I have been struck in recent weeks about the number of fans who will never forgive Moyes for the Semi final, for the result at Anfield and generally his record against Liverpool. To me it seems a disproportionate reaction to a few results. The debate about how poorly we played or team selection has been thrashed out but what did get me thinking about one question.
Would you rather never ever win against Liverpool, but always be in the top four and good chance of a league title each year or always beat Liverpool but never finish higher than 5th place?
Tim Locke, Posted 25/04/2012 at 12:46:28
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469 Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:40:22
476 Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:53:19
495 Posted 25/04/2012 at 21:23:27
It is heartbreaking looking at our overall record against Liverpool slipping away from us, and it seems so pointless. How can we lose so many to them in the last 10 years?
I completely agree with fans that are distraught with not beating them. We beat better teams than them year in year out. It needs sorting out
497 Posted 25/04/2012 at 21:35:24
Look at their last ten results and hand on heart tell me that every other club that has got a result from them should have bent over for a free prostate exam like Everton did
Arsenal H 1 2
Sunderland A 1 0
Everton H 3 0
Stoke City FA Cup H 2 1
QPR A 3 2
Wigan H 1 2
Newcastle A 2 0
Aston Villa H 1 1
Blackburn A 2 3
Everton FA Cup H 2 1
West Brom H 0 1
501 Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:27:48
If Moyes doesn't leave in the summer, then I won't be setting foot back at Goodison until he goes.
502 Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:27:56
I think he got off lightly for what happened at Anfield. Throwing a game against the Shite should be a sackable offence.
504 Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:40:18
530 Posted 26/04/2012 at 02:09:36
If we actually achieved something, ie, got into Europe above them, then yeah it would be easier to take losing the derby but we were well and truly spanked by them this year and even finishing above them doesn't make it any better for me.
531 Posted 26/04/2012 at 02:05:46
The answer is simple. We should beat the likes of Liverpool on a regular basis and finish well up the league. Win silverware etc. etc.
Unfortunately the management is uninspiring, negative and dour. It has conned us into believing/accepting that we should be grateful to wallow in mid table mediocrity.
Our recent performances against the so called top clubs clearly demonstrates we have the players to compete with anyone... but we are fed this crap about lack of finances dictating that we will inevitably fail. So please accept the average so that I can keep my job!
Sod that. The club should be ashamed of its recent performances against Liverpool, a very poor Liverpool I might add, not to mention just about every other game we played in the first half of the season.
Totally unacceptable, unjustified, reflecting weak spineless management I'm afraid.
It's about time people took off their blinkers, refuse to accept the limp excuses for mediocre performance, and demand the best. That is what any professional should be expected to produce, or strive for.
You set your sights low you achieve mediocrity.
545 Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:02:56
After all, we've been doing it for ten years.
It may be that people are finally seeing the BK-Moyes myth for what it is. Slowly killing the club from the inside, dumbing down expectations.
I used to want a new owner in to replace BK and give Moyes a chance to show what he can do. But then I realised that Moyes is one of the highest paid people in his position globally, and has no targets other than keep the heat off BK. That makes me think he won't take kindly to a new owner perhaps demanding a bit more for his £65,000 per week.
Moyes has shown with his comments post-March Anfield game, and post Semi, that he believes his hype, and the fans are wrong. So, I sit back in anticipation this summer to see the queue forming to take him.
In other words I couldn't give a shit any more if he does go. I think a lot are starting to feel the same.
552 Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:22:55
By his actions at the time,Moyes indicated that he was able to see beyond the tribalism which dominates so many Evertonian`s thinking and if,as seems likely,he saw Cup success as this season`s priority,he was,in a pragmatic sense,100% correct.
The performance/tactics in the eventual Cup clash with` the dark side`was altogether something different.
553 Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:46:22
555 Posted 26/04/2012 at 09:05:04
As Matt implies correctly, above, Moyes knows quite well what its all about - he just chose to stick 2 fingers up at all Evertonians
570 Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:01:22
As far as tribalism is concerned ,that`s for the fans.A good manager shouldn`t give it a thought.
579 Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:33:06
Don't agree - I've never known any derby games anywhere where a manager has played a weakened side against its tribal opponents - can you?
A manager who doesn't cater for tribalism and/or the football club's ethos is on very dodgy ground
How often have fans turned on a manager who doesn't appear to subscibe to or understand their expectations?
583 Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:53:20
We are not a very good side, no consistency so why should we be beating them on a regular basis? Why do you think we should be winning silverware? There are many teams out there better than we are, hence the reason we haven't won the league or a Cup.
With regards to the forfeited Derby, as much as it stick in my craw, I can see why he did it and ultimately it worked as he was targeting the cup...unfortunately when we got to Wembley he and his team let us down again.... as so often is the case with Everton....the one consistency is that they will always let you down
595 Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:19:57
One of the things that gets me about many of the posters on TW is that everything is about the last match without looking at the overall picture. Over the longer term, Everton under Moyes have performed far better than many teams who have spent more than us.
While I think we could and probably should have beaten them in the Semis, for the amount of money they have spent their being 2 pts behind us in 8th place is a huge underachievement. The only thing keeping King Kenny in a job is that FA Cup final I reckon.
597 Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:31:18
I havent seen many people calling for us to be even further up the league or regularly beating Liverpool.
I think most supporters expect us to be in with a shout of a european place,play decent football,have a go at Liverpool and believe we can beat them instead of shitting ourselves.
Is that too much to ask?
598 Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:39:56
602 Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:00:47
Bigger picture? Come on man, whats wrong with you?! How dare we play the likes of the RS and expect (even dream) to win? They after all spent billions on world class players like Carrol, Henderson and Downing dont you know. On the other hand we haven;t got a thrupense to wipe our skint arse with!
11 v 11 on the pitch, one of the highest wage bills in the league, crap an signing players on a free, I hear you say? Dont be stupid man - wake up and smell the Bovril!
605 Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:08:58
608 Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:11:07
I agree, we should be having a go at those shitehawks but unfortunatelty the manager and players shit themselves
Denis, your sarcasm is noted but it is still the truth, our rag tag team of free. loans and "can they be" players are not as good as many think they are.
We have good days and play nice footy sometimes, so do Wigan.
because we were brilliant for a few years in the 80's , it doesn't mean we have a right to win. We are a mid table side with an alright manager, nothing more but becuae we had a sniff of returning to the good times, we expect the manager and team to be better than they really are.
614 Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:18:16
There are teams that have spent very little money and have arguable worse squads than we do who manage to play entertaining football - the barcode this swason is an example, as are Swansea and Norwich (yes they are below us but we have a better team).
Our squad is not packed with world class players but we do have a very very good first team and if we were better in the transfer market (i.e. at signing frees and willing to let go of players and reinvest the fees and/or wages) we could have an even better squad. E.g. Moyes' fuck up with Billy. He realised quickly that he didn't rate him but hung onto him for 2.5 years whilst we paid him 2m a year in wages!
We are not Barca but people should not make out we're shite either, we're not and should be better.
622 Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:31:56
648 Posted 26/04/2012 at 13:49:24
We always get the old chestnuts of its only 11 v 11 etc. That's fine for an individual game (especially in the FA Cup) but over a season generally money will win out. That's why basically the same teams are at the top of the EPL, La Liga, SPL etc every year. For the net money spent, I believe Everton have far exceeded what would be expected. We have continued to do so on a regular basis. We have done so even when we have lost/sold some of our best players.
This doesn't mean that I accept mediocrity or hope that we can beat any team on our day. I hope that we can make a couple of good signings in the summer. I hope that we can break into the top 4 some time, maybe even next season but I don't automatically EXPECT it just because I support Everton.
654 Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:18:28
1. Tribalism is what football is all about. True fans of any club are tribal. They associate and belong to that family. Without tribalism you end up with Sky Sports trying to manufacture it (the big four).
2. In days gone by, when neither club won anything, the true measure of success in the city was who finished above who. Still is in my book.
3. It's a cardinal sin in the home of either club to throw a derby on purpose; if they were playing the Champions League final three days later l would almost understand, but a quarter-final against the mighty Sunderland?? Hardly a comparison is it?
Moyes compounded his tactical fuck-up that showed a lack of consideration for fans by declaring he should have rested more players!!! If that wasn't a finger to fans complaining then a don't know what is.
Disrespectful and shameless... "The People's Club"? No, it isn't. In Moyes We Trust? No, l don't.
657 Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:36:02
I don't agree that we have a poor side. I cited the performances against Chelsea, Tottenham, Man City, ManU as examples of what this squad is capable of.
The fact that we don't perform consistently is down to the management. The players can play.
Therefore again, we are capable of winning silverware and we should beat average teams like Liverpool.
The reason that we don't should be apparent to all to see. The money excuse is just that, a poor excuse.
Don't accept the mediocre!
665 Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:24:27
728 Posted 26/04/2012 at 16:45:21
It's the Richards that just don't "get it"
Imagine Howard or Joe doing similar? - no, me neither
734 Posted 26/04/2012 at 16:53:11
Good to see there are fans out there who not prepared to be fobbed off with weak excuses regarding "lack of finances holding us back" and preventing us from competing, and god forbid, preventing us from playing decent joined up football.
The usual counter is "well would you rather win the cup and get relegated" or just plod along in mid table mediocrity?
I am realistic and fully appreciate that one needs to be heavily financed to break into the top 4, to consistently win titles and qualify for Europe.
What I won't accept is that we cannot pull together a consistent enough level of performance resulting in the odd piece of silverware, and most certainly won't accept that we cannot beat Liverpool a few times.
We've won nowt since 1995, could have won the cup against Chelsea with the right motivation and management, and most certainly should have been in the final this year.
Is this too much to ask of a our club, even with Everton's so called lack of finances, although it can pay its manager around 65k a week!
Don't know if that's a fact but I bet he's on more than Birmingham's manager was when they won a trophy. Oh, I better expect a response along the lines of... but Birmingham got relegated!!
746 Posted 26/04/2012 at 17:07:52
Derby losses did not begin with Moyes (shamefully resting players may have done though).
The truth is that in my 40+ years watching Everton we haven't actually beaten them that many times even when we were really good. We even had a seven year period ended by Andy King when we couldn't beat them home or away, and then we didn't beat them that much after that either.
Somehow, this is a general Everton hang up, not a Moyes one. Moyes has actually delivered some of my favourite wins - the 3-0 AJ win, the Carsley and the Gosling one are up there with the King, Sharp and Ratcliffe wins. The SF hurt, but no more than the 77 SF or the 84 Milk Cup, when we were cheated by the devil worshipping gets, or the 86 Final (and 85 while we're on it) which I still cannot work out how we collapsed so spectactularly when in my opinion we had the better team.
I certainly don't agree Moyes should have rested players for the League game by any measure before I get pilloried. We should always set out to win any Derby game.
Thing is, I can put these behind me (sort of kind of maybe not completely ever) and move on to the next one, 'cos I've had lots of practice.
Mostly I think that kind of hope is what characterises the fan, the matchgoing ones anyway, because the vast majority of football fans don't experience any silverware ever and still turn up and in that respect I've been spoilt. Sorry guys but I can't really identify with some of the posters on here who say they will not set foot for this reason or that. You're entitled to your opinion but for me, whatever some of you say, it was much worse under Peter Johnson, as we spent money we didn't have, the football was worse (yes it was) and we got stuffed nearly every week.
772 Posted 26/04/2012 at 18:10:47
778 Posted 26/04/2012 at 19:17:48
I havent been watching Everton as long as either of you and as you point out Everton have always lost to Liverpool but in them years when we went a long time without a victory I bet it wasnt for the lack of trying.
My main problem with Moyes in the last two derbies is his total disregard for the fans feelings,it is totally inexcusable to throw a derby then to follow it up with a gutless display at Wembley.I'll never forgive Moyes for that.
789 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:03:19
By picking eleven players who were capable of getting a result.
793 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:25:25
795 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:21:29
799 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:31:57
The players on the pitch that night were capable of getting some sort of result.
Either that, or Moyes got tactics wrong, or the players bottled it (my view). Saying Moyes threw the game is complete bullshit.
801 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:40:17
802 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:43:06
803 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:52:54
804 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:55:28
Everyone of the players he picked should have been fighting to be regular starters but they choked.
To say Moyes threw the game is ridiculous.
805 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:59:49
806 Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:59:09
I think a young Colin Harvey played, and Morrissey and it was the first derby after Liverpool had won the League after us
We threw everything at them
I was was a kid stood on the kop with loads of other Blues and for weeks after we taunted the shower with how Everton Reserves hammered them
But that was a different era; people tell me that today you can't get players to pass a ball, run around, play with skill etc without a billionaire backer
Bollocks to that!
807 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:01:45
808 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:06:53
809 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:09:47
I just think saying the manager threw the game is wrong.
810 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:22:46
812 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:09:05
813 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:11:52
They have a better record because mostly they've had better teams, not so this time.
I see Moyess visage now and I nearly snarl, this sort of scenario was just so Moyes ? a crackpot idea reeking of fear and misjudgement compounded by abject failure in the semi.
We all prayed he'd learned and Sunderland wasn't just one of annual handful of good games ? he will never change ? when there's something on the game he's spineless.
814 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:34:16
815 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:37:27
816 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:41:18
He has said he wants a complete break from football so very likely to be true.
818 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:44:15
819 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:40:24
That doesn't mean Moyes deliberately sent a team out to get beat.
Nick, i never said it was most peoples opinion. My first post was to Paul. I can't really have a pop at him for not putting his best team out either as I'd have done the same thing. Like I said above, I wouldn't have changed as many though.
821 Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:58:05
828 Posted 26/04/2012 at 22:20:20
You say you'll never forgive Moyes. Was it purely because it was against Liverpool or would you have felt the same if it was another team?
830 Posted 26/04/2012 at 22:30:07
879 Posted 27/04/2012 at 03:01:38
Moyes has given Liverpool TWO lifelines this season, and KD must be rewarding his Glaswegian buddy in some way for all the favours he does for him and his kopites. It's us who have to live with the big mouthed glory hunters day in day out, so I would gladly take mid table and THAT semi final win, plus beating them at Anfield. After all, that's not beyond our capability given their totally shite record this season
886 Posted 27/04/2012 at 05:12:31
Not trying to beat Liverpool at every opportunity is a big mistake.
887 Posted 27/04/2012 at 03:12:15
921 Posted 27/04/2012 at 09:09:56
"That doesn't mean Moyes deliberately sent a team out to get beat"
No manager who understood the Everton ethos would ever field other than the best available side against Liverpool
He'd have to be so far up himself he couldn't see or, worse, bother about the prospect of the pain supporters would suffer if defeated, never mind bloody trounced
You just don't get it, do you?
Not your fault, you simply, like all of us us, are a product of your background, upbringing and experience
Having said that, I know so many young Blues who are as biased, passionate and downright pig- headed as us arl gits for whom Everton Football Club is the second most important thing in our lives
Arl arse motto: "Always have, always will"
(good title for a song, that)
090 Posted 27/04/2012 at 18:46:55
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