Good job they weren't around for Kendall Mk 1 or we would never have won the European Cup-Winners Cup, a few league titles, and a number of visits to Wembley.

Who are these children filling the forum calling for Koeman to be fired?

Many of us are criticizing him, for the long run of poor results, for the poor football, for the persistence with two defensive midfielders and single isolated striker, even when at home against the team at the bottom of the league.

Many of us are saying it's ridiculous to say you can only judge after two bloody years. And many of us are saying that it's garbage to say that he needs to be able to clear out the team and have another 3 transfer windows before we can judge him.

However, I have yet to see this cry of Koeman out on this site, but I do see plenty of people like you claiming that this is happening, and that's been going on for weeks now.

This then begs the question as to what system the present personnel can master? It is still frustrating watching Everton as they always start slow and do not respond until a goal down.

I have hope that Koeman will sort it but as time and games move on the one thing obvious to me is the outcome will mean that most of the present team players will be moved on over the next year to be replaced with players who can implement the manager's style of play.

We must keep the faith and hope and believe it will come good, but not as quick as we all hoped.

Ken, may I offer this topic to be tossed around in your Room of Nonsense:

I think we the fans are partly to blame for our current mediocre situation and does our glorious history encourage a willingness on our part to forgive second-rate performances? In that, I include board and staff as well as players.

In this brave new world, is it time to discard our dreams of long-gone days or heaven forbid are they all we have to cling to.

Many years ago, my first TW post was met with howls of complaint and abuse. The cause of that anger was a few words of praise for our near neighbours. "Never ever mention that shower of shite" was the general response. Even now in many cases the same mindset uncritically swallows whatever the club serves up.

This season, we have seen a bunch over paid actors on both sides of the touchline try yet fail to explain why they are absolute crap. It is time to take the blinkers off and take stock of what is wrong with our set-up and – dare I say – sneak a peek at our neighbours.

Whatever Klippetty Klopp does at Melwood must be vastly different to Koeman at Finch Farm... and maybe we can learn something.

Ken, it would be interesting to know where your seat is because your report would have echoed mine.

Even before I read the report, I was anticipating to say that there is lack of movement from everyone in the team. I would usually pick on Lukaku but on Saturday it felt most of the players were just standing around.

I felt sorry for Ross. As Ken suggests, when he got the ball, turned, looked up to see what he could do with the ball, his best option was often backwards.

Re finding a player like Barry who can create as well as defend leads me to Gibson. In my opinion he is a decent midfielder, can certainly pick out a pass and generally a team-mate. If only he could stay fit. However, if no one is prepared to run or try to create space for themselves, even Pirlo in his pomp would be limited in this Everton team.

Which brings me round to changing the team. For all his goals, I still don't believe Romelu offers enough. For me, he doesn't offer the mobility up front that we need. It may be the system we play but we have had 2 different managers using Romelu and we either don't play to his strengths or he chooses not to play in the way he is asked to.

Sounds a bit unfair on Rom, but I would drop him for a few matches and see if the team can create things without him. Might encourage him to think about what he offers the team.

I don't agree with those who say that without his goals we would have been relegated last season or even this as we no-one else seems to score on a regular basis Statistically, then possibly... but I am a firm believer in finding a method of play which allows goals to be spread around the team. Is the focus too much on finding Romelu?

Having said that, I can't offer up a replacement!!!

Lastly re the atmosphere. Being so close to the Swansea fans, I too heard their references to the ground being a library and the shhssing(!). Funny stuff from them. But, as Ken indicates, it seems to be like this at Goodison. If the team are entertaining the fans, the fans certainly get behind the team and there is no better place to be than at Goodison when the ground is rocking. Just a shame that Everton fans generally have to wait to be entertained before getting truly vocal.

As mentioned earlier, I don't get to see many games at Goodison, so I hope I don't offend the supporters who go every week...

He may need to buy the bread and butter before any jam.

I agree with you regarding Barkley, he along with Idrissa were our best players but the majority of players need to look at themselves more closely.

Forward movement was generally poor, if Lukaku had seen the ball as much as Jags and Williams then I would have been a lot happier.

I thought after the hammering we received from Chelsea, the players would have been up for the game from the start but they didn't put much effort into it until after the half-time team talk. If these team talks are so good, why aren't they given it before the start of the game?

I have read a report by Unsworth stating that his team where at it from start to finish – when did that last happen for the first team?

I can't wait for the transfer window, off-load the players who aren't capable of 90 minutes and bring quality players in that can perform.

One more point: I think we should be giving our Under-23s a few games; they are full of confidence and it would be a nice reward for their efforts.

Koeman doesn't trust younger players, for whatever reason. So get used to seeing dross like McCarthy, Cleverley, Mirallas, Lennon et al until at least the January window, if not for the rest of the season.

There is a collective malaise at the moment and I do think you are right, Ken, that the players are not getting what the manager wants from them. In truth we should have won this game comfortably.

How we did not score from three gilt edged chances in the first half is a mystery and our set plays are consistently rubbish. Every time Baines took a corner it did not clear the first man (usually Fer) and every time Barkley took a corner, the keeper caught it. It is boring to watch.

We don't quicken up the game when we can and we aren't aggressive enough. Also senior players fail to perform and then get selected again and again.

My partner said to me though, of the two players who came in this week, did either of them look as if they were playing for the shirt? McCarthy and Lennon were anonymous in a dismal first half and they look unhappy on the pitch.

Clearly Koeman is not interested in blooding youngsters. Have we made any progress since Moyes's tenure?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said we don't seem to play as a team.

Replacing Barry will indeed be hard. I know he's slow and whatever, but he's the best we have in midfield.

The trouble is we don't have a proper midfield system – or Midfield players any more.

We have Gana and Barry – but do we really need two?

We have McCarthy and Cleverley – but do we really need (these) two?

We have Gibson and Besic – one genuine long-term sick note and one potential sick note in waiting.

We have Barkley, who has all the instinctive skill of a Bowles, Marsh, etc but, up to now, none of the 'good devilment' that made them stand out.

We have Buck-she wingers, who have ended up being neither effective wingers nor midfielders.

So what is a Midfielder? Well, he's a jack of many trades and but not, in our case, master of most.

Box to box? Pretty essential. Tackling? He doesn't have to be Stuart Pierce or Chopper Harris, but has to put a leg in without doing his knee in. See and give a forward pass. Chip in with half-a-dozen League goals. Sheedy-like free kicks is a bonus. Be mentally switched on... Now how much of that apply to our lot?

There must be proper all round(ish) midfielders about... I know we're not going to get Kendall, Ball or Harvey. But we need some Proper footballers, playing in a proper midfield, to a proper system.

We are stagnant up front with him in the team and he does not help Barkley at all. His attitude stinks and I can't wait for him to leave the club. Hopefully we can bring in someone who will get goals and work hard for the team. Rooney would be a great start.

I agree with your bit about Barry but it doesn't say much for the rest if – at 35 and well past his peak – he is the best of our midfield.

As it is, we can only look forward to the next window and hope relief is at hand. Just a pity that the table topping U23s are considered not up to it .

After the Chelsea result, I wasn't surprised we struggled here.

It seems increasingly clear that there are some players that he isn't going to get too much out of in the current squad.

Getting to Christmas and we don't seem to have gotten much from Cleverley, Gibson, Kone, Lennon, Deulofeu, or Valencia.

I thought Barkley was a mixture of very good and poor, highlighted by the brilliant way he collected the ball from Bolasie's hard-hit pass and then meekly put it wide. He still goes missing and fails to put tackles in, and while agreeing that the piss-poor static play of his fellow forward play doesn't help him one bit, his own lack of movement is equally poor.

Mr Koeman has a lot of work on his hands to mould these players into a decent team. With time, he can do it... but a few of these players will be left behind and moved on.

If you look at the top 5 they have spent hundreds of millions on the squads they have.

Koeman said it would take time and our squad has also aged considerably in the last 2 years. Nobody is happy with current performances or results but FFS give the man some time to make the necessary changes.

We need to get behind the manager and the team and stop all this nonsense about him not being the right manager etc etc. Mostly perpetrated by posters who haven't got a clue about what's going on.

I get pissed off with being told I'm a child for wanting more from Koeman and historic links with Kendall, and the like, being used as a barometer of our current situation and to shut me down.

Just my opinion, of course, but too many of us live in the past, we've won nothing in years and, with every passing season, people come on here and tell us to be patient or shout us down for daring to want success now.

I won't be silenced: Koeman must do better... Everton must do better and I will be at St Mary's on Sunday demanding it!

We have won only 1 out of the last 8 matches. I'll say that again, 1 win in 8, which includes losing to Norwich in the League Cupup, getting beat 5-0 by Chelsea, losing to Bournemouth and Burnley. If you don't think that is a long run of poor results, then I can't help you. We were just held at home by he team at the bottom of the table, where we needed a goal in the final minutes to rescue a point.

We're going into the busiest time of the season and we are not improving. We are going backward. I assume you were one of those that kept saying at the start of the season, "We're second in the table"... "We're third in the table"... "We're in the top four". Now it's "We're joint 6th" (we're not, we're 7th). So, as we continue to fail to win matches, and the games begin coming thick and fast, if we drop down to 10th, will you be telling all of us who apparently have no idea what's going on, "We're in the top 10, give him time"?

Baines doesn't wrap his foot round the ball like he used to, while Coleman dinks them in, which makes them very hard to score from. As for Lennon, Deulofeu, Mirallas and Bolassie, their crosses are like their play in general. You never know what you are going to get.

Barkley and Lukaku can't play in the same team. They are both talented, but they have the same weaknesses – they are not sharp, and they have a lazy streak. They would both benefit from having a whippet to play off.

All of this leads to a lack of quality where it matters most – in the final third.

A professional footballer who cannot cross a decent 40-yard free kick should be taken behind the stands and he himself given a damn good kicking.

He is one of the few I would like to see stay on for next season, the others being Gueye, Barkley, Coleman and errr, maybe Bolasie but I'm not sure yet...

And you are right that logic dictates that with our still limited resources we can hardly expect to trouble the Sky Six. The next few weeks are likely to show how limited is our talent as the manager sets out his team to contain those above us.

However, what most of us mere mortals can't fathom is how this super-star player cum very average manager is going about his job. He inherited a veritable mess and seems intent on persevering with it. Roberto would have got dog's abuse for what Everton are currently dishing up but the new man 'must be given time'. Just like the last bloke, then.

Agreed!

This very average manager who somehow got Southampton their highest league finish, after having seen the heart ripped out of the squad when Potchettino left. A team that played some great football under his management.

Huh, what do you know? Very little by the looks of it Phil!!

With a tough set of games coming up before Christmas, on present form, we could be set to drop a few places.

Have we any players who can step up to the mark and take a game by the scruff of the neck? Doubtful I think. Oh for a Peter Reid or someone of that ilk, eh.

I thought we had a gut full of the last two.

a) He persistently plays an ageing 'captain' even when everyone is feeling sorry for how his game has dropped; we want to remember him as a good player, but not one other Premier League manager would risk him in the back 4 this season, and playing him is only going to diminish the good memories.

b) The players all amble about the pitch, not moving away from markers when we attack, and nowhere near the opposition when they attack; our midfield and attackers may well have been coached by Anthony Gormley. There is NO movement at all, except from the player in possession, who finds he has no-one to pass to.

And c) Most managers/coaches assess their players in training, finding the best penalty takers, throw-in specialists and corner takers: if Koeman hasn't sussed out that Barkley is shite at taking corners, and we need to find a decent free kick taker, then I'm baffled as to what he does with them all week. 5 months on and they don't look any fitter or tactically better than last season, but he still picks up his obscene salary, while we all suffer.

He was fired and it was long overdue. Although I still would have kept him on for the Director of US soccer development as he had some good ideas for the big picture for US soccer, but as a coach, he was tactically inept. Plus, five years is about the cycle for an international team manager as they tend to get stuck in a certain way and to ride the same players at the expense of new players coming in (sounds like Koeman a little).

I have never been a patient soul especially in business and if you remember I was totally opposed to Martinez from the off and was pushing the case hard for him to be sacked just under 2 years ago.

However, football is different and here is where I see the difference: Martinez inherited the 3rd best defence in the country, a number of maturing young players, bombproof team spirit and had more to spend in one season than Moyes had in 10 years.

For me, he was totally out of his depth at this level as his pedigree had indicated.

Koeman by comparison has a pretty good pedigree especially in the Premier League but has inherited a pile of mush. An aging squad with fragile confidence, shattered team spirit and the best players now too old while other clubs have strengthened in the last 2 years.

He has only managed 12 league games and while recent results have not been great they are far from disastrous and the season can still be rescued.

I think it is fickle and far too premature to start questioning the manager at this point as we do not know his plans for the longer term which may well involve a totally different set of players which is why maybe some players cant be arsed right now.

NO ONE CAN NOR SHOULD BUILD ON SAND and short term supporter overreaction to a frustrating run of games may well ruin the long term.

I agree we could do with a Kay or Ball or Reid. But to really shake things up at the moment I would love a Tommy Gravesen in his pomp marauding around the pitch with enthusiasm that rubs off on the rest.

I based my 'very average manager' comment on his entire career in the job rather than his short time at Southampton. 'Mercurial' is the kindest thing I've read about it!

Or you wouldn't say needing a last-minute equaliser at home to the 2nd worst side in the league at start of play was disastrous? Well I certainly would... and they're our two most recent results.

I've been watching football long enough to know how quickly it can turn around. But can you honestly see us winning another game quickly... because I can't. The way that team is set up, I can see a couple more results like the Chelsea one coming.

It shouldn't need a great manager to impose these qualities on his team but we are lacking in all of them.

Our wide players are not midfielders in the way that Steven and Sheedy were but neither are they performing to a decent standard as wingers. This is where we really fall down as a team – Bolasie is okay but to me we are playing with 10 men as the other wide player whoever he is does not contribute.

Energy is required to play Ron's style and the player best suited to provide this along with Gana is Tom Davies.

I can't see us having the cash to completely revamp the team so for heavens sake give a couple of the younger players a chance rather than buy a load of ordinary foreigners who won't care about the club.

I agree with you about the Chelsea game and about Swansea but to lay it at a manager who has been here just a few months is premature IMO. We have had tonkings before under Moyes and Multiple times under Martinez.

The league is a marathon not a sprint and although we can fault the manger on certain issues we have to give him time to get it right.

He was not around to witness the dross we suffered under Martinez and I'm sure he didn't realize how bad we had become as a club but there is no instant fix. I always saw this season as an experimental one but one where we would nevertheless improve on Martinez.

We have 3 tough games coming up so the team and manager need our support, difficult though that may be following the last 2 seasons.

Now this may or may not be the case but it certainly makes you think because performances have dipped the last few games What does anyone else think of that? That's why I'm fearful of the next month and the games coming up.

However, I think the main problem is the transition from cavalier football to disciplined football which is 180 degrees from what Martinez had them doing.

Quite simply, the fella doesn't inspire the players. He doesn't want to be here really – he's in it for the money. Nothing he has done has made me think otherwise.

At least Koeman has the balls to follow this through – good riddance to the lot of them. Peter, if the players are not inspired by Koeman, a hard-working disciplinarian – who was a better player than any them will ever be – then another reason to wave goodbye.

Is there something going on behind the scenes, are they being over-trained, is Koeman genuinely clueless, are the players just poor?

Uninspiring, dull and unsuccessful. Must improve.

It really is inexplicable how many poor performances we have witnessed in the last 30 months or so. It doesn't seem to matter which system we adopt or which different players are chosen, the net result is often the same, listless, lacking in the basic skills and what seems to me at any rate a lack of heart and courage.

It can't be solely down to the manager or his tactics, so it has to be something deeper. I suspect that during Moyes's tenure, due to the lack of financial wriggle room, most of the first team squad would, give or take a few of the inexperienced players, be on similar wages.

I get the feeling that Martinez opened the door for some of his new recruits to receive greater remuneration than some of the longer serving players and that has upset the natural balance of things – however, no player former or current has expressed anything other than harmony and good spirit within the camp, but that team spirit very rarely rears its head on a match-day.

It's a puzzle and one that has to be solved soon or we could end up in the same boat as Villa.

Another cheap shot at the Goodison faithful? I really tire of the recurring theme of how fans are supposed to behave, when it's the players who are living the life of film-stars and it's the fans who pay for that privilege, even if it's not quite as important to the club due to TV revenue.

I gave up alcohol for a few months in order to afford my season ticket and now the buggers on the park are driving me to drink.

They are not trying to play badly. Yes, it is frustrating, and I have found myself with head in hands, screaming FFS – and that's just watching TV. Sadly I am reduced, by ill health to the role of armchair fan, but I was a season ticket holder during the reign of Gordon Lee, so believe me, I know all about how frustrating our blues can be.

But hey ho, we will continue to berate our team and we will continue to love them, in equal measure Let's hope they can give us all some thing to sing about.
COYMB

Hinchcliffe mentioned in commentary, and I agreed, that for the last 10 minutes or so we seemed to have a "tactic" of playing as many forwards as possible with no particular game-plan. Players getting in each others' way etc.

Did anyone at the game agree with this?