Season › 2012-13 › News Who is going to be the derby Ref? Michael Kenrick , 12 October, 54comments | Jump to most recent With the derby game at Goodison Park just two weeks away, David Prentice raises an interesting question in his Echo column: Who will referee the Merseyside derby? Some Excerpts: Who is going to referee the derby? It's about 10 days before the Premier League must announce its eagerly awaited appointment for a fixture billed the most combustible in Premier League history — but the shortlist is growing shorter by the year. Lee Mason? Highly unlikely after the widespread criticism he received following his handling of Stoke's visit to Anfield last Sunday. Martin Atkinson? Everton would have something to say about the appointment of an official who sent off Jack Rodwell in last year's corresponding fixture, then saw his decision rescinded by the FA just three days later. Howard Webb? A bete noire amongst Reds fans. Mark Clattenburg? He has taken charge of just one Everton fixture in the five years since he enraged the Blue half of Merseyside with his performance in an October 2007 derby. Mike Dean and Chris Foy are apparently given special dispensation never to take charge of Liverpool or Everton fixtures because of publicity suggesting they were once supporters of the clubs. Kevin Friend was booed off the pitch at Wigan last weekend and criticised by Everton boss David Moyes, Mike Jones was left exposed by a lethargic linesman — twice — when Newcastle visited Goodison Park a month ago, while Mark Halsey had to involve the police after abuse received from Reds fans following his performance in the Liverpool versus Manchester United fixture last month. There are 17 Premier League referees to choose from — but that's more than half wiped out by the sensibilities of the respective clubs or their supporters. But it never used to be like this. The FA often adopted a ref and be damned policy. Remember Clive Thomas? (And you could be forgiven for wanting to forget the name of a dreadful, publicity hungry official who actually believed supporters came to watch him). The very mention of his name is still enough to make Evertonians of a certain age wrinkle their nose like a particularly repugnant smell has just been emitted. You all know the story. Everton scored a perfectly good goal in the last few minutes of a thrilling FA Cup semi-final against Liverpool, Thomas disallowed it for no apparent reason, then later apparently said to his linesmen in the dressing room “Right, let's get our stories straight.” That the incident is still recalled so vehemently 35 years later tells you all you need to know about its impact at the time. Yet Clive ‘The Book', as he liked to be known, was back at Goodison for an FA Cup tie just nine months later. The crowd reaction as he walked out for a third round tie against Aston Villa was intense — and Thomas was sadly mistaken when he claimed by putting his hands over his ears and pretending to walk back down the tunnel he broke the tension. Even more astonishingly he was handed another FA Cup tie at Goodison Park three years after that. The opponents? Liverpool! The FA either had an inflated opinion of Thomas' talents, were supremely insensitive, or couldn't care less what football clubs and their fans believed. They had the same mindset almost two decades on. Neil Midgley denied Everton a stonewall penalty in an FA Cup fifth round tie at Anfield in February 1991, when Gary Ablett tripped Pat Nevin. The match finished 0-0 and Midgley not only took charge of the replay four days later, he joked with Blues boss Howard Kendall that if he'd awarded that penalty kick the world would have been denied the famous 4-4 draw which followed! That attitude is in stark contrast to now — and you could argue it has gone too far the other way... Is the PGMOB, the body which appoints referees in this country, too sensitive to the sensibilities of our football clubs? Back in the 1977 and 1991 the FA governed football and clubs were told to get on with it. Nowadays it looks like the clubs call the shots. So who's going to referee the Merseyside derby? Whoever Everton or Liverpool don't object to, it seems. Quotes or other material sourced from Liverpool Echo Reader Comments (54) Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Norman Merrill 1 Posted 12/10/2012 at 15:41:33 Any money it won't be Clattenburg? Terry Davies 2 Posted 12/10/2012 at 15:40:42 Clattenburg denied us 2 stonewall penalties in that derby match and I read afterwards that he was the referee invited to accompany Liverpool as their ref/advisor bon their pre-season tour. I never found out if this was true so maybe someone can enlighten me but I think he had a point sending off Neville for pulling off a better save than had previously been managed. Howard Webb would be my choice. Kevin Hudson 3 Posted 12/10/2012 at 15:57:11 Kofi Annan. Steavey Buckley 4 Posted 12/10/2012 at 15:54:24 The refereering so far this season, who refereed Everton matches, have been more or less poor except for the odd match. So who Everton get for the derby game will probably be no better than who has gone before. Nick Armitage 5 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:00:49 I will gladly step into the breach and help the FA out. Ray Roche 6 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:07:49 Nick, the jobs yours. Declan Burke 7 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:04:58 Stephen Arsehole Gerrard? Might as well, as he always intimidates the ref whoever it is. Matt Traynor 8 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:10:31 To be fair to Neil Midgely, he did do an interview in The Mirror the day before the replay saying that he should've given the penalty.Thus when he walked out at Goodison the following Wednesday it was to a crescendo of boos, rather than a cacophony of them.He was right though. That night felt like the RS went ahead through four great goals, and sloppy defending let us in for four equalisers. Then Kenny went and so began their inexorable decline which they still haven't accepted.Could never happen now. Multiple replays, cops having games without 17 weeks notice, refs giving interviews to the press.The FA will still find some way to fuck us over with the ref however. Gerry Quinn 9 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:42:55 Pierluigi Collina will be brought out of retirement Paul David 10 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:45:59 It doesn't matter, after seeing the officials displays at the Goodison Derby over the years i'm convinced their under orders to fuck us over. Mike Gaynes 11 Posted 12/10/2012 at 16:51:04 "Hi, this is Phil Dowd. I can't take your call right now... I'm out buying a shiny new yellow card just for Luis Suarez's next dive. Leave a message and I'll get right back to you." BEEEEP! Patrick Murphy 12 Posted 12/10/2012 at 17:30:24 Why not have two teams of officials , one they favour and one we favour , each doing a half each. Oh that's right we'd still be penalised as even our first choice would be biased towards them. Kevin Tully 13 Posted 12/10/2012 at 18:02:12 Talking of our lovable neighbours - have you read the latest PR disaster heading their way ?Apparently their new Director of Communications made threats to a blogger tweeting RS. news - in person !Just Google Duncan Jenkins, it's hysterical if true. Norman Merrill 14 Posted 12/10/2012 at 18:08:19 Terry Davies, I read with interest an article by Harry Rednapp, who was the manager of Portsmouth, when they played Liverpool in the final of a Far East, four team tournament. Clattenburg was the referee, but Harry's comments centred on he flights out & back, On how Clattenburg was very familiar with the Liverpool players, and socialised with them, enjoying the free booze... he was in charge of the FA Cup Final, which Portsmouth won. Karl Masters 15 Posted 12/10/2012 at 18:26:06 They should give the job to Clattenburg.Let him take the stick he deserves, even after all this time, and there's very little chance he would give biased decisions again. He's a twat, but he must have learnt his lesson! Eugene Ruane 16 Posted 12/10/2012 at 18:42:33 Kevin (257) just read the full thing.http://duncanjenkins.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/such-little-thing-makes-such-big.htmlSuppose it could be bollocks but it sounds VERY real.(YNWAgain?) James Morgan 17 Posted 12/10/2012 at 19:27:22 Can't Kev Johnson do it? Kevin Tully 18 Posted 12/10/2012 at 20:20:40 Eugene, this guy was supposedly appointed with the remit to keep a lid on any bad publicity after the Suarez affair. I can easily imagine some paranoid slippery Yank would believe he was working for the CIA. I believe there are more cringeworthy moments on Being: Liverpool tonight. The three envelope trick which was perfected by SAF 20 years ago. Brian Garside 19 Posted 12/10/2012 at 20:18:11 Karl. Have you ever witnessed an rs admitt to anything? Joe Bibb 20 Posted 12/10/2012 at 21:26:00 Dickie Bird, every other ref has me stumped with their decisions. Jamie Crowley 21 Posted 12/10/2012 at 22:40:45 I was just cleaning my arsenal of firearms I keep at my house when I logged on to TW.This Duncan Jenkins character I'm quite sure works for the CIA.Think he helped bring down Bin Laden.Have to go clean the guns - the Taliban is surely coming over the hill on the horizon any second now... Dave Charles 22 Posted 12/10/2012 at 22:57:03 Barcelona Brendan has already been moaning. Gerrard it is to referee the game then.I won't go to any more 'derbies'. The last one was Carsley's derby and before that was when Watson scored after the 4-4 FA Cup game.When we win, it's more than beating them ............ we've beat the FA, the referees association, and all the TV and radio media.My fear now is Moyes's fear of playing them. Sir Joe Royle, your help is needed ............... just for this game. Ken Finch 23 Posted 13/10/2012 at 00:40:12 There are 16 to choose from but some can be discounted because they are recent appointments – Kevin Friend, Anthony Taylor are the most recent; Chris Foy and Mike Dean are too close to home and Mike Jones is very close plus he refereed a recent home game. Others such as Jon Moss and Neil Swarbrick could be discounted as being relatively inexperienced. That leaves Webb, Clattenburg, Atkinson, Mason, Probert, Halsey, Dowd, Marriner and Oliver. Comment has already been made about Clattenburg, Atkinson and Webb but we could add Marriner to that list as well. Halsey does well with his experience as does Dowd but the newer Fifa guys such as Probert or Oliver who have been doing well may warrant consideration. My money is on one of those two.ps: Keep an eye out for Roger East who refereed the Leyton Orient game; he will be the next Select Group appointment. Andy Meighan 24 Posted 13/10/2012 at 12:02:46 It'll be Carragher. Well he's tried to referee every other derby he's played in. Andrew Ellams 25 Posted 13/10/2012 at 13:52:42 Halsey is the best in the league, but as he dared to give some decisions against them, he probably won't get the chance. James Martin 26 Posted 13/10/2012 at 14:20:07 I think Dowd is alright, he was big enough to send Lucas off in the cup against us and doesn't normally give them anything in any game. Like every ref he's screwed us over a few times in odd away matches but he seems to have a genuine dislike for Liverpool and out of the possible alternatives looks the best bet. Halsey would just be wanting to give them somehting straight away so as to avoid anymore abuse. Didn't Probert do the Southampton game or one of our fairly recent ones? Nick Millington 27 Posted 13/10/2012 at 15:22:19 Marriner and Webb screw us over every time. Atkinson and Clattenburg should never referee Everton again. I would have Phil Dowd; he is the best out of a bad lot. John Dubay 28 Posted 13/10/2012 at 17:16:23 I'm more concerned about the lack of support they get from fucking blind linesmen who have been disgraceful this season. Keith Glazzard 29 Posted 13/10/2012 at 18:16:07 Sian Massey. She saw off Andy Gray and Richard Keys and when she assisted at GP she was faultless. It would be sexist to suggest that because RS players are considerably more ugly* than our cuddly lads she would look upon us more kindly, so I won't.ps: * I know I'm biased, but doesn't Skrtel look like a war criminal? Gavin Ramejkis 30 Posted 13/10/2012 at 18:33:53 Keith I don't believe Sian Massey has gone beyond an assistant ref role in the men's game, her wiki entry has her denying a Leeds goal against Everton women's team but in same game denying Everton ladies a penalty when she got the ref role. David Greenwood 31 Posted 13/10/2012 at 18:40:17 Phil Dowd would suit me.Clattenburg... Nooooooo! A complete disgrace, cheating of the highest order the last time.John, spot on – the linos have have cost us big-time this season. Karl Masters 32 Posted 13/10/2012 at 18:58:08 That's right, John. That blind linesman at Swansea never saw that handball in the lead up to the first goal. Oh, hang on a minute..... And of course, there was that idiot referee that blew for a free kick against us instead of playing advantage when Newcastle were through 3 on 1 at Goodison..... Jack Molloy 33 Posted 14/10/2012 at 06:47:46 My money is on it being Clattenburg. Everyone knows the R/S desperately need his help. If you think the Powers That Be in football are going to see us in the top four without trying to do something about it you haven't been paying attention. Martin Mason 34 Posted 14/10/2012 at 07:31:56 Oh come on Jack. The "powers that be" not wanting to see us in the top 4. Who are these people? Why would they not wish to see Everton in the top 4. This just gets funnier and funnier. Mike Green 35 Posted 14/10/2012 at 07:40:22 Martin #441 – The Champions League is seeded based on history in the competition – the more you're in it, the easier your passage is in the competition. The easier your passage, the better your chances are. The better your chances, the more likely you are of success. The more successful you are, the more money you get to reinforce yourself as a footballing power, which in turn strengthens the Champions League.We were a cuckoo in the nest, and an English one at that. As far as Uefa were concerned, we had one too many in the competition because of the Liverpool ruling, they knew we weren't going to be a permanent fixture so they gave the fixture a nudge to make sure one of their seeded teams got through. From the off, the tie was fixed to make it as difficult as possible for us to progress and Collina was the icing on the cake.It's not conspiracy theorist, it's politics and organised corruption. Mike Allison 36 Posted 14/10/2012 at 08:07:41 Don't see why Mike Jones can't do it, it was his linesman that cocked up the Newcastle game, not him. Just send a different linesman (or better yet, the same one, with the feeling that he owes us one). Mike Allison 37 Posted 14/10/2012 at 08:10:10 Karl, the handball against Swansea was an accidental result of flinching away from a waist high studs up challenge which probably drew the referee's attention. A goal was the right result in that circumstance, especially as Ashley Williams should have been sent off.The ref who blew for the foul made an instinctive decision which, frankly, was the correct one in hindsight. Bad enough that we be denied a goal, but if Newcastle had scored as a result it would have compounded the situation.So rein yourself in and get off your high horse son. Paul Johnson 38 Posted 14/10/2012 at 08:17:11 Martin as you so gleefully make everyone aware, we are not an adman's dream. We are plucky Everton, lucky to exist.Football is a business and the power base has shifted dramatically now that real money is involved. Don't forget, 30 years ago we were one of the clubs deciding who would be part of the elite. Now, as you happily state, we have to put up with our lot. Our lot is not being part of the Sky big boys who have a huge influence in Europe and anyone who thinks not is being naive. So do I think Collina cost us the game? Yes.Do I think he was directed to ensure we didn't progress? No.Do I think that officials in the game are influenced to make decisions by ruling bodies? You bet you arse I do. That is why the clubs lying in the lower half of the league don't get the big decisions. Also why a club like Liverpool gets a bye into the biggest club tournament in the world without formally qualifying. Mike Green 39 Posted 14/10/2012 at 08:42:41 Sorry – wrong thread, 444 is in response to your comment on the Collina thread Martin but strangely fits in here pretyy much if you swap Premier League for Champions League. Its a racket from top to bottom, both competitions serve each other as vehicles for making profilt – aka Gravy Trains. Michael Mulholland 40 Posted 14/10/2012 at 09:35:40 We've got robbed every derby over the last several years. But we live and breath... this time, it's a result! Gavin Ramejkis 41 Posted 14/10/2012 at 10:23:56 I don't doubt we will see more piss-poor decisions, I haven't enjoyed a derby game since the Andy Johnson one. Last season, I didn't even get to the match, having my car written off in a pretty nasty crash en route, and had to watch the Sid from Ice Age buck-toothed bastard getting Rodwell sent off and ruining the game on TV highlights.I'm pessimistic as derbies tend to bring out the worst referees in the FA... Between those crooks and Everton's own ability to break your heart, I'll be there and screaming for a victory, but knowing too many times we're on the end of a shafting again. James Martin 42 Posted 14/10/2012 at 10:36:49 Whether we like it or not, the many morons who watch Liverpool unfortunately bring in greater revenue to both the Premier League and the Champions League than Everton would. The Premier League can't have their 'Super Sundays' and ridiculous media fawning if Liverpool aren't near the top... whilst Uefa just want the money. It would be to everyone's advantage (apart from ours) if Liverpool finished above us this season, I can't believe no one's working on it to make it so... Also I don't believe that all these referees support the clubs they say they do. Amazing how so many top class referees with an obvious passion for football support teams that aren't in the Premier League. They're of the same generation as most of the media (the generation that jumped all over the RS bandwagon) so it wouldn't surprise me if a fair few are closet reds, or in Clattenburg's case openly a Liverpool fan. On a different note, was Tottenham's Uefa coefficient higher than ours when they qualified for the Champion's League? Can't believe they drew Young Boys whilst we got Villarreal. Martin Mason 43 Posted 14/10/2012 at 10:51:35 I see now what you're all getting at now, sorry I was a bit slow, it's only world football against Everton? I wouldn't be surprised Elvis isn't in on it somewhere too. Derek Thomas 44 Posted 14/10/2012 at 11:20:12 'Sorry, I was a bit slow '... No shit, Sherlock.That's one opinion I will take as fact. Keith Glazzard 45 Posted 14/10/2012 at 12:40:15 Gavin – Sian was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion as I know she would be ineligible. But I think the point is that, as all these macho men seem to fuckup, why not give it to her?Or Kev Johnson.Mike Green – nice to see you in this one too. And you were right, the Collina thread and this one seemed to merge didn't they! Sometimes I have trouble remembering which country I'm in, never mind which thread. Karl Masters 46 Posted 14/10/2012 at 12:50:49 Mike Allison. How about you rein yourself in, Dad? I was just pointing out that these decisions cut both ways. We get the rub of the green too.Evertonians don't like being called Bitters and yet people whingeing on and on about refereeing decisions gives those ' loveable reds' all the ammo they will ever need. You know as well as I do that if we get an outrageous decision go our way in the derby we will take it all day long. Clattenburg Atkinson, Poll – the list is a long one, we all know it; they know it, but going on and on about it has got tiresome for me and other Evertonians I know. Forget who the referee is, how about we just blow them away with some top class football this time? Mike Green 47 Posted 14/10/2012 at 13:03:57 Can you see UEFA changing the competition rules to let us in if we didn't come 4th? Doubt it. They don't want new faces, they want consistency leading eventually to an actual league, that's the end game. Isn't it? And Liverpool are on the list. Mike Green 48 Posted 14/10/2012 at 13:12:28 Let's get this thread going Keith! :) Peter Barry 49 Posted 14/10/2012 at 13:38:22 The best way to ensure that the Ref has no big part to play in the derby is to beat them at footballing and score more goals than they do. Keith Glazzard 50 Posted 14/10/2012 at 18:21:34 Peter - your logic is perfectly sound. The problem seems to arise when refs do play a big part when they shouldn't. Sending Hibbo off a the behest of the RS captain is an obvious example, as is sending Rodwell off for not having caused Suarez to start rolling around like a horizontal dervish.Cheats? Gullible refs? Nothing sinister at all.Its two weeks off, so not next week, but maybe starting on MotD next Saturday let's watch out for voices from the Dark Side raising the question of Jelavic 'going down too easily', softening up whoever is in charge to ignore any acts of GBH against him. Gavin Ramejkis 51 Posted 14/10/2012 at 19:46:26 Keith, I happen to agree on someone like Sian, a new face and not one yet purged with the old boy corruption the so-called pros are riddled with. At some point she needs to be given a pro men's game from the centre circle.Some of the decisions we've all seen over the years in derby games defy belief yet another season rolls on and we'll get more. When was the last time anyone can recall a game changing wrong decision going against the RS in a derby game? Ian Bennett 52 Posted 14/10/2012 at 20:28:00 Andrew (359) – spot on. Mark Halsey is about the best for me. Phil Dowd is too fussy for a derby, he's too card happy. Brian Waring 53 Posted 14/10/2012 at 20:42:22 The sad thing is, when it comes to whinging about referee's, we're getting just as bad as the shite and the Manc's. Gareth John 54 Posted 14/10/2012 at 21:30:21 That new referee Taylor did quite well when I saw him officiate; big game for him but he's got to start somewhere. Add Your Comments In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site. » Log in now Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site. About these ads