Everton News, Season 2011-12
Horne: Asking price is too high
Ex-Everton midfielder Barry Horne says that if Bill Kenwright's asking price is anywhere near the £150m quoted recently by Keith Harris then it's too high.
70 Comments: In his role as a regular expert summariser in the commentary box for Premier League games, Horne has often expressed his sympathy for Kenwright but in an article for the Echo this weekend the Welshman spells out the realities of the the Blues' plight.
"Although I always look for the positive about every aspect of the club, there is definitely a sense that we are now caught up in a downward spiral," Horne writes.
"The Blues are still losing £5m a year which is not an attractive proposition for anyone wanting to invest in the club.
"That is the first clue why Everton have not been able to find a buyer and the second is — on the back of Keith Harris recently saying the club would look to sell for around £150m — it must be overpriced.
"In the past I have stuck up for Bill Kenwright and Robert Elstone but the only thing you can do to get someone to buy what you are selling is by dropping your price."
Original Source: Liverpool Echo
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If this continues, we be lucky to get £150,000 ... sell the club and take that negative clown Moyes with you.
Who needs Cantona when we've Barry Horne...
Keep it up Barry, you may end up saving us twice...
The Echo gives them a dig as well, let's hope the tide is turning.
Keep it up Barry, you may end up saving us twice...
The Echo gives them a dig as well, let's hope the tide is turning.
Who needs Cantona when we've got Barry Horrrrrne????????/
Well said Barry Horne. I don't see EFC being worth £150 million, or anything remotely approaching that amount. If Kenwright is the true blue he says he is, then he should go.
If someone was prepared to pay him for his shares, what he paid for them plus whatever inflation figure was appropriate, that would be fair. Dont forget, when Kenwright and Gregg took control of EFC, the debt was nothing like what it is now.
I think if he doesn't get out of the club, we're on a one-way ticket to oblivion.
If someone was prepared to pay him for his shares, what he paid for them plus whatever inflation figure was appropriate, that would be fair. Dont forget, when Kenwright and Gregg took control of EFC, the debt was nothing like what it is now.
I think if he doesn't get out of the club, we're on a one-way ticket to oblivion.
Well said Barry Horne. I said the same myself. The club is worth no more than £70-80M tops.
If it was sold for say £80m and BK owns 25% or so, wouldn't he get £20m. Also he would have the ongoing profits from his very successful theatre business.
Is that not enough for anyone? Especially if you love the club so much. But then again, the other 75% of shareholders can hold out for more I suppose. So maybe it isn't just BK but all 4 of them..
Is that not enough for anyone? Especially if you love the club so much. But then again, the other 75% of shareholders can hold out for more I suppose. So maybe it isn't just BK but all 4 of them..
Great to see an article stating the bloody obvious.
I live in Spain and keep getting told by fellow Blues in the bar that Bill is a great Blue and would happily sell the club for what he paid for it. Personally, I don't believe all that cojones, I also don't mind if Bill wants to make a small profit ? after all, he did have the cojones to put his house on the line etc. I just wish for once he would tell the truth and let fellow Evertonians the true price he wants.
I understand that he has to negotiate to get the deal required to keep himself, Woods, Earl and Green happy, but something needs to happen NOW ? the club stinks and changes need to be made now!!!!!!
I understand that he has to negotiate to get the deal required to keep himself, Woods, Earl and Green happy, but something needs to happen NOW ? the club stinks and changes need to be made now!!!!!!
Maybe it's worth getting the opinion of an expert on business valuations rather than Barry Horne ?
Steve,
That's what the BU have been asking amongst other things but according to Blue Bill and the other idiots running the club they are the best "sellers" for our club!
That's what the BU have been asking amongst other things but according to Blue Bill and the other idiots running the club they are the best "sellers" for our club!
Yeah it makes you wonder, Tommy, doesn't it? Same spiel from the club every year around about season ticket renewal time and when the accounts are published.
I know there are a few correspondents on here who have the nous to value the club realistically, based on its turnover and debts etc... perhaps one of them could come up with a figure along with reasons behind that figure. Barry Horne's article is pointless because it's based on guesswork at best.
I know there are a few correspondents on here who have the nous to value the club realistically, based on its turnover and debts etc... perhaps one of them could come up with a figure along with reasons behind that figure. Barry Horne's article is pointless because it's based on guesswork at best.
If Bill and his mates paid c.£850 per share, why should they expect c,£4.300 per share now? Yes I know that the Premier League is now financially bigger than ever but, Bill, please do not take the piss. Let go if you love the club, just move along a couple of seats. The club needs fans like you, but I think we need people who know how to run huge companies at the helm of EVERTON FC.
Steve, the reason I think that this is significant is beccause Barry Horne is one of those ex-players who is trotted out by the club from time to time to tell us how well run the club is and how we are in fact really lucky to have Kenwright.
It is like Nigel has said at No 1, there is a sense of the tide turning slightly. Furthermore there can only be a few reasons why the club has not been sold: 1 the asking price is too high; 2 - it isn't actually for sale (the "Kirkby Defence"). 3- we are close to financial collapse and the vultures are waiting to get us knock-down.
We need to corner Kenwright and pin him down in order to get at the truth and so make a sale more likely. Comments like this of Barry Horne's set a trend in the media and, yes, make it a little easier for that rag the Echo and other media outlets to "investigate". Let's hope other commentators and pundits now chip in.
It is like Nigel has said at No 1, there is a sense of the tide turning slightly. Furthermore there can only be a few reasons why the club has not been sold: 1 the asking price is too high; 2 - it isn't actually for sale (the "Kirkby Defence"). 3- we are close to financial collapse and the vultures are waiting to get us knock-down.
We need to corner Kenwright and pin him down in order to get at the truth and so make a sale more likely. Comments like this of Barry Horne's set a trend in the media and, yes, make it a little easier for that rag the Echo and other media outlets to "investigate". Let's hope other commentators and pundits now chip in.
Points taken Chris, the Echo could surely come up with a proper valuation of the club and a very accurate one at that, I know this because an arm of the group they are owned by, deals specifically with valuing businesses, buying them and then selling them on for profit, you would assume the Echo {if they had the bollocks} would use the expertise that exists within their own organisation.
Steve,
Part of the problem is the Echo are shit scared of the Mighty EFC Spin Team, they have on numerous occasions been banned bythe club.
Hopefully like the emails scandal we can only wait in hope that another smoking gun appears and forces BK out. You see part of the problem is that BK still has a significant strong support from the fans even after reading and digesting the BU interview, when you look at the fallout over the interview even though he came across as a bumbling idiot and a full on lying shit all his supporters came out fighting.
Part of the problem is the Echo are shit scared of the Mighty EFC Spin Team, they have on numerous occasions been banned bythe club.
Hopefully like the emails scandal we can only wait in hope that another smoking gun appears and forces BK out. You see part of the problem is that BK still has a significant strong support from the fans even after reading and digesting the BU interview, when you look at the fallout over the interview even though he came across as a bumbling idiot and a full on lying shit all his supporters came out fighting.
I am just waiting for some dick to use the old "you need half a billion to buy Everton" defence. New ground, £200m on players blah fucking blah.
Or my particular favourite: "No-one is buying football clubs."
Anyone with half a brain cell knows why the club hasn't been sold. Greed. The contradictions from BK's mouth roll off his tongue.
"There are always three or four people looking at investing in us, and that's the case now, we are talking to three or four interested parties." He should be called "The Riddler".
To think some dull fuckers clapped him at the match... They should be ashamed of themselves.
Or my particular favourite: "No-one is buying football clubs."
Anyone with half a brain cell knows why the club hasn't been sold. Greed. The contradictions from BK's mouth roll off his tongue.
"There are always three or four people looking at investing in us, and that's the case now, we are talking to three or four interested parties." He should be called "The Riddler".
To think some dull fuckers clapped him at the match... They should be ashamed of themselves.
Dave 10.
If you bought £135 worth of British Gas shares in 1986 {if you see Sid tell him!} they would now be worth £1720.00, that's because the "market" says that's what they can sell them for.
I'm not sure that Kenwright wants to make a massive profit on us, neither would I expect him to take a loss, it's all speculation and premature supposition as far as I can see at the moment.
If you bought £135 worth of British Gas shares in 1986 {if you see Sid tell him!} they would now be worth £1720.00, that's because the "market" says that's what they can sell them for.
I'm not sure that Kenwright wants to make a massive profit on us, neither would I expect him to take a loss, it's all speculation and premature supposition as far as I can see at the moment.
Kevin 14.
How much do you think would be needed then to buy the club ? bearing in mind that the debt would have to be cleared on top of what is paid for the shares, and you would assume the buyer would want a return on his outlay, so that would mean bringing more money into the club somehow, bigger gates? better players ? how much to achieve this in your opinion ?
How much do you think would be needed then to buy the club ? bearing in mind that the debt would have to be cleared on top of what is paid for the shares, and you would assume the buyer would want a return on his outlay, so that would mean bringing more money into the club somehow, bigger gates? better players ? how much to achieve this in your opinion ?
The clubs value to the owners would rise or fall according to the teams success or lack of. It is not logical for them to deliberately let it run down.
A catastrophic fall in gates and or relegation might force their hand.
Perhaps the Moyseahs success in avoiding the drop is condemning us to an overly long drawn out agony.
A catastrophic fall in gates and or relegation might force their hand.
Perhaps the Moyseahs success in avoiding the drop is condemning us to an overly long drawn out agony.
To all those people who post the club isn't worth £150m, how much is it worth then? Don't tell me, you don't know....
Brilliant.
If the club went down the IPO route and issued 100m shares to the public, how much would you pay to own 100 shares? Just think about it, if it was your own cash how much would you invest? Different ball game if its your own cash instead of someone elses isnt it.
Brilliant.
If the club went down the IPO route and issued 100m shares to the public, how much would you pay to own 100 shares? Just think about it, if it was your own cash how much would you invest? Different ball game if its your own cash instead of someone elses isnt it.
£100
Rob Walden @ 18.
Shares currently sell on the open market for approximately £1250 each and there are a total of 35,000 so that is a starting figure of £43.75 Million.
Then there are debts to take into account and the fact that it loses money every year, so it isn't worth anywhere near £150m.
Shares currently sell on the open market for approximately £1250 each and there are a total of 35,000 so that is a starting figure of £43.75 Million.
Then there are debts to take into account and the fact that it loses money every year, so it isn't worth anywhere near £150m.
Steven Flavin - which public market is that then? Don't think so.
Brian - thats seems are reasonable price to me too, but then would we find another 999,999 people willing to buy a 100 shares for £100 needed to buy all the 100m shares?
Rob Walden.
Ring Blankstone Sington stockbrokers on 0151-236-8200 on Monday morning and ask them, or better still go on their website now and you will see the EFC logo and information on to how to buy shares in Everton.
I have recently bought shares from them.
Ring Blankstone Sington stockbrokers on 0151-236-8200 on Monday morning and ask them, or better still go on their website now and you will see the EFC logo and information on to how to buy shares in Everton.
I have recently bought shares from them.
Rob, I was just replying directly to your question of how much I'd pay for 100 shares. Actually I'd probably buy 1000, and no doubt some individuals would buy many more ! I think if we had an issue at that price we'd find it fully subscribed. Won't happen though.......sigh
Thanks Steven. I actually know Blankstones and will make enquiries.
Agree Brian, I was using a simplistic example. I would like to see if EFC could go public, it could be the answer. I can only assume the current Board have ruled it out as a non starter. They'd still need to find some financial institutions to underwrite it and I suspect that this would be the problem with this route, but I don't know.
Rob
the billionaires on the board could underwrite it but they "dont want to dilute their shareholding" which is why it will never happen.
For a sale to take place it will take a massive overvaluation )i.e 150 to 180 million) or a major moneymaking opportunity like DK.
Green and Earl are parasites and will want their pound of flesh unless they are hounded out by the supporters.
Cant see anu of those things happening unfortunately and neither can Moyes.
the billionaires on the board could underwrite it but they "dont want to dilute their shareholding" which is why it will never happen.
For a sale to take place it will take a massive overvaluation )i.e 150 to 180 million) or a major moneymaking opportunity like DK.
Green and Earl are parasites and will want their pound of flesh unless they are hounded out by the supporters.
Cant see anu of those things happening unfortunately and neither can Moyes.
Steve(19) - BK is supposedly the biggest blue around, he tells us. If that is true then he should be happy to sell the club on for a fee which is essentially what he paid for it + inflation.
If he's a businessman and looking to get full market value from it, then fair enough, but at least he should stop all the bollocks about being a blue and wanting whats best for EFC. He wants whats best for BK.
If he's a businessman and looking to get full market value from it, then fair enough, but at least he should stop all the bollocks about being a blue and wanting whats best for EFC. He wants whats best for BK.
Total= 35,000 100.0% £70,000,000.
Based on £2,000 share value
Shares market price back in 2006
Based on £2,000 share value
Shares market price back in 2006
Steve, the reason I think that this is significant is beccause Barry Horne is one of those ex-players who is trotted out by the club from time to time to tell us how well run the club is and how we are in fact really lucky to have Kenwright.
It is like Nigel has said at No 1, there is a sense of the tide turning slightly. Furthermore there can only be a few reasons why the club has not been sold: 1 the asking price is too high; 2 - it isn't actually for sale (the "Kirkby Defence"). 3- we are close to financial collapse and the vultures are waiting to get us knock-down.
We need to corner Kenwright and pin him down in order to get at the truth and so make a sale more likely. Comments like this of Barry Horne's set a trend in the media and, yes, make it a little easier for that rag the Echo and other media outlets to "investigate". Let's hope other commentators and pundits now chip in.
It is like Nigel has said at No 1, there is a sense of the tide turning slightly. Furthermore there can only be a few reasons why the club has not been sold: 1 the asking price is too high; 2 - it isn't actually for sale (the "Kirkby Defence"). 3- we are close to financial collapse and the vultures are waiting to get us knock-down.
We need to corner Kenwright and pin him down in order to get at the truth and so make a sale more likely. Comments like this of Barry Horne's set a trend in the media and, yes, make it a little easier for that rag the Echo and other media outlets to "investigate". Let's hope other commentators and pundits now chip in.
Dave Vickers #4, I don't see anyone responding to you, but that was the terrace chant when Barry played for us. In fact I think it was still around for a couple of years after he left!
The club have refused to put a price on the club. Understandable to a point, but the Keith Harris and "email-gate" quotes reveal he is indeed seeking £100m+, for a business with c.£45m debts, off-balance sheet loans, and consequent impacting of revenue streams.
So for a £20m purchase, with debts at the time of around £5m, I'd say a 500%+ return is the least he can ask for?
(For those still not quite awake, that last sentence may be a little sarcastic)
The club have refused to put a price on the club. Understandable to a point, but the Keith Harris and "email-gate" quotes reveal he is indeed seeking £100m+, for a business with c.£45m debts, off-balance sheet loans, and consequent impacting of revenue streams.
So for a £20m purchase, with debts at the time of around £5m, I'd say a 500%+ return is the least he can ask for?
(For those still not quite awake, that last sentence may be a little sarcastic)
BK and his mates got their shares for a song.... well below the actual going rate at the time. The share value has dropped dramatically since....... yet some believe they should be handsomely remunerated despite having sold all the club's assets off and adding no real value? It would appear agent Johnson had greater honour when considering the club's future than our own blue-blood. BK should be happy to get his cash back considering his record on delivering nothing..... giving the the next lot the chance to invest for real progress as opposed to rewarding others for failure.
Matt@34
Thanks Matt, i'm aware of that, in those days I used to get to c.30 live games a season. I know I had a few Mahou's watching the game yesterday but I would swear I was the 2nd or 3rd post last night before Roberts post @3, the question marks where just the end of my sentence. Maybe the Mahou is stronger than I thought !!! or I just can't read. COYB
Thanks Matt, i'm aware of that, in those days I used to get to c.30 live games a season. I know I had a few Mahou's watching the game yesterday but I would swear I was the 2nd or 3rd post last night before Roberts post @3, the question marks where just the end of my sentence. Maybe the Mahou is stronger than I thought !!! or I just can't read. COYB
Steve #18, using the same logic by selling the shares in the Club at market value it's worth around £45 million.
BUT, there's also £47 million net debt. Why should a new buyer pay off the debt of the old owners on top of the purchase price?and the net liabilities are £33 million on top of the debt.
AND the Club is losing money every year it doesn't sell assets, of which all that remains are the players.
BUT, there's also £47 million net debt. Why should a new buyer pay off the debt of the old owners on top of the purchase price?and the net liabilities are £33 million on top of the debt.
AND the Club is losing money every year it doesn't sell assets, of which all that remains are the players.
Jay #30, DK was never going to be a major moneymaking opportunity as was shown in the public inquiry.
Now if it was a typo and you meant KD, that's a different story!
Now if it was a typo and you meant KD, that's a different story!
Tom 35. you say,
"BK and his mates got their shares for a song.... well below the actual going rate at the time. The share value has dropped dramatically since...."
None of that makes any sense to me, perhaps you could explain the first bit of your statement re; for a song?, and, how can the value of shares drop on a business who's turnover has grown dramatically and will continue to do so while we all carry on paying our Sky subscriptions, and the potential for growth is there for all to see.
"BK and his mates got their shares for a song.... well below the actual going rate at the time. The share value has dropped dramatically since...."
None of that makes any sense to me, perhaps you could explain the first bit of your statement re; for a song?, and, how can the value of shares drop on a business who's turnover has grown dramatically and will continue to do so while we all carry on paying our Sky subscriptions, and the potential for growth is there for all to see.
^Because turnover isn't profit Steve.
You're right Eric, but from a business point of view, knowing that you are guaranteed an income of £50M per year without selling a single ticket is an attractive proposition to anyone, add to that, a customer base that is largely loyal no matter how the team performs and would grow with success on the pitch.
Turnover isn't profit but how that turnover is managed can lead to profits if done correctly.
Turnover isn't profit but how that turnover is managed can lead to profits if done correctly.
Steve #19 ? "you assume the buyer would want a return on his outlay."
Why, Steve? YOU have made that assumption.
Sheik Mansour will never make a return on his outlay. Nor Abramovich.
I am sure you can find some more excuses for this board if you look hard enough.
Why, Steve? YOU have made that assumption.
Sheik Mansour will never make a return on his outlay. Nor Abramovich.
I am sure you can find some more excuses for this board if you look hard enough.
The accounts look awful to tell the truth. Record revenues, but matchday income down 20% (despite inflation) in two years. We rely heavily on Sky.
Don't wanta be negative, but does Liverpool have a large public sector for jobs? I'm guessing yes, and we know what's gonna happen to them. Govt says private sector (which happens to be in a lot more debt than the govt - little reported fact) will compensate. Yeah, like other jobs popped up in the 80s when Tate&Lyle etc closed. That doesn't spell rising revenues at the ground.
The only hope is a benefactor in the modern game, but the least likely is one willing to plough dosh into a new ground as well as a team.
I get tired of those thinking our income will just grow. I don't see it. It is only the Sky money that keeps us afloat. If that Golden Egg ever disappeared, we'd be screwed. And what is the consequence of the recent victory of a pub landlady to get TV football from elsewhere? Less dosh, perhaps.
I may be proved wrong, but I reckon TV money will become competitive, not a monopoly as it is now. Jeez, we all know we can get live games for free on the Net. So unless we have the ground (and there's no sign as yet) we will do well to stay in the top half without a daft billionaire.
Don't wanta be negative, but does Liverpool have a large public sector for jobs? I'm guessing yes, and we know what's gonna happen to them. Govt says private sector (which happens to be in a lot more debt than the govt - little reported fact) will compensate. Yeah, like other jobs popped up in the 80s when Tate&Lyle etc closed. That doesn't spell rising revenues at the ground.
The only hope is a benefactor in the modern game, but the least likely is one willing to plough dosh into a new ground as well as a team.
I get tired of those thinking our income will just grow. I don't see it. It is only the Sky money that keeps us afloat. If that Golden Egg ever disappeared, we'd be screwed. And what is the consequence of the recent victory of a pub landlady to get TV football from elsewhere? Less dosh, perhaps.
I may be proved wrong, but I reckon TV money will become competitive, not a monopoly as it is now. Jeez, we all know we can get live games for free on the Net. So unless we have the ground (and there's no sign as yet) we will do well to stay in the top half without a daft billionaire.
Richard 32
Total= 35,000 100.0% £70,000,000.
Based on £2,000 share value
Shares market price back in 2006
-------------------------
And the stock market is down 10-20% since then, and that is with the Bank of England printing money and giving it to the banks to invest FFS.
Total= 35,000 100.0% £70,000,000.
Based on £2,000 share value
Shares market price back in 2006
-------------------------
And the stock market is down 10-20% since then, and that is with the Bank of England printing money and giving it to the banks to invest FFS.
Steve #41 but we've got a guaranteed expenditure of £55 million to go with that turnover (which does include ticket sales by the way) and no assets to sell except players.
Steve #39
I bought a share while PJ was in control.... the going rate was £3-3.5k per share they had been higher previously. BK secured many of his shares at the time of the new issue..... and then when PJ relinquished control it was at a substantially lower price too. All of which contradicts your theory. The current share price is readily available, as already stated.
I bought a share while PJ was in control.... the going rate was £3-3.5k per share they had been higher previously. BK secured many of his shares at the time of the new issue..... and then when PJ relinquished control it was at a substantially lower price too. All of which contradicts your theory. The current share price is readily available, as already stated.
Tom,
I think your memory may be playing some tricks....
TBH bought out Johnson for £857 a share, but that was after I think two rights issues under Johnson that increased the number of shares from 2,500 to 35,000. The original price I have listed for those 2,500 shares is £5,000, although this article from 1994 suggests that may have been high:
There was a subsequent five-for-one rights issue in 1996 that took the total of shares issued to 30,000, based on a share price of £500. So True Blue Holdings (aka Kenwright & Co) paying £857 per share four years later was hardly Going for a Song.
I think your memory may be playing some tricks....
TBH bought out Johnson for £857 a share, but that was after I think two rights issues under Johnson that increased the number of shares from 2,500 to 35,000. The original price I have listed for those 2,500 shares is £5,000, although this article from 1994 suggests that may have been high:
Prior to the rights issue Everton had 2,500 shares in issue. These are rarely traded but, when they are, change hands for around £2,600. The one-for-one rights issue was priced at £4,000 per share. The price discouraged shareholders from taking up their rights and was calculated to ensure that Johnson pays a price which "places an acceptable value on the company".The memory of Johnson still sparks a lot of flack from Evertonians, and I was as guilty as anyone back then, but his act of doing a Rights Issue, and buying up all of the newly created shares, pumped £10M into the club ? not into the hands of old shareholders (in this case, the Moores family).
There was a subsequent five-for-one rights issue in 1996 that took the total of shares issued to 30,000, based on a share price of £500. So True Blue Holdings (aka Kenwright & Co) paying £857 per share four years later was hardly Going for a Song.
The shares are listed, but the market is small and operates on a small matched basis. Buying or selling a large number of shares is a little different than Bill's control piece with his fellow 'consortium'.
If he is after £150M for a club with no assets, £50M of debt, a team that needs £50M spending it on it, and a stadium that is past its best, he is clearly deluded ? whether Keith Harris tells him or not. Randy Lerner bought a debt-free club, with a decent stadium for £63m, so why would anyone pay much more for the Mighty Blues???
If he is after £150M for a club with no assets, £50M of debt, a team that needs £50M spending it on it, and a stadium that is past its best, he is clearly deluded ? whether Keith Harris tells him or not. Randy Lerner bought a debt-free club, with a decent stadium for £63m, so why would anyone pay much more for the Mighty Blues???
I think my paying over £3k only a year or so before (after the rights issues) via Blackstones would suggest that £857 was a bargain. The £500 price was via the rights issue process only... and I don't remember any shares trading at or anywhere near that price. I had been following the price for several years before I bought.......
Regardless, much of BK's stock will indeed have come during both rights issues and the subsequent release by PJ. A total that would be substantially less than even the current share value.
Regardless, much of BK's stock will indeed have come during both rights issues and the subsequent release by PJ. A total that would be substantially less than even the current share value.
Tom,
I think Blankstones play silly buggers with the price they quote at times, to be honest. But it depends which rights issue. After the first (1994) and £3k is a good price. After the second (1996) and £3k was around five times too much.
£3k * 35,000 = £105M. There is no way Everton were worth anything like that in the 1990s... Do the maths!
£857 * 35,000 = ~£30M, which seems to have been a reasonable price to pay for Everton (with no debt to speak of) in 2000... although I know Johnson had been asking a lot more... and there were no other buyers.
History repeating? Perhaps... we shall see... or not!
I think Blankstones play silly buggers with the price they quote at times, to be honest. But it depends which rights issue. After the first (1994) and £3k is a good price. After the second (1996) and £3k was around five times too much.
£3k * 35,000 = £105M. There is no way Everton were worth anything like that in the 1990s... Do the maths!
£857 * 35,000 = ~£30M, which seems to have been a reasonable price to pay for Everton (with no debt to speak of) in 2000... although I know Johnson had been asking a lot more... and there were no other buyers.
History repeating? Perhaps... we shall see... or not!
Kevin 42: I'm not making excuses for the board, I asked you what you think is a realistic value of the club.
Eric 45: Our income from Sky is circa £50M, gate receipts approx £21M, other income approx £9M.
Tom #46: I think Michael's already answered the point I made, my understanding was TBH paid £357 per share over and above the original rights issue price.
Eric 45: Our income from Sky is circa £50M, gate receipts approx £21M, other income approx £9M.
Tom #46: I think Michael's already answered the point I made, my understanding was TBH paid £357 per share over and above the original rights issue price.
Steve.... to get that £500 share you already had to own one priced at £3-5k and you were then offered the option to buy I think 6 of them. That's the nature of rights issues.... it doesn't then necessarliy mean the share price drops to that value. The fact that I never had that option proves that I did indeed get mine after the second rights issue.
To buy a share at that time would've cost you the same as mine..... independently or via blackstones. I did both. The price came down quite dramatically afterwards.....
And Michael, yes PJ did indeed state some ridiculously high estimates of club values and might have stood by it had his position not become untenable.
To buy a share at that time would've cost you the same as mine..... independently or via blackstones. I did both. The price came down quite dramatically afterwards.....
And Michael, yes PJ did indeed state some ridiculously high estimates of club values and might have stood by it had his position not become untenable.
I ANSWERED THIS QUESTION LAST:
35000 SHARES £2000 A SHARE BACK IN 2006... COUNT INFLATION and I`d say that on paper we are worth £100 Million... Its not underpriced and its not over priced... The problem is do you build a new team or build a new stadium first.
35000 SHARES £2000 A SHARE BACK IN 2006... COUNT INFLATION and I`d say that on paper we are worth £100 Million... Its not underpriced and its not over priced... The problem is do you build a new team or build a new stadium first.
Steve, that makes our total turnover £80 million and then our total expenditure must be £85m if we lose £5m per year.
The Macawber Principle still applies... whatever the figure.
The Macawber Principle still applies... whatever the figure.
Richard, Stocks and Shares don't follow the same rules of inflation as commodities do. If they did nobody would ever lose money on the stock market would they and we could all become millionaires buying shares.
Even if the club was sold already, I'd rather we bought some of the players we've probably been scouting for the 2 years since we last bought than rush into a Robinho situation.
Even if one of those 3 or 4 buyers did come good, the club would be silly to announce before making some signings. They seemed to pay a decent amount for George Green and could sign him outside the window, so did. They've always promised a busy January so I'm waiting until February to judge.
Even if one of those 3 or 4 buyers did come good, the club would be silly to announce before making some signings. They seemed to pay a decent amount for George Green and could sign him outside the window, so did. They've always promised a busy January so I'm waiting until February to judge.
A busy January Dan?
I didn't think we could allow any more players to leave like last January as we're bare bones as it is.
I didn't think we could allow any more players to leave like last January as we're bare bones as it is.
I'm not quite following all these accounts and economics so I won't pretend to know what's going on. All I can state are two things I observe: football is not a business to be earning profit, anywhere in the whole world.
Profit or untangible benefits/goodwill is gained from the exposure of Premier League clubs around the whole world. It would form part of a business portfolio where losses are expected from the Premier League club business unit, but gained in other areas because of the ties/synergy/exposure of the football club. If Premier Leagues clubs permitted there would be sponsors blazing all over the shorts and socks like the French Ligue or F1.
The second is the bragging rights for owning a dildo for the rich, spoilt and/or corrupt.
Profit or untangible benefits/goodwill is gained from the exposure of Premier League clubs around the whole world. It would form part of a business portfolio where losses are expected from the Premier League club business unit, but gained in other areas because of the ties/synergy/exposure of the football club. If Premier Leagues clubs permitted there would be sponsors blazing all over the shorts and socks like the French Ligue or F1.
The second is the bragging rights for owning a dildo for the rich, spoilt and/or corrupt.
Steve #51,
Kenwright trades on being the biggest Blue there is. I don't have a problem with that, but then he wants to make as much profit as possible from a club he has ruined.
As far as a valuation goes, how could you ask anyone for that figure when they don't have access to any contracts, loans, mortgage details etc. The club didn't even know they could not build on their own ground, because there were issues with mortgages.
Kenwright trades on being the biggest Blue there is. I don't have a problem with that, but then he wants to make as much profit as possible from a club he has ruined.
As far as a valuation goes, how could you ask anyone for that figure when they don't have access to any contracts, loans, mortgage details etc. The club didn't even know they could not build on their own ground, because there were issues with mortgages.
Kevin: fair enough mate, your first comment on this thread sort of implied that you knew what the realistic price was, as opposed to the half billion oft spouted, anyway the reason Ive been making various comments was to try and promote some debate without the usual stance of pro or anti board, which tends to stifle the dialogue in my opinion.
Roberto 42:
"And what is the consequence of the recent victory of a pub landlady to get TV football from elsewhere? Less dosh, perhaps."
I'm sorry but this is going to sound patronising, and forgive me before I start.
That landlady will only get cheap football for as long as Sky allows her too, because within the stadium {pick anyone in the PL it doesn't matter which} the ONLY camera's allowed into that stadium are those belonging to BSKYB, when BSKYB decide that it's detrimental to their income, they will do something about it, the only reason they are not at the moment is, the balance between paying and none paying is acceptable to them, I can wholeheartedly guarantee that within the next three years, you will see a massively different stance from the above mentioned, and it would have been sooner if they could've kept their own scandals in order.
"And what is the consequence of the recent victory of a pub landlady to get TV football from elsewhere? Less dosh, perhaps."
I'm sorry but this is going to sound patronising, and forgive me before I start.
That landlady will only get cheap football for as long as Sky allows her too, because within the stadium {pick anyone in the PL it doesn't matter which} the ONLY camera's allowed into that stadium are those belonging to BSKYB, when BSKYB decide that it's detrimental to their income, they will do something about it, the only reason they are not at the moment is, the balance between paying and none paying is acceptable to them, I can wholeheartedly guarantee that within the next three years, you will see a massively different stance from the above mentioned, and it would have been sooner if they could've kept their own scandals in order.
Steve, there's only 1 set of cameras in the stadia as it is, you don't think 1,000 satellite broadcasters around the world all send a camera to the ground to show a match do you? There'd be no room for the supporters.
They uplink the feed to a satellite and it is distributed from there to the various companies that have paid for it. So if the Greek satellite company has paid then the Plymouth landlady will get her live matches.
The change would be that they now just might have to sell the European rights at the same price to everyone.
They uplink the feed to a satellite and it is distributed from there to the various companies that have paid for it. So if the Greek satellite company has paid then the Plymouth landlady will get her live matches.
The change would be that they now just might have to sell the European rights at the same price to everyone.
I think the biggest thing to happen is the turn of the former players! It's about fuckin' time! If this crap happened at Milan, Juve or any club worth its salt in history, the former players would be coming out of the woodwork to march that clown of an owner right out of town. Well done Barry!
The value of EFC is based upon a number of things:
Assets ? what does it actually own, trading stock or inventory (players as they can be bought and sold for a profit or loss); Revenue streams ie ticket sales, tv money sponsors, prize money. EFC reportedly loses £5M each year so it sells off assets or stock to make ends meet: Arteta for £10M props up the accounts.
EFC is not a good buy at £150M ? it's worth a lot less, probably around £35-40M and that is really the value of the squad ? everything else is mortgaged out or financed to keep a team on the park.
The danger here is going into administration and then auto relegation due to points being taken off, eg, Leeds and Pompey. So the only way we get a new owner is when we go into receiveship and then the club can be picked up on the cheap as it will be worthless as most of the players will have to be sold off cheap.
The reality is we end up in the 2nd division playing hoofball with a Moyes clone.
Assets ? what does it actually own, trading stock or inventory (players as they can be bought and sold for a profit or loss); Revenue streams ie ticket sales, tv money sponsors, prize money. EFC reportedly loses £5M each year so it sells off assets or stock to make ends meet: Arteta for £10M props up the accounts.
EFC is not a good buy at £150M ? it's worth a lot less, probably around £35-40M and that is really the value of the squad ? everything else is mortgaged out or financed to keep a team on the park.
The danger here is going into administration and then auto relegation due to points being taken off, eg, Leeds and Pompey. So the only way we get a new owner is when we go into receiveship and then the club can be picked up on the cheap as it will be worthless as most of the players will have to be sold off cheap.
The reality is we end up in the 2nd division playing hoofball with a Moyes clone.
I posted this in the Accounts thread but it's probably more relevant here.
You can only generate an ROI where your total returns are greater than your initial outlay. In the case of Everton, the cash generated by the business is less than when Kenwright bought his shares, the Board has chosen to fund the 'business expansion' through debt and there has been a chronic underinvestment in the club's infrastructure excepting some off-balance sheet finance with regard to the training complex.
You don't need to be an investment banker to realise that all of these things are negative value indicators. Perhaps the Board think differently?
If I were advising somone on the purchase of the club tomorrow, I'd tell them to seek a massive reduction in the cash outlay for the amount of debt on (and off) the balance sheet and I'd also want a deduction for the amount of capex required after sale. Add these things together and you arrive at a very low number for purchase consideration.
I'd struggle to recommend a purchase price of greater than £1.
You can only generate an ROI where your total returns are greater than your initial outlay. In the case of Everton, the cash generated by the business is less than when Kenwright bought his shares, the Board has chosen to fund the 'business expansion' through debt and there has been a chronic underinvestment in the club's infrastructure excepting some off-balance sheet finance with regard to the training complex.
You don't need to be an investment banker to realise that all of these things are negative value indicators. Perhaps the Board think differently?
If I were advising somone on the purchase of the club tomorrow, I'd tell them to seek a massive reduction in the cash outlay for the amount of debt on (and off) the balance sheet and I'd also want a deduction for the amount of capex required after sale. Add these things together and you arrive at a very low number for purchase consideration.
I'd struggle to recommend a purchase price of greater than £1.
Richard,
I think you sum it up perfectly. They've run the old lady into the ground, they can't afford any fuel, let alone to fix all its problems...... and yet they seem to want their original purchase price and more.
Any prospective buyer will be able to see this.... and is probably prepared to wait for this lot to choke on their asking price. Our predicament dictates that it's probably a buyer's market as regards the sale of EFC..... it's all of their own making, but it will be the club (the fans) who will suffer.
I think you sum it up perfectly. They've run the old lady into the ground, they can't afford any fuel, let alone to fix all its problems...... and yet they seem to want their original purchase price and more.
Any prospective buyer will be able to see this.... and is probably prepared to wait for this lot to choke on their asking price. Our predicament dictates that it's probably a buyer's market as regards the sale of EFC..... it's all of their own making, but it will be the club (the fans) who will suffer.
Richard #64
?excepting some off-balance sheet finance with regard to the training complex.?
Lol, that?s you off Everton?s Christmas card list!
?I'd struggle to recommend a purchase price of greater than £1.?
And next years!!!!
Spot on btw.
?excepting some off-balance sheet finance with regard to the training complex.?
Lol, that?s you off Everton?s Christmas card list!
?I'd struggle to recommend a purchase price of greater than £1.?
And next years!!!!
Spot on btw.
It's interesting that keioc have almost the same opinion, that due to a lack of investment or delivery of a means to produce revenue, the long standing problem over the stadium infrastructure, the club is essentially worth nothing save the fact that in has an unstated intengible asset in the form of a presence in the premier league.....
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=367&cntnt01returnid=15
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=367&cntnt01returnid=15
You're so on the ball guys. Drop the price to £25m and get the Venkey's in.
Peter your right..... many predicted this situation several years ago, and were mocked for it by those loyal to BK. Moyes relative success in creating a team with next to no net spend has only papered over the incompetence and impotence of the club's board.
Well they've now sold the last of the family silver, and the club's true state is there for all to see.
Well they've now sold the last of the family silver, and the club's true state is there for all to see.
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1 Posted 10/12/2011 at 17:49:06
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