Can't see the wood for the trees

Moyes never had £28M to spend on a striker or a wealth of talent with options a plenty in every position. So I'd say Martinez does have higher expectations to achieve more than Moyes. Gone are the days of only loans in or a transfer kitty of £150,000 (even though that would get 2 Seamus Colemans. This squad is young but should of grown together and progressed more as a team over the last 3 years, and not just as individuals.

Anyway, yes, get behind the team. And though I never knew him personally I'm going to miss Harold on here. COYB

Martinez has taken a top 6-8 side and turned it into a bottom-half club in 2 seasons whilst spending money doing it.

The manager needs to go as before he does damage. We accept mediocrity too easily.

And the reason Moyes never had £28 million to spend on a striker is nothing to do with the board and everything to do with the TV cash that’s been coming in. Let’s not kid ourselves here, they didn’t spend their own money then and they are not doing it now.

You’re placing expectations on Martinez that simply weren’t there for the previous manager. So why should there be higher expectations? If we are going to judge Martinez fairly, let’s judge him on what’s gone on before.

David @ 3. It’s the board who have accepted mediocrity not the supporters.

Moyes guaranteed you a top eight finish, consistency and something to play for, albeit qualification for the Europa League, right up to the end of the season. Martinez, despite all the individual highs, guaranteed you ever increasing mediocrity and disappointment.

As Jack said above, Moyes managed to achieve more with less. Martinez took what positives Moyes left him, solid organisation and defence, and with more cash and more quality to hand, proceeded to make the squad's performances worse.

While I would agree with you, Matt, that Martinez was given the same initial remit as Moyes – survive – he has had more of a chance to do more than that and simply hasn't.

Moyes was shopping in a different marketplace compared to RM so it's not even a fair comparison and for BK to hire a manager based purely to win a cup and create a short term legacy off the back of that theory is idiotic. Besides I don't want a short-term legacy, only to be relegated or finish in the bottom half of the table thereafter.

I will always get behind the team no matter who manages Everton but it doesn't hide the fact that RM is just not good enough. He is slowly losing the fans and the players and I can't see much changing whilst he remains in charge.

I'll say one thing, I'd back Martinez any day of the week to win a cup over Moyes. At least he has a record of winning something. He beat us at home. And beat the most expensively assembled squad in English football history at Wembley. Something that under Moyes we failed to do, cause ya know, we brought a knife to gunfight.

That was his remit. His remit wasn't to surrender games at home by having a team playing without heart, guile, or just effort.

His remit wasn't to be leading in more than a couple of games only to lose the lead and lose the game in unacceptable circumstances.

His remit wasn't to fill supporters heads and hearts with expectations beyond what he could deliver, even with the "best squad since the league winning one of the '80s".

His remit wasn't to talk total bollocks, avoid issues, and generally come out with ridiculous statements about us "not under-performing," about "the result not being as important as the performance."

In short, he raised expectations, and has failed to deliver on those expectations.

There are players in that squad whose talent is being limited and wasted by someone who doesn't know how to get the best out of them... and if you're happy winning the FA Cup and finishing in the lower half of the league (or worse), then more fool you. IMHO.

The football we played in 2006-07, 2007-08 and at times after that during the Moyes era was as good as I've seen for years with the silk of Arteta and Pienaar complimented by the steely leadership of Carsley, Cahill and a rugged defence.

We beat Sunderland 7-1 with dazzling football, how about the Leon Osman goal against Larissa??

Even during Moyes's last 18 months, the only thing we lacked was big money to splash on a top quality goalscorer. The football was good, we had a 4-4 draw at Old Trafford and beat Fulham and Sunderland 4-0 in successive home matches.

It's rubbish to suggest Martinez has totally rewritten the rule book when it comes to attacking with style. It's done slightly differently to the way it was under Moyes but I think, looking back and comparing, the end results are not much different at all.

What's also worth remembering is Martinez inherited a good team when he took over from Moyes and he's also had much much more cash to splash in a short space of time to put together what should on paper be a team capable of better results.

But let’s say that was true. Three years ago, was he given the funds to accomplish it? Compared to Moyes, LVG, at United, Rodgers at Liverpool, or Mourinho at Chelsea, Peligrini. C’mon we’ve been sniffing around the trough since Kenwright took over, but never had our snouts in it. The last manager who was seriously backed was Howard Kendall, maybe even Colin Harvey. Do you seriously expect someone to get in the Champions League with the funding Martinez or Moyes for that matter, was given?

You’re going to quote Ranieri and Leicester, it’s brilliant. Let’s see how they do next season before we herald the next Brian Clough. Our former peers are going to spend big next season. To ensure that is the exception that proves the rule. Nevermind the likes of West Ham and Stoke, Southampton etc...

Jim the football under Moyes was Pullis-esk in it’s tedium. Fair enough, maybe he couldn’t afford the tools but when he could, at Man Utd, it wasn’t much better to be honest. It wasn’t the halcyon days, that’s for sure.

He has always and always will be a percentage manager, uninspiring and safe. Martinez for all his faults, is a cup manager. Exciting and unpredictable. He is what it says on box. Would I purchase it, no. Kenwright did though. Ask yourself why?

You talk of legacy. The only legacy this manager will give us is bullshit interviews; how not to prepare pre-season; square pegs in round holes; along with systematically taking apart the defensive structure laid down by Moyes, not that I am defending Moyes you understand!

One more season of this manager, we might even add a relegation fight to this list of "legacies".

What he didn't say was WHEN he would deliver this or HOW he was planning to do it. Nor did he say which particular set of players he would use to achieve that goal.

Answer: Champions League Football.

Considering everything that’s gone on before. Imagine for one second, all those Evertonians out there who have never seen an FA Cup final, let alone, win one.

Don’t you think they are going to see him as a hero, irrespective of how we do in the Premier League and the disastrous home form. Which, if he wins it, no-one will be mentioning come May.

@ Alan 16. Preliminary Champions League football. There’s a difference.

I suggest this post might fire him up the polls a bit!

There are so many reasons which cause me to feel this way but they have been done to death on TW. However, I take your point – maybe we should get off his back to give him the best possible environment to see if he can lift that elusive FA Cup; as you quite rightly point out, many of our younger supporters have never seen us lift silverware.

If he does win that Cup, the sea change of opinion about him will no doubt be positive but for me it will be the agony and the ecstasy – he wins then happy days – but then he stays, leading to not so happy days.

The way he has managed this group of players in the league is nothing short of scandalous. Eight fucking home defeats tells its own story. This man is only interested in trying to make something of the cup competitions. It looks to me he's only got the players interested for the cup matches as you could see in the stark contrast of the Chelsea and Arsenal games.

The league is your bread and butter. With the players we have, we should be a lot higher up the table. Win or lose the FA Cup, he must still be sacked in the summer.

I very much doubt that.

Here’s the bottom line: Martinez has achieved everything that Moyes did in three years, bar a final. Which I gather we all hope he will achieve. Give me one reason why we should expect Martinez to be sacked but somehow Moyes shouldn’t have been?

Cheers Phil @ 19. Thing is mate, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

He made us hard to beat, especially at Goodison, restored some pride and took us to 3 semis and one FA Cup final as well as Europa Cup QF.

Crucially all of this was done on a smaller transfer budget than pretty much anyone in the league, I think the overall net spend over 10 years was £8.65M (or £865k per season), by contrast Martinez has spent £47.7M in 3 years (£15.9M per season).
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/Everton/english-football-teams/Everton-transfers

I'm totally prepared to say that the football was often defensive and less exciting to watch, certainly a decent portion of early years), but this was a deliberate 'build from the back' strategy and in later seasons it got much better, it was Moyes who had the overlapping full backs and 2 wingers plus Fellaini rampaging through the middle to support the front man and it was Moyes who bought Arteta, Mirallas and Pienaar among others.

Martinez has brought some good players into the club (and spent accordingly) but he's also basically thrown away our defensive discipline, together with fitness levels and any concept of fortress Goodison. His tactics have been proven not to work, in fact its no secret that our best results have routinely come when we've abandon the possession-first mentality and played on the counter.

At the end of the day its a results business and Martinez's results this season and last haven't been good enough and are steadily getting worse. Attempts to blame the board in this case are patently ridiculous, Martinez has been handsomely backed in the transfer windows, he picks the players, he decides the tactics, he gives the pre-match talks. The only two mistakes BK has made are appointing him in the first place and failing to get rid.

Moyes, regardless of what you think of him, turned the club around, gave us a bit of pride back, made Goodison Park a fortress where even Alex Ferguson and the mighty Man Utd hated to come, made us competitive again. People have very short memories. People forget how bad we were before Moyes arrived. We were awful.

In his autobiography, Roy Keane said that Goodison Park was just a place to go and collect 3 points. That soon changed when Moyes arrived. He then slowly built a team that we could be proud of. Gone were the has-beens of Gazza, Ginola, journeymen like Pembridge and Gemmil, to be replaced by Arteta, Cahill, Pienaar, Baines etc. A team that played really good attacking football but also could keep a clean sheet (thereby negating the rubbish argument that Moyes played dour defensive football).

Moyes's shortfall was that he just didn't have the belief to win the big games away from home. At home, I went to the game expecting to win, against anybody. I read a stat the other day (not sure how true it is as I haven't checked) that Moyes only lost 5 home games in his last 90 games. Now whether its actually true or not, that stat is very believable.

Moyes's shortfall was why we needed a change to take us up a level to start to win these big games away from home. I, for one, appreciated what he had done for Everton FC (albeit with a bit of a sour taste left in the mouth from the way he left).

Fast forward to Martinez. What he did to get the job is still baffling me. He had a lucky cup win. (Yes, lucky as anybody can win a cup, it's all about managing to throw together 6 decent games over a period of 5 months... it's why we all love the cup.) He got Wigan relelgated with powder-puff football, his record before the relegation season was pretty awful too. However, the powers that be were bedazzled by the FA Cup win, so we were stuck with him.

During the first season, I actually thought maybe I was wrong as we performed well in the first half of that season. After New Year, though, the worrying warning signs and cracks started to appear. The Arsenal game at home excepted, we were pretty awful. The maulings at Arsenal in the cup and the shambles at the khazi across the park being the definite lows.

Last season was a total disgrace. We were worryingly, for a period of time, flirting with relegation. As to the decent cup run in the Europa League, well, we were lucky to get that far. Both Wolfsburg games I, and probably most fans will still wonder how we won them – let alone so convincingly. The only convincing game in the Europa League last season was Lille at home. The rest we just blustered through. The Premier League performances and excuses were dreadful, as they have been this season. We are going only one way, downwards.

To be fair, I agree that the players and manager aren't only to blame (although they deserve a lion's share of the blame). Kenwright bears a massive responsibility also for hiring this man, who is so far out of his depth it's untrue, the lack of ambition by hiring this guy is astonishing. The playing side of the club is a disaster. The sooner he goes the better. The crowd has had enough, the atmosphere is terrible, one of the worst I have witnessed considering there are full houses most weeks and I have been going to the game for 40 years.

I desperately hope we get a cup win, but that won't even come close to atoning for all the drab, awful, tepid, disgraceful football we have witnessed over the last couple of years. Martinez has no idea how to consistently win football games. His record over the last 10 years or so in the Premier League shows that. The anomaly being that first half of his first season where it is becoming increasingly apparent that those results relied heavily on the Moyes defensive organisation and the fitness levels instilled by Moyes.

An FA Cup win won't satisfy the crowd, it won't stop the dissension. The crowd want to see a winning team and Martinez is incapable of giving us that. Sooner he is gone the better. If he isn't gone in the summer, then the unrest will only grow and Kenwright, regardless of how many stories of the Boys Pen he throws out, and Martinez will really start to see the wrath of the Goodison crowd.

Enough is enough. We need somebody to start actually realising the potential of these players before they all leave. Martinez is a disgrace to football management and consistently insults all Everton fans with his pathetic excuses for failure.

In Moyes's first three seasons with extremely limited resources:

2002-03... 7th
2003-04... 17th (could have gone after that but we gave him the benefit.)
2004-05... 4th

Martinez inherited a team that finished 6th with a resolute solid defence and finished 5th. Since then it's been back-to-back rubbish with supposedly better players than Moyes had in his first three years and certainly with a hell of a lot more money to spend.

He has also destroyed the solid foundations we had built for years on making Goodison Park a fortress. It's been 18 months of complete dross.

I think you may be correct in that Kenwright perhaps thought Martinez was capable of winning a cup competition like he did with Wigan, and anything else would be a bonus. His first season was the time to cut him some slack and it just happened to work out for him.

However, it became very evident in Season 2 that Martinez's teams and tactics had been found out and our opponents knew how to play against us and of course it has gotten worse in Season 3.

If he wins us a cup (I don't believe he will – but hope I am wrong), I would say well done, thank you, and goodbye. I just don't trust him or think he is the man to move us forward.

"Crucially all of this was done on a smaller transfer budget than pretty much anyone in the league, I think the overall net spend over 10 years was £8.65M"

You're comparing apples and oranges mate. Since Martinez took over, far more money has flowed into the Premier League from TV revenue.

Here's a better comparison. Why don't you compare how much money our board members invested from their own pockets into the transfer fund, under Moyes... then Martinez. You know the answer: nothing. Zilch, Nada.

Although it sounds like you were against Martinez from the start whereas there have been times when I've been neutral if not almost pro him, I'm now fairly convinced that we must get rid.

It's always possible he may turn things around and put together consistent runs in the league but nothing in his past points towards that being a likely outcome. The board and BK are anti-knee-jerk and that should be commended I think but it's been 3 years now and the cup runs cannot hide the general decline of our standards.

Read the article again mate. It's not very long. I'm not saying that Martinez is the messiah. Far from it. What I am saying is if you want to have a pop at him. Look at were it all started.

You say it's back to rubbish. But we've got to two semi-finals now this season and a chance to progress.

So you'd agree then, if he matches the achievements of Moyes by getting into the final, it's nothing to shout about. But what happens if he matches Royle and goes on and wins it. Is it still rubbish?

He's won it before with Wigan. Something Moyes failed to do with a far more expensively assembled side... and we're still in the semi-finals, the second time this season.

The guy has been found out and needs to be gotten rid of.

Moyes had weaknesses I'm not going to be ignorant of that, of course he did. He for one will look back at the summer of 2005 and probably wish he'd done things differently in the transfer market but, to give him credit, he learned from his mistakes after that by bringing in the likes of Leighton Baines, Phil Jagielka, Steven Pienaar, Joleon Lescott, Yakubu... Fellaini was a punt that paid off in the end too.

Martinez has signed some good players: Lukaku, Barry and Lennon still the best yet for me, but he's also in the first three years bought some right duds. I'm not convinced that I'd be comfortable to give him the money during the summer and expect him to do any good with it.

Even Steve McClaren achieved that during his time at Middlesbrough, do you want him as our next manager???

But Kenwright has a history of short termism at the Club, so considering he would not be expecting to be around forever, why not leave with a cup for the fans to remember him by?

For a club like Everton, Moyes was awful; the same goes for Martinez.

Then there are tactics of Martinez, which he persists with it, but again is forced to abandon them when things keep going wrong.

Let's keep it in the here and now for unless there's a lobby for the Scotsman's return – even Doddy isn't hooked on that – he must be consigned to history.

I think the Jackie Mason joke will be on us as Roberto gets another season – FA Cup or not!

Guess it depends on how you define "close"...

Jack, like others I'm a bit fed up with people coming on and saying that all Moyes tenure was let down by "the dismal football", the "knife to a gunfight" crap. We played some scintillating football at times during Moyes's time, but this was after he'd steadied the ship.

All top sides start with a good defence, Martinez does the opposite. Martinez has also royally cocked up the sound defensive foundations that Moyes left and led everyone to believe that Martinez, after his first season, was the real deal. And Moyes had Bent; Martinez has Lukaku.

If Moyes had had the resources that Martinez has, we'd have seen Champions League football regularly and we wouldn't have the, so far, second highest number of home defeats in a season in our history. And what's more, if Martinez had taken us over when Moyes did, we'd now be in the third tier of English football.

I'm not suggesting that Moyes should come back so don't imagine that scenario.

Nail on the head. Read the article again lads. You wanna direct ire at someone. Direct it were it belongs. Who hired Martinez?

And bingo Eric at 43.

Don’t shoot the messenger lads. Bill thinks he’s giving you what you all crave. Playing you like a theater audience.

Some people lie on a resume to get a job!

If I did that and got found out I'd get fired.

He's been found out (in more ways than one)... fire him!

Not that I would want 'The Ginger One' back because I think that would be a backward step but it's a myth to say all the football was shit under him, how can a midfield of Arteta, Cahill, Pienaar in their pomp be shit?

Even with Joe Royle's 'Dogs of War', Joe got the message to the players what it means to pull on the blue shirt, he added Kanchelskis the following season and I can't remember many times when the football was shit then also, but yet again it was the owner when it all went pear-shaped.

So when fans say we've been playing some of the best attacking football in years, I've witnessed other Everton teams down the years, as stated above play some good stuff but they knew how to defend as well.

The FA Cup would be very nice but RM's numbers are damning, not to mention the amount of games where the team wasn't, eerrrr, a team!

A lot agree that the board and Bill are the root.

What a chairman

It is no good generalising the Moyes era and not Martinez's time. The Premier League is our bread and butter and that is what we and Martinez will be determined on.

I, like everyone, would love to see us win the Cup. However, Martinez should not be given a free pass after it. I'd let him stay on the bus while the Cup is paraded round the town but he should stay on it to get dropped off at Lime Street on the way out.

You'd be a lunatic to hire him on his league record. Give the lads a cup. That bloke just beat us 3-0 at home, he'll do. Fuck, we ain't gonna pay for a real manager. Or back him with our own money.

Cup football, cup team that's what the masses want. And you're all moaning about it. Look at the bigger picture. See the wood for the trees. We got exactly what we deserved.

Well, apart from Kenwright taking a share of the blame, then I still disagree with all your points. Martinez makes Moyes look like a football genius. Martinez only dazzles against the shitiest of football teams: Villa, Sunderland, Newcastle etc. The only anomaly being Chlesse in the cup and that was more effort rather than sublime performance.

Martinez has made a rod for his own back by some of the ridiculous excuses and remarks he has come out with. Barry being one of England's best ever players; Stones, Barkley being such sublime players; we shall be peaking after Xmas... February... last 10 games of the season; bad luck; referees; grass all wrong – god knows how many performance didn't deserve the result, the list is endless.

He also spouted he would get Champions League football. All utter rubbish. If he didn't preach such nonsense and told it like it is, then fans may, and I say may, given how bad results are, give him a bit more slack. As it is, that is a moot point as he does preach the nonsense, still, and is leading us towards unwanted records, namely being least number of wins in a season at home... ever!! Least number of points at home... ever!!!

So, whilst you can point fingers at Kenwright for appointing him, Martinez's record, especially at home, is all down to him and how he prepares (bit of a misnomer as it seems to be the lack of preparation that is evident) the players is nothing short of scandalous.

Yes, Kenwright is culpable but Martinez has taken incompetence to a new level to which, I'm quite sure that even Kenwright didn't think possible. He should do the decent thing and resign but that won't happen due to the arrogance of the man. It's everybody else's fault apart from his.

How you can even suggest the football is better than the Moyes years is beyond me. It's truly dreadful, and the sooner it is consigned to history, then the better.

As for your point that winning the cup will appease most people... well you obviously do the Goodison crowd a disservice. Winning a trophy will not paper over any of the dross we have been forced to endure for the past 2 years. The real fear is that we will have to endure more of the same for next season.

So, Jack, you obviously know exactly what old Bill was thinking when he hired Martinez. I say this because your post 57 has such a definitive air about it, and contradicts what BK said in his very first press conference after Martinez was hired – that Martinez told Bill he would achieve Champions League Football for Everton. Obviously, Kenwright was hoodwinking the fans, as the real reason he hired Martinez was to win us a cup so that he could go out on a "Finale", in true theatrical luvvie fashion. Wood from trees as you put it.

Do I have it about right? If so, can you, as someone who knows Bill's deepest innermost thoughts, tell us what happened to the Fortress Sports Fund money? Whilst you are it, what are the Other Operating Costs?

That would go a long way to helping us see the wood from the trees.

Don't forget Christian Atsu catching fire after Christmas!!

Come to think of it, anyone know what happened to that guy?

Maybe he really did spontaneously combust after all.

The Aiden McGeady will be fit and firing next season statement!!!

The John Stones at right back in the Anfield derby against the best attacking Liverpool team in history, didn't they score 102 goals??

Naïve man.

Because I'll tell you what: I just know exactly what I'm expecting. Another self-destruct job and a heroic failure hard-luck tale, just read the second leg at the Etihad in January. Martinez will lay the blame at the referee's door after we squander a 1-0 lead to lose 3-1. You can almost read the script.

People say we are better away from home but seriously when's the last time we won away from home against the odds at a top venue? I don't know why but I just can't see us winning a game at Wembley against West Ham Utd in their neck of the woods or against Man Utd who have bugger all else to play for apart from a stab in the dark at 4th.

Both Man Utd and West Ham Utd are above us by some distance in the league, I doubt either will fear us. If we were 5th, would we fear playing a team a few points ahead of 15th place???

I do agree that Martinez should never have been hired in the first place, but clearly Kenwright was taken in by the snake-oil salesman patter.

I was a supporter of Kenwright, despite his many obvious misjudgements over the years, right up to his "What a Manager" comment. "What an idiot" more like.

Although it would be brilliant if we did.

Wish I placed a tenner on it before the Chelsea match, now the odds are terrible. May be after the WHU - Man Utd match, the odds will change a bit.

I can guarantee you Everton will be backed to the hilt for the semi-final and hopefully to the FA Cup Final, fans will be coming from all over the world for both games, again hopefully.

But Jack, Martinez was hired for the Premier League in the main. He has failed, miserably, and although. Mr Moshiri is not on the board himself, the man he appointed is... and will be watching and reporting back to the new owner.

I understand what you are saying about Martinez and Kenwright and you could be right but it is a different game now and I am sure Martinez's days, as boss of the club, are in the final weeks. Winning the FA Cup Final will not erase the the painful memories of the last two seasons.

As for Kenwright, I hope to that he is coming to the end of his time at Everton.

"How dare you present a point of view other than 'fuck him off now!'"

So do I want him to stay?

No.

If you gave me the power to get rid or keep, right now I'd get rid.

This would not be based on bad results however, but on post match interviews after bad results.

Getting it wrong is fine with me, getting it wrong but thinking you got it right is another matter.

Saying 'I don't don't need to fix anything because nothing is broken' is asking for trouble.

For much of the last year, RM could have made things easier on himself with "We are absolutely gutted with the result, we are shooting ourselves in the foot week after week and it is down to me to find a way to fix things. Supporters have every right to be angry but rest assured, we will be doing our best..." etc.

But instead...well, you know the instead (mad, waffling, Scientology-faced positivity).

That said, anyone dismissing Jack's post out of hand, is basically doing that thing of putting their fingers in ears and going 'blurddlewurdle...'

He's right when he says the players 'haven't consistently been performing to standards, especially the senior players, particularly our defenders, that they've set themselves in previous years.'

"Yeah but that's down to the manager to motiv..." - to a degree maybe, but don't tell me Alan Ball couldn't perform unless miserable-arse Harry 'motivated' him

Jack is also right when he says 'if we do lift the cup in May, a lot of the discontent will quieten down pretty quickly and Martinez won't look so bad after all... or Bill Kenwright for that matter.'

(fair play to Dave Ganley, 58, who will not let-up in calls to get rid of a manager who has just given us our first major trophy in 20 years?)

And for those who like to fling stats about, he's right about how Martinez stacks up against Moyes (well..as right as anyone using stats to argue the opposing view).

Oh and he could be right when he says - 'Martinez is bang on target with expectations. Not the supporters' expectations but the board's expectations.'

Or to put it another way, I doubt there is one Evertonian (Martin 'I'm-off-me-jaffa' Mason aside) who believes BK and our board have gone into any season with the mentality of 'title or bust!'

When some blame the player's (shite) performances, many cry 'yeah but that's down to the manager'

True (ultimately)

Yet if the manager's performance is shite, for many it seems 'yeah but that's down to..er..the manager.'

Really?

Last week BK (nb: the man who chose Martinez and has the power to get rid of him) grabbed Moshiri ("Yer me best mate lad") and told (instructed!) him that the boss was..er..boss.

Want to scream at someone?

Scream at the person with the power.

Granted no one can predict the future but I haven't seen anything (at all) in the last 18-24 months to convince me that things will improve if there is no change of manager. Our home league form is enough to get almost any other manager in the league the sack, it's only the goals from Lukaku that have kept us safe – imagine if Rom had been injured for a view of months.

Moyes was a different time, different circumstances and vastly different financial levels. Martinez has managed to bring in some decent players but let's not kid ourselves, our best talent will leave as the manager can't take them forward. What then?

It's time to cut our losses and change before things get worse – re the semi-final, it's a semi-final. No guarantee we're going to win it at all.

I'll take a cup win and new manager thanks.

I'd love you to be right, I'd pay your winnings myself!

As far as Martinez is concerned, he can finish 17th every season for me, as long as he wins something shiny in place of our 7th placed trophy.

That isn't an endorsement of all the losses we've suffered by the way, I wouldn't be arsed if he got the bullet this afternoon, he deserves it. I will also say he should get another season if he brings home the first trophy in 21 years.

I for one am so sick of the situation I've enough bile to do both... so, with all due respect, Jack, I won't quit bitching until things improve.

You are also dead wrong about his remit; as Brian pointed out earlier, it was supposedly to get us into Champions League. If you think that was some kind of hoax, fair enough, but the remit of the manager to succeed Moyes should have bloody well been Champions League considering the much-maligned Moyes didn't finish outside the top 8 in his last SEVEN seasons with the club.

If that wasn't a springboard, I don't know what was; certainly it was more of one than what Martinez's successor will inherit.

That's my tuppence, I've very little to say that adds anything to Dave's post at #26.

Really?

Well ok but 'every season since Martinez took over' isn't 3 yet.

And in the first one, we finished with our highest ever Premier League points tally. (A fact which now strangely seems to irritate many who often become Vicky 'yeah but no but' Pollard when it's mentioned.)

The 2nd season was shite, no question.

What we've had so far of the 3rd has been shite in the league but we've done quite well in the cups and two more wins in the FA Cup means we've won it.

As I say, my choice would be he goes (at the end of the season, pointless now) but his record in almost 3 years imo compares favourably to Moyes in 11 (in as much as almost 3 seasons can be compared to 11).

Who could we have brought in when he finally left? We weren't in a position to go for much of an upgrade. Remember some of the names bandied about? Personally, I was surprised it was eventually Martinez, was pleasantly surprised initially, but now I feel he has long been found out.

We might well have the resources now via Moshiri to go for that upgrade and, regardless of how the FA Cup run ends, it's something we should go for.

Even if I'm wrong and we put two great games together and win the Cup, I still want that prat sacked. It is Martinez's fault that we will lose Lukaku in the summer, along with Stones. So it will be interesting where our goals are going to come from next season.

Now I like alternative, 'blue sky' thinking which challenges the norm and your opening post makes some valid points, but it does lean heavily on supposition and presumption on your part.

Both manager and players ARE culpable for our woeful league form, but for your to conclude "it's neither" as a central pillar to your argument causes me to immediately raise an eyebrow at your line of thinking.

As others in the thread have questioned, why today's team and manager has to be referenced to David Moyes and his teams I don't fully grasp. As others have already pointed out, your flippant dismissal of the quality of the players and football played at times under Moyes is extremely revisionist.

You even acknowledge this yourself later in the thread when stating "it's like comparing apples and oranges" because of the difference in finances.

Another supporting pillar your OP claims is that an Everton manager's remit under BK is "don't get relegated and have a good cup run."

Putting aside that is probably a given from most chairmen to their managers at every professional football club in England, David Moyes' immediate remit on appointment was to SAVE the team from the very real threat of relegation with just 9 games to do it in.

BK in presenting Roberto Martinez as our new manager didn't speak in terms of the remit you claim, but the contrary: looking up with the ambition to achieve CL football.

And yet you boldly state BK could not possibly have hired RM to garner results in the league, based on his season on season league results, but rather: "He was hired for one reason and one reason only. To win a cup. To bring some glory, create a legacy."

That is just fanciful supposition on your part Jack, so that's 2 pillars of your argument I'm not convinced by.

I understand the point you are making Jack. I really do.

But when your conclusion to all you write is: "Quit the bitchin' and get behind the team ..." Well, that's a simplistic call to arms I'm not convinced by either.

Jack ... the welfare of the club, I believe, is paramount and uppermost in the thoughts of the majority of Evertonians. Not the (always transient) present incumbents who occupy the manager's seat or who have a squad number and name on their shirt.

Blues care DEEPLY, PASSIONATELY for their CLUB. Yes, we have our favourites and our heroes. I'll play a game of nostalgia with the best of you.

As for the FA Cup, the vast majority of Blues are desperate for us to win it, regardless of what they think of the manager. Yes, there are some sad sacks who have stated they want us to lose in the Cup to guarantee RM's dismissal, but they are so few as to be insignificant. (Here's looking at you, Martin Mason...).

There is merit in what you say "if we do lift the cup in May, a lot of the discontent will quieten down pretty quickly and Martinez won't look so bad after all."

However, I think you underestimate just how great the groundswell of disastisfaction is with RM and his methods which has nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with the case you present in your OP.

Nice contrary thinking Jack, but for me, flawed.

I reckon right now you could get 3/1 maybe 4/1 for that forecast.

If I was that sure of anything (and could get 3s or better) I'd deffo be throwing a ton at it.

Problem with Kenwright and Martinez is that they are both dreamers who love the fantasy element and the limelight. Reality is Martinez is not a good enough manager for an Everton FC that has ambitions to be up where we all think it belongs.

A cup win would be lovely but would not change my mind that Martinez has to go – and, if it was my choice, he would go NOW.

Spend a little time re reading ToffeeWeb articles from the last ten years and you will discover that Kenwright and co are blamed for an awful lot, including hiring a rubbish manager and also for failing to sack him, and his predecessor, at the correct time.

What Kenwright is not to blame for is the crap that comes out of Martinez's mouth nor the crap that we are forced to watch on the pitch. That is down to the Spaniard and he deserves most, possibly not all, of the criticism that he gets. Just like Kenwright deserves most, but again possibly not all, of the criticism he gets.

At the moment it looks as though Kenwright will be around for a little longer, whilst Moshiri integrates himself into the club. But long term, I think he will be gone within a year or two. I doubt that he will damage the club too much in that time. Martinez in that time period, unless things change and we stop our descent, could well see us relegated to the Championship.

Because of this risk I, and many other Evertonians, believe that our first priority should be to get him out of the club before we have the need to hire another Moyesesque manager to stabalise the club again.

Bollocks Fella

It's the players and managers fault that we have been shite for two seasons.

I would say it's 60/40 maybe 65/35 the managers fault.

He has made them the least fit I have ever seen them.

His substitutions are fucking mystifying, not to the opposition but us and the team.

His tactics haven't changed one iota since May 2013.

They players have always had a soft underbelly and shit themselves in important games.

That's why we implode in either the semi or the final and will get our usual buttfucking over at Morfor 2 days before the semi.

He's shit, the players aren't as good as we hope them to be.

With that, I'm out.

You can stick your fucking early bird up your arse, you can stick your fucking early bird up your arse... sick your etc etc

True, Kev, but he'd forgotten how to spend money by then.
If he ever knew...I mean, he's Scottish, innit.

Prepare for the Racist, kilt wearing Police to descend from above... Anyway, he did us a real service by taking Man Utd down with him, even though his performances were better than LVG's.

The Premier League is the ultimate prize with the cups that can be won or lost in 1 game as a side show that some of the successful teams that enter the Champions League expect a win in the cups as a bonus.

The majority of the fans watch Everton at the home games and as the majority do not go to away games, they deserve better than what they are getting. If questioned, the majority would accept the style of Martinez if it brought results but the bottom line is it does not.

Forget comparisons to Moyes as he had different types of players and had to sell when told; style of play has changed and the problem with Martinez he is to stubborn to realize it.

Throw in a comparison with Moyes to add to the distraction and all of a sudden you can try and defend the indefensible.

Ignore the red herrings and concentrate on the facts. Martinez's record is there for all to see and has been pre Everton. He's a poor manager who got lucky in the cup at Wigan (ironically thanks to Phil Neville who personally gave Wigan their victory against us) and then relegated what was an established EPL club, playing the same style of open, generally losing football. He has clearly learnt nothing from his past failings as he continues to serve up a style of football that at best could be classed as naive and at worst reckless, either way it results in a low win percentage and he is on target for delivering the worst ever home league performance in our club's history. Whether he 'achieves' this or not, the fact that it's a real possibility should in itself tell anyone all they need to know about Martinez's lack of credentials.

Don't think Moshiri has invested in our club for no good reason. He will want results and Martinez will be gone.

Sometimes good players go out of form and they need their manager to stick with them and believe in them but other times you have to be ruthless and drop them like with Howard and Kone. He is of course learning his trade as he goes along as he's a young manager and I was surprised he dropped Deulofeu as much as he has for the more balanced Lennon who has done well this year but doesn't seem to quite have the get you on the edge of your seat as Geri.

To me RM has moved our club on from the Moyes days and we now do play a much better brand of football which we enjoy watching. We have much higher expectations now and he has certainly fallen down there this season in fulfilling those.

We should be at least in the top 4 or 5 if he has sorted out our leaky defensive system. When you look at this record at home and the inability to state what the problem is and rectify it then I think is not the way forward. If you can't even see what the problem is how can you fix it. He can't see the wood from the trees

It's only natural people will compare each manager with the one he's replaced.

You are correct though it's a results based business is football and if you want to compare Martinez and his team's results this season with that of Martinez and his team's results last season you will find almost identical problems and almost identical winless runs.

Last season we went from October 26 to March 15 and won just 3 league games in that period, and it was a run that saw us play 15 matches in the league.

This season we are currently on a run of 4 wins from our last 17 league matches.

I think if not necessarily needed to compare different managers we can compare two successive seasons with the same manager and come to a relatively conclusive outcome that under Roberto Martinez we quite simply struggle winning games.

Because they too refused to think they could be heading for disaster.

We don't need analysis or long arguments to dress it up.

Martinez is not good enough for EFC and never was.

No doubt winning the FA Cup would make many forget the last two years of league results and that's fine. However, I can't see how Roberto would suddenly find the right blend when he believes that he already has it at his fingertips. So, if he does stay, expect more inconsistency during the remainder of his tenure and mid-table finishes with the odd cup game to light up the bleak league performances.

I agree with Jack regarding the people who run the club, their ambitions are not in harmony with the match-going fan, but that's something we've become used to over the last 16 or so years. However, we always believed that the manager and his team were trying their best for us; that also seems not to be the case in recent months.

'We'?

Speak for yourself, even if I come to the same conclusion as you, I do want analysis.

It's a forum and if it's to be a more intelligent forum than something like bluekipper, we should offer something more than spouting opinion as though it's a scientific fact.

By the way this...

"Jack your ancestors werent involved with the Titanic project were they? Because they too refused to think they could be heading for disaster"

..is nonsense.

Of course they refused to think they could be heading for disaster - why would they think they might be heading for disaster, because they would eventually hit...an iceberg?

With that 'logic', every disaster could be avoided.

You just never do anything ever or leave the house..ever.

Kone and Osman are probably brilliant in training, that's why the present and past managers would pick them, even when they are awful playing in a real match.

I'd suggest swallowed pride for a lot of us and worth a punt. I'd be confident for all of his faults and the poisoned waters when he left, he'd be a damn sight further up the league this season with what has gone on with other clubs, and may well have been at Wembly too – given the path we've had.

Jack at 30 – it doesn't matter WHY Martinez has had more funds, or where they came from, the fact is that Moyes did more over a longer period with less to spend. It's more a case of comparing a Cox's Pippin with a baking apple – they are both apples and round... it's just that one tastes shit and the other tastes okay.

I will say though we have next to zero chance of beating either West Ham Utd or Man Utd on present form, so you can forget about a cup win being a lifeboat for Martinez.

As it is, Moyes chose to move on so such comparisons are totally pointless – just as comparing/contrasting the Catalan's record with those of Catterick and Kendall might be.

We are in the here and now and from recent comments, our revered chairman has no intention of admitting his mistake in appointing Roberto anytime soon.

As the man said, "What a manager."

What a manager, Indeed, sir!

I know you state that you also want Martinez gone, I have read your opinion many times on this site; however, in your haste to prove a point, you seem to be arguing against all and sundry who espouse that view.

"This would not be based on bad results however, but on post match interviews after bad results.

"Getting it wrong is fine with me, getting it wrong but thinking you got it right is another matter". Your words. Fair enough, however, I would counter that by saying that bad results are critical to a managers survival. As plenty of others have said, the Premier League is a results-based business and, aside from his inane post-match drivel, he is not delivering any kind of acceptable results to keep the fans happy.

Whilst I agree that Kenwright and the board should share a portion of the blame for hiring him, I'm quite sure that even in his wildest dreams, he wouldn't have figured that Martinez would be so pig-headed that he would keep making the same mistakes week after week. Fair enough also that Kenwright should have done more research into Martinez before hiring; however, again, maybe he thought he was hiring a bright up-and-coming manager who could cope with a big name club and adapt. Blatantly not and that, the manager should take a massive portion of blame.

"(Fair play to Dave Ganley, 58, who will not let-up in calls to get rid of a manager who has just given us our first major trophy in 20 years?)"

Not overly sure what you're getting at here, Eugene. First thoughts were you were just mischief-making; however, reading your other posts, I'm not too sure. Would you be quite welcoming to Martinez to stay for another couple of years on the back of delivering the FA Cup, in spite of the awful run of results for the last 2 years? Well I have to say that I wouldn't.

As I have stated earlier, anybody can win a cup if they manage to just get 6 decent results in a 5 month period. Getting the bunting out and extolling his virtues for a cup win allied with awful league results just wouldn't sit right with me. The RS got rid of Dogleash when he won the League Cup and got to the FA Cup Final. Why? Well I guess that's because they have much more ambition than we do.

That kind of mentality is probably the reason we have been in the doldrums for many years. We see the sight of a cup win and we go overboard and think we have hit the big time again. Premier League form? Who cares. We won a trophy, that'll keep us going for the next few years.

Well, I am sick of this kind of mentality. Premier League form is everything. A trophy, whilst always welcome, should never detract from doing our utmost to get as high a league placing as possible. Martinez, so we were told (probably lies but we can only accept what we're told) was going to get us reaching for the Champions League placings. Well that is as far away as it has been for quite some considerable time.

I'm not going to debate the merits or not of his first season, we all have our views on who or what was responsible for that seemingly anomaly; dealing with the here and now, we are nowhere near the Europa League let alone the Champions League placings. I accept that this season hasn't finished but does anybody seriously see us climbing the league to the dizzy heights of the top half? No me either.

My views of wanting him gone are not based on rantings or hysteria; they are based on very poor results, very poor football (witnessed weekly by a regularly subdued crowd), unwanted records in the offing (least home wins ever, least points total at home ever, in a season), and treating the match-going public as idiots by his ridiculous utterings that any sane person, including people who don't have much football knowledge, would see right through. A trophy, whilst welcome, is not enough for me to want him to stay.

Maybe I have ridiculously and unreasonably high standards for Everton FC. If so, I make no apology for that. This guy is just not good enough for us and it doesn't matter where you lay the blame, and the board have had open protests against them this season via planes and banners, he has to go at the end of the season at the very latest.

Not me.

Baking apples might taste shit, but Cox's Pippins left a much more horrible and lasting taste in my mouth (even though I stopped buying them in 2009).

Two quotes from Bill Kenwright. Tell me if you can spot the difference?

"I said he's going to be one of the greatest managers in the world. He is now one of the top five managers in the world."

"You know what I thought today? What a manager. That's what I thought."

Here's one more to note.

"Will we cheer our team no matter what the result? Yes we absolutely will."

All the way to relegation, hey Bill?

I think that most people expected a manager to take us to the next level; I sure did but he is, as you put it, pretty similar to Moyes results-wise.

I still don't think he is right for the club and we need a better forward thinking manager... who? I don't know, but there's got to be someone out there who can take this squad of players higher than they are now.

As for the players, best squad in 30 years – my arse. I do not know why we even swallow this myth.

As for a trophy, will we win the FA Cup? I think not, even though I desperately hope I will be proved wrong.

"Quality without results is pointless. Results without quality is boring."

That statement was purely for public consumption. A hoodwink. And by the way, I don't think Moyes was seriously backed either. I don't believe an Everton manager has seriously been backed since Colin Harvey.

But here are some facts that cannot be denied:

Martinez first season, 5th, record points total for the Premier League.

Lukaku, who he bought, has at least doubled in value. Barkley and Stones, who he has played regularly, have seen their value skyrocket.

This season, two semi-finals.

According to Bill and the board, that will be mission accomplished. There won't be any gnashing of teeth in the boardroom, I can assure you. If you don't like it, fair enough but down't blame the cowboy for shoddy work; blame the incompetents who hired him. See Fawlty Towers episode, The Builders.

@ Dan 107.

Do you know what has really caused the greatest divide amongst Evertonians? It wasn't David Moyes or Martinez. It was the man who hired them both. Responsible for the Kings Dock fiasco and Desperation Kirkby. Along with a whole litany of failures and subterfuge. There's a running theme here, don't you think? Let's put the blame where it should squarely sit. In the lap of Bill Kenwright.

I would like Martinez gone no matter what... but it will be a churlish Evertonian who calls for his head on the evening we win the cup. The cup will keep him here, no doubt at all, and that would be hard to gripe about.

If you want to blame the hiring, you would have general agreement that BK botched it, like many things he did. However, that does not change the fact that RM is on borrowed time only because we're still in the FA Cup. As much as we don't want OFM back (his football was better in the final years to be fair), we should not drop our expectations THAT much, from top 7 to 2 consecutive bottom half finishes, possibly even bottom 5.

Andy 110,

I'm with you in wanting him gone. This season has not impressed me at all, not even the "beautiful football" we play. UCL football is not necessarily pretty but has a general tone to be adventurous in order to win at least.

Is Leicester playing horrible (or even anti) football to get to the top? No, I think many will say their hunger to get the ball back and attack is very entertaining. As the disgraced Beckenbauer once said “The one that wins is strong.” I think the jury is still out as to whether this squad is the best we've assembled in decades, and a new manager can help verify that.

So even if RM wins the FA Cup, that SHOULD be the last day he's an Everton manager in my mind. We've digressed, cup wins do not mask our dwarfed status in EPL. We are no longer european contenders. We need a new manager to put us back there.

Incompetence runs veinlike through this club, since we last won anything, over twenty years now. I think it's a wee bit harsh to start calling one man out for it now, especially when he could be on the verge of ending that famine.

Which as I've said before, that long list of failures, might not be forgotten. But if he succeeds, the pitchforks will at least temporarily be placed down and the torches extinguished.

What I am suggesting is that money does not necessarily bring quality. Leicester have some quality.

I would argue we have similar quality. Therefore I conclude it is down to the manager to motivate that quality.

As supporters, what is it you want us to do?

Accept the status quo for another 20 years?
Fly more aeroplanes around Goodison to rid us of the board?
Put up and shut up and get on with supporting the team and the manager even when they are under-achieving?
Delude ourselves into believing that all is well and what we have is what we should expect from our club?
Look forward to the Championship?

You originally stated, quite categorically: "He (RM) was hired for one reason and one reason only. To win a cup. To bring some glory, create a legacy" (and not be relegated in the process), and as such we should "quit bitching and get behind the team."

Given the title of your OP, it would help us to see the wood clearer if you didn't bury the true meaning and motive of your post in even more dense foliage.

I see now you have contrived to present a juxtaposition of two disparate points and arrived at some conclusion very particular to you, because as the creator of the imagined scenario, it exists only in your head.

The two disparate points are:

1) (the well-disguised principal bone of contention you are arguing, as far as I am able to determine) the board and BK in particular are primarily to blame for their lack of investment in, and limited ambitions for, the club.

This has led to:

2) lazy, unimaginative appointments of low grade managers who will never be able to achieve the results the supporters so crave for their club.

Even if I accepted that your stated premise is correct (and I don't at all), the two are not mutually inclusive. Your 1st point presents it as a deliberate policy by the club's guardians, which naturally results in point 2.

I disagree – 2 doesn't naturally follow from 1. You can have one without the other.

Or even if such a policy was in place, you may get lucky with 2 and find an absolute gem of a manager who achieves things way beyond the expected, even if he was recruited from Morrison's rather than Harrod's.

I see now your post (as mistakenly assumed by some) is less of a defence of RM and more of an attack on BK.

Have at it, I say. But in presenting the case as you do, rather than helping us see the woods and the trees as you repeatedly claim, you hide them further beneath the rising muddied waters of a flooded river.

As I said earlier, your basic premises and thought process on this matter are flawed IMO.

You're correct in stating there are two points. How you wish to address them is entirely up to you. The fact remains that Everton haven't won anything in 21 years. We all have our views on that.

And that nothing in the record of Roberto Martinez suggests he was a serious appointment if you wished to obtain the target of reaching the Champions League. So at best it was a leap of faith to hire him.

What is in his repertoire, is an FA Cup win. Something we are presently two matches away from. Yet, 12th in the league and nowhere near a top four place. Draw your own conclusions at the coincidence of that.

What Leicester have achieved this season is remarkable, brilliant. But is it a one off? You can guarantee that next season the likes of Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea, will do all they can to prove it is the exception to the rule. So before we hail Ranieri as the next Clough, let's see how the fare in 2016-17.

Patrick @ 119.

I believe we should hold the inquest during the summer. Who knows what Moshiri might bring to the table. In the meantime, back the manager and the team. We haven't won a thing in 20-odd years, it's time to unite, even if that is unpalatable to some.

Evertonians at the ground at least, were as one in their support for the team during the entirety of the Chelsea home match as they always have been for important matches.

At the moment, RM has done nothing that DM hadn't managed – albeit in a shorter time-scale. He'll have to triumph at Wembley twice in six weeks and funnily enough the semi-final is the game I'm more confident about.

Watford or Palace in the final is far more concerning because either of those would be second-favourites and we rarely react well when expected to win.

It just looks like you are jumping around desperately trying to make some point or another. Genuinely don't know what key point you are trying to make.

You may not like BK but he was good to his word and found us a billionaire, no mean feat in the context of a mass asset dilution (reference China, oil and other commodities) in global markets. BK has certainly pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Moshiri.

Moyes managed for over a decade, as in his words, 40 point target, every year. Talk about lowering expectations. Yet I can't remember before the Man Utd semi, or Liverpool one for that matter, polls screaming sack him. All I'm saying is, why place the same yardstick against Martinez when we didn't, during the unremarkable decade reign of our former manager. Bill Kenwright certainly doesn't.

Clive 127,

That's always been my opinion mate. And his record over the last two seasons is starting to confirm it as fact. Additionally, as I've stated before, he is a cup manager, hence two semi-finals.

Andy 128,

I've stated time and time again, what my point is. But I'll give you an analogy.

Say you work a minimum pay job at Wal-Mart, Aldi's whatever. Do you go to your manager and have a fit because of your pay? Of course you don't. He has nothing to do with it. He's just carrying out instructions from the top. Your wage is determined, managed by some faceless accountant you'll never meet. Who in turns answers the owners, directors.

Martinez is simply carrying out his MO. To what he believes is the best of his ability. And currently, to the boards expectations. If you wanna argue with that, fine. Ask yourself why he hasn't been fired already?

Look at the polls. The fans obviously want it, even though we are on the verge of a semi-final. You tell me, why they are not listening?

Jack Mason ... Martin Mason ...

Is this the real or fictional brother the latter has recently alluded to?

Anybody else starting to see a similarity in posting style à la Martin Mason's predilection for offering a plausible, yet questionable, position, then playing a slight of hand in subsequent replies when his original post is challenged and undermined...?

Because I am ...

A rose by any other name, 'n all that ...

I agree, Roberto is a cup manager, that was evident when they beat us 3-0 with Wigan.

I cannot blame BK now, at this present time; however, if the board continue to let the Wiganisation of our team continue, they will take the blame next season in lost revenue from TV and Premier League places, not forgetting the fact that they are letting the fans down, 4 wins for 300-odd quid for a season ticket is not good value.

My position on this and it doesn't matter how many times you try and repeat it. Is you can't explain why Martinez is still in a job. I can.

You want to sack a manager who has a very good chance of lifting silverware this season. For the first time in decades on the basis, of what exactly? Tell me who, which manager has been under that pressure? Or delivered it.

In your argument, every manager since Royle should have been fired for underachievement. And I can definitely see the merit of that. But unfortunately it is not reality.

The reality is, Bill Kenwright thinks we have a fantastic manager, irrespective of the opinions of supporters. Or polls conducted. Have a go at me all you want but until you offer an alternative view, my explanation looks far more plausible, unpalatable as it may appear.

Was Vitor Periera, not available and interviewed for the job? There was other options too. Many posters offering them on this very site.

Roberto must have been the cheapest gamble at the time. The mistake was made after the first year, giving Martinez a massive contract extension.

I have a brother, his name is Chris and, like me, he's been watching Everton since the late 50's. He is nothing at all like me and the last place that he would post views would be here. I'll leave you to think about why that should be so.

My recommendation to you is stick to posting something you know about. Why don't you just answer the points Jack raises rather than idiotically try to link to me and my very real brother neither of whom are related to Jack.

The reality was Martinez was a proven pup and there were much better candidates that we didn't even look at. We had time and we didn't take it, we are now repenting at leisure.

We aren't in trouble and we can sack Martinez now and look for a new manager to start next season. The disgusting fact is that RM is safe and the worst is yet to come.

Why hasn't he been sacked yet? Well for no doubt many months, BK has been trying to persuade Moshiri to buy in. I'm quite sure the last thing BK would have wished to do during such delicate negotiations would be to rock the boat by sacking Martinez and appointing a new manager. Leave it to Moshiri to get his man in and not have to deal with a newly appointed manager which may not have been to Moshiri's liking. That's pretty obvious isn't it?

Not once have I EVER called for RM to be sacked. Not once have I stated as you attribute to me that "every manager since Royle should have been fired for underachievement."

On the contrary, very recently I have stated in terms much clearer than your own ambiguous position that I see no evidence RM WILL be sacked soon. I have also stated on these pages winning the Cup could be enough to see him retained into next season.

I can understand the 'justification' in that, as well as believing myself he should be judged more on his and the team's performance over the 10 months of the season and not only on half a dozen games that may land us our first silverware in 21 years.

It is my opinion that the assessment of RM's performance in the past 18 months would not be an overwhelmingly favourable one, even with a trophy to show.

Picking up on another claim you make - "you can't explain why Martinez is still in a job. I can" - let me say 2 things.

I haven't explained because I wasn't asked to. And furthermore, to consider posters are required to (as you now seemingly are) "explain why RM is still in a job" is not implicit in any of your posts until now.

Having been challenged on that point I will offer you a very plausible answer why RM is still in the job. It's a combination of factors.

Quite clearly, BK has been battling with illness in recent months and as a result has been more low profile and less vocal than he otherwise might.

Equally clearly, he has been negotiating behind the scenes for some months to land Moshri as a heavyweight investor to the club.

Rather than jeopardize that process by sacking the manager, BK and the board held off to achieve the greater aim.

To that we can add whilst the league results have continued to disappoint, the timing of the cup runs over the course of the season (we have played at least one cup tie every month apart from November) have definitely bought RM time he wouldn't have been afforded at many other clubs.

Since Moshri came on board we have progressed to the semi-final of the Cup and whilst many canvas for it, I do not think it is timely or wise at this stage of the season to create further turmoil by removing RM at this juncture.

This is not a defence of RM. This is simply being pragmatic. You could not guarantee getting in your prime target replacement at the business end of the season when he is (possibly) engaged with important end-of-season games himself.

It makes good sense to wait until the close season to make a definitive decision on the manager's position.

Now to me, the above multiple situations make for a far more plausible explanation as to why RM is still in the job rather than your own limited, fanciful and singular claim.

It also torpedoes your closing claim that "until you offer an alternative view, my explanation looks far more plausible, unpalatable as it may appear."

I suggest you read any number of posts in this thread back again. You have been given a number of alternative views.

Your view Jack is far from watertight and certainly not the only 'plausible' one.

You see, Andy, you claim I'm the one making assertions. And then you go on to make a whole lot of assertions yourself.

Unless any one is prepared to post it up here, none of us know, yet, what Moshiri's intentions are. He may be fine with Martinez and go on and back him. Who knows? We know one thing. Kenwright hired him, and continues to back him. That, like it or not, is a fact.

My apologies, Jay, if I confused you with another. I'm struggling to see just where you disagree with me here though. Besides your own view of the machinations behind the scenes at Goodison, based on supposition – the very thing you accuse me of.

You have no idea, neither do I, of Moshiri's influence at the club. This stage-managed notion you have, seems plausible enough. What my suggestion is, and has been all along, is that, Martinez was hired for a purpose. And according to Bill Kenwright, that purpose is being met. I really don't believe that is as spectacular a claim as you are trying to make out.

Fingers in ears, 'wurdledurdlewurdle..'

An example?

Ok one response to your OP begins 'There's actually nothing I agree with in this article.'

Nothing, not even your..

"First season: record Premier League points total, 5th place finish. Second season: league position, disappointing but a decent run in the Europa League. This season, two semi-finals and a damn good chance of going all the way. But looks like from the league standpoint, another season to forget"

Disagreeing with this is saying 'I disagree that what happened..er..happened.'

And what this indicates (to me) is that for many, it's a case of no argument or no part of any argument, other than the one I'm 100% hitched to, will be entertained - none of it!

My guess is you'd have got loads less grief had you posted 'His first season was shit, his second season was shit, this season is shit. His house is shit, his car is shit, his dog is shit, he should change his name to Roberto Shit and his autobiography should be titled '50 Shades Of Shit.'