VIEW FROM THE BLUE
Thanks, But No Thanks
By Lyndon Lloyd : 14/11/2007 : 
Comments (147) :
Comments (147) : The more real the prospect of Kirkby becomes, the more sick I feel about it. The more detail that emerges about "Destination Kirkby", the more artist's impressions and slick promotional videos that are released, and the more I hear the likes of Alan Stubbs try and sell this version of the future to me, the less it all feels like the Everton Football Club I know and the more I want to turn the other way and pretend this nightmare isn't happening.
This plastic vision of symmetrical, prefab-looking stands and bright blue facades emblazoned with so many Everton crests that you'd think subtelty had gone out of style, of "New Everton", of a "new chapter" and of "new" Everton fans suddenly springing up out of a four-million strong catchment area (a predominantly rugby-following catchment area shared by Bolton, Wigan, Liverpool and Blackburn, Mr Wyness)... well, that's not my Everton.
My Everton is the Everton portrayed at the beginning of this promotional video: the packed familiarity of Goodison Road, the walk down narrow streets steeped in more history than the majority of football clubs can even dream, the scenes of jubilation from within Goodison Park, one of the last remaining great old stadia in England.
The promo is a tool no doubt designed to sell you on "New Everton" ? with the vote won among the Everton fans the daylight photos of Tesco right next door to the stadium are clearly designed to win over the Kirkby residents (you'll remember the original overheard plans had the two separated by a car park and a dividing wall/hedge) ? but as the scenes morph from the Goodison we know and love to Mr Stubbs superimposed against computer-generated stands in a stadium in which he'll never actually play, it merely underscores for this Evertonian just how much that manufactured vision of our future belongs to someone else and offers painful reminders of what we'd be leaving behind if this ever comes to fruition.
We all went through the trauma of the stadium debate this summer and the arguments for and against were beaten to death. In the near vacuum of discussion on the topic and opportunity for reflection since, my mind has not changed one bit. There is nothing about the increasing inevitability of the move to Kirkby and the opportunity to resign oneself to it that has made it any more attractive or even more palatable.
Is this your Everton?
What's our name? Coventry City? A picture they wouldn't have dared to use during the ballot.
I feel as strongly and intransigently as I did when news first came of the ballot and the conduct of the club hierarchy during the voting period only served to deepen my revulsion for the whole idea. Keith Wyness's desperate attempts to undermine any alternative to his "meal ticket" drove home to me more than anything that this wasn't the best move for Everton FC ? Bill Kenwright's silence on the issue indicated that he knows it ? it's just the best that this CEO and this Board can deliver.
For me, it was never solely about arbitrary municipal boundaries or Kirkby itself. Even if I could contemplate tearing the club away from its roots in Everton and Walton wards and moving it 6 miles down the road, I strongly believe that at a time when Liverpool is undergoing unprecedented regeneration on a scale probably unmatched anywhere else in Europe moving further away and abandoning the city to Liverpool would be a grave error of judgement.
And if it could be clearly demonstrated to me that the club has no choice but to move outside the city, I would probably accept that reality if it didn't mean plonking a cheap-looking structure in the middle of a retail development on the back end of Tesco's car park and, at a stroke, changing the entire character of the match-going experience to one of park-and-rides, motorway traffic jams, packed trains and ambles past trollies and weekend shoppers as you approach what is supposed to be your footballing Mecca.
I've heard all the accusations of an unmotivated Liverpool City Council, that we have no choice but to move from Goodison Park, and that we can't afford to build a new ground without Tesco's help and while they all may have some validity, I still can't help feeling that this whole Kirkby venture is wrong on so many levels. The need to keep selling it to us is proof enough.
The aforementioned clip starts with Stubbs saying, "we all know Everton means to us." The thing is, I don't think we do. Because I don't want synthetic "New Everton" and some outsider's version of my club's future. I fell in love with the old Everton, the vintage version that built its reputation and has carved out a rich history in North Liverpool, and that continues to represent the City of Liverpool better in Europe than the club that actually bears its name. The one renowned for innovation and a list if "firsts" ? many of them related to the club's stadium ? so impressive they made a plaque for it.
Funny how just when this club looks like getting back to something more akin to its traditions on the pitch we should be thinking about transitioning to something that is, to these eyes, so utterly out of character with our history.
Oh, it'll be a "new chapter" alright, Alan, but who says it'll be a better one?
Reader Comments
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I don?t think the millions of Everton supporters in the future will care about what you personally feel and think for the club dude. Wake up pleassee!! There is only one way improve: by looking forward!!!
We all understand where you are coming from Lyndon even if we don’t agree with you 100%. I am nearly 30 and have supported Everton as long as I can remember and although I’m not from Liverpool / Merseyside I must have been to Goodison 70 or 80 times as well as a few away games.
The problem is, as you say we seem to be moving in the right direction on the pitch, its off the pitch we have trouble. Every Tom, Dick and Harry club have big money investors sniffing round and most of them are very average teams (there are quite a few in the EPL at the mo) but we never seem to get linked with any of the money men.
I have seen it written that we would be a bad choice for investment as a lot of money would need to be spent (new stadium etc) before anyone could expect to start making a half decent return on their investment and with us doing quite well at the moment Blue Bill and the rest aren’t going to let their shares go cheaply.
I feel that the next 3 or 4 years will be make or break time for most of the Premiership, the gap between the top 3 and the rest of us is growing every year and if great clubs like ours can’t find a way to keep money flowing in (without becoming a selling club) then we just won’t have the financial clout to keep in touch with the big boys.
I’m not a big fan of moving to Kirkby, I’m just saying maybe its a necessary evil.
The problem is, as you say we seem to be moving in the right direction on the pitch, its off the pitch we have trouble. Every Tom, Dick and Harry club have big money investors sniffing round and most of them are very average teams (there are quite a few in the EPL at the mo) but we never seem to get linked with any of the money men.
I have seen it written that we would be a bad choice for investment as a lot of money would need to be spent (new stadium etc) before anyone could expect to start making a half decent return on their investment and with us doing quite well at the moment Blue Bill and the rest aren’t going to let their shares go cheaply.
I feel that the next 3 or 4 years will be make or break time for most of the Premiership, the gap between the top 3 and the rest of us is growing every year and if great clubs like ours can’t find a way to keep money flowing in (without becoming a selling club) then we just won’t have the financial clout to keep in touch with the big boys.
I’m not a big fan of moving to Kirkby, I’m just saying maybe its a necessary evil.
Lyndon im pretty sure your not the only person who’s feeling like this at the moment, what i’ve read so far from peoples views are all the same, that the kirkby stadium is a complete and utter farce, the more visuals you see the more your heart sinks.
Martin, I’m sorry to say that it’s you who needs to wake up. This is a bad deal for Everton. Tescos are NOT paying for a new ground, and the amount of money we can put into this will make it as good as Pride Park if we’re lucky. In short, it’ll just leave us even further behind than we are already. Smell the coffee.
Personally, these latest media releases have had a purely negative effect on me. Beforehand I wasn’t as against it as a lot of people, but I wasn’t all for it either. Every press release it just seems to get worse and worse, particularly just how retail park-y it really could be. I’m sure we’re all kinda hoping that if it does happen, it won’t be that bad; that they’ll make a good job of it. Yet everything about it just looks and sounds rubbish.
Lyndon & Michael, I know you do not like the Kirkby project and neither do I. This board is sold on the idea, they came out with a ballot and a majority of the valid votes were for Kirkby. So really our opinions do not count, Everton got the mandate and this project will go ahead.
Lyndon i agree completely, and so to will every pure of heart evertonian with an ounce of sense and pride. I want the best for this club, not a two for one offer. If youve ever had the pleasure of shopping with someone who shops in tescos you will find that it seems like your gettin many great deals on two for one but you always end up spending or losing more. This proposed move will go the same way. We will pay less but lose much more of real worth to the fans and the club, ’our heritage and our city’. That is priceless, not for sale. We our selling our sole to the devil here? Why put gigantic signs saying peoples club on the side of a new stadium in kirby that has given up that title by giving up on its people. Its all wrong, so so wrong. I feel like keith (wyn)ass is akin to neville chamberlain stepping off the plane after munich in 1938 promising peace in our time. We all know what happened to that promise. And but for a bit of backbone, moral fortitide, and a conviction in knowing right from wrong, Britain would have made a stand. Make a stand now, lets be prepared to take the hard option, lets not settle for a stadium on the cheap, please, for a future generation if not for ourselves. For anyone who has been to the riverside, or the reebok or the JJB will know we cant let this happen. A stadium in kirby has no future, no viability beyond 5 to 10 years, its a temporary, desperate solution. If we move we are not the club i constantly preech that we are, the peoples club. We evertonians constantly moan about gaining recognition on MOTD or Sky as a big club, we constantly portend to be bigger than your middle table clubs, well lets prove that, a big club doesnt leave its home area. Arsenal - 5 min walk from old ground. Chelsea - arent even a big club. the shit - still in old trafford. the shite - moving to stanley park. villa - still in villa park. newcastle - still in st james park. only small clubs move so far from their heritage, why, because there so small it doesnt really matter to them!
lyndon
thanks for a heart felt piece of mature writing that doesnt sink to name calling.
I think a move away from goodison will destroy the club.
I will still support the club but it will be the end of the " FRIENDLY DERBY " as we might as well be any other club in twenty or thirty years time we will be lost in the wilderness with no identity.
thanks but no thanks
thanks for a heart felt piece of mature writing that doesnt sink to name calling.
I think a move away from goodison will destroy the club.
I will still support the club but it will be the end of the " FRIENDLY DERBY " as we might as well be any other club in twenty or thirty years time we will be lost in the wilderness with no identity.
thanks but no thanks
Martin - think the smelling salts need to passed around mate. Why are you using the word dude and this is about what the fans feel.
The way forward is not always what is new but what is correct and proper. Tell that to slough or croyden who in the 60’s ended up with a town full of new futuristic building that ended up a laughing stock and an eyesore to the next generation. Lets not make the same mistake.
The future is about the right choices, not about having no choice at all, which is what we have been left with by the short sighted board. Peope voted for kirkby or decided not to vote because there was no other choice.
The way forward is not always what is new but what is correct and proper. Tell that to slough or croyden who in the 60’s ended up with a town full of new futuristic building that ended up a laughing stock and an eyesore to the next generation. Lets not make the same mistake.
The future is about the right choices, not about having no choice at all, which is what we have been left with by the short sighted board. Peope voted for kirkby or decided not to vote because there was no other choice.
Lyndon,
You don’t want to go to Kirkby. That’s fine. Therefore,even if Tesco were helping us to build a palace of marble upon which the sun forever shone and that glinted majestically all blue and bronze on frosty winter mornings...... you would still find a reason not to like it. If you would really like to despair at a view, try standing by the Dixie Statue and looking down Goodison Road at the dilapidation surrounding Goodison nowadays. Now there really is a sight for sore eyes!
You don’t want to go to Kirkby. That’s fine. Therefore,even if Tesco were helping us to build a palace of marble upon which the sun forever shone and that glinted majestically all blue and bronze on frosty winter mornings...... you would still find a reason not to like it. If you would really like to despair at a view, try standing by the Dixie Statue and looking down Goodison Road at the dilapidation surrounding Goodison nowadays. Now there really is a sight for sore eyes!
An articulate submission, which will no doubt find favour with many. I applaud Evertonians who have the depth of feeling to continue to make their views clear on the subject, when as you say the move now looks inevitable.
For the sake of balance however, I would like to mention the conduct of KEIOC during the campaign. You speak of the conduct of the club hierarchy during the voting period, which you suggest "only served to deepen my revulsion for the whole idea" - an emotion I and many others felt upon learning of the hooligan footage shown by KEIOC and KRAG, in an attempt to turn local residents against the idea of a move.
Would you not agree that this conduct shames the club and its support far more than the actions of the board or the employees of the club?
For the sake of balance however, I would like to mention the conduct of KEIOC during the campaign. You speak of the conduct of the club hierarchy during the voting period, which you suggest "only served to deepen my revulsion for the whole idea" - an emotion I and many others felt upon learning of the hooligan footage shown by KEIOC and KRAG, in an attempt to turn local residents against the idea of a move.
Would you not agree that this conduct shames the club and its support far more than the actions of the board or the employees of the club?
I don?t know the city of liverpool at all, which means I don?t know how much better the Bestways site is. ( I would be grateful to know.) What worries me is that as Bestways is obviously a large retail chain as well, how much better overall will their proposed stadium/shopping centre be?
I have to say that the picture above is absolutely frightening. Not only is the stadium to be outside the city, it?s not even going to look like a proper stand alone stadium. Our ground will be a shopping centre/ retail park first, a football ground second.
Like alot of people, I?ve had mixed feelings about the move. Having read Lyndon?s article, and seen the picture, which is Board approved spin by the way, I am moving more towards the no camp.
I have to say that the picture above is absolutely frightening. Not only is the stadium to be outside the city, it?s not even going to look like a proper stand alone stadium. Our ground will be a shopping centre/ retail park first, a football ground second.
Like alot of people, I?ve had mixed feelings about the move. Having read Lyndon?s article, and seen the picture, which is Board approved spin by the way, I am moving more towards the no camp.
Lydon, there was a ballot, the Yes vote won. We are moving, we have to to safeguard the future of the club. I’ll miss the old lasy but we have to move forward, not back.
I know its hard, but opening up old wounds isnt a good idea.
I know its hard, but opening up old wounds isnt a good idea.
Lyndon, I agree with every single solitary syllable. Goodison has changed immeasurably and many times since I first walked in, open-mouthed in wonder, for my first match in 1963. But it has always remained Goodison despite the changes. This plan takes Everton out of Liverpool and Liverpool out of Everton. We are downsizing ourselves to become a suburban football club in a cookie cutter stadium; a club with no past, no character, no identity. The fact that Stubbsy’ s career will be long over before the first sod is turned is especially ironic, given that he has become the Face of the Future. Victor Anichebe or James Vaughan would have been a more inspiring choice. But then, all of this is a con job. By the time it is built, Wyness will probably be CEO of the Cleveland Indians or someplace and will barely remember how to find Kirkby on a map. We’ll be stuck with his shoddy vision for a MacFootball Club. I will support the team that plays there, but please, don’t imagine it’s Everton.
Kieran Fitzgerald,
Where do the No-camp live now and what is the point of them? Haven?t you heard? The Yes-camp won the vote!
Join the Scouts, you?ll have a better sense of purpose.
Where do the No-camp live now and what is the point of them? Haven?t you heard? The Yes-camp won the vote!
Join the Scouts, you?ll have a better sense of purpose.
Dave Roberts: You don?t want to go to Kirkby. That?s fine. Therefore,even if Tesco were helping us to build a palace of marble upon which the sun forever shone and that glinted majestically all blue and bronze on frosty winter mornings... you would still find a reason not to like it.
The reason not to like it would be that it is outside f Liverpool but, as I said in the article above, I could accept it ? and really like it if it was a truly magnificent stadium in the right surroundings ? if it wasn?t going to be right next door to a super market. Remember, I was a vociferous supporter of PJ's Hamperdome and that was going to be outside the city as well.
It?s not just one problem that is my and others? issue with the Kirkby Project, it?s a number of them, chief among them the look, feel and environs of the place we will be asked to call "home". IMO, it?s a step down from Goodison and I?d take those delapidated buildings on Goodison Road over Tesco car park every day of the week!
Kieran: I don?t know the city of liverpool at all, which means I don?t know how much better the Bestways site is. ( I would be grateful to know.) What worries me is that as Bestways is obviously a large retail chain as well, how much better overall will their proposed stadium/shopping centre be?
Kierran, I suspect that even though Everton officials have met with Bestway at least once and LCC at least twice since the ballot result was announced the Bestway proposal will be moot until or unless the Kirkby plan collapses.
But, to answer your question, their plan didn't involve a supermarket or retail development on the site or right next to the proposed stadium. They were getting land to the east in exchange for the Loop site on which to develop commercial and leisure properties as their "enabling project." Under their plan, the stadium would be on its own, if only because of the nature and dimensions of the Loop itself.
Fantastic article Lyndon - considering sending it too the club? I would like to ask for your permission to send it to my cousin who is the Assistant Club Secretary at Everton, Anthony Bloch, to see what he makes of it.
This whole thing actually makes me feel sick. I cannot believe what Wyness is going to do to our club - we will be nothing, we will disappear, without our history we have no future. The images released today are horrifying. Lyndon, you are a skilled writer, use it and send it to anyone and everyone you know at the club, around the club, anything, we must get our voices heard. Send it to the KEIOC guys to put on the website, send it to the echo, send it to the council, WE MUST BE HEARD, KIRKBY CANNOT HAPPEN IT WILL DESTROY OUR BELOVED CLUB.
This whole thing actually makes me feel sick. I cannot believe what Wyness is going to do to our club - we will be nothing, we will disappear, without our history we have no future. The images released today are horrifying. Lyndon, you are a skilled writer, use it and send it to anyone and everyone you know at the club, around the club, anything, we must get our voices heard. Send it to the KEIOC guys to put on the website, send it to the echo, send it to the council, WE MUST BE HEARD, KIRKBY CANNOT HAPPEN IT WILL DESTROY OUR BELOVED CLUB.
Get a grip everyone. All new football stadia now should be built on the outskirts or just outside of a city. I?m a massive evertonian, season ticket holder for many years but you know what I live in Anfield and every time Everton or Liverpool are at home we are persecuted by football fans littering our area, parking all over the pavements, spitting on your property - this is kopites and evertonias. They should both be outside of Liverpool - take it from someone on the wrong end of both clubs. Everton to Kirkby - what?s the big deal, i for one for selfish reasons can?t wait !
Exactly my point Lyndon! For you, as I recall, the argument was always the leaving of Liverpool and the resulting extinction of our fanbase and handing the city over to our neighbours. WAS IT NOT? But now the leaving of Liverpool would be OK if you liked the stadium, but you don’t!
As I say, you will always find a reason not to like it.
As I say, you will always find a reason not to like it.
I just don?t like it...doesn?t evoke any emotion for me.
I am however, not the future of the Club.
Just feel that if a move if necessary, and it is, then do something cool , not this sterile bollocks.
I am however, not the future of the Club.
Just feel that if a move if necessary, and it is, then do something cool , not this sterile bollocks.
Louis, it won?t make the blindest bit of difference unless Evertonians rise up in their thousands and tell the club in no uncertain terms that they don?t want this. They had that chance with the ballot but through a combination of fear of being left behind, club spin, or just a desire to leave Goodison for fresh fields, the majority of votes received were in favour of Kirkby.
They monitor ToffeeWeb at EFC anyway. They know how many of us feel but Kirkby is "deliverable" and achievable for Mr Wyness so it?s a no-brainer for him. We?re going unless it falls on its arse of Evertonians suddenly have a vocal change of heart. I understand that but it doesn?t mean I have to like it or accept it.
They monitor ToffeeWeb at EFC anyway. They know how many of us feel but Kirkby is "deliverable" and achievable for Mr Wyness so it?s a no-brainer for him. We?re going unless it falls on its arse of Evertonians suddenly have a vocal change of heart. I understand that but it doesn?t mean I have to like it or accept it.
Dave Roberts: For you, as I recall, the argument was always the leaving of Liverpool and the resulting extinction of our fanbase and handing the city over to our neighbours. WAS IT NOT?
It was always one of the biggest arguments, Dave, but if you read back through my articles and responses on the subject, it was always about all the negatives taken as a whole: outside Liverpool; abandoning the city; sub-standard stadium (although I initially liked the design, it just looks worse and worse the more I see of it); the fact that the figures kept changing and never added up; the way it was being railroaded through; the fact that there was NO PLAN B and when two were presented they were shot to pieces by club-employed "experts"; the crap about 4m catchment area; only 1,000 parking spaces; mixed messaging about rail stations; the one-sided brochure the fact that we were tagging along on Tesco's coat-tails... Dave it was a pretty long list, should I go on?
The whole thing screams the JJB. As in an Edvard Munch, hands-clasped-to-face scream way, not an ecstatic last-minute Goodison-rousing Carsley-stunner way. Just gutted.
Lyndon, I dont know how old you are? but the future of Everton, I’m sorry to say, is not just about the fans who have memories of The old lady. Young Evertonians will see the new Stadium in a much more brighter light than you see it ! I actually like the new stadia designs. We can build a new history in this ground and after a few years it will feel like home ! Come on ! chin up ! Give us a smile !
Kieran,
What Lyndon omitted to say in his response to you was that Bestway are NOT a large retail chain. They are quite a small company in fact and there has always been doubt as to how they could assist Everton as Tesco are doing.
As for the Loop site itself, it was previously rejected by Liverpool FC as being too small for a stadium for 60,000 and a 55,000 seater would suffer likewise. There are considerable infrastructure problems with the site involving transport and safety issues and ANY stadium design of the size envisaged to be incorporated there would need to overhang the surrounding roads on stilts. Even KEIOC admit this now. While this would not be impossible, it would be incredibly expensive especially as access bridges for pedestrians traveling to the ground (and we would all be pedestrians as there is no room for parking) would also need to be constructed. The Loop is a non-starter...a distraction.
What Lyndon omitted to say in his response to you was that Bestway are NOT a large retail chain. They are quite a small company in fact and there has always been doubt as to how they could assist Everton as Tesco are doing.
As for the Loop site itself, it was previously rejected by Liverpool FC as being too small for a stadium for 60,000 and a 55,000 seater would suffer likewise. There are considerable infrastructure problems with the site involving transport and safety issues and ANY stadium design of the size envisaged to be incorporated there would need to overhang the surrounding roads on stilts. Even KEIOC admit this now. While this would not be impossible, it would be incredibly expensive especially as access bridges for pedestrians traveling to the ground (and we would all be pedestrians as there is no room for parking) would also need to be constructed. The Loop is a non-starter...a distraction.
Lyndon,
Yes please do carry on. Especially the bit about you liking the stadium once! Keep digging!
Yes please do carry on. Especially the bit about you liking the stadium once! Keep digging!
John Dring, I?m 33 and I find it sad that the younger fans won?t inherit the kind of stadium that I and those older than me have been able to experience.
When I drove past Pride Park a few years ago, I shook my head and was thankful that we had our "Old Lady" and were planning to move to another world-class arena in the form of the Kings Dock.
Now? It?s a Tesco car park. The younger fans decades from now might not really know what they?re missing but those fans in their 20s, 30s and 40s now will. If you?re OK with the new designs and the location, then who I am to tell you you?re wrong? This article is a forum to express my personal opinion and, to be honest, as a fan of a "Grand Old Team" it breaks my heart that it?s come to this...
Think of Nuremberg...did anyone have any problems getting from the centre to the ground!
It is not a ground we support, but the team & club!
Do we want to go £500 million in debt just to fund a new stadium that looks like a tin of corned beef!
It is not a ground we support, but the team & club!
Do we want to go £500 million in debt just to fund a new stadium that looks like a tin of corned beef!
Great article, Lyndon. I was a No voter, the ballot paper never hit the floor when posted thro? my door and I registered my No vote . Your article and those pictures just made my heart sink. I was at the Madjeski stadium a few months ago, which is a polystyrene ground behind Allied Carpets. It took 3/4 of an hour to get to the motorway from the ground of which 35 minutes were stuck in a field which cost us a tenner to park the car . "" project Everton "" looks just like that but with a bigger set of shops. If Bill Kenwright wants us to believe he?s a true Blue, one of us who are chosen, then he has to put an end to this monstrosity NOW. Or his big emotive item on MOTD will show him to be what many Evertonians are convinced he is anyway .... A PHONEY!
We won?t go to Kirkby
Where?er the Toffeemen have played,
We?ve followed in their trail ?
Exulted when they?ve triumphed,
And wept tears when they?ve failed.
We?ve shadowed them the length and breadth
Of this green, pleasant Land.
But we won?t go to Kirkby,
We say ?No? to a man.
We want to stay at Goodison,
Our Mersey hearth and home.
For how could we leave Goodison ?
This great Club?s heart and soul?
Tradition, Legend, History,
Should count a little more
Than schemes cooked up by Tesco,
Or some such Chain of Stores.
Chairmen, Players and Managers,
They come and then they go.
While we the loyal fans remain,
Who love the Blueshirts so.
It?s we the fans who should decide
Where Everton will play.
We fans should have the casting vote,
And this is what we say:
We?ve been to Prague and Bucharest,
We?ve been to Rotterdam.
But we won?t go to Kirkby?
So shelve this harebrained plan!
21/3/07
Where?er the Toffeemen have played,
We?ve followed in their trail ?
Exulted when they?ve triumphed,
And wept tears when they?ve failed.
We?ve shadowed them the length and breadth
Of this green, pleasant Land.
But we won?t go to Kirkby,
We say ?No? to a man.
We want to stay at Goodison,
Our Mersey hearth and home.
For how could we leave Goodison ?
This great Club?s heart and soul?
Tradition, Legend, History,
Should count a little more
Than schemes cooked up by Tesco,
Or some such Chain of Stores.
Chairmen, Players and Managers,
They come and then they go.
While we the loyal fans remain,
Who love the Blueshirts so.
It?s we the fans who should decide
Where Everton will play.
We fans should have the casting vote,
And this is what we say:
We?ve been to Prague and Bucharest,
We?ve been to Rotterdam.
But we won?t go to Kirkby?
So shelve this harebrained plan!
21/3/07
I am neither shocked nor surprised by the latest renderings. In fact they look better than I thought they would - but only because when the next ones come out, they will be even worse. Then my expectations will have been matched!
There is no soul, passion or quality in this project. What’s the saying? ’Pay peanuts you get monkeys.’ Well I just wish we were paying peanuts, because the true cost of this is going to be far more than the £50m EFC indicate, and we still end up with something that Wigan, Reading et al wouldn’t be proud of!
But I guess, as a firm critic of the Kirkby plans, I suppose I would always feel this way. Out of interest, I showed the renderings to a colleague who was firmly in the yes camp. His sole recation was:
’Oh!’ then silence.
Enough said.
I’ve always believed that there are far more twists and turn in this road and it is far from certain that it will end in Kirkby. Please EFC deliver further plans, because with each one, dissention grows stronger.
There is no soul, passion or quality in this project. What’s the saying? ’Pay peanuts you get monkeys.’ Well I just wish we were paying peanuts, because the true cost of this is going to be far more than the £50m EFC indicate, and we still end up with something that Wigan, Reading et al wouldn’t be proud of!
But I guess, as a firm critic of the Kirkby plans, I suppose I would always feel this way. Out of interest, I showed the renderings to a colleague who was firmly in the yes camp. His sole recation was:
’Oh!’ then silence.
Enough said.
I’ve always believed that there are far more twists and turn in this road and it is far from certain that it will end in Kirkby. Please EFC deliver further plans, because with each one, dissention grows stronger.
Interesting that so few people have stuck up for the Tescodome on this thread.
Maybe, at long last, a few pennies are starting to drop.
Maybe, at long last, a few pennies are starting to drop.
These drive-in shopping malls are springing up all over the world, the soulless representations of money-grabbing corporates. In addition to Tesco there will be a JJBs a WH Smiths and of course what shopping experience would be complete without a visit to Starbucks. Faceless soulless and against everything that a football supporter holds dear.
The whole complex makes the ground look like a multiplex cinema complex with football being the latest blockbuster.
The whole complex makes the ground look like a multiplex cinema complex with football being the latest blockbuster.
I support Everton, not Goodison. I love the place but it will need to be replaced, so sentimental little songs about not leaving Goodison are absurd. Whether you like it or not to make it in football today you need to have a hell of a lot of money, and that money comes from corporate backers. The way you get that money is to have executive sweets and luxury boxes that are enticing to the big money spenders. And as much as it is a shock to see a shopping center around the stadium the truth is that this is the way the world is going. People were shocked when cars first became the mode of transport, then they were shocked when those small roads became express motorways. We can scream and shout about not wanting to change, but in 5 years time, when Liverpools new stadium is complete and we are still in Goodison, where do you think every single corporate executive will go to host some business partners or prospective customers? Which team will they choose to sponsor and which stadium will they want to have their name associated with? LCC won’t allow Everton to be expanded, that is already known.
Lyndon you wrote: ’My Everton is the Everton portrayed at the beginning of this promotional video: the packed familiarity of Goodison Road, the walk down narrow streets steeped in more history than the majority of football clubs can even dream, the scenes of jubilation from within Goodison Park’.
The major problem with that is simple. Any new stadium - even one built on the much-talked about ’Loop’ - would NOT be ’the Everton you love’. We are going to lose all that in any move, to whatever destination. It’s called progress.
You said ’Bill Kenwright’s silence on the issue indicated that he knows it’ - incorrect. There was a series of video blogs from Kenwright on the official site during the summer, pushing the idea of the new stadium, with him giving his total support to the plans. This was before the voting results were known, so he wasn’t hedging his bets either. He has publicly given his support. Just because he’s not giving soundbites every five minutes (and if he was, he’d be criticised by some, wouldn’t he, so he can’t win!) doesn’t mean he isn’t backing it.
You describe the stadium move as ’utterly out of character with our history’ - I’m not surprised - we haven’t moved in more than 115 years! A new facility won’t change our history. Last Thursday was one of my best days in going the match in nearly 25 years of match going. And that was in Nuremberg, Germany, in a brand new, thoroughly modern 47,000 capacity stadium. Inside, there wasn’t an obstructed view in sight, and outside, there wasn’t a cramped, horsemuck filled street directly outside the ground, nor was there lots of intimate pre-1960s style pubs immediately outside the ground either. But ask anyone who went if the matchgoing experience was all the poorer for it, and they will say it no, it wasn’t, far from it.
The major problem with that is simple. Any new stadium - even one built on the much-talked about ’Loop’ - would NOT be ’the Everton you love’. We are going to lose all that in any move, to whatever destination. It’s called progress.
You said ’Bill Kenwright’s silence on the issue indicated that he knows it’ - incorrect. There was a series of video blogs from Kenwright on the official site during the summer, pushing the idea of the new stadium, with him giving his total support to the plans. This was before the voting results were known, so he wasn’t hedging his bets either. He has publicly given his support. Just because he’s not giving soundbites every five minutes (and if he was, he’d be criticised by some, wouldn’t he, so he can’t win!) doesn’t mean he isn’t backing it.
You describe the stadium move as ’utterly out of character with our history’ - I’m not surprised - we haven’t moved in more than 115 years! A new facility won’t change our history. Last Thursday was one of my best days in going the match in nearly 25 years of match going. And that was in Nuremberg, Germany, in a brand new, thoroughly modern 47,000 capacity stadium. Inside, there wasn’t an obstructed view in sight, and outside, there wasn’t a cramped, horsemuck filled street directly outside the ground, nor was there lots of intimate pre-1960s style pubs immediately outside the ground either. But ask anyone who went if the matchgoing experience was all the poorer for it, and they will say it no, it wasn’t, far from it.
"As much as it is a shock to see a shopping centre (sic) around the stadium" - no it isn’t David.
Why are you shocked? We were told all this months ago.
I take all your other points (although I disagree with them) but I’m genuinely baffled as to why a guy like you, who seemed to have his finger on the pro-pulse all the way through the "yes" v "no" debate during the summer is now self-confessedly shocked to see a shopping centre right next to the ground.
The amount of "yes" voting Blues I’ve encountered today who have said they were similarly shocked / saddened/gutted etc on seeing these ghastly images has astounded me.
Why are you shocked? We were told all this months ago.
I take all your other points (although I disagree with them) but I’m genuinely baffled as to why a guy like you, who seemed to have his finger on the pro-pulse all the way through the "yes" v "no" debate during the summer is now self-confessedly shocked to see a shopping centre right next to the ground.
The amount of "yes" voting Blues I’ve encountered today who have said they were similarly shocked / saddened/gutted etc on seeing these ghastly images has astounded me.
David (Barks) you have articulated the need to move well:
"Which team will they choose to sponsor and which stadium will they want to have their name associated with?"
Now, be honest when Kirkby is done and the New Anfield is built ask the same question. A new stadium in a traditional environment, close to the City Center, or a cheap (at least half the price of NA) out of town stadium where your clients will battle to park with the Tesco shoppers?
That is why Kirkby is a no go.
"Which team will they choose to sponsor and which stadium will they want to have their name associated with?"
Now, be honest when Kirkby is done and the New Anfield is built ask the same question. A new stadium in a traditional environment, close to the City Center, or a cheap (at least half the price of NA) out of town stadium where your clients will battle to park with the Tesco shoppers?
That is why Kirkby is a no go.
Lyndon. A superb article that really brings home the devastating reality of what this board is trying to achieve.
How anyone can truely believe that Kirkby (and that awful flat packed excuse for a stadium) is the way forward for our great club is beyond me.
As a fan who has put in 45 years I’m sad to say that I wouldn’t put a foot inside any new ground in Kirkby. That would be betraying my beloved football club and all it stands for.
How anyone can truely believe that Kirkby (and that awful flat packed excuse for a stadium) is the way forward for our great club is beyond me.
As a fan who has put in 45 years I’m sad to say that I wouldn’t put a foot inside any new ground in Kirkby. That would be betraying my beloved football club and all it stands for.
"New Everton" ... what a load of Bollocks. This Board live in cloud cuckoo land. To spin a move with all the crassness of a certain political party (full of phoneys) shows just how far the luvie and fatboy live from reality.
After enjoying the football lately they are making my stomach churn again. Please Please come too your senses.
Maybe they think whilst we are enjoying a good run it is time to let out the bad news..
After enjoying the football lately they are making my stomach churn again. Please Please come too your senses.
Maybe they think whilst we are enjoying a good run it is time to let out the bad news..
David Barks.
To answer your question where the corporate money will go when LFC have built their new stadium - well it will be to a football club close to those values that they hold dear - alignment with local communities that they are all striving to attract to their businesses, close to Liverpool City Centre that is going through such an unprecidented sustained period of growth and rennaisance - it most certainly won’t be to Kirkby. We could build as many corporate boxes as the Kirkby site would take and we still wouldn’t sell many.
You see, the question isn’t new stadium with new facilities or tired Goodison, it is ... location, location, location.
To answer your question where the corporate money will go when LFC have built their new stadium - well it will be to a football club close to those values that they hold dear - alignment with local communities that they are all striving to attract to their businesses, close to Liverpool City Centre that is going through such an unprecidented sustained period of growth and rennaisance - it most certainly won’t be to Kirkby. We could build as many corporate boxes as the Kirkby site would take and we still wouldn’t sell many.
You see, the question isn’t new stadium with new facilities or tired Goodison, it is ... location, location, location.
At least we haven?t got a green house and put all the cabbages in ? that?s what the darkside have got
I completely agree, it looks plastic, manufactured and has no soul, you would think that if they were that determined to move us away from OUR city they would at least make a nice looking stadium, it just reminds me of the JJB Stadium next door to an ASDA!
I am all for the Bestway site, there only argument against it is the traffic, have you see the state of the access they have included in the Kirkby plans? It is going to be impossible to get through, especially as many people are off work on saturday and sumday and will be wanting to do their shopping in there local Tesco. It doesn?t bare thinking about.
I am disgusted that Kenwright hasn?t thought "hang on, should we really do a deal with a corporation that just wants to take advantage of our strong foothold in the Asian market?" because that is the only reason Tesco has an interest in Everton FC.
As for Wyness, I just do not trust him one bit, he?s slimy and cunning, he only wants to line his own pockets.
Please think about this project in some depth an after a good long think, watch Everton?s Official History DVD, because it had a lump in my throat and watwer in my eyes.
KEEP EVERTON IN OUR CITY- If Mr Kenwright doesn?t do the right thing, he will never forgive himself, I will never forgive him either!
I am all for the Bestway site, there only argument against it is the traffic, have you see the state of the access they have included in the Kirkby plans? It is going to be impossible to get through, especially as many people are off work on saturday and sumday and will be wanting to do their shopping in there local Tesco. It doesn?t bare thinking about.
I am disgusted that Kenwright hasn?t thought "hang on, should we really do a deal with a corporation that just wants to take advantage of our strong foothold in the Asian market?" because that is the only reason Tesco has an interest in Everton FC.
As for Wyness, I just do not trust him one bit, he?s slimy and cunning, he only wants to line his own pockets.
Please think about this project in some depth an after a good long think, watch Everton?s Official History DVD, because it had a lump in my throat and watwer in my eyes.
KEEP EVERTON IN OUR CITY- If Mr Kenwright doesn?t do the right thing, he will never forgive himself, I will never forgive him either!
Some of you are missing the point entirely. The location of a new stadium isn’t the problem, nor is the scale of ambition.
We could build a new stadium on any site in Liverpool in fact, and in direct competition with LFC’s new stadium, any sponsor, having to choose between the two facilities, would likely choose LFC every time.
Whether or not we move to Kirkby wouldn’t change that, so it’s an irrelevant point, and as such, shouldn’t be used as a strike against Kirkby.
We could build a new stadium on any site in Liverpool in fact, and in direct competition with LFC’s new stadium, any sponsor, having to choose between the two facilities, would likely choose LFC every time.
Whether or not we move to Kirkby wouldn’t change that, so it’s an irrelevant point, and as such, shouldn’t be used as a strike against Kirkby.
Some good comments, I couldn't agree more. I have supported Everton for some 53 years, and in that time about four times to my knowledge at least we (Everton) have approached Liverpool City Council for permission to build a stadium in Stanley Park, on every single occasion we have been met with the same response, NO , Stanley Park is a recreational area for the people of Liverpool to relax and enjoy oneself in open green surroundings, FOUR times.
That other lot across the park apply once and the Council are bending over backwards to accomodate their every whim, practically asking which way they would like it facing, and still we are told there is no favouritism within the ranks of the Council. Don't make me laugh, the whole shower are red through and through, if not red WHY the change of tune for that lot? Isnt Stanley Park a recreational area now.
OK if its going to be used for football purposes, why not go the whole hog and let us (Everton) also build in the park? It certainly is big enough, and how many major cities around the world could boast not one but two top stadiums of two major clubs built in landscaped parkland?
Also the cost of car parks would be shared by both clubs as its very rare both are home on the same afternoon. Just a thought, but I am absolutely livid that they have the very spot of ground that the original club in this city should be housed, its as if we are being booted out of the very area that saw the birth of football in this city by what is to my mind ( THE VERY SPAWN OF OUR CASTOFFS.) WE belong, they dont.
Sorry if ive gone on a bit.
Trevor,
You’re just plain wrong. If you were right then EFC would currently have NO corporate hangers on. The fact that we do have them when we provide woefully inadequate facilities shows that we can compete with LFC - not necessarily on the same scale - but competition all the same.
But if we are taken outside of the City geography, away from the area that the corporate money men hold dear, that competitive edge will have been mortally wounded. Quickly followed by our great club.
You’re just plain wrong. If you were right then EFC would currently have NO corporate hangers on. The fact that we do have them when we provide woefully inadequate facilities shows that we can compete with LFC - not necessarily on the same scale - but competition all the same.
But if we are taken outside of the City geography, away from the area that the corporate money men hold dear, that competitive edge will have been mortally wounded. Quickly followed by our great club.
I feel very angry, Silly comments made by people like Martin are very narrow minded. Its a disgrace that we are moving from our great city, and to be honest If we do go to Kirby I will not be going to see Everton anymore. So the future is a Tesco Value Stadium. The coporate world is encroaching on our lives on a daily basis. The people of The People?s Club are being swindled
I’m not shocked, I knew what it was going to be. I was speaking for all those who expressed shock at this. As for the argument that corporate sponsors will go to Liverpools new stadium because of the regeneration of Liverpool, what do you think this whole Kirkby project is??? This is part of a massive regeneration of a new Kirkby city center. Tesco are one of the biggest businesses in England and are choosing to put a store there because it is a good location, not in a wasteland in the middle of nowhere. My preferred choice would be to redevelop Goodison but LCC will not allow a larger footprint, which would be required.
David,
Keep backtracking all you want - eventually you may reach where the majority of the people who posted on this site are.
Bottom line: You said:
’as much as it is a shock to see a shopping center around the stadium’
Don’t insult us and make an ass of yourself by trying to insist you didn’t say it!
Keep backtracking all you want - eventually you may reach where the majority of the people who posted on this site are.
Bottom line: You said:
’as much as it is a shock to see a shopping center around the stadium’
Don’t insult us and make an ass of yourself by trying to insist you didn’t say it!
Dave Roberts and Lyndon, thanks for the information lads.
Bollocks Lyndon ..... Everton will go on and on .... outlasting both your opinions and mine. The club will move. The club will be successful. The Club will endure. You and I are doomed .... to death :-) ..... accept it mate ... Everton Football club are moving. I have always respected your opinions and read them religiously .... however ... give this one up. We ARE moving. Get on board.
Agree with everything you said Lyndon,Sadly as blues we may be chosen but I fear quite a few do not know the reason and too be honest Im not shocked at the latest shite planning pictures because when its built it will look even worse and is Dave Roberts Kenwrights son?
I am just waiting for T. Marsh reply, where is he when you need him?
So Lyndon, what?s the alternative again? Stay at Goodison? costs £750k minimum per season just for safety certificate... No money to rebuild it.... Move to the Loop, are you serious?! how long do you think plannng permission would take? and have you seen any deal offered to Everton which at leasts matches Tescos financial input and commitment?.. Have you seen the area around GPark ?looks great doesn?t it! ..Until the no voters find a viable alternative, Give it a rest boys...
Oh yeah... and what makes a stadium is the fans inside of it on a matchday and the atmosphere they create, not the look of the stadium.... and finally, as one of te contributorssaid.. Nurembergs stadium in the middle of nowhere, did it devalue your matchday experience?!
Oh yeah... and what makes a stadium is the fans inside of it on a matchday and the atmosphere they create, not the look of the stadium.... and finally, as one of te contributorssaid.. Nurembergs stadium in the middle of nowhere, did it devalue your matchday experience?!
?narrow streets steeped in history?, for one minute I thought someone had misplaced a Catherine Cookson novel, it should have read, ?narrow streets heaped with dog shit with nowhere to park your car?.
Lyndon, everybody loves Goodison end of argument, but the majority voted YES.
Any future development regarding any potential ground move to any location would have involved some sort of retail partnership, even the Kings Dock.
That?s what is paying for the thing.
Also the club are in the ?selling game? re the potential move, so the slick video is no suprise.
At least they didn?t produce the ?horror show? that was the KEIOC effort portraying civil unrest on a major scale if the new stadium went ahead.
All I believe you have achieved by your article is to re-open old wounds on a wave of sentimentatlity.
Lyndon, everybody loves Goodison end of argument, but the majority voted YES.
Any future development regarding any potential ground move to any location would have involved some sort of retail partnership, even the Kings Dock.
That?s what is paying for the thing.
Also the club are in the ?selling game? re the potential move, so the slick video is no suprise.
At least they didn?t produce the ?horror show? that was the KEIOC effort portraying civil unrest on a major scale if the new stadium went ahead.
All I believe you have achieved by your article is to re-open old wounds on a wave of sentimentatlity.
Steve Williams,
Take a breath and learn how to do a little thing called analytical thinking. If you would finish the rest of what I wrote I went on to explain the need to not be so shocked at such a thing, that it is all part of change and progression. I’m not exactly sure what I’m back tracking from. I am saying that I believe we need to move to a new stadium and that I am in favor of the move to Kirkby. Is that back tracking to you. And I hope to God I never reach where the majority of people posting on this site are. This site does not represent a majority of Evertonians, it represents a small portion, as can be proven by the fact that the majority of those voting voted yes, while the majority on this specific site said no. Do the match and you will see where the majority is. As I said, I would love for us to be able to redevelop Goodison but that is not going to happen so there is no point in holding on to that dream. You can’t just magically get the LCC to give permission to tear down the buildings that would need to go down in order to expand Goodison. Given this fact and that the Loop site is not a viable or financial option, I am in favor of this proposal to move to Kirkby as part of the major regeneration of the Kirkby city center. Things change, it happens. If LCC can provide a better option that is financially achievable and closer to Liverpool city center then I would be in favor of that, but if that was going to happen it would have done so already.
Take a breath and learn how to do a little thing called analytical thinking. If you would finish the rest of what I wrote I went on to explain the need to not be so shocked at such a thing, that it is all part of change and progression. I’m not exactly sure what I’m back tracking from. I am saying that I believe we need to move to a new stadium and that I am in favor of the move to Kirkby. Is that back tracking to you. And I hope to God I never reach where the majority of people posting on this site are. This site does not represent a majority of Evertonians, it represents a small portion, as can be proven by the fact that the majority of those voting voted yes, while the majority on this specific site said no. Do the match and you will see where the majority is. As I said, I would love for us to be able to redevelop Goodison but that is not going to happen so there is no point in holding on to that dream. You can’t just magically get the LCC to give permission to tear down the buildings that would need to go down in order to expand Goodison. Given this fact and that the Loop site is not a viable or financial option, I am in favor of this proposal to move to Kirkby as part of the major regeneration of the Kirkby city center. Things change, it happens. If LCC can provide a better option that is financially achievable and closer to Liverpool city center then I would be in favor of that, but if that was going to happen it would have done so already.
Hear Hear Lyndon!
Everthing an anti Move piece should be
Just as I was thinking what is happening on the stadium front, any plans yet from Bestway? up pops these promo?s... talk about a saturn return.
New Everton is yahoo?d, well I?m old Everton.
I?m also Old Labour...New Labour was the big thing and look what happened to that!
OOh!, a bit of politics, goodnight I?m Derek Thomas.
Everthing an anti Move piece should be
Just as I was thinking what is happening on the stadium front, any plans yet from Bestway? up pops these promo?s... talk about a saturn return.
New Everton is yahoo?d, well I?m old Everton.
I?m also Old Labour...New Labour was the big thing and look what happened to that!
OOh!, a bit of politics, goodnight I?m Derek Thomas.
Lyndon,
Your article sums up my feelings exactly.
I was born in Everton, brought up in Everton and have Everton on my birth certificate not Liverpool (Brougham Terrace was the regisrty office for Everton births).
This does not make me a better fan but it does mean that I will be nearly 60 when we move.
Having supported Everton since I first went at 5 years of age and having had a season ticket since 1967 it guts me to say that I won’t be going to Kirkby cos I won’t feel any affiliatiion with the club that plays there.
Your article sums up my feelings exactly.
I was born in Everton, brought up in Everton and have Everton on my birth certificate not Liverpool (Brougham Terrace was the regisrty office for Everton births).
This does not make me a better fan but it does mean that I will be nearly 60 when we move.
Having supported Everton since I first went at 5 years of age and having had a season ticket since 1967 it guts me to say that I won’t be going to Kirkby cos I won’t feel any affiliatiion with the club that plays there.
It looks shit.
I dont like it. Tescodome, souless, uninspired, bland, ikea’d....all correct.
Madejski, Pride Park, JJB, Reebok Stadium, Riverside. If you’ve been to any of them stadiums tell me thats what you want for Everton??
It looks shit
I’m not arsed about the politics, I’m gonna fight this tooth and nail. The location, the stadium...its all wrong. No-on, and I mean NO-ONE has come up with a list of proven guranteed positives that outweigh the negatives.
It looks shit.
It was said further up but United, Liverpool, Tottenahm, Arsenal, Newcastle all have excellent stadiums & none of them had to move very far or sell out so bad. We are as big as them so why are we?
It looks shite.
If the people in charge of this club cannot organise or convince this city of our importance & deliver us a stadium ina location we deserve then they should step aside before they are removed, simple as.
It looks shit.
I dont like it. Tescodome, souless, uninspired, bland, ikea’d....all correct.
Madejski, Pride Park, JJB, Reebok Stadium, Riverside. If you’ve been to any of them stadiums tell me thats what you want for Everton??
It looks shit
I’m not arsed about the politics, I’m gonna fight this tooth and nail. The location, the stadium...its all wrong. No-on, and I mean NO-ONE has come up with a list of proven guranteed positives that outweigh the negatives.
It looks shit.
It was said further up but United, Liverpool, Tottenahm, Arsenal, Newcastle all have excellent stadiums & none of them had to move very far or sell out so bad. We are as big as them so why are we?
It looks shite.
If the people in charge of this club cannot organise or convince this city of our importance & deliver us a stadium ina location we deserve then they should step aside before they are removed, simple as.
It looks shit.
Lyndon
Thanks for the article. I’m a 47 year old Evertonian, season ticket holder, who travels over with a group of Scouse exiles from Sheffield.
The idea of moving to a plastic stadium within a retail park makes me feel sick. I passed by a similar stadium the other day, Doncaster Rovers, bang in the middle of a retail development on the outskirts of Doncaster. No sense of history or any character whatsoever. If we make this Kirkby move we will be the same and it certainly won’t be my Everton any longer.
Those people shouting down any objections to the move - Dave Roberts for one - must support a different club. What he fails to factor into his bright new future is that he’ll be sitting in a half empty stadium watching Championship football because myself and thousands of others won’t be there.
Thanks for the article. I’m a 47 year old Evertonian, season ticket holder, who travels over with a group of Scouse exiles from Sheffield.
The idea of moving to a plastic stadium within a retail park makes me feel sick. I passed by a similar stadium the other day, Doncaster Rovers, bang in the middle of a retail development on the outskirts of Doncaster. No sense of history or any character whatsoever. If we make this Kirkby move we will be the same and it certainly won’t be my Everton any longer.
Those people shouting down any objections to the move - Dave Roberts for one - must support a different club. What he fails to factor into his bright new future is that he’ll be sitting in a half empty stadium watching Championship football because myself and thousands of others won’t be there.
Im in favour of a move away from Goodison, and seems as the club and board have their hearts set on Kirkby, then so be it.
But i really expected more from the new stadium. I think alot of people who are against moving to Kirkby would have been swayed more towards going there if the stadium had been a ground breaking one, sadly, it isnt.
Im looking for 4 things from a new stadium.
1. Ease of access, be it by public or personal transport, im not 100% but im pretty sure getting to the new Kirkby stadium will be easier than getting to Goodison. (if only for me, an out of towner)
2. Better parking. The only option available at Goodison at the moment that is of any validity for me is the car park on the far side of Stanley Park. Even I could do a better job of working out new parking facilities at the new stadium, so here is hoping the developers have.
3.A nice stadium, easy on the eye so to speak. Now Goodison isnt exactly this, but the new square box effort in Kirkby isnt either. One thing you cant deny, is that with Goodison, as you come through the small 2 storey houses surrounding it and catch a glimpse of the monolith in the distance towering above everything else around it, your first reaction is usually "wow". I want that from Kirkby, I want to be driving up to it, parking and walking towards it thinking, "awesome, they have really done us proud". if the designs stay the same, i have to say, ill be deeply dissapointed.
4. Better Seating and facilities, of course, any new stadium is going to achieve this, thats pretty much a no brainer.
So in summary, 3 out of 4 boxes ticked for me, but the one that isnt ticked is the decider unfortunately, there is no denying, that in this modern age, with modern acrhitecture reaching able to achieve breath taking results, we are getting a very cheap looking box. The stadium just isnt good enough.
But i really expected more from the new stadium. I think alot of people who are against moving to Kirkby would have been swayed more towards going there if the stadium had been a ground breaking one, sadly, it isnt.
Im looking for 4 things from a new stadium.
1. Ease of access, be it by public or personal transport, im not 100% but im pretty sure getting to the new Kirkby stadium will be easier than getting to Goodison. (if only for me, an out of towner)
2. Better parking. The only option available at Goodison at the moment that is of any validity for me is the car park on the far side of Stanley Park. Even I could do a better job of working out new parking facilities at the new stadium, so here is hoping the developers have.
3.A nice stadium, easy on the eye so to speak. Now Goodison isnt exactly this, but the new square box effort in Kirkby isnt either. One thing you cant deny, is that with Goodison, as you come through the small 2 storey houses surrounding it and catch a glimpse of the monolith in the distance towering above everything else around it, your first reaction is usually "wow". I want that from Kirkby, I want to be driving up to it, parking and walking towards it thinking, "awesome, they have really done us proud". if the designs stay the same, i have to say, ill be deeply dissapointed.
4. Better Seating and facilities, of course, any new stadium is going to achieve this, thats pretty much a no brainer.
So in summary, 3 out of 4 boxes ticked for me, but the one that isnt ticked is the decider unfortunately, there is no denying, that in this modern age, with modern acrhitecture reaching able to achieve breath taking results, we are getting a very cheap looking box. The stadium just isnt good enough.
Lyndon,
Thanks for stoking-up the stadium debate just when we were starting to acknowledge the decision. For some weeks now the mood has been positive and the debate focused on the performance of the team in the CCup, Europe and the Premiership.
Now I?m afraid we may need to dig-out our tin hats as the arguments on Kirkby will now re-start.
Thanks for stoking-up the stadium debate just when we were starting to acknowledge the decision. For some weeks now the mood has been positive and the debate focused on the performance of the team in the CCup, Europe and the Premiership.
Now I?m afraid we may need to dig-out our tin hats as the arguments on Kirkby will now re-start.
Fellow Everton fans, I have never written anything on this site before but I am now compelled to. I?m so glad I?m not the only who thinks that the designs for the new stadium look awful. It looks cheap and just looks like every other stadium there is around the world. Just look at our friends across the park - their designs are fresh and innovative, whereas we?ve gone with the first idea that?s come into the designer?s head! The more I see of this project the more I don?t like it. I think we?re rushing into something here that we?re all going to regret in the years to come and by then it?ll just be too late. We have to explore the other sites within the Liverpool boundaries. Wyness and Kenwright - please take another look around. I?ve already had enough of Liverpool fans calling it the supermarket stadium. I have a bad feeling about this I really do. Even if their are no other viable options then please have a re-think about the plans for the stadium. Let?s make it better than Liverpool?s, let?s make the fans proud to call Kirkby the home of Everton. It?s the people?s club for the people so give them us what we want!
The stills from this project say it all about the new stadium. It’s absolutely sickening. Awful. Horrible.
I agree with everything in this article.
Unfortunatley i have come to the conclusions after reading the article about the clubs finances we simply cannot afford to build a stadium of our own.
Also if the bestway site is such a great piece of land, why are bestway moving out? Also I have not heard any other financial proposals from KEIOC or Bestway.
To be honest i have now accepted that Kirkby is going to happen and that KEIOC/Bestway are putting a very limp counter proposal together.
Unfortunatley i have come to the conclusions after reading the article about the clubs finances we simply cannot afford to build a stadium of our own.
Also if the bestway site is such a great piece of land, why are bestway moving out? Also I have not heard any other financial proposals from KEIOC or Bestway.
To be honest i have now accepted that Kirkby is going to happen and that KEIOC/Bestway are putting a very limp counter proposal together.
As an architect, i am more and more dispondent with the images that are being spewed out.
I’m not sure who is designing the scheme and to what brief but as an icon for Everton Football Club, it is a soulless, heavy block that looks to me like a revamped Lansdowne Road that has recently been demolished.
Whatever the arguments on moving, we really did have a fantastic opportunity to produce a stadium to be proud of - an opportunity that has already been lost.
I’m not sure who is designing the scheme and to what brief but as an icon for Everton Football Club, it is a soulless, heavy block that looks to me like a revamped Lansdowne Road that has recently been demolished.
Whatever the arguments on moving, we really did have a fantastic opportunity to produce a stadium to be proud of - an opportunity that has already been lost.
Now look what you have done Lyndon... the great stadium debate has kicked off again all because of you. I heartily agree with you, as a supporter of 50 years, Goodison is our mecca as far as I am concerned and I only wish that we could rebuilt the Old Lady [and I don?t mean me although that?s not a bad idea!!]. I only wish it were possible - I don?t want to go to any plastic dome OUTSIDE of my City. It still galls that LFC were allowed to build on Stanley Park - does anyone know an African hoodoo man to put a curse on their new stadium? Unfortunatley, the die is cast and nothing is going to change and its too late to do anything about it, thanks to all those True Blues who voted for the move. Mind you what proof have we got that the majority of votes were in favour of the move? We only have the Club?s word for it.
Every thread i read on the stadium issue seems to be against the move.I am certainly against this attempt to turn into another Wigan or Bolton.Thats is what will happen.I just cannot fathom how this vote went against the seeming majority.We must find a way to stop ludicrous attempt to rip the soul out of our belved Everton Football Club.
I like Goodison Park, it is a good old fashioned stadium, but I am also happy to accept that it is not a long term possibility.
For those of you that have ever been to Pride Park or the Stadium of Light then it is the supporters & the team that make the stadium not the building itself.
THe reason the JJB and Reebok have no atmosphere is because they are half empty.
I was at Pride Park a few weeks ago, and I work in Derby. Their supporters didn?y want to leave the Baseball Ground but realised they had to. They now think Pride Park is an excellent stadium, fill it every week and create a good atmosphere for all their home games (even when their team is struggling).
The fact is very few people are going to like images of Kirkby as
a) it isn?t Goodison Park
b) its new
c) No-one has been there to experience it on a match night when the atmosphere turn somewhere failry normal into an emotional experience.
I realise people are attached to Goodison, but the football club is the people not the building and this can easily be transported to wherever it needs to be to secure its long term future.
For those of you that have ever been to Pride Park or the Stadium of Light then it is the supporters & the team that make the stadium not the building itself.
THe reason the JJB and Reebok have no atmosphere is because they are half empty.
I was at Pride Park a few weeks ago, and I work in Derby. Their supporters didn?y want to leave the Baseball Ground but realised they had to. They now think Pride Park is an excellent stadium, fill it every week and create a good atmosphere for all their home games (even when their team is struggling).
The fact is very few people are going to like images of Kirkby as
a) it isn?t Goodison Park
b) its new
c) No-one has been there to experience it on a match night when the atmosphere turn somewhere failry normal into an emotional experience.
I realise people are attached to Goodison, but the football club is the people not the building and this can easily be transported to wherever it needs to be to secure its long term future.
I really despair....
Not at the latest "artists impressions" or computer generated images...but at the fact that every time the club release any information on the (proposed) move,the same old tripe comes out time and time again..
Certain things are going to happen, the club is (eventually ) going to move,probably to Kirkby.
We wont be building a 400 million pound statium..
We may have a stadium , than could look similiar to The Reebok,Riverside,Madjeski..etc
We wont have 10,15 or 20,000 comatose..Bolton,Boro or Reading fans inside....
We wont be traipsing thru piles of dogshit going to or from the stadium..
We may...actually be able to get served in a well lit ,clean modern purpose built bar before the game in under 30 minutes..
I wont have to miss half the game if I want a piss,a coffee or a hotdog..
I wont be leaving my soul behind at the grand old lady..
I will take my memories with me...and I will take my voice,I will still shout and sing just as loud...safe in the knowledge that wherever I sit I will see the game that cost me around about £100 every time I take myself and my sons to watch.
I will have to add on an extra 30 or so minutes to my journey to the ground...
I may have to pay a little extra...
But it will all be worth it, because once that whistle goes I will be watching Everton Football Club....The club I have and always will support all my life.
They dont always treat me well..sometimes even badly..but I love them..I always have...And if its concrete instead of bricks..just as it was once sitting over standing...I will move on..take my place..and continue to love them.
If anybody decides that they no longer love them..so be it..move on , thank you for the time you have given us and the money you have spent...somebody else will take your place.. Nobody will take mine
Not at the latest "artists impressions" or computer generated images...but at the fact that every time the club release any information on the (proposed) move,the same old tripe comes out time and time again..
Certain things are going to happen, the club is (eventually ) going to move,probably to Kirkby.
We wont be building a 400 million pound statium..
We may have a stadium , than could look similiar to The Reebok,Riverside,Madjeski..etc
We wont have 10,15 or 20,000 comatose..Bolton,Boro or Reading fans inside....
We wont be traipsing thru piles of dogshit going to or from the stadium..
We may...actually be able to get served in a well lit ,clean modern purpose built bar before the game in under 30 minutes..
I wont have to miss half the game if I want a piss,a coffee or a hotdog..
I wont be leaving my soul behind at the grand old lady..
I will take my memories with me...and I will take my voice,I will still shout and sing just as loud...safe in the knowledge that wherever I sit I will see the game that cost me around about £100 every time I take myself and my sons to watch.
I will have to add on an extra 30 or so minutes to my journey to the ground...
I may have to pay a little extra...
But it will all be worth it, because once that whistle goes I will be watching Everton Football Club....The club I have and always will support all my life.
They dont always treat me well..sometimes even badly..but I love them..I always have...And if its concrete instead of bricks..just as it was once sitting over standing...I will move on..take my place..and continue to love them.
If anybody decides that they no longer love them..so be it..move on , thank you for the time you have given us and the money you have spent...somebody else will take your place.. Nobody will take mine
’and that continues to represent the City of Liverpool better in Europe than the club that actually bears its name’ you claim.
Erm, everton have played less European games in the past 10 years than Liverpool have in the past 10 months. everton are virtually unheard of in Europe and have achieved virtually nothing, the likes of Aberdeen and Ipswich Town have a better European pedigree than everton.
In contrast, Liverpool are by far and away the most successful British club in Europe, the 3rd most successful club in Europe overall, and have represented our city hundreds of times with honour, whilst putting Liverpool firmly on the map. What have everton done in Europe?Virtually nothing really.
An interesting stat emerged last week; Rafael Benitez was involved in his 51st game in Europe whilst manager of LFC, achieved in just over 3 years. Two days later, everton also played their 51st game in Europe ... in their entire history. No doubt the usual ’lets blame all out failures on Heysel’ crap will come back from you lot.
In summary, once again Lyndon Lloyd, you prove you haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about, no wonder you chose to support everton. Where are you from again?
Erm, everton have played less European games in the past 10 years than Liverpool have in the past 10 months. everton are virtually unheard of in Europe and have achieved virtually nothing, the likes of Aberdeen and Ipswich Town have a better European pedigree than everton.
In contrast, Liverpool are by far and away the most successful British club in Europe, the 3rd most successful club in Europe overall, and have represented our city hundreds of times with honour, whilst putting Liverpool firmly on the map. What have everton done in Europe?Virtually nothing really.
An interesting stat emerged last week; Rafael Benitez was involved in his 51st game in Europe whilst manager of LFC, achieved in just over 3 years. Two days later, everton also played their 51st game in Europe ... in their entire history. No doubt the usual ’lets blame all out failures on Heysel’ crap will come back from you lot.
In summary, once again Lyndon Lloyd, you prove you haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about, no wonder you chose to support everton. Where are you from again?
Jim Jones:
Yes your statistics are correct on your clubs trophy winning success..however I believe Everton have represented the city and the country far better on our sparse (compared to yours) European adventures..simply by virtue of the fact that we have manged not to murder anybody..not storm a stadium because our blag tickets had caused overcrowding..managed not to fight with police..and managed not to drop paving slabs onto innocent bulgarians...But I suppose its all about the trophies really...
Yes your statistics are correct on your clubs trophy winning success..however I believe Everton have represented the city and the country far better on our sparse (compared to yours) European adventures..simply by virtue of the fact that we have manged not to murder anybody..not storm a stadium because our blag tickets had caused overcrowding..managed not to fight with police..and managed not to drop paving slabs onto innocent bulgarians...But I suppose its all about the trophies really...
John S - Lyndon didn’t "stoke up" the stadium debate again yesterday. The Club or Tesco (or are they both one now?) did so by releasing those putrid images that they never would have dared to release during the vote phase.
You’re quite right. The mood around Evertonia has been incredibly upbeat of late since the Derby - and with good reason.
Might this be why the Club/Tesco have released these images now? They knew they had to at some point. What better time than when the delirious post-Nuremberg fan base has been suitably softened-up and there’s a great feelgood factor around?
Not only that, but by releasing them yesterday they know that there’s another 10 days before the Evertonian collective re-assembles and they are probably hoping that the widespread fury at just how dire these images are might well have dissipated by then.
You know the old PR adage to pick your time carefully to "bury bad news" (I seem to remember a government spin doctor getting the bullet for releasing bad news on 9/11 in the hope that no-one would notice)?
Well I can just hear the strategy meeting now. "Look, we’re on a great run, the fans are chuffed, we’ll announce that AJ has re-signed, also let it slip that Moyesie and Lescott are in talks too, we’ll release the quality stats site on the OS and we’ll get the Official History DVD out there to a big fanfare and then we’ll slip these Tesco images into the fray in the middle of all that.
"There’s no game for another 10 days so by then they’ll have blown out of their own steam and we’ll just crack on".
Must think we’re thick.
By all means, John, if you’re pro the move and pro the images then fair dos - each to his own - but don’t suggest that Lyndon has started the debate again when it was EFC so clearly trading on the big balloon of optimism that pervades Evertonia right now.
What you’re effectively saying is that we shouldn’t have a right of reply to the Club, especially when it unleashes guff like this on us, purely because the team is doing well.
EFC is surely the whole package. If the team’s doing well, then great. But that shouldn’t preclude us having a simultaneous debate about any off-field matters any more than the team doing poorly should stop us.
Things happen when they happen. Or do they?
For I’m reliably informed that these images and videos have been ready for weeks (hence why there’s no action on the Stubbs video later than the Pienaar goal in the Boro game on September 30th...strange that there’s no Larissa, Derby, Luton, Birmingham, Nuremberg and Chelsea footage isn’t it? I mean surely the scenes after the Carsley equaliser are better to show, in Stubbs’ scally words "what Everton means", than the Pienaar goal v Boro? Yes, of course they are. As would the tremendous Nuremberg scenes. But they couldn’t use that footage could they? Because the truth is that this video and those images have been ready for weeks. For some reason EFC/Tesco decided to launch them on the fanbase this week probably in the hope that we’ll all still be lying on our happy backs after the Nuremberg and Chelsea game happy to have our tums tickled).
The stadium debate is back - and trust me, I’m as tired of it as you are - but it wasn’t Lyndon that restarted it.
You’re quite right. The mood around Evertonia has been incredibly upbeat of late since the Derby - and with good reason.
Might this be why the Club/Tesco have released these images now? They knew they had to at some point. What better time than when the delirious post-Nuremberg fan base has been suitably softened-up and there’s a great feelgood factor around?
Not only that, but by releasing them yesterday they know that there’s another 10 days before the Evertonian collective re-assembles and they are probably hoping that the widespread fury at just how dire these images are might well have dissipated by then.
You know the old PR adage to pick your time carefully to "bury bad news" (I seem to remember a government spin doctor getting the bullet for releasing bad news on 9/11 in the hope that no-one would notice)?
Well I can just hear the strategy meeting now. "Look, we’re on a great run, the fans are chuffed, we’ll announce that AJ has re-signed, also let it slip that Moyesie and Lescott are in talks too, we’ll release the quality stats site on the OS and we’ll get the Official History DVD out there to a big fanfare and then we’ll slip these Tesco images into the fray in the middle of all that.
"There’s no game for another 10 days so by then they’ll have blown out of their own steam and we’ll just crack on".
Must think we’re thick.
By all means, John, if you’re pro the move and pro the images then fair dos - each to his own - but don’t suggest that Lyndon has started the debate again when it was EFC so clearly trading on the big balloon of optimism that pervades Evertonia right now.
What you’re effectively saying is that we shouldn’t have a right of reply to the Club, especially when it unleashes guff like this on us, purely because the team is doing well.
EFC is surely the whole package. If the team’s doing well, then great. But that shouldn’t preclude us having a simultaneous debate about any off-field matters any more than the team doing poorly should stop us.
Things happen when they happen. Or do they?
For I’m reliably informed that these images and videos have been ready for weeks (hence why there’s no action on the Stubbs video later than the Pienaar goal in the Boro game on September 30th...strange that there’s no Larissa, Derby, Luton, Birmingham, Nuremberg and Chelsea footage isn’t it? I mean surely the scenes after the Carsley equaliser are better to show, in Stubbs’ scally words "what Everton means", than the Pienaar goal v Boro? Yes, of course they are. As would the tremendous Nuremberg scenes. But they couldn’t use that footage could they? Because the truth is that this video and those images have been ready for weeks. For some reason EFC/Tesco decided to launch them on the fanbase this week probably in the hope that we’ll all still be lying on our happy backs after the Nuremberg and Chelsea game happy to have our tums tickled).
The stadium debate is back - and trust me, I’m as tired of it as you are - but it wasn’t Lyndon that restarted it.
SInce when has the number of games you?ve played related to how you represent someone.
Everton have always represented the city with courtesty abroad, and have enver been involved in any trouble at any of their games to my recollection.
Liverpool on the other hand have been involved in numerous instances over the past few years, including at the last European Cup FInal. So yes, they?ve palyed more games but quantity doesn?t always amount to quality.
Everton have always represented the city with courtesty abroad, and have enver been involved in any trouble at any of their games to my recollection.
Liverpool on the other hand have been involved in numerous instances over the past few years, including at the last European Cup FInal. So yes, they?ve palyed more games but quantity doesn?t always amount to quality.
Chris Briddon - You’re right - but don’t feed the trolls bud. There’s a rogue kopshite on here. Don’t let him chase us down a trivial rabbit-hole and divert us from the main debate. Let him High-5 us all he wants. Not arsed. Just ignore the balloon and he’ll go away.
Some fans have said that by staying at Goodison we will be in the shadow of the shites new stadium,and do we really want that?Well lads,I would rather have the old Goodison in the shadow of the shite,rather than a crap stadium in the shadows of a supermarket that will probalby be bigger than the stadium.Thinking about it,the supermarket design looks more impressive than the new stadium does.One more thing,can any off the lads who voted yes,with hand on heart,say they felt like crying when they glimpsed these new set of pictures?
Terry said: "I will have to add on an extra 30 or so minutes to my journey to the ground...
I may have to pay a little extra..."
What kind of business would expect a bigger turnout given just these two little observations.
and...."If anybody decides that they no longer love them..so be it..move on , thank you for the time you have given us and the money you have spent...somebody else will take your place.. Nobody will take mine "
Lets get something seriously straight here..... there aren’t thousands of blues on our waiting lists ready to take anyone’s place. We barely fill 40,000 seats now, and that’s with the best side we have had in years, so where do you think all these new regulars are going to come from is beyond me. ..... and even then why would you want those who currently stay away, wouldn’t you prefer those that have watched us through thick and thin for years? This inverted arrogance is astounding. Make no mistake, we need every Evertonian that there is to attend, we crtainly don’t need to make it more difficult for them to get there, we don’t need to completely rearrange the matchday experience of thousands of regular blues. These people who just drive upto the match, watch the game then go home straight after need to realise that thousands make an afternoon/day of it. There will be nothing in kirkby to entice these especially when most games are shown live these days, they will simply vote with their feet.
Some people have made reference to the Nuremberg experience..... firstly Nuremberg was probably the poorest of the world cup stadia, and incidentally isn’t that new, so god knows what you would have made of the other stadia which are far superior. Out of town stadia are predominently a thing of the past. In the US they are shoehorning them into downtown areas and knocking all the out of town ones down. They can only ever work (and this is disregarding identity issues) with a comprehensive mass public transport network serving them. This is the case in Germany, it will never be so in Kirkby even with 1 tram line. Personally, I found being in the upper tier behind the goal, and approx 170m from the far goal not that great. Thankfully, a coach was laid on to take me home after the game, I don’t think there’s similar plans for everyone at Kirkby. On top of all that remember that this is the cheapest possible stadium that we could get at Kirkby. It’s a basic off the shelf design from Barr...... hardly in keeping with our stadium building traditions. Despite this....according to Wyness this stadium will cost EFC a minimum of £50m...... some figures indicate more like £80m+. Not bad for a stadium for "parctically nothing" as was promised before the ballot. £50m could completely transform Goodison Park. £80m would literally turn it into the newest and most Historic stadium in the world. Why weren’t these figures released before the vote? Because basically, they wouldn’t have got anyone voting for Kirkby, and BK/KW would not have had Tesco doing all his work for them...... blind alley anyone?
I may have to pay a little extra..."
What kind of business would expect a bigger turnout given just these two little observations.
and...."If anybody decides that they no longer love them..so be it..move on , thank you for the time you have given us and the money you have spent...somebody else will take your place.. Nobody will take mine "
Lets get something seriously straight here..... there aren’t thousands of blues on our waiting lists ready to take anyone’s place. We barely fill 40,000 seats now, and that’s with the best side we have had in years, so where do you think all these new regulars are going to come from is beyond me. ..... and even then why would you want those who currently stay away, wouldn’t you prefer those that have watched us through thick and thin for years? This inverted arrogance is astounding. Make no mistake, we need every Evertonian that there is to attend, we crtainly don’t need to make it more difficult for them to get there, we don’t need to completely rearrange the matchday experience of thousands of regular blues. These people who just drive upto the match, watch the game then go home straight after need to realise that thousands make an afternoon/day of it. There will be nothing in kirkby to entice these especially when most games are shown live these days, they will simply vote with their feet.
Some people have made reference to the Nuremberg experience..... firstly Nuremberg was probably the poorest of the world cup stadia, and incidentally isn’t that new, so god knows what you would have made of the other stadia which are far superior. Out of town stadia are predominently a thing of the past. In the US they are shoehorning them into downtown areas and knocking all the out of town ones down. They can only ever work (and this is disregarding identity issues) with a comprehensive mass public transport network serving them. This is the case in Germany, it will never be so in Kirkby even with 1 tram line. Personally, I found being in the upper tier behind the goal, and approx 170m from the far goal not that great. Thankfully, a coach was laid on to take me home after the game, I don’t think there’s similar plans for everyone at Kirkby. On top of all that remember that this is the cheapest possible stadium that we could get at Kirkby. It’s a basic off the shelf design from Barr...... hardly in keeping with our stadium building traditions. Despite this....according to Wyness this stadium will cost EFC a minimum of £50m...... some figures indicate more like £80m+. Not bad for a stadium for "parctically nothing" as was promised before the ballot. £50m could completely transform Goodison Park. £80m would literally turn it into the newest and most Historic stadium in the world. Why weren’t these figures released before the vote? Because basically, they wouldn’t have got anyone voting for Kirkby, and BK/KW would not have had Tesco doing all his work for them...... blind alley anyone?
Everton have been involved in plenty of unsavoury incidents over the years, racism was / is rife at goodison park, rioting at a friendly v Anderlecht a few years ago, numerous incidents domestically (Reading last year etc). Trying to portray yourselves as angels really is hilarious, you obviously don?t go to many of your away games, which I?ve been told are full of ?ninjas? dishing out abuse.
Taking the moral high ground because you haven?t caused any trouble in Europe is ridiculous, it isn?t hard to not cause trouble when you?re not there. Turning it round, LFC have had far more incident free games in Europe than everton. Claiming everton have represented OUR city in Europe better than LFC is wrong, it?s like Man City fans claiming they?ve represented Manchester better then United, or West Ham fans claiming they?ve represented London better than Arsenal, simply because they?ve had less incidents as a result of playing far less games.
Taking the moral high ground because you haven?t caused any trouble in Europe is ridiculous, it isn?t hard to not cause trouble when you?re not there. Turning it round, LFC have had far more incident free games in Europe than everton. Claiming everton have represented OUR city in Europe better than LFC is wrong, it?s like Man City fans claiming they?ve represented Manchester better then United, or West Ham fans claiming they?ve represented London better than Arsenal, simply because they?ve had less incidents as a result of playing far less games.
Welcome to a vision of the souless Meccano land the club hope to deliver.
I hope 15000 of us are happy about it, the rest of us will just have to live with it.
I hope 15000 of us are happy about it, the rest of us will just have to live with it.
Jim, I went to plenty of games at anfield in the 70’s and 80’s, and I can assure you racism wasn’t confined to Evertonians. As far as it being rife at Goodison nowadays, I can’t say I’ve noticed. There obviously still is the odd clown, and there may be a bit of a resurgence in footy violence nationwide, but I don’t think it’s anymore pronounced at our place than yours. I’m not sure about claiming the moral high ground etc, but you really cannot just paint over the catastrophy that was Heysel, nor the chaos of Athens as if nothing untoward happened, or denying that it was the responsibility of Liverpool FC or its fans. These are historic and indelible stains that quite frankly we don’t have.
So a kopite is coming on an everton website trying to defend its actions of its fans abroad and trying to make out that we're just as bad... ridiculous! Listen, Jim, YOUR fans our the worst in English football history, FACT.
People who voted yes had/have no more influence over the clubs decission than the people who voted no or the people who decided not to vote in the biggest joke to democracy since Bush got into power over the pond.
All you have done is given Wyness the moral high ground to state after every sentance regarding the move "we are following a mandate from our fans"
This board were always going to do what they wanted one way or another, if a better business site became available in Maghul or any other town outside Liverpool we would be on our way there instead.
But we are not purely a business are we?
All you have done is given Wyness the moral high ground to state after every sentance regarding the move "we are following a mandate from our fans"
This board were always going to do what they wanted one way or another, if a better business site became available in Maghul or any other town outside Liverpool we would be on our way there instead.
But we are not purely a business are we?
The design of the ground has bothered me right from the start. Remember this is the same company who designed the Warrington Wolves and Tesco’s complex.
Take a trip to Warrington and have a look at the ground because this is what we’re getting.
Take a trip to Warrington and have a look at the ground because this is what we’re getting.
I just hope it is a bad dream and it will all go away. I saw that there will be a mutli-story car park for parking. Great. Will fans who have to travel by carto games, park in a multi-story? If so can you imagine the length of time it will take to get away. I think if it is too much hassle, and the team is not playing particulary well, fans will be fickle and give it a miss.
Let me start by saying that i have always been against the move to Kirkby (but was in favour of the Kings Dock proposal).
The new images didn’t surprise me as I took the previous "artists impressions" night views of the new stadium with a pinch of salt.
The close proxcimity of the Tesco store will be a major problem. What are the major lines these days for any supermarket? Ale is the answer to my own question. So how long will supporters be able to enter the Tescos and buy 6 cans / 4 bottles and a pie etc before the police are refusing permission for grown men to enter a supermarket?
Given the lack of ale houses near by how long before supporters start drinking clubs in the tesco carpark?
Call me old fashioned but i can see some good old new labour anti social behaviour legislation being put in place very quickly - how long until the carparks and immediate are are put under a drink free zone order.
Tescos will also soon realise that shoppers don’t go to Tescos Kirkby on a Saturday during the football season (running from August to May remember) when Everton play at home or during the mid week nights when Everton are at home. This potential 40 -50 million shortfall will I ’m sure result in them trying to exact somekind of football exclusion to their "zone" of the retail park. What do we do then?
This is a half arsed project based upon the -"we’ve spun them so many lies that we must be seen to do something school of running a football club"
The only glimmer of light I see is that the dark side’s stadium price rises each week and now the yanks appear to be arguing over how to finance it given the tightening of international capital following the sub - prime mortgage explosion. Is it possible they may have to think again? If so a sensible stadium design and well timed approach to the council could see Goodison being rebuilt on site and using only one tenth of the land in the park that the pinkies want or am I just dreaming?
The new images didn’t surprise me as I took the previous "artists impressions" night views of the new stadium with a pinch of salt.
The close proxcimity of the Tesco store will be a major problem. What are the major lines these days for any supermarket? Ale is the answer to my own question. So how long will supporters be able to enter the Tescos and buy 6 cans / 4 bottles and a pie etc before the police are refusing permission for grown men to enter a supermarket?
Given the lack of ale houses near by how long before supporters start drinking clubs in the tesco carpark?
Call me old fashioned but i can see some good old new labour anti social behaviour legislation being put in place very quickly - how long until the carparks and immediate are are put under a drink free zone order.
Tescos will also soon realise that shoppers don’t go to Tescos Kirkby on a Saturday during the football season (running from August to May remember) when Everton play at home or during the mid week nights when Everton are at home. This potential 40 -50 million shortfall will I ’m sure result in them trying to exact somekind of football exclusion to their "zone" of the retail park. What do we do then?
This is a half arsed project based upon the -"we’ve spun them so many lies that we must be seen to do something school of running a football club"
The only glimmer of light I see is that the dark side’s stadium price rises each week and now the yanks appear to be arguing over how to finance it given the tightening of international capital following the sub - prime mortgage explosion. Is it possible they may have to think again? If so a sensible stadium design and well timed approach to the council could see Goodison being rebuilt on site and using only one tenth of the land in the park that the pinkies want or am I just dreaming?
Re the vote and the win for the Yes "Camp" - I am prepared to accept it - but as we don’t live in a state like the old Soviet Union I feel that Lyndon is perfectly entitled to air his views.
When Mrs T won the election in ’79- the first at which I was eligible to vote-it wasn’t a case of yes Mrs Thatcher,No Mrs Thatcher 3 bags full Mrs Thatcher. The debate continued and those who opposed expressed their opinions.
We have every right to express our views if we disagree with the move.For some of us the words to the song "If you know ya History" are more than just mere words.Everton’s history is precious and must be protected and cherished.
I would accept the move if it was to a site within the city boundaries or if I was convinced that the possibilities of redeveloping Goodison had been fully explored and I mean fully explored.
I must also add the final point - I would accept a move more readily if we had a little less vitriol from those who voted Yes whenever the opposite view is expressed. Most of the name calling and bitterness seems to come from those who voted Yes.
I accept the vote - but they must also accept the right of people to express an opposing opinion.
When Mrs T won the election in ’79- the first at which I was eligible to vote-it wasn’t a case of yes Mrs Thatcher,No Mrs Thatcher 3 bags full Mrs Thatcher. The debate continued and those who opposed expressed their opinions.
We have every right to express our views if we disagree with the move.For some of us the words to the song "If you know ya History" are more than just mere words.Everton’s history is precious and must be protected and cherished.
I would accept the move if it was to a site within the city boundaries or if I was convinced that the possibilities of redeveloping Goodison had been fully explored and I mean fully explored.
I must also add the final point - I would accept a move more readily if we had a little less vitriol from those who voted Yes whenever the opposite view is expressed. Most of the name calling and bitterness seems to come from those who voted Yes.
I accept the vote - but they must also accept the right of people to express an opposing opinion.
Tom Hughes:
" These people who just drive upto the match, watch the game then go home straight after need to realise that thousands make an afternoon/day of it. There will be nothing in kirkby to entice these especially when most games are shown live these days, they will simply vote with their feet."
Please show me the delights I have missed out on in the four years I spent living in Walton....If I had known of all the tourist attractions..I may well have rented my spare room out...!!!
"Lets get something seriously straight here..... there aren?t thousands of blues on our waiting lists ready to take anyone?s place. We barely fill 40,000 seats now, and that?s with the best side we have had in years, so where do you think all these new regulars are going to come from is beyond me. .."
They will come from the same place they have always come from......and my reference to "30 minutes longer journey" and "paying a bit more"..for the extra comfort it will be worth it..and it may be further away for me as I live in the city centre now..but for many people its easier to get to ...
" These people who just drive upto the match, watch the game then go home straight after need to realise that thousands make an afternoon/day of it. There will be nothing in kirkby to entice these especially when most games are shown live these days, they will simply vote with their feet."
Please show me the delights I have missed out on in the four years I spent living in Walton....If I had known of all the tourist attractions..I may well have rented my spare room out...!!!
"Lets get something seriously straight here..... there aren?t thousands of blues on our waiting lists ready to take anyone?s place. We barely fill 40,000 seats now, and that?s with the best side we have had in years, so where do you think all these new regulars are going to come from is beyond me. .."
They will come from the same place they have always come from......and my reference to "30 minutes longer journey" and "paying a bit more"..for the extra comfort it will be worth it..and it may be further away for me as I live in the city centre now..but for many people its easier to get to ...
I don’t always agree with everything written by Lyndon Lloyd but I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I don’t have any objections to moving. Goodison is past its sell by date and howevery much we try and convince ourselves too tricky to re-develop.
I also don’t object to moving to Kirkby. Yes it won’t be as easy to get to and it is further away than ideal, but it is not like we’re going to be the next MK Dons.
My objection is Tesco and this is confirmed by these new videos on the official site. Its the vision of "New Goodison" sitting alongside a Tesco Megastore, a JJB sports, a Mcdonalds drive through with a Carpet Right on the doorstep. Its a soulless embarrassment and our club deserves better.
Ask yourself this: which do you prefer, Craven Cottage or The Reebok? Fratton Park or The Riverside? Everyone hates those identikit flat pack stadiums and that is exactly what we will have.
The only time a new stadium works is when they befit a clubs tradion - The Emirates is a case in point.
Did I vote ’yes’? No. Were we blackmailed into it by mr Wyness? Yes. Its not too late? I hope not. LCC over to you.
I don’t have any objections to moving. Goodison is past its sell by date and howevery much we try and convince ourselves too tricky to re-develop.
I also don’t object to moving to Kirkby. Yes it won’t be as easy to get to and it is further away than ideal, but it is not like we’re going to be the next MK Dons.
My objection is Tesco and this is confirmed by these new videos on the official site. Its the vision of "New Goodison" sitting alongside a Tesco Megastore, a JJB sports, a Mcdonalds drive through with a Carpet Right on the doorstep. Its a soulless embarrassment and our club deserves better.
Ask yourself this: which do you prefer, Craven Cottage or The Reebok? Fratton Park or The Riverside? Everyone hates those identikit flat pack stadiums and that is exactly what we will have.
The only time a new stadium works is when they befit a clubs tradion - The Emirates is a case in point.
Did I vote ’yes’? No. Were we blackmailed into it by mr Wyness? Yes. Its not too late? I hope not. LCC over to you.
I will miss the walk through the narrow streets steeped in dog excrement, not bothering to buy a half time drink because you can’t get near the catering, sitting in the traffic on Queens Drive, looking at County Road with its discount shops and bad cafes. TWO major points. Everton does not do anything for an area in need of regeneration. The land could be put to a better use for either business or shopping or even a nice green space. Look at the houses in the area. Most of them really well kept overlooked by the ramshackle shed which is now Goodison.
Liverpool is a part of MERSEYSIDE which is what it will become politically in due course. Ever heard of Greater Manchester It is only the pathetic self interest of Liverpool Councillors which keeps the City so inward looking and small minded. Everton is a club, not a piece of land. Manchester United do not draw their support from Salford.
As George Harrison pronounced..all things must pass..This includes Goodison, Anfield and everywhere else. The world moves on and I hope Everton do not do it twenty years too late like Liverpool City Council always do.
If we do not move then resign yourself to being a small time yo-yo club like Sheffield United. If you are succesful on the field you need the space and facilities to profit from it or we will never have a hope of staying there.
Liverpool is a part of MERSEYSIDE which is what it will become politically in due course. Ever heard of Greater Manchester It is only the pathetic self interest of Liverpool Councillors which keeps the City so inward looking and small minded. Everton is a club, not a piece of land. Manchester United do not draw their support from Salford.
As George Harrison pronounced..all things must pass..This includes Goodison, Anfield and everywhere else. The world moves on and I hope Everton do not do it twenty years too late like Liverpool City Council always do.
If we do not move then resign yourself to being a small time yo-yo club like Sheffield United. If you are succesful on the field you need the space and facilities to profit from it or we will never have a hope of staying there.
Come on lads we cant blame Jim for wanting to protect his team. He loves them just as much as we love Everton. In fact he loves them so much that he is actively trawling the fans website of his local rivals in case we dare speak any ill of the team he adores. I, like most of us on here, would never dream of entering a Liverpool fans site to become involved in to what amounts as a private discussion about matters concerning the club and its fans. However, if Jim feels that he has to police our website then so be it. I am sure the rest of us don?t share the same insecurities as Jim as to where our football allegiances lie.
When the brochures arrived on the ground move in the summer I was 100% "No" to the ground move. As I read more and more, the argument became less clear. What were the viable alternatives? I understood the financial arguments and the need to move on. The 100% "No" became 90, 80, 70, 60%. I considered not voting (and many didn’t but must have felt like me - torn!) I went to St George’s Hall to view the alternatives. I wanted the alternatives to happen - but are they feasible or "deliverable"? I was still 60% "No". Three days before the deadline I cast my vote. I voted "No" having digested all the arguments for and against and nearly choked on them. The deciding factor for me was something touched upon in Lyndon’s article above. This is not a decision that can be reversed next month if we don’t like the place. This is a decision for the next 50 years - and something doesn’t feel right about it.
Michael - Well bearing in mind any yes voters immediately get jumped on for being stupid or nieve for expressing their opinion.
Stating
?I would accept a move more readily if we had a little less vitriol from those who voted Yes whenever the opposite view is expressed. Most of the name calling and bitterness seems to come from those who voted Yes.
I accept the vote - but they must also accept the right of people to express an opposing opinion.?
seems a bit off.
I didn?t get a vote, but used to be a season ticket holder for a number of years. I will be sad to leave Goodison but am happy to accept the decision has been made in the best itnerests of the club.
As for Kirkby, well as I?ve mentioned previously, there are a number of new stadiums that I have very much enjoyed visiting Pride Park, City of Manchester Stadium & the Stadium of Light amongs them.
It is the supporters & club who make the stadium what it is, not the building itself.
Stating
?I would accept a move more readily if we had a little less vitriol from those who voted Yes whenever the opposite view is expressed. Most of the name calling and bitterness seems to come from those who voted Yes.
I accept the vote - but they must also accept the right of people to express an opposing opinion.?
seems a bit off.
I didn?t get a vote, but used to be a season ticket holder for a number of years. I will be sad to leave Goodison but am happy to accept the decision has been made in the best itnerests of the club.
As for Kirkby, well as I?ve mentioned previously, there are a number of new stadiums that I have very much enjoyed visiting Pride Park, City of Manchester Stadium & the Stadium of Light amongs them.
It is the supporters & club who make the stadium what it is, not the building itself.
Our last season at Goodison will be my last as well. The club will never be the same if we go to Kirkby and them pictures are fuckin shambollic. What a piss take!!! Hope you fukin morons (15000 of ye?s) are happy at what you?ve done. No wonda they never showed them pictures before. Fuckin laughin stock!!!
Well done Jay you have just proved Chris Briddon’s point.
Once again I have trawled through all the responses of "another" Kirkby (Best make sure I spell that correctly or someone will tell me my opinion doesn’t matter) debate.
There have been many excellent posts and of course the dross still pops up intermittently.
I am still surprised by all the fans who state they will never go to Kirkby, are they season ticket holders or once a season fans? Why are you turning your back on such a big piece of your life just because it is moving out of an imagined boundary?
The fact remains, we can be as nostalgic as we want and say how the atmosphere leading up to the ground will diminish, guess what? It will anywhere we move to, there will never be a situation where we can build a new ground in the same cramp but excellent settings where Goodison is. It will be in open ground for accessability etc.
I will continue to support the club I love and will continue to renew my season ticket and am flabergasted as those who are turning their backs because they don’t like the look of the ground.
I don’t give two fooks what the ground looks like outside, as long as I can get a seat inside and watch my beloved Everton play and get a pint of warm flat piss at half time.
I support Everton FC and this will not be affected if the new stadium is a shit hole, they can still have my money.
Once again I have trawled through all the responses of "another" Kirkby (Best make sure I spell that correctly or someone will tell me my opinion doesn’t matter) debate.
There have been many excellent posts and of course the dross still pops up intermittently.
I am still surprised by all the fans who state they will never go to Kirkby, are they season ticket holders or once a season fans? Why are you turning your back on such a big piece of your life just because it is moving out of an imagined boundary?
The fact remains, we can be as nostalgic as we want and say how the atmosphere leading up to the ground will diminish, guess what? It will anywhere we move to, there will never be a situation where we can build a new ground in the same cramp but excellent settings where Goodison is. It will be in open ground for accessability etc.
I will continue to support the club I love and will continue to renew my season ticket and am flabergasted as those who are turning their backs because they don’t like the look of the ground.
I don’t give two fooks what the ground looks like outside, as long as I can get a seat inside and watch my beloved Everton play and get a pint of warm flat piss at half time.
I support Everton FC and this will not be affected if the new stadium is a shit hole, they can still have my money.
Everyone who says they will stop supporting Everton when we move stadiums is a total and absolute disgrace. If this is how fickle you are about the club please do what United fans did and form your own club, oh wait, Evertonians have done this before and formed Liverpool FC. Remember you support the club called Everton not a stadium called Goodison Park that happens to be the place where Everton play there games, and Goodison is in fact not even Everton’s first home. If your support only comes down to the stadium that the team play in then I suggest you find a club with the greatest stadium in the world. Don’t know where that is but it seems that is what would make you happy so please go on a journey to find it.
I have not entered this debate at all but Tony, that is a fascinating statement:
"I support Everton FC and this will not be affected if the new stadium is a shit hole, they can still have my money."
Gerard Madden suggests that the people voicing their opinions on here and elsewhere are just a whinging minority, but I think what you espouse in that one statement actually says far more about a fundamental diference among Evertonians, and you see it in any gathering. There are those who will accept anything the club does, who support them blindly, and will continue to fork over their money.
And there are those who won?t. It only needed 15,000 of the former to vote by rote, while the more thoughtful ones struggled with what is to my mind an extremely difficult question. Your simple approach to the problem helps me understand that a lot better. Thanks!
"I support Everton FC and this will not be affected if the new stadium is a shit hole, they can still have my money."
Gerard Madden suggests that the people voicing their opinions on here and elsewhere are just a whinging minority, but I think what you espouse in that one statement actually says far more about a fundamental diference among Evertonians, and you see it in any gathering. There are those who will accept anything the club does, who support them blindly, and will continue to fork over their money.
And there are those who won?t. It only needed 15,000 of the former to vote by rote, while the more thoughtful ones struggled with what is to my mind an extremely difficult question. Your simple approach to the problem helps me understand that a lot better. Thanks!
Tony Williams
Fans won’t go to kirkby because its going against what they believe, how much will tickets cost for kirkby £45 say, £600 for a season ticket say, are you asking people who are completely against kirkby to fork out this amount of money to watch everton at a stadium they don’t want?
Would you invest money into something you were completely against?
Fans won’t go to kirkby because its going against what they believe, how much will tickets cost for kirkby £45 say, £600 for a season ticket say, are you asking people who are completely against kirkby to fork out this amount of money to watch everton at a stadium they don’t want?
Would you invest money into something you were completely against?
The emotional side of this is undeniable...no-one wants to leave Goodison period. Even the ’yes’ voters if given the option to stay in an expanded, modernised, Goodison would take that in a heartbeat.
Problem is the same as it has been for years....that, simply, is NOT an option that we have. Everton Football Club CAN NOT stay at Goodison Park.
Even if the funds could be found to make the necessary reconstruction we would be tied up in planning authority red-tape beyond the point at which the Old Lady would be economically viable anyway. there is simply too much encroachment on the surrounding residential area. Even KEOIC have defacto accepted this with their pipe-dream of the ’Loop’.
This, unfortunately, is where the whole emotive thing falls down...its good to love the club, its good to want its heritage to go unchanged for another 100 years so our kids and grandkids can experience the same feelings as we’ve had, BUT, if that option doesnt exist you cannot stick your head under the pillow and just wish really hard that the world was the way you want it to be.
Children do that and children should stay in kindergarten whilst the adults deal with the real world. If true Evertonians want to be taken seriously in their position that the Kirkby move should be fought then they have to provide a genuinely viable alternative. It is, by this point, not enough to heckle or naysay...its time for something more constructive from the no lobby.
Problem is the same as it has been for years....that, simply, is NOT an option that we have. Everton Football Club CAN NOT stay at Goodison Park.
Even if the funds could be found to make the necessary reconstruction we would be tied up in planning authority red-tape beyond the point at which the Old Lady would be economically viable anyway. there is simply too much encroachment on the surrounding residential area. Even KEOIC have defacto accepted this with their pipe-dream of the ’Loop’.
This, unfortunately, is where the whole emotive thing falls down...its good to love the club, its good to want its heritage to go unchanged for another 100 years so our kids and grandkids can experience the same feelings as we’ve had, BUT, if that option doesnt exist you cannot stick your head under the pillow and just wish really hard that the world was the way you want it to be.
Children do that and children should stay in kindergarten whilst the adults deal with the real world. If true Evertonians want to be taken seriously in their position that the Kirkby move should be fought then they have to provide a genuinely viable alternative. It is, by this point, not enough to heckle or naysay...its time for something more constructive from the no lobby.
To quote Paul Ramsay - ’Lyndon i agree completely, and so to will every pure of heart evertonian with an ounce of sense and pride.’
That sounds suspiciously like you’re saying some Evertonians are more pure than others - in other words more of a REAL blue. You will be in for a final warning very soon me thinks...
That sounds suspiciously like you’re saying some Evertonians are more pure than others - in other words more of a REAL blue. You will be in for a final warning very soon me thinks...
Question to all of you who are against moving :
Do you all want to sit in the shadow of the new Kopite stadium ?
Because if we do not move you WILL, and they will be laughing forever more at us.....Wake up to the 21st century.
Do you all want to sit in the shadow of the new Kopite stadium ?
Because if we do not move you WILL, and they will be laughing forever more at us.....Wake up to the 21st century.
Greg Murphy,
I am of the view that EFC are merely progressing the outcome of the vote by releasing more information on the topic.
But in my opinion, and illustrated by the length of this chain, Lyndon has started the whole ?FOR? and ?AGAINST? dialogue.
I can remember a universal EFC fan view being that once the vote was taken and the decision made then we should just move-on.
Resurrecting the subject is not moving-on. Mind you everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, I was hopeful that the painful period prior to the vote was behind us.
What about that Cahill goal on Sunday, didn?t it just make you remember the 80s when we never gave up and always threatened the goal? That?s what I want the future to be.
I am of the view that EFC are merely progressing the outcome of the vote by releasing more information on the topic.
But in my opinion, and illustrated by the length of this chain, Lyndon has started the whole ?FOR? and ?AGAINST? dialogue.
I can remember a universal EFC fan view being that once the vote was taken and the decision made then we should just move-on.
Resurrecting the subject is not moving-on. Mind you everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, I was hopeful that the painful period prior to the vote was behind us.
What about that Cahill goal on Sunday, didn?t it just make you remember the 80s when we never gave up and always threatened the goal? That?s what I want the future to be.
The bottom line on this is that the club has been trying for years to convince us that shit is cheese and they have convinced enough of us to win what to me was a seriously flawed ballot. 15,000 people deciding the future of a club that expects to fill 50,000 seats every week doesn’t make a lot of sense and there would be outrage from the Tear Down Goodison enthusiasts if that result was the other way around. A lot of nonsense is talked about our misty-eyed emotional attachments to Goodison as if that was the only argument against leaving Liverpool to make Kirkby the smallest town in England with a Premier League team. The fiscal arguments against moving out of a major metropolitan area to a peripheral site are actually very sound. I may be in denial, but I still believe there are many ways for the club to screw this project up and there is still a good chance it won’t happen. After all, can an organization that can’t handle ticketing for two consecutive home games really pull this off?
"There are those who will accept anything the club does, who support them blindly, and will continue to fork over their money.
And there are those who won?t. It only needed 15,000 of the former to vote by rote, while the more thoughtful ones struggled with what is to my mind an extremely difficult question. Your simple approach to the problem helps me understand that a lot better. Thanks!"
Michael, is it at all possible that many of those who voted yes also thought long and hard about the decision, looked at all the informaton available and still thought the idea was worth supporting? Or is it easier for you just to brand those who didn’t vote no as sheep?
You keep going on about respecting all viewpoints on here, then come out with the above statement. Kind of makes it tough to take any of your sermonizing seriously.
And there are those who won?t. It only needed 15,000 of the former to vote by rote, while the more thoughtful ones struggled with what is to my mind an extremely difficult question. Your simple approach to the problem helps me understand that a lot better. Thanks!"
Michael, is it at all possible that many of those who voted yes also thought long and hard about the decision, looked at all the informaton available and still thought the idea was worth supporting? Or is it easier for you just to brand those who didn’t vote no as sheep?
You keep going on about respecting all viewpoints on here, then come out with the above statement. Kind of makes it tough to take any of your sermonizing seriously.
You don’t have to go to far back in our history to realise we could have been relegated to what is now the championship. Where we would have been now is pure speculation. Leeds are still pulling in 30,000 plus in the old third division so you can go down even with our massive support. When I go to the game I watch eleven players in blue shirts hopefully giving their all, we have still had no success since 1995. I want to see us in the Champions League every season. If that means moving to Kirkby and having millions to spend on world class players, then bring it on. We need to move to become attractive to new investors. Or shall we stay where we are and just moan like fuck every week about how shite we are?
Kevin, in all seriousness, please explain to me how moving to Kirkby translates into having millions to spend on players and winning trophies? If that really is the choice, then I would move to Kirkby myself and help them build the damn thing. It seems to me that there is NO connection between moving out of Liverpool and having more money to spend on players and far from being a financial bonanza, it could just as easily be a financial albatross
Right Michael, only those that voted NO thought about their decision. The Yes voters all just marked yes without even a thought. You lot are pathetic sometimes. You spout off to respect everyones opinion, but then turn around and basically call everyone who has a different opinion to yours sheep. You lot can piss off.
Chris - I am against any of the bitterness and vitiolic name calling whether it is from those who voted Yes or those who are opposed to the move.
Basically I am not satisfied that the possibility of redeveloping Goodison has been properly looked into. Personally I think the comments our CEO re the matter of the club investigating plans to redevelop Goodison as half hearted.
I have to say I was not too impressed by the "there is no alternative" line that Mr Wyness was giving us at the time of the vote.
If there is no alternative fine - but I don’t believe that we have adequately looked at the alternatives.
One thing I would ask in addition to a bit less bitterness - please don’t refer to our ground as a dump/shithole etc.it’s none of those things.
I read a crticism of Goodison from a West Brom fan - refering to parts of the ground as being wooden - personally I would rather parts of the stadium to be wooden than parts of the team!!
Basically I am not satisfied that the possibility of redeveloping Goodison has been properly looked into. Personally I think the comments our CEO re the matter of the club investigating plans to redevelop Goodison as half hearted.
I have to say I was not too impressed by the "there is no alternative" line that Mr Wyness was giving us at the time of the vote.
If there is no alternative fine - but I don’t believe that we have adequately looked at the alternatives.
One thing I would ask in addition to a bit less bitterness - please don’t refer to our ground as a dump/shithole etc.it’s none of those things.
I read a crticism of Goodison from a West Brom fan - refering to parts of the ground as being wooden - personally I would rather parts of the stadium to be wooden than parts of the team!!
Peter, Don’t you think some foreign investor will find us an attractive business proposition if we have just built a new stadium? It is not about Liverpool or Kirkby for some fat Russian billionaire. I firmly believe that in 7-10 years we can be back where we rightfully belong, at the top of English football, with our support we deserve it, not the shite we have been watching the last twenty years.
nightmare. wake me up.
Andy shaw
We’ll be in the shadow of a big f**K off tesco it does’nt get any worse than that, thats why were a laughing stock, id rather be in the shadow of a football stadium than a supermarket.
We’ll be in the shadow of a big f**K off tesco it does’nt get any worse than that, thats why were a laughing stock, id rather be in the shadow of a football stadium than a supermarket.
I think apart from being stitched up by LCC we are being stitched up by our own board here. OK so "we" voted for yes in the ballot, but the "vote yes" campaign from the board was appallingly indiscreet and fear-focussed and undoubtedly swayed the vote from "No" to "Yes".
Yes we need to upgrade our facilities, no we absolutely do NOT need to sell out to the first corporate vulture. There has to be a solution - Liverpool is being rebuilt, there is derelict land all over it that could be "re-developed", investment is pouring in, city of culture etc etc and we are leaving it to go to Kirkby. How can that make business sense?
Funny how the link to the promo video no longer works. Perhaps those at EFC "monitoring toffeeweb" have realised it’s doing their case more harm than good. Anyone know how we can get it onto youtube?!
Yes we need to upgrade our facilities, no we absolutely do NOT need to sell out to the first corporate vulture. There has to be a solution - Liverpool is being rebuilt, there is derelict land all over it that could be "re-developed", investment is pouring in, city of culture etc etc and we are leaving it to go to Kirkby. How can that make business sense?
Funny how the link to the promo video no longer works. Perhaps those at EFC "monitoring toffeeweb" have realised it’s doing their case more harm than good. Anyone know how we can get it onto youtube?!
Horrible, Horrible, Horrible.
Surely the ballot result might have been somewhat different if these pictures had been released prior to the vote being taken.
Surely the ballot result might have been somewhat different if these pictures had been released prior to the vote being taken.
Paul,
You said:
---------------------------------------------
Yes we need to upgrade our facilities, no we absolutely do NOT need to sell out to the first corporate vulture. There has to be a solution - Liverpool is being rebuilt, there is derelict land all over it that could be "re-developed", investment is pouring in, city of culture etc etc and we are leaving it to go to Kirkby.
-----------------------------------------------
This is entirely the problem...this is NOT the first corporate vulture its been going on since before the Kings Dock fiasco. Also there really isn’t derelict land ’all over’ suitable for the purposes of building a 55,000 seater stadium on.
We’ve been looking for years and the Red scum have been doing the same....both clubs have been offered the same sites and both have determined that they were crap. They got license to build on Stanley Park and we didnt...there’s no point whinging about that now either cos it helps no-one.
Fact is, despite YEARS of going through this, not one acceptable, practical, viable and affordable site has been proposed that has offered a solution within the city. No matter how many bleat and whinge about the sad state of affairs that has brought us to this point that fact remains.
Its time for the naysayers to either shit or get off the potty!.
You said:
---------------------------------------------
Yes we need to upgrade our facilities, no we absolutely do NOT need to sell out to the first corporate vulture. There has to be a solution - Liverpool is being rebuilt, there is derelict land all over it that could be "re-developed", investment is pouring in, city of culture etc etc and we are leaving it to go to Kirkby.
-----------------------------------------------
This is entirely the problem...this is NOT the first corporate vulture its been going on since before the Kings Dock fiasco. Also there really isn’t derelict land ’all over’ suitable for the purposes of building a 55,000 seater stadium on.
We’ve been looking for years and the Red scum have been doing the same....both clubs have been offered the same sites and both have determined that they were crap. They got license to build on Stanley Park and we didnt...there’s no point whinging about that now either cos it helps no-one.
Fact is, despite YEARS of going through this, not one acceptable, practical, viable and affordable site has been proposed that has offered a solution within the city. No matter how many bleat and whinge about the sad state of affairs that has brought us to this point that fact remains.
Its time for the naysayers to either shit or get off the potty!.
I asked at the time when all the pro-movers were stating their arguments, and claiming that they had thought it all through....... What will be the cost of Kirkby to EFC? What is the cost of redevelopment? What is the cost of the Loop? I could have expanded it further and asked: What are the benefits of each, and how do they compare, what of the transport issues, the change in perception>....etc etc! But I kept it simple without imponderables since it was the cost thing that seemed to be sealing it for so many. These people stated categorically that they had thought it all through and were fully informed (they still are in this thread), yet NONE could answer ANY of these fundamental questions at all!!! You cannot say you thought it through and were informed yet not answer all these questions and more. Check back in the archives if you don’t believe me. I asked it repeatedly. NOW, and only now we’re being told that Kirkby will cost EFC at least £50m, more likely £80m+, before the ballot it was "practically nothing" according KW. Now, I’m not being funny, but where has this money magically come from when we were told that redevelopment was "not deliverable" because we had no cash? Does this still tally with those who thought it all through? How can it? LCC planning department have said that there is nothing of any substance to restrict planning permission for redevelopment of GP. This amount of money could do great things at our historic home..... with zero effects to our history and identity, and without the disenchantment of a large proportion of our support, so how can anyone still say Kirkby is the only option? It seems the problem is too many fell for the hardsell, and still don’t want to admit it. I don’t blame a proportion of people for falling for it because they were only given one option. But to watch this unravel and still think it’s the only choice is beyond reason.
Terry..... Maybe I should explain the delights of Kirkby in comparison to Walton for you to understand. Simple really...... Kirkby has NONE!
Walton has dozens of pubs, cafes, chippies etc, and millions of hours of Evertonian memories wrapped in its fabric. It has 10 times tha public transport capacity of Kirkby. It is a 10 minute ride to town and all its amenities, and major transport hubs and networks. That is why Grosvenor et al are spending Literally billions on central Liverpool and not trying to displace it to Kirkby, because the vast majority of Merseyside’s residents have a direct bus/train route to it. Hardly any Merseyside districts are directly connected to Kirkby by bus or train. I live in South Liverpool, and I would argue just as vehemently against Speke for the same reasons, and I could walk there.
Walton has dozens of pubs, cafes, chippies etc, and millions of hours of Evertonian memories wrapped in its fabric. It has 10 times tha public transport capacity of Kirkby. It is a 10 minute ride to town and all its amenities, and major transport hubs and networks. That is why Grosvenor et al are spending Literally billions on central Liverpool and not trying to displace it to Kirkby, because the vast majority of Merseyside’s residents have a direct bus/train route to it. Hardly any Merseyside districts are directly connected to Kirkby by bus or train. I live in South Liverpool, and I would argue just as vehemently against Speke for the same reasons, and I could walk there.
Tom Hughes
You make me laugh when you say the majority have " have fallen for it" as though we who voted to move are somehow less intelligent than your good self. You are no doubt very well informed on this matter, but if in a few years you are sitting in the new ground with 50,000 fanatical blues, with a chance of the Premiership title, you may eat your words.
You make me laugh when you say the majority have " have fallen for it" as though we who voted to move are somehow less intelligent than your good self. You are no doubt very well informed on this matter, but if in a few years you are sitting in the new ground with 50,000 fanatical blues, with a chance of the Premiership title, you may eat your words.
Steve Jones,
I’m not a whinger or a naysayer, I want the best for the club. In the city or not. It’s not that it’s Kirkby it’s just that it is crap.
I happen to think that a more capable Board of Directors/Chairman could have done better.
Let’s face it they have a lot to work with. Everton is one of the "biggest" clubs, with one of the top 10 fan-bases in the most popular and lucrative football league in the world. It has a rich, successful heritage. It is located in a city which markets it’s football club heritage as a key part of it’s "tourism portfolio" and is undergoing massive redevelopment and investment (and government funding). Yet they still can’t do any better than a few million help from Tesco and a cheap, tin-pot identi-dome in the car-park of a generic retail park.
I can’t believe there aren’t people with money to spend who could do better. I don’t want us to be taken over by some American but surely somebody can market all that the club can offer and get us a better deal.
I’m not a whinger or a naysayer, I want the best for the club. In the city or not. It’s not that it’s Kirkby it’s just that it is crap.
I happen to think that a more capable Board of Directors/Chairman could have done better.
Let’s face it they have a lot to work with. Everton is one of the "biggest" clubs, with one of the top 10 fan-bases in the most popular and lucrative football league in the world. It has a rich, successful heritage. It is located in a city which markets it’s football club heritage as a key part of it’s "tourism portfolio" and is undergoing massive redevelopment and investment (and government funding). Yet they still can’t do any better than a few million help from Tesco and a cheap, tin-pot identi-dome in the car-park of a generic retail park.
I can’t believe there aren’t people with money to spend who could do better. I don’t want us to be taken over by some American but surely somebody can market all that the club can offer and get us a better deal.
Tom
"LCC planning department have said that there is nothing of any substance to restrict planning permission for redevelopment of GP."
Of course there isnt anything of substance yet because no moves have been made to to gain planning permission to redevelop Goodison!. Thats just spin.
"This amount of money could do great things at our historic home..... with zero effects to our history and identity, and without the disenchantment of a large proportion of our support, so how can anyone still say Kirkby is the only option?"
...because redeveloping Goodison is not feasible within its existing footprint something at least two reports have independently verified - the first commissioned at the time of Kings Dock as an alternate option.
For the rest of the reasoning why, as things stand there are NO other options, there has been NO site identified within the city as suitable. Not one and this Loop thing is the biggest joke I’ve ever seen!.
Now you may want to obfuscate the issue by engaging in this conspiracy theory bollocks that various personalities have vested interests in seeing us in Kirkby, but, its not only EFC who’ve rejected these sites but LFC as well. If those sites aren’t good enough for the RS what makes them good enough for us?.
As to the funding and the finance...yes those facts are very illuminating...and pointless. The fact is that Goodison is rapidly becoming a liability. The fact is that, barring a minor miracle, its not feasible to redevelop on that land. The fact is that we need a new stadium and the fact is that two Premier league clubs have now rejected the alternate sites proposed by LCC.
Your other option is?. You could get 40,000 fans to stump up 3 grand each and get the club to round out to £150 million I guess. Good luck!
"LCC planning department have said that there is nothing of any substance to restrict planning permission for redevelopment of GP."
Of course there isnt anything of substance yet because no moves have been made to to gain planning permission to redevelop Goodison!. Thats just spin.
"This amount of money could do great things at our historic home..... with zero effects to our history and identity, and without the disenchantment of a large proportion of our support, so how can anyone still say Kirkby is the only option?"
...because redeveloping Goodison is not feasible within its existing footprint something at least two reports have independently verified - the first commissioned at the time of Kings Dock as an alternate option.
For the rest of the reasoning why, as things stand there are NO other options, there has been NO site identified within the city as suitable. Not one and this Loop thing is the biggest joke I’ve ever seen!.
Now you may want to obfuscate the issue by engaging in this conspiracy theory bollocks that various personalities have vested interests in seeing us in Kirkby, but, its not only EFC who’ve rejected these sites but LFC as well. If those sites aren’t good enough for the RS what makes them good enough for us?.
As to the funding and the finance...yes those facts are very illuminating...and pointless. The fact is that Goodison is rapidly becoming a liability. The fact is that, barring a minor miracle, its not feasible to redevelop on that land. The fact is that we need a new stadium and the fact is that two Premier league clubs have now rejected the alternate sites proposed by LCC.
Your other option is?. You could get 40,000 fans to stump up 3 grand each and get the club to round out to £150 million I guess. Good luck!
Kevin,
I don’t think it’s a laughing matter actually, but there you go. This is the entire future of our football club. Fact is, I’m desperate to see a plus side to moving to Kirkby, and I’m desperate to even see something good in the stadium design, but I can’t. I’m not questioning anyone’s intelligence, just posed a few questions. Have a go at me if you like, but make sure you at least attempt to answer the question to prove you haven’t "fallen for it!!" BTW, What part of challenging for the premiership is exclusive to Kirkby?
I don’t think it’s a laughing matter actually, but there you go. This is the entire future of our football club. Fact is, I’m desperate to see a plus side to moving to Kirkby, and I’m desperate to even see something good in the stadium design, but I can’t. I’m not questioning anyone’s intelligence, just posed a few questions. Have a go at me if you like, but make sure you at least attempt to answer the question to prove you haven’t "fallen for it!!" BTW, What part of challenging for the premiership is exclusive to Kirkby?
why dont you moaning no voters put your silk scarfs down your legs, tie your woolie scarfs around your wrists and go and watch your bob latchford videos and let the rest if us get on with progress
Paul,
"I happen to think that a more capable Board of Directors/Chairman could have done better."
Might suprise you to know I agree with you!. there was a very good article on here about the refinancing we took out around Kings Dock time and, if we’d taken on about £30 mill more then, we’d have been in the Kings Dock and laughing!.
Point is though saying that means nothing now. We are in the situation we’re in. Getting rid of the board now might make a lot of people feel better...but...it makes no difference to the stadium issue. Goodison is still unviable without an upgrade we can’t afford and may not get through even if we could.
"I can?t believe there aren?t people with money to spend who could do better. I don?t want us to be taken over by some American but surely somebody can market all that the club can offer and get us a better deal."
Same thing. Maybe there are people to blame for the limited investment EFC has had, we’ll never be able to prove it without someone blowing the whistle from the inside, fact is that no-one has come forward and no-one is likely to for the smaller team in a city that needs £150 million spending on a new ground and has to compete as a brand with the RS. Fact!.
"I happen to think that a more capable Board of Directors/Chairman could have done better."
Might suprise you to know I agree with you!. there was a very good article on here about the refinancing we took out around Kings Dock time and, if we’d taken on about £30 mill more then, we’d have been in the Kings Dock and laughing!.
Point is though saying that means nothing now. We are in the situation we’re in. Getting rid of the board now might make a lot of people feel better...but...it makes no difference to the stadium issue. Goodison is still unviable without an upgrade we can’t afford and may not get through even if we could.
"I can?t believe there aren?t people with money to spend who could do better. I don?t want us to be taken over by some American but surely somebody can market all that the club can offer and get us a better deal."
Same thing. Maybe there are people to blame for the limited investment EFC has had, we’ll never be able to prove it without someone blowing the whistle from the inside, fact is that no-one has come forward and no-one is likely to for the smaller team in a city that needs £150 million spending on a new ground and has to compete as a brand with the RS. Fact!.
Paul Sullivan - Yep, I can’t get any of the links to work either (at 5.23pm - keeping getting message 404). Really curious.
"Of course there isnt anything of substance yet because no moves have been made to to gain planning permission to redevelop Goodison!. Thats just spin."
The planning office does not need an application to anounce that there are no significant planning restraints, they simply looked at the site, and stated the obvious.
"...because redeveloping Goodison is not feasible within its existing footprint something at least two reports have independently verified - the first commissioned at the time of Kings Dock as an alternate option."
Sorry to disappoint, but there are no such reports. There has never been a full feasibility study carried out by the club. I am a shareholder and as such have asked to see them..... they simply don?t exist. Meanwhile, I completed full concept plans based on the existing site, as has Trevor Skempton. Mine were created using full site plans and are to scale...... basically scale drawings disprove your assertion.
"For the rest of the reasoning why, as things stand there are NO other options, there has been NO site identified within the city as suitable. Not one and this Loop thing is the biggest joke I?ve ever seen!."
Is "biggest Joke" a technical term based on full engineered assessment of that site? HOK the biggest stadium design company in the world would beg to differ I?m affraid.
"As to the funding and the finance...yes those facts are very illuminating...and pointless. The fact is that Goodison is rapidly becoming a liability. The fact is that, barring a minor miracle, its not feasible to redevelop on that land. The fact is that we need a new stadium and the fact is that two Premier league clubs have now rejected the alternate sites proposed by LCC."
I?m sorry, I can?t make it any more simple than: before Kirkby was supposed to cost us "practically nothing", now it could cost us £80m. Have you any idea what that could do for us at GP? If not, you really cannot say Kirkby is the ONLY option
"Your other option is?. You could get 40,000 fans to stump up 3 grand each and get the club to round out to £150 million I guess. Good luck!"
Where have I said that? Does the same apply to finding £80m for Kirkby, or have you got that stashed?
Tom,
So the Liverpool County Council planning office staff are so prescient that they can predict public opposition without recourse to public consultation...impressive.
We could never do that in Wirral Borough Council...we always had to do these tedious things like advertising planning requests etc to ensure there would be no opposition. I think you’ll find that LCC’s comments on this one may need to be examined under the light of actual planning legislation.
"Sorry to disappoint, but there are no such reports. There has never been a full feasibility study carried out by the club."
One report was even online that detailed the extent of the encroachment on the neighbouring school and residential area. Admittedly its been a while since I studied the building regs and planning legislation, but, it seemed fairly comprehensive.
"Meanwhile, I completed full concept plans based on the existing site, as has Trevor Skempton. Mine were created using full site plans and are to scale...... basically scale drawings disprove your assertion."
You have managed to fit 55,000 into the same stadium footprint, without raising the stands roofline and affecting the environmental conditions of the neighbouring residential area?. You developed a traffic plan to accomodate the additional 15,000 people and their vehicles. I am impressed!. Is this available for evaluation anywhere?.
"I?m sorry, I can?t make it any more simple than: before Kirkby was supposed to cost us "practically nothing", now it could cost us £80m. Have you any idea what that could do for us at GP? If not, you really cannot say Kirkby is the ONLY option"
So essentially your alternate option is to redevelop Goodison and thats that?. Despite the fact that the club has rejected that option twice...despite the fact it WOULD be the cheapest option if feasible?.
OK.
So the Liverpool County Council planning office staff are so prescient that they can predict public opposition without recourse to public consultation...impressive.
We could never do that in Wirral Borough Council...we always had to do these tedious things like advertising planning requests etc to ensure there would be no opposition. I think you’ll find that LCC’s comments on this one may need to be examined under the light of actual planning legislation.
"Sorry to disappoint, but there are no such reports. There has never been a full feasibility study carried out by the club."
One report was even online that detailed the extent of the encroachment on the neighbouring school and residential area. Admittedly its been a while since I studied the building regs and planning legislation, but, it seemed fairly comprehensive.
"Meanwhile, I completed full concept plans based on the existing site, as has Trevor Skempton. Mine were created using full site plans and are to scale...... basically scale drawings disprove your assertion."
You have managed to fit 55,000 into the same stadium footprint, without raising the stands roofline and affecting the environmental conditions of the neighbouring residential area?. You developed a traffic plan to accomodate the additional 15,000 people and their vehicles. I am impressed!. Is this available for evaluation anywhere?.
"I?m sorry, I can?t make it any more simple than: before Kirkby was supposed to cost us "practically nothing", now it could cost us £80m. Have you any idea what that could do for us at GP? If not, you really cannot say Kirkby is the ONLY option"
So essentially your alternate option is to redevelop Goodison and thats that?. Despite the fact that the club has rejected that option twice...despite the fact it WOULD be the cheapest option if feasible?.
OK.
Tony Williams you carry on following them then that’s up to you. Me, if we go to Kirkby it won’t be the Everton I know and it won’t be the same Football club anymore. I’ve been following them for nearly 50 years but I tell ya this, the club as a whole can Kiss my ar*e!!! If we do leave the city this will be the biggest disaster and the biggest p*ss take ever of our great club I will never ever set foot in that Cheap, Lego set lookin stadium in my life and by the way I know a lot of people who feel the same. Ask yourself this would club’s like Celtic, Rangers, Spurs, Arsenal(moved 2 mins up the road) even I hate 2 admit this the RS (moving a stone’s throw away) Man Utd would they consider up-rooting and relocating somewhere else??? Would they f*ck and I’ll tell ya why their fans wouldn’t have it!!! What does that tell ya about today’s Evertonian. HERITAGE, TRADITION, WE WERE IN THE f*CKIN CITY 1st obviously means f*ck all nowadays. Very disapointing to say the least.
Removed; user banned - MK
Andy Mckenzie
you must be a kopite to make a remark like that.....
Jay
"HERITAGE, TRADITION, WE WERE IN THE f*CKIN CITY 1st obviously means f*ck all nowadays"
You do understand that Heritage, tradition and the fact that we were in the city first DOES MEAN F*CK ALL dont you?.
You cant buy your Didier Drogba’s or Shaun Wright Phillips’s with heritage and tradition.
Talk to Leeds and Forest fans how much of their tradition they’d swap for Premiership football week-in-week out?!. Then ask a Chelsea fan if his clubs values are the same now with Abrahamovitch as before.
Lastly you talk to an old gooner about the Arsenal team of today incorporating the fewest British players of any top flight team and then compare what he says to what a young fan says about the same team. the old guy despairs about what his club has become...the young guy sees a team of winners winning. see the point?!
"HERITAGE, TRADITION, WE WERE IN THE f*CKIN CITY 1st obviously means f*ck all nowadays"
You do understand that Heritage, tradition and the fact that we were in the city first DOES MEAN F*CK ALL dont you?.
You cant buy your Didier Drogba’s or Shaun Wright Phillips’s with heritage and tradition.
Talk to Leeds and Forest fans how much of their tradition they’d swap for Premiership football week-in-week out?!. Then ask a Chelsea fan if his clubs values are the same now with Abrahamovitch as before.
Lastly you talk to an old gooner about the Arsenal team of today incorporating the fewest British players of any top flight team and then compare what he says to what a young fan says about the same team. the old guy despairs about what his club has become...the young guy sees a team of winners winning. see the point?!
We are moving on, that means on the pitch and off.
I don’t care where the team play I will follow the team EVERTON wherever they may end up playing.
I have followed Everton for forty years and the grand old lady Goodison Park is ready to be put to rest.
No more stinking toilets and crappy obstructed views. History thats all it is, forget the past and look to the future away from the dump we call home.
To the majority of moaners out there we know its only the local boozers you are worried about missing. "get a life"" get a taxi" its only 10 minutes up the road.
COYB.
I don’t care where the team play I will follow the team EVERTON wherever they may end up playing.
I have followed Everton for forty years and the grand old lady Goodison Park is ready to be put to rest.
No more stinking toilets and crappy obstructed views. History thats all it is, forget the past and look to the future away from the dump we call home.
To the majority of moaners out there we know its only the local boozers you are worried about missing. "get a life"" get a taxi" its only 10 minutes up the road.
COYB.
Steve:
LCC have seen the plans, as have architects and there was only one issue of light infringement with the plans as they stood. The footprint for the one option that was shown on various websites and in the Echo (there are several in the same package) included bridging Bullens Road and just over 1m into the carpark of the school (another stayed within the footprint on that side. No-one can exclude the prospect of objections etc, but general planning constraints are no more prohibitive at the current site than they are in say Kirkby...... How many houses/carehomes/schools are going to be affected? I can only speak about the option I worked on, so I’m not sure about "that being that" or whatever that’s supposed to mean, but the Loop is also far more appealing than KIrkby. As far as transport studies I find that quite a farcical statement considering the peripheral location of Kirkby. I worked there for 6 years and also worked on the merseytram design..... there is simply no comparison between Walton and Kirkby in terms of local transport capacities and networks. There never can be. LFC seem to have satisfied the planning department regarding transport issues for a 60,000 seater (with the prospect of 75,000) only a few hundred yards away so why wouldn’t our 50-55,000 seater? They are also paying for all the new infrastructure, which is nice of them. Meanwhile the initial transport sudies for Kirkby were particularly damning and prompted the club to flag up the prospect of pushing for trams to Kirkby. I ask again.... do you know what can be done at GP for £50-80m ? Because quite frankly everything else works there, it has done for over 100 years. No one can say the same for Kirkby.
LCC have seen the plans, as have architects and there was only one issue of light infringement with the plans as they stood. The footprint for the one option that was shown on various websites and in the Echo (there are several in the same package) included bridging Bullens Road and just over 1m into the carpark of the school (another stayed within the footprint on that side. No-one can exclude the prospect of objections etc, but general planning constraints are no more prohibitive at the current site than they are in say Kirkby...... How many houses/carehomes/schools are going to be affected? I can only speak about the option I worked on, so I’m not sure about "that being that" or whatever that’s supposed to mean, but the Loop is also far more appealing than KIrkby. As far as transport studies I find that quite a farcical statement considering the peripheral location of Kirkby. I worked there for 6 years and also worked on the merseytram design..... there is simply no comparison between Walton and Kirkby in terms of local transport capacities and networks. There never can be. LFC seem to have satisfied the planning department regarding transport issues for a 60,000 seater (with the prospect of 75,000) only a few hundred yards away so why wouldn’t our 50-55,000 seater? They are also paying for all the new infrastructure, which is nice of them. Meanwhile the initial transport sudies for Kirkby were particularly damning and prompted the club to flag up the prospect of pushing for trams to Kirkby. I ask again.... do you know what can be done at GP for £50-80m ? Because quite frankly everything else works there, it has done for over 100 years. No one can say the same for Kirkby.
i never will or never have been a kopite and find it quite annoying that people get labelled kopites, c**ts, or any other name under the sun, if you can?t respond to peoples post without calling them a kopite then don?t bother responding.
i can hear your wifes now o after the match luv will you bring me a bottle milk and a loaf in with you and dont be late theres no milk f--k off not me mate keioc forever
Tom,
"... but general planning constraints are no more prohibitive at the current site than they are in say Kirkby...... How many houses/carehomes/schools are going to be affected?"
Yep I agree with that you are dead right. The huge and glaring flaw with Kirkby is that it is far from the done deal that the top brass make it out to be.
Added to that now, thanks to the actions of a minority, we may get the worst of both worlds. A delay to a ground that was only really acceptable because it offered a ground in the timeframe we needed one.
" but the Loop is also far more appealing than KIrkby."
The Loop may be technically just about feasible by, by god, it is going to be expensive. Not just in initial aquisition either - in year on year costs maintaining the overflying infrastructure to DoT specs in face of huge vibration issues in, and around, the foundations are going to make the costs of running Goodison pale into insignificance!.
Then we get to the emergency access issues of having a stadium of 55,000 on a mutated roundabout!. Just the thought of the Loop as a site for a ground holding north of 50k people makes the civil engineer in me shudder.
The transport issues to Kirkby from the city are going to require some serious attention, but, the site does have the one advantage. It no longer obliges the many fans who come from the periphery of Liverpool to go into the city then get across to the ground. The traffic volume inside the city should actually drop, in the near term, as fans from farther afield go round the East Lancs or along the M57 and reduce the pressure.
"I ask again.... do you know what can be done at GP for £50-80m ? Because quite frankly everything else works there, it has done for over 100 years. No one can say the same for Kirkby."
Unfortunately whilst you cant say that Kirkby has ever sufficed as a venue for a stadium you cannot say that Goodison can be upgraded even if this £80 million you suggest the club is going to have to find can be reinvested.
"... but general planning constraints are no more prohibitive at the current site than they are in say Kirkby...... How many houses/carehomes/schools are going to be affected?"
Yep I agree with that you are dead right. The huge and glaring flaw with Kirkby is that it is far from the done deal that the top brass make it out to be.
Added to that now, thanks to the actions of a minority, we may get the worst of both worlds. A delay to a ground that was only really acceptable because it offered a ground in the timeframe we needed one.
" but the Loop is also far more appealing than KIrkby."
The Loop may be technically just about feasible by, by god, it is going to be expensive. Not just in initial aquisition either - in year on year costs maintaining the overflying infrastructure to DoT specs in face of huge vibration issues in, and around, the foundations are going to make the costs of running Goodison pale into insignificance!.
Then we get to the emergency access issues of having a stadium of 55,000 on a mutated roundabout!. Just the thought of the Loop as a site for a ground holding north of 50k people makes the civil engineer in me shudder.
The transport issues to Kirkby from the city are going to require some serious attention, but, the site does have the one advantage. It no longer obliges the many fans who come from the periphery of Liverpool to go into the city then get across to the ground. The traffic volume inside the city should actually drop, in the near term, as fans from farther afield go round the East Lancs or along the M57 and reduce the pressure.
"I ask again.... do you know what can be done at GP for £50-80m ? Because quite frankly everything else works there, it has done for over 100 years. No one can say the same for Kirkby."
Unfortunately whilst you cant say that Kirkby has ever sufficed as a venue for a stadium you cannot say that Goodison can be upgraded even if this £80 million you suggest the club is going to have to find can be reinvested.
Andy McKenzie: my way of looking at it is this: would I rather Liverpool get their superdome and we remain right under the noses to piss them off with the fact that we even exist? Coz we do. Fact. Or would I rather Liverpool get their superdome and we?re well out of their sight but instead right under the noses of a Tesco Extra?
There?s a very good reason why that banner of theirs at the Clattenburg derby read "Just Go".
If we have to endure some "shadow" existence (what?s new?) for a while longer then we?ll all have to decide how embarrassed we want to feel. Embarrassment is a state of mind. Rather than be embarrassed in the face of their franchise, I?d actually be defiant in the face of adversity and stand proud - which is what being a Blue in this city is all about. If and when we do have to leave the area then surely we have to leave it for something better on offer than this Tesco dross?
There?s a very good reason why that banner of theirs at the Clattenburg derby read "Just Go".
If we have to endure some "shadow" existence (what?s new?) for a while longer then we?ll all have to decide how embarrassed we want to feel. Embarrassment is a state of mind. Rather than be embarrassed in the face of their franchise, I?d actually be defiant in the face of adversity and stand proud - which is what being a Blue in this city is all about. If and when we do have to leave the area then surely we have to leave it for something better on offer than this Tesco dross?
Steve,
"The Loop may be technically just about feasible by, by god, it is going to be expensive. Not just in initial aquisition either - in year on year costs maintaining the overflying infrastructure to DoT specs in face of huge vibration issues in, and around, the foundations are going to make the costs of running Goodison pale into insignificance!."
All superstructure foundations will sit on solid ground, retaining walls need not be compromised given the size of the site which is actually bigger in stadium terms than the Emirates. The rest is a simple cut and cover exercise, without the need to do the "cut" since it is already there.
"Then we get to the emergency access issues of having a stadium of 55,000 on a mutated roundabout!. Just the thought of the Loop as a site for a ground holding north of 50k people makes the civil engineer in me shudder."
The Emirates also sits on an island in that it is bound by 2 railway lines, and is more physically isolated than the loop site which will be fully accessible from two full sides at least. The Millenium stadium is up against the river, and with tight city blocks on the remaining sides. I use these as 2 modern examples where loop-like issues have been resolved. There are a multitude of similarly confined modern stadia. Meanwhile Kirkby has only a limited access from the main conurbation and all its emergency services, with the major Hospital being as distant as it can be.
"The transport issues to Kirkby from the city are going to require some serious attention, but, the site does have the one advantage. It no longer obliges the many fans who come from the periphery of Liverpool to go into the city then get across to the ground. The traffic volume inside the city should actually drop, in the near term, as fans from farther afield go round the East Lancs or along the M57 and reduce the pressure. "
This is true, externally based fans will be able to skirt around the city, but I believe the club’s support is more locally based than any other major club. Therefore the majority of matchgoing fans will have to channel through the seriously limited number of routes out to Kirkby and back, whereas at present they travel to Walton from all directions, and Walton lies on the confluence of several arterial road, bus and rail routes, as well as being adjacent to the inner ring road.
"Unfortunately whilst you cant say that Kirkby has ever sufficed as a venue for a stadium you cannot say that Goodison can be upgraded even if this £80 million you suggest the club is going to have to find can be reinvested"
If the cash is available then surely you can redevelop. If LFC can build on a listed Victorian Park, if Tesco can flatten dozens of homes/school/care home etc.
Actually, I didn’t suggest anything. Wyness recently stated that the costs to the club will be a minimum of £50m at a shareholders meeting. Further querries have revealed an £80m+ cost and this was supposed to cost us next to nowt!!!
And so round and round we go. The same arguments, the same polarised positions. We can stay at Goodison continuing to attract 30000+ crowds, the same old faces, a few new ones every season but basically no real headway and all the while the old lady is getting older and sadder. The immediate environs no better either, shuttered shops and seedy pubs. I have been going to games for decades but I doubt that I would find the above very attractive if I was arriving at Goodison for my first game now. Quite simply people expect more from their day out and I don?t blame them.
So...what are we to do ? Or more importantly what is Blue Bill going to do. I don?t blame him or the board for deciding on a ground move. It is clear from even the most rudimentary sketches that the Kirby stadium is less than a grand design but it is better than Goodison Park. Goodison has only one thing going for it, the history that seeps from every crack in its sorry facade. So if the move takes place it will then be up to every player,fan and board member to make sure we fill the new stadium with new epic tales of sadness and glory.
So...what are we to do ? Or more importantly what is Blue Bill going to do. I don?t blame him or the board for deciding on a ground move. It is clear from even the most rudimentary sketches that the Kirby stadium is less than a grand design but it is better than Goodison Park. Goodison has only one thing going for it, the history that seeps from every crack in its sorry facade. So if the move takes place it will then be up to every player,fan and board member to make sure we fill the new stadium with new epic tales of sadness and glory.
Hope all you yes voters are squirming in your seats today having watched the latest marketing gimmicks from EFC and its board...
its gonna be cheap... its gonna be souless...
Nil satis nisi optimum... i got it tattoed on my body... pity the Board of EFC didnt think its meaning before selling out to Tesco and it second rate plan...
shame on all you yes voters....
KEIOC
its gonna be cheap... its gonna be souless...
Nil satis nisi optimum... i got it tattoed on my body... pity the Board of EFC didnt think its meaning before selling out to Tesco and it second rate plan...
shame on all you yes voters....
KEIOC
Excellent article. The pictures of that supermarket next to somewhere we may have to call home makes me sick beyond belief. How can, anyone consider moving outside the city on the eve of the capital of culture, the massive regeneration project within the city centre, but Everton will. It has been prooved that a stadium will fit on the loop site, a site which overlooks the mersey & the city centre, the district of Everton, a site that will bring in vast amounts of revenue from other events other than football. A site that is within our heritage as it is in the district from where we were formed 129 years ago.
There is no co-incidence that Kenwright, Wyness etc wont look for investment, as the share prices will drastically increase once a new home has been built. And what do you think will happen once the home is built? The club will be sold, just like the fans who will be watching their team on an industrial estate whilst the reds continue to prosper as a one team city during the regeneration for the captial of culture.
There is no co-incidence that Kenwright, Wyness etc wont look for investment, as the share prices will drastically increase once a new home has been built. And what do you think will happen once the home is built? The club will be sold, just like the fans who will be watching their team on an industrial estate whilst the reds continue to prosper as a one team city during the regeneration for the captial of culture.
Steve,
I never said sack the board I’m just questioning what they’ve done.
I never said sack the board I’m just questioning what they’ve done.
"but I think what you espouse in that one statement actually says far more about a fundamental diference among Evertonians, and you see it in any gathering. There are those who will accept anything the club does, who support them blindly, and will continue to fork over their money."
Of course I will support them blindly, it is Everton and it has been in my soul for over 30 years.
To me it is about and has only ever been about the football, nothing else. I don’t want to argue politics about imaginary boundaries, blag loopy sites and my personal favourite "The souless bowl", Do you know what would make it souless? The fans, or lack of because some don’t want to go to a different post code.
I will follow Everton - The football team until my dying day and if you want to try and win points and say I am a sheep, well so be it, I will not lose any sleep over it. I will simply go and watch the team I love play football and God willing enjoy it.
Baaaa
Of course I will support them blindly, it is Everton and it has been in my soul for over 30 years.
To me it is about and has only ever been about the football, nothing else. I don’t want to argue politics about imaginary boundaries, blag loopy sites and my personal favourite "The souless bowl", Do you know what would make it souless? The fans, or lack of because some don’t want to go to a different post code.
I will follow Everton - The football team until my dying day and if you want to try and win points and say I am a sheep, well so be it, I will not lose any sleep over it. I will simply go and watch the team I love play football and God willing enjoy it.
Baaaa
Elwood,
It’s not the same arguments going round and round at all...... Wyness himself has now admitted that Kirkby will cost the club at least £50m. This is a completely different scenario to the one balloted on. The other issues remain regarding identity/history and tradition, but the whole deliverability goal posts have been moved significantly. This basic admission necessitates a reassessment of the "options", by definition it in no way agrees with the notion of a "NO PLAN B"! As far as being an attractive option even Blue bill exclaimed its beauty only the other day. Most clubs have redeveloped rather than moved, so there must be some attraction. I am sure most of your aspirations can still be satisfied in L4, and certainly more so in the capital of culture, than in some overspill estate.
It’s not the same arguments going round and round at all...... Wyness himself has now admitted that Kirkby will cost the club at least £50m. This is a completely different scenario to the one balloted on. The other issues remain regarding identity/history and tradition, but the whole deliverability goal posts have been moved significantly. This basic admission necessitates a reassessment of the "options", by definition it in no way agrees with the notion of a "NO PLAN B"! As far as being an attractive option even Blue bill exclaimed its beauty only the other day. Most clubs have redeveloped rather than moved, so there must be some attraction. I am sure most of your aspirations can still be satisfied in L4, and certainly more so in the capital of culture, than in some overspill estate.
Trevor Wroughton: "The major problem with that is simple. Any new stadium - even one built on the much-talked about ?Loop? - would NOT be ?the Everton you love?. We are going to lose all that in any move, to whatever destination. It?s called progress."
But Trevor, we could still move and build a stadium that is desiged and located in environs that are in accordance with both the club?s traditions and our famous old motto. Of course, leaving Goodison to any new ground will change the character of the match-going experience but ? and I realise we are talking about vastly different budgets here ? I think most fans would agree that Arsenal?s move was successful within those parameters.
Similarly, the Kings Dock project was, in my opinion, befitting ?the Everton I love? ? a world-class stadium in a world-class location, an improvement on Goodison rather than a backwards step six miles further away from town on the arse-end of a Tesco superstore.
I realise that we are in a beggars-can?t-be-choosers situation here because of the financial realities under the current Board but the reason why bring all this up again is because the ignominy of being beholden to a supermarket chain has been compounded by the fact that rather than being completely separate from the proposed Tesco, either by a dividing berm, tall hedge, wall or even a row of trees, the new stadium is going to be plonked right there in a flipping shopping precinct. That was not in the artist?s renderings in the brochure and it was not how the layout looked in the initial overhead plans that were first shown to Kirkby residents earlier this year.
"You said ?Bill Kenwright?s silence on the issue indicated that he knows it? - incorrect. There was a series of video blogs from Kenwright on the official site during the summer, pushing the idea of the new stadium, with him giving his total support to the plans."
As far as I recall (and I?m happy to be corrected) the Official Site showed one Kenwright interview a couple of days before the ballot was due to close, by which time the Board knew which way the vote had gone as they were being given vague indications by the Electoral Reform Society. I remember there being regular criticism on the web forums that Kenwright was being completely silent and letting Wyness drive the train at a time when the fanbase was at verbal war with itself.
Steve Hogan: "Any future development regarding any potential ground move to any location would have involved some sort of retail partnership, even the Kings Dock."
Steve, there?s a difference between there being a "retail partnership" as an financial enabler for our stadium and us looking like an after-thought to a Tesco-driven retail park. There doesn?t appear to have been any attempt made to visually separate the stadium from the rest of the development, to give our new home some kind of identity of its own.
John Sheron: "Thanks for stoking-up the stadium debate just when we were starting to acknowledge the decision"
John, if this Kirkby move is going to happen come hell or high water, should the fans not have a voice in making sure that the best is made from a less than optimal situation and that if we feel that these new artists?s impressions are not acceptable that they should know about it?
I know there were plenty of people who voted "No" but were prepared to accept the decision and then work to make sure that we ended up with the best stadium we could. If you think that those who don?t like what we?re being shown should just keep quiet and just deal with whatever ends up being built to keep the peace then think you?re doing a massive disservice to those fans and the club in general.
Patty Beasley: Now look what you have done Lyndon... the great stadium debate has kicked off again all because of you."
Yes, it?s all my fault, Patty. I released those new artist renderings that revealed the true location of the proposed stadium as opposed to the night-time impressions that made every voting fan think that the stadium for which they were voting would at least be surrounded by car parks, not juxtapositioned right next to Tesco.
Silly me, I should just accept that while we?re getting back to a "big five" club on the pitch, we?re on a par with Reading and Coventry City when it comes to our stadium. Nil Satis...?
People, this whole debate is no longer about voting Yes or No, it is about ensuring that we get the best stadium possible wherever we go. You can still be critical of the plans even if you voted for the Kirkby move. It?s called "people power" and seeing as you?re going to have go there and send your hard-earned dough 20-odd times a year, wouldn?t you want the club to listen if you didn?t like what was on offer?
People shocked and saying we are "selling out to Tesco". This is the current state of football, not just Everton. The biggest name on our jersey is fucking Chang, not Everton. This is the way it is today, get use to it or stop watching football because it aint changing. Look around Arsenal’s new stadium and what do you see, Emirates. Did they sell their souls, is it the end of Arsenal? Well, maybe it is the end of what you use to know or want it to be but that is the way all of football is. You want big name players that cost a lot of money so where do you think that money will come from. Theirs a fucking post in the mailbag saying to buy a DVD from an outside source instead of the club because it will cost a few pounds less. You don’t want to pay higher ticket prices, don’t want to get into a corporate sponsorship, but want all the financial reward that comes with those things.
Well you can’t have it both ways. If you want a pure club for the fans and no corporate welfare then go support a Division 3 side because you sure as hell will not find it in the Premiership. Everton were once great, but that was a long time ago. The team is just now starting to look good again but without the financial assistance that such a deal as this will bring all these players that we have just signed will be gone in a year or two and Everton will be back to the bottom of the league. Make no mistake about it, Football and Everton is a business, pure and simple.
Well you can’t have it both ways. If you want a pure club for the fans and no corporate welfare then go support a Division 3 side because you sure as hell will not find it in the Premiership. Everton were once great, but that was a long time ago. The team is just now starting to look good again but without the financial assistance that such a deal as this will bring all these players that we have just signed will be gone in a year or two and Everton will be back to the bottom of the league. Make no mistake about it, Football and Everton is a business, pure and simple.
David,
What financial assistance is Everton getting in this deal? How does that compare to spending the same at redeveloping GP or going to the Loop? Why is moving to Kirkby the only way we can achieve the business results you’re talking about if the same facilities can be delivered at those costs at GP or elsewhere?
What financial assistance is Everton getting in this deal? How does that compare to spending the same at redeveloping GP or going to the Loop? Why is moving to Kirkby the only way we can achieve the business results you’re talking about if the same facilities can be delivered at those costs at GP or elsewhere?
Kevin, As a matter of fact I don’t believe that having a new stadium per se will bring a wealthy investor banging on the door. I suspect what has prevented an investor coming in up to now is partly the resistance of Bill Kenwright to loosen the reins, partly the enormous shadow cast by the RedShite and most likely a number of other factors we don’t see from the outside. Maybe one of those is the need for a new stadium or vast investment at Goodison. Having a really good new stadium inside Liverpool might help. Moving to the Theatre of Mediocrity the next town over? I doubt it. I can hear Ivan the Billionaire now, touring the new stadium. "But Bill, I always believed Everton was a great Liverpool club."
- "Well we are, Ivan. Liverpool is just down the road across that imaginary line over there. We think of it as Liverpool."
- "But Bill, now we are in Kirkby. Right?"
-"Yes"
-"You leave Liverpool. Now you are Kirkby club. Small town club."
-Well, Ivan, that’s not the way I like to see it. Ivan...? Ivan....? Ivan....?
- "Well we are, Ivan. Liverpool is just down the road across that imaginary line over there. We think of it as Liverpool."
- "But Bill, now we are in Kirkby. Right?"
-"Yes"
-"You leave Liverpool. Now you are Kirkby club. Small town club."
-Well, Ivan, that’s not the way I like to see it. Ivan...? Ivan....? Ivan....?
Tom,
There has been tons of documentation about the financial assistance being given to us by Knowsley Council for this development as part of Kirkby?s City Center redevelopment and regeneration. You can?t spend the same to redevelop Goodison Park because LCC won?t let Everton expand the site?s footprint. Also, where would we play while this redevelopment was going on? And LCC have said they will not give Everton the same financial assistance that Knowsley Council are giving us.
There has been tons of documentation about the financial assistance being given to us by Knowsley Council for this development as part of Kirkby?s City Center redevelopment and regeneration. You can?t spend the same to redevelop Goodison Park because LCC won?t let Everton expand the site?s footprint. Also, where would we play while this redevelopment was going on? And LCC have said they will not give Everton the same financial assistance that Knowsley Council are giving us.
David, if you knew your history, you would know that Everton has been a business since well before your were born. The issue is about the business decisions they are making now, and the spin in which they are being wrapped.
Lots of claims are being made about Kirkby and what it will or won’t do for the club. None of those are certain, just as your doom-laden scenario is not certain. But even you should be able to see from the opinions voiced on this website that there are extremely serious concerns about that business decision. Surely it would behoove the business to pay some attention to these concerns, purely form a business perspective, would it not? Or are they simply to be dismissed as "collateral damage" of blowing up Goodison and moving to the less-than desireable "Destination Kirkby".
Lots of claims are being made about Kirkby and what it will or won’t do for the club. None of those are certain, just as your doom-laden scenario is not certain. But even you should be able to see from the opinions voiced on this website that there are extremely serious concerns about that business decision. Surely it would behoove the business to pay some attention to these concerns, purely form a business perspective, would it not? Or are they simply to be dismissed as "collateral damage" of blowing up Goodison and moving to the less-than desireable "Destination Kirkby".
I lost the ability to read about 1/3 of the way down.
This seems to be about living next door to a supermarket. Well, one of those (a Sainsbury) is not only the best corner shop I’ve ever had, but also one of my best neighbours.
Any Evertonians who disaprove of supermarkets - and, importantly - never shop at them, can hope that this future route for Everton falls apart.
I disapprove of Murdoch, Sky TV, and paying for football on TV. As far as I know, I have never given Murdo a penny.
This seems to be about living next door to a supermarket. Well, one of those (a Sainsbury) is not only the best corner shop I’ve ever had, but also one of my best neighbours.
Any Evertonians who disaprove of supermarkets - and, importantly - never shop at them, can hope that this future route for Everton falls apart.
I disapprove of Murdoch, Sky TV, and paying for football on TV. As far as I know, I have never given Murdo a penny.
Michael,
Last time I checked the club held a vote to decide whether or not to go and the result was "yes".
Last time I checked the club held a vote to decide whether or not to go and the result was "yes".
blah blah blah...
so boring now....
we are moving.... much to my dismay...
no point raking up old dirt...
so boring now....
we are moving.... much to my dismay...
no point raking up old dirt...
And with that I believe we have come full circle on this thread... which has become plenty long enough. Comments are now closed. Plenty of other threads still open, however...
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1 Posted 14/11/2007 at 20:33:22
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Whole-heartedly agree with you. It completely and utterly guts me when I see these glossy "impressions" of what Kirkby will be like. It should not make any fan feel like that. We should not be divided down the midde. We should not be moving away from the city in which we have helped put on the map. We should not have to worry about future generations of supporters from the city of Liverpool choosing to support the only team from the city.
The latest imagery does not fill me with optimism. It fills me with despair. The board and Wyness are leading us down the wrong route in my opinion.
It smacks of contrived propaganda.
Look how they carefully select Kirkby born and bred Alan Stubbs to super impose into the new stadium even though he wont even be around in 5 years time.
Subtle, but it just stinks from top to bottom.