he left the club he loved. The best thing for his career was that got to fuck away from Deadly Davey. Yet another superstar who won nothing after being dragged down to the level of the careful one. That was to become a theme...

Moyes was to have the last laugh on his critics and Fergie. He spent the dosh on players like Marcus Bent, Phil Neville and Kevin Kilbane, Simon Davies, Per Krøldrup and Biffa. They were much more to his liking. Why, before you could say "Negative goal difference", respectability had been restored.

Keep going.

And that the Kenwright model was fit for purpose in providing the necessary finance to Moyes?

I'll take a Yes or a No.

Well, we know he didn't, don't we? He was here 2 years, we didn't get a sniff of a cup run... and we finished 17th. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.

Read it and weep. No wonder he fucked off to play for a proper manager.

And that the Kenwright model was fit for purpose in providing the necessary finance to Moyes?

You taking on that Kryptonite?

My own view as a very longstanding Evertonian, is that the club, will only be “genuinely transformed” once we start challenging for honours once again.

It will be interesting to see the length of the contract that is given to David Moyes.

Ian@373, Bill Kenwright was never fit enough for Everton, and because he wasn’t good enough, he actually kept a manager, who never won us a trophy in eleven seasons.

How this was acceptable and allowed to happen is something I have never truly been able to get my head around, and if I think about it long enough it actually makes me very angry and completely sickens me.

" it was clear that once we got into our new stadium and got away from the totally incompetent people who had been running our club, that things would begin to improve."

And of course by then Moyes was back!

Michael K.

Not that I mind but the "Edit" button seems to be available for an age?

Just testing there Michael just in case that doesn't across in my posts.

I think Wayne wakes up in the morning and thinks "OK, it's Friday...what's the line for my leaving Everton today?"

Missed one Michael?

It was always on the cards mate.

Nothing like the nightmare of the Moshiri years for me.

Is it just me Michael?

Perhaps it is system reward for being on TW for 30 years or reaching 100,000 posts

Right I'm going to bed. Does TW do "wake up" calls?

Little wet wipe.

Oh, and you didn't answer my question. That's odd, it isn't you is it who goes on and on and on and on and on and on that Darren doesn't answer your questions?

Hard to believe that an erm Evertonian did not know that we got smacked by Eddie and co.

Philip Devlin 327: Ian, ah fuck yeah, they did, didn’t they?

It was 1-4 not 2-5. 😎x2

My sentiments exactly. Moyes and Kenwright were two peas in a pod. Both changed the mindset of many Evertonians, If you condoned Moyes You condoned Kenwright.

Here's a couple of gems from Arse kissing Davey

"He was brilliantly supportive. I could not have had a better chairman"

"He was a "PERFECT" chairman"

"When I look at modern football nowadays. How difficult is it for young managers to make their way. Bill Kenwright was great to work with"

"We had some great times over 11 years" - Here's the best bit - "We had some successful Moments".

There you have it. Undiluted sycophancy towards his co- expectation manager. Gushing praise for the man who made him the richest failure in sport. Davey clearly had enough going into his own arse pocket to keep him happy.....And quiet.

Another bit of "Kryptonite" mocked. These incredibly cunning "traps" may have people scratching their heads down at the Llanberis workies club on bingo night, but I mix with people who know this club inside out. They have cats who could ask more challenging questions

What happened to I don't duck questions, I just ask my cat to release my tongue.

I am disappointed, as the professor had built you up an undefeated heavy weight champion. You can thank him for "running rings around you lad". (he owes you a beer for that btw).

But perhaps they don't ask the right questions at his educational establishment. Spelling & grammar more his area of expertise, as he, like your good self, and plenty of the chums, none will answer a simple question when ive said money was a factor.

Arrogance is often defined as a loud, insecure, and ultimately destructive form of excessive pride, acting as a barrier to personal growth and genuine connection. Key takeaways include that it masks deep insecurity, hinders learning, and serves as the root of many personal failings. Tony & Paul inspired a look at a dictionary, after contradiction, & witchcraft. Everyone loves Countdown, and the clock is ticking on this conundrum.

Saying the Kenwright business model was fit for purpose, is a bigger stain on any evertonian than admitting Moyes was adequately resourced. It is checkmate. And the last 3 days has proved it my old mucker.

The irony of the jibes of Homer Simpson, Welsh windbaggery, being schooled, poor intellect, and anything else that you can sling for days, is that with a bit perseverance and a simple question, you've been shown up.

Your mumble swerve sidestep up there with the best. Hell Phil Bennett would be proud of it, whether it was at bingo or not. I'll give you his signed shirt. Sure you'd appreciate Bennett on the back.

If you're not prepared to answer the question after 3 days. Ill take that you agree it was a factor. The clock has ticked, the exam is finished, last orders called in Llanberis.

So you getting off the pot and answering?

That the Kenwright model was fit for purpose in providing the necessary finance to Moyes?

More Windbaggery. Agreeing with somebody does not constitute "hiding behind them" Yet ANOTHER false claim on your part - the list is beginning to look endless.I simply took what Tony said and put a little more meat on the bones.

How very damaging to your argument. For you to see Moyes showing the same level of Sycophancy to Kenwright as you do to him. I so enjoyed putting that up.

For the record ; People on here have seen me batter away at Kenwright's lies and deception for years. I have never felt he was able to back ANY of his managers, Nice try but I have been front and center when it comes to hammering away at him. No need to prove anything to you.

I am acutely aware that some gullible mugs have been taken in by the gruesome twosome. You being a prime example.

You probably wont find too many people battering kenwright anymore. You may have suddenly just realised his shortcoming (and only then is desperation to defend his partner)but those you accuse have been slaughtering him for years. On these very pages. They`re all Kenwrighted out

As for "running rings around you" (haha. I knew that was what was making you froth all over your keyboard). Paul got that wrong. I just stood and watched as you chased yourself up your own arse...

there has been no examination. Just you making a complete Cheshire cat of yourself without actually realising it.

Absolutely loving the fact that you think you are worthy of conducting an exam.

'none [sic] will answer a simple question when ive said money was a factor' 😆

'If you're not prepared to answer the question after 3 days'. 🤣

Hypocrite.

But perhaps they don't ask the right questions at his educational establishment. Spelling & grammar more his area of expertise, as he 😆

Ah, IB, you clearly don't understand how universities work. I get a salary to teach but more importantly research, write, and publish. Six books so far. Another on the way.

You're like an annoying thing that won't go away. I've had many pops at Darren, though, to be fair, the majority were a decade or so ago. One thing I know as I came to respect him was our shared stance on Kenwright.

Your monotonous question, answer mine, is rooted in just one aspect of Kenwright's disgusting record.One. There are so many other issues to take on board like, e.g., Moyes had the safest position courtesy of chubby chops than any other PL manager except for SAF.

That was scandalous. And, IB, Darren HAS ANSWERED YOUR FECKING REPETITIVE QUESTION ABOUT BK AND FUNDS.

He's said it's one of multiple factors.

Now answer my question lad.

You've had long enough.

So the conclusion from the big man was this.

1. The league placing didn't come up short.

2. Rooney wouldn't have made a difference to cups or winning at the big away grounds.

3. The Kenwright model was flawed, and it failed to provide Moyes with the finance to compete. Moyes was not the only issue.

Paul got that wrong. Fucking right he did.

Happy Easter.

You strike me as a philistine, sadly. I have a very different image of my 3 cities - Liverpool, Dublin, and Chicago.

But most of all IB, you're so fecking nagging, boring, repetitive, pedantic, and selective.

Answer my question lad. Nobody surely would want to call you a hypocrite. Hear that noise ... optamus?

I am not by the way. But it is interesting that you have a disdain for those type of people, that work to ensure education can be paid for.

I thought you were better than that. Poor.

Rule number 1, never bring class, sexual orientation, religion, politics or earnings into an argument about football.

Ive never strayed from that, and I don't intend to start with you.

Moyes is back, he’s transformed the club, and now that Blue Bill is no longer with us, he must surely have a great chance of becoming our new saviour!

Let’s just hope The Silent Friedkin’s, are not here to accept the same mundane mediocrity of the Kenwright years, even if they’ve only given us some chicken wings, so far!

I am not by the way. But it is interesting that you have a disdain for those type of people, that work to ensure education can be paid for.

Erm, tuition across the board at the same rate that research shows conclusively has prevented kids form 'poorer' levels from accessing university and has led to middle-class kids drowning in significant debt.

How pathetic - 'disdain'. My characterisation was aimed at you and nobody else.

As a working class lad from Liverpool, the first of my family to go to uni, who ended up with a Cambridge PhD and research fellowship at Clare College - founded 1324 - and 9 years at Cantabridgia with a season ticket, by the way, I have spent my working life starting at Cambridge urging others to recognise working class talent.

What have you done lad to try and improve the lives of the conventially dispossessed? Now, I make trips to small rural communities to spread the potential of education.

That's two questions that you now need to answer.

Perhaps you can't accept that a working class lad from North Liverpool could become a Fellow of Cambridge's second oldest college. How sad is that?

You do the good work on your stage lad and I'll do it on mine. What is your 'good work' other than zzzzzzzzzz pedantry and yawn repetition and yawn hypocrisy?

The ref just told me that he stopped the fight in the 2nd round.

And thanks for the CV, but like your books, I aint interested. I think you"re confusing toffeeWeb with LinkedIn.

Meanwhile, back on track IB, keep firing your fiber thin rockets at Darren, and keep asking him to answer your questions.

Oh, and answer mine while you're at, because I don't believe for one second that you are a hypocrite.

And, by the way, the main reason Moyes failed at Everton was not lack of money.

Education is everything, so important, especially in these modern times when it seems like the whole world is being run by self centred politicians, not many of whom are there for the greater good of humanity

Give it a rest guys, it only started with a difference of opinion about Moyes.

The only point I would make, is to say that the money a manager has available to spend doesn't effect the results he achieves is just plain wrong.

May as come as a surprise, but I am not in interested in someone that puts down lowly civil servants and people in bedsits.

But I risk breaking my rule. So that's all I can say.

Rule number 1, never bring class, sexual orientation, religion, politics or earnings into an argument about football.

I kept looking at the number of posts hoping it would get past the 400 thinking this is like a TW of old.

If Ian hadnt have stood his ground. I doubt we would have gotten past 200. I think he is talking utter nonsense, But fair play to him. I thought it was kinda fun.

I will never understand posters doing what you are doing, Calling for others to pack it in. You do realise that there are many many other threads going on on this website and if you don't like what you read on this one, there are plenty of others ?

You not only chose this one. You stick your two penneth worth in as well.

Thats me done here. There are two many glass collectors on this site trying to tell the drinkers what they should be drinking

No wonder so many ToffeeWebbers have left in the last 6 months - at least they don’t have to witness the levels of anger and toxicity in this thread. Life’s too short for this shit.

We have had enough chopping and changing of managers over the last number of seasons that changed nothing, and this is the first season where we are happily looking forward to a possible place in a European Competition. On this basis alone { I cant believe I am saying this } he should be given another season.

We are under new ownership, new ground, new staff that all bring different views on how the club should be run. As supporters we have suffered from instability over at least the last 10 seasons that has brought various managers, ownership, unsuitable financial companies and individuals whose ambition was to see how much they got and not how well the team done.

This season is showing signs of stability as a club, with the senior team

in a decent league position,and I think it will be on the final run of games that should determine how well D.Moyes, is doing, and if he should be retained as manager

I agree completely. The main perpetrators know exactly who they are and their main objective is to wind up other users.

We are not tolerating it any more, and if that means throttling posts so they can be reviewed first, that is what we will do.

We'll start, as you suggest, by terminating this thread.

Happy Easter to all our Readers!