Martinez: More Questions Than Answers

If that's to top 4, and Spurs, then Stones and Barkley, possibly Coleman, is it.

BK doesn't get shot of managers on a whim. But Bilic was available. Bielsa is available. If moving forward means having a shot at top4 once again, then Robert Martins does not do that.

We're just making up the numbers. We either take a gamble on a Bielsa type, or live with what we've got.

Agree with Howard. Does have good games on his day, but simply does too many mistakes for the standard of a Premier League keeper. I'm not sure Robles is the answer either, although should be given a chance.

Agree with some of the deadwood as well, who some at least should be gone. I wouldn't get rid of Hibbert and Osman though. I think the atmosphere of the dressing room is understated and having these two around, who clearly love Everton, is setting good examples.

Then we have the McCarthy conundrum. He is a very
important player for me. He's a defensive midfielder so why should he be the one doing the defence splitting pass? That's Barkley's or Deulofeu's job. He puts in the miles. I think the game on Tuesday will see hopefully how good he is, and how important Barry might be to the team. Cleverley or Gibson might play, not sure which instead, but both clearly more forward thinking players than Barry. That will be interesting if we look more threatening going forwards and less solid defensively. That's a tough one because in 75% of the season, I think he's been good.

Then I think Lennons been a good signing, just because of his pace and he offers balance and different options. You'd never play Mirallas and Deulofeu in the same team unless the team were intent on defending a lead, but one of them could play with Lennon so were not too open.

I'm looking forward to Tuesday anyway, I can take losing to Arsenal and even to Utd who were very good on their day, but if we're not challenging top 6 after the run of games we have at Xmas, seeing we've played most of the tough teams already, then we have problems.

The Howard situation is the prime example. The contract he was given was clearly a massive mistake, it was obvious at the time too, but he sanctioned it, and so it reflects badly on him if he just drops him which he clearly should have done years ago.

The other contracts he sanctioned for Hibbert, Osman, Gibson, McGeady, Barry etc are almost charity contracts, they are liabilities to the club and reflect very badly on the manager.

Looks like the only way to get rid of Howard will be crowd reaction, a bit like last season with the sideways passing, when Goodison reacted with fury at one point and effectively willed things to change.

Which is sad really in a way because it means he just drifts through the season under no pressure or expectation, knowing that regardless of results, league position, performances and tactical acumen, he will be here next season. Although on the other hand it does allow for stability.

He hasn't learnt from last season and is still making the same mistakes. We are still starting games sluggishly and now deciding to gift 2 goals to teams before we actually decide to play our 'best' football, in the last half an hour.

In the first ten games we've had a difficult start having played all of last season's top 7 but now in the next 9 until Spurs at home in January he has no excuses as we have a run of winnable games. Anything less than 21 points in that sequence would be unacceptable and would surely warrant increased scrutiny and pressure on Roberto's shoulders.

As for the Howard situation, he is too sentimental and not ruthless enough. He wouldn't dare to drop him and risk a powerful voice in the dressing room falling out with him. We all know full well that the only way Robles will get a run of games is if he gets suspended or injured. Howard's position is secure and he knows it.

There is no competition for his place, as Martinez himself said last season that it's 'Tim's to lose'. What kind of message does that send out to Joel? Regardless of performance, he will never get an opportunity. So much for the 'competition for places' that he prides himself on.

It's not just the goalkeeping position, it's all areas. I hope Galloway doesn't get similar treatment when Baines returns from injury. I will be far from pleased if he's just shunted back to the bench for the rest of the season in a 'Thanks mate but you were only ever a short term option' message. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

If by the start of the New Year we aren't in the top 8 minimum, Roberto should be coming in for scrutiny.

Many posters were for giving Martinez the benefit of the doubt and keeping him for the remainder of the season and, this present one. Again we are talking about the same things as last season, tactics, personnel, for example playing 2 DMs’ regardless of the opposition, using Lukaku in an obvious unsuitable role of single striker with his back to goal most of the game, slow build up play, continual crosses across the back 4 before belatedly looking for the forward pass, etc etc etc.

My point is, can anyone truthfully say that the fare we are being served up so far this season is noticeably different from the dross we suffered for most of last season? I really can’t see a great improvement from last season. In a way I admire Martinez’ persistence to continue with a method of play and playing his favourites to carry out that method when it and they are not working. His stance over the John Stones saga was excellent, in my opinion.

At the end of the day my belief that he is not the manager for my team remains.

You say a 77% win rate is required in our next 9 games; otherwise Roberto will come under increasing scrutiny.

Currently the league leaders Manchester City and Arsenal have been unable to perform to that level in their opening ten games – how on earth are Everton supposed to achieve your aims, with key players missing, confidence hardly at a high point and the manager still struggling to find his preferred formation?

BTW, I hope your studies are going well.

Like his predecessor, he will be judged by the board, not on cups etc but by keeping us safe from relegation. Also, like OFM, he will gather a legion of fans for simply doing that.

The sequence of games on paper at least are winnable, which means nothing I know, but if we are trying to get European football next season, we need to take as many points as we can from the fixtures ahead.

If Roberto still doesn't know his best team or formation nearly 3 years into his tenure, then that is down to tactical ineptitude, it's as simple as that. I wouldn't think that confidence is low yet, it probably would be if we dropped points against the likes of Sunderland, but having played all of last season's top 8 I think we're doing OK.

I think obviously that we should be a lot higher. Watford, Swansea and the derby were definite dropped points, especially the derby against one of the worst Liverpool sides I've ever seen, that was really disappointing.

But with the run of games we have, hopefully we can get as many points as possible in that sequence to set ourselves up for the second half of the season, where we have to go to the Etihad, Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford etc.

The 21 point barrier I suggested is what I think on paper at least, is the minimum we can take. Optimistic I know.

Fast forward to Martinez. He takes a gun to a gunfight??? Do me a favour. This season alone we have been battered by both Mancs at home, struggled to a point at home to a very poor RS team and got out customary defeat against the Arse. If we took a gun to the fight it must have been a plastic cap gun.

Patrick I understand where Ross is coming from. A lot of supporters have been making Martinez excuses about all the so called hard games we have just played reasoning that the next lot of games will be easy so on that reasoning then we should be looking for that points tally against the so called lesser clubs shouldnt we??

Fact is our expectations have been lowered significantly since Martinez has been here and now if we don't get the suggested points tally over the next 10 games then the apologists will be blaming money, BK or any other shit excuse to masque the fact we are playing shit football with players who are vastly underperforming all managed by a fella who keeps telling us that we are unlucky/showed great endevour/so unlucky to pull those ever increasing deficits back. Say what you like about Moyes but when we played badly you just knew that the next game would be different amd you would see a reaction. Now I personally have absolutely no confidence that next week will be any different from most if the rest of the shite mind numbing football we have witnessed for the last 18 months and ko amount of excuses from the apologists will change my mind about it. The only thing that will change my mind is a complete u turn of attitude and winning playing style on the pitch. However I don't think I should hold my breath just yet.

Alongside this there needs to be judicious use of whatever funds we have available in purchasing more developed players from foreign leagues on the back of a decent scouting network. We have to accept that, in the short term at least, we do not have a board that is willing/able to pump money into player purchases from their own resources. I don't blame them for that, unless the amounts are in the 100's of millions there is no guarantee of success. Even when it is at that level Chelsea, United, City and Arsenal have signally failed to dominate in the past years. Our neighbours and Tottenham are the next level down in net spend and are going nowhere.

If nothing else Everton's situation requires a consistent approach over an extended period of time to see results from these two approaches. God forgive me for quoting Harry Redknapp but he consistently talks about Everton as a proper club that gives managers a chance. In my view, and my mate thinks I am a nutter for believing it to be so, two and a half years is not enough, three may not be enough. Few businesses in trouble would expect a turnaround in a that time frame, if football is a business why should we expect differently? We do because we are emotionally involved and no enterprise whatever it is prospers on the back of emotional rather than rational decisions.

Are there signs of progress? Yes certainly: look at the development and chances given to Stones, Galloway, Garbutt, Browning and Berkeley. Before anyone points out that they were already at the club ask yourself how many might have been "blooded" as they have been under the previous manager or at other clubs aiming at a top 6 finish.

Have there been mistakes? Absolutely; tactically, with team selection and with substitutions. There have also been good tactical decisions, good team selections and good substitutions but on balance I think that Roberto Martinez is in deficit with those aspects of his job.

Ultimately, given the current playing staff we have and their levels of experience and development anything beyond 5th or 6th would represent a strong season from an improving Everton squad. After the start that we have had against the teams that we have played I would have been delighted to have had 3 more points than we have. I could go through the reasons why we haven't got those and, sadly, Tim Howard features largely as do Ross Barkley's failures to mark at corners and to track back.

These are things the manager must accept responsibility for. He picks Howard and the coaching and scrutiny of Barkley isn't addressing the problem. A harder nosed board who understood the game might ask questions about addressing these, a director of football certainly would. We don't have the first, I don't advocate the second but within the coaching staff there needs to be a critical friend who will ask those awkward questions. Clough had Peter Taylor, Shankly had the boot room, Howard Kendall had Colin Harvey. If there is nobody with sufficient stature on the coaching staff maybe Joe Royle could be the key.

Give the man time, give him the right support.

So standby for more of the same, 2 DCMs and Howard in goal for the EPL games.

I just feel as though we've started games too negatively, looked to sit deep and invite teams on and in turn hope to pinch the ball and counter, but then when we do win the ball, we look lethargic in our movement and don't commit enough men forward. Our build up play either on the counter or in general is very slow and pedestrian and is played sideways and backwards a lot and teams press us and win the ball off of us too easily.

Then there's the defending. Our marking at set pieces and defending balls from set pieces isn't great! We seem to of become a soft touch and aren't dominate in our own penalty box, and for that matter, a bit soft when it comes to getting stuck in and it's reminding me a lot of last season again and it doesn't look like we've learned from our mistakes.

But I'm not gonna start jumping on Martinez' back just yet as I wanna see how we react in these next set of games. I wanna see a different mindset by us and be on the front foot from the off and look to get on the ball and get at teams. If we can get on a run and gets some wins under our belts then great, we could kick on, but if we carry on going about games in the same manner as some already this season, then I think we're going to struggle once again.

And if we finish bottom half again this season, then I think serious questions will have to be asked of Martinez and his methods and wether or not he's going to be the right man to take us forward?! IF we have another shit season, it could open up a right can of worms with regards to players. We would end up losing one or two of our best players, and could struggle to bring in the right kind of quality to improve us.

But hopefully Martinez turns things around and kicks us on.

As for the players, I think we all agree that Howard as had his day. The man peaked at the last World Cup and hasn't got anywhere near that form since and Martinez did make a mistake when he didn't bring a goalkeeper in in January or atleast this summer.

As for McCarthy I do get what the original poster is saying about his passing etc and he could be more adventurous but what he does bring is graft and running to CM. He covers a lot of ground and gets back in and doubles up for Coleman and screens the CB's well and you need players like that in your team to compliment the flair players in the side. What we need to do is either show some faith in either Cleverley or Besic to finally partner McCarthy or if Martinez doesn't think their the right midfield partner him then we need to be scouting players that are more suited to the role. Personally I think either would be more than capable as their both energetic and work hard aswell as always showing for the ball and having decent passing ranges.

But let's see how we get on from here. But if we get back into the habits of last season and underperform then I think Martinez' days could be numbered after this season.

Martinez gave us hope initially, but now I’m actually worried about the getting to 40 points thing. We should never be in any danger but with his calm demeanour and terrible decision making over essentials like player recruitment and contract renewals, as well as his stubbornness over style of play and keeping the biggest liability I’ve ever seen in goal, then a disaster is always more likely than under the previous incumbent.

Clueless and indecisive are his main attributes.

Taxi for Bobby!

Martinez has had 10 times the backing Moyes had and has had the benefit of inheriting a good squad and youngsters maturing at the same time.

I couldn't honestly say that any of the Martinez signings has been good value.

Two pence transfer budget and middling wage budget... no-one outside the money six did what he did. And all with Phil Neville in midfield!

Hibbert has started 6 games in the past 4 seasons yet was given another season. Osman himself wanted to retire towards the end of last season but was talked into another year. I understand his performance at Reading showed he was completely finished. Pienaar also was ready to finish. It is doubtful he will reach his previous standard even if he does make it back. Howard was clearly in decline last season but was given a 5-year contract. His decline has continued. Barry was given a massive 3-year contract at the age of 33. We were told he could play till 40. He can no longer cover the ground to get forward or get a tackle in and now his passing is going.

All these can no longer perform at Premier League standard and should have been replaced in the summer.

Steve, the quote of "I would dearly like to avoid the process of looking for a new manager." I may be in the minority here but my belief was the job was already Martinez's after they beat Everton in the cup at Goodison and despite BK's comments of searching all over Europe, talking to lots of football people, it was only Wigan that gave him permission to talk to their manager.

Yes, Martinez may have given young players a chance, (but I will stand to be corrected by more knowledgeable supporter... ) was Stones not brought in as right back for Coleman when he was injured, and moved to a central position after Distin got dropped, and then his displays meant he stayed in? With Galloway and Garbutt showing good form, would they have played if Baines did not get injured, and how many games has Browning played?

I am not a fan of Martinez, but I have never said he should be fired, as I believe he is doing a good enough job himself, that if he was in another club he would be. To me this manager showed his true character after getting Wigan relegated he stated that he did not believe he was the right man to get them back into the Premier League, and then I seen a quote after Kliipy Klopp was hired by Liverpool that he showed what a true character he was (or words to that effect) of staying with Mainz after he got them relegated.

The football under Martinez is not entertaining let alone winning.

Against Arsenal, in the first half at least, I thought we looked like a bunch of strangers, not a team that trains all week together.

We're on course for 49 points ( if my maths is correct), acceptable? Most definitely not and I certainly don't think the next ten matches are going to be any easier than the first ten.

I believe we're on a slippery slope to mediocrity or are we already there? To think there could be another four years of this dross and probably another contract before that one expires. Depressing.

Maybe it’s just coincidence and I’am not saying that he orders players not to score, but that we as team are very cautious and we are playing our cards on developments in later stages of the game.

I would add to that my impression that playing with 2 or 3 defensive midfielders will always hinder our progress and that we will occasionally beat some big team with that type of midfield but in a long run there are not much hope until we start playing with only one player in front of defense.

You cant use the argument who else would be better to justify keeping a man who is presiding over the most tedious football seen at Goodison for many a year. Who would be better? Anyone with a heartbeat really. This guy in my opinion just doesnt have a clue and the fact that people are championing hus cause just goes to show how far we have fallen and just how low our expectation levels are falling. If anyone can see progress or see the seeds of a top 4 side then please kindly let me have whatever it is youre taking because all I can see is my beloved Everton limping slowly downwards.

My point was that he doesn't recognise his winning formula (stumbles upon by accident) and reverts to his Philosophy the next game.

When he first started at EFC and we were playing great football and getting some fantastic results, his post-match comments indictated he was still implementing his style...he didn't recognise that the style of football first displayed is the style of football desire...

IMO Martinez has not got a clue...

As I have pointed out before, the big thing Moyes lacked was having the bottle to have a go at the so called top 4 away from home. If he had then by now we could have already been celebrating some silverware. Wr always managed to terrify the top 4 at Goodison but shied away from that when away from home for some reason. Spurs and RS have made some very poor appointments as managers, a bit like ourselves with Martinez and all of us are suffering. Money never guarentees success, look at Man Utd in the 80s. The current board took the easy option of appointing Martinez because if a cup win, never mind the relegation he achieved. I quite liked the look if the Porto manager before we appointed Martinez but that appeared to be a bit too ambitious for BK. I don't have all the answers but surely there is someone out there who can work on a budget and spot talent and put a team on the field that can compete for 90 minutes.

I had those aspirations of surviving in the Premier league and maybe sneaking a cup win before Moyes arrived, such was the level of expectation then. Now I expect us to challenge the top 6 and win a trophy once in a while. Such is the level of expectation that was built while Moyes was here. Whether we will ve able to lure a decent manager here after the last couple of years is debatable. The time to get a good manager capable of taking us forward was when Moyes left, when the club stock was high but we ended up with a complete duffer in Martinez who got his last team relegated with the kind of football we are witnessing now.

I really don't want to turn into a club that changes managers every couple of years, just take a bit of time and make the right appointment in the first place and not the easy choice like we did. There must be plenty of hungry managers who play good football and can talent spot decent players who would love to be Everton manager.

You might be content with that. Fortunately the vast majority of Evertonians most decidedly aren't, and particularly when watching the fare being served up is like having teeth pulled.

The Ancelotti's of this world will not touch us with a barge pole. No spending power you see, our sad lot for the moment and foreseable future is also ran managers until the big sugar daddy comes along.

Martinez may be the best we can afford at the moment but that doesn't mean he's any good.

Rightly or wrongly given the disproportionate resources in the game, he said that the majority of managers should not be judged on whether they win trophies. They should judged on how they develop and improve players and their team.

Judging EFC on trophies these past 20 years is not a pleasant task.
So what about on player and team development as a straw to clutch at?

Moyes certainly developed the team over a period of years.
But on this score, how is Roberto doing?
It's only a couple of years since he's arrived but, personally, I don't see a great deal of progression, despite him shelling out a few quid.

Who of our talent pool has developed greatly as a player these past couple of years?
Coleman? McCarthy (£13m)? Barkley? Mirallas? Lukaku (£28m)?
Stones is coming on OK. Deulofeu may yet progress.
Galloway certainly looks promising but it's a bit early to judge in his breakthrough season.

I obviously hope the Everton manager succeeds but unfortunately I remain unconvinced on both player and team development. And the promise of CL football seems pie-in-the-sky at the moment from where I'm sitting.

Which leaves the League Cup as a decent starting point as I always think it is winnable.

Mike, I think he is ruining a generation of players at our club whether or not he gives them opportunity to play.

I don’t think the club will get rid this season. But on the basis of my previous post, I don’t see much in the way of individual or team development under this regime.

I hate to say it but, if anything, things have gone backwards with what is being served up on the pitch. I have this ominous feeling that as we approach the Christmas period, we’ll be looking anxiously below us rather than above, a concern amplified by an upturn in form that Villa and Sunderland may experience with a new man at the helm.

Worried.

Everton are spinning their wheels with this attitude of "survival at all cost" - with the money pouring into the league, the only real winners are the board. Coming onto ToffeeWeb is like going into a time warp. The same deadwood that Moyes had is still puttering around finch farm 4/5/6 years later. Tim Howard signed to 4 more years? Barry for 3 (2 more)?? Tell me Martinez is getting a kickback. The club is so fucked up I don't even know where to begin. The silver lining of course is that we have a decent nucleus of young players. If only we could play to their STRENGTHS and really utilize them to play some inventive gung-ho, eye-pleasing stuff. But then you have to remember that 40 point thing and the fact that it's "survival at all cost" and the 2 holding mids get penciled in again. Martinez will never be sacked and he'll never learn (if he didn't learn after last season he never will). Welcome to football purgatory. What's that in Latin?

Q. Welcome to football purgatory. What's that in Latin?

A. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

Agree with your points by the way.
I increasingly think that staying afloat is the limit of our ambitions.

We do not have a leader on the pitch, a player that cajoles, inspires and encourages his team mates, someone like a battling commanding midfielder. Players in these positions with the right spirit and skill would be my number one priorities.

Otherwise, we will just drift aimlessly through the season. Last night, we looked like a poor mid- to low-table outfit without a cat in hell’s chance of winning a thing.

My view voiced on here was that he should be given until November. Well, he has learned very little - dogmatic tactics with two CAMs even at home, cannot sort a defence out, buys wingers then never plays them, awful set pieces, insane reliance on a terrible keeper, one injury to Lukaku away from complete disaster.

Like deluded Brendan, he should take little project somewhere else.

There will be plenty of managers out there who can take us further than this guy. I genuinely don't think the players are all that bad.

Helen. What you are getting now seems to be all you want as you say "staying in the Premier League and getting close to winning a cup." As far as getting a new stadium, at the present time we have an average gate of over 38,000 and that is one of the pluses to a potential investor. With any dissatisfaction over the type of play at Goodison, attendance may start to decrease and, once that happens, it is difficult to get supporters to return.

Instead of looking at Martinez’s record in his first season, why not look at his overall period in the Premier League? I am not aware, but most probably be corrected, of a top 6 Premier League club hiring a manager who was relegated from the Premier League the season before, and especially one who did not believe he had the ability to return them back to the Premier League.

I am most probably in a minority who did not think Martinez should have been hired and believed he was only hired because his team beat Everton on the way to the FA Cup Final. As an Everton supporter, I backed him as the manager, but as an Everton supporter, I expect that improvements to be made. After his first season, we seem to be going backwards in style and effort, even fitness, and in the overall picture this is the manager's responsibility; that is why the negativity about him seems to be increasing.

What about a player that grew up supporting Everton only to have maybe played their trade at a rival? Maybe they remember the force we used to be and would have an interest in helping us get back to where we belong? Why aren’t we asking for one of those ex-players?

Kenwright has been the death of this club but at least we’re now keeping players. Let’s find a manager that can get the most out of this roster. He clearly isn’t, so what’s the fear in trying to find a coach who actually could?

The OP stated "sometimes his team selections are baffling".

I have to say that particular selection absolutely baffled me.

That’s a very naive statement to make. It’s quite worrying as well. He’s learnt nothing from his Wigan days. You can’t just gift cheap goals every week and expect to get away with it every time.

Yes, you can get away with it against the likes of West Brom and Barnsley, but we’re starting games so sluggishly and we seemingly only wait until the last half an hour these days before we start to play our ’best’ football. That’s when we go ’gung ho’. That’s not RM’s ’philosophy’ in effect, that’s just desperation at that point in games.

It’s concerning that he’s so dismissive of our defensive problems.