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That's Us In The Corner

By Dave Rymer  ::  14/04/2012
 32 Comments (ğLast)

It?s a quite unique feeling, I think. One that, in my life at least, has only ever been brought on by football. It?s the feeling of being winded by someone without actually being touched, the feeling that probably most of us felt when Carroll?s goal went in today and you just want to slump somewhere in a heap.

I don?t think it?s an expectation thing because I wouldn?t have said I was expecting to win, or even that I was quietly confident about it. Maybe it was Jelavić?s goal giving a glimpse of how good it could be but then the same thing happened in the Final in 2009 with Saha?s goal, yet this feels different. Then, we were beaten by a better team made up of better players. Today, we weren?t.

The difference, it seems, is attitude. When I say attitude I don?t mean how hard anyone is trying or how much effort is going into it, I mean a winning, almost arrogant attitude that says ?We deserve this lead, we deserve to be here. You try and stop us.? That is the belief that wins you trophies.

It?s the difference between being the King at the head of the table, and the grubby kid sneaking in the back door, sitting in the corner, eating a piece of stale bread, hoping no one notices you.

This is why we don?t beat the big teams away from Goodison. At home, that attitude isn?t as important because we have the crowd and the atmosphere to get over it, but away or at a neutral venue, like today, you need that arrogance to say to the other team ?we?re winning, you do something now.?

Instead, we score and then seem to forget all the good things we can do, or had done up to that point, panic and start to defend deeper and deeper, basically giving the green light to the opposition to come at us before they had even started to play well. Like someone who sees a firework and pre-emptively closes their eyes and covers their ears before the thing has even been lit, because they?ve heard that they can be dangerous.

The art of winning when you?re expected to win or when you?re in a position to do so is probably an even tougher skill to pick up than the art of learning to win in the first place. It?s one of the problems Spurs are having at the moment and it?s one of the reasons we fell apart the year after we finished 4th. Player for player, we?re as good as Liverpool but we just don?t seem to believe we belong at the same table as them.

To me, it?s the same problem that is behind our perennially bad starts to the season. Playing catch up, working your way through the field unnoticed when you?ve been written off and there?s no pressure is much easier than leading from the front and winning when you were the one to beat. It?s the difference between being a one-time surprise winner and a great champion.

I don?t know if it?s something that can be changed in a player a manager or a club, whether it?s something that time and experience teach you or if a complete overhaul is needed to make it happen, but either way, having players who are good enough is only half of the battle.

When it does happen though, just think of how good it?s going to feel!

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John Kenny
364   Posted 14/04/2012 at 19:36:35

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How upset I am. 1-0 up then sit back and wait to get beat. I think we need to change manager. Have not got season ticket now because we play crap. Feel so low T his has put me on a downer. I hope I can feel better, but I dont feel it. Angry and upset.
Dick Fearon
402   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:02:52

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In a tight game any kind of mistake could see you lose.
Moyes sets his stall out to play a tight game, hence those hundreds of times over the years when we lost to sides by the odd goal.
Lord preserve us from this loser with his losing mentality.
As for Drenthe, if for any reason he has not behaved in a professional manner get rid and sue him for breaking his contract. That is what should happen but won't. As usual we will be treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and covered in shit.
A month ago on these pages I said I could almost hear Andy van der Meyde having a good laugh at RR's shenanigans.
Eugene Ruane
405   Posted 14/04/2012 at 19:51:03

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Spot on Dave.

Yesterday on TW I wrote..

"Moyes imo simply needs to make sure they're mentally up for it. Physically we can more than match them and we are, by some way, the form team. It will be 'upstairs' where this match is won or lost".

Fact - for whatever 'reasons' we DON'T have it upstairs.

Moyes blames the players, we blames Moyes and/or the players and round and round it goes.

When we need to win, REALLY need to, we can't.

What WOULD or can change this mentality?

For me, the type of players who, these days, are VERY hard to find.

Winners.

I don't mean Messi or Giggs, I mean nasty dog's arses who would trample small children to get to a ball.

A couple of mouthpieces/narks who can play a bit.

Winning IS a state of mind and one we unfortunately don't have.

In 83 we had (to some extent, like now) some good players but we weren't winners.

Reid and Gray changed all that.

Narks who would not shut up, argued the toss over EVERYTHING and dragged the rest of the club with them.

Finding players like this (specially these days when 25 grand a week is considered shit money) is NOT easy.

We argue constantly on TW about team selection, formation and tactics, but none of that really matters if the mentality running through the place isn't right (nb: and it definitely isn't).

Personally I'd have loved Nolan as I think he is one of the few out there who has the personality and nastiness I believe we need to become winners.

Actually, everybody (of course) likes winning, but for me, the question is probably 'how much do you hate losing?'.



John de Frece
408   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:27:22

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Still hopelessly depressed hours after .
Look, we didnt have many chances in the first half. For a change we got a lucky break and scored - but honestly apart from that we never looked like scoring again.


I think Moyes understood that there were too many players having a day off , realised we wer'nt going to score again and tried to hold out.

Who knows ? If Distin hadnt cocked it up , it might very well have worked and Moyes would have been a hero tonight.

It didnt - so now everybody wants his head - me included !

Mark Riding
414   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:30:54

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Eugene, lets talk about winning..
No shit, I was walking along to our gate at Wembley today and a random chant of 'one Neville Southall' went up.
I looked around, and a wall of denim wearing a pair of shades was walking casually up the pathway.
It was 'Big Nev' - My Hero.
I managed a handshake, I was made up.. day going like a dream..

Eugene, you ask 'how much do you hate losing ?' - I give you Neville Southall.
Who today was even in that league.. I dont mean skill.. I mean mentality ?? 3 or 4 tops...
Dave Lynch
415   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:20:40

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Who's job is it to make them believe then ?
That fucking loser Moyes that's who. The Useless fucking twat has the cheek to lay the blame at a couple of players and tries to dodge a bullet.
Well it aint going to wash you overated twat, your'e the manager, it's your fucking fault.
Grow a set of balls and admit it arsewipe. Then do us all a favour and fuck off, take that useless prick round with you as well as Mc fucking Fadden.
The pissterer i get the more i am fucking hurting and hurting bad.
You have broke this lads heart too many times you dour, scottish, whinging, pessimistic, humourless TWAT !
Take your losing, defensive, morbid, insipid, shite tactical mindset back to Scotland and manage Celtic.
I have had efucking nuff.
Brian Waring
417   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:38:23

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Your spot with the Nolan type of player Eugene. Someone who wouldn't give a fuck about upsetting anyone, a win at all costs mentality.
Brian Waring
419   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:42:56

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A Vinny Jones!
Doug Nestor
421   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:41:22

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Dave Lynch..........exactly how I feel..........fucking hurts........I don't know when it will stop.......I'm totally twatted..........I'm normally an upbeat Person but not now I am totally defeated............and Pissed
Mark Murphy
426   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:49:34

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dave lynch
I would love to share several pints with you some time.
f#cking bob on!
Simon Harris
434   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:30:32

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Eugene, brilliant post.

When they equalised, we crumbled. The inevitable demise emanated from the players to the fans and I sat back down in my seat praying someone out there would do a Peter Reid.

Rally his team mates, bollock the likes of Gibson to find the minerals and get into them. Lead by example and flatten someone (In their own half) to lift the crowd and the players.

What I noticed instead, was Neville make a lame attempt to gee his chums up, and Gibson visibly ignore him and walk off with his head down.

The only hope I had left was that we would get to 90 mins and Moyes would get into them.

People can blame Moyes all they want, and yes he is responsible, but so are the players, no one stood up to the shite in the 2nd half and for that they can all fuck right off, cos I'm tired, pissed off and humiliated again.


And to top it off, not long home and my currys just been delivered by gobshite
Richard Tarleton
436   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:59:29

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We don't set out to win, we set out not to lose and that's the difference in mentality.
Declan Brown
440   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:41:38

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How much more of this do we have to take? I grew up on bad Everton teams giving it their all in the Derby's (Harvey, Kendall, Walker, Royle), the rot set in when Smith came in but at least he got angry afterwards when beaten by Liverpool. Moyes has given up even competing with them.

It's Groundhog Day every time we play them now. What is now, 4 wins out of 23/24 games against them? When will the Gobshite-ridden Media call out his record and tactics against the bigger clubs for what it really is?

Has ever an Everton manager been allowed such a dreadful record in the Derby's alone, his record is that he hasn't won a single away game at Old Trafford, Anfield, Stamford Bridge and Ashburton / Highbury in his time, what is now 43 games under his leadership? Acceptable for the country's 4th biggest club over a 10 year period, do me a favour!!!

Me personally, i would have sacked Moyes instantly after the most recent Anfield Derby, his actions that night sealed his fate in my eyes, to do that with the arrogance he showed (see his comments afterwards) was enough for me. I have never witnessed such disrespect to the fans as that episode.

Kenwright and Moyes have been trying to lower the bar of expectation for years, a top 10 finish is successful for the country's 4th most successful team? And the slide to being an also ran bordering on being mediocre continues on.

Moyes, if you feel that you can't compete any more, for £65,000 i'm sure someone who would love a shot at it, you're not bigger than the club, we took you from nowhere and we can easily put you back there again, remember Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Tottenham and many others didn't exactly want you did they when it came to getting a new manager? Why?

I'm very angry but not surprised at today's showing. A "mediocre" team like Joe Royle's FA Cup winning team would have had that lot beaten mentally in the tunnel before the game.

Moyes take your knife and frig off, we're in the big league with guns, we have been long before you came, nearly 50 consecutive years now, we want someone who sees the challenge and goes at it with a gritty determination and has the stomach for the battle and sees Liverpool the same way us supporters are. I've never heard an Evertonian accept that we are 2nd best to them. But to hear it continually from our manager?

If you don't get it by now, why don't you have a quiet word with Joe Royle, Howard Kendall and any of their players.

Another 5 years of this, i'm sure it will get to the point where Moyes won't even send out a team out in the Derby, just give them the 3 points, what's the point, they hammer us everytime no matter how crap they are so why go through the ritual humiliation twice a year?

Supporting this club under Moyes and Kenwright is really pushing the limits of tolerance. And i witnessed the pain of last day survival conquests. Those teams lacked ability but by God they had heart when it came to crunch time.
Brian Denton
442   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:01:51

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Fair point Eugene, but also a player like that in the modern game (if he didn't play for one of the 'big' teams) would be forever getting booked and sent off.

I 'ad that Joey Barton in my cab once..........
Declan Brown
443   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:06:14

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Brian, forget vinny jones, we had Barry Horne and Joe Parkinson, even John Ebbrell always was up for a battle. Them 2/3 would walk into our midfield today.
Ryan Holroyd
444   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:06:36

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I posted a week or so that as a club we don't have that winning mentality. Liverpool do. We've never hardly ever had it. Even pre-Moyes. We are losers with a loser's mentality.
John Keating
446   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:05:07

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Eugene. Spot on.
We just don't have the mental strength to realise we can win.
We don't have the players to kick fuck out of Gerard and Carragher and Skrtl and then go in their dressing room after the match and kick fuck out them again !
We just don't have self belief.
Moyes should show those tossers the Wigan ManU game before we play them.
Not that they'll take any notice probably spend the time talking about which Ferrari they're gonna get next week !
Bastards don't feel our pain !
Mark Riding
449   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:08:10

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Brian, Barton is an obvious choice for the combat-style midfileder, but he is a bit of a gobshite... we have searched for the type before..

It should be Fellani.. he is our record signing on top dollar, and when he is good he looks the biz..
We tried Nyarko.. we had Gravesen.. we had Arteta..
Its the player that makes the team 'tick' in the midfield..
Gibson is good, no doubts.. but he dosent make a team tick...
Answers on a postcard ?
Tony Marsh
451   Posted 14/04/2012 at 20:54:57

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Been to bed and got back up again. It's hard lying in my pit replaying the backpass over and over in my mind... I am about to get absolutley hammered to try and kill the pain, to ease my suffering, to wash away the terrible memories of yet another Moyes-inspired 'curl up and die' routine.

I said to my 12-year-old on the Tube back to Harrow after the game, "Are you prepared for what lies ahead supporting Everton son?" "Yes, Dad," he said... Poor Bastard, he just doesn't know. How can he?

After the dust has settled on this season, I think many of us will find it really hard to get back up for it next time around. What's is the point? The next sure-fire thing to happen will be Jelavic, our new hero getting totally destroyed by that twat Moyes and his gobshite sidekick Round.

What kind of shithouse must Kenwright be if he can't see or feel what we see and feel...Watching Jelavic running himself near to death to chase fucking aimless balls ? all with Moyes's name on them made me want to vomit. As soon as Ken Dodd equalised, I knew right there we were done for and I nearly cried...

Of all the places and all the teams to do it against, Moyes gives Evertonians there biggest day of misery and shame at Wembley and thinks he is blameless. Fucking clowns will say he is still the man for us but like I have said in the past he never has been the right man. He is defo not one of us, he doesn't understand us or how we function

The two worst derby defeats in Everton's history both served up within a month by a twat called Moyes....

FFS HURRY UP JACK DANIELS AND WORK
Wayne Smyth
462   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:14:55

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People talking about buying players with a winning mentaility have missed the point.

At a club like ours where the manager is part of the furniture, HE largely determines the mentality of the 11 who go out there, especially players who've been here since they were young. He's probably a father figure to many of them.

If we want to change the mentality of the club and its players, there is only one signing we need to make; a new manager.

While you can't argue with the league position, personally I'd rather have a manager with some backbone who instills confidence in the players. We may not finish consistently as high, but the football will likely be better and we'll have a higher chance of actually winning things.
John Keating
471   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:26:11

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Surely he was resting players for the Utd game to ensure we only lose 1-0
Nick Waters
473   Posted 14/04/2012 at 21:16:20

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I'm speechless, it seems. Some observations:

We can't turn defence into attack - ever! Mind you if we had some attacking coaches on the staff.........

The Moyes - Cahill - Neville - Howard axis has had its day. It's now tired, predictable, over loyal, too cosy and virtually a clique within the club. Moyes hasn't got (or had) the balls to move them on.

Moyes is more concerned about his personal stats and keeping his stock high than he is about attempting to transform the club's playing style, reputation, and vibe.
Alan Farrell
509   Posted 14/04/2012 at 22:30:17

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Doug Nestor
421

You alright there man you should probably take a sit down sounds like your out of breath or something
Barry Rathbone
518   Posted 14/04/2012 at 22:31:42

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Now here's something to ponder:

I don't think Moyes has ever won a "REAL" match.

When we've done Chelsea, City, Arsenal... even Liverpool, they've always been not "at it" IMO.

Even the Sunderland game ? was it us? Or were they unbelievably shit?

3-3 against Utd at Goodison is the only game we had balls.

I think that's the "genius" of Moyes: he has a consistent gameplan of playing just above shite.

Enough to catch top teams when they're lazy and that's it.
Andy Corrie
526   Posted 14/04/2012 at 23:00:21

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This is EXACTLY why we need a new manager asap!

We will never win the psychological battles with Moyes at the helm!
Eugene Ruane
687   Posted 15/04/2012 at 09:52:50

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Wayne Smith 462, you say..

"People talking about buying players with a winning mentaility have missed the point. At a club like ours where the manager is part of the furniture, HE largely determines the mentality of the 11 who go out there".

Disagree 100%.

You think Moyes is 'determining the mentalities' of our under 13s?

Under 14s...15s?

The manager plays no part in the genetic makeup of a player.

The manager doesn't choose a players's parents.

The manager has no say in the size of the family the player is from, or where that player is in the pecking order with his siblings.

The manager doesn't decide if a player will be brought up in a Hampshire village or some mad estate in Kilmarnock.

Or what school he'll go to, or who his mates or infant school teachers will be.

You think Peter Reid's personality was fashioned by football managers?

(I saw him when he was a kid playing for Huyton boys - believe me, his personality an attitude were in place by the time he was 13).

You think football managers created the personalities of Billy Bremner, or Dave McKay or or Tommy Smith or Bobby Collins?

All a manager can do is SPOT these personalities and develop or buy them.

I have thought for years Everton are a quiet side.

Sure Neville points and shouts but with NO authority.

NOBODY in that side thinks "Oh shit, Phil will give me a right bollocking" (would you?)

Our mentality is all wrong - we are too quiet and too 'nice'.

Roy Keane was an odd fucker, seemed to be at war with the world at times, but everyone in that United side knew he had his eye on them and a small mistake could result in him losing it.

We actually DO have a few decent players but we need two or three in the squad who despise losing more than anything else in life (nb: looking dejected and saying "obviously we're all gutted at the moment" is NOT the same thing).

As I said earlier, these days players like thios are VERY hard to find, which is a worry as I'm as sure as I can be of anything, that 'winners' won't be 'fashioned' from our present squad.

And DEFINITELY not by Moyes.

Paul Thompson
735   Posted 15/04/2012 at 12:15:34

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Spot-on again Eugene. You buy for character as well as skill.

There's actually some contradictory things about this teams' character. We can and do come from behind. As far as I know, no other tream has scored as many winners/requalisers in the last 10 minutes. We do appear to have (some) resilience.

But it doesn't appear to transfer to the larger stage where you need big egos and players who can take the game (and colleagues) by the scruff of the neck.

As you say, not easy to find. but it's got to be an absolute priority in the summer transfer window.
Wayne Smyth
889   Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:09:34

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Eugene, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Moyes ? and all managers who have been at a club for a long time ? has much more of an effect on the (lack of) aspirations and belief of many in the squad than you give him credit for.

Sure, there are one-off's who believe they can do more and deserve to win, but that kind of player usually comes with baggage, and Moyes doesn't generally get on with those. (Drenthe is a good example.)

All the bullshit speeches he gives, talking about knives and gunfights and holding on desperately to a narrow lead echoes the way the team often plays: scared, gutless, no belief.

Regardless of who's right or wrong on that point, Moyes chooses the players and Moyes picks the team and I think he'll always sign and play players who will toe the line over players who have a winning mentality.
Barry Rathbone
896   Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:24:32

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Sorry Eugene I'm with Wayne on this one.

There are the likes of the lads you mention but as you say they are, and IMO, always have been a rare breed (unless you visit jail where the % is quite high).

Whenever our cousins across the park pull a rabbit out the hat I think that's Shanks coming through - bloodyminded no-one else matters, we're cock of the walk Shanks, even after his death the strength of will remains.

Hated him as a kid but in hindsight it's what I've always wanted at Everton and where I do agree Mr Moyes isn't of that cloth.
Eugene Ruane
926   Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:56:41

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Wayne/Barry, don't disagree with you re Moyes (I've been posting criticising him and his type of 'football' and tactics etc, for more than 3 years).

And as I've said, the type of player/s I refer to aren't easy to find

However I think the method managers (most of them) use searching for players is a fairly unimaginative exercise.

"We need to strenghen the left hand side, we're looking for cover for our centre half" etc etc.

It assumes you fill in the bits and...it'll kind of work.

I'm guessing scouts aren't being told "Find me a leader, find me someone who fucking hates losing at EVERYTHING, find me a hard case, a big mouth, a winner"

As you've probably guessed, I believe Peter Reid was in large part responsible for our change of fortune in the 80's.

Yet he wasn't a great header of the ball, wasn't a Hoddle spraying balls all over the show, didn't score many, was getting on in years and was getting over bad injuries.

Didn't matter, he could motivate and/or frighten those around him (nb: on BOTH sides)

When Clough bought Dave McKay to Derby, McKay was, according to the experts, finished (a crock).

He (and Derby) ended up winning the title.

For me it's like teachers at school, some of them you could take the piss out of, some of them came with a warning - 'do NOT fuck with me son'.

This type exists in every factory, pub, bank and..in football.

We imo need to find a couple fast.

Without such a player (or two or three of them), with our resources, Moyes (nb: or anyone else!) can swap players or formations about all they like, we're not winning stuff until we get a couple of winners in.
Mark Riding
931   Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:27:30

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Eugene.. It wasnt just Reidy mate..

The "don't fuck with me" could also be applied to Big Nev, Dave Watson, Sharpy, Psycho Pat... more recently Barry Horne, Dunc, and I wouldn't like a scrap with Davie Weir either.

It's not that were a team of pussies now, Johnny is ok, but he did shit out of that tackle, Cahill is a pest... But I agree that we need a bit of a hardcase for when it come on top. Gibson? Not sure...
Eugene Ruane
958   Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:46:56

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Mark, I agree those names you quote were all hard cases (funnily enough, it was only when Reid and Gray came in that Sharpy seemed to grow a pair - before 84, he was a decent player but fairly quiet).

Psycho Pat was a very hard player but not particularly mouthy on the park (he was boss of his bit of the park, Reid was boss of ALL of it).

However it's not just about being a hard case (as Barry Rathbone points out, prisons are full of them).

It's about being a winner, it's about despising losing at everything, it's about putting everything you have into a game and DEMANDING those around you do the same (and making sure they know they're in DEEP shit if they don't)

Many love Drenthe but for me, though blessed with ability, he's a spoiled child in a man's body and will ALWAYS put himself before the team or anything else.

I firmly believe if we ever want to win anything ever again, we need to realise (as the last two derbies proved) that before a ball has been kicked, these games are won or lost in the heads of players.

We need winners and currently, we appear to have too many none-winners (?).

Including of course, our genius of a manager.

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