Koeman defiant in response to Klopp's clowning

Saturday 1 April 2017  161 Comments  [Jump to last]

Ronald Koeman says he was proud of his team's efforts in the Merseyside derby despite what was a fairly comfortable victory for Liverpool.

"I'm really proud about the team in the way how we played today," Koeman said after the 3-1 defeat. "Of course we lost the game, but I think the final result is not reflecting our performance.

"OK, they have some quality players and, in my opinion, we conceded too easy the second and the third [goals], started by our mistake in both positions and they punished us for this. We didn't punish them for the mistakes they did.

"But overall, I think we can be proud of how we played and how we made it difficult for Liverpool. That is how we like to play and how we like to continue."

Koeman reserved his criticism for the touchline antics of Jurgen Klopp and his management team after in their communication with referee Anthony Taylor and the fourth official.

The German took particular umbrage at Ross Barkley who was perhaps fortunate not to see red for a late tackle on Dejan Lovren towards the end of the first half.

"It's part of football," Koeman explained. "I saw also some tackles from Lucas — and that's all about football — but we don't make a show like the bench of Liverpool about faults that happened on the pitch.

"We are different, we are more into the game and not about what happened with the referee and linesman and tackles. It's football, it was a hard but a fair game.

"I don't like coaches from the bench the whole time shouting to referees, to [the] linesmen making a big show about tackles. They were crazy and they didn't need an official on the pitch.

"It's not what I like, it's a man's sport and your behaviour has to be like that."

 

Reader Comments (161)

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Bob Skelton
1 Posted 01/04/2017 at 16:07:35
Watched Koeman interview. I thought we'd got rid Bullshiting interviews. We were absolutely crap and his tactics and team selection left a lot to be desired.

What has Mirallas done? He should've started and Barkley should've been hooked. No changes either personnel or tactics at half-time sealed our fate. Sad grumpy old Evertonian...

Peter Mills
2 Posted 01/04/2017 at 16:11:18
I like our manager, and usually agree with what he says and how he says it. But his after-match comments today are beyond belief, there was nothing to be "proud" about in that display, indeed some of the performances and tackles were shameful.
John Parker
3 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:26:48
All the fuss about Barkley's tackles is ridiculous. Okay, they weren't the best but for years Souness then McMahon and Gerrard kicked lumps out of our players. Never mind some of the players going soft, sounds like some of the fans are...

The game's over, we lost again to them, in a poor performance; we move on and if a kopite goes on about dirty players etc, tell them to shove it. Some people have short memories.

James Lee
4 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:26:55
The Deluded. Season Two.
Damian Wilde
5 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:32:58
I can't stand Klopp, smug bastard.
Stephen Karnes
6 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:34:04
For once, I don't agree with Koeman's assessment. Ross was awful and the defending was an embarrassment. Did we have a shot on target today, excluding the goal?

That, to me, was one of the worst performances of the season and just goes to show how much further we have to go to be a competitive side.

Brian Williams
7 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:35:49
Maybe talking before the anger's worn off, and wasn't going to slag his team while he still wanted to throttle Klopp. Maybe he cares about Everton more than people give him credit for. Or maybe he's just talking shite!
Dave Ganley
8 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:38:02
I'm a big fan of Koeman to date but I must have been watching a different game to him today. I just hope he's saying that to try and protect the players (for some bizarre reason) and it will be a different story behind closed doors.

That was not a game to be proud of, it was shameful, gutless and shocking for a team supposedly trying to breach the top 6. Personally if I was Koeman I would have said exactly that to the media.

The players need to be told in no uncertain terms that that kind of performance just isn't good enough for Everton. Sadly, it just doesn't hurt them enough. Maybe they need to be around supporters now and again for a reality check, including Koeman after those comments.

Ciarán McGlone
9 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:47:08
Plenty of our fans have been won over by Koeman's so-called honesty. Frankly, I think he's only honest when it suits him and he's quite capable of talking utter bullshit as well as the rest of them.

Proud of that shite... yeah, okay.

Michael Lynch
10 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:51:11
I'm happy for Koeman to call O'Neill and Klopp a pair of annoying knobends, because that's exactly what they are. I'm less impressed with his analysis of the game though.

David Pearl
11 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:51:46
Well, he was perhaps not being too harsh on them considering the youthful additions. One in particular would lose in a race to both Barry and Jagielka.

In leaving Barry out we had no foot on the ball. And no class in midfield. Our starting positions always wrong. If he was going to revert to a back 3 Holgate should of been in it. That kid is going places!

Koeman tried something different. It didn't work. I'd of preferred to just not play the game and give them the points.

Barkley got too excited anywhere near the ball and forgot the basics. He needs a certain shape and better players around him. Shame we missed Morgan and Seamus so much.

David Pearl
12 Posted 01/04/2017 at 17:54:19
Ytghhh – I just remembered we have Man Utd in the week. Brilliant.
Mike Green
13 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:04:57
I think he's just refusing to give them (LFC) the satisfaction of saying we weren't any good. Either that or he's doesn't want to demoralise the youngsters any more than they will have been after today - a situation which he and circumstance put them in.

It sounds like Klopp got right on his tits today and to be honest I'm more than happy he's pointed out the antics that twat gets up to on the sidelines – someone needs to.

Klopp's feigned disdain when he heard Koeman had discussed him in his interview were interesting (i.e. Koeman will now be cast as going against "form" or an unwritten managerial code for criticising him in public, which will potentially put other managers off doing the same, which will give him more licence to do what he does to refs and officials on match day – i.e. trying to intimidate them without reproach).

Klopps a bully, and the worst kind because he does it behind a smile. I don't think he's the nice guy he'd like everyone to think he is and I think Koeman knows this too.

For me Koeman's comments after the game were a smokescreen – water off a ducks back. I'm sure he knows how bad we were, he just didn't want to admit it in front of that lot.

Tony Heron
14 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:14:19
Dave @8. Spot on, couldn't agree more. I thought we were the club that had class? Koeman's remarks were beneath him and as for being "proud"!?

With regards to the performance, Barkley frustrates the life out of me. So talented and a joy to behold when on song. Today he was awful, but at least he showed he cared and was always trying, always asking for the ball and if a couple of his attempted passes had come off we could well have been singing his name instead of slagging him off. How fickle can fate be and the attitude of us fans?

As for Lukaku, well what can you say? Undoubtedly the best goalscorer we've had for years but his attitude is questionable, to say the least. He apparently has ambition to play at the highest level, nothing wrong with that, but if the best defenders in the Premier League can tie him up, with apparent ease, how does he think that he will succeed against some of the best in the world if he plays in the Champions League?

Darren Hind
15 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:18:35
"Proud"?

I sincerely hope that puts to bed the embarrassing "Good old Ronnie, tells it like it is" nonsense.

Don't blame him for the defeat, but I do blame him for rubbing salt into the wounds with this pap.

Anthony Hawkins
16 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:25:08
I wasn't able to watch the game but what was Koeman supposed to say about his makeshift defence? Should he have said we defended terribly when Pennington and Holgate were drafted in to replace more senior players?

Under the circumstances may be he thought Pennington did the best he could? That's not to say the rest of the team played well and many probably under-performed.

John Pickles
17 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:25:10
Now over to Bramley-Moore On Sea for the latest remake of Dad's Army:-

Cast List:-

Ronald Koeman as Capt Mainwaring. "I know we haven't many weapons, but give them what for anyway men!"

Phil Jagielka as Sgt Wilson. "Would you chaps mind most awfully marking one or two of the enemy when they come at us!"

Ashley Williams as Lance Cpl Jones. "Don't panic, Don't Panic!"

Matthew Pennington as Pvt Pike. "Mum says I shouldn't go near those nasty attackers!"

Leighton Baines as Pvt Fraser. We're doomed, doomed I say!"

Steve Barr
18 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:25:48
I disagree strongly with Koeman's assessment of our performance. We were very poor in most aspects of the game. Particularly, basic ball retention, and our spirit and determination was nowhere near where it must be to get anything from an away performance, nevermind at Anfield. Team selection did not help either.

I agree strongly with Koeman's comments regarding Klopp's and the rest of the Liverpool coaching staff trying to influence the officials from the touchline.

It's like watching parents on the touchline at a kiddie's game. Pathetic and it needs stamping out. It's not just Liverpool who are guilty of this nonsense. It seems to have evolved in line with the play-acting that is now part of the game on the pitch.


Peter Laing
19 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:29:54
On reflection, there must be some method in Koeman's madness. My initial thought was he was taking the piss, indulging in the apocalyptic post-match nonsense that Martinez became famous for.

However, Koeman is not stupid, he knew that he had taken a risk in selecting 3 or 4 rookies in key positions and did not want to hang them out to dry with a slaughtering.

There is also the situation with Barkley and Lukaku, Koeman has a job on his hands in the coming months.

Tony Draper
20 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:32:00
Oh, and to the refuseniks pointing at Barkley being lucky to stay on the pitch?

Twelve months ago this lad didn't have a tackle in him.

I like the recut diamond.

Jim Burns
21 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:32:32
Well said, Mike @ 13 – Koeman is definitely no mug and will get there. He was clearly feeling it and your comments about Klopp are spot on – it's a mask that will slip.
Kieran Kinsella
22 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:32:35
David Pearl

I agree. It wouldn't do much for the kids to berate them publicly. I'm sure he's no fool and can see who needs a kick in the ass.

Davies has come a long way quickly but this is his first season in the first team. Likewise Holgate, who was played out of position. Pennington just back off a long injury with what? One prior appearance to his name? Playing alongside geriatric Keystone Cops.

The guys who let us down were the reckless Barkley and the lazy Lukaku. I can't even say Williams and Jags let us down cause I think they're just past it so don't offer much. Clearly we need reinforcements. Publicly calling out some of our has-beens and wannabes won't change that.

Stan Schofield
23 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:34:00
Football managers these days speak and often act like politicians. Both Koeman and Klopp are politicians, both can bullshit and not accept responsibility for a defeat. Deflecting responsibility is a classic sign of a politician.

A difference between them is that Klopp is a showman, and gives the impression that he craves attention. His behaviour on the touch line is like Maureen's and some other managers, unacceptable as far as I am concerned. He is generally an embarrassment, doesn't take defeat well, and seems arrogant in victory.

Regarding Koeman's 'honesty', often he is refreshingly honest, but sometimes he is crass and undiplomatic. Sometimes the 'honesty' is the pseudo-honesty of the politician, easily seen through.

That said, all of this is less relevant than the fact that Koeman repeatedly gets his away tactics wrong, not setting us up to win, but to contain with an appearance of fear. If I just looked at our home form, I would say that Koeman is an excellent manager. If I just looked at our away form, I would say he's a poor manager. He's a bit of an enigma. But then most managers seem to be.

Paul Tran
24 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:37:21
He made a point of criticising the coaches, not Klopp.

I'm sure he was protecting/deflecting from the younger players and is now trying to create an "us against the world" mentality. Calvert-Lewin, Davies, Pennington and Holgate were young lads doing their best who will hopefully learn fast. I hope he bollocks the rest of them in private.

Ciaran nailed it: like all managers, he's honest when it suits him.

I certainly wasn't proud watching that today.

Kieran Kinsella
25 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:37:50
Klopps antics are the same as his old mate Wagner who got butted by Garry Monk. It's funny cause Wagner is German American and living in the US, people here remind me of Germans. It's like bravado –it's a big part of their ego and make up.

They act like spoilt kids maybe cause their Dads didn't hug them enough or something. Annoys the crap out of me. Glad Koeman concurs.

Paul Gallagher
26 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:41:50
I see the jokes are flying around already: Have you seen Lukaku? last spotted on 18 March 2017 – call Bill.

I hope Lukaku got a reality check today that he isn't as good as he think that he is. But he will probably blame Everton for today.

Minik Hansen
27 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:54:20
Few decent tackles from Everton players. Liverpool's goals aside and Lukaku's lack of chances, I enjoyed it.

A great start for a long career at Everton for Pennington. With Coleman missing, it was going to be different for us. I'm sure when the current line-up goes to the next game, it will be better. Mirallas and Valencia should have started, I hope they do against Man Utd.

Already looking forward to the next derby next season, the fear will hopefully be evaporated at that time. Onwards and upwards, COYB.

John Daley
28 Posted 01/04/2017 at 18:57:46
"Liverpool's goals aside and Lukaku's lack of chances, I enjoyed it. "

Apart from the goal and the couple of minutes before their second snapped everyone back to reality, what the hell was there to 'enjoy'?

Jim Bennings
29 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:07:53
Koeman and the players badly need to redeem themselves on Tuesday night with a far better team selection and a far better braver performance.

I've said for ages he needs to find a way to start causing opponents more worry when we are on our travels; too often in too many away games we look completely tepid.

I think he's got to start with Mirallas and Valencia at Old Trafford. Nothing against Calvert-Lewin but he's been out injured and he hasn't really looked the quickest or most mobile.

Antonio Valencia is quite busy and works hard, I would have went with him today with Lukaku. I'd have been been tempted to go with Lookman ahead of Calvert-Lewin today, I think Lookman would have been a bit sharper and zippy.

Koeman needs to get this sorted for Tuesday night otherwise the season ceases to exist from there on and it will just be a case of holding off West Brom for 7th place.

Jim Bennings
30 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:12:46
Perhaps if Koeman hadn't frozen out Aaron Lennon, he could have been deployed at right back, he has played there in the past and at least tracks back and works hard. Sadly though Lennon like all the wingers currently here seems to have been cast out.

Perhaps the manager should have compensated in January's transfer window for a potential injury for Seamus Coleman, considering we have supposedly got all these millions, just saying like.

Kieran Kinsella
31 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:22:00
Jim Bennings

I assume Lennon is injured. Koeman said yesterday he had 17 outfield players including Mo Besic. 16 were involved today and Mo makes 17.

Kieran Kinsella
32 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:23:55
Minik

Whatever you're drinking, I'll have one!!!

Jim Bennings
33 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:27:24
Kieran,

Yes,maybe Lennon is injured; I'm not sure because he's hardly figured.

I don't think he's a great player, Lennon, but to be fair he was in bang good form this time last year and could always be relied upon to put a shift in and contributed quite a few goals too.

Koeman signed Bolasie but it appears that he has decided now he doesn't like wingers: Deulofeu farmed out, McGeady not in plans, Mirallas in and out, and Lennon frozen out all season.

Andrew Keatley
34 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:32:58
Proud of that?

I was mostly embarrassed.

Eamonn Long
35 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:34:32
Master tactician... my arse!
Hasan Noor
36 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:38:41
I like Ronal Koeman. He chose the wrong team today..too many kids... that's why we played poorly. Mirallas and Barry should have started and Barkley play deeper as he was clearly ineffective near the top end.

Lukaku hardly got any service so don't think we should be too harsh in him. I think if Barkley is having a stinker, either put him on the wing or deeper but keep him playing as you never know what he might pull out of the bag.

Koeman just picked an uncompetitive team today. If we had all our players including that fool McCarthy we would have been a lot better. Need to fix things up for Tuesday.

Paul A Smith
37 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:41:54
I am tired of narratives. Graeme Souness after the game stated Barkley's decision-making was poor? Absolute nonsense. His passing was poor but when he is trying to thread a pass to Lukaku, how is that a poor decision?

Later in the game he dwelled on the ball a bit too often but again they chose the wrong words to describe a Barkley performance.

Then there is Coutinho. I may be totally evil toward the reds here but was his performance what they said it was? Over-hyped I thought and although his finish was great in football terms, I didn't see a great deal of creating from him either.

Sometimes our fans forget that sky are selling their commentary to a massive red customer base and Gary Neville couldn't stop purring about Coutinho throughout right until he was subbed yet again. Do they mention how often he is subbed?

Neville and Co are looking to be in a job for life and they play the role great but don't fall for all their praise of the darling clubs. Just listen to Tony Gayle talk about the Kopites. He's West Ham through and through but if you heard him talk football for the first time you wouldn't know.

We were dreadful today, no excuse, but I am not swallowing absolute nonsense from so called experts who are simply keeping their big customer base happy. I know what a world class performance is and I have seen many a red player put better derbies in than anyone we seen today. Don't let them hype their favourites against ours because it's exactly what they want.

And lastly, Carragher again talking about Mentality because he know's the same view can be taken next time around. I seen us trying to have a go but the line-up and system didn't suit the performance we needed. Hardly a mental problem, just poor play.

Michael Kenrick
38 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:46:55
A few poorly timed tackles and challenges for 50-50 balls in the heat of a local derby where our players are being outclassed – and yet so many are screaming for red cards?

All a bit silly. Take Barkley's 'tackle' on Lovren... the ball was in Barkley's possession but he overplays it by a fraction and feels he has to do a little more to retain it, while Lovren sees his chance and gets his foot in first, Ross treads on it. Yellow card was harsh but he had fouled earlier. The reaction is way out of proportion.

Could have broken his leg? I don't think so. Yes, that happened last weekend... but it is extremely rare. And what I attempted to show then was that it took a unique element in the tackle – Coleman kicking Taylor's leg – to actually sustain the break.

Is there a risk that any tackle could end in a broken leg? Yes, there's a chance... a very small chance. The stats show it's an extremely rare event, despite the ingredients being there in every game. The ridiculous over-reaction to Barkley's effort in this case makes no sense. Just reds like Klopp and his sycophants bleating.

Koeman is spot on with his comments re Klopp. It made me proud to hear someone finally call out this utter clown.

Paul A Smith
39 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:48:09
After Jagielka looking back to his best last week, I fancied him an Williams to form a solid base for us today.

On Thursday night, my mate called me and said if we play 3 centre-backs I think we'll be saying Jagielka should have been the middle one or Jagielka should be the right side, it'll be that type of game.

How bad is it when an electrician can see what is likely to happen if we mess with the system we have played well in. Ah well....

Bjoern Haall
41 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:53:40
I agree with Koeman's view of Klopp. He was the same in our last meeting.

I don't agree with the proud thing though. Rom and Barkley playing for themselves and Williams and Jags not playing cool enough. The others were just okay and you need to do better than okay week in week out to compete.

Liverpool were almost as bad but had the excellent Coutinho and Lovren and that was the difference today.

Ian Riley
42 Posted 01/04/2017 at 19:57:51
Today's performance and lying 7th in the league gives Koeman some more time. No, he is not under that pressure yet... but the same performance next season – fans won't be so forgiving on here.
Mike Berry
43 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:01:30
Ron, who I really like... got it wrong again (like Spurs). We simply, cant play five at the back especially when two are novices and never played the system, and against Liverpool at Anfield?

No support for the player who scores when he is given chances, and today shows why he has got itchy feet!

Davies should have stayed on and Calvert-Lewin subbed for Super Kev far earlier.

Enough said.

Mark Wilson
44 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:02:35
I cannot believe this. "Proud"? He has to be joking. Proud? Of that utter rubbish? Shamed again, and he calls that a performance to be proud of?

I don't care if he thinks he's protecting the young players; he's got this wrong and has totally mis-read the mood of our fans. We watched that horrible capitulation.

Here's the thing. Those young players need no protection. They froze, they made schoolboy standard errors and yes, they were let down by the so called senior players.

But pretending they were part of a performance to be proud of? No, that's not the way to go after that steaming pile of shit.

Jamie Crowley
45 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:17:43
Clearly in the minority, I echo the manager's sentiments.

We have class. That cheerleading bafoon with his pathetic, over-the-top antics shows zero class. The horse-toothed one is a douche.

You don't see (or shouldn't) an Everton manager running up and down the touchline acting like a cheering or spoiled 6-year-old boy.

The point is we don't do that.

And that's why I love us and the can just Fuck Off!!!

Exhale...

Klopp is an embarrassing child who was never disciplined.

Mark Wilson
46 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:35:55
Jamie, (#45) I've no problem with sticking it to that smug bastard Klopp or showing O'Neill and Keane to be the morons they are. But I've no time anymore for Everton managers pretending that it's acceptable for such sub-standard performances to be repeated when it matters most.

It's one thing not to turn up against Spurs when it really mattered, but quite another to again embarrass ourselves against the RedShite.

It is not helping anyone to lie thinking he's protecting kids. He isn't. They hopefully will know, or have been told by others, that some stank the place out. They didn't do it deliberately and hopefully they will learn and I think we will respect them for it. But enough is enough.

We cannot go on just seeing young and older freeze against the better teams above us. We have to be clear that it's nothing to be proud of, whatever the excuses around injuries and inexperience.

I know it sounds harsh but this rubbish has gone on for too long. We will start again, pray for something better at Old Trafford, hope we can hang on to 7th & bloody Leicester don't win the Champions League. At least it's a step up from two years of Martinez, even if a stretch to start saying you made us proud.

Darren Hind
47 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:40:48
Jamie,

The RedShite have been refereeing derby matches for about 40 years. Klopp was simply carrying on the tradition.

We have to ditch this too-much-class, dignified, nice guy stuff. It's only ever brought misery and pain.

Peter Carpenter
48 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:52:13
Who is the coach Koeman is complaining about? Is it the one who looks like Richard III?

And while we're at it, has anyone noticed the resemblance between Jordan Henderson and the kid who plays the banjo in Deliverance?

John Pierce
49 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:55:52
Koeman, rightly or wrongly, tried pitching at Klopp to hide his own and his team's flawed performance Perhaps he feels he can justify his lazy, insincere comments as a blanket to shield the younger players.

Let's be fair – Klopp hadn't nothing he didn't have a right to complain about. Everton were guilty of some obscene tackles, and it's not 'just football' as Ronnie laa says. Barkley in particular was cowardly.

To my mind, yet more excuses and bluster from Koeman trying to cover up a pitiful away record. No progress there. As bad as Burnley, Watford or Bournemouth away.

Nauseatingly predictable.

Russ Quinlan
50 Posted 01/04/2017 at 20:57:54
I don't agree with his comments but maybe just a smokescreen, hopefully!<>As for some comments here and other threads about the team seplection, I actually don't think he had much choice. Kev had been all the way over to Russia last week and played and we all know about the injuries.

Before the game a lot on here were calling for Holgate to cover for Seamus, then when he does he gets slagged!< >We have also all been screaming for 'youth' to be given a chance, especially those in the U23s and then when they do (because we are seriously short of experienced players) they also get shot down.

I am sure Pennington is worth his place but he had no support from Jags or Williams, who I am afraid is just not good enough (despite me thinking he was a good signing at the time).

Also, before the game, loads were saying 'Don't play Barry' and then after the game its all' why was Barry not playing' !! Come on, guys – you can't have it both ways!

This is Koeman's first real big job and he hasn't had a full season yet, so far in 2017 nobody could complain about the results, today though, and against Spuds, we were exposed and shown that the squad isn't good enough, yet, but Klippety has had 3 windows to improve his team and lots of koppites still think he hasn't the squad to push higher than they are so Koeman is a long was behind with his project.

I hate hate hate getting beaten over there like any Bluenose does, but we are still recovering from Bobby Brownshoes but the signs are there things are slowly improving. I think when he left and Koeman came in, given the state we were in most of us would have settled for 7th and Europe, unless we seriously blow up we should get that goal which should be a platform to built next season and beyond.

We cant seriously think we will suddenly be top 4 contenders after the last few seasons, I hate to say it but we will have to be patient (which I am not known for, just ask the wife!) and hope that the Project keeps improving.

No doubt we will have more days like this along the way but as long as the general trend is upwards that is the main thing.

COYB !!

Stan Schofield
51 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:05:31
Russ, spot on, it's the general trend that matters. And really, the friction between the managers is not important; what is important is the gradual improvement we've seen as evidenced by the overall results so far in 2017.
Peter Mills
52 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:10:17
Michael (#38), you probably wrote the TW Disclaimer (below) which asks for posters to treat each other with dignity and respect, I am sure you are very familiar with it.

Will you please apply it to people who disagree with your (to my mind) rather relaxed view of what constitutes a dirty tackle? I, and others, who believe the tackle on Seamus and some of those that were committed by our own players today were reckless, are not "locked in" (last week) or "a bit silly" (this week). We just don't like rash challenges.

Mike Green
53 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:15:32
Correct, Jamie Crowley (#45) – and the beauty of it all is its not natural, it's all quite transparently choreographed. If I saw my lad playing on a Sunday punching the air like Klopp does I'd have him hauled off.

Reds will be giving it "WTF?!" to Koeman's comments as much as most posters on this thread, which to be honest is exactly as I'd like it given the circumstances.

We had a lot of lads out there today with very little experience at this level, never mind this kind of game, and they will have learned from it.

Ron probably knows we're in for a rough ride until the end of the season and this is his way of trying to keep our heads above water until the end. The last thing we need with a load of youngsters coming in is knocking their belief and saying to the world after getting cruised past in a derby how crap they were (and their senior colleagues) because that, sure as eggs are eggs, will do it.

We've got Man Utd at home in the week – maybe he's trying to keep morale afloat before we go in on that?

Oliver Molloy
54 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:17:20
Michael @ 38,

Disagree completely. It was indeed Lovren's lower shin / leg that Barkley made contact with and yes we have all seen serious injuries from that type of late challenge.

Given that Barkley had been late on a couple of occasions prior to this, he got off lightly in my opinion.

Mike Green
55 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:19:13
To be fair – when it comes to tackling, Barkley makes Paul Scholes look like Paulo Maldini.
Ian Horan
56 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:28:01
Now I have calmed down, firstly let's forget we lost to the RS for a minute. We dropped 3 points, end of. Liverpool beating us still only gives them.3 points for the win.

The youngsters played with fear, Pennington allowing Coutinho on to his right foot was always like giving them a present. Ross should have got a red – if that was the other way round, we would be up in arms. Robles was at fault with Williams for the third. Koeman had the balls to out Klopp.

Finally what benefit would it be to stand up and say how poor we were? That would only derail us keeping WBA at bay for the Europa League..

Paul Gallagher
57 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:30:29
I read a stat that makes our Dderby record even more pathetic, Blackpool have won at Anfield in 2010-11 Season, and they are now in the 4th tier of English football.
John Pierce
58 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:33:16
Michael, you are as far removed from reality as Koeman was today or Martinez was last year.

'All a bit Silly'? 50/50s? Ross overstretched on a ball he knew he had no chance of getting. A petulant reaction to his poor control.

Red card all day long, no excuses and it's not his first challenge in this fixture. Cowardly, inexcusable.

Nigel Johnson
59 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:36:43
Koeman has a massive job on his hands in the summer. Lukaku staying or going? Barkley staying or going?

I think players that need replacing are Barry, Funes Mori, Stekelenburg, Jagielka, Lennon, McCarthy, Valenica so looking at possibly replacing between 8-9 players. Today has simply shown that, to be a top 4 club, you need your big players to turn up to big matches and put in big performances.

Lukaku has the club in his hands – any other player would be dropped by the Manager after that poor performance but Lukaku knows that will never happen. He has made it clear that he doesn't see himself here next season.

If Everton want to play in Europe next season, the next two matches are a must-win.

John Daley
60 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:44:35
"You don't see (or shouldn't) an Everton manager running up and down the touchline acting like a cheering or spoiled 6-year-old boy."

Yet, you can catch him in front of the camera chuckling away to himself like a smug kid when reminded about the fine tweet he fired off the night before a big game.

'Class' that. I half expected him to say "Flamed!" before doing an exaggerated mic drop and mooching off.

Klopp's 'convulsing six foot cock undergoing electro-shock-therapy' schtick may get old real quick, but at least he didn't spend the week leading up to the derby getting embroiled in a distracting public argument that descended into petty point-scoring.

Anthony Hawkins
61 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:45:33
Jumping on the back of #50, Russ: what this season has shown is the squad doesn't have the strength in depth for a top 4 slot. The back four needs a revamp and when the first 11 are removed it's shown there's no backup ready yet.
Grant Rorrison
62 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:48:32
Depressingly predictable performance and outcome. Every time we have something to play for, we always produce this kind of display. Doesn't matter who the manager is.

We don't have the talent, the resolve or the nous to win these matches or achieve anything beyond being the best of the worst.

We desperately need an influx of genuine, world class talent and some players that know how to get the job done when it matters – even if they have no right to.

Jamie Crowley
63 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:52:05
Darren,

I have to bow to your experience and opinion with the benefit of years behind you. I pale in comparison and we both know that.

I would still, as Mike Green points out, be a Club that conducts itself with dignity and not some phony-baloney look at me sideline antic fucktard.

They should be embarrassed. They won't be... At the end of the day, losing Seamus and not having Schneids was too much.

To Mark Wilson's comments I'd also echo Mr Green. We had on the pitch for a derby at Mordor:

Calvert-Lewin, Holgate, Pennington, and Davies. At half-time we had a bottle feeding FFS!

I love those kids. They'll come good. But that was one fucking big ask today.

So I, like Koeman, am proud.

But disappointed too.

Colin Hughes
64 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:53:31
Anybody who thinks it will be any different at Old Trafford on Tuesday needs their head seeing to. Man Utd have drew 8 home games this so but as in today against WBA they create a bagful of chances just couldn't turn it into goals.

Laws of averages say they won't draw again and, as we don't do wins at big grounds, you can put your life savings on Mourinho getting a response from them with a comfortable win. Watch this space.

Mike Green
65 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:54:52
Is that 1-0 John Daley? I'm not sure. Maybe this point scoring thing is catching on after all...
Seamus McCrudden
67 Posted 01/04/2017 at 21:56:40
Michael, I agree 100%.
Jamie Crowley
68 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:01:54
John Daley -

I have a retort, but there's no way I'm going to bother.

Getting into a match of wits with John Daley is like taking a knife to a gunfight.

I'll stand by my comment and assertions and leave it at that.

I will say, however, I'm sick to the teeth of losing to those fuckers.

It's just gotta stop.

Mike Green
69 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:05:32
Jamie - these were the ages of our starting line up in descending order today

34, 32, 32, (all defenders), 26 (GK), 26, 23, 23, 22, 20, 20, 18.

So – three players over the hill, two at their peak (the keeper might need a bit more) and 6 who are well off it.

If you put it in formation (assuming 5 at the back):

26
20 - 34 - 22 - 32 - 32
26 - 18
23 - 23 - 20

The average age ahead of our back line was 22.

Stan Schofield
70 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:10:15
Anthony @61: We are top-4 for home results, but mid-table for away results. The away form is so predictable that there has to be a problem with Koeman's away tactics that can be solved. He needs to set the tactics to win, like at home.

We clearly have the strength in depth to get top-4 home results, so it seems to me that we should have the strength in depth to get similar away results, provided we have a winning mentality away. The home results cannot tell a lie, surely?

Mike Green
71 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:11:11
Coleman and Schneiderlin – 28 and 27. Badly missed today.
Neil Wood
72 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:11:28
It wasn't the game to bring Pennington in. He could of easily played Holgate in the middle and Kenny at right back.

Poor showing and Lukaku should be dropped. It's the only way to show some players.

Shane Corcoran
73 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:18:51
Koeman tweeting about to O'Neill last night/this morning is a bit bizarre. I've been right in the middle of the argument but even I'm sick of it. Surely he had better things to be at like picking a team and formation to get at least a point.

As Neville kept saying in commentary. Barkley and Calvert-Lewin were too wide when we didn't have the ball and Liverpool just played through. I also noticed, on the telly, that the full-backs often don't know which player/area to cover in that 3-4-3 formation.

And for Koeman to pick out the antics of Klopp also makes me question where his head's at. Is that what's uppermost in his mind after a performance like that?

We were well and truly put in our box today, just like we were against Spurs. Considering the surgery required in the summer, it's amazing we're 7th.

Joel's "effort" for the last goal was the last straw for me with him. I'd been happy for him getting his place and he often plays well but you can't have a 'keeper pull that type of shite every now and again.

Coleman's place needs replacing and Baines is getting old. I'm going to stop there because there really isn't a position on the field that doesn't need strengthening.

Oh, and Gueye really isn't as good as we thought he was, is he?

Jerome Shields
74 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:24:04
Very disappointing, but it's what I expected. This Manager is no better than what we had in the previous two Managers.

I don't expect us to improve next season. We won't be challenging for a top 5 finish. We are only a 6th or 7th finish, with some luck.

The teams above us can bank on beating us. I won't be watching any games, just keep in touch with how we are doing. I will give all the bullshit press releases a miss.

Jermaine Jennings
75 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:27:55
Koeman's comments were a joke. We were terrible today and, even though the team as a whole were crap and negative, there were a lot of players who weren't up to it.

Calvert-Lewin should have come off at half-time; why Mirallas or Lookman don't start instead of him is a joke. Koeman's tactics away from home are terrible and he bottles it every away game.

Williams has been awful since the Spurs game and should have been dropped; instead, he drips Funes Mori... Jagielka has clearly gone and looks overweight but, with no cover, what can we do...

Pennington should have been right wing back with Holgate (who looked tired after his U21 game) centre-back and Jagielka should have been playing deep centre-half... controlling, dropping deep.

Liam Scott
76 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:43:11
There were a few positives today: Koeman showing faith in the youth players whilst we were lacking options, and Pennington getting his first goal for the club. That's it.

Today was one of the most embarrassing, spineless and inept performances I've ever seen from this club. I wasn't even a year old when we last won at Anfield and it doesn't look like that's going to change any time soon.

Lukaku wasn't arsed today; there was a point in the late stages of the game where Mirallas went on a run and fired a shot into the stands. If Rom had just run when the two centre backs separated, he was clean through. Instead, he just stood still, leaving Kev with no option other than to shoot.

I feel sorry for Pennington getting hugely blamed for the second goal, when if Gana had attempted a better tackle than a three-year-old learning to kick a ball for the first time a few seconds earlier, he wouldn't have forced us into that situation.

Our biggest problem is our mentality. For too many years we've seen ourselves as 'Plucky Little Everton', best summed out by Mr Moyes and his 'knives to a gunfight'. That is fucking ridiculous.

We have the fourth-most league titles in the country, maybe it's time we fucking act like it. We go to any big ground and we capitulate with one exception: Manchester City.

We used to always beat Man City home and away even after they came into money and that only changed in recent years when they signed world class players. Even then, we still won 4-0 this season.

It's because we were always above them, we have no inferiority complex with them like we do with Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool.

We need to start acting like a big club, we shouldn't be arguing over ٠ million for our Number 1 transfer target. We shouldn't be failing to bring players into the club because we didn't try. We shouldn't have contract uncertainty over our best players, Barkley was awful today, but since January he's been brilliant and we don't want that Barkley lining up against us in a few years. And we certainly shouldn't have some away records we have. 19 years at Anfield, 20+ years at Stamford Bridge.

There's no point us having a big, shiny, new stadium if we don't act like a club that will deserve to fill it.

Mike Green
77 Posted 01/04/2017 at 22:44:40
Shane – you're not in the middle of the argument; Koeman is.

Maybe he's a still a little bit ticked off that one of his most important players has been crippled and another injured against his wishes under the stewardship of two blokes who clearly are only interested in their own agenda, don't give a fuck about his, and have bad-mouthed him since he came in about the relationship we have as a club with them. (We don't seem to have the same sort of issues with all the other International coaches our players play for.)

So - given you and I are a lifetime away on the periphery and we're on social media about it and he's right in the middle of the thing then if he wants to get involved he's every right to. I imagine he can multi-task well enough to handle that as he wishes and what he needed to do today without much problem.

Andy Ellis
78 Posted 01/04/2017 at 23:04:32
Stan (#51), hopefully we might have won there again by 2917! Bad day for Koeman, got everything wrong today, on and off the pitch.
Jim Bennings
79 Posted 01/04/2017 at 23:07:01
Watched the goals again.

How shocking was Robles's positioning for the first and third goals????

Really poor keeper.

I'm so shocked we never went after Joe Hart in the summer... top class vocal goalkeeper, big character.

Kieran Kinsella
80 Posted 01/04/2017 at 23:25:03
Jim Bennings,

I agree. People saying "he had no chance" are missing the point about positioning. If he decided to take a nap by the corner flag you could say "he had no chance" if a shot came in. This is no different. He wanders aimlessly about in the box so he is not in a position to react to a shot.

John Daley
81 Posted 01/04/2017 at 23:42:37
Jamie @68,

I wasn't aiming a shot at you personally but rather the constant, now seemingly deep-rooted, need to try and hold ourselves up as being somehow 'better' in defeat, like it's some kind of consolation for being crap for the best part of three decades. 

Take Koeman and Klopp. What is considered 'class' or 'crass' amongst supporters, when it comes to a manager's behaviour, can't help but be coloured by which dugout they're currently dumping their arse in. 

If Everton had a moderately successful manager hurling himself to his knees and skidding along the turf when someone tucked home a winner, I guarantee people on here would be lapping it up and praising his 'passion'. If he was regularly seen haranguing the 63rd official on the side-line we'd be saying 'about time we had a gaffer take no shit and get right in their face, instead of meekly accepting every call'. 

If they had a more stoic reserved type who stood there motionless, just staring straight ahead, we'd be calling him a 'dour, characterless twat' or a 'potential serial-killer/slop-badger'.

 If their manager came out and whinged about the touchline behaviour of our boss after we just handed them a beating, we'd be saying he was a 'sore loser' or trying to deflect attention away from his own sides deficiencies on the day. If our manager then refused to respond in kind, we'd be back to the cries of 'it's because we've got class and they haven't'

It's meaningless.

I'd just rather have the 3 points and then ruthlessly rub their fucking noses in it, in the most classless way possible.

Link

Shane Corcoran
82 Posted 02/04/2017 at 00:09:20
Mike, #77, why so touchy?

Of course I'm not in the middle of it as you described it. I meant on ToffeeWeb. What else could I possibly have meant?

Sure, he should be able to multi-task, although by the way his team was set up you'd wonder.

The point is, that close to a big game he should be focused on the game in hand.

From a PR point of view he should be aware that a moaning prick like myself, and others, are likely to jump on his and O'Neill's persistent tit-for-tat argument as childish, especially when he takes to twitter to air his views.

As for your rant about the injuries; McCarthy, one of his most important players? We truly are fucked if that's the case.

I think Coleman is injured against everyone's wishes but there was no suggestion he shouldn't have played last week.

And why would O'Neill give a shit about Everton anyway? Does Koeman give a shit about Ireland? Of course not.

Ernie Baywood
83 Posted 02/04/2017 at 00:17:27
I've never bought into the "refreshing honesty" thing with Koeman. All that means is that he said things that YOU wanted to hear.

I haven't seen anything to suggest he's more honest than any other manager. He's just got less tact.

I called him a conman early in the season and nothing has changed my mind. He's happy to fail unless he's had a fortune to spend. He takes no responsibility for this team. He's worse than Moyes for convincing people to accept mediocrity.

Mike Green
84 Posted 02/04/2017 at 00:48:57
You are absolutely right, John Daley – and maybe were so used to losing the battle on the pitch were resorting to arguing who won the argument off the pitch. It's all we've got at the moment. We don't even have bad officiating to fall back on, it's that bad.

I'm 44 now. The last time we won at Anfield I was 26. Tom Davies was 15 months old.

I remember it well because it was two days after I got married, the day we flew to Greece on honeymoon. So I can count my wedding anniversaries by the last time we won at Anfield.

Back then, we were renting a one bedroom flat, experts were predicting an IT apocalypse, Walkman's and floppy discs were the norm and nothing was more reassuringly exotic than going down to Blockbusters to hire a video for a Friday night. It would be a further 8 years before we banned smoking in pubs – which was a decade ago.

Since then we've bought a house and cleared a mortgage, had two kids, one of whom is in secondary school, the other is close, the country has been embroiled in one of the longest conflicts in its history, we've voted to leave the European Union and there's been a referendum on the break up of the Union to go with it, had a recession, experienced 9/11 and experienced the catastrophes that have panned out after it and thousands of other milestones and events in between.

But we – one of the most decorated clubs in English Football – can't get a team together in that time that can get a three points from Anfield is a complete fucking disgrace.

I've filled two prams in that time, the youngest of whom wears his Everton kit with total pride whilst his mates run around him in U10s training in their Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City tops. He watches a game like me and you and will shout out "shoot", "touch", "give it" and "foul ref" but was born 6 years after the last time we won at Anfield. He's got 3 girlfriends FFS, which I've explained to him will only end badly but fuck me at least the boy's trying.

So – taking all of that into account, our record is shameful. Its not as if Liverpool are that fucking good!

Get your shit together Everton. Grow Up.

Kieran Kinsella
85 Posted 02/04/2017 at 00:51:30
Shane,

I didn't see the tweet until you mentioned it but you have a point. He has a Mr Cool persona going back to when he pummeled David Platt but that tweet shows he can get emotionally side-tracked. The night before the derby, O'Neill and Twitter should be the furthest thing from his mind.

Mike Green
86 Posted 02/04/2017 at 00:54:18
Shane – Coleman's one of our most important players, not McCarthy.

I'm not touchy, I just don't like hypocrisy.

Ben Howard
87 Posted 02/04/2017 at 01:18:41
Initially livid at the result, I've taken some time out to calm down and assess the situation. Admittedly I've also had a lot to drink but...

I think we were outplayed. I hear a lot (most seasons) that 'this is the worst Liverpool team for years' and I get pulled along and mostly think it too. Why?

They're currently above us and have had some great results against the bigger teams. They're being applauded for their style and energy and Klopp's impression on the squad is probably starting to bear fruit after a time at the helm. They're a good team.

Hell, Brendan is generally considered a failure by Liverpool fans, and a laughing stock by us, but he managed 2nd and also managed one of the world's fearsome strikers to superstardom. His 'shit' teams also embarrassed us.

I'm not blowing smoke up their arses and it kills me to say it but they were just better today – but they have been over a lengthy period of time. And they've always got the better of us in the derby.

I have no problem with Koeman's assessment. We were made to look shit by a better team. He knows that. But he also knows we were patched up. Seamus and Morgan were a huge miss. He took a gamble that our young team would gel and the passion would see us through. It could have been a shock to the opposition and on another day our first mistake would not have led to their first goal.

Our young local player scores and we're right back in it. Another mistake and our renewed optimism is shattered. 2nd half and we have the better possession and a massive improvement, another mistake and it's 3.

Koeman sees all this and sees commitment from his players, a better team, 100% effort and some bad luck That's how I see it now and I also felt proud.

Mike Green
88 Posted 02/04/2017 at 01:52:24
And – I weighed 9 stone then, I now weigh 14.

If I can gain 5 stone in that time, the least we can go do is earn 3 points.

James Watts
89 Posted 02/04/2017 at 01:52:42
Well, I've had a sleep since the game and have managed to calm down a bit.

My thoughts:

i) Was very happy, delighted in fact ,with the team selection and shape before kick off.

ii) My delight turned to anguish after 20 minutes as could see Pennington is not ready and Calvert-Lewin looked out of his depth. I expected a 30 min sub we've seen before. It didn't come.

iii) My anguish turned into horror after half time when Koeman kept the same team and shape, seemingly blind to what he had seen.

iv) My horror turned into utter despair that no changes were made until we went 3-1 down.

v) My utter despair turned into giggles (what else can you do but laugh?) when Calvert-Lewin was left on the pitch until after 80 mins, despite him and Lukaku trying to win the 'i can touch the ball less than you' contest.

vi) My giggles turned into raised eyebrows and several 'seriously, what the fuck!!!' shouts when I hear Koeman's post match presser.

Koeman, how can you be proud of that weak arse team who showed zero fight or application? Utter ridiculous Martinez-esque comments.

I tell you what you should have said:

"I selected some young lads who hadn't played too much but it didn't work on this occasion. I left my change of tactics much too late along with my subs.

"Barkley's tackle was reckless, but he is dumb as fuck and his decision-making is useless 99% of the time anyway. Lukaku will keep the same shirt for next week as he didn't even run today so it has no sweat on it. Oh and the apprentice who normally cleans his boots can get the day off.

"Those fuckwits across the park were the better side, my team were shite for most of it, and not for the first time, they bottled it but then again I didn't help one tiny bit with anything I did – I apologise to the fans."

Grrrr.... Fucking dreadful!!!!!! Useless arseholes.

David Israel
90 Posted 02/04/2017 at 01:55:46
A few times this season, especially since the New Year, I've had dreams of grandeur, of the good old days returning, and so on. And then we go to places like White Hart Lane and the Dark Side, and I wake up with a start.

There is still a huge job to be done.

Jonathan Miller
91 Posted 02/04/2017 at 01:58:24
Just a few thoughts...

Why did Can make 7 fouls before being booked? The yellow he did get if he caught Gana (I think who saw it coming and swerved it) would have been red?

Can gets fouled and rolls round like he had a broken leg then gets up and carries on like nothing happened?

Pennington should have been hooked at half-time? Holgate surely should have been in the back three that was seriously lacking pace.

What was Robles doing for the third?

Where's Lennon?

All our crosses in to the box and no end product?

Four teenagers starting in a derby?

I could go on all night...

Mike Green
92 Posted 02/04/2017 at 02:31:18
Jonathan - Can is a prize cunt. Limited footballer but a cunt "par excellence".

In his mother tongue he is a "Preis Möse", which I think might mean "Prime Cunt".

Jamie Crowley
93 Posted 02/04/2017 at 06:17:00
Daley @ 81 -

That type of response is exactly why I refuse to "get into it" with long-time posters like you I respect.

Too intelligent. Too on the mark.

It IS ABSOLUTELY a question of perspective. Yes, you'd get responses "the other way" if we'd have won 4-0 and our gaffer was "showing passion" acting the fool, going nuts with each goal; all the while we decry the "dour one" who sits stone-faced watching no matter how the game goes...

Overall I want dignity. I don't want a showboat manager acting the cheerleader jumping up and down - cue the Pom-pons.

I, like you, just want a win.

And what truly kills me - and I mean this sincerely,,,

TW can change your life if you aren't a cradle-born Blue. You read these posts and see the passion. The want and desire to rise to the top from SO MANY PEOPLE.

And when you see this game that means SO MUCH to those who have lived it, and you take on their mantle - you feel their hopes, pains, desires... you want it so bad.

Not only for yourself but for THEM. The true, true Blues who have been there their whole lives. It's part of their fabric and being.

You, and I mean myself as an outsider, become a supporter of the team - but more importantly a supporter of the SUPPORTERS - the fans you read and see their contributions and how they'd give their spleen to rise to the top again...

When the pain hits and you lose to THEM...

At least, at the very least...

You lose with DIGNITY. CLASS.

And THAT, my dear John, is SOMETHING.

Class, dignity, do it right. Don't jump up and down on the touch line like a four-eyed baboon.

In the name of Dixie, Ball, and the Holy Southall. Amen.

Ben Dyke
94 Posted 02/04/2017 at 07:32:50
There really isn't a great deal to be pleased about from yesterday's match.

It's infuriating to see Mirallas come on and play like that for just 10 minutes. He's the kind of narky, skillful player that's perfect for derbies. He's so egotistical in a way that means he has no respect and just plays as he always does. He's also up for the fight. So why didn't we start him or bring him on much earlier! Infuriating! Valencia plays with energy too so why not start him!

We played poorly in the midfield and lacked composure. Why not start with Barry and take him off after 60 when we've established hopefully a foothold.

I could go on. That's what's so frustrating about yesterday, not just the stupid result which is crushing enough. I hate losing to them. Just hate it.

I've ignored every text and social media mention by my jovial RS friends and family but I'm just so tired of their derby dominance all my life pretty much and I'm 43!

Jim Bennings
95 Posted 02/04/2017 at 07:37:36
I agree, Kieran.

Robles wandering on the first goal leaving the virtual whole goal to his left was inviting Mane to put the ball in that corner, it was rank amateur.

The third goal looks worse every time you see it from the replays shown down the middle, where the hell is he going?? Why is he wandering away before Origi has struck what was a very preventable shot even for a 10-year-old??

No way would you have seen a Neville Southall or Nigel Martyn concede a schoolboy goal like that.

I'm disappointed that what with the millions we had last summer we didn't rectify certain positions of weakness and I'll be even more disappointed this summer if all we do is sign more defensive midfield options.

We are crying out for a top goalkeeper, commanding keeper, a commanding central defender with pace is imperative.

A substitute or replacement right-back depending on Coleman's progression.

I think Baines needs replacing at some point, at nearly 33 his best years are now gone and he's not going to get any better now.

Absolute necessity that we find a genuine creative central midfielder, and no I do not sit looking at Opta indexes and feel satisfied that Barkley is that answer; watching Everton every week and I know Barkley is not the footballing brain that we need desperately, we haven't had one since the Arteta days . This is where Steve Walsh needs to earn his crust.

Games like yesterday, Spurs, Chelsea in November, and our basic ineptitude away from home all season tells us there's still so much work to be done yet.

I do think Koeman needs to make life easier for himself in certain games too by being a bit more savvy, he had chances at half-time to change that game as well as beforehand but made no impact.

Tuesday will tell us if anything has been worked on.

Ray Mutch
96 Posted 02/04/2017 at 07:41:39
Changed formation at Chelsea -– lost.
Ditto Tottenham. Ditto Redshite. All Ronald's fault.

It'd be nice just to give them a game.

Don't blame Pennington without blaming Gana for those nothing tackles on Cortina. We should've started with Valencia instead of Calvert-Lewin.

Even if we spend 𧴜m in Summer, we still won't win at their dump.
Ian Jones
97 Posted 02/04/2017 at 07:43:43
Mike @ 84. I didn't see the game live and only 5 mins of highlights but I think your post about your life since Everton last won at Anfield is terrific. A really interesting read.

Got me thinking what's happened to me in the same period – not as interesting or as productive .let's hope we don't have to wait as long for a win. On the upside, we can hear how your grand children are getting on. :)

Kenny Smith
98 Posted 02/04/2017 at 07:46:16
We've got another big game on Tuesday; it's unlikely the team will train properly in between. Maybe Koeman doesn't want to crush the players as no doubt we ll take an identical squad.

He must of seen that we were not good enough, the score line showed that, never mind the individual performances. Man Utd like the RS are there for the taking. Footballs a game of opinions, my opinion differs greatly from Koeman's but if he is trying to keep a lid on it I can see why.

There's no doubt we need a keeper, 2 centre-halves and a number 10 at least. Plus although we've got rid of the fringe players in the last window it's now time to replace most of our first team players with better players.

On another note, you have to question why Deulofeu was allowed to leave when Barkley, who they must see everyday, is so poor. We were crying out for someone who could stretch them yesterday and make them play on the back foot. Surely it's time to play Lookman and Mirallas with Lukaku.

I'm still with Koeman and think he ll get it right but it's a bigger job than we thought, and failing against a poor RS side in that manner showed it, despite his post-match interview.

Jim Bennings
99 Posted 02/04/2017 at 08:11:11
Kenny

You do wonder why Koeman allowed Deulofeu to leave on loan. I could maybe understand if we got a big fee but why on loan and when he knew Bolasie was gone? Lennon obviously out of favour.

I'm not sure I'm keen on no wingers in away games, I saw us at Middlesbrough, Stoke, yesterday and various others and frankly we look very narrow, Lukaku drifting out wide to cross the ball himself.

Games like yesterday could have been perfect for a Deulofeu: okay he's erratic, but his direct nature and pace gave sides something to think about, there was never any shape yesterday.

I'd have had Lookman or Valencia ahead of Calvert-Lewin but first choice would have been Mirallas regardless of him playing for Belgium; I'd have given him the first hour.

Jerome Shields
100 Posted 02/04/2017 at 08:21:03
The problem we have is that the manager is that bad that some of the players we have will be looking away and transferable players won't want to join us.
Trevor Peers
101 Posted 02/04/2017 at 08:38:03
I sometimes wonder if Klopp has mental health issues after witnessing his behaviour in the technical area. Koeman has won most of the top honours in the game and always behaves like an adult, unlike the RS crew who look out of control, desperate and dangerous.

No mention of their awful behaviour in the media, I notice; if that was Everton we'd be prosecuted for inciting a riot but for the RedShite it's okay!

Is it too much to ask them to act with a little bit of dignity? Pathetic and worrying... one day it will turn ugly.

Jim Bennings
102 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:04:48
Trevor,

Klopp is not our problem, I'm not really interested in his antics, we know he's eccentric but the fact is he's done a number on Everton three times now in a year and sometimes, as much as I think Koeman has done well, I wish he'd be a little less laid back and get a bit more bouncy like Klopp.

We were poor and if our players were on the receiving end of the tackles made by Barkley and Williams then we'd be slating them too. We were dross, we've been done over again in what has now become the most one sided derby match in the Premier League.

Klopp is not our concern. I'm far more concerned with:

"Has Koeman and the players learned anything from yesterday in time for Tuesday?"

"Why didn't we learn after the Spurs game last month?"

"Why no wingers anymore in games crying out for one?"


Shane Corcoran
103 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:10:43
Mike (#86), so you're comparing my use of social media to Koeman's?

I left a burning bag of shit outside someone's door too. You'd be okay with Koeman doing that too then?

Andy Walker
104 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:12:53
I simply hope Koeman's comments were an attempt to protect the many youngsters in the team who will have to face Man Utd at Old Trafford on Tuesday. He won't want to damage their confidence anymore before that game when there's not enough time to rebuild it. If that's not his thinking, he's lost the plot.

As for Barkley's tackle,it was clearly a straight red. You could see Lovren's shin bending as Barkley put all his weight and momentum on it. A dreadful challenge from a player who had a mare.

Getting involved with Klopp when you've been beaten, again, could be deflection to protect the team, but Klopp came out the bigger man after the post-matches.

Paul A Smith
105 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:40:14
Just seen somebody mention Gana's weak tackle on Coutinho for the 2nd goal.

For weeks now, my mate has been asking questions of Gana's weakness in the tackle. Against Watford, he got absolute bullied and I think in time we will see how much we need more power in the middle.

What an engine though?

Paul Conway
106 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:47:02
As English is not his first language and sometimes it can be difficult to express yourself in another language...

Maybe he was really trying to say:

"Apart from the pinball goal we scored, I am really proud of the fact that my boys kept the score down to three, instead of nine. Also that raging baboon in their technical area, needed to be taken out with a horse tranquiiser."

Mike Allen
107 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:48:50
'Proud'? What nonsense, we can all pick a team but for fuck sake if a player is off form or doesn't look interested pull him off no matter what reputation he has.

I'm fed up seeing these overrated players just going through the motions.
I'm fed up to see flat-footed keepers watching the ball go past them with just a turn of the head.
I'm fed up seeing defenders shy away and turn their backs on the ball when a shot comes in.
I'm fed up with trial by media pundits highlighting and over-hyping what used to be everyday challenges – it's football you play with your feet you can get kicked I didn't see a deliberate dirty tackle.

I did see over-reaction to any kind of tackle that made contact; I did see Mane jump over a Davies challenge and react to get the lad booked.

Proud? Not many from either side to be genuinely proud of. Oh, and the game was a pretty poor standard without the blood and thunder of yesteryear.

Ernie Baywood
108 Posted 02/04/2017 at 09:53:55
I actually thought the Barkley - Lovren incident was just bad luck. Barkley was running with the ball and Lovren stepped in. You've got to judge the challenge rather than the outcome.

The two he made before that could have been yellows though. Saved by then being so early in the game (then Tom got cautioned as a result).

Jon Withey
109 Posted 02/04/2017 at 10:23:17
Andy (#104):

Yeah, it all came across as deflection - no point in him giving the team a kicking at this point, especially the youngsters, they just weren't good enough.

That said, I still think he got it wrong again after getting it wrong for Spurs too – even after the injury problems he has.

Reality bites, we aren't a top six team on the day.

If Man Utd really want it, like Spurs and Liverpool, I don't see us being able to put up enough resistance.

I hope that behind the scenes, that is all registering and that it results in some reaction during the summer.

An above average team and Rom isn't going to break into the top 4.

Daniel A Johnson
110 Posted 02/04/2017 at 10:24:27
Clever from Koeman.

Give the press something to bite onto for the headlines grabbers in order to deflect attention from that fact that:

A. Koemans selection/tactics were crap;
B. The players were woeful;
C. Barkley had his worst game in an Everton shirt;
D. In light of Coleman's injury and everyone being up in arms with Taylor, Barkley's tackle was worse and should have been a red card.

Kim Vivian
111 Posted 02/04/2017 at 10:25:35
I haven't seen anyone make the point that Barkley's foul on Lovren was the result of a very poor touch from Ross himself. The ball got away from him and he lunged after it to try to recover it. Mistimed it and probably should have been off at that point. (I think the early one on Can(?) was worthy of more than a talking to.)

This is not in mitigation but when you are trying to recover from an error of losing the initiative when in a potentially threatening position one can be over zealous. Anyway lucky boy indeed. We would be all over it if it had been in reverse.

As for Joel. I am totally in agreement with all his critics about yesterday's showing. No effort to save any of them. I have just been watching Zaha's against Chelsea. Very similar angle, Courtois unsighted but got down and nearly made it. I couldn't have knocked Joel if he had ended up on the deck after any of them but was spectating as I aw it.

Tony Draper
112 Posted 02/04/2017 at 11:09:28
Mike Green @84.

This post made me both laugh and almost reduced me to tears. The human context illustrates everything crystal clear. But, my overwhelming response is a furious rage at my club.

A generation of standing still. A generation of being nice. A generation of holding open the door. All of this brought to you courtesy of "Baron Hardup" and the pantomime dames.

Thanks Mike, it's a belter of a posting; I completely agree.

Paul A Smith
113 Posted 02/04/2017 at 11:19:11
I hold Koeman fully responsible for yesterday. I've had the time to cool down and my mind hasn't changed.

Being a top centre-half, would Koeman have been happy if his manager told him he needed a 3rd centre-half today and one who hasn't played all season?
He made a mess of the team because Coleman is out, simple as that really. It wasn't mentality... it was mental from Koeman.

Anto Byrne
114 Posted 02/04/2017 at 11:27:33
Klopp is a clown. Playing the kids is in the long-term interest of Everton. We made a few mistakes and the better sides will always punish you. It's a learning curve we should look at the positives from the game and again it's 3 points.

Maybe the derby isn't so important in the short term. Long-term view will be to start winning these games but, until we can match their quality and professionalism, we will just have to grin and bear it. The seventies was worse in my opinion.

Peter Murray
116 Posted 02/04/2017 at 13:18:20
Fortunately we have not had to submit to a seasonal disappointment of European failure but derby fixtures and results just continue to be a complete embarrassment!!!

As mentioned repeatedly, our side over too many years just turn up and forget to actually want it – something uncoachable. Must be an Everton trait - as unfortunately is just getting completely used to it, but made 200% worse, because we are playing just an average, everyday side with pace who are defensively naive, poor. And a manager who can react, discuss & laugh all he likes – but his team do the talking, on the pitch, again and again!!!

John Wilson
117 Posted 02/04/2017 at 15:02:32
Good, now after this sober moment – back to the 'real' reality, which is that Everton can only beat the easier sides. Why was this so difficult to comprehend?
Mark Tanton
118 Posted 02/04/2017 at 15:12:55
I have always snorted with derision at Arsenal's lamentable, pathetic lack of backbone. I am sobering up to the utter hypocrisy of those thoughts today.
Nicholas Ryan
119 Posted 02/04/2017 at 15:22:43
On the evidence only of yesterday's performance, and nothing else, I wouldn't give Sligo Rovers 㿨,000 for Lukaku!
Paul Conway
120 Posted 02/04/2017 at 15:46:03
April Fool's Day!
Kenny Smith
121 Posted 02/04/2017 at 16:02:57
Jerome (#100),

Do you honestly believe that a Koeman is that bad I'd suggest you're still pissed off at both the result, the manner of it, and post-match interview.

If any of the team that played yesterday wanted to play elsewhere, then good look to them. I'd suggest they've all peaked bar Davies, Holgate and Gana.

We are short of class, pace and a desire to win. This summer will be interesting; I'd expect a clear-out of our big names and it's maybe what we need. We'll need to pay over the odds for players and massive wages, like Man City did, but it worked for them.

That way, we can make a proper effort of getting a positive result away from Goodison Park against half-decent sides on a regular basis – and, if we can't do that, then what's the point in even considering Europe???

James Stewart
122 Posted 02/04/2017 at 16:34:25
I'd echo some of the comments on here. I like Koeman a lot but this is pure Martinez-esque hyperbole. We were shite end of story. There was certainly no amount of pride on show. Everton's season consists of 36 games as we throw 2 for the RS every season.

Tactics were cowardly and just plain wrong. Exactly like the Spurs game. 5 at the back doesn't work unless you have the right players available.

Barkley was abysmal but he wasn't the only one. Robles – just embarrassing. Pennington and Calvert-Lewin shouldn't have been starting that game and were way out of their depth; Holgate too.

Disastrous from start to finish.

Ed Fitzgerald
123 Posted 02/04/2017 at 17:29:40
I am amazed that all those who have had a love in with Koeman all season turn on him after the derby defeat after he tries to indulge in some understandable damage limitations with the press after losing to the RS.

To be fair to Koeman he didn't have an awful lot of choice given the injuries and slating the younger players doesn't help anyone. Jags, Williams and Robles were all very poor indeed and I thought Holgate did okay as did Davies.

As usual on here, Barkely has to carry the can, in my opinion his biggest crime was that he tried too hard at times and certainly showed he cared given the tackles he put in.

For those people who have been holding up Koeman as some kind of saviour perhaps this is a reality check for them, at least he looked and sounded pissed off about losing, as we all are.

Marc Carran
124 Posted 02/04/2017 at 18:20:29
We did get beat 3-1, but we did create a few chances, and for quite a weakened side, we didn't do too bad. That's his point.

You understand the annotation made when we play poor but comfortably win, right? That is football, the result is all that matters but the result does not always reflect the full game.

Football is indeed a funny auld game, but far too many people look at the result and ignore the rest. If Calvert-Lewin scored that header and Ashley Williams got a foot in that tap in near the goal then that could of been 3-2 which I imagine most folk wouldn't of said it was as bad then.

But never mind eh? Let's just stick to blaming Koeman for us having to field our kids and as the result says, 3-1 must mean we were 100% totally crap, all the game.

Jonathan Bevan
125 Posted 02/04/2017 at 18:20:38
Re John Pickles (#17),

Obviously the script hadn't been read."They don't like it up them you know..."

FWIW I had been misinformed re the Anfield match; I was told the players had a prior engagement... therefore, a charity game would take place instead. Something about EitC helping our neighbours... then I realized it was April 1st.

Paul A Smith
126 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:00:00
Ed (#123). Spot on about Barkley. Too many people want to hold him responsible every time it doesn't go right for him, while the luvies like Baines and Gana get away with hiding at Anfield. Barkley never hid.
William Cartwright
127 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:00:38
We lost 3 points and bragging rights. Not the end of the world. Although it felt like it yesterday.

The biggest disappointment for me yesterday was Robles. How he could run off his line so far to narrow the angle and at the same time commit himself to one side so early, and then not react in the other direction, at least with an outstretched arm, was just unbelievable to watch. Shame because he did himself proud in earning back a lot of respect in recent weeks. A new goalie next season is our top priority.

I think of the athleticism of Pickford, Krul, Heaton, Butland, etc and the commanding presence of Hart and Foster and such like and it makes me want to weep.

Will Stekelenburg be back between the sticks against Man Utd, I wonder...

Paul Ferry
128 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:07:07
Shane Corcoran (#82): "And why would O'Neill give a shit about Everton anyway? Does Koeman give a shit about Ireland? Of course not."

Except, needless to say, his players are duly released to play for Ireland, including the Scottish lad.

Paul Ferry
129 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:26:52
Brilliant, Mike Green (#84).... And then we have Jerome Shields (#74 and #100). From fine dining to a pot noodle.

JS: "The problem we have is that the manager is that bad that some of the players we have will be looking away and transferable players won't want to join us."

JS: "This Manager is no better than what we had in the previous two Managers. I won't be watching any games, just keep in touch with how we are doing."

1. 'Some' want away; please supply evidence (note the plural).

2. 'Transferable' players won't join us. Any idea who?

3. Erm your reasoning is your asinine tiny tiny tiny tiny minority view of our manager.

4. Koeman is no better than Martinez! That is an opinion. Absolutely it is and good for you, lad, run with it. It's also total garbage in my opinion.

5. Why do you bother?

6. Oh no! Jerome ain't going to watch the match any more! A hole opens in the Everton 'family'.

7. I'm off to read #84 again.

Barry Jones
130 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:52:31
Koeman thinking:

"How do I cope with Klopp's high tempo gagging pressing? We need to counter with speed and fitness, I'd better leave out some of those older players like Barry.

Wait a minute, we have a lot of injuries at the moment, who do I put in the team? I know, why don't I fill it with youngsters who can run around at pace all day.

Wait a minute, it is a derby game, a good time to play uninitiated schoolboys? Maybe not, and I am also missing some width in this team.

Wait a minute, I've loaned out my wingers...

Wait a minute, has anyone got any transcripts from Roberto from last season's games?"

Honestly, I do like and trust the guy most times...

John Wells
131 Posted 02/04/2017 at 19:59:12
Have a look at this...sick bastards

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/liverpool-fans-seamus-colemans-chant-119034

Tony Hill
132 Posted 02/04/2017 at 20:31:21
John, they weren't Liverpool fans. Almost certainly clever impostors, they've been doing this sort of thing for years trying (hopelessly) to blacken the name of the noblest supporters on earth.
James Hughes
133 Posted 02/04/2017 at 21:00:08
Barry, wait a minute, no I don't haven't anything to say either.

Err ... hang on, wait a minute... no, still nothing.

Tony Abrahams
134 Posted 02/04/2017 at 21:04:13
Ernie (#83), you say that Koeman takes no responsibility for the team, but I think that changed yesterday with his comments after the game.

If he was proud, he was either telling lies or protecting certain players but I don't think he could have really felt this way?

A winner is usually a very bad loser, and I think that Koeman, knowing he had fucked up, had decided he was going to have a go at Klopp which bolds well for the future, but only if he's good enough to improve us?

Is he good enough? Well he's made quite a few big tactical mistakes against the better teams away from Goodison, but I could see a man who was hurting whilst getting interviewed after yesterday's game, and I think/hope the message to Klopp was "I'm fucking going to make my team better than yours!"

Andy Meighan
135 Posted 02/04/2017 at 22:03:45
Tony (#134).

I'd love to know who you're kidding with that line: "I'm fucking going to make my team better than yours." Not in a hundred years would he be able to do that. Because basically he's tactically brain dead And, in my opinion, he will turn out to be no better or worse than the previous incumbent.

His team selection and set-up yesterday must have had the RedShite's management rubbing their hands... And didn't our showing prove it? As much as this pains me, Koeman will not improve us... not one bit. Yes, the home form has vastly improved but, in this league, you have to play away as well. And that, Tony, is where we are found wanting.

I honestly fancied us to lose to them and to beat Man Utd. Now I'm certain it won't happen. The man is as negative away as Moyes was. For fuck's sake, at least Martinez tried to get us to win games!!!

Stan Schofield
136 Posted 02/04/2017 at 22:13:24
To me, Koeman is a very good manager when it comes to home form, but a poor manager when it comes to away form. Why can't he get it right away from home, if he can get it right at home? Perhaps his away tactics are shite?

Anyway, on the other matter of the inter-manager friction, whether it's Koeman - O'Neill or Koeman - Klopp, or that disgraceful fight between two Scottish managers who's names I can't remember, what the fuck is going on?

These high profile managers seem to form a cult of personalities, wanting to be the big cheese, craving for centre of attention, acting like they are more important than the clubs who employ them. Why can't they do business discreetly, behind closed doors, and let their teams do the talking for them?

I've come to think that there's a lot of bullshit with high profile managers. They seem to be overpaid for what they do. ٤M per year for away tactics that are shite, and petty feuds with other millionaire managers? It seems to me they act like autocrats with little or no flexibility, pissing talented players off in the process with their rigid instructions that so often don't work. I bet if you put 11 talented players on the pitch, they could sort themselves out no worse, and perhaps better, than under the instruction of these managerial prima donnas.

In our case, perhaps we should appoint Rhino as our manager, he'd no doubt accept a lot less salary, probably wouldn't get involved in bullshit feuds, and would have a good chance of extracting better performances, from players who might actually want to fight for him on the pitch?

Tony Hill
138 Posted 02/04/2017 at 22:42:30
I wanted Koeman out after Watford which was a nadir and was at a time when he'd lost the dressing-room. He got them back onside and my view looked badly premature. I think indeed it was premature, but I am concerned still about the manager.

Is he in our hearts, do we find him inspiring, most importantly does he inspire the players and does he give them confidence with tactical excellence and strong man-mangement? I suspect the answer to all those questions is "no".

I find myself veering around with this man in charge: I have liked the way he seemed to have brought on Barkley (until yesterday), I have liked his arrogance and dismissal of people like O'Neill, and I have liked the change in home form.

And yet, he doesn't somehow hit the mark. Our woeful Cup exits, our confused and cowardly away performances, not only against the top sides, are damning. More worryingly, we lack any discernible style or strategy, even in outline.

I looked a fool after calling for his head last time and I'm not going to make the same mistake after a derby defeat. But I don't think Evertonians have truly taken to this man, and for good reason so far.

Ernie Baywood
139 Posted 02/04/2017 at 23:11:17
Tony Abrahams, when I say he takes no responsibility for the team, I mean he distances his own impact. You won't hear him talk about his selection or tactics – you'd be forgiven for thinking he only had 11 fit players to kit up and send out.

At the end of the day, we have to remember that he's a very senior manager. It's not dissimilar to senior managers in business. They won't rush to take responsibility for things they haven't had control over. Reputations get damaged and jobs get lost when you start doing that.

Every now and then, you might get a great leader. Someone who sees it as their job to inspire, organise and help people aspire to something even if they have to brave the risk of being the fall guy.

Of the latter category, I'd see Joe Royle as being the only one we've had since the 90s. Martinez wanted to be that type of leader but just didn't have it in him. I can respect Roberto for trying though.

The fella we've got right now is a good manager. He'll pretty much get out of this team what the club invests. His own career and reputation will continue to come first though.

Mark Andersson
140 Posted 03/04/2017 at 01:44:05
This has been the best thread in a long time... Some great points made on both the manager and players. For what ever reason only known to them, we have been let down once again.

I truly thought we would win this game; I have to agree with the posters defending Koeman's comments. He looked like a man hurt and embarrassed. Let's hope he learns as his employers will not give him a bollocking.

Let's just see if the board back him this summer, but wait a minute they already have the excuse of building a new stadium, this too is a smoke screen to sell season tickets for the next few seasons... In the mean time the press are loving that arse licking RS and everything Klopp is about..

A good performance is needed on Tuesday but we say that after every derby. My son was too young to attend the match the last time we beat the RS at Anfield, just glad I was there to see it.

Happy days, blues fans all over the world. As the song goes, "Things can only get better".

John Pierce
141 Posted 03/04/2017 at 04:34:17
Tony (#138),

Your confession, if I can put it that way is exactly my thoughts on Koeman and his tenure.

A questionable appointment as his body of managerial work hadn't convinced me. My pulse never barely ticked up on his announcement.

I found him stubborn and error-strewn in his selections, watching on as his 'strength' to change a flawed selection mid-game lauded to a point, is a recurring error. Forced into picking younger players as form, injuries to a point, and tactics deserted him.

I did call for his sacking, felt we'd erred badly in his appointment. Premature, absolutely. However, he has done what is to my mind just repair the damage of the last two season so progress is welcome but not as significant as some might have you believe.

He has given himself time, and it's deserved. My bar was European football and with it comes more income, potential to attract better players and more games to entrench his system. He has achieved that.

Like yourself I am unlikely to ever take to the man I and remain unconvinced, his away record is particularly difficult to swallow. You say veering from one point to another and that is it in a nutshell.

The one thing I cannot shake is the cup exits. I always hope for a decent run. He treated those games shabbily, unforgivable.

I certainly will give him a fairer crack of the whip, but will not stint in a rebuke if he drifts.

Mick Davies
142 Posted 03/04/2017 at 04:52:41
Shane @ 82, learn to read posts before you go on a rant: he said Coleman was 'one' of his most important players, and 'another' injured.

Now in my 50 years as a matchgoing Blue (admittedly the first few too young to remember), I've seen many influential players: Ball, Lyons, Reid, Cahill to name a few, so I think I know a bit about our players. So I agree with what Mike said, and have to ask you have you only been interested in Everton for the the last two and a half seasons?

As I've said here before, I don't think you are as much an Everton fan as an Ireland fan.

Dan Egerton
143 Posted 03/04/2017 at 07:55:18
"What has Mirallas done?"

Mirallas played an (almost) full game for Belgium where he scored only a few days prior. That's why he didn't start.

Tony Abrahams
144 Posted 03/04/2017 at 08:32:23
I understand where you are coming from, Ernie, and I also think you had called Koeman right, but I just felt he looked hurt on Saturday.

He said he was proud, but he's a winner, so there was nothing to be proud of, and I think in private he will be fuming at himself for the way we set up; also for expecting more out of the team with the way we were set up to play.

Our away form against the better teams especially is absolutely horrible but I think it's been this way for a very long time, and I don't know why people are so optimistic when Everton play away from Goodison Park?

Is Ronald Koeman good enough? I will form a much better opinion around Christmas, but although he set us up wrong on Saturday, I think we lost to both Spurs and Liverpool because they both play much more like a team, and work so much harder collectively than we do at the minute.

Trevor Peers
145 Posted 03/04/2017 at 08:40:10
Think what you like about Koeman's ability as a manager, but I think he has been spot-on defending himself and the club recently in the press against both the comments from the Irish manager and the abuse he received from that headcase Klopp at the derby game.

Unless we stand up to these pricks, we'll never get any respect in the game; for years and years, we just take unjustified stick and say nothing. I admire Ron for speaking up for Everton. Well done!

Dave Abrahams
146 Posted 03/04/2017 at 09:07:53
Mike Green (#84) great article on being an Evertonian. So true, I feel the pain you are feeling because I've had it longer than you and the pain never lessens no matter how old you get.

Great perspective by Jamie Crowlie, understand your feelings on Everton and being an Evertonian, you are as good a Bluenose as any on here, write more often Jamie.

John Daley, yes we just want success – I'm not worried about how the manager comes across, think Catterick and Shankly – introvert and extrovert, but both winners.

Sam Barrett
147 Posted 03/04/2017 at 09:51:07
Just managed to bring myself round to reading these posts after Saturday's annual capitulation. You've actually cheered me up!

Alan Green, fantastically witty and moving post. Jamie Crowley, you are not an outsider. Also backs up what I already know that we have the best supporters in the country by a mile.

But, as John Daley points out, it all means fuck all this morning as they, yet again, have the 3 points.

Shane Corcoran
148 Posted 03/04/2017 at 10:07:27
Paul Ferry (#128), O'Neill cares about the Irish players at Everton, not the club. I'm not sure why anyone else would think differently. I'll add you to the list of comedians with the never gets tired dig at McCarthy's nationality. I'm Irish. Is it ok that I support Everton?

Mick (#142), no rant, and Mike already pointed out my error regarding his important player post. Try to read the full thread before going on a rant.

I've no idea what the rest of your post is about. You've been going to Everton games for 50 years, you've seen a lot of influential players and you agree with Mike.

Mike was telling me that Koeman has the right to on social media less than a day before the derby to continue his tit-for-tat row with O'Neill.

I've no idea how you seeing Everton for 50 years has anything to do with that, or how long I've been watching them has either. Maybe you'd enlighten me.

Ciaran O'Brien
149 Posted 03/04/2017 at 11:46:32
Koeman spent the whole week blasting O'Neill and Keane over the whole McCarthy issue. He should have been preparing us properly for the Derby instead. I know it is annoying that it's happened time and time again but McCarthy isn't even one of our star players. Koeman, Everton, Ireland and Jimmy Mac are all to blame for the whole fiasco.

On to the game, is anyone else fucking sick of us barely putting opposition and shite keepers under pressure? We don't shoot enough and we are piss poor at playing a proper counter-attacking system at Mordor and the other grounds we don't win in. I think it might be best if Lukaku went and we got a smaller, pacy type of striker who will help in these games.

Klopp is a total gobshite a lot of the time but he at least has passion which it seems Ronnie doesn't. Although Klippity is overrated, he's no better than Brendan Rodgers. People go on about his success at Dortmund which is alright but Dortmund are hardly a small club, they've always been one of Jerry's biggest clubs.

We need to start keeping the ball better in these games if we want to have a chance. Too often we gift the opposition the ball with stupid passes and hoofs up to Lukaku who is not a target man.

Terry Underwood
150 Posted 03/04/2017 at 12:24:57
Bearing in mind the number of youngsters in the team, Koeman might just not want to put them down too much.

As for Barkley, he was brought up hating the likes of Gerrard. He just reacted the way any of us would given the chance: get stuck in and do the twats.

Disapointing, but still only 3 points

Jamie Barlow
151 Posted 03/04/2017 at 12:56:16
"Koeman spent the whole week blasting O'Neill and Keane over the whole McCarthy issue. He should have been preparing us properly for the derby instead."

No he didn't. He more than likely spent about an hour writing a statement and then replied once on Twitter. Hardly "the whole week".

Ciaran O'Brien
152 Posted 03/04/2017 at 13:23:48
Jamie, he more or less did. All I saw on Sky Sports and on line was the feud between Ronnie and the Irish management.

He again got his tactics wrong and having injured players is no excuse to throw kids who barely played together into the snakepit. We had 4 centre-halves on the field, 1 defensive mid, 1 centre mid, 1 attacking mid, 1 left back and two strikers. Gaps were everywhere and nobody had any support. We were all over the place. It looked as if there was hardly any preparation at all.

Oliver Molloy
153 Posted 03/04/2017 at 13:34:11
I can not agree with those implying Koeman failed to prepare properly because of his gripe with O'Neill.

Irrespective of what team was out there wearing the Everton shirt, they weren't very good – from the goalkeeper to our star midfielder to our star £70 million striker.

I predicted a draw but wasn't surprised at all, because it is just the norm.

Ciaran O'Brien
154 Posted 03/04/2017 at 13:45:17
But why is it the norm? The RS and Spurs are hardly Barca or Brazil 1970.

I know we have some mental block when playing the top teams but we always set up too defensively in these games which basically admits defeat with a "try not to lose" gameplan.

Lesser sides continuously beat the top sides, look at Palace at Chelsea. Burnley, Swansea, Wolves at Mordor.

Kenny could have played right back with Mirallas and Valencia both starting instead of Pennington and Calvert-Lewin.

Colin Hughes
155 Posted 03/04/2017 at 14:01:30
Terry Underwood (#150),

I can't agree with your final statement "disappointed but still only 3 points". They are nine points ahead of us but won both derbies, had we have won both we would be 3 points ahead of then now – six points more for us and six less for them.

In layman's terms, the difference between them qualifying for the Champions League and us not, therefore having a huge impact on the likelihood of us attractng or keeping the better players. So to me it's not just 3 points we lose every time we fail in the derby.

Mick Davies
156 Posted 03/04/2017 at 15:36:31
Shane (#148), you don't even remember your own comments. Let me remind you: "As for your rant about the injuries; McCarthy, one of his most important players? We truly are fucked if that's the case."

If you don't know how important McCarthy is, then why do you defend O'Neill, who does everything in his power to get him playing – even when injured?

You really do tie yourself up in knots over your beloved Ireland, yet don't seem to care about how it all affects Everton...

Shane Corcoran
157 Posted 03/04/2017 at 15:53:49
Mick, what comments don't I remember? The great thing about threads on forums such as these is that I can read back.

I posted what you quoted, I made a mistake which was pointed out to me and then you decided to point it out again. Where am I forgetting something?

Let me quote you now; "If you don't know how important McCarthy is, then why do you defend O'Neill, who does everything in his power to get him playing – even when injured."

What kind of gibberish is this? In my opinion, McCarthy is not an important player for either Everton or Ireland. Unfortunately, O'Neill values him highly, hence his desperation to play him against Wales. Where are am I tying myself up in knots?

I post on ToffeeWeb as I see it. It's fairly clear to me why O'Neill would pick McCarthy. I don't particularly like O'Neill but I don't see it as a matter of taking sides. A man of your footballing experience surely doesn't see football as black and white. Surely managers, players etc say things you both agree with and disagree with?

And your last line, yip they are my beloved Ireland and yes I care more about the team representing the county of my birth and upbringing than I do of an English club team. Relevance to anything: zero.

Mick Davies
158 Posted 03/04/2017 at 16:49:44
Shane, I suggest you find a Republic of Ireland forum and leave Everton websites to those who have no conflict of interest. You obviously know nothing about the club if you think McCarthy wasn't instrumental in the record points season, or missed during the 2 disastrous seasons, or didn't influence the win against Arsenal and the first half dominance over Liverpool until he was subbed (Bournemouth too).

I suppose YOU see football as 'Black and White' and, if a player is not scoring plenty of goals, he's crap. You don't appreciate the not-so-obvious hard work on and off the ball by the likes of Gueye, Schneiderlin and McCarthy – Barry's limited mobility wasn't apparent in that first season, as his partner was shouldering the burden – remember the banner about two thirds of the earth?

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
160 Posted 03/04/2017 at 17:27:51
Mick, strong opinions are fine on here but please don't call people wind-up merchants for stating their own views. And please don't invite other Evertonians to leave the forum.

Also, can we give this "50 years an Evertonian" bollocks a rest? It does zero to strengthen any discussion. Yes, there's a bunch of us have been around a while... doesn't mean our opinion is any better or worse for the experience, sadly. Thanks.

Des Farren
161 Posted 03/04/2017 at 19:26:45
Whatever about his merits as a manager, he is certainly a dissembler. He does not like to accept either blame or responsibility. He deflects, ie, Martinez to blame for fitness levels.

Maybe he was but players don't look any more fit to me now. He has complaints about Van Gaal, O'Neill, Keane, Klopp all to deflect attention from his own failings. If his formations fail to work, it is either players' fault or he talks up poor performances.

McCarthy has had hamstring issues going back to Martinez's time. What is Koeman doing about it? Does he not bear some responsibility?

His response to every problem,and he has major problems,is to try to deflect and apportion blame to others. He is under huge pressure. I'm not sure he is up to it.

Nigel Johnson
162 Posted 03/04/2017 at 22:33:13
Just a thought. I've been reading various comments about the team selection. One of the biggest problems Everton have when playing Liverpool is the mental block.

So I am wondering apart from the players that were injured who would of course have played, the young players who did play have no history against Liverpool so could simply play their game without any negative past experience so no mental block.

The only question that they had to answer is can they cope with the pressure of this match and of course some did better than others. The one thing that came out of this match was that the young players have a clear understanding of the levels that they need to reach.

Mick Davies
163 Posted 04/04/2017 at 00:20:52
Michael, apologies, but when I thought someone was having a go at one of our players I felt I have to respond. And I only mentioned (like lots of others have) the length of time supporting Everton to prove I've seen enough players to judge their worth to EFC.

Shane, no hard feelings, comment retracted. I'm sure we both want a win at the Theatre of Fiends so COYB

Dave Abrahams
164 Posted 04/04/2017 at 00:23:37
Michael (#160) Amen to that, especially the second paragraph.

I had an argument years ago with a genuine fella, a red fan, he'd followed Liverpool for years and years but had packed in going. Liverpool got to the FA Cup Final, he felt he was entitled to a cup final ticket. I told him if another fan who had started following Liverpool just recently but had a season ticket, he was more entitled to get a cup final ticket than him because he had packed in going to see his team. He wouldn't have it.

I don't think a long-standing supporter is better than a younger fan because he has been going longer, the younger fan could be a lot more passionate than the older fan and he might be more knowledgeable as well.

Dave Abrahams
165 Posted 04/04/2017 at 00:30:16
Mick (#163), just seen your post and we have been obviously writing at the same time, so my post @ 164 isn't aimed at you.
Shane Corcoran
166 Posted 04/04/2017 at 09:44:59
Mick #163, no worries.

Just to clarify, I'm Everton mad (embarrassingly so for an Irishman), I'm a proud Ireland fan, I'm an Everton fan of 30 years but rarely go to the game. I think McCarthy has his benefits but 90% of them are when his team don't have the ball and so overall he wouldn't be in my team. I like O'Neill's passion but he's a bit embarrassing also; and I think Koeman should rise above O'Neill's shit.

COYB.

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