Tim Cahill and Moyes’s Modern Football Miracle

13/11/2017  141 Comments  [Jump to last]
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As Everton enter their 140th year, Faith Of Our Families: Everton: An Oral History tells the story of the club through the voices of the people who made the institution one of the most revered in world football. Assiduously curated by award-winning author, James Corbett, the book features more than 150 original interviews with the club's players, managers, fans and administrators, offering an unparalleled and unprecedented insight into the club's story.

The following is an excerpt from Everton: An Oral History that tells the story of Everton's so-near-yet-so-far brush with the Holy Grail of the Uefa Champions League in 2005.


Alan Irvine: David and I, every summer, would go and spend some time thinking, ‘What new practices can we make up? What can we change? How can we freshen it up?' I think that probably one of the things that dawned on me was in the first season — the first pre-season — we went to St Andrews and we had meetings in the hotel to talk about how the team would work together, with the players. In the first year those meetings were fantastic, and we actually laid down the ground rules about how as a whole team and playing staff we were going to work for the whole season. We tried the same meeting the next pre-season in St Andrews and I thought it was a disaster. I felt as if it we didn't get anything like the positive outcomes out of it. And that was probably a situation which should have been ringing alarm bells, you know? That maybe the players were going to find ‘crikey that was hard work, getting to seventh. Not sure if we can do that again'.

Alan Stubbs: David had a way of how he wanted his pre-seasons to go, no matter what. And knowing the fitness coaches that were there, Dave Billows, they probably had heated discussions on how it should go, and you've got Dave trying to bring in some new evolution of how pre-season training should go, and you've got David with his strong-minded beliefs of how or what he wanted to get out of pre-season. You can imagine the two of them going head to head, some interesting conversations. But David would always win, and they were really tough pre-seasons, probably as tough as what I've encountered.

Leon Osman: We went to [2004/05] pre-season in Houston — went to Austria first but then went to Houston. We'd worked under him for a while; he was very tense and very uptight. He didn't drop his standards, but his demeanour and manner just became more relaxed. It just really helped. We got there and he was usually very regimented but we got there in the middle of the day, say Friday, three o'clock, and we didn't train. We had that afternoon to ourselves, the evening, the full day the next day where we all played golf, and then had a night out. We didn't start training until the afternoon on the Sunday, because we had to acclimatise. That was so unlike David Moyes. It was usually get there, ‘Right let's get your boots out and go for a run.'

Alan Irvine: By the third year it was probably a case of well, that isn't a magic pill, having the meeting at St Andrews, we don't need to do that again. What we need to do is find a way where we can reignite the way that we were playing before.

Leon Osman: We had pretty much two full days on our own, and we had such a good time. We did all sorts, it was ridiculous. Ice rinks and golf and drinking, everything. It was like a mini stag do. But then when we got ready two days later, started training, it was like ‘Right, we've enjoyed ourselves here, this is it. Let's keep up, let's get back now.' And it just seemed to work. We'd had such a good time, up until then, so all of these stories lasted the rest of this trip, because you'd had your fun and every time in training something happened, you referred to something you'd done in the last few days. And it just became such togetherness, such a close knit group. And just constantly laughing and yet able to do your work.

Lee Carsley: We were doing an evening session in Houston. It had gone dark because there was no floodlights on the pitch. We'd finished a running session, which was an outrageous session, he fucking ran us into the ground he did. He got us all together in the centre circle and he said, ‘Listen lads, Wayne's going, I'm not bringing anyone in, this is going to be our squad for the season, so get your heads around the fact that we need to stick together and we need to pull together, and we need to fucking go for it.' That for me was one of them moments where the team just bonded. We got together. It was the best team talk he ever did whilst I was there.

Alan Stubbs: It probably brought all the lads together really quickly. I think it probably was a catalyst for us doing pretty well. I think it's difficult to turn round and go, ‘That was the reason why the season went so well,' or ‘that was the reason why the season went so poorly.' I think it's a number of factors that can ultimately lead to a good or a bad experience.

David Moyes: It was a play-off game. I said to Bill, ‘Will you come and watch a player at Millwall with me?' We had already met a few players in Bill's office, we'd done it with a couple of other players — we met a couple who we didn't really like. We didn't like their attitude. The two of us worked on it together. I took him to Millwall and said, ‘Come and look at this boy in the Championship who I really like.' We actually went to see three players: Lucas Neill, Steven Reid, Tim Cahill. And Tim was the one who I had my eye on. He was a midfield player who could get in the box and score. And I liked the thought of it. Anyway, we got him into the office as well, and Tim's charm and character, personality, he'd win over anybody, he really would. He won over Bill, and it matters a lot to Bill. Bill wanted to see people who had big heart and a big personality.

Mike Hughes: I can remember speaking to David Moyes about Tim Cahill. Tranmere had played Millwall in a night game and David Moyes had gone over to watch and I asked about Tim Cahill and he said, ‘No not interested in him. I've seen that in the papers we're not interested in Tim Cahill.' Obviously they then signed him. David Moyes would never tell you or wouldn't tell you much with regards to that sort of thing. I remember asking him on a Saturday after a match the transfer window closed on the Monday or the Tuesday in January, ‘Do you think Everton will be signing anybody?' ‘Er no we won't be doing any business' and they signed four players. That was what David Moyes was like.

Tony Hibbert: To be honest, with Tim, £1.5 million we didn't expect a world beater, we didn't expect a lad from the local park. We expected a normal player, we didn't expect anything. With him training, he was a normal honest lad and a good player, a very good player. He didn't light us up, this unbelievable kid, but as the games went on, he more or less bought into the whole idea, and I think it helped him that he was close to me, he was close to Ozzy, he was close to a lot of people that were close to the club. He bought into the fact that it's Everton Football Club, and we would die for this club.

Alan Irvine: We were a great move for Tim and he was a great fit for us, because Tim wasn't going to go and play in one of the top teams, but he had the chance to come and play every week for us. It was a great step for him and a terrific signing from the club's point of view.

Hana Roks: He had the passion and he loved Everton. When you got a corner you thought, ‘Tim Cahill's head's going on this.' And he had quite a little nasty streak in him as well which I always love. I always remember him losing his boot, I think it was at Blackburn away, and he's scored and he's had no boot and it was just great. He's just one of those players where you could be in the 97th minute drawing 0-0 and you think ‘Cahill'll step up here.' Obviously we didn't know much about him he'd come from Millwall and I knew he'd played against United when Millwall got beat 3-0 [in the 2004 FA Cup Final]. I think that's really the only time I'd seen him play, but he came to us and the rest is history.

Simon Hart: Maybe the World Cup shouldn't be viewed as the ultimate barometer and the Champions League should be, but Tim Cahill went and scored in three different World Cup finals. I think if you put him on a big stage, he tended to grow on that stage, rather than the other way round. And he'd do it in the biggest games for Everton. So I would say he's world class, and I love the fact that Cahill, at a time when other players would leave Everton citing lack of ambition, not only remained, but bought into the city and the club.

Alessandro Pistone: They were always trying to discover these new and upcoming players, young players with great potential to bring to Everton and to build up a new team, a big team. Obviously not spending massive money to bring in players with already three, four, five seasons in the Premier League because obviously you have to face up with the fact that you cannot compare with — at that time — teams like Manchester United, Arsenal, with massive money to spend. So they were always trying to do the things cleverly.

Leon Osman: Rooney hadn't gone at that point, but we all knew he was going. He'd injured his foot. We'd brought in this lad Tim Cahill who had scored a couple of goals for Millwall. Seen his goals, he was a good player but we hadn't met him yet, because he was at the Olympics. So we just had our little team and our little squad. I wouldn't say we were thinking, ‘We're confident' and all that, but we had smiles on our faces. We were enjoying playing football with each other. And that always helps.

Tony Hibbert: The team spirt was unbelievable. Great bunch of lads, friends on and off the pitch. It was brilliant. The club itself to be honest, from staff in the canteen to secretaries, it felt good, it felt a good place as a unit. It was just a good place to be.

Leon Osman: We didn't start off the season too well, but I think they were still ‘The Invincibles' back then, Arsenal, weren't they? We lost 4-1, but then we went to Palace, 1-0 down early again. And then their keeper — Julian Speroni — changed our season. Kev Campbell robbed him of the ball and from then we never looked back. The belief, the confidence, we just had all of it. Things fell into place, we went to Old Trafford and drew, we beat West Brom. The happiness and the excitement and the togetherness when we celebrated, every one of us got in a huddle. I think we were still referring to, ‘Do you remember that in Houston?' It was a really good time for us.

Kevin Campbell: Again it was that toughness. Tinkered with the formation, we started playing 4-5-1, and what tended to happen was Tim Cahill came in, who had a fantastic ability to get into the box late. The striker had to lead the line, so when the striker's leading the line you tended to find that the strikers weren't scoring a lot of goals, but Tim Cahill, who was kind of joining in, was getting quite a bit of the goals. Moyes tinkered with the system and it worked. Hard to beat, tough, hardnosed club again, which the fans love.

Alan Irvine: You've no doubt heard it plenty of times — goals change games and if you do get a goal and you are a team that is very determined, then there's a fair chance that goal might just be enough for you. Tim's goals were [important] things, but you know he headed plenty of balls in our box as well.

Leon Osman: Tommy Gravesen was one of the most technically gifted players I have ever played with. Skill, range of passing, strength. But defensively, we called him, ‘Mad Dog', because he just ran all over the place like a mad dog. So it was always difficult for Lee Carsley to play in a 4-4-2 with him because you need to work as a two, and Tommy would run all over the place, charge round people and leave big gaps. So it just fell perfectly for us because Tim Cahill could do both and Tommy could do both. So between them, they did half a job each to help Cars. So Cars did the main job and they did half a job each, and yet Tim got forward with his other half and Tommy created everything with his other half.

David Moyes: He was tough, Tim. He was tough, and he wasn't a great football player as far as midfield passers go. And this is where his position developed into a bit of a number ten, in between a midfield player and a forward. And Tim being what he was meant we had to try and find a way of playing which fitted Tim Cahill in. But at this time we'd started to bring in Mikel Arteta. We also had Leon Osman, a similar type, so you talk about style… I used to laugh when I heard people say it, because I used to think, ‘Well, what style do you play with Mikel Arteta and Leon Osman?' Yeah we had another type which was a Tim Cahill, or in the past it was Duncan Ferguson, Kevin Campbell, whatever, but we were trying to evolve our style to become better with our football.

Danny Cadamarteri: He played like a man possessed. He was all over the pitch. He'd chase the ball into the full-back, and the full-back would play it to the centre half, he'd chase it to the centre half and that centre half would play it to the other centre half, and he would run it down and play it to the other full- back, he'd chase the other full-back and then he'd win the ball.

Lee Carsley: My role was to give Tim and Thomas the licence to get forward, get second balls, to keep the play moving simply, to plug gaps in defence when needed, just be a good team player. We'd done a lot of work on the back four and myself in front; defending, defending, defending, wave after wave of attack against twelve players, fourteen players, sixteen players, and we just developed a real resilience. Along with Richard Wright and Nigel Martyn behind us, we forged a great unit.

Alan Stubbs: You didn't know what you were going to get from Thomas Gravesen, and I think that was the thing that was good about him. But I don't think Thomas knew what he was going to give you, so if he didn't know, then we wouldn't have a clue! But when he did perform, he was, at times, excellent throughout the season. Kevin Kilbane was probably a typical David Moyes player. Very honest, really hardworking, run forever, big, strong, powerful; and he was a brilliant lad.

Kevin Campbell: Tim's got a great leap on him, so he's got a better chance of winning that ball. He mastered it, didn't he? He mastered getting in the box late, which was great.

Nigel Martyn: I think defensively we got better. The midfield, he went with three in the midfield or five all the way across, and we had workers there that ran their socks off every game. With Marcus Bent up front that season, he was very mobile, so he could run into channels.

David Weir: I can remember winning a lot of games 1-0, and I can remember us having a lot of momentum and a good spirit about the place, and just a belief that we were going to win games. Definitely the pieces fell into place, Thomas Gravesen was a big part of it and the unity within the group was good. But again, you wonder if that comes from winning or vice versa. That's the kind of conundrum associated with football — what comes first? But the system itself, it wasn't revolutionary. We were hardworking, we were one upfront, and we played on the counter attack quite a lot, even at home sometimes, the opposition — especially the better teams — would have more of the ball. Marcus Bent was lightning quick, Tim Cahill could pop up with a goal, and defensively we were pretty sound, Lee Carsley being a big part of that, and Nigel Martyn I think was a goalkeeper at the time; top class players.

By the start of 2005 Everton had 40 points — more than they'd gained in the entire previous season — and were occupying a Champions League spot. In January they signed Southampton's centre-forward, James Beattie, for a club record £6million and Real Sociedad's midfielder, Mikel Arteta. Thomas Gravesen, however, was a surprise departure to Real Madrid.

Alan Stubbs: We would always be shouting and encouraging Thomas to get back in, whereas Mikel, he brought that discipline, but it was a controlled discipline. He was technically not as skilful as Thomas, but in terms of retention of the ball, distribution of passing, probably scoring a few goals, scoring goals and all from set pieces, he had a bigger influence on the team. He didn't have the dribbling ability of Thomas, even though Mikel was very good, but Mikel gave us probably something that at that time was probably more consistent of what we needed.

Leon Osman: We didn't really know much about [Mikel] when he came in, but what a good player he was. He seemed to fit in seamlessly, everyone took to him really well. I think we brought James Beattie in at roughly the same time, and he was another one. He came in and found his way in the team. Things just worked out for us at that point.

Tony Hibbert: Mikel was a brilliant player. Football ability-wise he was brilliant. To be honest I didn't realise how good he was until he came, but he probably gave us that football side of things.

Alan Irvine: Mikel had the reputation of somebody who was a nice footballer but didn't really work that hard. Mikel came in and fitted in brilliantly. I love players like Mikel, Steven Pienaar and Leon Osman and Leighton Baines — really talented footballers, technically very good, very aware of what is going on round about them, but they were all great characters as well. Fabulous footballers' and great professionals. The training was getting better and better. Mikel was a huge addition.

Kevin Campbell: I'd left by the time he came in, I'd gone. But obviously I watched from a distance. Mikel Arteta was a fantastic player. He was a dictator of the tempo of the game, which Everton really didn't have. Being able to dictate the tempo means that you control the game. Everton tended to control the game a lot better, and once you can control the game and control the tempo, you've got a better chance of winning games.

Many factors helped Everton's ascendancy that season, including a resurgent Duncan Ferguson, who put years of injury problems behind him to play a telling part in the campaign — often from the bench. On 20 April 2005 Everton effectively secured Champions League qualification with a 1-0 over Manchester United; Ferguson's winner the high point of one of the finest performances of his career.

David Moyes: It was incredible the night Duncan scored against Manchester United. I always think of Everton as a hard-working, industrial football club. They always talk about the School of Science, and I can see the players that they had, but I don't think I saw any of the great Everton sides that weren't competitive. When I think of Everton of the past I would think of Andy Gray and Graeme Sharp upfront, Trevor Steven one side, Kevin Sheedy, maybe Reidy and Bracewell, whoever it may be. I wouldn't have said they were going into those games not at it every game. I still saw Everton in that picture, that was my picture of Everton. I wanted to try and get a team — that could never be as good, never be the same — but could follow that picture.

Tony Hibbert: From the minute you kicked off you just knew. From the changing rooms, leading into the game, you just knew, he'd tell you he was up for it, no matter what. And you just knew, ‘Wow, we're going to get a game from Fergie here.'

Leon Osman: It was like winning the league for us. It was ridiculous. It was my first full season, and we'd done this, and who knows, imagine what can come next. It was really a good achievement. We got off to such a good start, we were in the top four pretty much all year, and really did deserve what we got.

Alan Stubbs: After that start, we just thought, ‘You know what, we'll just keep doing our own thing, we'll just keep going and see where it takes us.' And we probably got strength from everybody writing us off. Because from early on, you see, ‘Oh Everton have started off really well, but that will peter off, they'll probably finish in the top eight', type of thing, and it probably give us a bit of an extra incentive. As well as that, we had David driving it home all the time, because David would turn around and say he wanted to finish first. And we would all be like, ‘Yeah, okay, good one.' But that was him. He brought not just a winning mentality, but a real desire to not take second best. And with that group he certainly just seemed to light the fuse paper with it. And for that season it worked.

Nigel Martyn: The season before was such a struggle and it was hard work. That's when it's a tough place to be, where you're going in every day and you've lost again say the week before, you're down in a relegation fight. The following season you're up challenging for Europe, you're winning games, you're getting good results against big sides. Everything is brighter, your confidence is up, it's a much happier place to be. Training wise and on match day you feel a lot more confident, and it's not something that you can manually switch on and off, it's just literally how you feel. We, in that second season, were feeling better about ourselves, a bit more than we were the season before.

Kevin Campbell: Everton done so well to get into Europe, the Champions League. That actually bucked the trend, didn't it? That was like winning the division, because breaking into that top four was unheard of.

Leon Osman: You certainly look back now — and just think if we'd have done that now or if ten years ago Everton would have had the financial backing to go and support what we did… but we were a team; we'd just finished seventeenth, had to sell Wayne Rooney to pay the bills, couldn't invest any of it, got a great team together, managed to finish fourth, suddenly you've got all these extra games. And we brought in one player to strengthen. I think it was Simon Davies, who happened to be in my position, by the way. Imagine nowadays a team finishing fourth in the league and then buying one player? Without strengthening you're not going to be able to keep going.

After Liverpool's surprise Champions League triumph over AC Milan UEFA had to decided which of the two Merseyside clubs to allow into the draw. The rules clearly showed it should be Everton, but the governing body deliberated. In the end a compromise was reached: Liverpool would enter qualification at the first qualifying round; Everton would still enter in the final qualifying round. The draw would not prove kind though: the Toffees found themselves up against Villarreal, who had just finished third in La Liga and possessed the brilliant Juan Roman Riquelme in their ranks.

David Moyes: The build-up to it was obviously Liverpool winning the Champions League. I remember I was at home and the Liverpool game was on. I remember the staff were texting 1-0 Milan, 2-0, 3-0. The staff were all texting, ‘Great, great'. And by the end of it I had booked a flight to get out of the country, because I couldn't stand the thought. We had finished fourth, Liverpool had finished fifth and Everton had very rarely finished above them in [recent] history. For us to do it and find we were sort of trumped by Liverpool was terrible. So I got of the country. I remember phoning Bill Kenwright and saying ‘Tell me there's not many people on the streets Bill,' when Liverpool were parading the trophy, and he said ‘You don't want to know David.' So I was glad I got away. So that was the build-up.

Nigel Martyn: Celebrating finishing above them was great and then they go and spoil it by winning probably the most exciting European Cup final in memory.

Leon Osman: There was talk of us not suddenly getting Champions League and them not getting Champions League, qualifiers and all that.


Faith In Our Families is available now from deCoubertin Books

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Reader Comments (141)

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Peter Murray
1 Posted 13/11/2017 at 08:54:46
Great extracts, tremendous memories – oh for some real blueboys like these now!!!

Never forgotten – that's why we are the People's Club.

COYB always – magnificent!!!

Tony Abrahams
2 Posted 13/11/2017 at 12:24:04
Interesting read, No rocket science. just get the players fit, play them in a formation that will suit them, it helps when you have got players who love the club of course, but keep it simple, let them get a few decent results and then watch the confidence grow!

James Flynn
3 Posted 13/11/2017 at 12:30:23
Fun read.

I never saw Gravesen and he's only ever mentioned once in awhile here.

According to this article, he was a top talent. Was he that good?

Steve Carse
4 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:05:47
Gravesen was a talent. But also a maverick. He would prefer to run with the ball rather than pass it.

Problem was, the midfield and defenders always had to have in mind that he might lose possession and so would often hold back from getting in advance of him. As the excerpt shows, Carsley had the prime responsibility for covering when he did lose the ball.

Sam Hoare
5 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:30:57
I loved Gravesen. So unpredictable. Even to his own team.

I also loved Joseph Yobo. Moyes's first signing and often under-rated on these pages, I feel. He always looked like he might have an error in him but he was just so quick and strong! Wish we had a centre-back like him at the moment to be honest.

Ian Tunstead
6 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:40:05
The fact that Real Madrid came in for him shows how good he was that season, even though they bought him to replace Makalele, a defensive midfielder, so really Lee Carsley was closer to what they were looking for.
Steve Brown
7 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:44:47
Gravesen, good player and completely unhinged.
Steve Brown
8 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:52:25
"He had this crazy Danish-Scouse accent. Once he brought a paintball gun in and started just shooting people.

"He brought fireworks in one day.

"The physio's room was at the side of one of the pitches. The physio was one of the fittest guys at the club, he was in his 50s and used to play a bit.

"He was running with the injured players when Tommy comes out with a big rocket and fires it right at him."

Steve Brown
9 Posted 13/11/2017 at 13:53:15
So is he good with numbers? Does he have blinding math skills? Does he knee-high tackle his opponents.

No, he's tight.

"He had no outgoings, no bills," added McFadden. "He used to stay in Lee Carsley's flat. He didn't like having bills. He had a nice motor, but in the winter he'd sell it and buy a Renault Megane, because that's a 'winter car'.

"In the summer he wore new Hummel boots, but in the winter he dug out some leather ones and called them his 'winter shoes' - never boots."

In the Summer, Gravesen didn't care for plush holidays, he used to go stay in his mum's basement in Denmark.

John Daley
10 Posted 13/11/2017 at 14:04:23
"According to this article, he was a top talent. Was he that good?"


Short answer, James? No.

He was in fantastic form the first four months of the 2004-05 season, easily the best he had played in an Everton shirt but prior to that Tommy's performance levels were all over the place, veering from gash to good, with generous helpings of a sort of bald 'Bennett' from 'Commando' tribute act in-between.

As a mere spectator, there's no way I can go along with Alan Stubbs's assertion that Gravesen was superior to Arteta in either technique or his ability to beat a man (with the ball at his feet I mean, not mercilessly about the body and face).

There's a few reminiscences above that seem a bit ropy though. Osman saying Beattie came in and found his feet? Fuck me. He probably spent ages every morning fumbling about for them in a mad panic, fearing they'd been amputated in the middle of the night, until he calmed down and remembered they would usually magically sprout back again when he squeezed his moobs into a tight-fitting, sports bra. He was atrocious for the half a season after he signed (not much better after, either) and added almost nothing to the teams effort to secure fourth place. Stupidly butting someone in the back of the head was probably his sole impact.

Osman is off again when he claims only one new signing (Simon Davies) was made during the summer leading up to the Champions League qualifier. Pretty sure Matteo Ferrari, Per Krøldrup, Andy van der Meyde and Phil Neville all came in around that time... to undoubtedly leave teams on the continent absolutely crapping their keks at the thought of being drawn against the Blues.

Eugene Ruane
11 Posted 13/11/2017 at 14:56:18
I remember a performance from Gravesen for Denmark (4) against England (1) when he looked like an absolute world-beater.

England got absolutely no change out of him, or that little mini me feller who played alongside him, who was, I think, at Bolton (name escapes me).

Definitely had 'it', but as with a lot of 'modern' players, you only get two good performances in every seven.

Bobby Mallon
12 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:00:05
Do you think Koeman was trying to emulate Moyes's side, having two defensive midfielders (like Carsley and Mad Dog) with an attacking No 10 in Rooney, Sigurdsson or Klaassen (Tim Cahill) – but they are not the right players.
William Cartwright
13 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:02:29
Is it really 12 years ago that we were robbed by the double of Liverpool winning the Champions League and that twat Collina who gifted our place to Villarreal?

Reading the comments makes you realize the importance of psychology in how a team performs. Like with the St Andrews pre-season experience, you can't repeat it and get the same feeling or result.

I've always thought that was what made Fergie such a great manager: he realized this and was an expert and de-constructing and rebuilding a team which most people say he did seamlessly. I think every time he did it, he visibly improved upon what went before!

Fascinating read and interesting to see if Unsy can take some heart from the stories. I still do not know what to pin my colours to; the home-grown or the bought-in versions. I'll go with the home-grown for now and see how it shapes up.

Talking of home-grown, I am completely washed out with the England call-up for Dominic Red-Shite Solanke, when Dominic Calvert-Lewin was being talked up in the media beforehand. I bet some Redshite involved with communication at the BBC made the wrong call on purpose and no-one would back down or own up to the mistake!

John McFarlane
14 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:06:56
Hi James (#3),

I used to compare Tommy Gravesen to a British summer's day – you never knew what you were going to get... he had that rare ability of being both the best and worst player in the same game.

But what you were guaranteed was 100% commitment, and as Ian (#6) says, Real Madrid saw something in him, but to be truthful I don't think that Tommy and Spanish football were made for each other.

Kevin Tully
15 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:07:12
Ahhh... the glory years. Remember them well. Pinching a 0-0 against some the behemoths of the English game.

When's the next gala dinner? Is it true Phil Neville is writing a book about 'that tackle' on Ronaldo?

Dear me.

Henrik Lyngsie
16 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:22:50
Eugene 11. It must be Stig Tofting. Former national coach nicknamed him the lawnmower. Tofting and Gravesen – such characters.
John Pierce
17 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:46:08
Some funny excerpts, some reminders of good times and also the disparity in the game a mere decade on.

That season was remarkable in many ways. Some very average players who just knew they were a cog in the machine and thats what they had to do.

We currently lack that type of unselfish player, even one who has limited ability but a good brain.

The seaon was filled with 1-0s and second half goals, my memory fades but fuck could we not muster a goal in the first half of games.

The United game was a thunderous occasion, under the lights and just a scrap.

Phil Dowd the referee that night let us get away with murder. We kicked and clawed at United. A referee who often was out of step with his type allowed a lot of physicality, often responded in kind when a player came with armed with a fouled mouthed rant. I enjoyed his ‘style’.

The qualifier is almost a myth, legend in what actually happened. Many feel hard done by and even today a thread somewhere has something spewing about Collina and Uefa ‘fucking us over’.

In truth we were poor in the first leg and not much better in the 2nd. Moyes was naive about Europe, and it showed we really got sucker punched at Goodison.

Having given home advantage up, our inability to score freely was exposed, and the rigidity that brought so much solidity became our undoing.

Oddly I think even though we played decent stuff in spells under Moyes. That defeat scarred him and coloured his attitude towards many a big game in the future.

A very brief but very Everton thing to do, break a hegemony then just slip away again like nothing had ever happened.

Everton my only footballing love, ‘mostly’ pulling the carpet from beneath me since forever!

John G Davies
18 Posted 13/11/2017 at 15:47:54
It was all downhill for Tommy after he left the Blues.
Steve Ferns
19 Posted 13/11/2017 at 16:08:21
John Daley, for once I shall disagree with you. Tommy Gravesen was that good. The year we finished 4th mostly down to him, just look at the fact that we got 18 points without him and 44 with him. Once he left, our form went off a cliff.

Of course he was misunderstood and misused prior to that Glorious season, but the talent was there for all to see. We just needed to stop booting it over his head, and to relieve him off defensive duties.

Arteta was more mobile that Gravesen and so Moyes wasted him on the wing, rather than playing him through the middle. He only got games in the middle after he came back from what I consider to be a career wrecking knee injury (in that he was never the same player again). I think he only played in the middle as he had lost that burst of acceleration that allowed him to play on the wing, and his quick feet that allowed him to twist and turn in tight spaces was also gone. His knee was clearly never the same again. He showed at Arsenal just how good a passer of the ball he was. Unfortunately, Moyes never let him put the two sides of his game together and show what he could do in the middle, in his prime.

As to who was better, Gravesen or Arteta, because of the above, I would say they were different players, and that Gravesen was the better central midfielder, but only because we only saw the post-injury Arteta play there.

Either way, two of our best Premier League Era players, and it was a joy to watch them both.

Tony Abrahams
20 Posted 13/11/2017 at 16:48:56
I also thought Arteta was a much better player than Gravesen, but that doesn't mean Tommy was poor.

I think the reason we never got as many points after Gravesen left, Steve, is because the small squad Everton used that season just ran out of puff? I remember going to Villa, thinking that I couldn't see where our next win was ever going to come from, and Osman, and Arteta combined brilliantly for us to win 3-1.

Have to agree with John, about Villarreal, and although Ferguson's goal should have stood, I didn't think we had enough quality, just when we needed it most. We had Villarreal penned in near the end, but the Spaniards were clever, and kept tucking in, so we had to keep giving the ball to Tony Hibbert out wide, and although he had the heart of a lion, he was also a very limited footballer, who was never really ever going to create anything that night?

That Man Utd game was one of my favorite matches under Moyes though, John, and although it was a scrap, it was United who ended up playing with nine men that night. The atmosphere was fantastic that night, and it is why I believe the next managerial appointment is so important, because we need a manager and a style of play that can really engage the crowd.

Goodison has been dead for way too long, but looked what happened against Watford, once the crowd got really involved.

Joe McMahon
21 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:13:25
Why is all this being dragged up? Yes the glory years of Kevin Kilbane, never winning at Anfield, losing to Shrewsbury Town the year they went to the Conference. It's now and the future we should be concerned with.

If I remember correctly, the Collina disallowed Ferguson goal, would have been an equaliser, Everton were never ahead on aggregate at any time. Weeks later it was Dinamo Bucharest 5-1 Everton in the Uefa Cup. That's how good we were in the many Moyes years... we won nowt in 11 of them.

Steve Ferns
22 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:22:05
We finished in the top 8, 9 times out of those 11 seasons though. It was a marked improvement after a long period in the wilderness. Moyes gave us some good days. They were just not great days. For those of us of my age, who start as a very young kid with the team at the very top in the 80s and then watch them slide into oblivion, whilst watching the rise of Man Utd, a team that had been behind us in terms of trophies at least, and had been the laughing stock of the North West, it was nice to be able not be embarrassed to be an Everton fan. It was nice to win more than you lost.

They were good days. And we have some fond memories. We hoped that we could build upon them to have some glory days, and as the foundations Moyes left behind crumble, who can blame us for looking back to a time when we rarely had spells like this (only the start to the season that followed finishing 4th).

Dave Abrahams
23 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:25:18
John Pierce (17), I saw that season pretty much the same as yourself and the Champions League games versus Villarreal. Moyes didn't understand that to keep a clean sheet in the home leg gave you a good advantage. We attacked from the off and were caught out good style, never really recovered – although we were cheated out of a good goal.
John Pierce
24 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:34:54
I was always torn about Tommy G. His best skill dribbling, actually noted in some of the excerpts above, was in fact his biggest weakness too.

Thats were if you put Steve & John Daleys posts together you get the quote from above “Tommy didn’t even know what he was going to do”.

I always got caught up in his madness, I loved it, thought it was ‘very’ Everton. But the amount of times he took on ‘one more player’ after burrowing through a couple killed him and the team.

My memory was he’d always lose it somewhere daft and expose the team to a counter attack, my rage was equal to my love from him. He clearly had ability, but no discipline, never calm but instinctual.

He could get me out of my seat but also easily get me to throw my toys into orbit.

Arteta never reached those extremes, and was calm, metronomic in his play. Sometimes too deliberate, the injury ruined him, thats fair for sure. More vital to Everton and did so for a prolonged time. Deffo the better player if not as emotionally impactful as Tommy.

His high point will always be the Fiorentina game, later than the seaon we are reminiscing about, but masterful that night.

Steve Hogan
25 Posted 13/11/2017 at 17:43:06
Arteta and Cahill, best mates on and off the field, and possibly the 'ginger ones' best ever signings?

Both would walk into the current team of largely anonymous individual's, but I would love to turn back the clock and watch the silky skills of 'Mikel' again.

Loved it when he ran at defence's and 'dropped his shoulder' and sent them totally the wrong way.

We certainly had the best years out of him prior to joining Arsenal. 'Where's the Arteta money Bill'?

Sorry couldn't resist that one.

John Pierce
26 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:07:06
Yeah Bill wtf is that cash?

Steve, apparently Bill ‘gifted' the Arteta money to Usmanov, who gifted it to Moshiri who bought 49.9% of Everton.

Did we sell Arteta by having to pay Arsenal for the pleasure?

Does Arteta actually own EFC by manipulating a Russian billionaire who puppet masters Moshiri?

Have we looked at this the wrong way around for years?

Mikel, where's the Arteta money!? A: In Riquelme's pension fund.

Nitesh Kanchan
27 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:12:58
The Arteta money is in Niasse's locker. Bill will not give it to him or anybody.
Tom Bowers
28 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:18:16
All water under the bridge now but Moyes may or may not have been a class act if he had access to the kind of money that the then''top six'' had during is tenure at Goodison.
Despite this he did make some excellent signings but other were just a big bust. Timmie was as we all know was the signing of the decade in the Prem.
I am sure to that like all managers they had players who didn't see eye to eye and usually it is younger players who cannot take being left out when they feel they are better than others who are chosen.
Only Rooney will know whether he may have stayed under another manager and if the club were doing better at that time and I suppose that will be revealed when he writes his autobiography one day.
Steve Ferns
29 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:29:05
I'd say Gravesen's attributes were his passing. His disguised reverse pass was sublime and wrong footed many a defence to put people through on goal.
Tony Abrahams
30 Posted 13/11/2017 at 18:45:20
Back to that Fiorentina game, and although we played great I thought we lost that tie over in Italy, were it looked to me that we never really had a proper game plan.

I think,this was definitely the best team Moyes had during his time at Everton, but I thought we fell short because Moyes was tactically short?

We might have won that cup that year if we had been a little bit braver or shown a little more nouse, but it was never to be. Glasgow Rangers knocked Fiorentina out on the way to the final, and I've always felt that it should have been us that year. Typical Everton really, so near but so far away!

John Pierce
33 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:00:53
Tony,

It wrankles with me a touch. Everton were a very good and confident side going into that tie. Better that Fiorentina for sure.

At 1-0 down in that game we did something unexpected to my mind under Moyes, we chased the tie believing the away goal would be the killer.

We exposed ourselves again, playing against the the grain and the way we usually played. 1-0 would have been fine, but again Moyes had little experience in knockout European footy.

As you say tactically short.

Jack Convery
34 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:04:58
The quote that stands out for me is Osman - Dave wanted to win the League - and we thought good one. Thankfully the Leicester players didn't have the same attitude and they won the Premier League.

As I've said before, not enough winners or players who actually detest and I mean detest losing. Cahill did and he's had a brilliant career. I just wish we could instill that belief and will to win in the squad we have now, though I actually think some of the kids may have it – I can only hope.

Tony Marsh
35 Posted 13/11/2017 at 19:39:10
Moyes and Miracles eh? It's a miracle Moyes never managed once to win an away game at any of the then the then Big 4 clubs. Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool. Not one win away in God knows how many attempts.

When Deadly Dave left for Man Utd he admitted in public what a shithouse he was. "We feared for our lives coming to Old Trafford when I was Everton manager," he said. "Like taking a knife to a Gunfight." What a Tosser.

The only Miracle Moyes performed was lasting at this club for 11 years. He would probably still be here now shitting his pants if Fergie had not done an old pals act for him. Moyes was a total waste of space, a negative dour anti-football anti-personality type character. I was over joyed when Kill Joy left.

Tony Abrahams
36 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:00:40
I saw a headline today, Tony, that said, "West Ham will be over the moom if I can get them like Everton" says Moyes!

Let's have it right, it can't be argued he never done a great job, but only if it's Bill Kenwright, doing the arguing!

Mike Berry
37 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:07:30
I always liked Tim Cahill as a player. Always think he had a positive effect on team spirit with his attitude. Sadly missing with today's lot. Mirallas, please note.
Ian Tunstead
38 Posted 13/11/2017 at 20:37:52
Tony Marsh, I had to laugh after reading your comment. After all your criticisms of Moyes yet you have been calling for Big Sam to be our next manager. You got your wish, Moyes left and now look where we are. Worked out well didn't it?
Tony Marsh
39 Posted 13/11/2017 at 21:22:34
Ian Tunstead... are you mad??? I don't want Allardyce but in our current situation and a choice of Unsworth, Dyche, Deadly Dave or Fat Sam, I would take Allardyce all day long . What is hard to understand there? You are probably one of the fans calling for Tuchel and Ancelotti when there is absolutely no chance of it happening.

In an ideal world we would attract a top level coach but we are not in an ideal world. Do you seriously believe any Evertonian would want Allardyce here unless it was a necessity and short term?

Looks like I have upset another Deadly Dave Disciple. You would've probably welcomed Moyes back and clapped along like a sea-lion with Kenwright when he was unveiled... Let's just hope Unsworth keeps us out of the bottom 3 then mate.

Ian Tunstead
40 Posted 13/11/2017 at 21:35:32
Tony, "Deadly Dave" consistently finished above big Sam all things being equal or as close to equal as you could get. You hated Moyes style of football or his footballing philosophy as Martinez might say yet fat Sam is a more extreme version of Moyes, so you are just contradicting yourself, clearly there is some sort of mental or emotional blind spot and your biased hatred of Moyes is clouding your judgment .

Those names you mention are not our only choices yet you have called for big Sam. You claim you don't really want him but you have put a lot of time and energy into trying to convince us he is the man for the job. I haven't called for either of the managers you mention. I called for Moyes or to take a chance on Unsworth but, having read some of the other posts from other contributors, I would go for Simione if there was half a chance of getting which there probably is because money talks and we now have money.

But yes you are right about one thing. I would have clapped if Moyes returned because now that he had gone, looking at the situation we were in, it shows what a fantastic job he did.

Neil Quinn
41 Posted 13/11/2017 at 22:14:47
We've never replaced Arteta have we? A proper midfield general who dictated things from the middle of the park & scored some great goals in the process.

Oh how we could do with Arteta & Cahill today. A playmaker & somebody who'll get on the end of crosses & corners.

Jim Jennings
42 Posted 13/11/2017 at 00:01:15
John Daley #10

You're right, all those players were signed in the summer of 2005 but some only arrived after we went out to Villarreal e.g. Ferrari, Valente, Van der Meyde.

I think what Osman is getting at is that we only signed Davies prior to the Champions League qualifiers. He's still wrong because Neville had signed too but I'd forgive him for trying to forget that.

Eric Myles
43 Posted 14/11/2017 at 00:10:49
Jim #42, iirc, Neville only signed 3 days before the Villarreal game? Don't know if he played?
Mike Gaynes
44 Posted 13/11/2017 at 01:32:22
Love the recollections of Timmy Cahill, my all-time favorite Blue not named Sheedy. What a feisty little maniac he was. Will never forget that stretch when all our forwards were hurt and Moyes ad-libbed with Cahill and Fellaini up front, and they scored big goal after big goal. I'm kinda disappointed that Cahill isn't among those interviewed.

John #17, you made me smile with your recollection of Phil Dowd. My all-time favorite ref. Big smile, bit of a belly (when he trimmed down I thought it hurt his performance), last of the old-style refs who could give as good as he gave. Never covered his mouth when he did it, either. Fearless.

Now I know what book I want for Hanukkah!

Darren Hind
45 Posted 14/11/2017 at 09:45:18
Oh for a Tim Cahill now.

I remember given my ticket up for a game at Anfield because I was working. I later found out that the job had fallen through and the only ticket I could get was in their main stand down by the Evertonians.
I always knew what gobshites they were but I was shocked by the degree of their gobshitedness. They had played us off the park they were leading 1-0, they should have been out of site, but instead of watching the game and supporting their team, all around me were looking the other way at the Evertonians and giving them dogs abuse.
Fuck this "I want to see Everton do well" shite you hear them spout. This was toxic, proper hatred, the c**t next to me was the worst of the lot . . .Then about 3 minutes to go we got the dead ball situation they were all dreading, right in front of us.
All I could hear was panic, "Get hold of Cahill" . . "Don't let that fucker Cahill get near this" . .Somebody get hold of that little Ausie bastard".
Ball knocked in and despite the resolute determination of the red camp they could not shackle the tiger "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS GET THE FUCK IN" The blues ranks to our left went fucking mad

My cover was blown, but so was the cover of about a dozen other blues in that section who had all jumped as high as me. All that abuse, All that hatred. the relentless taunting . . They were getting it back big time. If they were hostile before hand they were fucking mental by now. The cunt next to me was screaming for us to be thrown out - deep joy and satisfaction.

It came as no surprise at all that after giving it all game, they were incapable of taking it back. Tough, like kids in a playground we delighted in taunting the fucking life out of them.

Tim Cahill could and did give us some wonderful moments. His goals at grounds like Mordor, Stamford Bridge, Old Trafford, The Etihad, proved he doffed the cap to nobody. What a pity his manager could`nt quite find that same self belief.

I get all Whitney Houston when I think of Tim Cahill, I will always love him

Tony Marsh
46 Posted 14/11/2017 at 09:51:56
Ian Tunstead @ 40

I am shocked at your admission you would welcome David Moyes with open arms and clap like a sea lion if he arrived back here. Considering the treacherous way Deadly Dave disrespected the club and our fans when he left for Man Utd, I can't believe your statement. It's almost treason!!!

Let's forget about the clandestine meetings with the Man Utd board and SAF, let us focus on the snide prick Moyes trying to pinch our best players on the cheap once he landed at Old Trafford. Guns to knife-fight players being lured away to the bright lights by the Grim Reaper Moyes. What a snake-oil salesmen Moyes turned out to be.

How about EFC not receiving an penny in compensation from Man Utd because Moyes, prompted by SAF, did the dirty on us when he went for his illegal meetings with the OT board? How could you side with a traitor like Moyes after what he did?

Why would you want more KITAP1? Why would you like to endure more sucking up and cowering to the big teams coaches while being out thought in all big games?? Why would you want another 100 games without an away win at any of the elite clubs? Never once did we turn up at Anfield to try and beat them. No wonder Kenwright manipulates so many of us with mindsets like yours, mate. It's really frightening how low you would set the bar.

If you want the most recent updates on Moyes the man who almost ruined the biggest club in the world, just ask Sunderland fans who performed best in a relegation fight. Fat Sam or Deadly Dave... I think you will find Sunderland went down under Deadly Dave. Fat Sam kept them up from an almost impossible position.

Steve Ferns
47 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:01:36
Tony, last season was the second time Big Sam has finished above Moyes, in over 15 seasons.
Tony Marsh
48 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:18:46
Steve, the calibre of club Allardyce was at... come off it, mate. Bolton, Blackburn, Yo-yo club Newcastle etc compared to Everton and Man Utd. Are you being serious here???

Moyes has also always been in a higher league position than Niel Warnock as well but what does that prove?? In fact at least Warnock gets teams promoted.

What has Moyes ever achieved in a 20 years managerial career... Not a thing that's what. A blank CV is all Moyes has. All we can do is go like for like at Sunderland... Moyes losses badly.

Steve Ferns
49 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:31:29
Moyes took over an Everton side going down, one that had not finished in the top half for 6 seasons. A club that had a small wage bill and no money for transfers. Bolton spent more money on transfers and wages. The jobs were comparable in that regard. Moyes then dragged us up and kept us in the top half, whilst Allardyce stayed well behind us.

You hate Moyes, and have never said a good word about him. Of course he was far from our greatest manager. But he did a very good job stabilising us and taking us back to repeatedly finish in the top 6, season after season, and established us as the best of the rest.

He laid some very solid foundations for Martinez to have a record breaking season. This did show that Moyes had been far too defensive, and that the team was capable of more than he got out of them, with just a few purchases. But Moyes was a far better manager than you will ever give him credit for.

Tony Marsh
50 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:37:58
So now Steve Ferns, mister Everton himself, is saying Bolton are a comparable club to Everton?!?!

I fucking give up. No more please. This bullshit is ridiculous now. I can't read any more.

Steve Ferns
51 Posted 14/11/2017 at 10:50:57
We were in a proper mess when he took over Tony. We were going down.

Not a mess like the one we supposedly have now. We didn't have a team we had spent £200m to assemble. We had the likes of Ginola, Blomqvist, Gascoinge and numerous other players over 35 years old.

Tony Marsh
52 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:02:29
Who says we were going down? We came nearer to going down under Moyes. We stayed up one season under Moyes with the lowest ever goals and points total in Premier League history.

Everton have never been down in my lifetime. Why are you to say such things.

Steve Ferns
53 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:11:20
I suggest you go and revisit that season Tony, we were an absolute joke and were taking tonked and everyone wanted Smith gone. Or was Smith that one Everton manager you did rate?

The year Moyes stayed up with the lowest points total and goals was not a season we were in any real danger of going down. We were midtable until the last few games when the teams that had actually fought relegation all jumped above us, and we dropped down to 17th. We were never actually in the relegation fight in a proper way. We had been 13th until he lost the last four games in a row. We were actually safe with two games to spare.

James Stewart
54 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:13:23
@45 I would echo all that. Very well put. Given the time I have been watching Everton, Cahill is probably my favourite ever player. Always showed up in the big games. He would still walk into the side now.

Also agree with @49. Moyes is a toe-rag for the way he left but I don't forget the good work he did. Keeping that awful team he inherited up and transforming them into a top 6 side was one of the greatest achievements in EPL history. Like him or not, that team was truly woeful and Moyes is twice the manager Big Sam will ever be.

Tony Abrahams
55 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:14:44
Didn’t Cahill, score the very next week at Anfield in the cup Darren, before Goslings late goal knocked the bastards out at Goodison in the replay?

Liverpool, were a good team then but they never beat Everton once in those three games over a fortnight, and that was one of the only times I was ever really proud of Everton, during Moyes’s reign at Everton.

I remember the replay at Goodison, and whilst I was watching I was thinking how brave we had been, simply because we never had a centre forward, and nobody with any real pace to run in behind and trouble Liverpool, that night.

The reason I thought we was brave was mainly because of “little Timmy Cahill”, he fought for every ball, both in the air, and on the ground, he never gave them an inch, and gave us the fight we needed to stay in the game.

Stay in the game we did and we even got a bit of luck against them for once when Gerard pulled up, and then Lucas was sent off, but Cahill, was the man for me because you could tell he loved the fight, and this really troubled the Liverpool players on that particular great night!

Steve Ferns
56 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:18:04
You really noticed Cahill when he was not in the side. We were far too nice a team without him. With him, he led by example and set the tone for the scrapping. He never once gave anything less than 100%. If you use twitter, you'll see he regularly tweets about the blues and still regards us as his team. Top man.
Tony Marsh
57 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:28:24
Steve @ 53,

What is your argument here? You admit that under Moyes Everton survived and finished 4th from bottom with the lowest ever points and goals tally in the history of football. Lowest ever goals tally in Everton history but it doesn't count because we never went down. WTF... I'm speechless..

Doesn't all this this just prove Moyes was a poor manager at a big club that never gets relegated? I'm sure Moyes signed some absolute shite as well... Simon Davies, Kevin Killbane, Per Krøldrup being my favs along with re-signing Naysmith and Wier.

Yeah... brilliant manager was our Davey!

Steve Ferns
58 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:30:21
@Tony #52 - the lowest ever points total to stay up was West Brom in 2004-05 with 34. Moyes's17th, we had 39. Teams got less than 39 before that season and only one team stayed up with more than that since. We also did not have the lowest goals tally. You need to check your facts.

As for being a poor manager, Walter Smith was not a poor manager. He did not do well with Everton, but we all know his history in Scotland. Moyes took Everton up the table by around 10 places and kept them there. He did a good job. At times he did a very good job. A couple of seasons he did a very bad job. But mostly he did good, 9 times out of 11 seasons for me.

Tony Marsh
59 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:43:34
Steve, I'm going from memory. It was awful, it was bleak, it was Dour. The football under Moyes was always awful.

I can't remember one game where we ever battered anyone. It was all grim struggles to the death. I do remember going to Pompey one season around 2008-09 I think it was. We won 1-0 Osman fluked one. I remember driving back thinking, "What the fuck am I doing watching this twat's teams?" This was the game were Deadly unveiled his new ground-breaking master piece formation... the 4-6-0 line up.

It was light-years ahead of Unsworth doing it at Lyon. Fantastic it was... I was so proud to watch Everton shit themselves every time they took to the field. Big club or small club – Davey knew how to raise a white flag and invite teams on.

The season Moyes left, I used to give my tickets away as I couldn't stomach it any more. Being dragged around IKEA and Travis on a Saturday afternoon by the missus was more enjoyable than watching us play. This was the Moyes I remember... the one who shat on us when he left..

Don't waste your time trying to convince me any different about Deadly Dave... I was right all along about Moyes and what a snivelling Git he was. He proved it when he went to Man Utd.

Steve Ferns
60 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:51:59
2003-04 was terrible, Tony. I would agree with you on that, and the terrible football on the pitch that season.

I would disagree that it was always terrible. Moyes always reset to a clean sheet after a bad run, no matter who was next. Playing bottom of the league? Doesn't matter lads, clean sheet is all that matters.

When we were going well though, he did loosen the reins and I think we played some tremendous football at times. Particularly Osman, Pienaar, and Arteta linking up. Yes it was never sustained, it was always flashes, and as soon as we had a bad result we reset and went for the clean sheet again.

A lot of your criticisms of Moyes are valid, Tony. They're just a bit over the top. He did the job we needed him to do, taking us back up the table and keeping us there. He really should have gone a bit sooner, not after 11 years and the way he did. Once we started paying him silly money in wages, that was too much for me, he never deserved that salary.

You can't write his tenure off as poor though. I'd say he did a good job and took as far as he could and we should be grateful for what he did. It is also right that he was never considered for the job this time around.

Ian Tunstead
61 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:58:18
Tony, you are contradicting yourself again, on the one hand you make out like we are a massive club and that it was an insult to compare the Everton and Bolton sides of 10 years ago but on the other hand we are too small to attract top managers and you are actually calling for fat Sam who is a Bolton standard manager. Make your mind up. As for being shocked by me welcoming Moyes back after the "Trecherous" way he left. I don't recall you saying anything of the sort when Rooney came back? What Rooney did was far worse. He was supposed to be a boyhood blue. The fans wanted him to stay. Moyes on the other hand owed us nothing and many of the fans such as yourself were trying to push him out and gave him no credit and his chairman never gave him any support in terms of money so I'm not surprised he jumped ship when his contract came to an end.

As soon as he signed for United then his allegiance and loyalties were to United. He never pinched any players, if anything we robbed United. He was the one who signed Fallaini for us and he did us a favour taking him to United because we used the money to buy Lukaku. And Felliani wanted to leave anyway we would never have got that kind of money had Moyes not come in for him. And with hindsight it might have been best if we had sold Baines at the time, he has been losing it ever since.

As for Sunderland, like you say it was an almost impossible task to keep Sunderland up, it was a small miracle and thats why Fat Sam got out as he knew he would not be able to repeat his achievements. Who ever took over Sunderland next was going down either way. Sunderland would not get 2 miracles back to back. But the season we finished 17 and then lost Rooney and Graveson half way through the season Moyes pulled off an even greater miracle by leading us to finish 4th and then help us to finish in the top 7 consistently for the best part of a decade with far less money than most of his rivals and competitors.

And as for almost ruining the greatest club in the wild, Van Gall spent another few hundred million and didn't do much better, mourinho came in and spent another shed load of money and hardly pulled up trees in his first season. The only thing close to treason were those pushing to get Moyes out, because if we go down this season they will have had a hand in it. And that includes you Tony as the chief Moyes basher at the time.

Jay Wood
62 Posted 14/11/2017 at 11:59:55
As ever Tony Marsh @ 57, you display the imbecility of your position with your selective memory, settling on one outrider example and dismissing all counter examples that undermine your singular claim.

Yes, season 2003-04 under Moyes saw us finish in 17th place. We were NEVER, EVER in that season under threat of relegation. As Steve Ferns correctly points out, for most of the season we were mid-table. Following a 3-1 home win over Spurs, away draws to Leeds and Chelsea, with 4 games to go we were 13th on 39 points . and the team switched off.

Everton lost their 4 remaining games - H Blackburn 0-1 (finished 15th), away Wolves 1-2 (relegated, bottom of the table), H Bolton 1-2 (finished 8th) and A Man City 1-5 (which saw City jump above us on the final day of the season to finish 15th).

Certainly, as manager, Moyes must take some blame for such a fall away. I recall in interview after the City mauling he said this poor run had told him a lot about many players, who he needed to ship out and what was needed to improve the side.

And given that (as opening post recalls) Moyes did just that by finishing 4th next season (having finished 7th in his first full season the season before finishing 17th) only highlights how deeply prejudiced you are against Moyes, incapable as you are of acknowledging the very evident good things he did in his time at the club.

As I have consistently said in the wake of his departure to Manure, I do not want the man any where near the club or employed in any capacity ever again for the words and actions he directed towards Everton.

It is not a hypocrisy for me to state that, whilst simultaneously being capable of acknowledging we had some good times under Moyes and he did many good things.

I am sure I am not alone in noticing one particular quote in the opening post by Leon Osman on that 'CL - yer 'aving a larf' season:

"...we had David driving it home all the time, because David would turn around and say he wanted to finish first. And we would all be like, ‘Yeah, okay, good one.' But that was him. He brought not just a winning mentality, but a real desire to not take second best."

A counter to your oft repeated 'knife to a gun fight' example which I'm sure you'll readily dismiss as it shows Moyes as a determined winner which doesn't fit your image of him.

Tony Marsh
63 Posted 14/11/2017 at 12:12:56
Ian @ 61

For the record I have never said Everton are a big club but we are way bigger than Bolton mate. It's you and Steve who don't know this. You think we are the version of Everton Moyes presented to the world. That's not me.

I don't want Allardyce but out of the choices we were given due to the betting markets, I picked Sam Allardyce short-term over Moyes or Dyche or Unsworth... Best of a bad lot, in my opinion. You on the other hand think Ancelotti or that calibre will come here? Very delusional.

Moyes was the catalyst for Rooney leaving Everton and looking back, I don't blame Wayne for wanting away from Moyes..Rooney not good enough for a regular spot in a negative Moyes team but scores a hat-trick for Man Utd on his debut in the Champions League. According to Moyes, Wayne wasn't ready for the spotlight just yet... ha ha... Go figure that out.

Please stop making things up to further your arguments, Ian. I know some of you still have pics on your wall with Davey in his kilt with his top off but please, the man was a traitor. As bad as Smith and Martinez were they showed dignity, class and respect when the left us.. Davey shat all over his disciples...

Steve Ferns
64 Posted 14/11/2017 at 12:16:32
Some good points there Jay.

It also goes to the core of the manager talking to the press. Would you really be upset with a Moyes-esque manager dulling down expectations of the fans, to take the pressure off the players, if in the secrecy of the dressing room, he is in fact building them up and trying to give them the belief they can win. Is this not what Alex Ferguson always did so well?

Nick Entwistle
65 Posted 14/11/2017 at 13:09:35
Danny Cadbury as fleeting in this article as he was as a player...

James Hughes
66 Posted 14/11/2017 at 13:58:50
Moyes' Everton survived and finished 4th from bottom with the lowest ever points and goals tally in the history of football

Tony #57 That wasn't actually his claim and would be untrue, How about QPR 11/12 stayed up on 37 points, scoring less goals.

I will wholeheartedly agree with opinion of Moyes, thanks but never again . Big Sam should not even be allowed to wear a blue polo top never mind get anywhere near the home dugout

Ian Tunstead
67 Posted 14/11/2017 at 14:52:10
Tony, talk about lowering standards, you call me delusional for aiming high wanting a top manager but were you not delusional in thinking Moyes should be aiming to win the league with the shite he inherited, your whole argument is a contradiction. You are delusional if you think fat Sam is a better manager than Moyes. And 10 to 13 years ago when Moyes first took over we might have been a bigger club than Bolton but they were a better side and in a stronger position with more resources, so fat Sam had a head start and was at an advantage in a lot of ways to Moyes yet Moyes and Everton eventually left Sam and Bolton behind.

It's one thing to reluctantly say you would have Fat Sam over the other managers but it's something else when you are fighting the cause and defending Sam to the hilt especially when he is so similar to Moyes. How can you criticise Moyes and his methods so much but defend Sam when he is far worse in every respect with on and off the pitch, for all Moyes faults he is not a corrupt fraudster. There is no consistency in your argument. If you are going to criticise Moyes and you don't want him fine but to praise Fat Sam in the same breath is a joke.

As for Rooney, he became the hottest prospect in world football under Moyes mentoring so he must have done something right. Rooney could have easily gone off the rails like so many other fantastic talents before him and after. Rooney now appreciates Moyes and the discipline that he tried to instil in him. Rooney is now burnt out and a shadow of his former self and only in his early 30s Moyes tried to manage him to prevent that from happening by using him sparingly. He would have been finished in his late 20s like Owen if you had your way.

Darren Hind
68 Posted 14/11/2017 at 15:40:49
I feel sure Moyes was talking about City when he made the "Knife to a gunfight" statement. My take on it was, he was trying to blow his own trumpet because he won there three years running, but fuck me did it back fire on him. He'll never be allowed to live it down.

Football under Moyes was nowhere near as bad as it's made out, certainly not as ugly as it was under Koeman. Some of the play from Pienaar, Baines Osman and Arteta was as good as anything in the league... but he would always revert to type and shut up shop just as we looked like we were getting somewhere.

Moyes assembled a really good team on a shoe string, No two ways, but he let himself and us down badly, with his expectation management, his lack of real belief and his constant whinging about how hard done by he was. Burned his bridges forever with his behaviour when he thought he'd hit the big time.

I worry that Kenwright will have a big say (maybe even the final say) on who our next manager will be. He has succeeded in creating some of the richest failures in sport with his last three selections.

Tony Marsh
69 Posted 14/11/2017 at 15:51:22
Ian I don't give a shit about Allardyce I don't defend him or put him down I don't give it my energy. I didn't like fans calling him a crook when he hasn't been charged with anything or banned has he so he ain't a crook.?He got scammed .The dickheads who run the FA jumped the gun sacking him.

Like I try and keep telling people I won't discuss or put forward names of managers the will definitely not give us the time of day..It is not being ambitious to call for Anchelotti or Tuchel or Guardiola it is being silly and deluded.

We will have to disagree on Moyes.He had poor man magement skills.Moyes even banned poor Howard Kendall from Finch Farm. Many players disliked Deadly and like I say he never got a result at any of the top clubs.. Something you can't say about Fat Sam.

Moyes along with BK dumbed you all down for 12 years.Its obvious the residule effects are still in some of you.

Tony Marsh
70 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:01:23
Darren Hind No mate don't try and re write History for Darling Dave..Moyes was referring to us going to Old Trafford while he Moyes was manager..He said Coming to this place(OT)
We used to fear for our lives..(Well the fans didn't)..It was like taking a Knife to a Gun fight !!!.. Deadly Daves cowardly words admitting shitting himself taking Everton to Old Trafford..

Don't dare try to spin it and put it on City..Do you think I would forget such Cowardly utterances and shitbag mentality from David Moyes.? No chance mate.Typical of the Davey Disciples prepared to alter history for him. Absolute Joke.

Alan Bodell
71 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:17:06
C'mon Tony, don't sit on the fence mate, do you rate the service Moyes gave us or not ?
John G Davies
72 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:21:59
Tony Marsh,

The quote from Moyes about going to Old Trafford included the pearl of wisdom, "When we came to United we were happy to just get out alive."

Tony Marsh
73 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:30:50
Alan@ 71
Give Moyes credit were due he made some brilliant signings for little money.Cahill,Coleman ,Arteta. The problem I have is the awfull parts of the Moyes era far outweigh the good. The football was mind numbing to say the least. The mindset was pity full and defeatist. The record against the then big 4
was diabolical.. To top it all off he did a deal with Utd behind the clubs back and shit all over his followers..

David Moyes got the shock of his life at Man Utd..No more cozy love ins with a chairman who massaged his ego.
No dumbed down supporters accepting mediocrity as the norm..Very high expectations
Exposed Moyes for what he is.A kick and rush Championship manager without a single accolade to his name in 20 years of management..

Example look what Eddie Howe has done with Bournemouth.

Jay Wood
74 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:32:31
Tony Marsh @ 70:

"... don't try and re write History for Darling Dave. Moyes was referring to us going to Old Trafford while he Moyes was manager...It was like taking a Knife to a Gun fight!!!

"Don't dare try to spin it and put it on City. Do you think I would forget such Cowardly utterances and shitbag mentality from David Moyes?"

No, you wouldn't forget Tony. It justifies in your mind another reason to bash Moyes with (and you DO understand Moyes left the left 4 1/2 seasons ago, don't you..?).

But you do make the wrong association as this link shows.

Link

And BTW, that quote was one line in a 10 minute pre-match presser. I and many others understood what Moyes alluded to (the difference in spending power and quality of recruitment City were just starting to wield) and didn't take such deep umbrage at it as some (like yourself) took and continue to take.

A lot of hate and anger in you Tony that one line of many spoken 6 years ago still winds you up so.

Tony Marsh
75 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:36:48
Jay @ 70

I don't hate anyone or have any anger issues, mate. Far from it. I merely stating a fact to Darren Hind.

I gather you must also be one of the fans who were hoodwinked for years by Deadly Dave... That's okay – we all make mistakes... It's just that, where Moyes is concerned, he never had me fooled for a second.

Chill, Jay. Peace and love to you, my brother Blue.

John Charles
76 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:38:22
Would I have Moyes back – no chance.
Was he better than Martinez or Koeman – absolutely!
Was he better than his predecessors – absolutely!
Was he better than the likes of Fat Sam – absolutely!
Do we want a return to "defend for your life, boring attritional football – absolutely not!!!
Lawrence Green
77 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:50:09
Ian (#61),

You wrote:

"The only thing close to treason were those pushing to get Moyes out, because if we go down this season they will have had a hand in it."

How can that be so, Ian? David Moyes didn't sign a new contract as he had been promised the Man Utd gig by his friend and hero, Sir Alex Ferguson. By all means defend the Ginger one if you must but please refrain from blaming the supporters for his leaving Everton – it was his choice and his choice alone.

Tony Marsh
78 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:51:36
John @ 76

Sorry to pull you up, mate, but wasn't Martinez first season the highest points total we ever had in the Premier League? Most goals also... I would say that is better than Moyes..Please don't say Moyes finished 4th – it was a fluke. Lowest ever points total to achieve it. Then look what happened...

Ray Roche
79 Posted 14/11/2017 at 16:57:51
Darren Hind #68

Good post. People forget that, towards the end of his tenure we played some excellent football but we didn't have the squad size to withstand injuries or allow rotation. You tend to play good stuff with Arteta, Pienaar, Coleman, Cahill, Osman, Baines etc. in your side.
Just as an aside,in the Times on Sunday they reported that, when Moyes left Sunderland, he chose to forgo a £3m severance payout because the club were going to make 70 employees redundant. Like him or loathe him, that is a very decent gesture, especially when you recall Martinez screwing us for £10m for being an abject failure. OK, he must be able to afford it but just the same

Ian Tunstead
80 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:01:46
Tony the fact is it was like bringing a knife to a gunfight, Utd had every conceivable advantage. Better players better management, coaching ,youth set up money you name it. Put it this way, the gap between Utd and us was far bigger than the gap between us and Bolton, but once again you are showing your inconsistency. So do you think we should have been beating Utd? Yet in your eyes we are not good enough to attract a top manager? So clearly using some logic if we are not good enough to attract the top managers then we are probably not going to be as good as Utd or good enough to beat the very top teams.

And you haven't answered the question, where you not delusional and was Moyes not ambitious enough when you thought he should be trying to win the league? Either way that has been proven to be a fallacy as Leon Osmen says Moyes wanted to win the league. And it's clear from many of the other quotes regarding how many players he was going to buy when he had us thinking we had no money that what he said in public and to the media and what he said and did behind closed doors are 2 different things.

As for Howard Kendall we do not know all of the facts. Bill Shankly was also banned from LFC training, it's not good but they felt it had to be done. I don't want to speak ill of the dead or an Everton legend but why was it that Gary Speed left Everton? The rumour is that Kendals alcoholism was having a detrimental effect on the team and they fell out. Again we don't have all the facts but one of the facts we do have is that it wasn't like Moyes was banning every Everton legend so maybe there was good reason. And so what if many players disliked Moyes many players didn't like Brian Clough or Alex ferguson, and were is the evidence that many players didn't like him? Either way he is not there to be liked he's there to get results and get the best out of his team. You are grasping at straws Tony, it is clear you have deep personal bias against Moyes. If you were more reasonable you might have a little more credibility but you are just further confirming and asserting the caricature that you have created for yourself

Tony Marsh
81 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:03:42
Ray Roche it was Moyes fault Sunderland went down. I don't recall Martinez taking us in to the Championship.

In Moyes's press conference when he took the Sunderland job what he said was a disgrace. Moyes raised the white flag and basically said we are already down... Disgrace full mate.

Just what the Makems wanted to hear... Deadly Dave at his Deadly worst!

Tony Marsh
82 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:07:21
Ian Tunstead — I am laughing at you, mate... Regardless of who you are playing in any League, you don't raise the white flag. Other teams went to Old Trafford and Anfield and got wins

If, like you and Moyes, we just accepted defeat as inevitable, what is the point in any of it? I'm still laughing that you agree with the guns and knives quote... Oh dear!

Jay Wood
83 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:09:54
Tony @ 75.

"I don't hate anyone or have any anger issues..."

Hmmm, I think there will be more than just me quietly amused by that line (and subsequent offerings of peace of love) given your posting history and rhetoric in virtually every offering you make on TW.

As ever, you try and paint things black or white when pompously stating: "I gather you must also be one of the fans who were hoodwinked for years by Deadly Dave."

Look back at what I wrote @ 62. It's called having a balanced view Tony. And no, that doesn't mean having a rabid anti-Moyes chip on each shoulder gives you balance or credibility.

I am able to acknowledge Moyes did many good things in his time with us. I don't wish him anywhere near the club in any employed capacity ever again, given his words and deeds on joining Manure.

Simples.

Not big enough to acknowledge the link I offered @ 74 that rather undermines your claims about your elephantine memory re: the Moyes 'knife to a gunfight' quote.

Why am I not surprised?

Peace and love, fellow Brother Blue. Titter-titter.

Tony Marsh
84 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:13:37
John G Davies @ 72 I hear you brother.. Another golden nugget from the Moyes repertoire..I had worded incorrectly..
Ian Tunstead
85 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:17:41
Lawrence, Tony was the one who accused me of treason for wanting Moyes back, are you going to pull him up on his comment? But I still stand by my comment. I noticed that over Moyes last couple of seasons this site became very toxic towards Moyes in no small part thanks to people Tony Marsh, and when people like myself were ousted. The site became a one way argument with little balance and people like Tony went unchallenged and from that I noticed that this negativity transferred its way into the pubs and the stadium. If you think David Moyes and the players don't read these fan sites and hear what people are saying about them you are kidding yourself.

If I was Moyes I would have been on my bike as well having read some of the vitriol about him. People like Tony helped to push Moyes out and now look where we are. Well done Tony, thanks for the pearls of wisdom, let's get fat Sam in to finish the job and put the final nail in the coffin.

Ian Tunstead
86 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:17:41
Lawrence, Tony was the one who accused me of treason for wanting Moyes back, are you going to pull him up on his comment? But I still stand by my comment. I noticed that over Moyes last couple of seasons this site became very toxic towards Moyes in no small part thanks to people Tony Marsh, and when people like myself were ousted. The site became a one way argument with little balance and people like Tony went unchallenged and from that I noticed that this negativity transferred its way into the pubs and the stadium. If you think David Moyes and the players don't read these fan sites and hear what people are saying about them you are kidding yourself.

If I was Moyes I would have been on my bike as well having read some of the vitriol about him. People like Tony helped to push Moyes out and now look where we are. Well done Tony, thanks for the pearls of wisdom, let's get fat Sam in to finish the job and put the final nail in the coffin.

Tony Marsh
87 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:18:40
Jay Woods I'm getting bored with fans trying to convince me Moyes was a good manager and a decent all round good egg when he wasn't..Let's put it out there for you all shall I.
What the fuck has Moyes ever won in football?? Don't forget he was at world biggest Club Man Utd and spent a ton of cash he must of won something.. Every manager does at Man Utd Answers on a post card please..PS.I will accept promotion as winning something..
Ian Tunstead
88 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:23:53
Tony, I and many others have been laughing at you for years, so much so that people on here think you are a made up person. You missed my point again. What Moyes said to the media and what he said to the players are 2 different things, but the truth is what he said was a fact. And so what if other smaller teams beat Utd, did they finish above Everton at the end of the season? No they didn't. Iat all very well and good beating Utd but then finishing in the bottom 5.
Danny Broderick
89 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:28:23
Tony,

Moyes won a league with Preston.

Carl Taylor
90 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:30:03
Ian, uncalled for lambasting of Tony and the others who saw through Moyes as a negative, happy with mediocrity manager who established the plucky little Everton mentality. You say look at us now, tell me where we would have been if Moyes was still here? I'll wager my home that we would have been no better and would probably still be praising chairman Bill as the greatest because he gives all he can to keep us in the premier league and that is as ambitious as Moyes and Bill wanted to be at plucky, little Everton. I'll also state Lukaku would never have come to Everton under Moyes, as he ruined every decent striker he had by trying to turn them into defenders.
Jay Wood
91 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:34:02
Tony @ 87.

The devil is in the detail. My name is Jay WOOD (no 's' - so as not to confuse me with Jay WOODS (note the 's') who also posts on here.

And the detail of our exchange in this thread is clearly going way over you Zen-like head.

Typically, you're inventing and attributing a dialogue to me which simply has not taken place between us.

We are not and have not discussed your very simplistic claim that I (or others) are trying to convince you Moyes was a good manager. A completely different discussion (and with you, a totally futile exercise any way).

I have simply corrected a series of errors and incorrect claims you have made in this thread. I could add another one. There is no evidence that I am aware that Moyes 'banned' Howard Kendall from visiting Finch Farm as you claim. The story on that front is that Moyes simply never invited HK to visit, unlike Martinez who graciously did.

Not as 'tabloid shocking' as your claim though, is it Tony?

Carl Taylor
92 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:35:52
Danny, if he was still Everton manager he might have had a chance to win the league two championship again. Can we move on from plucky little Everton man, who declared within weeks of leaving Evertin that they were standing in their players career paths by not letting them move to a bigger club. He is history and a trophyless history at that.
Tommy Carter
93 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:06
There were plenty of good times under Moyes and he build one particular side in 2008-09 that was the best team we've had in the premier league era.

The problem with Moyes is that he didn't have the mentality to bring us success and he hit his ceiling with the FA cup final appearance and 5th place finish in 2009.

As others have mentioned, 2007-08 was our best chance and with a fully fit and firing Yak we should have made top 4 that season and won a trophy.

One issue we had was Cahill being injured for the most of the season. His scoring rate that term when playing was fantastic.

Another issue was typical Moyes. He signed Baines and wouldn't play him, preferring an out of position Lescott at left back. He signed Jags and tried for the first half of the season to play him as a defensive midfielder. It was only when forced into making the necessary changes that he stumbled on Baines Jags and Lescott in the same defence that made all 3 England internationals and earned Lescott a big money move.

The game away to Fiorentina was a microcosm of all Moyes failings. The tie was over on that evening after a truly woeful display by us. We looked a million miles from a team that wanted a result that night. Sure we came close in the second leg to pulling it back together but it's easier to motivate an underdog, isn't it?

Ultimately he left us at the correct time if not a season or 2 too late. It's been the failing of the board that they have not found a successor who could improve us from where Moyes left us, especially given improved finance.

Right now I could only dream of a midfield with the skill and creativity of Arteta, Pienaar and Osman.

Danny Broderick
94 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:30
Moyes has his flaws, but to depict his time here as being all bad is way off the mark. Just look at where we were when he came, and the position we were in when he left.

He inherited an ageing squad of journeymen. He turned us into a good solid team. He was a bit too defensive at times for my liking - especially away against the big teams. But I felt we had the best defence in the league when we had a back 5 of Howard, Coleman, Jags, Lescott and Baines.

When the Yak was at his best, we played some lovey stuff. We had Baines and Pienaar down the left, and the likes of Osman, Cahill and Arteta linked up really well with Pienaar and the Yak.

We were just missing some of the final ingredients - mainly a couple of strikers and a right winger. I have my doubts as to whether we would have ever won anything with Moyes at the helm. But no-one can say he did a bad job at Everton - he just didn’t win anything...

Darren Hind
95 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:37
Tony Marsh,

It was a throw away remark, but seeing as you have been such a know all about it and the fact that you always seem to be wrong, I decided to do some research... and guess what? Go ahead... Guess what: You (and John G Davies) are wrong, yet again – Just Google it

I don't know why I bothered checking, One of you was still pleading for more time for Koeman right up to when he was told to clear his desk and the other has steadfastly campaigned to get "fireman Sam" in – Something you backtracked on as soon as you realised he wasn't coming

The "knife to a gunfight" quote was said about Manchester City. You are the one who is rewriting history, lad.

Oh and don't "darling Dave" me. I campaigned harder than you to get rid of him, but I wont be denying credit to Baines, Pienaar, Osman and Arteta for the football you want to pretend they didn't play.

Tony Marsh
96 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:38:43
Ian @ 88
How.many of those laughing at me were still laughing when Moyes stabbed you all in the back with his Knife. No pun intended..You accept the mentality of that loser .I wont ever..Guns to a knife fight ha ha you've made my day mate.
Tony Marsh
97 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:46:53
Come on Darren it doesn't matter who Moyes said Guns and Knives about does it..It's the fact he thinks like that and had our squad quaking in there boots before games. I don't like Everton teams to display fear or to much respect to any side we face..I want our club to be a reflection of our City..People from Liverpool and Merseyside aren't timid cowardly negative folk are they?? Scared to take on a bully or two. Moyes had you all believing we were inferior to Manchester and should be thankfull we had him as our coach...Not me mate.You lap it up and defend it all you like.I admire a man who sticks to his principles.
John G Davies
98 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:51:16
Some of the teams who won league games at Old Trafford during Moyes time as manager of Everton.

Bolton
Blackburn (twice)
Boro
Fulham
Villa

Some of them didn't even have a knife in the gunfight.

Ian Tunstead
99 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:53:59
Carl it was uncalled for for Tony to lambaste me for foreseeing the plight of Everton once Moyes left. I would rather settle for mediocrity than seeing us drop like a stone into the championship and into oblivion like Portsmouth Leeds and Blackburn. The truth is I wasnt settling for mediocrity I was waiting patiently for the Premiere League buble to burst of for us to come in for some money or for some good young talent coming through to help propel us up the league and hopefully do the impossible like Leicester.

I didn't see Moyes teams as negative for the most part I saw them as pragmatic and effective given the poor talent at our disposal in the early seasons but that improved season after season. Mourinho is every bit as negative so what? but he has far better players and far more resources. But il tell you where we would have been had Moyes had the Koemen money or even the Martinez money we would be in a silmilar position to Spurs. And il also tell you about Lukaku, he only came to Everton because he was convinced by his national team mate Mirallas who Moyes signed so I think Lukaku would have come who ever was the manager. Another myth and fallacy spread by people like Tony that Moyes ruined strikers. We never had any money to buy a decent striker. You need 30+ million to get a decent striker or be lucky to bring one through the academy like a Rooney or a Kane. I don't remember Moyes ruining Rooney I remember Rooney becoming the best prospect in the world under Moyes and then recaptured his form again when Moyes was manager at Utd. And I don't remember many players leaving Moyes or Everton to go into bigger and better things.

Tony you don't speak for me or every evertonian. Moyes never stabbed me in the back, we or should I say people like you stabbed him in the back

John G Davies
100 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:54:27
I was wrong in what, Darren?

Are you saying Moyes didn't make the statement I posted?

Ian Tunstead
101 Posted 14/11/2017 at 17:56:19
So inferior that you want fat Sam as manager
Darren Hind
102 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:01:59
Stop digging, Tony. You are embarrassing yourself again.

It was crucial when you came on all knowledgeable telling me I was re-writing history saying it was Man City... now your ignorance has been exposed again... it doesn't matter ?

Moyes's team had three straight victories at the Etihad. Even somebody who puts his fingers in his ears and says "La La La" as often you can't deny that.

You want to deny that Pienaar, Baines, Arteta and Osman played some fantastic football, that's up to you... but thousands of Evertonians saw it and no amount of nonsense you spout will alter history.

Perhaps they weren't booting it far enough for your liking ?

Ian Tunstead
103 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:06:08
Tony you sound like one of those fans that thinks that if Everton are winning then that makes you personally a winner. And so according to you if I am realistic and not delusional and accept that Utd are a better side than us just as you are not delusional to think we can attract the top managers then if I have this mentality it is a losers mentality then I must be a loser as well for thinking in such a defeatist way which must mean you are a loser as well for thinking we can't attract the top managers? Which is it?
Tony Marsh
104 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:08:33
Ian come in mate who in there right mind would want Allardyce unless for 999 emergency reasons? What you and others are doing is like asking a vegaterian if he had to eat meat would they prefer Lamb ,Chicken or Steak.Once they have selected let's say steak then you shout you said you was a vegetarian..It's pathetic lad.

I would of taken Howard Wilkinson or Steve McClaren over Koeman.When Unsworth started fucking up I shouted get Fireman Sam in now before it to late..It satire,it's sarcasm it's desperation call it what you like because Who I want s managerirellavent .
If a few more results go the wrong way for Unsworth Big Sam might be all we have left so be careful with your words mate..Fat Sam might be the guy who gives you PL survival.

Ray Roche
105 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:13:25
Tony Marsh #81

Tony, the fact that Moyes took Sunderland down is beyond question. He had taken over a shite team with little money, allegedly, but my point is that Moyes refused the £3m that he was entitled to and for the most admirable of reasons. Continue to don your blinkers and slag him off until the Grim Reaper appears at YOUR bedside (or pitchside) but try to accept for once that some aspects of the man's character may be honourable.

Tony Marsh
106 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:13:34
Ian I am wiping the floor with you here mate .Please give it up. Its all nonsensical hyperthetical ramblings now..I'm sorry if I upset you over Darling Dave but it is what I believe and I have never waivered in that belief. I don't like negative defeatist managers managing Everton.
Bobby turned out useless but give him his due he believed we could beat anyone .
Steve Carse
107 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:15:34
Moyes was a decent manager. His main defect was in becoming more and more risk averse the closer he got to winning something. Witness our hammering Fiorentina at GP until we got level -- and then not having another shot in anger thereafter. Witness leading in the FAC semi against an abysmal Liverpool outift and then pulling everyone back into our own half whenever that pathetic Liverpool side had the ball. Witness being given a one goal advantage in the FAC final against Chelsea and then camping in our own half for the remaining 89 minutes.
And there are many more examples.
He had no real belief in himself; and in the end his players didn't believe in themselves either.
Brent Stephens
108 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:17:38
Keep digging, Tony, and you'll be in OZ. All you have to do is be reasonable and accept some positive aspects of Moyes - Fat Sam as a manager?! Nobody holding their breath.
Jay Harris
109 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:19:36
I don't like the way Moyes behaved when he went to United or the manner of the way he left us but noone can argue that he is not a good manager.

He kept us in the top six over 10 years with breadcrumbs to spend, won a number of manager of the year titles and is still more successful than Mourhino and Van Gaal over the number of games he managed United till they sacked him and that was despite the poisoned Chalice that SAF left his successor..

Ian Tunstead
110 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:29:47
Haha Tony you are hilarious, no one can deny that! Wiping the floor with me? And I thought It was me who was delusional. I hope you don't wipe your arse so ineffectively. Looking at the comments it looks like there's only one or 2 people who have backed your argument. Keep em coming Tony this is classic Tony Marsh and why we read ToffeeWeb. It's an honour to take the piss out of you.
Frank Crewe
111 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:31:46
You look at the players Moyes brought to the club. Howard, Baines, Coleman, Jags, Lescott, Pienaar, Cahill, Mirallas (when he was good) Arteta, Yakubu, etc, compared to what Koeman with all the cash he was given it's obvious who the better manager was. Moyes main problem was getting a consistent striker. If he could have had Lukaku in his side we would have won stuff.
Steve Ferns
112 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:37:06
1987 1
1988 4
1989 8
1990 6
1991 9
1992 12
1993 13
1994 17
1995 15
1996 6
1997 15
1998 17
1999 14
2000 13
2001 16
2002 15

2003 7
2004 17
2005 4
2006 11
2007 6
2008 5
2009 5
2010 8
2011 7
2012 7
2013 6

2014 5
2015 11
2016 11
2017 7

Look at the numbers. Look how badly we slid after winning the league. Look how much we were in the wilderness, that one brief 6th under Royle. Then a sustained period of consecutive top 8 finishes. And then inconsistency that followed. Moyes clearly did a good job, you can argue about the quality of the football and how exciting it all was, but the stability and the results are beyond question. I'm not saying Moyes was great, he wasn't. But I will not have it that he was poor, as these are not the results of a poor manager.

David Barks
113 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:38:16
Tony,

You can't say what a piece of trash Moyes is while calling for Fat Sam to be our savior. All your arguments against Moyes easily apply to Sam, except Sam has actually achieved even less than Moyes.

Moyes was sacked at United, correct. But he did not spend loads of cash. That actually happened after he was gone by the following managers. And Moyes was actually getting the same amount of points as his successors.

Moyes didn't win away from home agains the "Top 4" at the time, but he did repeatedly stick it to City. He did have us in Europe multiple times, Champions League once. The club itself at that time was financially a joke, no money being spent at all. He took players and formed a team that was competitive, far more competitive than they had been in the years before his arrival.

Allardyce meanwhile was known for some of the worst football to grace England while at Bolton. Since then he hasn't really done much else. And he was rightfully sacked as England manager. He should have never been given that job to begin with.

Tony Marsh
114 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:47:16
Brent, Jay,Ian etc
I have no doubts you are all great Evertonians and have your own beliefs and club favourites. What really astounds me is the amount of fans still prepared to defend Deathly Dave despite the way he schemed and plotted with Utd for his dream job. I didn't like Moyes prior to his skullduggry but once it came out I felt vindicated for my years of slamming him.

Not only did Moyes collude with SAF to gain a compensation free move to Old Trafford he then decided to take the piss again by offering silly money for our best players. I think these actions should of been the end of anymore good will shown to Deadly Dave but it appears not.Some if you out there would take him back which fills me with dread..Even now when I listen to Moyes and his dour negative tone it makes me shudder. David Moyes will take West Ham to the brink of relegation if not down..Who is against me in this shout??

Tony Marsh
115 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:50:49
David Barks I am not calling for anyone to be our saviour I am telling you if you could read properly that Fat Sam might end up as our last and only hope..It's not beyond the bounds of reasoning is it.? If Unsworth messed up and noone else will do it Sam might be all we have left..Grasp it David Please try to let that sink in..I am not calling for Allardyce he might be all we have shortly..Big difference eh Mucker ??
Brian Williams
116 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:52:20
Not me Tony. I thought he behaved terribly and shat on the club that had backed him for 11 years.
Could and should have told SAF to do things the right way instead of acting like his lap dog.

Won't contest he did well at times with little to spend but the manner in which he engineered his departure was shocking IMO.

Brent Stephens
117 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:52:58
Tony #114 "Brent, Jay,Ian etc I have no doubts you are all great Evertonians".

As you are too, Tony, no doubt. But I don't know anybody saying Moyes will do the job at WHU; and nobody is denying his behaviour in ditching us for Man Utd - they are distractions from the main question here, his achievements at Everton. Steve #112 provides good stats.

Ian Tunstead
118 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:54:11
Tony to be fair mate, that last comment is a bit hypocritical, if there is anyone more dour and negative than Moyes then surely it's you. You are the most negative person on ToffeeWeb by a distance. I just don't see things the way you see it. You seem to think Moyes owed us some blind loyalty even though the fans such as yourself couldn't wait to stick it to him. Double standards or what?
Tony Marsh
119 Posted 14/11/2017 at 18:57:31
Moyes made Man Utd awfull, stunk the place out in Spain, and took Sunderland down – those are his stats since he left Everton. Now with most of the season remaining let's see what this Genius Moyes does at the Hammers. I think they are doomed under him. How interesting that it's Silva's Watford first game up.
David Barks
120 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:00:21
Tony,

If you saying Allardyce might be our last and only hope is not saying he would be our savior, I can’t help you. Last and only hope is the same thing. You’ve been going on for weeks now saying that Allardyce is the man we should turn to in order to avoid relegation. You tell everyone that to hope for anything better is being unrealistic. Maybe you should join Shearer in that football/dementia research.

Steve Ferns
121 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:04:07
Bit harsh David.

I think points have been made. We should all leave it there. No opinions will be changed. Moyes is consigned to history for Everton. Let's look forward to the future. If we get a new manager in we can rally around, then great. If it's unsworth and youth development, then we will all be fully behind the kids. Tony included.

We're all blues here, and there's no point falling out over history.

Tony Marsh
122 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:08:00
David Barks,

If Unsworth continues like he has been doing, carrying on were Koeman left off, and we end up in the shite, no-one but Allardyce will come here. That's if we are lucky and haven't already pissed him off.

Do I want this scenario? Of course not. Is it possible? Most definitely... What's hard to understand there because, knowing Everton, it will most likely happen.

Steve Ferns
123 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:12:48
Unsworth's Premier League record is played 3, won 2, lost 1. Let's see how Palace goes before we write him off completely. Don't forget Allardyce took 8 games to get Palace going.
Ian Tunstead
124 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:36:58
Tony, Alex Ferguson was close to being relegated with Utd, Brian Clough was booted out when at Leeds, Mourinho kicked out second time around at Chelsea, Van Gall the same at Utd. If it can happen to them it can happen to Moyes, but talk about lowering standards or expectations. For me, putting Fat sam forward for the Everton managers job is every bit as cowardly and negative as anything Moyes has ever said.

The fact that you thought Moyes should have been doing better with the crap at his disposal yet you think this top 7 side will probably get relegated without big sams help just shows the lack of logic in your argument and the inconsistency. If Moyes could finish 4th with the garbage he had at the time imagine what he could do with the players we have now and the money and the youth coming through. And don't give me that other myth that he didn't give youth a chance.

Tony Marsh
125 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:47:17
Ian, Moyes took over the reigning Champions, Man Utd, the world's biggest club – he was useless. Even Everton won there when Moyes was boss, for the first time in a billion years.

If you can't win stuff at Old Trafford, you might as well give in. This was before Man City broke out as well.

Steve Ferns
126 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:53:45
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Moyes trying to make Rio Ferdinand watch videos of Phil Jagielka and telling him that this was how he wanted him to do it! Apparently, Rio lost all respect for him after that. It was stuff like this that meant Moyes never had a chance and it was all his own doing.

That said, Ferguson bailed on Utd at just the right time. That Champions were an old side and in need of a lot of work and it was always going to be a transitional phase. Dropping to 7th is unacceptable though. Woodward was a novice and cocked up the transfers, which didn't help Moyes, and that was another big factor.

Ian Tunstead
127 Posted 14/11/2017 at 19:58:38
Tony, Moyes won the charity shield with Utd but needed to get rid of the old guard such as Ferdinand and Giggs who were big names but they were past it and were causing more harm than good in the dressing room but he couldn't easily dispense of them due to their huge standing at the club. But let's face Van Gal and Mourinho have spent 100s of millions more and haven't done all that much better. Moyes wasn't given enough time to do the job. If you had to ask one man in history for there advice about football especially regarding Man Utd you would ask Alex Ferguson and he thought Moyes was the best man for the job, il take his view over yours all day long Tony.
Mike Gaynes
128 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:07:14
Off topic but speaking of modern football miracles, if things stay as they are in Dublin right now, Ireland will go to the World Cup... and our old boy Shane Duffy will be the man who put them there.
Ian Tunstead
129 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:12:38
Exactly Steve, Ferdinand didn't buy into what Moyes wanted him to do because of his huge ego. Moyes should have been given more than a season to suss out the dead wood and bad eggs and build his team in his image. Like when we finished 17th he learnt most about his players and who were the fighters and who were the quitters and the next season we finished 4th with no money. I am convinced had he been given another season and the chance to build a defence which was his strength he would have won the league in his second season.
Steve Ferns
130 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:17:43
7th was dreadful though Ian. Moyes handled United badly. He went in and tried to change everything. His reign seemed very Brian Clough at Leeds to me. He should have made subtle changes and adapted himself to suit the club.

Sociedad was a vanity appointment. He thought he could do what he did at Everton without learning the language, big mistake. It was doomed to fail from day one.

Sunderland was a disaster. The board lied to him. They wanted him to take the job, they made him promises about money and they didn't deliver. But he contributed to his own downfall with his comments that basically said they were down before a ball was kicked.

He doesn't seem to learn his lesson either, telling West Ham he'll be off to better things in 7 months.

Moyes at Everton worked the media well. His people's club comments were very astute and in tune with the fans. Now, he seems out of touch.

Ian Tunstead
131 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:39:44
7th was a disaster but to get a lift from the players after they had physically mentally and emotionally given everything to win the league the previous season was always going to be a tall ask. It was a poison chalice for anyone who took up the job after Fergie, it shows what a great manager he really was to win the league with people like cleverly and Anderson or that shite Irish defender who I can't remember. The team needed a complete rebuild and needed to buy into his "philosophy " but without the resume of a Moriniho that was always unlikely. I think they downed tools especially with Giggs and Ferdinand sticking the boot in. Also I think if you look at that season teams like Liverpool and Spurs really had very strong seasons relatively speaking and punched above their weight compared to Van Galls season in charge. Sometimes the stars all align and everything comes together and you get a miracle like we saw for Leicester and sometimes it's just the wrong place wrong time and nothing goes right like Clough at Leeds or Moyes at Man U. But what ever happened afterwards his contribution to Everton should not be underestimated or put down below Fat Sams achievements.
Steve Ferns
132 Posted 14/11/2017 at 20:47:48
It wasn't wrong place, wrong time, for either clough or Moyes. The fact was they came with the wrong approach. Moyes should have seen how Cough caused his own failure by trying to change everything and upsetting Championship winning players. He was the author of his own mis-fortune and need a more subtle approach, not the bull in the china shop approach he came in with.
Ray Roche
134 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:09:00
Tony Marsh (#125),

Just to put some perspective in this anti- Moyes tirade of yours, in their history Moyes has the third best win ratio/ percentage after Ferguson, 59.67%, Mourinho, which has risen to 61.73% (and they are shite to watch) and then Moyes at 52.94%, despite spending pennies compared to the other two.

I have no time whatsoever for Moyes following his behaviour after he left but let's keep to some accurate facts, eh?

John Daley
135 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:20:39
I very nearly pissed myself the other day when I read West Ham's official announcement of Moyes as their new manager:

"Moyes was selected by Sir Alex Ferguson to take on the daunting challenge of replacing him at Old Trafford in May 2013.

Moyes won the Community Shield at Wembley in August - becoming the first Manchester United manager ever to win a trophy in his first season in charge, but left the club after just ten months."

("Oh aye. Ah was oan feyer oan ma first day. They ungrateful bastards forget awl aboot that. Awnly United gadgie tae grab ay tin pot in his first game and they try to paint me as some sortay failure? Get tae fuck. Talk aboot rewriting history.")

Tony Abrahams
136 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:27:50
Funny thread, but it doesn't look like Seamus Coleman will be going to the World Cup next year now, Mike.

All this talk about dour Davey just makes me appreciate good positive attacking football that little bit more, and I have to say the Danes have been a credit to their past tonight. They could have sat on the lead but they knew they were better on the ball than the Irish and they have just gone and totally dismantled them.

Moyes was a flat-track bully, pure and simple. He wasted the Lescott money when he had a good team and, although I have to agree that we played some good football under him at times, he was never a real winner... no fucking way was David Moyes a winner. All his best victories came at Goodison Park when his team had the backing of Everton's great support.

Steve Ferns
137 Posted 14/11/2017 at 21:34:00
Couldn't disagree Tony. The greatest season an average team ever had for beating everyone they should beat, was us when we finished 4th. Numerous 1-0 wins, lots of effort. Fantastic achievement, but hardly any champagne football played.
Ian Tunstead
138 Posted 14/11/2017 at 23:29:47
You can't expect champagne football with the crap we had in the team. In fact how many teams would you say played champagne football consistently and have success? 70s Brazil, Barcelona a few years ago, Arsenal invincibles. They all had top players or lots of money, Moyes had neither when we finished 4th but he got the best out of his players more often than not.
Jamie Evans
139 Posted 15/11/2017 at 07:35:41
Jesus Christ. This is actually a book celebrating us finishing 4th. I hope none of our red friends get wind of this.

Seriously, as interesting as some of the insight here is, this is about a team, our team, finishing 4th. We didn't even get into the Champion's League, just a qualifying match, which of course we lost.

Really looking forward to the follow up from Tony Hibbert – 'My 100 Best Throw-Ins.'

Lawrence Green
140 Posted 15/11/2017 at 11:49:31
Jamie #139

No it's not a book about one season it's the story of Everton FC told by all those involved in that rich history.

Re-read the opening paragraphs again Jamie and I wouldn't worry too much about what our neighbours think, they are constantly on Blue Watch so they will always get wind of anything that is or has happened at Everton FC.

As Everton enter their 140th year, Faith Of Our Families: Everton: An Oral History tells the story of the club through the voices of the people who made the institution one of the most revered in world football.

Bobby Mallon
141 Posted 15/11/2017 at 11:50:14
To be honest, I thought Pienaar was our best player. Skillful, great dribbler, scored goals... him and Baines where top notch.
Brian Wilkinson
142 Posted 15/11/2017 at 15:51:04
All Comments about Moyes for and against fair points, what you did get from a Moyes team was a team hard to beat and a team you had to fight against for 90 mins, I hear the Old Trafford and Anfield fear but never saw the score lines we got over the next two managers apart from one Old Trafford win, At Goodison, Anfield and Old Trafford I can recollect not coming away with a pasting, I can recall a 3 nil Goodison Derby win, quite a few draws at Anfield, a 3 all draw at Goodison against utd, a 4 all draw at Old Trafford both when in matches after that, we folded and got pasted, to come back from 3-1 down at Goodison to get a 3 all draw, then to come back from 3-1 then 4-2 down at Old Trafford to draw 4 all shows we had fight in us, sadly none of our previous two managers have come close to showing up at Anfield.
Brian Wilkinson
143 Posted 15/11/2017 at 17:00:51
Moyes had his faults, no escaping that, but he steadied the ship at our club and was a far better manager than the last two we had and fair play to posters who have their opinions, but I think he is getting a lot of unfair flack by some.
Dave Abrahams
144 Posted 19/11/2017 at 16:03:42
Brian (142) that 4-4 draw was a strange game for me to understand, we attacked and created chances, scored four goals: this match was played one week after we had played Liverpool in the semi final of the cup, scored one goal and never had another serious shot at Liverpool's reserve goalkeeper Jones throughout the game, the semi final game summed Moyes up for me, afraid to gamble and take chances when they were most needed, he attacked in the Man. Unt. because of the stick he had taken over the semi final.

I was fed up with him long before his eleven years were up.

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