West Ham 2-1 Everton: What We Learned

In the redshite game, it looked like they were targetting Pickford to keep him on the line. There was crowding and wrestling in the goalmouth to not allow movement of the goalie.

This can only be fixed by the refs booking players and awarding a free kick as soon as the ball is put in play, something they're not interested in doing.

The Hammers game seemed more open at corners and it was defender errors that accounted for the loss.

What I learned:

Referees are shite.

And VAR, Edward!

That goes without saying, Eric.

Patric,

You say Pickford staying on his line is a tactic, has Moyes and his coaches told the rest of Everton's defence this?

I believe the late goal we conceded at Arsenal where Pickford came out and lost it must have some subconscious role in the staying on the line.

I don't think Jordan ever feels comfortable with high balls, and I firmly believe that has always been the case since the day he signed for us, it's always been a slight Achilles Heel here with him.

The Origi goal at Anfield brings me back to this, a nothing ball floating out for a goal kick that Jordan was so uncertain about and results in a madcap fluke.

Another springs to mind in the previous season at Anfield in the FA Cup under Allardyce, scored by Van Dijk, was unerringly like last week's header.

Jordan is an amazing goalkeeper but I've definitely noticed a weak spot there on high balls, crosses, set plays.

What I learned was that the match going fans have turned.

At the Arsenal game, most people I spoke to were still backing Moyes. Some were actually incredulous that I expressed doubts.

Yesterday, people were pissed off and from 60 minutes onwards, the discontent was palpable. After the game, it was vociferous.

Moyes was almost as vilified as Barry.

They haven't got a fucking clue, those away fans, Mark, most of them only go to get pissed!

What do they expect? It's been a hard season with a small squad and we had three of our best players out the team yesterday.

Being serious, I never watched our game yesterday, but I wasn't surprised by the result.

We've learnt that when we need to pull out a performance under a bit of pressure, too many don't turn up.

Tarkowski, McNeil, Mykolenko, Keane, Barry and Gana just are not good enough, they are not going to be good enough next season, European football or not.

Dewsbury-Hall, Garner, Branthwaite and Ndiaye are the only players any team who gets into Europe next season would even consider.

Time to really cull the mediocrity that's in the squad this summer.

Oh Pickford too can stay 🤣

I'd let Pickford go. He pulls off some brilliant shot-stopping but is often a liability.

He doesn't command his area and is terrible on crosses. There's very few supporters of other teams who would want him despite his England credentials.

He's always reminded me of a fireman that sets his own fires just so he can try to put them out and play the hero.

Cue the outrage... like when I said giving Coleman a contract last year was a complete waste of money, basically paying millions for a cheerleader,

What we've learnt is our recruitment is a disgrace and we're still run like a charity… see Michael Keane's voluntary improvement in terms despite him having an extra year option on the same terms as this year.

I've learned that those who knew, knew.

Others have simply spouted sycophantic pap trying to defend the richest failure in football by talking about this "staggering improvement".

I hope when Moyes fucks off, he takes those with a similar loser's mentality with him. Happy clap mediocrity and you will have it served up to you by the bucket-full.

People surely can't be serious when saying we should let Pickford go?

#5 Dave

Yes I think it's tactical mate (without knowing for sure ofc!). He has not come off his line from such situations all season. The CBs and near-post defender are tasked with making first contact.

I reckon this is due to Pickford's lack of relative height. He's not 6'5, but he's brilliant at other things. You have to compensate so the onus is then on the defenders to make that 'first contact'.

When they do, it's fine -- and Everton's record for defending set-pieces this season is middle of the road in the Premier League -- but when they do miss, and the delivery is spot on, it results in basically a free header.

It doesn't help that all the corner goals we've conceded this season are basically carbon copies of each other.

For me, we have a manager with no Plan B. He is also a manager that would rather get 6 points from 6 drawn games than a manager who would go for 9 points from a run of W L W L W L driven by an attacking intent.

Time for a modern thinking manager who has mobile technically gifted players as opposed to all 6ft plus "run all day" athletes. Enjoyment and passion for Everton gets crushed on a regular basis.

100% Ian.

When we will next be in with a chance of a Champions League place with 6 games to go, who knows..?

A chance not taken seriously by the manager, in my opinion.
It's been a substandard competition this season, the Premier League.

How is that not a penalty, when it's for Everton that's when, they say it wasn't intentional it looked mighty like it to me. He shouldn't be putting his arms around Barry in that situation anyway.

As far as Pickford is concerned, he can't get to most crosses because he's blocked off, it's the latest tactic which is spoiling the game.

So every time we lose it's the manager's fault, what about the players who don't play well and put the ball in the net enough times?

Patric (14) Patric he has never come off his line since he has been here, it's been a constant fault of his which has caused a good few goals against us and he has got away with plenty more, I blamed him last week for not coming off his line when Branthwaite was shielding the ball back to him just before he got injured v Liverpool it was his ball all day long and then he's glued to the line when Van Dijk heads home the winner although fans blamed Tarkowski who should have done better but so should Pickford.
As a shot stopper he is excellent but as an all round quality goalkeeper I wouldn't think so.

Patric #14, there was an interesting analysis just recently in The Athletic showing that Pickford is, by a wide margin, the least likely keeper in the Premier League to come off his line on a corner. He has stayed home more often this season than any previously.

The implication was that it's a deliberate tactic based on the idea that he's much better at close-in reflex saves than at getting his fist to high balls over 6'-6" opponents.

Interestingly, we're one of the better clubs at defending corners, based on percentage of goals given up versus number of corners defended. We concede a lot -- more than five a game -- but have the 5th lowest percentage of goals conceded on them.

If you know your keeper is not coming out, it's the defenders' responsibility.

I agree with Dave's post, he very rarely comes for a cross.
If he's not coming for them inside the 6-yard box, Van Dijk around 5 yards out; yesterday's about 3... he's not coming for anything.

The only thing I learnt from this game is Moyes is and always has been a one-dimensional manager. Playing players that should not be anywhere near the first team, ie, Barry, McNiel Gana... Yes, Gana has been an outstanding player for us in the past -- but he is shot.

We have nothing to lose for the rest of the season, so Moyes -- try something different. (Fat chance!) Moyes this is your 13th year at this club and the only thing you have lifted is your paycheck... so piss off and take those above-mentioned players with you!!!!

19 Mike - really interesting. And yes, Pickford is prone to staying on his line, because he knows it's not his strong suit. So tactically I think Moyes and his coaches are encouraging that and want the massive defenders we have to deal with it. Which they mostly do (as the stats show).

21 and 18, John and Dave - defending is a team game. No goalkeeper is perfect. You can have a 6ft 6 monster who will come and claim everything, but then they can't get down to a low shot to save their life.

Everton compensate for Pickford's height by packing the box and having three CBs in the team most of the time, and also by having their CF on the near post (DCL was fantastic at defending such situations, Beto isn't bad, but Barry is not good). Those players have to do their job.

Pickford gets them out of trouble on enough occasions. You take the rough with the smooth.

Wouldn't swap him for any keeper in the Premier League, Patric.

My point was to the headers of the ball. If they know he's not coming, it's their responsibility.

Raymond @ 17, who picked those players in the first place? Who doesn't replace said players who are not performing?

Our very own Defensive Dave, that's who. Given the players available, everyone can pretty much predict exactly who will be in the team every week. The man will never change.

I agree with Patric; if the outfield players do their jobs as they should be done, then the ball doesn't get to Soucek and Bowen doesn't have an uncontested header.

The keeper's preserve is the 6-yard box that lies within the posts, not the bits beyond (unless it's a long cross and it's just a couple of bodies in the vicinity). Sometimes you've got to accept he has to make a percentages call and sometimes you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Pickford has flaws but is still a top keeper overall.

What have I learned?

1) Nothing about Moyes I didn't already know. He likes to run an 11...plus 2 or 3 on standby - not a squad

2)The key to defending your 6yd box is

a) Don't fill it full of defenders* getting in each others way - there's enough of the opposition doing that.

b) Attack the fucking Ball!

Edit; * remove 1 to the edge of the 'D' and TWO to the centre circle...lets see if the opposition has the bottle to send all their players into the 6yd box then.

Did I mention Attack the fucking Ball

Moyes has done a brilliant job stabilising this football club. For that I'm very grateful.

What I would like to see though is some bollocks from the manager. Just have a go, Dave! Fortune favours the brave.

Nothing to lose now. COYB

(1) James Garner's form has worryingly slipped.

(2) I relearned again (and again and again) that Moyes lacks courage and creativity when it comes to selection: Barry.

(3) I relearned again (and again and again) that Barry is shite.

(4) I relearned again (and again and again) that Tarkowski is a twat in pushing the blame onto others: he and Barry allowed an admittedly tall fella from a standing jump to score and then Tarkowski turned on Pickford.

(5) O'Brien is a liability at right back; Patterson should have started

(6) Gana Gueye remains important for us

(7) Keane has been our best centre-half this season

(8) I relearned again (and again and again) that McNeil is nowhere near what he once possibly was and should not start for us again before he gets sold in the summer

(9) I learned to be very worried about Ndiaye. He tends to coast and do some nice things and does not seem to win too many dribbles but he looks our best player and I think that he will not be with us when the next season starts. However, I do wonder about his commitment to us. Also, end product could be a lot better. He has scored twice as many goals as Keane and two of them were penalties.

(10) I relearned again (and again and again) that KDH is our most important player moving forwards at this point in time.

(11) I learned that any wide player is impacted negatively by the two full-backs who played yesterday. One of them - McNeil - is not very good anyway.

(12) George was disappointing and I imagine that he will be home in the Kings Road by the end of May.

(13) I learned that I would love our team to take the game to our opponents: press higher, push higher, drive, run into spaces, create spaces, and so on.

(14) I learned that we will finish in the bottom half of the table.

Derek @27,

I agree about defenders these days rarely wanting to attack the ball.

I look back to someone like Dave Watson or even a bit more recently if you need, Alan Stubbs, David Weir, they would actively go to engage the ball and attack incoming crosses.

These days, there seems to be a desire to just be too statuesque and expect to stay in zone to win from a standing jump. It's another weird trait about modern-day football.

Jim @ 30; you can have 3, 4, 5, 6 defenders all doing what used to be called in a derogatory manner 'Marking Space' or as they call it now Zonal Marking' - I know why it's used, it's to stop players dragging your defenders out of position - I just don't like it.

But unless your players are very very good AND you get it 100% right EVERY time it just takes one Cahill, Soucek or whoever to have the bottle to put their head in the mix and attack the ball...especially if they aim for the space between 2 defenders 'zones'

It's just complicating what is basically a simple task...

See flight of ball

Decide; this is (or is not) my ball

Head ball away!

None of this...is it in my zone or is it just on the edge, shall I go or shall I stay, too much room for 2nd guessing and indecisiveness.

Ball!

Mine!

...and the defender should be on it like a Labrador on a sausage dinner.

Can't understand it myself, big galoots like Keane, O'Brien and Tarkowski seem to have no trouble attacking the ball at the opposition's goal area - why not in our box.

Or am I just 'old fashioned' (probably)

I don't believe for one minute that Pickford has been told to stay on his line. That would be like telling a midfield player not to tackle. It's part of the job description. Take the decision making away from a goalkeeper and you make him redundant.

If Moyes and his coaching staff have told him this, then all of those goals are on them, not the keeper.

We don't miss Calvert-Lewin's goals, he didn't score enough of them, but there are aspects of his game that have left a big hole. Defending set pieces is one of them. We simply haven't replaced his defence of the near post. Beto doesn't have the leap and Barry doesn't have the desire.

For me, Tarkowski simply isn't good enough to mark the opponents' main dangers for these dead-ball situations. That much has been proven time and again. His feet are not quick enough to adjust to anything whipped in with genuine pace. In fairness, Keane's the same.

So we have forwards who can't defend the near post. Two centre-backs who are constantly caught out by the flight of the ball, and a keeper whose arms don't reach higher than the opponent's head.

I'm no fan of Moyes but one thing he is very good at is organising his defence. I'm in a state of disbelief that he has allowed his defence to concede goals to obvious dangers like Van de Ven, Van Dijk, Soucek, Thiaw...

Tarkowski is a lighthouse and needs to go. In the absence of Branthwaite, Jake O'Brien needs to be promoted from his role as a bit-part player defending these corners. He needs to be dominating the centre of our goal, calling the shots.

The guy is a monster; let's use that height and power.

When Calvert-Lewin scored against Liverpool, Klopp slaughtered his players in public for conceding a goal from a corner. Different standards or maybe he was just angry because he hated getting beat, and he already knew he was leaving.

Our standards have improved massively this season because we aren't fighting relegation.

But looking at how we have played since we have had the added pressure of trying to qualify for Europe, I'm just glad we aren't in a relegation battle this season, even if we haven't really been in one since 2023.

Btw...

Days since our younger players last got more than 10 minutes in a game:

Harrison Armstrong - 61
Charly Alcaraz - 84
Tyler Dibling - 84
Nathan Patterson - 89
Merlin Rōhl - 97
Adam Aznou - 105

I like Iroebugnam, Röhl and Aznou (what we've seen of them); the problem is Moyes sticks with his boring favourites. O'Brien should not be playing right-back. Tarkowski is making more and more mistakes...

Do we have a DoF? If so, we need him to recognise we won't win fuck-all with Moyes and risk losing good young players. Why should they stay? #MoyesOut!

I honestly don't get the absence of Rohl from the first XI.

He was excellent in his last game against Villa, part of a good team performance and result; we haven't seen him since.

I know Moyes has his favourites but surely he could have been used for the over-played Gana, who has had a decent season but plays every match when available.

I also thought Patterson did well in that 5-game cameo at right-back, which also included some decent results. I thought he did well considering he has hardly had any minutes this season.

No one will ever convince me that a big strapping centre-back is a better right-back than an actual right-back. Patterson let nobody down but he's another that has been left out and not seen since

Also, my patience has run out with Barry: he just doesn't have the desire, he lacks fight.

Mark @ 34, those stats are shocking.

That is almost £100M of young talent going to waste due to Moyes's reluctance to play young players.

Meanwhile experienced pros like Tarkowski, McNeil and Mykolenko play terribly and get selected.

I've just done a bit of research and our inability to defend corners stretches back to the time Sean Dyche was our manager.

It might go back further, I haven't got the time to check, but when you have got a keeper who prefers to stay rooted to his line, then I think you are always going to have problems defending set-pieces.

If it genuinely is a tactic keeping Pickford on his line, how embarrassing, because surely when it comes to goalkeeping, then it's the saves he doesn't have to make that are the most important.

Agree Steve - 37.

This is 2026, I'm sick and tired of the stale and tired voices claiming that "Hey, he played these 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 young fellas in his first overlong stint..."

Moyes, as a rule of thumb over his time with us, prefers his tried and trusted lieutenants.

Tried and trusted and he knows that they are going to get us so far = Stability.

Or a couple of points or places below, Tony A.

When Moyes left, Martinez managed Everton for three seasons but then along came Moshiri the clown, who was getting advised by the conman, who had a huge ego, relishing friends in the media, proclaiming him to be the world's greatest Evertonian. Since then, only Sean Dyche has managed two full seasons for Everton.

I understand the need for stability but I also believe that Everton will only become relevant again once everyone starts realising how big we could become once again. This is something that I don't think will ever happen under David Moyes.

He is the master of creating an illusion that he is doing a much better job than what he is being given credit for. A man that can take us so far, but not far enough... and a man who has always lacked real belief when it matters the most.

I want more, and don't want to continue watching such rigid football, which actually wouldn't be so bad if every single player knew his job completely, but that definitely isn't the case right now.

Tony @42,

I think that's fair, but there is also a need for solid foundations. I don't see there being an outstanding manager, bar Iraola, available this summer. I just don't tend to think there are many top managers at the moment in general.

Nobody would have said Kompany was a top manager when he left Burnley, but he went into an outstanding team that has the wealth to dominate their league, and he has added his flourish on top.

If Everton turned to, say Glasner, in the summer. A good coach, but I don't think a better manager than Moyes, and one with similar flaws -- his teams don't like to have the ball.

He also wants to play a system Everton would need to recruit specifically for. That's not me saying I'm against Glasner, just that that's the calibre of manager out there at the moment.

Interestingly, all of Brighton, Bournemouth and Brentford need fairly significant points totals from their last 4 games to match what they did last season, whereas all of those teams could actually finish higher than they did last season, on lower points.

Interestingly, all of Brighton, Bournemouth and Brentford need fairly significant points totals from their last 4 games to match what they did last season, whereas all of those teams could actually finish higher than they did last season, on lower points.

I posted yesterday, Patric. It has definitely been a substandard Premier League this season.

Paul #39,

It was more like 25.

I can see both sides of the argument. I think part of the rationale people use is how old or young they are.

It's been over 30 years since we last lifted a trophy. I was lucky enough to be there. I was also fortunate enough to see us win the league and European Cup-Winners' Cup in the '80s. That also means there's one, or two generations of fans that have seen us win nothing, and usually struggle.

So I can see why Moyes offers stability. And set against much of the dross of the last 2 decades, I can see why that appeals.

But I also believe Moyes doesn't have it in him to be a winner, certainly not a serial winner.

I know that, since the advent of the Premier League, the game has shifted towards favouring the bigger and well-resourced teams. But they're not infallible -- almost all have had periods of poor results, bad management etc. Their wealth and revenue generated offer some immunity.

As John at #44 notes - and no doubt others have picked up on - this season has seemed to be substandard, whilst a couple of the self-appointed ESL six have also struggled this season.

So whilst Everton has exceeded most of our expectations this season, it's just as likely we will fail to make Europe as make it -- and barring a massive overhaul in the squad, we'd probably embarrass ourselves.

So the conundrum seems clear. Stick or twist with the manager. As Patric and others note, there's not a lot out there that we could realistically attract -- I still think getting Ancelotti was indeed a "Hollywood" manager -- albeit one we couldn't really afford at the time.

My view:- Moyes has another year. Give it to him on the assumption we will be slightly better off at the end of it. After that, he goes with best wishes. No job "upstairs" etc. I never forgot that he refused to let Howard Kendall near Finch Farm. It was Martinez who invited him for a visit.

It's arguable that Sir Alex Ferguson has "haunted" the corridors of Old Trafford since he retired, (again). I don't think he's still a non-exec director, but Moyes will have completed over 15 years at Goodison by the time his contract has expired, making him the longest serving post-war manager.

Hopefully our US Overlords have as little truck in sentimentality as they do for the average fan (with the recent price rises). If we're going to go full commercial to compete, then leave the sentiment and history at the door. It doesn't matter these days.

Keeping Moyes for another year makes sense with regards stability but I'd personally like to see Glasner, Patric.

I don't even know that much about him and only learned on ToffeeWeb last week that he had also won the Europa League with a German team.

I just think he comes across as being a lot more ambitious for success than David Moyes has ever been. Let's face it, anyone who has got a memory knows that most of the things that people give Moyes credit for have nothing to do with us ever really competing for honours.

Glasner seemed angry earlier in the season, losing out on the Europa League because of dual ownership. Losing players of the calibre of Elise, Eze and now Guelle, would take its toll on any team. If he delivers success in the third rate European cup after losing so much talent, then this is something I'd give him credit for.

I also think that one of the best team's I have seen at Bramley-Moore Dock this season was Palace, who should have been out of sight before an injury to Michael Keane suddenly got Everton playing on the front foot against a team that was tiring after playing in Europe a few days before.

Moyes is close to 13 seasons now and, although I listen to people who like him, I don't agree with them when they say he knows Everton.

He only really knows Everton under Kenwright — Plucky little Everton, punching above their weight — not the Everton, that always used to at least try and compete and sometimes even win things.

I favour the Brighton manager, Tony, he strikes me as ambitious, young and very able, a typical German.

That is if he would fancy the Everton job; we have much more potential to expand than Brighton.

He's another that I don't know that much about, Raymond, but the few times I have watched Brighton this season, I haven't really been impressed.

They were okay on the opening day of the season and, if Pickford hadn't have saved their penalty, I'm not sure we would have hung on. But I wasn't impressed with them in the return fixture and I don't recall watching them play much more than these two games.

They seem to be playing well now though and have got themselves into 6th place, I think, but I don't expect their manager to be leaving Brighton anytime soon.

I'm a bit disillusioned with our club though. I've heard a man from the past has been tasked with sorting out the academy and I was reading that one of the sticking points for David Moyes at West Ham was that they didn't want to employ his son?

Nepotism, I fucking despise nepotism, and this is something that I think had been rife at Everton for years… So when I hear about Neil Dewsnip being re-employed by Everton and David's son getting a scouting job, then it fills me with absolute dread.

"Glasner, a good coach... with similar flaws -- his teams don't like to have the ball."

Eh? Palace? I don't follow, Patric? Glasner's Palace play completely different football to David Moyes' Everton.

I prefer Iraola but Glasner is a close second.

The Palace stats are no better than Everton.

Less points
Less goals
Less possession
Less attacks

Glasner has fallen out at the last 3 clubs, which to me is a red flag. His personality seems as dour as Moyes. I can’t knock the FA Cup, the Charity Shield or the European performances, but I struggle to see him bring our club together any better than the suggestions of Potter or Franks.

He cant be credited with bringing a load of talent in, as much of it was there on arrival.

You need a manager to feed the DNA of the club, and be clear why the appointment wont fail. Glasner isn't Everton. He wouldn't last a season.

Two trophies plus 4 wins out of 6 games v Liverpool, I believe, Ian.

If he moved to our club, you wouldn't get the same result. The Liverpool approach vs Palace is very different to a derby for a start.

How many times have you seen them drop points to relegated clubs? And then how many times have you seen them rollover for a derby?

If he moved to our club, you wouldn't get the same result.

How do you know?

A lifetime of experience, that they might lie down for a Burnley, Luton, or Leicester -- but they don't for a derby.

No, not that.

How do you know Glasner wouldn't get the same results as he has got for Palace?

It's impossible to know, Ian.

One thing you can almost guarantee. He would not end up with 4 wins out of 41 games against any club, like Moyes's record against Liverpool.

Moyes's overall aggregate points total per game is the lowest of any club he has led a team against. I said earlier, before the derby, Moyes has an inferiority complex with Liverpool.

Here's the perspective of beating Liverpool. If Moyes has an inferiority complex, how about these?

Moyes: 6 wins out of 46
Kendall: 8 from 32
Howe: 2 from 24
Royle: 3 from 17
Emery: 1 from 14
Mancini: 2 from 11

Glasner... 4 from 6.

Not too shoddy.

Interesting, Ian. It looks like he fell out with the owners of Palace earlier in the year, which is understandable, but do you know why he has fallen out with his previous three clubs?

Potter definitely wouldn't have suited Everton but, if I'm being honest, I genuinely don't think that David Moyes suits Everton that much either.

He definitely doesn't suit the Everton I long to see anyway, but maybe I am delusional when it comes to Everton because I expect a lot more.

I've heard it's all about money but, when a lot of teams spend money, it sometimes doesn't stop them going backwards -- just like when a club gets the right coach, it can take them forwards.

Moyes has taken us forward but, when I watch us playing, I genuinely don't really see it myself.

Looking at those figures, then it looks like Moyes hasn't won at Anfield in 23 attempts. Absolutely shocking that.

Maybe most of them had inferiority complexes Ian like Moyes Ian?

Tony

Id read around him before, and this article wraps it up Link

To me, I just don't see him as someone that will unite the dressing room, the fans and the board room. Ive seldom see a club move firward without all three pulling in the same way.

His football style is no better than we have, and I think he was very lucky to inherit the squad he did.

Wharton, Munoz, Guehi, Mateta, Eze, Mitchell, Olise, Anderson gave him a good base to work with. Certainly better than whst Moyes took on.

Time will tell if he is the real deal with the next club. I have my doubts. I see him as a pragmatic manager that fans would have little affection over, and would soon burn his bridges with owners and players.

Eric Myles 45: It was more like 25.

List 'em Eric mate!

They will need to be teenagers.

I have before Paul, I hope John Collins still has the list 'cos I can't find it now. There were 19 teenagers and the rest youth players.

Eric (64): Moyes speaking in 2024: '18-years-old was the young (age) probably a few years ago. But certainly I think it’s moved more towards 21 now for players in the Premier League'.

When Moyes picked Dibling for his first game, it was the first time in 185 games - 185!!!! - that he had picked a teenager to start. He does not like picking teenagers. And what has since happened since Armstrong and Dibling got their starts?

I do not think that Moyes blooded as many as 19 teenagers in his first long stint with us ('youth players' are teenagers aren't they). But let's say it was 19: that would be 19 from 14-3-2002/13-5-2013, more like a trickle than a stream. And I am far from sure that he did pick 19 teenagers to start matches.

Rooney, Barkley, Rodwell, Vaughan. Anichebe. Baxter. There must be more teenagers who got starts with Moyes in his first term. But 19? Genuinely struggling here.

Anyway, this cheery chirpy Hammer had Moyes well sussed: Chappietime: ‘This is nothing new. Moyes relies on proven veterans 99% of the time, as it’s not in his personal interest to take risks. This is why we are always recruiting proven players’.

This debate shines a light, I think. One fella trying to defend Moyes on ‘teenage’ players but keeps mentioning non-teenagers; the other fella with a bit more knowledge of the matter gets the better of it.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1450484816706304

Paul, youth players are those that are eligible to play for the youth teams i.e U21s, (although elegibility is 22, maybe 23?) or indeed came from the youth teams into the first team.

Quote from our former head scout under Moyes.

“David always used to say to me that as well as looking for first-team players, look out for the best young players,”

"David always wanted to bring in the best young kids, as long as they fit into our budget."

Difference Eric. My quote is from Moyes's own mouth and 185 games!

Quotes from a former head scout are fine but how did that all work out?

Thanks for the correction on 'youth players'.

Still having a lot of trouble finding 19 teenagers who Moyes started. I could do with some help please.

Maybe when John Collins wakes up he'll have the list I posted before Paul, finding old content on this site is impossible, it coukd do with a search function.

Agree Eric. I wish my memory was not cobwebs.

Paul (65) A lot of actual fact in that post, a lot of young players who Moyes introduced to the first team hardly ever played many games, there was one European cup game when the result had no consequence and he played about 4 or 5 youngsters who never got many or any more games for the Blues.

Of the six you mention, Rooney there was no option but to play him yet Moyes could have used him more, Barclay had a great potential but Moyes sent him out on loan twice, after a couple of mistakes while senior players carried on making theirs, Rodwell was easy to select because of his obvious talent, Baxter played very young but not a great deal and he left Everton after Moyes offered him a new contract with reduced wages of 50% — he should have been as bold offering some of the mediocre players the same deals.

There is an old saying— “No one wants you when you are old” I think Moyes goes against the grain with that adage—- Mind you he can “ Do one “ for me at 63 and take his bus pass with him.

So Moyes feeds the Everton DNA does he? That's us set for mid-table mediocrity for the foreseeable future then.

Not to mention all the progress we will see. Prior to being left with an ageing squad of experienced triers.

Stones, Soucek, McGinn and even Grealish, which other over 30s player will we be linked with?
These, in my opinion obviously, are 'Typical Moyes' players.
Short term gain - longterm drain.

After much debate, has anybody changed their mind about Moyes?

I was wavering, but rightly or wrongly, I saw a perceived lack of true intent to go out and win the last few games...yes I know there were extenuating circumstances - trouble is, especially with (Everton and) Moyes - there always are.

He can't (won't?) be here for ever, I just hope he doesn't leave the next guy with a shipload of over age deadwood.