Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag

Europa League

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I know this is really clutching at straws for some reward for this season, but if Newcastle finish 4th and Chelsea win the Champions League do we into the Europa League?

My understanding is this:

  • The Champions League gets 4 entries (But can have 5 if the winners finish outside the top 4 – i.e Liverpool in 2005).
  • The Europa League gets 3 (for 5th, FA Cup and League Cup winners.)
But if the FA cup finalists are both in Europe already by other means, 6th place gets that Europa League spot. But that would be Chelsea who would be in the Champions League in this scenario!

Would we get an entry for 7th in that case?
Adam Wareing, Liverpool     Posted 25/04/2012 at 16:47:13

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Mike Oates
434   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:03:52

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Can the experts out there confirm that we can no longer qualify for Europe next season? As I see it:

Champions League - Man U, Man C, Arsenal, probably Newcastle

Europa Cup - Liverpool (League Cup) , Chelsea (FA Cup Winners or Runner Up) Spurs as next best placed Premiership club.

Dont know quite what happens if Chelsea win Champions League but I cant see 5 clubs in Europe from England, do Newcastle still qualify or will they end up in Europa League ?

Amanda Huddleston
435   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:04:48

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IF (big if) CFC win the Champions league a, am I right in thinking we get a Euro spot (should the table stay as it is?).

They have a place no matter what via FA cup and our dear neighbours via Mickey Mouse cup.

Can anyone confirm / explain the possible permatutaions ?

Dennis Stevens
436   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:07:21

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EFC aren't going to climb the table so we won't qualify regardless of whatever else happens. If Chelsea win CL they qualify as winners & so 4th place won't qualify for CL, only Europa - no extra place as it's not RS!
Paul David
437   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:09:41

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4 teams only in champ league,if chelsea win then 4th place drops out into the europa league,we can not get into europe.
Lyndon Lloyd
438   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:06:06

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The Champions League gets 4 entries (But can have 5 if the winners finish outside the top 4

UEFA changed the rules after pandering to Liverpool that year so England can only have a maximum of four Champions League entrants. That's why Newcastle are crapping themselves over Chelsea winning the CL because if the Barcodes finish 4th, they'll only get the Europa League.

From what I've been able to work out, if the table finished the way it is now and Chelsea won the CL:

United, City, Arsenal and Chelsea would get the CL spots;

Newcastle would get the EL spot normally reserved for 5th, Spurs would get the FA Cup spot (because Liverpool have already qualified via the League Cup so neither FA Cup finalist would count as far as EL spots go) and Everton would then get the third EL spot in 7th. so there would be NO spot left for 7th

Paul Thomas
440   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:14:21

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Anybody know what happens if Spurs win the fair play league & have already qualified for the Europa. Is is next in the fair play league or another from the 'proper' league? Thanks
Seamus Murphy
441   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:16:27

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No Lyndon - Liverpool, Spurs and Newcastle would get the three EL places.
Dennis Stevens
442   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:13:26

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Lyndon, that's a 4th Europa spot you're giving to us. There's one each for the domestic cup winners & the top league position below CL qualifying spots. The seven qualifiers are the 6 teams above us & RS - that's not going to change other than the order & exactly which club ends up in which competition.
Lyndon Lloyd
443   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:17:52

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Yes, you're right Seamus and Dennis. I just read it back to myself! Comment amended accordingly!
Jeremy Benson
444   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:18:52

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Anyone know what happens if Man Utd are put into administration?
Lee Smith
445   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:15:35

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This has been done to death on GOT, and no one is any clearer! The only way I can see to be absolutely sure of us getting into the Europa, is to win all our last 4 games and finish on 60 points, one point above the free falling spurs!
Eugene Ruane
446   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:15:51

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Sings: "Bluuuuueizvercaaahller..."
Colin Gee
447   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:16:28

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What ever happens, 7th place won't get European football.

If Chelsea win the Champions League but finish outside the top 4 then the team that finishes fourth will go into the Europa League and Chelsea go into the Champions League.

There are only 3 Europa Leaue spots, the RS already have one, the other two will go to 5th in the League and the FA Cup Winners, no matter how many different scenarios you can come up with, its Chelsea/Newcastle or Spurs that will get those other two, whoever doesn't get the Europa League places will have qualified for the Champions League spot.
Lyndon Lloyd
450   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:28:21

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The only way I can see to be absolutely sure of us getting into the Europa, is to win all our last 4 games and finish on 60 points, one point above the free falling spurs!
That appears to be the only way. If Chelsea don't win the CL but finish 5th they will qualify for the Europa League either via the FA Cup (as winners or losers). If they finish 4th, Newcastle get the EL via 5th place.

In every scenario, the next team in the table outside the CL places that hasn't already qualified for Europe (Spurs at this point) gets the final EL spot.
Jeff Beaumont
452   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:30:27

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Lets hope we don't qualify for the Europa Cup. With our meagre squad playing all those extra games would surely affect our PL results.

Let's concentrate on getting a better start to the season.
Ray Robinson
454   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:38:51

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Don't you lot all know that if Liverpool win the two domestic cups, there is a special rule that says they qualify for the Champions League?
Richard Dodd
456   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:47:05

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Surely you are not suggesting our neighbours got special treatment in 2009?
As if......
Lyndon Lloyd
458   Posted 25/04/2012 at 18:58:28

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Anybody know what happens if Spurs win the fair play league & have already qualified for the Europa. Is is next in the fair play league or another from the 'proper' league?
Not seen this one nailed down yet but I would guess it's the next-highest Fair Play league team that would get that spot.
Colin Gee
462   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:14:03

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Ray#454 Classic!
It is just a pity that Liverpool aren't going to finish fourth as it would be some kind of justice that Chelsea win the Champions League and then push them into the Europa League, after all the crying they did after what happened in 2005.
Peter Dancer
463   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:17:51

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According to this article : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17288116 it is possible to be get a European spot if we finish 7th.

Like people have already said though. I think this would be unlikely. Our best chance is Spurs imploding.
Lyndon Lloyd
470   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:38:51

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Here's a list of the permutations via premierleague.com

In addition to the above scenarios, Everton can qualify from 7th if Chelsea lose the CL final, win the FA Cup, Liverpool finish 6th, Everton 7th and Chelsea 8th. All so unlikely it's not worth pondering.

The one aspect of this I didn't realise until reading that page was that the FA Cup slot trumps the League Cup even for the runners-up. In other words, even if Liverpool lost the FA Cup Final (and Chelsea have already qualified by other means), the League Cup slot still passes to the next-highest League placing.
Dennis Stevens
477   Posted 25/04/2012 at 19:49:12

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I can't see how that would work Lyndon. The other EL slot would still go to the 5th place club, there's still no 4th EL slot for us. To qualify we would have to overtake Spurs, regardless of what happens elsewhere. It's not mathematically possible for us to qualify from 7th as Spurs would have to drop to 8th & that can no longer happen.
Lyndon Lloyd
482   Posted 25/04/2012 at 20:09:19

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You're correct, Denis. I was saying that Chelsea would be finishing 8th but the permutation that works for Everton where Chelsea LOSE the Champions League Final but WIN the FA Cup Final relies on them finishing 5th.

So, definitively, we're back to one scenario: we win all 4, Spurs lose all 4

Denis Richardson
484   Posted 25/04/2012 at 20:11:34

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Think to avoid massive brain cell loss, the easiest way to look at it is that there are max 4 CL places and 3 EL league places (excluding the fair play). We can definitely get nothing from either of the cups so we would either have to finish at least 6th (assuming the RS are below us) or finish 7th but the RS would have to finish above us (as they are guranteed the EL already)..

I.e. one of Spurs, barcodes or Chelsea would have to have a massive implosion and finish 8th......in short, no European tour for the blues next year.

On another note, I would actually feel sorry for the barcodes if they manage 4th only for Chelsea to win the CL - they deserve it next year given how they've played so far (admittedly they have not made it yet).
Adam Bennett
485   Posted 25/04/2012 at 20:34:41

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To get into Europe this season we will have to finish sixth.

That is not going to happen.

End of thread.

Goodnight all.
Dennis Stevens
489   Posted 25/04/2012 at 20:49:38

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Adam, even 6th wouldn't be enough if we get there by overhauling Chelsea in the league & then they win either of their cup finals. However, I agree that we won't finish 6th. Oh, & goodnight - you go to bed rather early.
Jamie Tulacz
490   Posted 25/04/2012 at 20:29:10

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Not sure I'd particularly want to be in the Europa. A pain in the arse with a lot of matches for not very much reward imo. Seemed like a pretty tough competition this season as well, judging by how City and United fared
Clive Lewis
506   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:45:17

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I was under the impression that if Chelsea finish 4 th and win the Champions League, an extra place is made available to the Champions League. Therefore the team finishing 5th get it, leaving 3 places for Europa League FA Cup winners/ runners up, the Micky Mouse Cup winners and the Premier League place 6th. Considering that will be Chelsea after beating Liverpool, an extra place seventh is made available. Is that not the case, when reading the BBC article? That's what I concluded.
Ian Edwards
507   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:48:17

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David Moyes ? "If we qualify for the Europa League then we have exceeded all our expectations.... no one expected us to finish higher than tenth and reach a cup semi final where we played extremely well but lost due to two defensive mistakes. But we're not kidding ourselves on... we were underdogs and will be if we qualify for Europe. ...but if we qualify for Europe we will try to win every game... I've never gone anywhere and sat back... I would never go anywhere and play one up top ...."

More utter bollocks ad nauseum.
Clive Lewis
510   Posted 25/04/2012 at 22:59:33

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Just to add something else wasnt it the case in 1995 when the Red Shite was allowed in and the Europa League placings went down to seven, surely this could not have not been a one-off, it would seem quite strange just to give special treatment for 1 year to help the Dark Side.
Nick Entwistle
523   Posted 25/04/2012 at 23:58:32

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Well done Ian, we almost had the first thread for ten days that didn't bash Moyes. Thank god you're here!
Nick Entwistle
524   Posted 26/04/2012 at 00:06:34

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Clive, back then there was the ECWC to qualify for as well, and if I'm not mistaken Arsenal won it the year before against Palma so would have been automatic entrants.
Andrew James
526   Posted 26/04/2012 at 00:40:04

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We don't want to be in the bloody thing. A dozen games before we get to the QF? Not with our squad size.

No, it was novelty fun back in 2007 when we had a better team but not now thanks. We need to get the basics right like not being in the bottom 4 or 5 in October.
Andrew James
527   Posted 26/04/2012 at 00:54:51

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@ Ian Edwards

What a load of nonsense. Moyes has a decent enough record in Europe if you forget Dinamo away. We bossed the group in 07/08 and were unlucky to go out in the end. In 09/10 we did ok until an injury ravaged and transitional side ran into better opposition.

Don't you remember the goal tally from the 07/08 European campaign? You have probably chosen to forget it and fall back on some tedious attack on our manager which is starting to become tiresome on this website.
Clive Lewis
528   Posted 26/04/2012 at 01:03:55

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Of course I was talking about 2005, and the arm twisting involved to get the red shite a place... it's all very confusing about the Champions League etc, it seems that if taken by the word by UEFA an "extra place" is allocated to Europa League if the 5th place team takes the 4th place CL position, if this is the case then it goes to 7th.

http://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/43842-EUROPA-League-Qualification/page9
Jason Heng
529   Posted 26/04/2012 at 01:37:06

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Can we qualify via fairplay?
James Stewart
532   Posted 26/04/2012 at 02:14:34

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ermmm Andrew are you not forgetting the Portuguese embarrassments?
Adam Fenlon
544   Posted 26/04/2012 at 07:31:41

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If we play to our potential for a whole season, rather than for the second half only, then we?d make it for sure. Don?t think we deserve to finish above any of the teams currently above us so am not fussed we miss out on Europe.
Lee Smith
559   Posted 26/04/2012 at 08:50:54

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@ Jason #529 : If, and it's a big IF, England are one of the 3 teams awarded an extra place in the Europa League via the Fair Play ruling, that extra Europa League slot will not go to the 'next team in line in the Premier League' so to speak. Instead it will go to the highest plaed team in the English Fair Play Table who has not already qualified for Europe through the normal Premier League / Cup channels. The most recent Fair Play table I can find is this one http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/m...fair-play.html , which shows that there are 5 other teams above us (after 26 games played), that would get the slot before us. So unless we have been absolute angels these past 10 games, that ain't going to happen either!
Dennis Stevens
565   Posted 26/04/2012 at 09:40:00

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Andrew, the tie against Sporting was there for the winning, unfortunately we didn't turn up with the right approach yet again & handed the initiative to our opponnents & were unable to seize it back. Sadly, it's an approach we've seen all too often under Moyes.
Andrew Lawrenson
569   Posted 26/04/2012 at 09:54:19

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I think it is nigh on impossible for us to get a place in the europa league and thats fair enough our early season form means we dont merit a place, however if I was a Newcastle fan and finished 4th and lost the chance of CL football because Chelsea win it then I would be fuming.....not a Chelsea...its not there fault but at the RS for getting the rules changed when it suited them, even as we speak Mr Dogleash is trying to get into a CL spot with the reasoning that if any time that wins the micky mouse cup and reaches the FA cup final should have automatic entry to the CL if the name of the club starts with the same letter as it ends with......knowing the spineless twats at Eufa they would pamper to them!!
Jon Ferguson
573   Posted 26/04/2012 at 10:06:41

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Gutted we won't be in the Europa!!!!!! Had some great evenings watching the blues against foreign opposition. The atmosphere at Goodison was something else in some of those games. The Fiorentina game in particular was more intense than any derby I've been to.

In order to attract better players we need to play in Europe. No Europe, no progression forward. People state the extra games as a problem, but we had our best league placements (minus the 4th place finish) whilst in Europe. The confidence and momentum of a good run in Europe seeps through to the league.

Everton need the Europa league.

James Morgan
600   Posted 26/04/2012 at 11:47:28

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Let's just wait and see what happens. All these possible scenarios make my head hurt.
Chris Owens
620   Posted 26/04/2012 at 12:36:17

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Apart from Bayern Munich in the 1985 Cup Winners? Cup semi-final, which top European teams have we ever beaten? Let?s just concentrate on trying to win English league games at Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, etc.
Thomas Windsor
668   Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:51:23

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Go the pre-season friendlies abroad in the summer. I used to love going them in the 70s and 80s. That's the only way we will be going to Europe.
Will Leaf
669   Posted 26/04/2012 at 14:52:41

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Need the Rosetta Stone to figure all this out.

How about simplifying:

The champions go into the Champions League.

2nd through 5th go into the UEFA/Europa Cup.

The FA Cup and League Cup winners go into another cup competition... we could call it the Cup Winners Cup... or something...
Lee Smith
681   Posted 26/04/2012 at 15:19:36

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Will, that's just crazy talk!
Dean Adams
684   Posted 26/04/2012 at 15:26:13

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Will Leaf

That is a bit revolutionary for those in charge of football!!!!
Eugene Ruane
713   Posted 26/04/2012 at 16:08:24

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Everything we do in life, once done, becomes a memory.

If you want a few good ones to look back on, you (like me) will be gutted we're not in Europe.

Believe me, nobody looks back and thinks "Remember 2011/12 season when we didn't qualify for Europe, which possibly helped us get off to a not awful start to the season?"

Some of my best memories of the last 10 years were European trips (even had a ball in Florence and Lisbon)

As my late mother used to say 'we're a long time dead'.
Tom Bowers
759   Posted 26/04/2012 at 18:06:29

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The fair play award is shambolic. No team should qualify on that measure. This is about playing football and not having had the benefit consistantly of referreing decisions. We all know that Manure would win that every year but always being in the top 4 they never need it.
I would sooner have Everton qualify for Europe on sheer merit and then would feel confident that we would do well.
Our squad is not yet strong enough to do well but signs are that with one or two more quality signings we could be realistic contenders next season to finish in the top 4.
Steve Sweeney
824   Posted 26/04/2012 at 22:02:26

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Maybe now other clubs will begin to see what a load of crying twats the Red Shite are.

I really hope Chelsea win the Champions League, sorry for the barcodes but maybe the media and Sky will start to wake up and see what fucking Hippocrates they are.

"Always outraged, never embarrassed" ? sums the Red Shite up to a tee.
Michael Smith
534   Posted 29/04/2012 at 16:33:47

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Will we get into the Europa League if we finish 7th?
Dennis Stevens
537   Posted 29/04/2012 at 16:37:51

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No, Michael.

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