Koeman: We need time but title challenge has to be long-term goal

Monday 14 November 2016  118 Comments  [Jump to last]

Ronald Koeman has reiterated that qualifying for Europe is his target for Everton this season but stressed that challenging again for top domestic honours has to be the club's longer-term goal.

The good start made under the Dutchman in which the Blues ascended as high as second place in the early Premier League table had some observers wondering if the Koeman would be able to achieve more than a sixth-place finish in his first year at the club, but recent results have dampened those early flights of fancy.

“The ambition this season will be challenging for European football,” Koeman told ESPN FC. “We have introduced some new players last summer and it takes time to find the right balance in the team and to find consistency, but I feel it is not far away.

“If we are competing for a place in the Europa League in my first season here, then that would be a good achievement. I think this is possible, but we can see a lot of teams with the same ambition as us in the Premier League, so it will not be easy.”

Given the size of the club, Koeman says that becoming viable contenders for the Premier League title and winning silverware again must be the next step, just as neighbours Liverpool now appear to be in a position to attempt now that Jürgen Klopp has had time to embed his methods at Anfield.

The former Southampton boss agrees that this year's title race is going to be very competitive and while it hasn't gone down well with some Evertonians, he says he has been “impressed” with Liverpool so far and believes that the arch enemy from across Stanley Park have what it takes to be champions this season.

Encouragingly, however, for those who doubt he will stick around long enough to make it happen, Koeman spoke of in terms of managers being afforded time and patience to build a team capable of becoming a force in England.

“It is a long time since Everton were winning trophies and challenging for the title in England, but that is what we want to do,” he explained.

“This is a very big club and the aim is to be in the top positions again, challenging for the important places in the Premier League.

“It takes time when you come to a club to get everything you want in place, but I understand that in this game now, you do not always have the time. Results are very important and while we say there should be more patience, that is just not how this game works now.

“Long-term projects are no longer possible if you do not have success quickly and even though most supporters appreciate a manager should have some time, others can put pressure on the owners and decision makers at clubs who hire and sack managers.”

 

Reader Comments (118)

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Brian Harrison
1 Posted 14/11/2016 at 16:51:10
While I cant disagree with Koeman regarding Liverpool winning the league, do I really want my manager to be saying this?

Seems like the press won't be short of quotes when Koeman is around. Whether it's Lukaku will have wasted his career if he stays at Everton, or Liverpool look very strong... or just discussing the possibility of signing Rooney or Depay.

I see Deulofeu was quoted after scoring his 16th goal in 31 games for Spain's under 21 team. That he liked playing for Spain as he was amongst people he liked.

Paul Kossoff
2 Posted 14/11/2016 at 17:01:05
I'm disliking Koeman more each day. I didn't want him in the first place, the team seems no better than last season and every time he opens his mouth he smells like the old Dutch oven.

Now he's bigging up the Red Shite to win the Premier League... what next? The press will ask him who's favourite to go down and he'll say 'Oh Everton will be there abouts.'

Sorry but I would rather have Unsworth and Sheedy.

Roger Helm
3 Posted 14/11/2016 at 18:07:38
Well, he's Dutch, so he says what he thinks and if you don't like it then that's your problem.

I prefer that to the bullshit we got from the last boss.

Jack Convery
4 Posted 14/11/2016 at 18:26:42
His Lukaku quotes were upsetting but the LFC thing is just being realistic, as much as I hate to admit it. He's much better than Martinez, who wouldn't be?

We are in the mix for the Europa League places and it would be some achievement to get us there in his first season given how poor the squad was he inherited.
Liam Reilly
5 Posted 14/11/2016 at 18:39:30
Like it or not, Kloop has PLiverpool playing well and scoring lots of goals and they are in the mix. To ignore that or to say anything to the contrary is just wearing blue-tinted spectacles.

At least he says that the club should be challenging but he needs time to address the current issues.

I'd say let's give him some.

Kunal Desai
6 Posted 14/11/2016 at 18:43:43
What is wrong with our fans, fucking have a moan and whinge at everything? Getting seriously tedious. Give this man a break, for crying out loud.

Koeman has been at the club for a couple of months! The last manager overstayed by one season and the man before him overstayed by six seasons at least. Just get behind the man.

Patrick Murphy
7 Posted 14/11/2016 at 18:45:37
If our lot aren't motivated for the game at Goodison Park in mid December they will prove to be a right shower.

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to that match earlier this year, the reaction of Klopp and Company has left a sour taste in my mouth ever since – I hope our players feel the same way.

Mike Berry
8 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:09:58
I like the way Ron says it as it is. If you cant take the facts... then tough!
Mike Gaynes
9 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:19:55
Koeman said this was an 18-month project, didn't he? He's had less than five.

He's had only one partial transfer window, in which he delivered four new starters -- Williams, Stekelenburg, Gueye and Bolasie.

Let's see what this team looks like a year from now after he's had a January window and a full summer to bring in the talent he wants.

Paul Conway
10 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:26:19
Like it or not, he is the best thing that has happened to us Manager wise, since the late and great Howard Kendal. We don't have to believe he loves Everton. He is doing a job.

I am sure if there was a transfer window every month, he would be in there trying to purge our team of the likes of Barkley, Deulofeu, Mirallas , etc. Players who many Evertonians put their faith in and are still willing to do so.

Yet, they criticise a man who has already shown he has enough of what it takes to transform a mediocre team into top six challengers.

Danny Broderick
11 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:30:23
Some people might not be able to take his honesty, but he has given an honest appraisal here. We will finish somewhere between 6th and 10th in all likelihood. And Liverpool are among the favourites for the league currently.

I think we have to get used to having an A list manager. When Koeman talks, it is reported all around the world. Some reporters will be mischievous and will try to twist his comments.

As much as I like Unsy, Sheedy etc, they would be small time appointments on a worldwide scale. They might say the right things locally, but no-one would be even interviewing them on an international week.

Koeman is big news. His words will be twisted now and again, but I can handle the odd mis-quote if he gets things right on the pitch.

Kim Vivian
12 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:34:08
I think Koeman has got potential if he can stick with it for the long haul. It ain't gonna happen overnight and I do actually feel more optimistic about the tone of these comments to some recent ones. At least it sounds like he may see a longer-term residency here.

The thought of a couple of years and then 'onwards and upwards' is depressing tbh. If that's the case then we need someone else who does have ambition with EFC.

Mark Morrissey
13 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:36:40
For those who have been slagging him saying he never refers to the collective "we", he has now said it. Can you all get behind the man and support him.

Whether you like it or not he is our manager. He wears the club crest. He is employed by Everton Football Club. He wants to do well. He is not a loser.

Any chance that we can relax the amount of negativity. Can we try and support him and for all the individual player haters, just give that particular player until the January window.

We might just get rid of the particular player you like to continually rebuke and then you can be happy. I think the yanks have a saying for what I'm trying to say... it's "enough already".

Dermot Byrne
14 Posted 14/11/2016 at 19:39:54
You should never say the RS should win anything. Why? Because we have had for years a seasonal fantasy to ultimately disappoint us. We want our managers to join our fantasy and never give us the reality such as it takes time, even with a few quid. Let's bleat on about history like some UKIP lover of the old Empire.

We even have folk here saying the derby is the most important game. If ever that gives them status.

This takeover regardless of manager is the long game lads. We may get some respect in 4 years or so but until then it will be gradual rebuilding of decades of being exactly what we have been – punching above our weight.

So get some reality. This dream we all have, such as winning foremost and also in an iconic stadium, it will take time and we will have shit times on the way.

And, as a man who started supporting the Blues in 1960 (my birth), however many years we claim to have suffered (tiresome trend on TW lately), it will take time.

I know we need to express frustration and disappointment. It is in many ways what TW is for.

But soon after someone is a gimp, Dutch money grabbers, lazy striker (me that), the reality and long game of hope is still there. To me, I see a yellow brick road that will get there!

Brian Harrison
15 Posted 14/11/2016 at 20:39:38
I have no problem with Koeman being honest, and he is spot on about Liverpool. They have an excellent and charismatic manager who exudes confidence, and they are playing an exciting brand of football.

He has also, without saying anything to the press, sidelined both Sturridge and Mignolet to the bench without alienating either of them. A very clever man and someone who is a joy to listen too, as well as doing it all with a smile on his face. Although I imagine the players wouldn't take any liberties with him, and they know whose boss.

So Koeman, if we are being honest, I would like to see you emulate Klopp and I am not forgetting in his first season he failed to get Liverpool into a Europa League spot. You're the man I wanted to manage us and I hope that my faith in you is not misplaced.

Ed Fitzgerald
16 Posted 14/11/2016 at 20:47:00
Fuck me... it's like a kopite love-in on here. Honest, Ron, do me a favour, will you? He blames everyone for errors bar himself.

Joe O'Brien
17 Posted 14/11/2016 at 20:49:22
That's more like it. Some positive goals. Koeman needs time to build his team – at least 3 windows. We needed a few more players in the last window but Walsh came on board very late.

I would hope to be challenging for the title in 4 years. After a long barren period for our team, I have the patience to wait a bit longer.

As regards him saying the Red Shite are contenders, I couldn't care less. He was probably asked a direct question and answered it. If anything, it puts more pressure on them, it would actually spur them on more if he said he didn't rate them. They won't win it anyway, so fuck them

Fran Mitchell
18 Posted 14/11/2016 at 20:59:39
The key issue here is that Koeman is saying he wants to win things with Everton, and that Everton should be challenging for the Premier League title.

Then, when asked about Liverpool, who currently sit top, he says very diplomatically 'you can never predict anything, but of course they are in with a chance and they are playing well' ... what do you expect him to respond?

Patrick Murphy
19 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:04:53
Prizes aren't handed out in November, December or January so spare me the eulogising over any team, particularly when they reside in our neck of the woods and if they don't wear blue shirts.

Let's see how it all goes game by game, goal by goal and then, if we want to hand out brick-bats or garlands of flowers in May, so be it.

Too often we are far too quick to denigrate our own team and put our neighbours on a pedestal – screw them! Why? Because they ain't Everton.

Don Alexander
20 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:11:05
I've said plenty on other threads to try to balance the invective recently ranged against Koeman and I'm glad some are joining in with me.

That said, and I know it goes against every blue grain in all of us, it really bothers me that we load so much anticipation on the derby match. It seems to me that, with the exception of those signed in summer, the entire squad, apart from maybe four or five of them, have zero interest in putting in the extra against Liverpool or anyone else they deem too hard.

I also think they now know they're seen in that way by Koeman too and that their Everton goose is cooked.

Any time any of the various spineless posers want to prove me wrong by coming off the pitch with way less than a yearly hammering or three off the top clubs, I'll be delighted... but I'm not holding my breath anymore in 2016.

David Booth
22 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:15:00
No difference to things under Martinez. Not a sign that we have a new manager in place when you watch how we play.

Time he kept his Dutch gob shut in the media for a while and instead focussed on talking to our players. Then, when there's some evidence of why he earns so much money, we might give some credence to his inappropriate utterances?

And all this bullshit about the Europa League: check out his Southampton team selection when they got in under his stewardship. He couldn't get them out again fast enough.

I know it's only a few months into his reign, but he's not making me feel enthused, optimistic, confident or proud yet. A BIG win is an absolute priority against Swansea - who worryingly are due their first win under Bradley. Déjàanyone?

Really delighted we got him, but not at all convinced so far.

Mick Davies
23 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:15:53
Here's the latest installment from the font of Dutch footballing knowledge:

“It's still too early to say who will be the favourites, but I have been impressed by Liverpool so far,” Koeman said.

“Maybe that is not what you might expect the Everton manager to say, but they have been playing some very good football and deserve to be at the top. They have goals in their team and this is what all successful sides need.

“Of course they can be champions this season, they have a good chance, but they are not the only contenders.”

In the Echo this time, just so our red friends have more mud to sling.

Danny Broderick
24 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:22:13
Mick (23),

I don't see anything wrong in what he said.

Brian Harrison
25 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:30:41
I would hope that someone has a quiet word with Koeman. Yes, it's all well and good being honest but, if you are alienating half the fan base with your comments, why say it?

Look, for what it's worth, I think Koeman will do a very good job here but just think about your answers and what effect it will have on your players and fans alike before answering.

Results speak much louder than words; go on a run of 5 or 6 games without a loss and the fans will hopefully forget these last week's comments.

John Graham
26 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:33:33
The truth often hurts, and he is saying it as it is, like it or not.
But he is ambitious and, given time, I am sure he will get it right.
John Daley
27 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:39:31
Not really arsed about what he's been saying about the other lot. Seems everyone is lining up to lavish praise on them at the moment, so I'd rather give the Everton manager making similar noises a miss. However, the one line that did jump out at me was him saying they have goals throughout the side and that's 'something all good sides need'. It's clearly something this current Everton side is sorely lacking. Scarily so if you were to remove Lukaku from the equation for any length of time.

Regardless, Ron's words about having a longer term aim of trying to get the team into a position to challenge for titles are welcome, whether they ultimately prove to be empty or not.

One thing is for sure though, if he's even half serious about having one squinty eye on landing that particular fish, he's going to need both a bigger boat and a more cut-throat crew of his choosing. A repeat of the transfer window just gone (whilst not the outright disaster some claim) isn't going to cut it. It's all well and good the man at the top rolling off the names of players who we tried to sign and how much we tried to spend, but it's nothing but the same old 'we bid for Shearer', 'we came really close to tempting Ravenelli', 'we had Fernandes's word until he revealed himself a right twat' style empty talk until they actually start reeling such targets in.

It's obviously going to take time, plenty of patience and recognition that certain things (contract negotiations, getting transfers over the line, the itchy feet of certain Everton players) are all out of Ronald Koeman's hands.

In the meantime though, following the roasting from Chelsea, he really needs to refocus on the here and now and concentrate on making a better fist of getting more from the current crop of players than he has thus far. Confidence needs to be restored, some sort of playing style other than 'press-punt-PANIC' needs to be implemented and the first real 90 minute performance of the season to go along with three points would be nice as well.


Steavey Buckley
28 Posted 14/11/2016 at 21:52:27
Most Everton fans will settle for the promise of a top 4 finish. Koeman did not make a good start because there were no wholesale changes at the beginning of the season just the same as usual. False dawns and a slide down the table .and a relegation battle by February. In perfect time with Gueye and Bolasie away at the African Nations Cup.
Stephen O'Donnell
29 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:07:12
I, like most of our fans, was made up with Koeman being appointed. But now, with all this Dutch drivel, tweeting show-off pictures and the like, he is just like the other mercenaries. £6 million a year we're paying him, and he will be off soon as Barca or a national team come calling by the drop of a hat.

Unsy, you are one of us who passionately cares about our beloved blues and loyal. I hope you manage us in the near future. We know what EFC means to you. coyb

Nicholas Ryan
30 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:10:35
John Daley [27] ... Can you get some T-shirts printed, with "Press, punt, PANIC" on them?!
Tony Abrahams
31 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:16:13
I think you really overestimate the English Premier League, Steavey.
Pete Edwards
32 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:23:21
I couldn't give a shit personally what that shower over the road do, I'm more interested in what we are doing and believe Koeman is the man to get us back to the top.
Paul Hewitt
33 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:26:36
We complained last season when Martinez talked bollocks after games. Now we complain when Koeman speaks the truth. What do some people want?
Geoff Evans
34 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:47:25
I feel that, for a lot of Evertonians, Mr Koeman's biggest failings are his realism and honesty. Some of his comments may have been uncomfortable to hear for most of us, because they are all true.

To turn an under-achieving club like ours around, you first have to admit we have problems.

The alternative is to get some one in to tell you that everything is the 'P' word and just keep living on past glories that haven't been relevant since the inception of the Premier League.

I'll take Koeman.

Bobby Thomas
35 Posted 14/11/2016 at 22:55:02
John #27 & Nick #30

I will take one of those t-shirts.

Press, Punt PANIC.

Steavey Buckley
37 Posted 14/11/2016 at 23:12:35
Tony: What teams in the Premier League right now could Everton beat comfortably? Then in the coming months, with the same type of Everton squad minus Bolasie and Gueye could Everton still beat with ease?

Bearing in mind, Everton were in the same situation last season, but with worse teams in the Premier League, and managed to go on a losing streak after beating Stoke City away 3-0 after the New Year.

Dan Davies
38 Posted 14/11/2016 at 23:24:42
Yep, I'd say some of Koeman's comments are close to the bone but there you go – a manager that speaks his mind and shoots from the hip.

He might not be everyone's cup of tea but personally I like straight talkers who say what they mean and mean what they say.

Who knows if he's going to be a success or not? One thing with our manager is he doesn't seem sensitive about potentially upsetting people.

Is that a bad thing? Professionally speaking?

David Booth
39 Posted 14/11/2016 at 23:37:32
Dan: "...he doesn't seem sensitive about potentially upsetting people."

That'll just be Evertonians you're referring to then?

Dan Davies
40 Posted 15/11/2016 at 00:27:29
No David, if you take a look at his career, both as a player and manager, I think you will find he's not just picking on us Evertonians at all. Southampton recently springs to mind....
Raymond Fox
41 Posted 15/11/2016 at 00:32:39
Geoff 34, if 'we all told it like it is' in the wider world, there would be trouble every 5 minutes.

Very many things are better left unsaid.

Mick Davies
42 Posted 15/11/2016 at 00:41:58
"He's a manager that speaks his mind" ... yeah, but why does he talk about other clubs so positively, but mentions 'Everton' (not 'us' or 'we') only to try and get our most important player out of the club?

What has he said to the supporters about the debacle at Chelsea? I for one am dubious about a) his commitment and b) his ability.

He's got to do a lot more to prove he deserves to be the manager of our club than leaving it to the Major Shareholder to bale him out, and still he hasn't responded – only to heap praise on our rivals!

I've got too much love for this club to hear a man who's paid an obscene amount of money to get us back to the top, continually ignore us and pay attention to his beloved Barcelona and our red rivals, and not respond.

Derek Thomas
43 Posted 15/11/2016 at 01:06:14
It's Nov ffs 1, 2, 3 and 4th all look good too...so did we in Aug...comeback in May.

Not much he said isn't true... Too many on here channeling their Inner Jack Nicholson/truth handling thing.

tbh, there may be an element of fence mending in there as well.

Face it or not, it's in his own interest's to get this right...an early bail out if it gets too hard is his very poor 2nd choice.

We soon sorted the deeds, or lack of, from the talk of Roberto. Let's see how his deeds shape up and leave the words as the press fodder they are...for now.

How does that song go...the one we sing EVERY week?...'We don't care what the redshite do'

Peter Barry
44 Posted 15/11/2016 at 03:01:56
Koeman really isn't 'one of us' at all... in fact he seems to hold us Evertonians in contempt: here he is predicting the RS will win the Premier League.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/Everton-boss-ronald-koeman-claims-9257789
Jim Knightley
45 Posted 15/11/2016 at 03:23:37
Some of the comments on here pathetic. I get some parochialism but Koeman is talking the truth. Liverpool are title contenders. And, for my money, they've looked the best team in the league so far. Do you really think Ferguson, Mourinho and the like never described their rivals in these terms?

Some on here just want a moan. Sometimes it is for good reasons, and sometimes it nears ill-educated temper tantrums.

Let's ignore the optimism of Koeman's words, and his hopes for the future. His comments about Liverpool are more important.

Chris Holding
46 Posted 15/11/2016 at 04:40:30
We are so very lucky to have one of the best managers in Europe committed to making Everton FC a powerhouse in European football once again. I am 32 years old, all my family is from Liverpool. We are all Everton supporters except for one red. I have never had the opportunity to see us compete for a league title. In fact, until Moyes came along, the thing we mostly competed for was "not finishing in the bottom three".

Things got a lot better. We had some great moments and some great players with Moyes in charge but we were never a title challenging team and when we were in Europe our small squad could never quite cope with the extra demands. Sure we have Moshiri's millions now but without a real top class manger to get it all to work, money does not always equal success (just ask clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Portsmouth, etc).

It might not work out in the long run but Koeman and Everton FC deserve and need our support right now. Koeman never said anything other than give me a couple of years and I will deliver you a team capable of challenging for honors. It won't work without our support. COYB!
Alan J Thompson
47 Posted 15/11/2016 at 05:00:24
Did anyone see any Dutch or Belgian reporters? Pheww!! Small mercies.
Darren Hind
48 Posted 15/11/2016 at 07:10:10
Please can we cut this "If you don't like the him telling it like it is, tough" shite. or "He's Dutch so he says what he wants" bollocks. Especially if you're one of those who won't face the REAL truth.

If Koeman was being REALLY honest, he would come out and say stuff like "You know what, guys, I won't ask you to deny the evidence of your own eyes. We ALL know I was a proper Frankie at Chelsea and it won't happen again." He didn't, he exonerated himself of all blame.

If he was REALLY "telling it like it is", he would come out and say "Everton had two realistic chances of landing a trophy this season... and guess what? I've already made a proper fucking pig's ear of landing the first."

If his unique brand of "Dutch honesty" was the same as every other Dutch person's honesty, he would tell us how embarrassing it was to be completely out played and out thought by Eddie Howe. Of course he didn't.

He would say he should have gone straight for Dyche's over-achievers from the off, rather than wait until we had gone behind.

I would have far more respect for this "Honesty" if he admitted that he had fucked up playing two ageing and out-of-form centre-halves at the expense of a kid who had done more than enough to warrant his place – ahead of either of them... OR, if he said something like "WTF was I thinking, spunking forty million quid on an ageing centre-half, who makes Stubbsy look like Usain Bolt, and an ineffective show pony?"

Koeman's "refreshing honesty" seems to extend as far as stating the blindingly fucking obvious. There seems to be some confusion between his penchant for highlighting things were are all already painfully aware of and putting us straight on a few things.

A genuinely honest man will not always point the finger. He will give an honest assessment of himself too. This guy's crass buffoonery is really starting to grate, but not nearly as much as the clams that he is only telling us the unpalatable truth.

If he chopped down your cherry tree, he would almost certainly point the finger at some other fucker.

Tony Abrahams
49 Posted 15/11/2016 at 07:39:31
I honestly don't know that much about the teams in the league, Steavey, but I reckon Everton will come in the top half of it, which is why I think you overestimate.

English football is fast and frantic, but unless teams are going for the very top positions, I don't think quality is that important in this vastly overrated league?

Paul Tran
50 Posted 15/11/2016 at 08:04:58
Darren, my Dutch family were very forthright about our latest performance and that of their countryman!

This Dutch thing is being overplayed on here. The big issues are that he hasn't excited me yet, there's no shape or strategy in his team and the sharpness and movement of the early part of the season has disappeared.

My only crumb of comfort is that a year ago, a 'charismatic' European manager's team was booed off after a home defeat. He had a go at the fans leaving early and demanded everyone's patience. We all laughed. He's laughing now and I hope Koeman's watching and learning, because I'm happy to admit that I'd like to watch an Everton team playing like his!

Len Hawkins
51 Posted 15/11/2016 at 09:12:41
Paul Kossoff, you should be a Chairman – your clamour for instant success is made for the job.

Koeman has been here a few months and, because we aren't unbeaten and clear at the top of the league with 100 goals for and none against, he can't win.

Kendall was dire until one day in Oxford. Ferguson was on the verge of the sack at Man Utd and went on to become arguably No 1 in the world.

Who would you advocate taking over? De Boer – he's available – or one of the other turnstile managers who wheel their compo from one club to another? If you and others expect Koeman not to have his own views on football and just to toe the Evertonian line with every word vetted by some sort of Royal Blue Star Chamber, then no-one will ever suit, will they?

Paul Chaloner
53 Posted 15/11/2016 at 10:09:17
Interesting how him stating they 'can' win the league amongst other contenders including Man Utd can be easily interpreted as the red side will win the league.

We all know what the press are like. Just like Koeman expects us to be challenging for the championship. That wasn't covered in the press. It's all sound bites and answers to direct questions.

Every person I speak to says they don't believe what they read in the papers but happy to spout the daily tabloid rubbish. 5 months and a handful of games and he's being condemned by some. Thankfully Howard wasn't judged so quickly by the board.

Chelsea has wobbled us all but a sense of perspective is required here before we disappear into La-la land like the dump across the park.

Lewis Montgomery
54 Posted 15/11/2016 at 10:15:20
The truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Clive Rogers
55 Posted 15/11/2016 at 10:51:44
Koeman is not the problem. It is the shambles left behind by Kenwright and Martinez.
Steve Carse
56 Posted 15/11/2016 at 10:52:34
If we win both league derby games, then Liverpool won't win the league. The derby games give us the chance to do down their trophy aspirations rather than relying on others doing it (eg, Man Utd for many seasons; Chelsea in the famous Slippy match 2 years ago). That's why they remain very important.

Yes it would be preferable that going in to derby games we were playing for our own trophy prospects. But, failing that, it would surely be a source of happiness should Koeman show his mettle and we take 6 from 6 points against them – particularly if other results have failed to improve significantly over the rest of the season.

Brian Denton
57 Posted 15/11/2016 at 11:16:09
Steve (#56), prepare to face the onslaught of the "What the fuck does it matter what they do, they are just another team" brigade!

I'm with you 100%, so I'd better get my armour on too.

Charles Barrow
58 Posted 15/11/2016 at 11:37:35
The only thing that matters is whether Koeman brings success. I couldn't care less what he says about the RS. I can handle it.

If we aren't up there next season challenging for the top 4 and impressing in the cups (assuming he has financial support) then he can 'do one'. That's all that maters at the end of the day.

Dave Lynch
59 Posted 15/11/2016 at 11:46:10
Shock fucking horror!!!!

Man gives honest opinion on question asked of him.

I'm going for a lie down, I can't take all this honesty mullarkey...

Brian Harrison
60 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:20:07
I think the biggest problem that Koeman needs to sort and quickly is our lack of goals, other than Lukaku. He signed Bolasie who I agree can be absolutely anything, but even Koeman said on signing him that 9 goals in 3 seasons is not good enough. So far he has scored 1 in 11 so no improvement there.

Barkley, Deulofeu, Lennon, Cleverley, Valencia and Mirallas don't seem to have improved their goalscoring since Koeman arrived.

Yes, he has only been here a short while but until we address this problem, we will have little or no chance of improving. Now is it down to our style or is it that these players are not clinical enough in front of goal? Whichever it is, these problems need sorting and quickly.

Phil Jeffries
61 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:27:20
Pains me to say it, but Liverpool are in with a chance thanks to Klopp polishing that turd of a squad. I hope the wheels fall off, but Koeman is right.

As for us? When was the last time we had a manager say that we should be challenging for the title? The guy is just straight to the point and 100% honest. Moshiri likes him and will back him. I'll give him at least another 2 transfer windows before I start going off my block.

Brian Furey
62 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:41:15
It looks to me like the media know Koeman can be manipulated quite easy into saying the wrong things and they love creating controversy. This comment by Ron coming so soon after the Lukaku comment last week just creates more tension between him and some of the fans.

What I mean is, should we win our next few games, then it will all be forgotten about... but, should we struggle between now and Xmas, then Ron will be under pressure and the fans will start getting on his back.

We've got Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool all at home in December and so I would fear for Koeman that December will see us struggle to get the wins to keep us in the top half of the table. If that is the case, I can see the pressure rising on the boss big time and these latest comments coming back to haunt him.

Sean Patton
63 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:45:21
So he needs 3 or 4 transfer windows now? How many has his new favourite team needed to go top and how many did Ranieri take to win the title?
Brian Williams
64 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:46:58
He was asked a question which he not only answered honestly, but answered correctly.

Had he said "No, they've got no chance of the title and they're jammy and they're gonna bottle it soon" he'd have come across as small-minded and petty which would have been more embarrassing to us in the grand scheme of things.

Tony Cunningham
65 Posted 15/11/2016 at 13:50:36
Liverpool are title contenders (I so wish they weren't but they are). I don't see what the problem is with him saying so. I'd be more worried if he said they weren't just to keep a small number of Everton fans happy.

Hopefully he's focused on the bigger picture of how we perform and realising who the best teams are helps him do that.

Steve Brown
66 Posted 15/11/2016 at 14:34:45
I support Koeman, but it is professionally naive to make the comments he did about our prize asset and most bigger rivals. He invites misunderstanding and misinterpretation where there is really no need to do so.

Managers can be plain speaking, honest, outspoken, candid whatever, but they generally do so after they have earned the right by achieving success. He has a long way to go before he is in a position to do that.

He is also intelligent enough to understand that his comments by inference are a judgement on Everton's status as a club. Not incorrect of course after years of BK's sentimentality, half-truths and commercial incompetence. But he has to earn the right to comment like this without Everton fans challenging him hard.

Jim Hardin
67 Posted 15/11/2016 at 14:35:17
So now, per one poster, Ronald Koeman is the best thing to have happened to us as a manager for essentially too many years. What has he done to deserve this mantle? Has he saved us from relegation? No. Built a solid squad and stabilized the team into a perennial competitive top seven team? No. Made us a top four team? No. Won a Cup? No. Secured a place in Europe? No. Belittled the club and told our best player to leave to achieve individual success as a player? Yes.

Then we get the comment about how lucky we are to have one of the top managers in Europe? Really? Did I miss Barca, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern, Juve, or Roma coming in for him when we were hiring him? Thought not. His last job in Europe (England excluded due to Brexiting) outside the mighty Eredivisie was a shambles and rather Martinez-esque, resulting in a firing.

Pardon me if I am underwhelmed at this point. I am not stating that he won't achieve success here (It will be long overdue and great for Everton if he does) but perhaps we can reserve the glowing platitudes on how good a manager he really is until he actually does something with Everton by which managers can be and are measured objectively?

Steve Brown
68 Posted 15/11/2016 at 14:36:58
And Liverpool will not be title challengers as their squad is one Coutinho injury away from being bang average.
Chris Gould
69 Posted 15/11/2016 at 15:15:22
Jim, you can't discount Koeman's last European job at Southampton because of Brexit!?

I don't understand your logic. It just seems you want to excuse the excellent job he did there to continue a negative rhetoric.

Of course you are entitled to your view of Koeman, but it is a little disingenuous to discount his Southampton job simply because it suits your argument.

Brent Stephens
70 Posted 15/11/2016 at 15:20:59
We're still in the EU – no Brexit yet (I wonder if ever, in fact) – so Southampton experience counts, Jim.
Joe O'Brien
71 Posted 15/11/2016 at 15:43:32
Sean @ 63, they took at least 3 windows if not 4 and Leicester was a 5000/1 shot and will probably never to be repeated again.

I wish people would give Koeman a chance, he's after what... 11 matches, ffs... he was Moshiri's first choice.

Do people want to go back to last January when we had Bill solely in charge and Martinez in charge also? We'd be in the bottom 5 right now for sure leaking goals by the dozen and not scoring because Rom would have left is in the summer.

Ray Roche
72 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:15:24
Jim Hardin#67

" but perhaps we can reserve the glowing platitudes on how good a manager he really is until he actually does something with Everton by which managers can be and are measured objectively?"

Don't mind if I rewrite this for you Jim?

" but perhaps we can reserve the unfair condemnation and judgement on how good a manager he really is until he actually has the time to do something with Everton by which managers can be and are measured objectively?

There. That's better isn't it?

Alex Bonnar
73 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:24:29
Being sensible and realistic, okay not very exciting for fans, but Koeman will improve us but in stages. When he was appointed, I thought the following would be acceptable:-

1st season, top 8 – stop the rot and make some progress.
2nd season, top 6 and into Europe.
3rd season, top 4 and into Champions League.
4th season, if still here, top 2 plus a new stadium.

Although 'we' now have more money, we still cannot compete with the multi-billionaires so realistically it needs to be Walsh and Koeman plus some big bucks on buying certain players and income from selling a few others (Lukaku?) to achieve long-term success, methinks.

Mark Morrissey
74 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:36:46
Ray Roche @ 72. Thanks. It needed saying and not for the first time and not just for Jims benefit. He's hardly in a minority. Spot on
Stan Schofield
75 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:37:58
Koeman's comments about Liverpool are entirely valid, and I can't see a problem with them.

The situation with Koeman is very similar to when Klopp took over at Liverpool, at which point they appeared to need significant rebuilding, and after which performances were still often dire under Klopp. At the time, Klopp said that his players needed to be fitter for his pressing game, that they were taking some time to get used to this new regime, but that they WOULD get used to it because they were young professional footballers who could adapt.

Striking and memorable words, similar to Koeman's comments about us. The fact that Liverpool are now playing well could be seen as encouraging for us, given that they've obviously adapted after a year or so of the new regime.

John Pierce
76 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:40:30
The praise or condemnation of Koeman at this stage is warranted. He's a quarter of the way through the season and, if we are to progress as a club, a tighter more critical eye on the manager's performance is the way forward.

I would worry to go back to "patience and give him a window or two". This is a critical season in terms of keeping players, attracting new ones to improve the side.

What is more worrying is both Ronald and his brother are rowing back slightly on getting into Europe. This is the bridge to the above and allowing us to increase our income etc.

For this ToffeeWebber, if he fails to get us into Europe the job becomes so much more difficult, and will damn his tenure at Everton.

For example, whatever you think about Lukaku, he scores goals. Most on the site believe we have one last season with him. Losing him will kill our goal output (another debate for another day) and chances of getting decent players to replace him.

Evertonians beware –we have to over-perform this season to bridge the gap, otherwise I fear, even with the money and vision, Everton will tread water in oh so familiar style.

Stan Schofield
77 Posted 15/11/2016 at 16:52:22
John, spot-on. I believe we can improve significantly with the current squad of players.

We keep talking about transfer windows, but the focus should be on getting existing players to perform, the sooner the better, preferably NOW.

Players like Barkley, Mirallas, and Deulofeu have shown in the past what they can do, so they can show it again. Surely the skill and expertise of Koeman is making this happen, similarly to Klopp making his squad perform better.

Coutinho has been mentioned repeatedly on TW threads because he's playing well, but he was far from playing well a year ago. Our players have the ability to adapt to what Koeman wants, because (to repeat Klopp's words) they are young professional footballers who can adapt.

Mick Davies
78 Posted 15/11/2016 at 17:00:17
Most managers: "I only comment on my team, I'm only interested in them".
Koeman: "Lukaku should go to Barcelona, Liverpool could win the league".

Other managers: "I can't comment on other club's players".
Koeman: "I'd like Rooney if he's available" ... "I'm interested in Depay".

Other managers: "We let the fans down badly, and as manager I'm responsible".
Koeman: "Everton didn't play well today, the opposition worked harder".

As an Evertonian in my mid to late 50s, having suffered Bingham, Lee, Harvey, Walker, Smith, Kendall Mk 2 and Mk 3, Martinez and the later Moyes years, I can honestly say that I've never had less confidence in an Everton boss so early in his reign. I hope this turns into an unexpected surprise and he comes up smelling of roses, winning us trophies etc... but I won't be holding my breath.

Trevor Peers
79 Posted 15/11/2016 at 17:29:08
Classic, Darren (#48),

Highly enjoyable post, probably shouldn't encourage you, but that's just about where we're at with Koeman at the moment.

Only a good run of results and a great January window can turn things round for the Dutchman, who's beginning to make as many gaffes as his bullshitting predecessor, and that really takes some doing!

Stan Schofield
80 Posted 15/11/2016 at 17:44:32
Mick @78: 'Liverpool could win the league' is not a problem for me as @77. However, I view 'Lukaku should go to Barcelona' (or variation thereof) as unprofessional, as I said on another thread.

It's apparent that Koeman has things to learn when he speaks. However, performance on the pitch has to be judged as results accumulate, and it seems too early to judge just yet.

Jim Hardin
81 Posted 15/11/2016 at 17:51:27
Ray,

Re-write all you want. I didn't condemn him, merely asked what has he done to warrant the plaudits being thrown his way. As for what he did at Southampton getting them to top 6-7, great but I thought we were done celebrating Moyes-esque achievements, as the makings of a great manager, weren't we?

As for Premier League accomplishments, based upon the results there, then we should not have gotten rid of Martinez as he won a Cup and finished higher than Koeman. Is he then the greatest manager we have had in a long long while?

All I am saying is that maybe less on the superlatives and more focus on the actual results (not really very good recently) and work before we erect a statue of the man outside Goodison Park. Although, if we want to, I hear Southampton may have a spare one collecting dust.

James Hughes
82 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:05:08
Can I ask a question, as we are rushing to judge after so soon? In the amazing Hollywood of the NW of England, how are the rest of the celebs doing? Or do you want to put your toys back in the pram.

Pep – has suffered allegedly the worst defeat of his career, despite the funds he has available and Man City not playing well.

Jose – at the mighty Man Utd with the club having spent more money in the past 3 years than Fergie did in all his time in charge. Money spent would be enough to build our promised new stadium.

Klippety Klopp – doing okay at the moment after one year in charge, made two finals and lost both, one quite comprehensively I believe.

But dat dere Koeman... 'e's fucking shite 'e is!!! Bin 'ere ages and we play like yard dogs, 'eadless fuckin' yard dogs. Get shot of 'im.

I am not being an apologist for him, just pointing out some realities?


Andy Crooks
83 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:06:40
Jim, Koeman may be great, poor or average, I can't tell yet and – after so little time – who can? I thought his and the team's showing at Chelsea was lamentable. However, in my view, making overall judgements so soon is ridiculous.

Also, I think his success as a player counts for little but his work at Southampton, to me, means a lot. I believe he will succeed at our club but I will moan at the blips on the way.

Eddie Dunn
84 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:25:15
Patience is needed for the rest of this season and the summer, and we will have had a couple more "windows" to see what surgery Koeman thinks is required to the playing staff.

At the beginning of the season, most people on here thought that if we finish in the upper half, then it would be progress. It appears that the need for constant games, regular interviews and the media spotlight has led most of us into a constant state of impatience. This reaches a peak during these interminable international breaks.

The debacle at the 'Bridge has been hanging over us all for too long. Normally we could have got on and put things right the following week. Thank God we have a game this weekend so we can concentrate on the football instead of arguing over the minutia of what Koeman has said. I hope we bloody win!

Phil Walling
85 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:31:20
I do feel that the rush to write off Koeman is principally because Ranieri needed just a few weeks to transform Leicester's no-hopers into Premier League leaders. This one-off feat – as it is already looking – has rather skewed our judgement, I fear.

Martinez is just another manager to add to the long list Mick Davies trots out at 78 above. A mere mortal!

Ray Roche
86 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:41:14
Jim (#81),

Erm... I don't think I need to rewrite anything else, Jim. I think I covered it well enough at (#72).

All the bluster and harrumphing round like Colonel Melchett from Blackadder won't hide the fact that Koeman has had a dozen or so games to tidy up after Roberto Baldrick. Let's give him a bit more time before we send him over the top, eh Darling?

Patrick Murphy
87 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:51:26
23 is the number of league victories this current Everton squad, minus the new recruits, has achieved, not during the last campaign, but in the last two completed seasons. I don't know many managers who could walk into the hot-seat, rip everything up and suddenly transform the results within a dozen matches.

Everton won six league games at Goodison Park last season, seven the season before, again a lamentable record achieved by many of the players who remain first choices this season, mainly because the board, manager, owner didn't sign enough quality players during the summer.

The Echo are postulating that Koeman, because he has gone public with his desire to see Depay in an Everton shirt, is putting pressure on the owner and the board to see a more pro-active transfer window in January. We'll see how that pans out fairly soon.

Saturday can't come soon enough for all of us, then we can see what effect the Chelsea debacle has had on the team and to a lesser extent the supporters. A good victory may help to ease some of the tensions, however, a failure to win will have many in a state of high anxiety, and a team full of nervous wrecks the next time they take to the pitch.


Paul Conway
88 Posted 15/11/2016 at 18:51:42
Jim Hardin (#67),

He has Kudos and a reputation. He has played at the highest level with the best and won trophies with the best. Not since Howard Kendall have we had someone as manager with such a glowing CV.

He speaks the truth and it hurts to some fans, but players will be hurt also when they are shown the door!

He has potential... Just like Ross Barkley, only I only hope he doesn't last as long as Barkley if he doesn't deliver!

Ray Smith
89 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:21:27
If we climb into a Euro place by Xmas we may well attract new players during the window.

If Europe looks unlikely, what quality player would want to join us? Although money is a major factor, it's not the be all and end all for the type of player we want to see at Goodison.

We get linked with every player who can't get in their current side (Man Utd) for one, so the price automatically goes up beyond realism.

Give Koeman the chance to put the foundations in place for a push to the top next season.

Rome wasn't built in a day. This will be an up and down season, hopefully a Europa League slot at best. Top 4, not this season!

Offload some of the deadwood, we have a lot of the pieces of the jigsaw, but need to locate the missing bits. Joe Hart for a start.

Any other suggestions?

Ian Bennett
90 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:37:42
I understand that Hart was all set to join, and Koeman said no. Terms with the player and club had been agreed.
Patrick Murphy
92 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:43:38
This piece by Tony Barrett has its merits?

Honesty

Brian Harrison
93 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:44:12
Patrick (#87),

I think your post just highlights how bad we were for the last 2 seasons and, as you rightly say, most of the squad is exactly the same. I think getting to the FA Cup Semi-Final delayed the inevitable sacking, thus Koeman came in later than was ideal.

I agree with Koeman changing the mindset of these players will be just as important as any change in style that he is trying to implement. I also agree that Saturdays game has taken on a much bigger profile that it might have been. But with the crushing defeat to Chelsea and some of the comments made on various matters from Koeman has I think put an extra pressure on the result on Saturday.I really hope we get a win and as important play well, then we will all be able to move on in a more positive frame of mind.

As I have said many times I think Koeman will do a great job, he cant change what he has said and I am sure he wont be as open with the press in future. He needs a victory and so do the players and fans, because I don't think that ToffeeWeb will be a happy place at 5:00pm on Saturday, and sadly for a few days after as well.

Brian Harrison
94 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:48:57
Patrick

Tony Barret is a season ticket holder at Liverpool, so hardly an independent voice.

Max Murphy
95 Posted 15/11/2016 at 19:51:28
Do we seriously give Jack Shit anyway? We're never going to get out of this malaise – so sit back and watch a very mediocre side hover around mid-table and beyond... while we pay exorbitant salaries to over-hyped and overrated players and managers.

This is Everton FC.

Brian Williams
96 Posted 15/11/2016 at 20:43:44
Max, are you going from thread to thread and just spouting overly negative shite to get a reaction are do you really believe the overly negative shite you're spouting?
Ray Roche
97 Posted 15/11/2016 at 21:09:10
Brian (#94), he may not be an "independent" voice but it's difficult to argue with his article. I think some are suffering snow blindness following Martinez and his preposterous ramblings and can't see the truth when the likes of Koeman tells it like it is.

Give the guy a chance.

David Booth
99 Posted 15/11/2016 at 21:39:48
Not convinced by all this talk of 3-year plans and needing several transfer windows. And even less so after he brought five new players (almost half a team), in during the last transfer window.

Yet I have not seen any difference whatsoever from the way we were under Martinez for the last two seasons. Great on paper but disjointed, lacking morale, dispirited when conceding a goal, collectively clueless as a team and playing like 11 individuals rather than a well-drilled team.

Had it not been for a few flashes of inspiration from some of the players in the five (yes, just FIVE) games we have won, not many would have the grounds to commend our new manager on the basis of what he has achieved so far.

Personally, I haven't seen any green shoots of recovery yet, nor any tangible sign that Koeman has changed anything about our playing style, resilience, fitness or confidence.

A tame surrender against Norwich, poor defeats against Bournemouth and Burnley and utter humiliation against Chelsea. Cowardly against Man City too and nothing much to shout about in any of the other games so far.

So, P11, W5, D3, L3, F15, A13 (+2) 18pts

Compare that to his first 11 games at Southampton - where he lost five key players right before the start of his first season: P11, W8, D1, L2, F23, A5 (+18) 25 points

He didn't need three or four transfer windows then, with arguably a weaker squad.

I admire those who have rushed to defend him here and would stress that this is an observation from me, not a criticism.

However, I don't see any particular grounds for optimism yet and even less if he keeps talking us down whilst bigging our fiercest rivals up as well as making a case for our best player to pursue his career elsewhere.

Actions speak louder than words Mr Koeman. Keep your trap shut for a while maybe and let's see some?

Tony Abrahams
100 Posted 15/11/2016 at 21:47:19
Steve (#68), I hope you're correct mate, but I would also prefer their other Brazilian to get injured, just to make sure!
Patrick Murphy
101 Posted 15/11/2016 at 21:58:02
Dear Mr Moshiri, you have made a severe error of judgement in appointing Ronald Koeman as the Everton FC manager. You really should have appointed David Unsworth, Kevin Sheedy and Duncan Ferguson. They are all true Blues, they would never give the neighbours the time of day and they would know exactly what Evertonians want to see.

The fact they have little or no experience of managing a major club in the top-flight is neither here nor there. They would have worked for a fraction of the wages you pay the Dutch guy and his entourage and they wouldn't have been too bothered if you had kept your wallet closed as they would work 24/7 to ensure the youngsters at the club progressed to the first team in a matter of months.

I'm surprised that Bill didn't let you know how this club ticks and how its supporters have become increasingly impatient, waiting for the 21st Century Oxford moment, or the new Peter Reid to lead them to the promised land.

Don't bother building a new ground anywhere close to the river as it's far too cold and windy there and some supporters are unable to walk very far, despite being physically fit. Keep your money and sit on your hands because there is no chance that Everton FC will turn the corner, regardless of which outsider you appoint, or how many over-paid footballers you sign.

This is Everton FC, Mr Moshiri, we enjoy our traditions and we're not really fussed about success as we prefer to find stuff to moan about – the more often we fail the better it is to be Blue.


Andy Crooks
102 Posted 15/11/2016 at 22:08:50
Patrick, I suspect you have made a mistake in not deploying the irony font.
Bobby Thomas
103 Posted 15/11/2016 at 22:49:05
Sean Patton (#63),

Quite right, 'cos that happens all the time.

Kevin Tully
104 Posted 15/11/2016 at 23:14:09
Patrick (#92) – That piece by Barrett is spot on BTW.

Typical some fans don't want to hear it because he's a red.

Dick Fearon
105 Posted 15/11/2016 at 23:36:17
A small display of animated enthusiasm would not go astray. I do not want Koeman leaping about like a circus monkey as seen in many other Premier League technical areas.
Mick Davies
106 Posted 16/11/2016 at 01:22:43
Patrick @ 101, Unsworth has a 100% win rate – better than ANY manager in our history!!!
Darren Hind
107 Posted 16/11/2016 at 05:34:38
This is getting ridiculous.

Give a short list of only some of his mistakes so far and its deemed unfair condemnation (even though nobody wants to challenge them). Call for him to be honest in his assessment of himself and you are being overly negative.

Then, after having the last straw man argument exposed, we now have a silly attempt to drag the new stadium into the debate. The inference being, if you are not gullible enough to swallow Koeman's one way "Honesty" you clearly don't want a new stadium... WTF is all that about ?

This "Dutch honesty" nonsense really should be put to bed. He hasn't said a single thing that most of us haven't known for years. There no "truth we can't handle". Its smacked us between the fucking eyes every day for the best part of three decades. We don't we need to pay a guy £20m quid to tell us what we already know, nor do we need a card-carrying kopite like Barrett to confirm it.

What I want to know is what Honest Ronnie is going to do about it? I don't want the excuse factory pointing to our situation and saying "well what do you expect ?" ... I expect the guy to at least look like he knows what he is doing. I expect a guy who has this new found reputation for "honesty" to tell the whole truth. I expect him to admit he got things wrong and stop treating us like fucking idiots.


Thomas Lennon
108 Posted 16/11/2016 at 06:59:49
Koeman's honesty us what stands the best chance of changing things at our club. No more blowing blue smoke up the ass of players who 'love Everton', no more meek acceptance of 7-10th. That goes for the new owner too. Double our wage bill, double squad quality THEN talk about winning things.
Paul Tran
109 Posted 16/11/2016 at 07:38:46
Darren, your posts on this issue are very annoying. I keep reading them and can't find anything to argue with. Stop it!

Seriously, I couldn't give a flying Donald about whether he dances on the touchline, calls us 'we', or is 'honest'. A balanced team that knows what it's doing, a bit of entertainment and genuine goal threat would be the starting point for me. The other stuff is all nonsense.

I'm comforting myself with a vision of Koeman walking round Finch Farm asking, "Guyssh, what issh an Frankie?"

John Daley
110 Posted 16/11/2016 at 10:22:56
Koeman walking round Finch Farm asking, "Guyssh, what issh an Frankie?"

And, quick as a flash, Barkley pipes up with "Fucked if I know gaffer, but me bird's read her diary."

Brent Stephens
111 Posted 16/11/2016 at 11:06:10
Very good, John!

This is an extract from an Amazon-based summary of Anne Frank – the Diary of a Young Girl:

"Cut off from the outside world, they faced...the constant cruelties of living in confined quarters." – A feeling those who attend Goodison Park are familiar with.

And this: "In her diary Anne Frank recorded vivid impressions of her experiences during this period. By turns thoughtful, moving, and amusing, her account offers a fascinating commentary on human courage and frailty." – Could almost describe ToffeeWeb.

Kevin Tully
112 Posted 16/11/2016 at 11:27:48
Darren, no manager is going to stand in front of the press and consistently take the blame for poor performances. Professional suicide comes to mind. They might admit a poor substitution once a season, but that's about as much as any manager will admit to getting wrong.

I'm sure Koeman has a plan to improve us, and I'm also fairly sure that plan doesn't involve a 72 year old Gareth Barry, a shitty Tom Cleverley, or even a sulky Kevin Mirallas.

This manager will be backed in the transfer market, so there will be no excuses to peddle once he has a decent midfield, a real goalkeeper and support for Lukaku.

After waiting this long, I'm happy to wait another 12 months to see what he can do before demanding instant results with a bunch of mid-table cast-offs that currently pollute the side.

Daniel Lim
113 Posted 16/11/2016 at 11:46:13
David (#99),

Note that you were just telling us your observation regarding the first 11 matches between us and Soton.

But do you have any potential explanation of that observation?

I myself can't think of any.

Brian Furey
114 Posted 16/11/2016 at 17:06:00
I'm just curious what are people's expectations for Koeman this season? Some of the negative comments seem unreal?

Would you be happy finishing 5th-7th or do you think we should be pushing for top 4?

Which of the current top 7 teams do you think we will do better than?

Personally, I'd be very pleased to finish 5th above Spurs and Man Utd but unless we bring in some goal scoring talent in January, I think we'll finish 7th.

We have all been blinded by Martinez "men in black" pen for the past 3 seasons and thought our squad was a lot better than it is but Koeman is making us realise now how limited some of these players really are.

Last season, Southampton, West Ham and of course Leicester were all ...

Kevin Tully
115 Posted 16/11/2016 at 17:09:12
Lineker interview with Koeman tonight at 22.00 on BBC2. Try not to get too upset now lads!
Paul Tran
116 Posted 16/11/2016 at 18:17:51
I'm looking forward to reading the views of people who play the tape backwards and hear stuff, plus the views of the body language and linguistic experts, who will make a dull interview almost interesting.

Gets piece of A4 and writes down the checklist:

We/Us
Everton
Patience
Pressing
History
Hard work
Project
Window
Frankie

Paul Tran
117 Posted 16/11/2016 at 18:21:38
Brian, every season I set the standard at top six. Don't get it, I want to know why. Do get it, I want to hear how we improve.

The fact that we're 7th without playing well tells me this league ain't up to much and we should be doing better, and will do when/if Koeman works out what he's doing and can communicate it to the players.

Phil Walling
118 Posted 16/11/2016 at 19:00:54
Paul, In this century, I've always thought of Everton as a 'seventhish' club given that the resources available to us are so obviously inferior to at least six clubs viz: Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs in no particular order.

'Best of the Rest' was seen as ultra success by the Kenwright regime and Moyes generally delivered it. Martinez's peculiar vision of re-inventing the game promised but deceived and the jury have hardly been sworn in on Koeman's tenure.

I tend to think that the Mighty Foxes confused us all last season but things are more or less back to normal going into the break. Personally, I feel that EIGHTH will be the best we can hope for this time round and, even if The Mosh raids his piggy back in January, it will only ensure that we reach that lofty perch.

Darren Hind
119 Posted 16/11/2016 at 19:49:35
Kevin,

Of course no manager is going to stand in front of the press and admit he's made big mistakes. that would take real honesty.

These threads are becoming identical to Martinez threads. People are beginning to make Koeman into something he's not. Somebody who will deliver a "few home truths" call a spade a spade... it's utter utter bollocks. If Koeman is telling these people stuff they didn't already know, they must have been living in a cave for the past 20 years.

We know where we are, we know how we got here, we know how much ground we have to make up, we know the paucity of our revenue streams, we know how far down the pecking order we've fallen, We know the shite are looking worryingly strong, we know Barcelona are a much bigger club than us, we know... we know a lot more about our situation than Koeman does...

"Big tough Ronald will tell you like it really is!"

Yeah, of course he will.

Patrick Murphy
120 Posted 16/11/2016 at 19:55:00
In the last 10 completed seasons, 11 teams have achieved 6th place or higher in the Premier League. Everton have managed this five times but haven't finished in the top four during that period.

Arsenal haven't finished lower than 4th, whilst Chelsea and Man Utd have missed out just once on top four places when they have finished in the top six. Leicester City have only managed one top six finish in the last 10 years but they did manage to lift the title.

In brackets indicates the number of top-four finishes:

Arsenal 10 (10);Chelsea 9 (8); Man Utd 9 (8); Spurs 8 (3);
Man City 7 (6); Liverpool 6 (4); Everton 5 (0); A Villa 3 (0) Leicester City 1 (1)

Southampton and Newcastle have one top-six finish apiece in the last 10 years but no top four spot.

Everton have only finished in the top six on 24 occasions since the end of WW2 and have managed a top four place just 14 times from that total, including four title-winning campaigns

John Pierce
121 Posted 16/11/2016 at 21:08:56
Patrick.

Lovely stats. Past is the past. New season, different manager, same-ish players. Expectations are different and rightly so. Should Koeman get 3 years? Nah.

Time for all facets of Everton, fanbase included, to get ambitious and hold the club to those ambitions without letting things meander along. Tight reins, Europe or bust by season's end. If not, significant progress MUST have been made and maybe, just maybe, the first 10 games of the next season.

I think that's fair and not unduly rash to judge a man who makes equally quick decisions and is clear about his objectives.

Cold fish the fella is... but the job is way bigger than he thought. Perhaps ultimately this mass of press work and interviews is his way of saying, "We are shit, I need backing" or "We are shit, I told you so early doors, and I'm off"?

December could be very messy...

Patrick Murphy
122 Posted 16/11/2016 at 22:10:18
John (#121),

I now understand why "post-truth" has made it into the Oxford English Dictionary as an adjective. It seems that facts, when put in a numerical form, are dismissed as 'nice stats'. I share the aspiration and ambition that most Evertonians have for the club and team, however, to achieve those aims it will take time and a great deal of money. Some will argue that it shouldn't and that we have the tools to do the job right here, right now.

I don't share that view and feel we need a major overhaul to get us back on the right track. The club needs a giant shake-up and – apart from the glory days of the '60s and '80s – it has massively underachieved at all other points in the last 70 years.

For example, Arsenal have finished in the top six positions for the last 20 years, only four short of Everton's tally for the last 70 years. It may be statistical but it is a fact and not a very pleasant one at that.

John Pierce
125 Posted 16/11/2016 at 22:33:41
Patrick,

Let's not use a dictionary, you find only facts and reason in there, not allowed on ToffeeWeb!

You are arguing along the same lines as myself. The stats don't need to be presented as it's clear that both the task at hand is an almighty one – even with players better than we currently have. Plus anyone wishing to debate on here should know that crap. Premier Punditry 101.

My crux is that, even with an average squad, we do not have the luxury of 2 or 3 years.

As such, we have to find a manger who can make more out of what we have as, even with each window that passes, so do our chances of bridging the gap to qualify for Europe and the good things that come of that.

Now here's the rub: I believe Koeman has done okay. But okay is no longer good enough, has he done poorly, no, getting that lot to win 5 matches is heartening. However, within the 10 games there have been aspects of our play which warrant serious rebuke to Koeman. Now if this is left to fester or just plain go unchecked, things drift quickly.

New players don't fix the errors in selection or tactics – that's on him.

Dictionaries make excellent doorstops!

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