Lukaku: �I knew it was time to react�

COYB

Useful insight into the relationship between manager and players.

There is a way to disagree, without resorting to dissent or sedition.......it relies upon character and last night you showed plenty.

Keep up the good work and the goals will come.

Where does that leave us though? Surely this has undermined everything the manager has been working on since his arrival?

As far as I’m concerned, this has made Martinez look like an amateur. Poor management if the players are dictating tactics.

He and all the other players need to react in every game from now to the end of the season if we are to pull away from a relegation dog fight, and they shouldn’t have to loose 4 games on the bounce to "realise" that.

It also creates a real opportunity to find a balance. A style of play that would be effective and pretty to watch. Possession football with common sense and not so predictable.

Here’s hoping.

This does not make Martinez look amateur. It makes him look intelligent. He listened to his players which shows mutual respect, and he made a change based upon feedback. That doesn’t equate to the inmates running the asylum.

Nor does it mean the players are dictating the tactics.

They had input. Nothing wrong with the collective having a meeting of the minds.

Ever compromise on something with your wife? Usually turns out better than your original idea in my experience (and yes, that pains me to say).

Reading between the lines of what Lukaku says it seems that he felt he was the fall guy for bad results and that by the team changing its style he has responded in a positive way, but what happens if the manager insists on reverting to his normal mode of operation - does Lukaku decide to stop trying?

It’s interesting that it is a Roberto signing that has spoken about the alteration in tactics rather than one of the elder statesmen in the squad. I can’t imagine Alex Ferguson, Howard Kendall et al being happy if one of their players had revealed what had occurred - surely they would have publicly pre-empted changes in tactics before one of their players? We’ll see what happens on Saturday, as always another interesting day in the life of Everton FC.

Oh, and there is no compromise with my missus, I just nod and say ’yes dear.’ Then I go out to the boozer, and stay out, until she’s gone to bed!

This to me says he is pretty much finished because he has lost all credibility. If the players are now calling the shots on tactics - and correctly in this case - what is the point of Martinez? Where is his authority? What happens next time there is a disagreement with players over tactics?

Martinez needed to initiate change in a proactive manner by covering all the bases, or at best have a discreet conversation with the captain to sound out player feelings at arms length - which in my opinion should be done constantly in any case. This sounds different to that in my opinion.

When this type of Chinese Democracy approach is followed in the army or in business it is an absolute cast iron sign of weakness in leadership and a guarantee that a leader needs replacing ASAP. Busted flush as I have said before.

"Yeah I’ve been a right sulky, lazy, primadona. I just didn’t think the manager would have the balls to drop me for that carthorse who does a better job at holding up the ball and puts in a better shift.

If you play the way I want then I will put in a good effort. The manager has stood by me in my shocking games, but now I’ve had one decent game I’m gonna use it as a means of getting what I want..... Who have we got at the weekend? Man City!!!!..... My toe is a bit sore.....".

Maybe he should just read ToffeeWeb or watch repeats of the games?

If he has put together a team who can’t defend, seem disillusioned, are hardly an attacking force, get beat regularly.... and now have to come up with the tactics themselves what exactly is the point of him?

"...We mixed up how we played a bit more, at times we were a bit more direct..." .
So, IMHO, I think this is a good step. Indeed, it contrasts with the previous regime where tactics and positions were far more rigid.

Lo and behold, his premier signing appears talking about, "I asked them, and we all said to the manager: "Can we play a bit more direct sometimes?’ We have a style of play where we keep the ball a lot, but knew we needed to take more responsibility, play to my strengths more, and they did it perfectly."

Fucking 21-year old had to explain to Roberto what was wrong with his approach? More like, some seniors had a word with Bill, and Bill had a word to Roberto about how Everton is looking in the media. And job security. I agree with Lukaku, mind.

Nonetheless, if this is to be form and form holds, maybe Jags, Baines, and Hibbert can talk to Bill about 2 banks of 4 and hit em on the counter. And Bill can convey this to the fellow whose salary he pays to manage. I don’t care if Bill, the players, or Roberto manages right now. We need points and ManCity is up next.

And fair play to Kenright, he knows how to stage-manage.

He’s got to start listening more, even van Gaal doesn’t stand on the touchline alone giving directions, he listens to Giggs who knows the club better. That’s his main flaw and Lukaku’s comment shows he may be willing to change. We’ll see. For now it’s the best move he could have made: listened to the players, found out what’s wrong, then took action - against his own principles.

’The Philosophy1.0’ has been replaced by ’The Philosophy1.1’

A giant step for Roberto, but just a small step for Everton.

More tweaks and patches please Roberto. Start with ’The Philosophy1.2’ Change zonal marking in our box to... attack the ball, watch the late runner and pick up your men.

Roberto has made a change, and now we get, "well fuck me it took a player to make this change happen..., That's pub league stuff..."

Hang on just a second...

He's agreed to let the players play to their strengths. How is that a sign of weakness?

Joe Clitherow rightly points out that in a perfect world Roberto would of come up with this independently. But....

Roberto isn't Jesus. Nor is anyone posting on TW. What the hell is wrong with him making a change if he's prodded by a player he signed for a huge (record!) fee coming to him with a suggestion?

No one is infallible. I applaud Roberto taking in advice, and acting on it.

It shows excellent management skills and a willing to actually adapt - EXACTLY what most people posting in TW have been crying out for!

He finally, through a coming to Jesus meeting with his major signing, has adjusted. The anti-Roberto faction have been screaming out for this. But yet now it's, "he should of come up with this one his own..., what a clown..., Charlatan...."

No!

He's listened, made an adjustment, and hopefully we are better off for it.

That's humility, that's flexibility, that's good management.

If a man has conviction in a way to go about things, utter conviction his way is the right way, but it isn't working.... Then that same man actually listens to alternative opinions and makes a change - contrary to his deep held convictions - for the good of the collective....

Is that NOT to be applauded??!!!

Well done Roberto!

Come on you fucking Blues! Work together, players and a "phenomenal" manager alike, and get it right!

There is nothing but positives to take away from this.

In my humble opinion...

It's not a complete departure from everything Roberto has preached since day one.

It's a realization, through a player he clearly loves in Rom, of recognizing that we need to try a different way.

He still is 100% convinced possession football is the way to go. But if the players come to him and say, "I'm not comfortable with XYZ..., Can we please try this?.... I can't do what you're asking me to do..."

And he adjusts, how is that a BAD thing? MIT doesn't mean he's abandoned his principles! He's simply taken on board feedback from his players and what they want and are comfortable with, and tried to meld his philosophy with what they want.

The only logical counter-argument is Joe C's when he says Roberto should have come up with this on his own. And I don't disagree!

But who gives a fiddler's fart if he did or not? He listened, and hopefully we make the adjustment - as we obviously tried to against West Ham - and we are better off for it!

He's gone down in my estimation after this, I thought he was naturally lazy. Just proves he is an impostor. I think what he is saying is that Kone has returned to full fitness.

I totally agree. The players telling their manager how they want to play is the end for Martinez... sounds like rumours of dressing room rifts are correc.

by some of the comments here you would think we played some kind of brilliant football the other night, not scoring in the last minute to save our skin in a performance that would've been slammed if not for the late equaliser.

It makes RM look foolish I'm afraid and weakens him for the future. It is always regrettable to have tactics discussed in this way. I agree that Rom should have kept his mouth shut.

A successful PL manager should not be taking guidance on basic matters from his 21 year old striker.

Short term this may all produce the improvements we need and if it rescues the season then that's wonderful, but I am concerned about the longer term implications for RM. I hope Jamie is right that the players will see this as intelligent compromise rather than capitulation to them.

Only joking

:)

That said, I don't care how it's done, we need to win games.

It does seem that Martinez is back-tracking though - I'm not sure where that leaves him but results will speak for themselves.

Points in the league please - the rest is secondary.

If the definition of football intelligence is to take on board feedback AFTER losing 6 out of 7 games then I am the first person to ask Kenwright to replace Bobby with a moron who knows nothing about football. At least then if the team continues to play like this we can all say "Well he actually doesn't know anything".

No-one wants to see Everton lose but an injury time goal at home to earn a DRAW is not my definition of a turning point!

Even Wenger has evolved and brought in specialist coaches for his defence. So what has RM done in his career to take this stance. If he had done for Everton what Wenger did for Arsenal then I can accept he has earned the right to be given time but until then he needs to show some humility and it starts by changing the coaching staff who are making Steve Round look like Ancelloti.

RM needs to accept that football is always in a fluid state and tactics can evolve. The two constants that any team should have are the desire to play for the shirt and fans and the fitness to back up that desire. He has so far failed to deliver on any of this and that is why so many people are worried.

1. The manager is approachable and can adopt new ideas and players feel comfortable in requesting new tactics.

2. The manager has been too rigid and it has taken a very poor run of form for the players to respond and request a change.

My particular take is that Roberto has been married to his ideas and listens to nobody and it has taken a poor run of results to bring to a head the frustrations of his team with the game-plan. It also begs the question why Romelu put in such a mature and hard-working performance on Tuesday night when for most of the season he has looked leaden footed and disinterested.

If there have been frank exchanges at Finch Farm and both sides have listened to each other then that can only be a good thing in the long-run, but if players are picking and choosing when to perform to their maximum if they feel that they will benefit from the tactics employed that could prove problematic.

It would have been far better for the manager to have said he altered the tactics, but he is so wedded to his philosophy that he simply couldn’t bring himself to say such a thing and instead it is left to a young player to make it public knowledge.

But whatever the particular details - as long as it brings Everton FC enough points in the coming weeks and months I’ll take it, but it still leaves me feeling a little more unsure about Roberto the manager than I was previously.

I still have absolutely no faith that Martinez knows what he is doing.

Interesting points raised. Some I agree with, some not. Unfortunately, due to being at work, I only have time to comment on your point/comparison in relation to Roberto and Arsene Wenger suggesting if Roberto 'had done for Everton what Wenger did for Arsenal then I can accept he has earned the right to be given time but until then he needs to show some humility and it starts by changing the coaching staff who are making Steve Round look like Ancelloti'

I may be missing your point but to be fair to Roberto, over what period are you comparing the two.

Roberto has only been at Everton for app 18 months... Wenger a lot longer, so quite clearly will have had time to be more effective, perhaps not the last 10 years or so... I think we should allow Roberto a bit of leeway.

However, if you mean over the first two years of Arsene Wenger's tenure, what exactly did Arsene do for Arsenal apart from win the Double!

Okay, it may be a good point you raise!

Having said that the Premier League in the 1990s was a totally different league to the one it is now for many well documented reasons.

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We could all see that it needed changing months ago. He couldn't see it. Still can't. The players are forcing the issue. I just hope it has the same results that it did with Chelsea when Di Matteo was put in charge. Drogba, Terry, Lampard and Cole called the shots and it worked spectacularly. Di Matteo was just a puppet.

First off the changes made were/are not rocket science, they are just so blindingly obvious: mix up your style a bit to keep the opposition on their toes and play to the strengths of the guy you paid £28M for? Err yeah, go figure that one out. That's not a Plan B by the way, that's a fundamental part of Plan A. Did Roberto *really* not work that out for himself? Or was he just too stubborn to approve it? Either scenario is not a good one,

I think it is great when a manager asks for opinions from staff, he should be doing that all the time. The thing is, get all the opinions in and then say "this is my decision of what we will do". The problem Bobby has is that he has backed himself into a corner with his spouting about "philosophy" and this looks not good. Look at the direct quote splashed all over the media: "I knew it was time to react". Note I". From a 21 year old. I don't reckon this is a Macchiavellian stance from Lukaku by the way, just naivety like Garbutt, but it is telling.

But like that Garbutt quote, why does this have to appear in the papers at all? In a close knit team shouldn't it be kept in house? In a strong team environment you accept the mistakes of others and cover for them. That's what a team is, surely? In a 'them and us' environment there is point scoring. This looks like point scoring to me. What happens the next time like I said that RM wants to push something the players don't want to do or don't agree with, like all leaders have to do from time to time? Who wins that battle?

My take on the message here is players saying "We knew he was wrong all along and had to force the matter" which to me leaves Martinez very diminished as the manager.it fits the scenario of a dressing room split that has been rumoured for a while in terms of circumstantial evidence.

Of course, short term, like almost all the posters I don't give a toss about loss of face for Martinez, I just want results improving, and if this really is Road to Damascus then even better. I've nothing personal against him and if the club continues to improve then that's fabulous.

However, I have severe doubts about this and I do think medium to long term he is now knackered, because while things are going well (and let's not all get carried away here - we scraped a last minute draw against an Allardyce team) it's all hunky dory and a chummy love in. Next time it goes bad and leadership is required, whose job is it to provides?

So I'm encouraged by this as it seems: the players haven't revolted; Roberto hasn't "lost" the dressing room; they have maturely suggested we mix it up; he has maturely bought into that; this is why some (Ken in his Seat) said they saw "green shoots" on Tuesday; this is why I sensed we were more threatening Tuesday than for a long time; this is why I go into Saturday with a wee bit of optimism (dare I say anticipation as I expect to see passion and mixed tactics).

But he didn't do that did he? That's another trick he missed.

Some will argue it's weakness and is a wholesale change of philosophy. Others that it's a tweak and part of the normal process. Either way, again I'm not too bothered. It seemed to produce a slight upturn in performance and that's what we all want to see. I guess we'll know more from the Man City game, where we can assess wether this more direct approach sticks or we return to the keep ball of the past.

Joe #48 - agree that the way this has come out is unfortunate. Just hope it all augurs well for the future, starting with Saturday's thrashing of City!

I'm old fashioned enough to wonder at the openness of all these dressing room influences and suspect the real truth is that it was getting near to open revolt.

The so-called loyalists (we mustn't say apologists, apparently !) who would follow Roberto to the ends of the earth would have such democracy painted in a good light. Those of us who, through experience, know the perils of having the workers call the shots would say it was total weakness.

No prizes for guessing which camp I'm in !

And that is good news as well.

He has been shown to be weak and out of his depth. His team selections and substitutions have been awful, and his signings have mostly been poor or over priced. He has shown he can not motivate the team or get the best out of his players.

His man management has been found wanting, the players are not playing for him and constantly making comments to the press which undermine him. His dealings with the press and fans have also worked against him, being ultra positive after being awful each game after getting beat by teams that will probably be fighting relegation just makes him look fake or delusional.

This is not the man to run a PL team, let alone a team like Everton. He has shown himself to be completely out of his depth and redundant. He has to go at the end of the season or as soon as we go out of the remaining cup competitions.

Likewise, knocking it in to touch when defending may be also be wise. Thinking of Tim Howard who raced out of his goal towards the touchline to clear the ball as far as a Man Utd player. Was soon in the net. Perhaps Row Z would have been better.

occasionally needs must!

It's only 'telling' in the way you imply if you take the qoute entirely out of context.

He used the word 'I' simply because he was referring to the fact that he 'himself' knew he needed to up his own game after the wake up call of being dropped:

"After two games on the bench I knew it was time to react. I wanted to show the manager how he can count on me."

Nothing to do with him being an upstart seeking to claim credit, or considering himself a separate entity adrift from the team. Simply a player stating that he wanted to prove his worth after being taken out of the starting line up following some sub-par performances.

Also, what has his age got to do with anything? The temerity of the kid, referring to himself in the first person. At age 21 he should surely stick to announcing himself as 'LuLu' in a lispy toddler voice. Like a less skinny Smeagol from Lord of the Rings. "LuLu knew it was time to react. Yessss. LuLu wantssssed to."

People have moaned long and hard about Lukaku looking like he doesn't give a shit. He finally busts a gut and reacts in the manner any recently dropped player restored to the first-team should and, suddenly, that's not enough? We now need to know the finest minutiae of why he mentally got himself up for it? Who cares?

He's a fucking footballer, not Fyodor Dostoevsky. There's nothing to be gleaned by going over his simple words, again and again, in search of some hidden subtext.

I hope it's the former as I love a good sporting turn around and I think Roberto is a good manager capable of great things IF he can survive this period. The prospect of a renewed team with a humbled RM attacking European knockout with a full squad is a good one in my opinion.

Don't lose v Man City, beat West Ham, beat West Brom, get the revival back on track. We don't need to sack him, we should be better than going to that as first resort. How about the players following Lukaku's example and playing for the manager. Stick together and we can get out of this. When we went one-down to West Ham, all you could hear were chants of 'Everton'. Full houses for Man City and Liverpool as well (neither picked up by the papers who loved all the booing).

If RM can ride this out and get us back where we need to be, it will be great for Everton and great for the future for RM knowing we stuck by him. The emotion was back the other night and it's for those moments you go the game. Easy to be a boss fan when everything is going well. This is the other side that in the 90s we used to be so good at. Sticking by the team and manager even in the worst of times.

Mr Lukaku thinks getting the ball to him quick is why he played well? No I think its clearling the lines meant we didn't concede more despite Jags looking drugged up.

Lukaku played well because his ego got rattled, nothing more, nothing less. Looks like we've got a high maintenance diva on our hands.

I suspect Roberto will change back to possession football when the confidence is back, when we have McCarthy and Barry/Besic firing on all cylinders again, the back 4 back to being confident with the ball, instead of being frightened to death.

The players have said , we not playing well, we are making too many mistakes in dangerous areas and we need to get the ball out quicker, and that will also probably be better for forwards who aren't getting good service. What's wrong with that. Its called listening, which most good managers do.

It's clear Martinez was hoping that the players could play there way out of trouble and its become obvious over the Xmas/New Year period that the players just cant play the way Martinez wants them to at the minute. But hopefully times will change and we'll start to win, and players will revert back to last season's standards.

Even our two best players from last season, Baines & Coleman, have been fucking awful - the problems run far deeper than the players asking the manager if they could they knock it long.

So discussing whether the manager should listen to the players is only the tip of the iceberg I’m afraid. This is all about a massive falling out over many months. If the likes of Jagielka and Distin said what they really feel, I think many would be shocked.

All ths should have been sorted months ago, before our season went to shit!!

RM listened to the suggestions from his senior players and decided it had value. The sign of a good Manager; not a weakness.

Peter, things don't have to be "either / or"; they can be "both / and". IMO this was "both / and". Getting the ball out more quickly and more directly both took the pressure off defence and gave Rom a better chance of receiving the ball when under less pressure and being able to turn.

After Swansea and Wigan, Martinez made the mistake of thinking the higher quality Everton squad would carry out his philosophy to the letter and take the football world by storm. Record points in his first season suggested he was on the right track but it sadly all fell apart. Pre-season, Europa and injuries haven't helped but the performances have been dire and the fans are not happy.

Where we go from here is anyone's guess and I'm not about to make suggestions. Hopefully things will improve.

Personally I think Martinez does not have a plan B, and the interview with Jags and Rom after the game was summed up quite succinctly by Steve McManaman (an Evertonian after all) when he said the body language shows the boys are not happy. Absolutely spot on.

More worrying however, is that I was told last night via a source from within the club that Baines was sent home before the game for calling Martinez a ’Soft Wanker’ and that he is/was not injured. Looks like the early stages of a revolt – not a friendly word with the manager!

Quite a few lads are being played out of position, which is affecting the natural flow we had early last season, and if we took just 2014 as a calendar year, it was pretty poor.

Hopefully Roberto has phenomenal understanding and realises the crowd and teams monumental incredible backing which is in our DNA might just evaporate if we keep fucking about with the ball in our own 18-yard box!!

Yes, I am sure all good managers have regular heart-to-heart meetings with their players but usually these things quite rightly are kept in house. The fact that the players have said publicly what has been said behind closed makes a massive statement as RM either has to change and admit his philosophy was wrong or leave.

Osman; Garbutt: Rom - now can one of the players ask RM if they can practice defending set pieces - then can one of them ask him if they can play in their best positions?

Then one of them can ask him if he would stop filling the team with number 10s.

You never know but these players can make a manager out of him yet

It is not in any shape or form comparable. Even cap’n Pip was saying he hadn’t make a cup of coffee for himself until last week, aged 37!!

Premier League managers are in position to get results - nothing else matters. He is not being paid tens of millions to listen to how the team would rather play. Even amateur football doesn’t work like this FFS.

Ironically the point I was trying to make (clearly badly) was in some way the same as yours, in that the quote wasn't necessary, the change was obvious. Thing is once the genie is out of the bottle then speculation is inevitable (so we do).

By the way, your Gollum scenario did make me laugh, but coming in the week when Phil Neville revealed he couldn't boil an egg and had to phone his wife to ask how to make instant coffee, I'm really not sure if you're joking or not.

I cannot believe there is one supporter of our Club that at sometime this season has not questioned Martinez's tactics, team, style, substitutions and comments. After last season and our expectations for this season seeing the team play so bad and all the reported periphery stuff going on, are we just to sit back and say nothing?

Remember, this is our Club and we will be here long after any manager or player leaves. If any of these arseholes put our Club in a bad light then take what they get.

After last season, I believe everyone wanted Martinez to continue or better our form well it has backfired dramatically, therefore, he is up there for any comment any supporter feels he justifies. Nobody working for Everton Football Club should be above criticism, if deserved, and Martinez fully deserves it so far this season. Blind loyalty causes more harm than good.

In the next paragraph Rom says he and his teammates had a meeting with RM and pleaded with the manager to adopt a more direct style of play.

Somebody is telling porkies.

This is the most encourahing thing I've read about Martinez in weeks, now all it needs is someone to request that they get fit, practice defensive organisation and spend time on set pieces and we might just have a decent team yet.

Let's hope this change to a more direct football will see us move up the table. It will be interesting to see game plan for Man City game.

I’m just made up Martinez’s rigidity and determination to pursue a failed model has been relaxed. Something most people have been calling for. Hopefully we can have another group chat to recommence practising dead-ball situations.

Head in the sand, "My philosophy will work, trust me!" is madness and these professional players haven't the guts to perhaps boot it into touch if under pressure or to twat it upfield to clear their lines if they want to. Are they mindless robots?

It's not black and white, sometimes there are shades of grey and hopefully Bobby has realised that and will allow the players to make some decisions themselves instead of playing under the manta of pass, pass, pass....shit lost it, defend, defend.

This latest debate re: Lukaku comments is both irritating and fascinating. Opinions are just as varied as always. Either outcome will have one set of fans gloating "I told you so". Bottom line is we are still in deep shit. I for one hold the manager to account; however, the piss poor attitude of the players sulking, while the fans who live, breath and pay top money to be entertained have been short-changed.

The shit has hit the fan, it’s shit or bust now for both manager, players and fans. We need a decent game against Man City no matter what the result is.

I now expect things to get worse results-wise, as players are going to be caught in two minds when on the ball, as to whether they should pass the ball out of trouble, or go direct. This will now result in hesitation and worsening results. Games against West Brom and Palace, later this month, will decide his fate.

There are other shades in the spectrum you know...

Similarly, as Brent says, things can also be either-or, both-and.

Personally, I think it's healthy that the players are concerned enough to approach the manager who was receptive to them.

I can understand the viewpoint that this can be interpreted as weak management on Roberto's part, or a dereliction of duty that he was unable to see or make the change himself.

Some argue that Fergie and Moyes would not allow such a brazen approach by their players. Maybe, maybe not. But then, Martinez is not of that nature - ruling by fear. He is clearly a personable, approachable fellah.

We all respond differently to different personalities. Who can say with absolute certainty just how the players respond to Martinez and just how the relationship is between manager and players?

That's why I always take claims of 'the manager has lost the dressing room' with a pinch of salt. It ain't easy dealing with the egos of overpaid sports stars who always believe they should be in the team.

Conflicts are inevitable, even in the tightest knit changing rooms as Everton has had down the years. Any one watched The Crazy Gang documentary over Xmas? Fashnu and Sanches - two pivotal players in the heyday of Wimbledon - HATED each other and weren't even on speaking terms ... but ... they fought and won together.

Of recent declarations to the press, I'm more concerned about the Luke Garbutt affair.

The lad makes his full PL debut at Newcastle, does well, the team gets beat, and HE is the sacrificial lamb wheeled out to make after match interviews with the press. This isn't something that happened by chance.

He makes an unprepared, innocent comment about the short time the team had to prepare defensively for the game ... and he gets dropped from the squad against Hull. There has been NOTHING said that he was injured and he was back on the bench on Tuesday.

Two things here for me. The senior pros were chicken shits for throwing him to the wolves for interviews after the Newcastle game, rather than stand there themselves and explain another defeat.

If, as seems possible, Martinez took umbrage at his comments and punished him for the Hull and Hammers games, then I think that WAS bad management and totally unjust.

This does have potential consequences as he is out of contract in the summer and it gives him food for thought. "Shit! I play well, do what I'm told - give an interview - and I'm dropped for my comments, not my performance?"

Would you be encouraged to sign a contract extension..?

Now can you go back to Roberto and ask if we can start practising defending and attacking set pieces, also fitness that means we can last 90 minutes now. After all, the FA Cup and Europa League may present a few games where extra time is required. God help us if that comes about given the state of our squad's current fitness.

If Graeme Jones asks what's the point of it i'd happily ask him what's the point of him being there and he can go and think about that, as a coach he should know.

RM is obsessed with playing forwards and doesn't give any consideration to defending.

Every time West Ham had a corner they could have scored.

Our defending of set pieces isn't even up to Championship standards.

I think the late goal and outpouring of relief will have done the players good as did the "open" discussion but it still doesnt mean Jags and Distin are totally happy with the way we are set up.

We have a really good quality squad hindered by the manager's team selection and lack of organisation.

It's also easy for opposing teams to get a bunch of corners against Everton. There are acres of space out wide. How many times to we see an Everton defender coming out late to play against an attacking player who plays out wide. It's easy for opposing teams to get the ball out wide and have a cross blocked for a corner. If I were setting up a team against Everton I'd get the ball wide and play for corners, which Everton don't defend well.

Everton need some clean sheets, but the way they play there aren't going to be very many.

It's become obvious as the season has gone on that the player's are not good enough to play the style that he prefers. >If he had one or two of Man City's and Chelsea's players, it wouldn't be a problem; they would have that little bit more ability and close control to pull it off.

The dream when he took over was that it was a long term strategy aimed at producing superior young players from within the club. No easy feat, but for a club of financial standing a must if we want to win something for a change.

Moye's style of football made us competitive so I'm not knocking it, but it proved that it could only take us so far.

"I now expect things to get worse results-wise, as players are going to be caught in two minds when on the ball, as to whether they should pass the ball out of trouble, or go direct." - Terence if that ever happened then all they all deserved to be dismissed from their positions as professional footballers.

Also, I have it on good authority that Bobby has not lost the dressing room, as he still allows the players to have their chips on a Friday night.....

I still believe he should bring in a qualified defensive coach ( preferably an Italian who seem to have defence inbreded in them ) to intergrate the defence within the style or philosophy he wants. Goals earn points defences win games.

And will some of the idiots on this site laying into Lukaku get a grip. Despite the price tag, he's inexperienced and that sometimes shows. But's he's an intelligent and honest lad who will always score goals if he gets the service - sadly lacking most of the season.

And having to tell your manager how to do his job just engenders distrust and disrespect and the feeling that you'd be better off employed elsewhere working for someone that knows what they're doing.

And lest we forget, we didn't convincingly win a game, we're celebrating rescuing a draw in the 92nd minute and were still defensively all at sea. I hope now our defenders will ask Martinez if they can practice defending corners.

We need to get some points on the board, its getting a bit scary at the moment, it doesn't matter how they do it, any old way will do!

If you don't think that suggests a problem scoring goals you have slightly different expectations to the majority of Evertonians.

For me, it's hard to say whether this is a positive or a negative. The fact that he's approachable and willing to take on board feedback from players is great, the thought that without intervention he might have sent us out in a home cup game playing the exact same way that had seen get swatted aside by such luminaries as Hull and Stoke is truly staggering. I guess we'll just have to see how the next few games go. Fingers crossed the green shoots turn into mighty oaks.

I notice a constant refrain in nearly all your posts, claiming as you do again here "the players are not good enough to play the style that Martinez prefers."

You add "If he had one or two of Man Citys and Chelseas players, it wouldn't be a problem; they would have that little bit more ability and close control to pull it off."

I really have issues with that point of view on 2 counts:

1) It is essentially the same squad as last year which thoroughly excited and entertained us – playing Martinez's preferred system – and achieved our record PL points haul. It is fair to conclude from that that the current crop of players are MORE than capable of adapting to Martinez's system and that he was effective in transmitting his methods and implementing them.

2) If, as you continue to argue, the current squad players are NOT capable of playing the Martinez Way then … why is he persisting in imposing on his players a style and method of play they are not capable of producing? Surely that is negligent, a dereliction of duty?

From all we know of Martinez he is clearly a serious student of the game. He must have studied different systems, strategies and training methods. If, as seems the case, last year's impressive and successful system has been 'found out' then it is his duty, his responsibility, to find alternative ways for the players under his charge to win games. And he is patently failing to do so.

Your argument (or rather, your veiled defence of Martinez) is seriously flawed.

We'll be OK against City because they keep the ball well - this helps us IMO because it means we have less possession and less chance to just tip-tap it about like the Lidl Barcelona.

Good on the manager for listening and letting players have input. For this alone he has to get some credit.

Lukaku and Barry were here last season so don't really count as squad additions.Its a complete mess.

The players are all too nice and to cosy at the club. There is no mean streak in anyone involved at EFC. No winning mentality on or off the park.

We are still tied up with the most ludicrous kit and sponsor deals in the entire country. The owner is a Buffoon and those around him worse.

Our problems run much deeper than Martinez being found.

There is always more than one way to play and it now seems Roberto realises that its not always about possession.

Direct isn't always negative as Chelsea and Man City show so for that he has my support.

I was born a blue, was it a blessing or a curse? well both: when it’s good, there’s nothing better... but when it’s bad, it’s worse.

That doesn't mean that he retains my 100% approval or that I completely disagree with those who want him to leave.

When Harry Catterick decided to sell Alan Ball I learned, with great pain, that the club is all that I adore (I STILL have dreams that Bally never left.....and...................) the players come and go, the managers and coaches too and "The Board" (though I can NEVER imagine shedding a single tear over ANY of them leaving Everton).

Roberto must get things right, that has never changed from the moment he penned the contract.

He is young, determined, VERY intelligent, adores stylish football and has a wonderful appreciation of Everton Football Club's illustrious and stain free history.

I want Roberto to become our greatest ever manager, and I want that far more than even he does !

If that requires a season or two of more "Plain Jane" football, well then I've seen plenty of that before.
If that requires selling a few adored players, well then I've seen that before.
If that requires us being relegated............well then, NO !
I have not seen that and I will not.

Our players MUST ALL face up to the fact that THEY are the underperformers.....

We could send Bally and Billy and Big Nev out alone against this current crop and beat them handsomely.

No previous Evertonians have been so highly paid, so well cared for, nor so numerous. Therefore, this current ensemble, have the fewest excuses in our illustrious and stain free history.

So, go on lads........make us proud......there really is NOTHING stopping you !

But it is a real possibility and that is why Robbie has to listen to all of us and change the style even from game to game.

The gap between the top/middle/bottom of the Premier League is a lot greater than it ever was in the old First Division.

Seems to me that there has been serious internal unrest festering and then revealing itself on the pitch.

I believe all out in the open now, dealt with and that our results and performances will now drastically improve.

I bloody hope so anyway

My confidence has not been lifted by the draw with WHU although I admit the performance was an improvement.

This manager fills me with doom although I would never wish him anything but good wishes for the sake of our club - I never want to experience what you have done David albeit 60 years ago!! I wish my fears would disappear but the next two weeks or so will give us a huge clue!

Peter Warren, not sure Tuesday's game was the catharsis you reckon it to be. What's now all out in the open?

The West Ham goal at the weekend could have been prevented if players were more switched on and Besic didn't run off the line when they went to play it short - his fault as much as Distin for not staying with Collins - which all points to a collective failing.

I feel sorry for Robles to be honest (ex keeper here - goalkeepers union & all that) having to walk into a struggling team with a shabby defence and a lot of the criticism railed at him has been unfair in my view. He's a young keeper with a bright future from what I've seen.

His lack of confidence on crosses comes with maturity and games. He's a bit lad who can stop a shot - have another look at the save down low against Newcastle which was a fantastic. You can keep all your high-flying saves, it's the ones low down like that which count. The kid will be fine.

No question in my mind that the person who comes out of this looking like a complete dork is Martinez. First according, to Lakaku, he was telling the players that the only way they would come out of this slump was by continuing to play whatever the hell type of football he has the team playing. For the sake of argument let's call it possession football.

Secondly he appears to be just about the only person watching us this season who believed the style should not change in order to halt the slump - even if in his mind it's to be temporary. Those who had already arrived at this conclusion included just about every supporter and almost every media commentator some of whom are ex Everton players and remain Evertonians. It is to me without question this lack of ability to see what was going wrong and what changes were needed to halt the decline that I find most disturbing.

Personally I'm delighted he listened and will will be even more delighted if we continue to show some level of improvement against Man City. But I'm actually horrified that our manager did not have the wherewithal to see it for himself. I don't therefore have much confidence that once we pull out of this decline that he will have an understanding how it came to be reversed it and more importantly that he is has the capability and the flexibility of absorbing the lessons on a permanent basis.

The other teams have wised up from last season, they have found out if they press and hassle us when we are in possession our players havn't the ability to get round their marker or find a telling forward pass.
How many of our players would get a starting spot in the usual top 4 teams, 1 or 2 and that's pushing it!

Your 2nd point I can agree with, he probably has persisted too long trying to play passing possession football when its plain to see the players cant pull it off.

Really? I don't even think it's that. Teams just line up in two banks of 4 and wait for us to stumble into them. We're piss easy to play against because we don't do anything other than pass it about with zero penetration, too fucking slowly.

Nobody even needs to harry us to make us ineffective!

Exactly as I thought. The Players and Manager are all in this together and will work our way out together.

I don't remember many teams hussling to get the ball back, because they don't need to. We just play in front of them like you say!

Think that was also the season we lost two games back to back 4-0, against villa and Bolton(?), not managing one single shot on target!

Happy days indeed....

However, I think we had players who stood up to be counted!

Man City

I have indeed watched all our games this season. As I did last season. And from this season, although the results were disappointing, IMO we've only come close in a couple of games to repeating last season's form - the home games with the Arse and Chelski, top opposition.

Against the Arse, we were absolutely spanking them, as we did last season ... until around the 70th minute when we started blowing out of OUR Arses and allowed them to level. One of the stories of our season that isn't it? Our fitness levels.

Conversely against Chelski, we started with our heads up our arses, but our response to going two down in 3 minutes was magnificent! We were all over them! A mixture of bad fortune and dumb plays at critical moments prevented us from taking something from an impossible position.

My point is that already this season, the players have clearly demonstrated the same form and ability that thrilled us so much last season. The players CLEARLY have the capacity and ability to receive and play the ball in tight situations with sharp one touch football which pulls teams all over the place, which you deny they have.

I accept teams are setting up differently against us. I don't think they press us hard in midfield, per se. They press us further up the pitch, principally with 2 wide men preventing Coleman and Baines storming forward. By and large, the opposition simply sets up with straight lines across defence and midfield. They are happy for us to continually and ponderously pass it backwards and sideways until we meekly surrender the ball.

Unlike yourself, I think it is this SLOW rhythm of play that is killing us! We were at our best last season with the rapid one touch passing - under pressure - than this look up and go backwards play we are enduring this season. The players DO have the ability to play the Martinez way you continually claim they are not capable of.

Martinez has facilitated things for the opposition by not selecting TRUE wide players in front of our full backs, such as Pienaar, Mirallas and Delboy last season.

Now I know injuries and the fact Delboy is no longer with us is partly the cause of that, plus the vagrancies of McGeady and Atsu. But Roberto's picks for the wide positions in front of Coleman and Baines have negated our greatest threat, offered them no support offensively or defensively and the result is our winning formula of last season is completed neutered and our players look bad, as your (mistaken, IMO) evaluation of the player claims.

They DO have the ability, but Martinez's selections and tactics are not getting the best out of them as he did last season.

For me, one of our best performances of the season came at the start of this bad run - away to Wolfsburg. Now some claim we were lucky to get a win. I totally disagree. We rode our luck in the first half, but as in the home game, they were largely limited to long range shots outside the area.

The longer the game went on, the more solid our defence looked. I turned to my son early in the second half and said ... "we'll get a second soon, just watch." And we duly did.

Lukaku and Mirallas combined brilliantly that night. But key to victory was our magnificent defence. And who was our back four? The much maligned Hibbo, Jags, Distin and Garbutt. Coleman and Baines were absent.

Indeed, the whole line up was interesting. We had Lukaku up front with Eto'o playing behind him, Mirallas and McGeady wide and we started with McCarthy and Besic in central midfield, but James had to go off with his hammy after just 30 minutes and our wee diamond, the also much maligned Ossie came on. We bossed it from there on in.

What do you notice about the side? It's extremely well balanced, round pegs in round holes, the enforcer axis of McCarthy and Barry missing, Barkley only appearing for Eto'o in the last 15 minutes (when the job was already done) ... and we did a number on the second best team in the Bundesliga on their own patch.

I really thought THAT was our turning point, back to our best ... but since that night Roberto's picks and tactics AND the team have been dire!

So no Raymond. I strongly disagree with you. We have the players. I hope - I truly hope - we also have the manager to turn this around.

He thinks we're Barcelona. We're not.

There's an awful lot more to it than simply having two centre halves who aren't the best in possession. I think if you look at centre halves across the PL, you'll find Jags and Distin are actually pretty good with the ball at their feet compared to most.

I do agree Stones is our best ball playing centre half though.

Personally I think if RM was the captain of the Titanic he would have seen hitting the iceberg as a pivotal moment and everything afterwards could only get better and as a bonus, would help character building & overall team spirit

Rom comes across as mature, intelligent and loyal in this article. He and Besicbauer are our two biggest assets, no question.

While I remain sceptical about Roberto, this article gives me hope.

Nil satis nisi optimum!

Just seen it now...

James 103, Redshite collapses are never as bad because they have players who demand performances? probably. I’m convinced that Liverpool changed their style immediately after Gerard called Everton, Stoke, after the derby match at Goodison two years ago. We had mixed it up and fucking battered them. Coming back from a two-goal deficit, to get something out of a derby game, for the first time in my lifetime. Only the Mirallas injury prevented us from winning that game, and Gerrard was fuming because his team was second best.

Anyway, back to the present, but didn’t England get to a World Cup semi-final, only losing on penalties, because the squad had asked the manager to change?

As many others have said before, other teams have seen how to nullify us, this has been the difference.

Add to the fact that our numerous 30year old are all another year older and are playing like it doesn't help either.
Speaking of which their going to have to replaced somehow, and that's going to cost a pretty penny for quality replacements.

Eh? Raymond ... I think your opening paragraph is one of the most nonsensical, non sequitur posts I've ever read on this site. Truly bewildering statement.

Then you follow up with "As many others have said before, other teams have seen how to nullify us, this has been the difference."

Jesus H Christ with a capital J... so, we just accept it with a shrug of the shoulders?????

WE can all see it ... we're discussing it to death! What is the man whose job it is to counter this counter by opposition doing about it????!!!!

Sorry Raymond, but your last post is pure gibberish obfuscation.

That's exactly why Besic should be playing every single game in lieu of Barry. He's a fucking beast.

Someone else also posted that what concerns them most is that Martinez couldn't see what the problem is. I respectfully disagree. I think he could definitely SEE what the problem is. I think he honestly THOUGHT we could stick to his possession based style and we could PLAY our way out of this malaise.

All the reason in the world to be happy with this meeting of the minds and the subsequent change in approach.

BTW Tony Draper - what a great post @ 117.

It's been a long and trying season thus far. Let's see where we are at after January. Man City is going to be a tall order. There's still issues. I think after the next 4-5 games we will realize if this "adjustment" has helped steer the ship in the right direction.

On the other hand I think it's bad that Rom's tried to take credit for it. That shows some lack of respect for RM.

I'm re- watching the game on TV and one of the overriding thoughts is how crap Barkley was for most of the game. It seems to me like he need to focus in games so much more tha he does at present.

Everton are never quite as bad (if we don't get beaten) as they often look on the day! I've still got massive faith in Jags although he had a nightmare on Monday. Besic and Lukaku were excellent.

You can't beat the more objective view from a TV game after the event !

Even better, if you can make sense of Raymond's response, please interpret its meaning and enlighten ME.

Move along, la... no bitching going on here.

Here's to your health ... and Everton's!

Regardless, all the best to you!

I'm hoping Roberto comes good, but I do have fundamental concerns now: team selection (Barry, McGeady - Besicbauer not playing every game), transfers (Alcaraz, Robles, McGeady - but then he also bought Rom and The Bosnian Stare) and substitutions (more than once McGeady for Besic - quite quite unacceptable) and asking players to play in the wrong position (Nace, Ross and so on). Oviedo should've been brought back earlier. He does have his favourites (Macca, Barry) and is blinded by that sometimes.

On a more positive note: let's hope some momentum from the goal against WHU (bit desperate I know) is carried forward to tomorrow's game and that we get behind the players at the Old Lady and create an upset. I'd love it.

Nil satis nisi optimum.