Never ever thought I?d say this but I think I am willing to risk relegation for a change of philosophy and/or manager.
At the moment I liken Everton to a stale marriage; we could stay this way and although it?ll be boring and basically soul-destroying, there might be the occasional highlight and at least we?re comfortable. We get the occasional sneak over the fence at the neighbour?s wife and the dreams about her will do. OR we could ditch the current missus and try something different ? after all we?ve given it a decade. Maybe a younger, fresher model would make us happy again and at least we wouldn?t be just sitting there counting the clock down, fantasising. Sure, it could all go tits-up and we might die alone BUT alternatively we might just end up happier than ever. That?s the gamble...
I think David Moyes looked a beaten man on Saturday, and not just because of the result. This really felt like his last chance and we all know they blew it. Now, I don?t want to be ungrateful and say he has to go because I do think he?s done an admirable job of steadying a sinking ship and for a time, he did make me believe again. He has brought some amazing players through our ranks on a restrictive budget and although the football has been criticised as being functional, it has achieved results in the main. However, he is now starting to resemble his predecessor more than the sprightly, confident Scotsman I first saw back in 2002. And that is not good for anyone, except whoever is playing us.
If he is to stay, he MUST change his philosophy against the big clubs. We MUST try to win. If you don?t try to win in any sport, what?s the point in turning up? We don?t want a Keegan-esque tactical naivety but you can be positive without being careless. We undoubtedly are bottlers and choke on the big stage but I?m pretty sure nothing is more nerve-wracking for players than attempting to hang on for dear life to one goal leads. One way to relieve tension is to increase your lead - even an eight year playing FIFA on PS3 can attest to that. A great time to start would be at Old Trafford on Saturday when we have absolutely nothing to lose. Play the youngsters at the expense of the Cahills and Nevilles, who despite their undoubted passion have failed to lead when it matters.
I wonder if Moyes is actually too in the mindset of 2005 where we didn?t have good players and had to grind out results. Does he need the summer to take a step back and actually realise that for the first time since Tony Cottee (don?t sigh) we have a striker who could score 25+ goals per season? This squad is better than just sitting on 1-0 leads, I seriously believe that. Someone needs to take him aside and just point it out, maybe a senior pro or one of his mentors like Hodgson or Fergie. Sometimes it really is that simple. I do get the feeling that he wouldn't listen though and I am just typing this last paragraph out of my loyalty to him as a man who clearly does care about Everton.
If he does go, we really do need someone who plays positively, not just ?attractively? (I am not a arrogant Spurs fan who expects Barcelona type football week in week out). Two candidates stand out right now; Lambert and Martinez; they also come with the bonus of being able to get the best out of average players, essential as our financial situation doesn?t look like changing anytime soon. I know I?ll get shouted down as just making knee-jerk judgements to Saturday?s result on in-vogue candidates and maybe I am.
I?d love to be sitting here suggesting Hiddink and Mourinho but we have to be realistic about who would take the job should Moyes leave. I?d go with Lambert ahead of Martinez simply because I believe his pedigree as a player convinces me he is a winner. We NEED a winner in the hot-seat and preferably one with some cup pedigree as this is clearly our best chance of silverware in our current financial mess.
Whatever way, I think we all agree that something has to give this summer. But it really isn?t as bad as it could be... or maybe it is and we?re just so used to it now.
BTW: Not sure if it?s true but I just read that we are the most supported EPL club in USA. Surely that must mean someone would be interested in buying us?!??!
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783 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:23:54
But no, what does Davey do? He spooks the team. He tells the team Liverpool are gonna come out and batter us, throw the kitchen sink at us, defend at all costs. I am sure he told Baines not to cross the half way line... Unbelievable ? the best attacking left back in the Prem.
The team came out second half visibly shitting themselves. Would Clough, Catterick, Kendall, Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson spook their team like this? I think not. Moyes is second-rate; we will never win anything with this conservative, containing negative football: it's time for change.
792 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:33:10
796 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:56:15
801 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:51:51
So many teams throughout Europe and the world change head coaches or managers or what have you expecting changes, when ultimately it's in the players hands. The primary objective of a manager in this league is to find and buy the best players for the available money. The second is to choose the best eleven and strategy for a given match. But, DESPITE anything but the perfect strategy, it comes down to the talent and knowledge of the players on the pitch.
It is my theory that if we had the funds of a, say, Liverpool, David Moyes would find the talent to make us a top 4 side. And, if we had the money, and therefore the success, no one would complain about Moyes. I urge anyone reading this to understand that ultimately it comes down to the players, and you'll be hard done to find a manager with a better talent for finding Premier League quality players with our dismal budget.
803 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:09:24
Everything comes back to the Chairman. He can't raise the money, he needs to ship out and move over for someone who does and who will allow to operate on a budget that is not dismal.
805 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:13:52
Well the problem is the lack of quality on the pitch, but you're right that it does come back to funds, and Kenwright.
818 Posted 17/04/2012 at 15:27:41
Make the big teams that Moyes struggles so much against say "We need to watch Baines and Pienaar, they will come at us, and for god sake keep an eye on that Jelavic fella." We don't; opposition managers know that all they have to do is plug away until they evetually break us down, and that scoring one goal is usually enough to win.
856 Posted 17/04/2012 at 16:41:20
Time and time again I have seen him exort his players to hold a higher line and to keep passing rather than resort to hoofball.All to no avail. Footballers have minds of their own and once on the field will determine themselves what mode they are going to adopt.
Certainly,Moyes is a conservative coach,concentrating greatly on defensive perfection but there is little or no evidence that he constrains any of his players from taking the fight to the opposition.They fail to do this on their own account.
Sunday`s tussle with Man U.will be a good test.Of course he will implore them to` keep it tight` but,and it`s a big but,IF THE OPPOSITION ALLOW-as did Sunderland-no opportunity will be lost to attack.The trouble is that the big half dozen have better players than ours and,coach or no coach we aren`t really up to the task.
Blaming the manager is a convenient outlet for our disappointment-the real culprits are the ones that acually kick the ball-or try to!
864 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:16:16
Ultimately this is the worst Liverpool team I have seen in my 35 years of football and the league tables of the last few seasons will tell you there is little between us in terms of results. The difference is they rise to the occasion and seize the moment. We don't. Or we can't.Â
When Nottm Forest came from nowhere to win the European Cup in the late 70s they did not have worldbeating players. They had a manager who made them believe they can beat anyone.Â
We have good players. We dont put our heads on the chopping block and take a chance. Cup ties are one off games. Sometimes they take courage to win. We lack it. Hence David Moyes cup record is terrible.Â
Moyes will not take a gamble or take a chance. Hence we have stood still.Â
Liverpool do well in one off cup games because they take a chance and go for it. We never do.Â
876 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:31:59
Its still damming against Moyes if he continually picks the same players who ignore his instructions.
He has no problem taking kids out the side for months at a time if they dont do as their told but senior players can do what they want with no consequence?
Just who is in charge Moyes or Cahill and co.
888 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:39:27
I suspect Spurs and the Barcodes are one-season wonders (we even made top four ONCE!) but leaving them aside, we have to face up to the fact that we are leagues ? not points ? behind the wealthy four. That`s why Moyes finds it so hard to better them!
897 Posted 17/04/2012 at 17:47:33
906 Posted 17/04/2012 at 18:11:48
And EVERYONE understands, with our money, we won't 'better' the big spenders on a permanent basis.
What most CAN'T buy, is that what Wigan have achieved in a couple of weeks, Moyes hasn't been able to in TEN years.
(find a nice, logical, rational pro-Moyes argument for that, then get back to us).
By the way, in your post 856, you talk of the 'big half dozen'.
This, by post 888, has become 'the wealthy four'.
How many of these groups are we looking at?
Have a feeling if the presbyterian is still with us in August, you'll be posting to explain why we'll never break into 'the imposing 14' or 'the daunting 12'.
936 Posted 17/04/2012 at 19:46:15
Why are we happy with this?
Whats happened to our fans?
It feel's like our fanbase has been brainwashed into mediocrity and statistics and have forgoten that we used to be good to watch (exciting even).
939 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:04:55
I feel the same way,baffles me people actually believe we would be relegated as soon as Moyes leaves.
I am starting to think Moyes is a lot smater than I give him credit for,genius even.How else has he managed to brain wash so many people.
947 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:23:36
squad full of old players
15th in the league
9 games to go
and bringing in a guy who had never managed in the top division was a big gamble but it paid off.
Now 10 long years later and with this squad it isnt such a huge risk replacing the manager because this squad would not be relegated especially with Jelavic up front, the worst that could happen would be slipping down the league a few places.
Just like on Saturday there really is no reason to be afraid.
949 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:37:59
Battered Man Utd twice without spending a penny but have a positive, innovative coach.
953 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:42:51
In response to your questions. may I refer you to exhibit A - Mr Dodd
955 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:40:03
I love the banter on here but it does seem to attract `anti brigade`,the likes of which don`t seem to exist `on the streets`and on other sites.
.....Or is it that the thousands who continue to support the manager are just too bored to write in?
959 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:48:48
961 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:53:05
965 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:50:45
However, the inevitably of blowing a 1-0 lead cannot be lost on you. Against the best teams away from GP we are found wanting and this ain't new. Perhaps that's just everton, forever the bridesmaid and never the bride, a club with small balls.
971 Posted 17/04/2012 at 20:58:51
978 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:14:53
I wrote an article earlier in the season asking the question.... Is Moyes a control freak? Yes he is. He gives the players no freedom whatsoever. Get back, go here, push on Leon. Fuck me he has all week to let these players know their roles.
I have come to the conclusion that he is a has been centre half who wasn't good enough and he can't trust the guys who work for him. What makes it worse is none of them have got the balls to tell him to funk off. Hang on maybe that's what Drenthe did.....
988 Posted 17/04/2012 at 21:16:36
He is too comfortable - too powerful - too lacking in any degree of accountability. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely I think is the expression.
Here we are talking about Moyes going - he will go when it suits him - thereby displeling another myth of him being an "honourable" bloke. Might have been once. Nothing short of a fraud in my eyes these days. His cowardly incompetence is only surpassed by his self-serving arrogance.
If he had one ounce of contrition (and he should) about Saturday's White Flag Production, he would come out fighting and say the blame was collective and things are going to change.
Change 1: Steve Round is to leave and a new attack minded coach will be joining - to give me a different perspective - to improve us going forward - and GET THIS - challenge me on a daily basis to think positively!
Let's not do change 2...as yes this is a complete waste of time.
For the record...I would ditch Round and bring in Joe Jordan
045 Posted 18/04/2012 at 05:20:15
100 Posted 18/04/2012 at 09:34:41
We are as far away from winning anything as when he first arrived. He is praised for bringing in cheap signings and loanees but where are the young home grown players who's development he supposedly oversees?
107 Posted 18/04/2012 at 10:23:48
131 Posted 18/04/2012 at 11:34:26
I think most of us know that Moyes is not going anywhere unless us supporters do something about it and stay at home on matchdays.Spurs and Chelsea are not interested which will leave Kenright explaining how lucky we are to have such a looser.
Richard Dodd,it took you forever to see the light with Kenright,how long before the light switches on with Moyes?
133 Posted 18/04/2012 at 12:06:48
Why do you think if supporter stay away Moyes will go? We keep on hearing, he has the cushiest job in the league, so what if the attendences fall?
166 Posted 18/04/2012 at 13:10:05
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."
Will Moyes change his approach? Will he prepare his teams any differently? will he approach the sky 4 with anything other than a submissive attitude? If you can answer yes and you're right then he might deserve another chance, but if deep down you know things will be the same then why would the outcome be any different?
People may say be careful of what you wish for and cite the negative examples of failed managers, but the reality is ALL managers fail (perhaps apart from Ferguson and Paisely), but the difference is how long you give them before they move on. Whenever Moyes goes - which he inevitably must do, he will be replaced by someone who may or may not be successful. Worrying over whether that person will be a success or not is also inevitable and ultimately will come down to a bit of luck and a large slice of ability. The difficult question for some is - is now the time for him to move? for me its easy, thanks for some good years and some good moments but adios.
171 Posted 18/04/2012 at 13:37:52
If Goodison is at best half filled do you really think Kenright will keep Moyes knowing Everton are loosing more money week in week out and having the cameras display to anyone watching that
Evertonians cannot stomach it anymore.
As for the sarcastic mystic meg coment,thats been done to death and is a bit lazy of you.At the time i was stating the bloody obvious.
177 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:11:34
Yes, he could have been more positive on Saturday, but he played the same tactics against Man City, Chelsea and Spurs this season at home and won them all so why would he change? None of us would change a winning formula!!! It was only a Distin miss-kick (why didn't he put it into touch?) from winning it one-nil and we would be complaining about the 25,000 tickets that we would have received!
Moyes is the better than Walker, Royle, Smith and Kendall the third time around and there will be a huge downturn in our fortunes if he was to leave. It's not Moyes everyone should blame but the lack of funds that hamper his ability to sign top class players who would push the team on and get 2 or 3 goals against the "bigger" teams.
179 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:21:03
Do not sack Moyes. He is keeping us going till we find a buyer.
189 Posted 18/04/2012 at 14:38:28
But surely you see that any resonable comparison with these clubs ? by which I mean looking at performances over any length of time ? shows Moyes in a distictly favourable light.
So often we see teams like Wigan, Sunderland, Bolton, Blackpool (all last season ? Sunderland's three-nil win at Chelsea stands out) produce great individual performances but they don't do it over a season. Moyes does; somehow, he manages to get us above the pack, simply by winning more games. He gets the best out of what I see at the moment as a modest squad.
The OP makes a valid point. If we want more entertaining football, the likelihood is that we risk dropping down the league. I don't believe Moyes should be tagged as consistently dull, but if we want more flair, more creativity, if we look at other teams as examples, those who try this always fail over time... or again at least end up below us. Moyes's big problem is decision-making at big games, that's a separate matter, it's a problem but surely not a hanging offence?
If you or anyone else are saying you're prepared to risk it by having a go, then fair enough, but it's the assumption by some that deciding to play more attacking football will somehow cure our ills. It won't and it doesn't. Better players would.
Moyes gets the balance right most of the time, but when he's wrong it's usually a dirge... Saturday being the best example yet ? he didn't know what to do when the Shite equalised.
221 Posted 18/04/2012 at 15:44:52
The extremes are he's either 'a shit-house' or he's a good manager, as with him at the helm, Everton punch above their weight and don't get relegated
(I'm generalising but I'm sure these views are more than familiar to anyone who regularly visits TW).
And so the debate goes on.
For every point made, a counter argument comes.
Billy Eggcup: "Why did he do THIS?"
Ronnie Spoons: "Well what's he SUPPOSED to do..."
Personally, I don't expect many (possibly any) minds are changed by the arguments on TW.
I will however address one point you raised.
You said - "The OP makes a valid point. If we want more entertaining football, the likelihood is that we risk dropping down the league".
Well the OP does make that point, but personally, I believe this whole 'we'll get relegated if we don't play 'Davy's dull-ball', is bollocks.
As by the way is the (implied) notion that somehow with him we CAN'T go down (again total bollocks).
In the few games before the semi, we played some really good stuff.
It was pleasing to watch.
We tried to keep it on the deck, we moved it about, we scored more than one goal etc.
Chances were created.
We weren't Brazil 1970, but I defy ANYONE to say if we approach games this way, we'll go down, but if we approach games like City away, we're guaranteed to stay up.
Ronnie Spoons: "Yeah but that's not what people are saying"
Sounds like it to me.
225 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:14:07
Did you really say all teams who try play football end up below us,every team above in every year plays better footy.
I hope I read that wrong.
242 Posted 18/04/2012 at 16:58:01
"We know they`re the best there is but we don`t dwell much on what THEY can do because that only breeds fear," he remarked.
"We`ve concentrated on OUR strengths and how we can hurt them."
Hope the Moyestro heard it and pondered!
276 Posted 18/04/2012 at 18:32:51
In recent seasons there have been several examples of teams who attack in big numbers, invariably they are never able to sustain this, they get found out, all finish beneath us, but for some reason are ofen given as examples of how we should play.
I dont believe Moyes is as dull as many think. When we're bad we look clueless and his ability to find a decent Plan B is suspect, but again we/Moyes gets its right more than most. We press hard and pass at pace when we're on our game. This is why his league positions are consistently higher than anyone other than the money boys.
296 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:05:32
I am a Moyes fan, but even I see sometimes you need to vary the approach. Our season is over; will he have a go against United to restore some pride?
300 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:21:00
Okay, fair enough, I can't argue with that seeing as the only teams that finish above us spend money.
The impression I get from what you're saying is we have the edge over the teams at our level because we keep it tight rather than playing open football.
The only problem I can see in that is, one of the clubs going for the title, after seeing how it's worked for us, would adopt the same approach to gain a similar advantage over their rivals.
From what I can see all the teams at the top believe playing football is still the best way to win games, there must be other reasons we're best of the rest other than style of play.
311 Posted 18/04/2012 at 20:43:51
Paul - I think it's do with having continuity and stability that has allowed Moyes to create a good (not great) small squad of players, who by their own admission love the atmosphere and team spirit at Everton.
They want to play for each other and their manager and yes, there is work ethic at the forefront of our football with a dash of flair added when available (arteta, Pienaar, Jelavic etc)
Look at our rivals of recent years Spurs and Villa, both teams with a similar fanbase and stature. In the 10 years Moyes has been at Everton, we have often finished above them (punching above our weight as the pundits called it) while they have both changed managers a few times in search of that winning formula.
Spurs are pulling away now as they have assembled a costly and very good squad of players underpinned by an ambitious board, while Villa are in reverse and seem to be trying to emulate our model with a poor imitation of David Moyes on a comparable budget.
I think the ultimate reason why we finish(ed) above the pack is David Moyes, and he deserves credit for that.
314 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:23:44
You say yourself Moyes has been allowed time not affored time to build the team.
By your own admission other managers havent been given time so we will never know if they could have achieved similar results to Moyes.
I have said before though that my problem with Moyes isnt about results,its the way he has his team performing to obtain them results.
316 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:37:35
Ridiculous thing to say.
327 Posted 18/04/2012 at 21:37:51
I agree, we'll never know, and that's why we can all debate the pros and cons of Moyes day in day out (and probably will) as ultimately, unless he walks it's Kenwright and co who'll decide if he's meeting their expectations and something tells me he is.
Although, it will be interesting to see how the England job and subsequent knock ons pan out during the summer
329 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:05:12
Are you suggesting Moyes for the England job or there will be a chance he will replace whoever gets the England job.
333 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:11:08
337 Posted 18/04/2012 at 22:20:33
355 Posted 18/04/2012 at 23:30:06
Some then quote along the lines of... what about all (?) the times we did over v, w,x,y,and z at Goodison ( and the odd times we go to say chelsea spurs and city ) what about your MOB now.
I maintain that Moyeses cautious approach is now so ingrained in the collective team mentality that they can't lift themselves if they tried... unless some outside force or reason acts upon them.
Atmoshere... how many in say the last 5 years of these wins at Goodison, these wins and draws at Arsenal, Spurs, City and Chelsea were under lights... It's a mental thing, Moyes has them bamboozled, but the reverse Pavlovian prompting of a night game under lights at Goodison ( or elswhere ) has them jumping through hoops.
I haven't counted them all up but my impression is more than a fair few. The players get carried away, their Moyes cautious conditioning gets forgotten, the crowd get going we get synergies all over the place.
Then back to Goodison on a Sat afternoon Vs Bolton or whoever the go back to zombie state.
Moyes...the reverse Svengali, he makes a decent team crap.
357 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:09:42
After all Moyes is a miracle worker...
I can see the pre-Euro 2012 press conference... Taking a small country like England to a big tournament against established sides like Spain and the Germans is just like taking a knife into.....
359 Posted 19/04/2012 at 00:20:32
Moyes's main problem he has now is Cahill, Timmy is just not good enough anymore and is hampering the team play all round, can't play in midfield as he lacks passing and tackling ability, can't play up front anymore as he doesn't score enough goals.
I personally would not have played him sat, would have put ossie behind Jelavic where he is more suited, look what happened against Sunderland last monday with no Cahill, we were much more fluid as a team, continuing with Cahill will cost Moyes his job imo.
523 Posted 19/04/2012 at 16:30:32
There's just blinkered, excuse ridden idiots who can't let go of the vision of Moyes as some sort of Christ figure, and then there are people who can see clearly that his style of football is not astutely defensive, it is idiotic and sucks all life and belief out of players and supporters alike.<
It is NOT all about the players and resources, this is the great consolatory, lazy excuse of the modern, frustrated, success starved football fan.
Bielsa at Bilbao - no funds, he is simply trusting and working with very young players from the academy.
Yes - AVB could do something similar here - I'm sure he'd be up for Â£65k a week.
You CANNOT say that once the players cross the line, they simply revert to type and Moyes has no influence any more, he wants them to pass and push up but they just sit back, if so, that still comes down to BAD management and mental preparation.
Why bother having a manager if it's all about players?
And if it IS all about players, then Moyes is doing his job incorrectly because he coaches TOO much, fills their heads with doubt and NEVER lets them express themselves on the pitch, let them play if it's all about players.
Oh, I forget, there's no point trying is there? All the big clubs have got them and there's nothing we can do about it BOO HOO! Let's all get under the covers and sob shall we? FUCK THAT.
All this stuff about Moyes and his defensive capabilities is totally askew and perceived all wrong.
He is not an attacking manager no, Christ no, but he's not even a defensive on either, he is a LOSER.
He plays LOSER football, not defensive football.
Successful defensive football requires a modicum of pushing up and being on the front foot, in other words ATTACKING, that's how you defend!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sitting back is not defending!!!! It is negative, cowardly, stupid, pathetic, losing "tactics". It is NOT pragmatic, astute and sensible "given the resources at our disposal". It is Luddite, Neanderthal, inexcusable SHITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP anti anti - Moyes brigade people. Stop settling for this, and STOP imagining a imaginary "worse scenario" without HIM in charge.
It's time to call it a day, it's not me Dave, it's YOU!!!!!
I know change is hard for you lot, but the dream is OVER. Time to let the missus go.
530 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:12:10
''The problem Moyes has is a lack of resources that is plain to see, you cannot expect to compete on 2M ish per season it is pathetic for a club of our standing.''
Totally agree, yet Moyes sits on the Goals on Sunday sofa and tells the world that he has the greatest chairman he could wish for.
532 Posted 19/04/2012 at 17:18:43
Other than the top clubs who else has a lot of money to spend? Sunderland maybe.
583 Posted 19/04/2012 at 19:54:55
Royle had a bad season and that was it, Moyes has had a season far worse with an all time lowest points,goals record in the clubs history, you can also add a few other all time worst under Moyes, worst Euro defeat etc and I won't even mention the one that matters.
Moyes has done a good job nothing more nothing less and his history will show all those worsts records Joe Royles will show silver.
062 Posted 21/04/2012 at 12:07:14
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