Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Never beat Liverpool

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I have been struck in recent weeks about the number of fans who will never forgive Moyes for the Semi final, for the result at Anfield and generally his record against Liverpool. To me it seems a disproportionate reaction to a few results. The debate about how poorly we played or team selection has been thrashed out but what did get me thinking about one question.

Would you rather never ever win against Liverpool, but always be in the top four and good chance of a league title each year or always beat Liverpool but never finish higher than 5th place?
Tim Locke, Bristol     Posted 25/04/2012 at 12:46:28

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Joe McMahon
469   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:40:22

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Tim - at the moment we are neither beating Liverpool nor finishing in the top four.
Frank Duffy
476   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:53:19

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Both Please!!!!!!
Darrel Pugh
495   Posted 25/04/2012 at 21:23:27

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My own view is there are many fans looking at Liverpool?s team and looking at our own thinking there is no reason on earth we can?t beat these. They aren?t very good!

It is heartbreaking looking at our overall record against Liverpool slipping away from us, and it seems so pointless. How can we lose so many to them in the last 10 years?

I completely agree with fans that are distraught with not beating them. We beat better teams than them year in year out. It needs sorting out
Gavin Ramejkis
497   Posted 25/04/2012 at 21:35:24

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Disproportionate?

Look at their last ten results and hand on heart tell me that every other club that has got a result from them should have bent over for a free prostate exam like Everton did

Arsenal H 1 2
Sunderland A 1 0
Everton H 3 0
Stoke City FA Cup H 2 1
QPR A 3 2
Wigan H 1 2
Newcastle A 2 0
Aston Villa H 1 1
Blackburn A 2 3
Everton FA Cup H 2 1
West Brom H 0 1
Ian Edwards
501   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:27:48

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Only someone from Bristol would say it was disproportionate.

If Moyes doesn't leave in the summer, then I won't be setting foot back at Goodison until he goes.
Paul David
502   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:27:56

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Disproportionate?

I think he got off lightly for what happened at Anfield. Throwing a game against the Shite should be a sackable offence.
Drew O'Neall
504   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:40:18

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If Suarez played for us it would have been a totally different game.... Little c*nt
James Stewart
530   Posted 26/04/2012 at 02:09:36

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The performances against Liverpool this year were a complete disgrace.

If we actually achieved something, ie, got into Europe above them, then yeah it would be easier to take losing the derby but we were well and truly spanked by them this year and even finishing above them doesn't make it any better for me.
Steve Barr
531   Posted 26/04/2012 at 02:05:46

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I'm afraid the question sums up the low expectations our current ownership and management has fostered.

The answer is simple. We should beat the likes of Liverpool on a regular basis and finish well up the league. Win silverware etc. etc.

Unfortunately the management is uninspiring, negative and dour. It has conned us into believing/accepting that we should be grateful to wallow in mid table mediocrity.

Our recent performances against the so called top clubs clearly demonstrates we have the players to compete with anyone... but we are fed this crap about lack of finances dictating that we will inevitably fail. So please accept the average so that I can keep my job!

Sod that. The club should be ashamed of its recent performances against Liverpool, a very poor Liverpool I might add, not to mention just about every other game we played in the first half of the season.

Totally unacceptable, unjustified, reflecting weak spineless management I'm afraid.

It's about time people took off their blinkers, refuse to accept the limp excuses for mediocre performance, and demand the best. That is what any professional should be expected to produce, or strive for.

You set your sights low you achieve mediocrity.



Matt Traynor
545   Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:02:56

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I don't think this is a reaction to this season where we capitulated to them 3 times.

After all, we've been doing it for ten years.

It may be that people are finally seeing the BK-Moyes myth for what it is. Slowly killing the club from the inside, dumbing down expectations.

I used to want a new owner in to replace BK and give Moyes a chance to show what he can do. But then I realised that Moyes is one of the highest paid people in his position globally, and has no targets other than keep the heat off BK. That makes me think he won't take kindly to a new owner perhaps demanding a bit more for his £65,000 per week.

Moyes has shown with his comments post-March Anfield game, and post Semi, that he believes his hype, and the fans are wrong. So, I sit back in anticipation this summer to see the queue forming to take him.

In other words I couldn't give a shit any more if he does go. I think a lot are starting to feel the same.
Richard Dodd
552   Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:22:55

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I believed at the time-and continue to do so-that resting players ahead of the Sunderland game was justified whoever the opposition happened to be.
By his actions at the time,Moyes indicated that he was able to see beyond the tribalism which dominates so many Evertonian`s thinking and if,as seems likely,he saw Cup success as this season`s priority,he was,in a pragmatic sense,100% correct.
The performance/tactics in the eventual Cup clash with` the dark side`was altogether something different.
Matt Traynor
553   Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:46:22

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Richard, as has been said many times by me and others, could you imagine him doing this at Celtic, his dream job?
Phil Bellis
555   Posted 26/04/2012 at 09:05:04

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Football would be dead without tribalism, Richard
As Matt implies correctly, above, Moyes knows quite well what its all about - he just chose to stick 2 fingers up at all Evertonians
Richard Dodd
570   Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:01:22

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Matt, at his salary,I suggest he sees Everton as his dream job! He`ll certainly never have the same control at any other club he goes to.
As far as tribalism is concerned ,that`s for the fans.A good manager shouldn`t give it a thought.
Phil Bellis
579   Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:33:06

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Richard,

Don't agree - I've never known any derby games anywhere where a manager has played a weakened side against its tribal opponents - can you?

A manager who doesn't cater for tribalism and/or the football club's ethos is on very dodgy ground
How often have fans turned on a manager who doesn't appear to subscibe to or understand their expectations?

Tony J Williams
583   Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:53:20

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"The answer is simple. We should beat the likes of Liverpool on a regular basis and finish well up the league. Win silverware etc. etc." - Why? This year is the first year I have thought they they are really shite, yet they win a cup and are in another cup final. They have spent masses of money on their squad.

We are not a very good side, no consistency so why should we be beating them on a regular basis? Why do you think we should be winning silverware? There are many teams out there better than we are, hence the reason we haven't won the league or a Cup.

With regards to the forfeited Derby, as much as it stick in my craw, I can see why he did it and ultimately it worked as he was targeting the cup...unfortunately when we got to Wembley he and his team let us down again.... as so often is the case with Everton....the one consistency is that they will always let you down
Ciaran Duff
595   Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:19:57

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Bang on the money Tony J (583).

One of the things that gets me about many of the posters on TW is that everything is about the last match without looking at the overall picture. Over the longer term, Everton under Moyes have performed far better than many teams who have spent more than us.
While I think we could and probably should have beaten them in the Semis, for the amount of money they have spent their being 2 pts behind us in 8th place is a huge underachievement. The only thing keeping King Kenny in a job is that FA Cup final I reckon.
Paul David
597   Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:31:18

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Tony 583

I havent seen many people calling for us to be even further up the league or regularly beating Liverpool.

I think most supporters expect us to be in with a shout of a european place,play decent football,have a go at Liverpool and believe we can beat them instead of shitting ourselves.

Is that too much to ask?
Gavin Ramejkis
598   Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:39:56

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Ciaran care to explain the bigger picture for us, the article is about not being able to beat Liverpool and the stats over ten years make really grim reading, even for the myopic, just how is this bigger picture going to change cold hard undeniable facts?
Denis Richardson
602   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:00:47

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Gavin - dont you know the facts?!! we have no money so we should not deserve to lick the boots of those clubs that have more money than us!

Bigger picture? Come on man, whats wrong with you?! How dare we play the likes of the RS and expect (even dream) to win? They after all spent billions on world class players like Carrol, Henderson and Downing dont you know. On the other hand we haven;t got a thrupense to wipe our skint arse with!

11 v 11 on the pitch, one of the highest wage bills in the league, crap an signing players on a free, I hear you say? Dont be stupid man - wake up and smell the Bovril!
Stephen Kenny
605   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:08:58

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If we finish above the shite and they win two cups will the Moyes fans on here then stop saying we're not good enough to win a cup and the other bollocks they spout to defend his appalling record in the cups?
Tony J Williams
608   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:11:07

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Paul, my post was aimed at Steven.

I agree, we should be having a go at those shitehawks but unfortunatelty the manager and players shit themselves

Denis, your sarcasm is noted but it is still the truth, our rag tag team of free. loans and "can they be" players are not as good as many think they are.

We have good days and play nice footy sometimes, so do Wigan.

because we were brilliant for a few years in the 80's , it doesn't mean we have a right to win. We are a mid table side with an alright manager, nothing more but becuae we had a sniff of returning to the good times, we expect the manager and team to be better than they really are.
Denis Richardson
614   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:18:16

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Tony, sarcasm is the lowest form etc......so I try not to use it too often. However, I'm just tired of the lack of money mantra.

There are teams that have spent very little money and have arguable worse squads than we do who manage to play entertaining football - the barcode this swason is an example, as are Swansea and Norwich (yes they are below us but we have a better team).

Our squad is not packed with world class players but we do have a very very good first team and if we were better in the transfer market (i.e. at signing frees and willing to let go of players and reinvest the fees and/or wages) we could have an even better squad. E.g. Moyes' fuck up with Billy. He realised quickly that he didn't rate him but hung onto him for 2.5 years whilst we paid him 2m a year in wages!

We are not Barca but people should not make out we're shite either, we're not and should be better.

Derek Thomas
622   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:31:56

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Denis; no we aren't barca ( we beat Chelsea ) what Tony is saying isn't sarcasm, which, while being the so called lowest form of wit...mostly so called by those who can't come up with a snappy retort and btw just for interest, if your retort takes more than 0.5sec, no make that 0.2sec to surface, then you've already lost the point; game over... is often the funniest, but Tony's isn't, in fact it's just this side of surrender monkey bollocks.
Ciaran Duff
648   Posted 26/04/2012 at 13:49:24

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Gavin (598), my understanding of the article is about comparing our perfomances against Liverpool versus League position. Which one is more important to us etc. To me, our overall position is more important. I hate the RS and hate losing against them but to be honest, many of their supporters that I meet in Oz think that Everton are a far better run club and, especially given their budget, that we are far out performing them.

We always get the old chestnuts of its only 11 v 11 etc. That's fine for an individual game (especially in the FA Cup) but over a season generally money will win out. That's why basically the same teams are at the top of the EPL, La Liga, SPL etc every year. For the net money spent, I believe Everton have far exceeded what would be expected. We have continued to do so on a regular basis. We have done so even when we have lost/sold some of our best players.

This doesn't mean that I accept mediocrity or hope that we can beat any team on our day. I hope that we can make a couple of good signings in the summer. I hope that we can break into the top 4 some time, maybe even next season but I don't automatically EXPECT it just because I support Everton.
Christine Foster
654   Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:18:28

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Goodness there is such utter rhubarb posted at times,

1. Tribalism is what football is all about. True fans of any club are tribal. They associate and belong to that family. Without tribalism you end up with Sky Sports trying to manufacture it (the big four).

2. In days gone by, when neither club won anything, the true measure of success in the city was who finished above who. Still is in my book.

3. It's a cardinal sin in the home of either club to throw a derby on purpose; if they were playing the Champions League final three days later l would almost understand, but a quarter-final against the mighty Sunderland?? Hardly a comparison is it?

Moyes compounded his tactical fuck-up that showed a lack of consideration for fans by declaring he should have rested more players!!! If that wasn't a finger to fans complaining then a don't know what is.

Disrespectful and shameless... "The People's Club"? No, it isn't. In Moyes We Trust? No, l don't.
Steve Barr
657   Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:36:02

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Tony #583.

I don't agree that we have a poor side. I cited the performances against Chelsea, Tottenham, Man City, ManU as examples of what this squad is capable of.

The fact that we don't perform consistently is down to the management. The players can play.

Therefore again, we are capable of winning silverware and we should beat average teams like Liverpool.

The reason that we don't should be apparent to all to see. The money excuse is just that, a poor excuse.

Don't accept the mediocre!
Anto Byrne
665   Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:24:27

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It's important that we can put out a side capable of beating the Shite on a regular basis, home and away, including wembley. We continue to be the poor relation, the small club, the plucky underdogs. Well I've had enough of this shit those pricks have dominated us for decades if we are honest. We start beating these arsewipes we start becoming the force we should be. Arrghh! I despise them with a vengeance
Phil Bellis
728   Posted 26/04/2012 at 16:45:21

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Exactly Christine
It's the Richards that just don't "get it"

Imagine Howard or Joe doing similar? - no, me neither
Steve Barr
734   Posted 26/04/2012 at 16:53:11

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Christine,

Good to see there are fans out there who not prepared to be fobbed off with weak excuses regarding "lack of finances holding us back" and preventing us from competing, and god forbid, preventing us from playing decent joined up football.

The usual counter is "well would you rather win the cup and get relegated" or just plod along in mid table mediocrity?

I am realistic and fully appreciate that one needs to be heavily financed to break into the top 4, to consistently win titles and qualify for Europe.

What I won't accept is that we cannot pull together a consistent enough level of performance resulting in the odd piece of silverware, and most certainly won't accept that we cannot beat Liverpool a few times.

We've won nowt since 1995, could have won the cup against Chelsea with the right motivation and management, and most certainly should have been in the final this year.

Is this too much to ask of a our club, even with Everton's so called lack of finances, although it can pay its manager around 65k a week!

Don't know if that's a fact but I bet he's on more than Birmingham's manager was when they won a trophy. Oh, I better expect a response along the lines of... but Birmingham got relegated!!
Joe Clitherow
746   Posted 26/04/2012 at 17:07:52

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Can someone please explain the relevance of "ten years" in the above statements which does not include a blatant anti-Moyes agenda?

Derby losses did not begin with Moyes (shamefully resting players may have done though).

The truth is that in my 40+ years watching Everton we haven't actually beaten them that many times even when we were really good. We even had a seven year period ended by Andy King when we couldn't beat them home or away, and then we didn't beat them that much after that either.

Somehow, this is a general Everton hang up, not a Moyes one. Moyes has actually delivered some of my favourite wins - the 3-0 AJ win, the Carsley and the Gosling one are up there with the King, Sharp and Ratcliffe wins. The SF hurt, but no more than the 77 SF or the 84 Milk Cup, when we were cheated by the devil worshipping gets, or the 86 Final (and 85 while we're on it) which I still cannot work out how we collapsed so spectactularly when in my opinion we had the better team.

I certainly don't agree Moyes should have rested players for the League game by any measure before I get pilloried. We should always set out to win any Derby game.

Thing is, I can put these behind me (sort of kind of maybe not completely ever) and move on to the next one, 'cos I've had lots of practice.

Mostly I think that kind of hope is what characterises the fan, the matchgoing ones anyway, because the vast majority of football fans don't experience any silverware ever and still turn up and in that respect I've been spoilt. Sorry guys but I can't really identify with some of the posters on here who say they will not set foot for this reason or that. You're entitled to your opinion but for me, whatever some of you say, it was much worse under Peter Johnson, as we spent money we didn't have, the football was worse (yes it was) and we got stuffed nearly every week.
Brian Keoghan
772   Posted 26/04/2012 at 18:10:47

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Joe Clitherow - spot on ! I have watched Everton for 60 plus years and our record against Liverpool in all competitions is incomprehensibly poor.Without checking the statistics precisely I reckon they have won over twice as many as us since 1946 and I don't know why.We have had our moments of course and been cheated by corrupt referees but by and large we have reserved some of our most abysmal displays for derby games.The recent semi was a case in point;they had recently lost to Wigan and Q.P.R. plus being held at home by Villa.,Brad Jones was in goal,an ageing Carragher was in their back four and Agger was at left back .We even took the lead ! After which the weight of the many years of derby day failure seemed to descend and compounded with gifting them with two bad.bad goals,the game became a slow death.Moyes is not to blame for our record in derby games but sure as hell,high on his list of priorities has to be a derby victory next season.Joe Royle seemed to have the knack of not giving Liverpool an easy ride and my theory was that he was not impressed with history. Our current man in charge should take a leaf out of Joe's back catalogue at the next opportunity.
Paul David
778   Posted 26/04/2012 at 19:17:48

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Joe & Brian

I havent been watching Everton as long as either of you and as you point out Everton have always lost to Liverpool but in them years when we went a long time without a victory I bet it wasnt for the lack of trying.

My main problem with Moyes in the last two derbies is his total disregard for the fans feelings,it is totally inexcusable to throw a derby then to follow it up with a gutless display at Wembley.I'll never forgive Moyes for that.
Jamie Barlow
789   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:03:19

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Throw a derby?

By picking eleven players who were capable of getting a result.
Paul David
793   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:25:25

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Yeah Jamie your right,them players were capable of getting a result.Thats why we got beat 3-0 by a Liverpool team that had only won 1 league game so far that year.
Chris Thornton
795   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:21:29

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Just to add to Joe and Brian's points: the 1970 championship side managed to lose the home derby 3-0 (Sandy Brown's famous own goal). The most inept derby defeat I've ever seen was the 5-0 at Anfield in the 1965-66 season. Even the 1963 championship side could only manage two draws. It's just bizarre that we rarely do that well against them, even when we have a better team - which I now believe is the case.
Jamie Barlow
799   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:31:57

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That's right Paul, we did get beat 3-0 and we were awful but we're talking about one of the worst Liverpool team I have seen in my lifetime.

The players on the pitch that night were capable of getting some sort of result.

Either that, or Moyes got tactics wrong, or the players bottled it (my view). Saying Moyes threw the game is complete bullshit.
Paul David
801   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:40:17

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He clearly sacrificed that game just for a home quater final tie against Sunderland and he did not care about the consequences.
Phil Bellis
802   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:43:06

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The last Everton manager who had to (not chose to) field a below-strength side at Anfield was Harry and we won 4 - 0
Paul David
803   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:52:54

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Phil I wasnt around then but you said yourself he did not chose to do it.I dont know the curcumstances of that game but if he could have fielded a full strenght side would he?
Jamie Barlow
804   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:55:28

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He didn't sacrifice anything Paul. He put out a weaker team than usual but one that he thought would get a some kind of result against a shit team.

Everyone of the players he picked should have been fighting to be regular starters but they choked.

To say Moyes threw the game is ridiculous.
Brian Waring
805   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:59:49

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Jamie (#799) So your view was that the players bottled it, did you think the players bottled it in the semi as well?
Phil Bellis
806   Posted 26/04/2012 at 20:59:09

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Dead right, Paul, but Harry was a hard, crafty Evertonian who would give Liverpool buggar-all
I think a young Colin Harvey played, and Morrissey and it was the first derby after Liverpool had won the League after us
We threw everything at them
I was was a kid stood on the kop with loads of other Blues and for weeks after we taunted the shower with how Everton Reserves hammered them
But that was a different era; people tell me that today you can't get players to pass a ball, run around, play with skill etc without a billionaire backer
Bollocks to that!
Paul David
807   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:01:45

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Jamie I agree the players were shit but I dont think for a second he expected (hoped more like) that line up to get a result.Even if we did get a result its still a shocking decision to field any sort of weakened team against Liverpool and shows after 10 years he has no clue what that fixture means to us.
Paul David
808   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:06:53

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Phil that sounds like a great night,one I fear I will never witness under Moyes.
Jamie Barlow
809   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:09:47

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Brian, as I said above, I do think they bottled it. It could have been the managers tactics. It could have been the manager didn't get them up for the game. I don't know. Although for a derby they shouldn't have needed much to gee them up.

I just think saying the manager threw the game is wrong.
Paul David
810   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:22:46

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Jamie out of curiosity what did you feel at the time when you heard of the line up at Anfield and would you have done something similar.
Nick Waters
812   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:09:05

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Jamie most people aren't saying that he threw the game - that's you stating a position that you can defend. The point is that he didn't put out his best team, ergo he wasn't arsed about winning it, much to the annoyance of every Evertonian (I hope).
Barry Rathbone
813   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:11:52

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From the 70s onward Liverpool beat every man and his dog and won everything but even in those times we never caved, much less threw a derby, and yes I remember those 7 years pre Andy King.

They have a better record because mostly they've had better teams, not so this time.

I see Moyess visage now and I nearly snarl, this sort of scenario was just so Moyes ? a crackpot idea reeking of fear and misjudgement compounded by abject failure in the semi.

We all prayed he'd learned and Sunderland wasn't just one of annual handful of good games ? he will never change ? when there's something on the game he's spineless.
Dan McKie
814   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:34:16

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Pep Guardiola looks like he is leaving Barca. Wonder if Moyes will be topping their list to replace him? Some people on here probably think he will be.
Paul David
815   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:37:27

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Dan never mind that I hear Guardiola got off a plane at Speke airport and asked the taxi driver to take him to Goodison.
Barry Rathbone
816   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:41:18

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Paul

He has said he wants a complete break from football so very likely to be true.
Paul David
818   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:44:15

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Barry I was just about to add to what I said but you beat me to it,being paid £65k a week with absolutely no expectations is the same as a break.
Jamie Barlow
819   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:40:24

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Paul, I was gutted. I expected him to rest some players but not as many as he did. I wouldn't have rested as many as Moyes did.

That doesn't mean Moyes deliberately sent a team out to get beat.



Nick, i never said it was most peoples opinion. My first post was to Paul. I can't really have a pop at him for not putting his best team out either as I'd have done the same thing. Like I said above, I wouldn't have changed as many though.
Paul David
821   Posted 26/04/2012 at 21:58:05

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Jamie i'm surprised you would have rested any,no one I know said anything other than our best side,maybe if it was the final at the weekend but to do it just for the quarters is a disgrace.
Jamie Barlow
828   Posted 26/04/2012 at 22:20:20

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I seem to remember quite a few on here saying they'd rest players for the Sunderland game.

You say you'll never forgive Moyes. Was it purely because it was against Liverpool or would you have felt the same if it was another team?
Paul David
830   Posted 26/04/2012 at 22:30:07

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Purely because it was Liverpool.
Mick Davies
879   Posted 27/04/2012 at 03:01:38

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If beating them isn't so important then why are almost all our songs aimed at them and their supporters?
Moyes has given Liverpool TWO lifelines this season, and KD must be rewarding his Glaswegian buddy in some way for all the favours he does for him and his kopites. It's us who have to live with the big mouthed glory hunters day in day out, so I would gladly take mid table and THAT semi final win, plus beating them at Anfield. After all, that's not beyond our capability given their totally shite record this season
Joe Green
886   Posted 27/04/2012 at 05:12:31

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The OP has a false choice. Everton have to beat Liverpool consistently to "dominate" our home market, before we can even think of being a regular top four side. I believe that Liverpool FC have understood this simple business principle for years.

Not trying to beat Liverpool at every opportunity is a big mistake.
Anto Byrne
887   Posted 27/04/2012 at 03:12:15

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They are always up for it and Moyes gambled on FA Cup sucess. A win at Anfield with a full strength side would more than likely set them up for the semi in a better frame of mind. No "underdogs"... none of this "they are better and wonderful" crap from Moyes. They deserve no respect but we roll over all too often.
Phil Bellis
921   Posted 27/04/2012 at 09:09:56

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Jamie
"That doesn't mean Moyes deliberately sent a team out to get beat"
No manager who understood the Everton ethos would ever field other than the best available side against Liverpool
He'd have to be so far up himself he couldn't see or, worse, bother about the prospect of the pain supporters would suffer if defeated, never mind bloody trounced

You just don't get it, do you?
Not your fault, you simply, like all of us us, are a product of your background, upbringing and experience

Having said that, I know so many young Blues who are as biased, passionate and downright pig- headed as us arl gits for whom Everton Football Club is the second most important thing in our lives

Arl arse motto: "Always have, always will"
(good title for a song, that)
Brian Keoghan
090   Posted 27/04/2012 at 18:46:55

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Barry 813 - take your point about the 1970's but being old enough to remember Liverpool in the second division when we were in the first,we still fared badly in the "Floodlit cup"games.These games were arranged each season(on a home and away basis)in the absence of official derby games.They were taken seriously with full teams plus large crowds and yes,Liverpool took the lion's share of victories.It has now become something of a mental block;Liverpool expect to win and we expect to lose.Things have to change !

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