Niasse revels in 'great moment'

Sunday 24 September 2017  272 Comments  [Jump to last]

Oumar Niasse reflected on his match-winning intervention against Bournemouth yesterday and says that he hopes to fully grasp the opportunity handed him by the circumstances at Everton.

The 27-year-old scored a vital brace that completed the Blues' comeback against the Cherries and helped Ronald Koeman escape an awkward post-mortem at the hands of the media.

Everton had toiled through almost an hour of the game with Koeman's preferred midfield formation yielding few clear-cut chances when he elected to make two decisive changes, introducing Tom Davies and Niasse for Davy Klaassen and Wayne Rooney.

The pair combined twice in the space of five minutes, with the Senegalese striker taking his two chances to complete a fairytale week following his midweek goal against Sunderland in the League Cup.

“It's a great moment for me here at Everton because I've been waiting since one and a half years ago,” Niasse said in the tunnel after the game. I've had to keep going, keep working.

“Honestly, I always keep fighting. It's been a difficult period for me but, like I said, I'm aways trying to give my best. I didn't sign for another team, I signed for Everton so even if I didn't have the chance from the beginning, the coach has given me a chance and I need to take it with both of my hands so I'm thankful about that.

“We've had a bad start to the league. Now we're coming back after the win in the middle of the week and it's another win. Now we have to keep going for the next two games before the [international] break so I'm happy for the team now.”

Niasse gave credit to Tom Davies, another standout performer from the win over Sunderland overlooked for the starting XI by Ronald Koeman yesterday.

The 19-year-old midfielder played Niasse in with a smart pass for the first goal which he hammered past Asmir Begovic and it was the deflection off Davies' hard, low ball towards the far post that provided him with the chance to convert the winner.

“He's a good a player,” the striker said of Davies, “ and I think he can get better. I've been working with him in the Under-23s so I know how he plays and how he can give the ball to me.

“He's a good character for the team because we were 1-0 down at home and had lost three games in a row so it was very difficult. But the confidence is back and hopefully we're going to keep it before the break and we can keep working … because we've got quality in the team.”

 

Reader Comments (272)

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Ajay Gopal
1 Posted 24/09/2017 at 18:41:31
I love this guy – he might turn into my favourite Everton player.

Keep going, young man. You are a model of how to fight adversity and keep your head high when things are not going your way. An inspiration to anyone in any field of work. Wish you all the very best and success with Everton.

Martin Mason
2 Posted 24/09/2017 at 18:55:45
Such sincerity in an environment dominated by greed and ego. I wish success for this lad more than any player I can remember.
Eddie Dunn
3 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:22:04
Well said gents. I just like the positive vibe that this lad has given us he is an example of how you can turn your fortunes around if you stick at it. Keep it up, son.
Tony Marsh
4 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:29:40
Oumar, despite his mistreatment by Koeman, comes across as a player who loves it here. I don't base this assumption on the past week but also on his comments when he scored for Hull against Liverpool last season.

"I scored two goals for Hull today and it means a lot but also it's against Liverpool and I am an Everton player so it feels good." Words to that effect...

You will do for me, Oumar, and these fans who are saying he isn't the answer or wouldn't get us 20 goals, how do you know? Jamie Vardy was playing for Fleetwood 2 years before winning the Premier League for Leicester.

Truth is, we are all eating humble pie not just Koeman and none of us know what Niasse might achieve.

Colin Fawdry
5 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:40:57
Rhythm is a dancer
Niasse is the answer
He will score from anywhere
John Hammond
6 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:51:50
The amount of stick this guy got on TW was incredible. Such a humble and positive fella, couldn't be happier for him. Just shows, you should never write a player off so quickly.

I have high hopes for Klaassen and Sandro and like Niasse they've joined a team that isn't functioning properly. It's hard enough as it is moving to a new league in a new country with a different culture. Hopefully his attitude rubs off on the rest of the squad and we push on from here.

Dave Abrahams
7 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:53:52
Lots of posters are saying Niasse has not been registered for the Europa League matches. Does this mean he can not play in any of these games for the rest of the season, providing we get through to the final 32?
Brian Williams
8 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:54:51
Dave. It means he can't play in the group stages only.
David Pearl
9 Posted 24/09/2017 at 19:56:48
Basically Koeman hurt him so much he's come out fighting. He's developed a toughness because of it. As long as he keeps that belief. The real test will be when he starts games.
Dennis Ng
10 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:09:51
His attitude is very good for the dressing room. The young lads should start taking a bigger role in shaping the culture and the formation. They have a winning mindset after the U20 World Cup and even Koeman can't hold it down.
Jay Harris
11 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:26:25
Made up for the lad.

If we're honest, most of us thought it was some money laundering exercise when he first came.

It is no mean feat scoring 3 in 2 games for a struggling side, so well done Oumar, and may it long continue.

Jason Barker
12 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:30:25
I had my first slice with onion gravy. Followed by one with custard.
David McMullen
13 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:41:45
What can ya say? He'd been frozen out by Koeman we all assume he's a dud but he's saved us yesterday Koeman owes him big time.

We all mocked Niasse, let's be honest, but he's played a blinder done the job. He may not be long term but he deserves his chance.

Roger Jones
14 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:48:49
Disgraceful the way he was treated, especially not allocating him a locker. I expected more from Koeman.
Jack Convery
15 Posted 24/09/2017 at 20:54:45
He has a wonderful attitude – his parents have done a great job.

The Board are really pleased as his value has gone up and he nearly went to Hull / Brighton!

Koeman should do Euromillions next Tuesday.

Kim Vivian
16 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:04:42
Palace, Jack, Not Brighton – Palace.

But you're dead right about his parents; I was thinking precisely that a couple of hours ago. He has been brought up with his feet firmly on the ground.

Denis Richardson
18 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:10:31
Colin (#5) – that's a good'un!
Stephen Davies
19 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:15:09
He can be registered in January to play in the Europa League knock-out stages.
Dave Abrahams
20 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:17:41
Brian (#8), thank you. I hope Oumar gets to play a few games in this competition. One Everton fan who thought Niasse would be very good player was the late Harold Mathews after Oumar had come on in the cup tie versus Bournemouth, and Harold was no mug when it came to assessing footballers.

The first whispers that Oumar wasn't that hot came from Finch Farm before Niasse had kicked a ball for the club. Then he hardly got a look in with Martinez saying he wasn't fit with a wrist injury; then Koeman issued his verdict on him at the start of last season after a brief look at him. Was this Ronnie's own decision? The whole business is very strange; nobody really knows what went on, but now we are up to date and we can all start to make our own minds up about the lad.

For myself, we are short of established strikers. Calvert-Lewin is going to be a very good Number 9 in my opinion and Oumar can give him plenty of help in the coming months... in fact, they can help each other. Certainly now the striker situation doesn't look as bleak as it did even a week ago; Niasse has brightened the place up, I hope he continues to do so.

Paul Holmes
21 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:18:06
He was Russian Player of the Year in 2015 and they have a team playing Liverpool this week in the Champions League so the Russian League can't be that bad. He scored 2 goals against Liverpool and 1 against Man Utd, and he has scored 3 goals for us in 50 minutes of football!

Your own intelligence tells you that he is decent – take no notice of what the so-called football experts say, judge him with your own eyes on the pitch!

Lukaku's first touch was like a dog chasing a balloon, but he could score goals; this lad is a goalscorer and my above comments back this statement up!

James Marshall
22 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:30:49
Article 32 from UEFA on player registration:

43.01 For all matches from the start of the round of 32, a club may register a maximum of three new eligible players for the remaining matches in the current competition. Such registration must be completed by 1 February 2018 (24.00 CET) at the latest. This deadline cannot be extended.

So basically he can play after the group stages if we choose to register him (and we qualify!).

You gotta love the guy ,and you gotta love the story – props to him (as the kidz say) and fair play to Koeman for playing him (for whatever reason).

James Marshall
23 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:32:07
That should be Article 43, my apologies.
Tony Williams
24 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:45:07
Genuine people are very hard to come by in this life, especially in the football industry. Whether Niasse makes it or not, I think we could all learn a lot from him.
Steve Bird
25 Posted 24/09/2017 at 21:57:57
Niasse was slaughtered by all and sundry on here consistently over the last 18 months. Everybody agreed when Koeman gave his scathing assessment of him.

Yet here he is, everybody's hero and quite rightly with his recent goals. But hypocritically we are using him to beat Koeman up. I thought we all agreed with Koeman at the time. So we were all wrong as well as Koeman!!

The constant berating of the manager by many on here completely goes against the ethos of supporting a team through thick and thin.

We suffer as a team at home games because of a complete lack of support. Sparse noise, critical atmosphere and impending vitriol for any misplaced pass or mistake. Why do we expect our players to perform at their best in these conditions? Would any of you?

We have become hawkers of doom and negativity, no positivity and patience on the terraces. As so-called supporters, I, a fan of over 50 years of feast and famine, am ashamed of our critical outpourings both in here and at Goodison Park.

Eddie Dunn
26 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:03:06
David Pearl (#9). I think that he had already developed as a tough personality, as he had come from obscurity in Senegal to play in Norway, France and Turkey, having his ups and downs before his spell in Moscow.

He must have a great deal of self-belief and a strong will to come through all of this and still maintain such dignity despite people not always backing him.

I hope that some of our other boys also see that they can adjust to the Premier League, given time – both the new signings and our Under-23s.

Anthony Burke
27 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:12:42
Just watched highlights again and he can actually play good football. He needs to start more. I'm not gonna get carried away but I'm certainly excited could he bag 15 to 20 goals this season. Why not with his confidence sky high? COYB!!!
Mark Morrissey
28 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:16:34
Worrying to think we nearly let him go for a song. Each time it fell through we kept asking whats going on behind the scenes at our club, why can't we sell him? I'm so glad he's still here because, had he left, we would have simply forgotten about him and probably continued to talk ill of his time spent at Everton.

I don't remember anyone actually slagging him but we pretty much all wanted the club to sell him. Just shows how naive we can be sometimes. I think we're all very happy he is still with us and we have all recognised just how well he has handled himself.

He has certainly taken the club to his heart and that's what I admire the most about him, not his goal scoring feats but his humility in the face of adversity. I just hope that Ronald can take to him and include him. He's given him his chance, now he needs to coach him and nurture him. He could be Ron's saviour.

Peter Cummings
29 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:22:48
When I saw how he was progressing under Unsie I figured he would be a good bet given the chance, which he's grabbed with both hands, in the interview he gave credit to 'the coach' for his selection v Sunderland and Bournemouth.

I was just wondering which coach he was referring to,the one who oversaw his potential or the one who has been forced (by the fans) to eat humble pie by playing him.

Will Mabon
30 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:26:59
" I just hope that Ronald can take to him and include him. He's given him his chance, now he needs to coach him and nurture him. He could be Ron's saviour."

I'd be more worried that Koeman does coach him.

Derek Knox
31 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:28:11
Mark @ 28, exactly what I was thinking the other day. It goes to show, what trusting the manager does, or doesn't do for us, or the player.

I am led to believe the last minute transfer to Palace broke down due to the demands of the agent concerning his fee.

I have no time for agents whatsoever but the greedy leech has done us an indirect favour.

Hope the lad continues to score and leaves lashings of egg on Koeman's face.

James McPherson
32 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:43:31
Tony Marsh – glad you added the paragraph saying that we all wrote off Niasse. That's the reality.

The club have treated him shabbily. Martinez bought him and did not play him. Koeman's comments were ill advised and unnecessary – and I am generally pro Koeman.

Niasse is a model pro; his response has been impeccable. Refreshing change from most modern players.

Brian Williams
33 Posted 24/09/2017 at 22:54:06
I personally don't think we'll have to concern ourselves with registering Niasse for the Round of 32 in the Europa League. I honestly don't think we'll qualify.
Will Mabon
34 Posted 24/09/2017 at 23:13:00
Brian – can't argue with you. Might be a tall order with Captain Safety at the helm. Would be great to pull it out the fire but I have low confidence.
Andrew Keatley
35 Posted 24/09/2017 at 23:14:01
Some players don't impress in training, but have a greater ability to be productive in games. And some are the opposite.

I remember someone saying that Dickson Etuhu – I think when he was at Man City or Fulham – completely dominated games in training, but couldn't find the same level of control and assertiveness in actual matches. Perhaps Niasse is in the opposite camp – but what he might lack in skill and control during training sessions he makes up for in energy, enthusiasm and effort come game time.

I think most people recognise that goal-scorers do not have to be as technically proficient as other players. Filippo Inzaghi, Miroslav Klose, Gary Lineker – none of them were technically brilliant footballers, but they knew how to make the most of the gifts they had. Hopefully Niasse has a good blend of attitude, pace, killer instinct, and that much overlooked quality – luck.

Like many others, I didn't see much to get excited about when he made his first few appearances during the Martinez reign – and I think there will be games that pass him by, when things don't go his way and he'll look clumsy and uncultured, but the signs are starting to look good that he has a lot to offer the team this season and perhaps beyond. I imagine he'll always make unselfish runs and create chaos for opposition defences who may struggle to deal with his somewhat unconventionally direct style.

Neil Copeland
36 Posted 24/09/2017 at 23:34:01
What a great attitude, his approach is like that of a kid playing for the school or Sunday league with his mates. He shows no fear and his team mates seem to love him for it. I love his enthusiasm – he is so infectious.

How many Everton players have scored 3 goals in less than 90 minutes playing time at this level? He is already joint top scorer across all competitions with Calvert-Lewin and joint top in the Premier League with Rooney.

I just hope that Koeman has learnt the lesson and continues to give Oumar game time.

Jerome Shields
37 Posted 24/09/2017 at 23:43:32
Good luck Oumar, you deserve it. You have came through a lot, having had experience in different countries and with different teams.In the case of Everton you have shown character and fortitude.

You will be Everton's top goal scorer this season. Other strikers have a easier job. They don't have to perform to the same level as you, but your beliefs will keep you going.

Ian Hollingworth
38 Posted 25/09/2017 at 00:36:16
Look, as Evertonians we are all thrilled with this buts let's be honest with ourselves here how many thought he was any good? I will be honest he looked as bad as we have ever had.

We are clutching straws here as the club has let us down again so we are going to accept second best yet again good old plucky old Everton.

This is not dissing Niasse it's Everton. I hope he has a great career and scores loads of goals for a success Everton team but come on we all know that we are papering over the cracks yet again!

I want more for Everton, I want a team that wins trophies but the club is happy for us to accept mediocrity and we are so starved of success that we accept it.

Tom Las
39 Posted 25/09/2017 at 01:15:59
Loved his post-match interview. Particularly the part where he said he and Tom Davies have a great understanding from playing in the Under-23s together and that he just has to call Tom's name and Tom knows where he'll be (I'm paraphrasing).

You don't need to coach this pairing, Koeman, you buffoon. Just start them together and take the credit.

Si Cooper
40 Posted 25/09/2017 at 01:20:39
Ian, in regards to the opinions expressed on TW at the time, I genuinely thought Niasse got written off as useless far too quickly on very limited evidence, with many apparently not able to see anything good in his early appearances for us.

I thought he looked keen and ran some very useful lines but got very little useful supply. At times he looked like Bambi on ice and he obviously had some domestic issues, but the rush to make a damning and permanent judgement seemed excessive to me.

Mind you, making a rapid judgment and defending it to the death seems to be considered as some sort of virtue these days.

Ian Linn
41 Posted 25/09/2017 at 02:26:47
Just a word of caution.

Chuffed for the fellah, no doubt... but it's one game; let's see where he is by Christmas.

James Stewart
42 Posted 25/09/2017 at 02:54:12
Feed the Niasse! One of the great footballing underdog stories that prove there is a lot to still love about the game.
Mark Andersson
43 Posted 25/09/2017 at 03:06:06
Steve Bird... Spot-on.

Good luck to anyone who plays for Everton with passion and a understanding of the fans.

Kieran Kinsella
44 Posted 25/09/2017 at 03:25:35
Lots of revisionism going on here so I'll recount the series of events:

Joe Royle allegedly said "he's shit" as reported by supposedly "in the know" fans on forums.

Lukaku said "he's really raw".

That apart, neither Martinez nor Koeman picked him. Also, various people claimed the Russian player of the year thing was orchestrated by his agent.

Based on all of the above – both the real and the unsubstantiated, most people thought he was shit.

Jamie Sweet
45 Posted 25/09/2017 at 04:11:25
Whatever happens from now on, he has certainly lit up the past week for all of us when we all needed a bit of a boost.

Two of his goals have been first class too. Great first touches from tricky balls into him, and both absolutely mint finishes.

His first on Saturday… I haven't watched a replay of one of our goals so many times for as long as I can remember. Firstly it was a cracking strike, but secondly the Gwladys Street seemed to erupt like I've not seen in a long time. Probably a lot of pent-up frustration pouring out. I bloody love it when it goes off like that!

More of the same please, Oumar!

Lee Brownlie
46 Posted 25/09/2017 at 04:21:40
'Koeman's preferred midfield formation...' – what midfield formation?

For the truest depiction of how things actually are with our team at the minute, we just have to recall Harry Enfield's West Brom team (in a sketch in his old, old comedy series) running in what was basically a line, a queue, of players after the ball!! Now that was funny.. .this is not!!!

(Says all we need to know when a player the manager had written off, as had most of us, gets another opportunity due to that same managers inability to get everyone else playing properly as a Premier League team, and takes that chance to make said manager gag on some 'humble' - not that he ever will be very humble! - pie!!!)...

Brian Porter
47 Posted 25/09/2017 at 06:28:18
Paul Holmes (#21), I'm in complete agreement with you.

Watching replays of the first goal on Saturday, Niasse actually started the move, kept going and was in a superb position when Tom Davies played a pinpoint pass exactly where Oumar wanted it. Then, one touch to take it clear of the defender and a thunderous shot that gave the keeper no chance. If that goal had been scored by say, Deli Alli or by a Neymar or Messi it would probably have been hailed as a stroked of genius. I'm not saying Oumar is the next Messi (who knows though), but that goal was a real striker's goal.

The second goal showed strength and resilience and damn fast reflexes together with a never say die attitude to force the ball home. Given regular game time, I see no reason why Oumar can't go on to bigger and better things, and I for one would live to see him do it for Everton, the club he has clearly taken to his heart.

In an interview about him, Koeman is now saying he did have a locker last season but if he did, why didn't Koeman say that last season? He left the ground in a tracksuit on Saturday because the club never ordered him a club suit. The Guardian reports that they have now ordered him one in time for this Saturday and go on to say, "There should also be a thank you note from Koeman in the pocket."

If Koeman is foolish enough to overlook Niasse in the next few games, it will say far more about Koeman than it will about Oumar Niasse.

Going back to your post, Paul at #21, the one thing you neglected to mention was that he was a Senegal international who had, up to the point of us signing him, also scored twice for his country that season in three appearances in the African Cup of Nations qualifiers.

Whatever went wrong on his arrival is now past history and we should get behind him and give him the support we give to any of our strikers who gives us the one thing we ask from them... goals! He could just turn out to be something special; only time and regular game time will tell.

Simon Bradley
48 Posted 25/09/2017 at 07:12:02
Agree with everything said in this thread. And Brian (#47) especially. His first goal was tremendous – any player, in any league in any team, would have been proud of that strike.

Oumar is a class act. Long may this fairy-tale continue.

Rick Pattinson
49 Posted 25/09/2017 at 07:57:08
Chuffed for the lad. He's dug us out of a deep hole if even for a couple games. Let's hope he can continue.

His first goal was very well taken. He obviously knows where the net is – maybe he can show Ramirez too. He's been a pro he's well liked by the players. And by today's standards £13.5mill ain't a lot.

We had the luxury of Lukaku banging goals last season now we have to find an alternative... so give him the game time and who knows hey. He isn't the crappest player in the team, that's for sure. Oumar, prove us all wrong, son!

Ian Jones
50 Posted 25/09/2017 at 08:01:39
I don't think it helped fans impression of Niasse when he came on as a sub with Everton two-nil up with 10 men against West Ham a few years back. Roberto made a few odd subs. We lost 3-2. I don't think he played all that well.

Fair play to Oumar. He obviously has a great attitude. It will be interesting to see how he gets on. Goals always help. He seems to play with a smile on his face. Shame we couldn't have paired him with Costa. His snarling manner would have given us naughty and nice up front.

Calvert-Lewin should also be praised for his part in the second goal. Neat control and then laid the ball off for Tom Davies. I appreciate it looked easy to do but how many times this season have we seen what appeared to be easy passes go astray?

Steve Ferns
51 Posted 25/09/2017 at 08:12:32
5. To add you your Rhythm is a Dancer chant:

Oumar is the answer,
He's an Evertonian,
He will score anywhere,
Lift your hand and voices,
Free your mind and join us,
You can feel it in the air,
Oumar has got passion,
Oh, you can feel it in the air,
Oumar has got passion,
Oh, you can feel it in the air
Ooh ooh ooh oh.

Liam Reilly
52 Posted 25/09/2017 at 08:27:14
It's interesting how many on here are saying that he can't play football but might score a few goals.

His hold-up play on Saturday was excellent and he himself recovered Baines's wayward pass to start the move for the first goal.

Not registered for Europe is another own goal. Back to Sigurdsson and Rooney for Thursday then.

John G Davies
53 Posted 25/09/2017 at 08:36:02
He makes very intelligent runs, far more intelligent than Lukaku. He finds space in the box like all good strikers.

I said it weeks ago before he started scoring and have said it for a while, he was never as bad as most made him out to be. He's a sub at the moment for me, get him up to match fitness, then who knows?

Kim Vivian
54 Posted 25/09/2017 at 08:40:40
I'm rather glad that Niasse is not eligible to play on Thursday in the Europa League as it will take the spotlight off him for a few days. If Ron was to start him in that game, there would be fair pressure after his fairy tale metamorphosis over the last week. Best to ease it off a bit.

It remains to be seen whether he starts on Sunday against Burnley and I suspect he will not, but hopefully we can see at least a half-hour stint depending on how we are doing in that match.

Also great to see he made it into Garth Crooks's team of the week for the beeb alongside Kane and Morata!

Steve Solomon
55 Posted 25/09/2017 at 09:00:13
I am so impressed with his attitude and humility. The manager and a lot of the fans deserved a huge 'up yours' from him after his performance this week, but he is committed to the club and just wants to perform at his best.

Well done young man.

As a fellow African, I am 100% in his corner and I hope he continues to shine.

James Ebden
56 Posted 25/09/2017 at 09:49:51
Steve Bird (#25) – spot-on.
Brian Porter
57 Posted 25/09/2017 at 09:56:23
WHEN SILENCE CAN (AND SHOULD) BE GOLDEN.

Maybe it's a Dutch thing, or maybe it's just Koeman, but I feel there are certain times in life when a diplomatic silence can speak volumes. Instead, Koeman is reported in The Echo as defending his previous treatment of Oumar Niasse.

So, after the euphoria and happiness generated by Niasse's performance on Saturday, our manager basically decides to try and burst the bubble by raking up the past and in effect, is trying to defend the indefensible.

Whichever way you choose to look at it, and no matter what we as fans may have thought about Niasse at the time, it has always been acknowledged that he was badly treated as a human being by Ronald Koeman. He was publicly ridiculed by his own manager and made to train with the kids before being sent to Hull on loan.

To be told if he wanted to play football he needed to leave the club was the type of pronouncement that should have been made in private in Koeman's office and not been made public, unless it was done by Koeman in an attempt to get the fans on his side by making an example of Niasse for whatever reason he saw fit.

Never once did Niasse complain, even when being faced with loaded questions by the press that gave him the opportunity to have a go back at Koeman. Instead, he maintained a dignified silence on his treatment and even mentioned that, as an Everton player, he was extra pleased to have scored against Liverpool for Hull. So, even though he had been frozen out by Koeman's actions, he still displayed a remarkable loyalty to Everton Football Club.

Koeman is now also saying that he did have a locker last season, but surely, if that was true, and him supposed to be Mr Honesty personified, Koeman should have said so when the story was filling space in most of the newspapers at the time it was first reported.

The lad left Goodison Park on Saturday wearing an Everton tracksuit because the club, (Koeman?) didn't order him a club suit – even when he'd been added to the squad for this season. Apparently they have now ordered him one for this coming Saturday.

I could be wrong of course, but for Koeman to suddenly try to publicly defend his actions of a year ago smacks of Koeman showing a degree of petulance in response to Niasse suddenly being hailed as a hero by the fans. What other reason can he have for raking up his actions of a year ago?

Why not just take the plaudits for reintroducing Niasse to the squad and perhaps just mentioning that the past is just that, and we, as a club are now going forward with Oumar Niasse as a member of the first team squad?

His reaction to Niasse's first goal on Saturday hardly endeared him to the crowd and he almost forgot himself when joining in the celebrations of the second. Or did he realise at that point that Niasse might have just provided him with a lifeline on his job, which was beginning to look more and more precarious with each defeat piled on defeat?

Come on, Mr Six Million Pound manager, show a little graciousness and class. At the moment you are still on sticky ground and your team selections for the next few games will show just how much you have learned or not learned from the events of the last week.

Try giving Oumar Niasse a spot of unqualified praise for his two performances, but please do not try to justify treating him, or anyone for that matter, as you did a year ago.

All credit to Oumar Niasse for not letting Koeman's treatment of him destroy him both personally and professionally, as it might have done, and for his stance in maintaining a dignified silence over what took place last year. If only our manager, the so-called leader, motivator and man-manager of the team, could do the same, and learn to keep his mouth shut from time to time.

Maybe the Dutch are not familiar with the phrase, 'Silence is golden'. If not, it's time someone educated Koeman in its meaning and when a little diplomacy is best served after you have been made to look a bit of a prat.

Tony Everan
58 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:13:45
Certain players have an eye for goal, they just have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. Oumar Niasse has got a wee touch of the Gary Lineker about him. A predator.

Above all, what surprised me and probably the Everton manager too was the supreme quality of Niasse‘s first touch for his goal on Wednesday and his first goal on Saturday.

It Is no mean feat to get some control on a through pass zipped in at that pace. The control and finish was sublime.

I take my hat off to the lad, and if he hasn't earned a start next Sunday, I don't know what will!

Steavey Buckley
59 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:14:58
Without Niasse and the support of Calvert-Lewin, Davies and Kenny it is hard to imagine Everton scoring another goal in the Premier League. Yet, no doubt, Koeman will persevere with the expensive flops and bring in new ones once the transfer window opens up again.

Koeman has to go. He makes Martinez appear competent, as former manager of Everton. Come to think of it, Martinez never wasted any transfer money on any flops even at Wigan. He always had to sell his best players and bring in other ones – Kone was unlucky with injuries at Everton.

Dave Evans
60 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:17:40
Steve at 25 – great post.

I am sure there are many more fans who find the turgid negativity of others both depressing and shaming. We as fans can play a part in promoting confidence and a sense of belonging by the nature of our support at Goodison and in and around social media. Who knows some of it may even help the players?

Another point. It is interesting how the fans, who's judgement on player and staff ability is quick and scathing, often try to say that their opinion is that of the majority of fans. I read in an above post 'We all thought Niasse was crap.' No doubt like we all think 'Martina is crap' or Schneiderlin or Rooney is past it and has nothing to contribute. Or Koeman is clueless.
We didn't and we don't.

Clive Mitchell
61 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:17:51
The past is the past. Everything about Oumar Niasse in recent times is class. If he never scores again he's deserved our total respect.

What a breath of fresh air his humility and courtesy are; what a joy to see the reaction to him of youngsters like Davies and Calvert-Lewin; and what a burst of energy and skill he brought in that first goal on Saturday from the moment he won the ball on the left wing. Oumar!

John Charles
62 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:20:04
Steve, as another supporter of over 50 years, I am ashamed of how our manager treated one of his team.

I believe the division fomented by the manager of the team is far more conducive to under performance than any negativity from the crowd.

Evertonians all support the team and club; the lack of passion currently at Goodison Park is a direct result of the negative rubbish we have been served up under Ronald Koeman.

Michael Coffey
63 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:40:26
Anyone else notice how Koeman touches his nose when answering the question about Niasse's impact? Body language 101 says he's lying.

That said I'm not holding my breath about Oumar. In 40 odd years, I've see too many one hit wonders up front – Dave Irving, Alan Biley, Danny Cadamarteri, Nick Chadwick to name a few.

Mentioning him and Gary Lineker in the same breath is a measure of how hard folk want to see Koeman fall on his face, rather than any serious evaluation of his ability. Surely?

Brian Porter
64 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:42:40
Dominic King in the Daily Mail in a great article today accuses Koeman of attempting to rewrite history as far as Oumar Niasse is concerned. Koeman just keeps opening his big mouth and putting his foot right in it.

Link

Mark Tanton
65 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:46:33
Changing the point entirely for a moment – is our draw with Man City looking better every week?
John G Davies
66 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:47:03
Michael,

What number is touching your bollocks while posting?

Brian,

Is that Dominic King the kopite?

John G Davies
67 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:50:09
Mark (#65),

Said it at the time.

Man City will score a minimum if two goals in every home game. To restrict a potent attacking force like City to 7 shots on goal was a defensive masterclass.

Raymond Fox
68 Posted 25/09/2017 at 10:51:17
I wish some would desist from saying we all said this, we all thought that, is it not better to say most or the majority said this or that.

Its bloody annoying, whatever we comment on you can bet there's never 100% agreement.

Or maybe I'm just being pedantic.

Brian Porter
69 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:04:28
John (#67), yes it is, but in this case he is bang on the money in his assessment of Koeman's reaction to Niasse's emergence as a matchwinner for us on Saturday.
John G Davies
70 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:10:15
Brian, I was at the game but didn't see Koeman's reaction to the second goal. Some on here said he celebrated it. Did you see his reaction?
James Marshall
71 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:21:20
He was fist-pumping for the second goal – I think people missed it because Duncan was trying to leapfrog the stand!
Tony Abrahams
72 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:25:32
How can a draw at Man City look better every week, when they played for 50 minutes, ten against eleven?

A good defensive display, John G, but not once did any of our defenders, bring the ball out, and set us up to attack though, and Koeman brought on other players to rectify this and ended up completely wrecking the system?

I hope Niasse scores 25 goals for Everton, this season and It won't bother me if Koeman, doesn't celebrate any of them, even a last minute winner in the cup final because, once a team is picked, it's all about the players, unless of course the manager is killing us with his tactics!

Paul Tran
73 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:33:33
'Touching your nose means you're lying'? – Every time? No other indicators?

Bit more to body language than that.

Paul Ward
74 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:33:47
Brian Porter @57,

An other long winded skillfully written epic using a story line that enables you to spill you bile on Koeman. "The One-man Wrecking Ball" and many other one sided posts of yours are becoming a bit predictable now. You are entitled to your hatred of the manager but why put a thin veil over it?

You must lose a lot of sleep over Koeman especially as he looks like being here for a bit longer. I think most moderates on TW who feel Koeman should get a little more time to turn things around are not happy or confident he will do that, but let us be a bit open-minded.

John G Davies
75 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:42:38
I think he was fucked if he did and fucked if he didn't in that game, Tony.

When he made the changes was he trying to win the game or solidify the draw? Klaassen for Williams and Sigurdsson for Davies suggests the former.

Overall not many will get anything at Man City.

Tony McNulty
76 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:45:16
I knew "Lockergate" would be around for a while but it may now be superseded by "Suitgate"!
James Marshall
77 Posted 25/09/2017 at 11:50:37
People seem to get so worked up over things they read in the press – Koeman is our manager, and he's an ambitious man who wants to do well. Yes, that means he doesn't see himself at Everton for the next 10 years, but so what?

Do you really think he's deliberately making a mess of things? No, he's principled and has 'his way' of doings things, but isn't that single minded attitude the reason people get into positions like his?

You could say the exact same thing about all top managers – and by 'top manager' I refer to every single one of them in the Premier League.

I quite like the guy, despite our recent results and perceived treatment of Niasse. Reading Koeman's comments on the Niasse thing, I kinda got what he was saying.

He's Everton manager, and while he is, I'll still back him. You can't blame him for us not signing a striker either – it's a bigger issue than just Ronald Koeman.

Eric Myles
78 Posted 25/09/2017 at 12:14:52
Steavey (#59), what's Martinez's excuse for McGeady and Alcaraz?
Steve Bird
79 Posted 25/09/2017 at 12:18:17
Dave (#60) thanks, you really get it!

John (#62), it's a fair point you make and there is some merit in what you say, but we as alleged supporters should do so much more to generate momentum on the pitch.

We are all so proud of our young players, we are buying up all the Under-23 talent in the world it appears at times. Yet we expect to insert these young players into a cauldron of negativity and an almost sadistic need of supporters to berate any individual who has the temerity to make a mistake in the first 10 minutes.

If I had to work under those circumstances I would be looking for a more conducive vehicle for my talents ASAP.

Ian Hollingworth
80 Posted 25/09/2017 at 12:22:27
Apologies for my 'we all thought " comment when I clearly should have put 'most of' or 'the majority thought...'

That said, I do not recall many, if any posts on here during the summer transfer window claiming Niassie was the option we needed as striker.

I do obviously hope he continues scoring goals to prove most of us wrong and help Everton win football matches (the only thing that matters).

Brian Harrison
81 Posted 25/09/2017 at 12:40:02
I just wonder what the process is for identifying and then buying new players. I can't believe that we just bought 3 out-and-out Number 10s without any discussions has to how they would fit into the same team. So who has the final say? Is it Walsh or Koeman or the board?

For me the manager should be the person who decides what players he wants, not the Director of Football or a member of the board, because if it goes pear shaped as it is at present the only person with his job on the line seems to be Koeman.

I could well imagine the response that any board would get if they had told Clough, Shankly or Ferguson oh we are hiring a Director of Football and he will identify the players we will buy. Now I don't know if that is happening at Everton, but I read last week that Koeman was quoted when asked about transfer targets in January said I leave that up to Steve Walsh.

I don't believe in the post of Director of Football if you want someone to buy good young talent as we seem to be doing at present great but he should not be in charge of selecting first team players. Bye the way... this job used to be done by scouts.

Tony Abrahams
82 Posted 25/09/2017 at 12:57:57
I would have to disagree John G. You said it was a defensive masterclass, but the manager went and changed the defensive shape.

If it's not broke, it doesn't need fixing, especially when we had a man advantage, so that was the one side of Everton's game-plan that didn't need to be altered IMO.

I would have brought off Davies definitely, and also probably Rooney, but it wasn't a game for those two players to come on at the same time though, especially when we were crying out for width?

As soon as we went to a flat back four, Man City went and played 4-4-1 and started getting in behind us, down the sides.

Mark Schofield
83 Posted 25/09/2017 at 13:04:51
Ferguson went nuts for the 1st goal. I wonder if this was specifically related to Oumar's situation or just general relief?
Matthew Williams
85 Posted 25/09/2017 at 13:58:40
Gotta start giving players a chance to prove themselves, Niasse may be the striker we need for now alongside Calvert-Lewin. The young lads will make mistakes granted,but they will learn & seem to be improving game by game.

Two more wins before the dreaded International break would be most welcome... and I can see it happening too, if Koeman can just give youth and fringe players a chance to shine.

Onwards Blues to Thursday night victory!

Terry Underwood
86 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:05:16
Just take a look at his 2 goals, a pass in midfield then breaking his neck to get into the box to take the through pass and a fantastic finish, then real awareness and reactions for the second. This guy is a goalscorer.
Paul Williams
87 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:12:57
Seeing Ferguson's Conte style celebration at Niasse's goal on Saturday, I wonder how long he's been bending Koeman's ear to get him in the team?
Mike Berry
88 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:13:08
Koeman has dropped a right clanger not including Oumar in his Europa League squad; that says it all as to how he perceived the player.

However, due to fate, Everton have luckily benefited from not having Oumar sold to Palace and Giroud not coming from Arsenal to allow Oumar his opportunity.

Looking forward to the fans roaring him on at every opportunity, the man deserved his chances and certainly the accolades... he is becoming everyone's favorite.

Dave Abrahams
89 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:41:34
Mike (#88) fair point, but the squad was picked in July, I presume, and it is obvious Koeman didn't think Oumar would be here.

But to our relief, and Koeman's, he is. Lets just enjoy the next few months with him. Better still, let's forget what happened; Niasse has.

John G Davies
90 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:43:53
No worries, Tony, we all see it differently at times mate.

I think he changed it going for the win against 10 men. Against 11 he probably wouldn't have changed it.

One thing I would say is we didn't concede after he changed it.

Tony Abrahams
91 Posted 25/09/2017 at 14:50:27
We do see things differently John G, especially City's goal, which deffo came after the changes!
William Cartwright
92 Posted 25/09/2017 at 15:10:24
Echo article highlighting that Niasse turned up in his track suit to Saturday's match because he had not been measured up for a standard issue blue suit . . . . .

Unbelieveable!

Daniel Lim
93 Posted 25/09/2017 at 15:10:41
Ian @80

Exactly opposite of what you remember, I remember many posts asking for Niasse to be given a chance. And I was not one of them.

Phil Walling
94 Posted 25/09/2017 at 16:10:50
He'll be gone by Christmas with our blessing. He isn't really up to much and as they said about Lukaku, 'What else does he do but score goals, eh?
Stan Schofield
96 Posted 25/09/2017 at 16:21:19
Some of the posts here are saying we all mocked Niasse, which is a big assumption. Not all of us mocked him.

Such an assumption is like the assumption that he was crap, just a daft assertion with little or no evidence.

To those with this latest assumption that we all mocked Niasse, do you never learn?

Derek Knox
97 Posted 25/09/2017 at 16:32:23
Maybe thinking too deeply, but the psychological value of Oumar's goals, should Koeman start playing him more regularly. Also assuming that he will add to his tally.

Opposing teams will have to mark him with at least one player, which should create opportunities for others.

There lies the rub; it's only Rooney and Niasse who have scored in the Premier League, although I do have faith in Calvert-Lewin opening his account soon.

We should, in a balanced team, expect goals to come from all departments.

James Hughes
98 Posted 25/09/2017 at 17:12:04
William (#92),

I hope that is not true.

As pointed out by many on here Oumar has already been denied his basic working rights under UK/EU law. The club could already face discrimination charges about treating all employees equally by not giving him a locker.

Shane Corcoran
99 Posted 25/09/2017 at 17:17:28
If I recall correctly, didn't Koeman dismiss McGeady and Niasse at the same time? Was McGeady denied a locker and sent to train with the U23s?
Keith Monaghan
100 Posted 25/09/2017 at 17:22:18
I was delighted with Niasse's goals on Saturday, give the guy loads of credit and hope he makes the most of further opportunities he gets.

Where I sit in the ground, there was nobody who thought he was any use in the brief appearances he made after Martinez signed him. And to a man, we all thought he was a waste of money and wanted him shipped out – and that was before Koeman was appointed.

Koeman now deserves some credit for giving Niasse a chance. Some of his signings like Sandro & Klaassen also deserve many of the OTT critics on here to give them a chance.

It's also true that Niasse's introduction on Saturdayt wasn't the only factor which changed the game – others were the Pickford save after another piece of suicidal distribution from the sluggish Rooney, the withdrawal of Rooney and the introduction of Tom Davies – the tempo of our play quickly changed and got the crowd going.

Finally, if our "diamond" was half the man that Niasse seems to be, he might get beyond the stage of being potential after more than 5 seasons around the Premier League.

Steven Jones
101 Posted 25/09/2017 at 17:34:01
Koeman deserves a lot of credit for the treatment of Niasse.

I understand there are a lot of reports when he arrived his attitude was not great, he did not work hard, was not a good example at training, and was having problems at home and appeared to be going off the rails with the arrest and attitude.

Martinez and fans saw a players not even able to control a ball, and certainly not the player he is today.

Koeman drew a line under it for reasons of quality, which we all agreed, attitude, fitness and behaviour. Sending him ti the U23s and the shock treatment has corrected Niasse's attitude to football. Oumar has said so or inferred such in his interview with the echo.

Good on Oumar, good on Kouman and good on Unsy and the refocus of Oumar. Without the shock treatment and the head down to save his career, he would not be in the condition he is right now.

Koeman has brought him back and sees his ability. He could have sent Lookman on or Sandro on Saturday – he went for Oumar and it has worked a treat.

Christine Foster
102 Posted 25/09/2017 at 17:57:30
Steven Jones (#101)... I think I have heard it all now.. praise for the way Koeman has treated Niasse. You should apply for a job as spin doctor for Brexit.

Every commentator, journalist and nearly every fan at Goodison have acknowledged the poor treatment he has got from the club and Koeman in particular. And how much humble pie the manager has had to swallow because he had no choice.

Koeman was wrong to do what he did to Niasse and no amount of spin will convince me, or the rest of the population, any different. You're not in the PR department are you? If not you should apply..

Peter Gorman
103 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:01:16
Steven Jones, you say you understand there were lots of reports about Niasse's bad attitude – can you cite a single one? It sounds a bit like you've made it all up but I'm sure that's no the case.

Genuinely the first I've heard of it.

Albert Perkins
104 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:07:03
The Guardian has an interesting take on our striker situation.

Gregg Bakowski:

Having watched his Everton side transformed from a pedestrian pudding into a pesky and punchy force with the introduction of Oumar Niasse's pace on Saturday, you'd have thought a cartoon lightbulb might have pinged into view above Ronald Koeman's golden locks.

But no, the Everton manager apparently wants to be the first to take a walking football team into the top six – and he plans to do this by returning to Arsenal in January with £40m for Olivier Giroud, a player who is 31 this week and about as mobile as Wayne Rooney.

And it says here that Niasse – who says he has never had it easy under Koeman – will be cast out again and told to find another club in January, with Bournemouth's Josh King – who scored against the Toffees on Saturday – a possible £25m target.

James Hughes
105 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:12:52
Steven are you Koeman's brother in disguise?

What is this "we all agreed" and "shock treatment" crap? Generally on TW we don't all agree about anything... apart from what day of the week it is.

Dermot Byrne
106 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:20:24
Steven (#101)... the fairy tale with goody and baddy is in place. Not sure your claim on his attitude is based on any evidence and equally not sure the rest of us know the reason Koeman fell out with him. But threaten the fairy tale at your peril mate. It has a few days still to run.
Dermot Byrne
107 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:22:11
Sod off, James (#105). Just because you have had a bad Thursday.
Will Mabon
108 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:29:33
Albert, Koeman needs to be stopped or preferably dismissed before wasting £40m on Giroud. Another rumour earlier was perennial sicknote Danny Welbeck. Josh King – wow.

That article you quote is correct. It's almost as if Koeman is doing this on purpose.

Paul Ferry
109 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:58:05
Christine Foster (#102). You do not, thankfully, speak on behalf of the 'rest of the population'.

It's rather arrogant for you to think this, quite frankly. I, for one, totally agree with Steven. You can, therefore, remove one punter from your 'rest of the 'population'. And there will, I suspect, be many more like me.

I'm also a little fed-up with posters like you, Christine, who use Oumar's goals and success as a weapon in your unmitigated tirade against all things Koeman. Do you really think that Oumar sees it that way? Again, I suspect not.

Actually, I would much rather read what he has to say about himself not what a doom and gloom merchant on the prowl for anything that might be used to lambast and lampoon Koeman like you says.

Read: ' … the coach has given me a chance and I need to take it with both of my hands so I'm thankful about that'. I sense an innate niceness in him that might mean he will never be the sort of bullish front fella we might want.

I think that he is genuinely grateful for - as Steve rightly says - Koeman bringing him back from the fold. And he will stay there now, deservedly so. How nice it is to be an Evertonian who takes genuine pleasure in what both nice Niasse and grumpy I won't give an inch Koeman did on Saturday.

Of course, Christine you will say – just like your utterly skewed 'humble pie' nonsense: 'What else could Niasse do/say'? I will not agree, if you do.

You, thankfully do not speak on behalf of me or the 'rest of the population'.

Darren Hind
110 Posted 25/09/2017 at 18:58:28
John G (#67)

"To restrict a potent attacking force like City to 7 shots on goal was a defensive master class."

Please stop embarrassing yourself with this apologetic nonsense. Do you not think people saw it ????

Man City missed chance after chance that night firing high and wide time and again. Sterling and Aguero were particularly profligate.

I remember being surprised when Sky said at the end that they only had 19 attempts although not surprised that only seven were on target. What the stats didn't tell was the amount of times they had chances but tried to walk it in.

This could have been a cricket score and if City had been a clinical as they have been in other games it would have been. "Defensive masterclass" ? depends on whether you actually saw the game or not. Ten-man City repeatedly penetrated our massed defence like piss through snow.

Klaassen: The guy who "was sent on to win it" simply added fresh legs to an exhausted defence. He defended his penalty area manfully making a great defending header and game saving clearances at the death. They're not in the stats either.

Given your comments, I suspect this is another case of you arguing the toss about a game you didn't even see.


Nitesh Kanchan
111 Posted 25/09/2017 at 19:20:18
Brian (#81)... Moshiri said it clearly during his Sky fiasco, that 80% are Koeman's players, his team basically. I don't think we need anything more to look into that matter, unless Moshiri is a big liar or it was some mimicry guy.
Darren Hind
112 Posted 25/09/2017 at 19:23:02
Steve Bird @25

Have I got this right? "Everyone" was in agreement with Koeman's comments about Niasse ... so "everyone" on here is a hypocrite.

And the Zombie football we are witnessing has nothing to do with Koeman's selections or brainless tactics, it's as a result of the negativity from "so-called supporters" who make you "ashamed".

Did it ever occur to you that you may have things a little arse about face ?

I'll tell you who really are being hypocritical. The "real" supporters who applaud the nasty comments Koeman made about Niasse after seeing him for all of 45 minutes, coming on here pleading for more time after nearly eighteen months of purposeless dross.

The defence of Koeman on here is coming apart at the seams.

John G Davies
113 Posted 25/09/2017 at 19:23:03
Getting personal again, Darren. Whilst ignoring my posts of course as you do.

No hard feelings from my part though. You asked for a tip after I gave you a winner on Saturday.

Get on trap 5, first race at Wimbledon tomorrow. Dogs name is Schnorbitz.

David Hughes
114 Posted 25/09/2017 at 19:32:11
Big Duncan! What a boss! Love this man sums it up!

Made up. Well done, Oumar! COYB

Paul Holmes
115 Posted 25/09/2017 at 19:48:54
I follow horseracing and many top trainers say some horses can deceive you by being no star on the gallops in the morning,but take them to the racecourse and they can be transformed.... step forward, Omar Niasse at Goodison Park!

Koeman needs to play one of the following as a playmaker and leave the other two on the bench: Rooney, Sigurdsson or Klaassen. Don't put square pegs in round holes because of transfer fees, Koeman, my son!

Des Farren
116 Posted 25/09/2017 at 20:31:11
"We have become hawkers of doom and negativity" Could not agree more. I hope for Niasse's sake that the new-found admiration for his talents on these pages is not a fleeting phenomenon. We shall see.
Joe Edwards
117 Posted 25/09/2017 at 21:02:02
Brian Porter @57

Well sumarised, Brian; Koeman's ego is second only to his inability to swallow his pride. He should be kissing Niasse's arse but continues to treat him like a second-hand heroin needle. I am sick to death of the Dutch Ginger Tosspot's rants which rank as badly as the dross Martinez spouted but at the negative end of the spectrum.

Christy Ring
119 Posted 25/09/2017 at 21:33:37
I was thrilled for Niasse, especially after the way he was treated by Koeman. I also believe the crowd were the reason he brought him on.

I also believe Koeman's formation this season, apart from not replacing Lukaku, is the reason we are struggling so badly. He persists with playing 3 No 10s in the one team.

When Niasse, Davies and Kenny came on, we looked a different team. Davies playing in his proper position, linked up superbly with Niasse, who partnered Calvert-Lewin, and Kenny showed Koeman what we all new, he should have started him long before now.

I'm waiting to see what team he starts next Sunday?

James Lauwervine
120 Posted 25/09/2017 at 21:40:25
Well said, Steve (#25).
Stan Schofield
121 Posted 25/09/2017 at 21:59:45
James@120: Well said? Even though what is written @25 is incorrect?
Sam Hoare
122 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:07:44
Not to sidetrack the Niasse love-in but I thought Jay Rodriguez looked pretty handy against Arsenal tonight and was unlucky. He was available for £10m or so and I think would have got us more goals than any of our current strikers.

I'm still struggling to let the many failures of the transfer window go...

Mike Allison
123 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:12:01
Bit pointless though Sam. Everyone in the Premier League looks 'a bit handy' at some point. How do you really think you'd have reacted if our big name Lukaku replacement was Jay Rodriguez?
Steve Bird
124 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:17:58
Darren (#112), if you have to be pedantic to prove a point, then you are correct: not everyone agreed with Koeman's assessment of Niasse – it was probably only about 91.2% of us.

You represent the poison that will always hold this club back; your attacks are personal and tunnel-visioned.

James (#120), you get it; I think the silent majority all get it – at this club, we don't have a noisy minority – we have a raging minority. COYB

Dave Evans
125 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:44:09
Darren Hind.

The football over the last 18 months has lacked forward momentum and pace. Many players will choose a sideways pass rather than open themselves up to the risk of losing the ball with a forward pass or run. These are player management and confidence problems to which Koeman needs to find a solution.

However, despite these problems, we finished 7th and qualified for Europe. It would seem therefore reasonable, with a new influx of players and developing youngsters, to give Koeman a while longer.

Also, many supporters feel uncomfortable with others who, in a too quick and scathing way, dismiss Everton players as crap, eg, Barkley, Deulofeu, McCarthy, Jagielka, Lukaku, Barry under Martinez and now the new knee-jerk 'crap labels' against Martina, Williams, Rooney, Sandro, Schneiderlin and the just trending Sigurdsson.

A depressing lack of realism, objectivity and perspective as one wallow in turgid negativity is replaced by another.

Michael Williams
126 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:47:27
Dominic King of the Daily Mail on Niasse's locker: I have no idea if it's true and it is the Daily Mail after all, but this is what he writes:

"Koeman, bizarrely, tried to rewrite history after the game. Everton's manager insisted he had never closed the door on Niasse, how he 'never had a problem with him' and that stories of him not having a first team locker at Finch Farm last season was untrue.

"But if that was the case, how does the following get explained? Niasse has been so far out of the picture that his locker remains in the Under-23 dressing room and Koeman left him out of Everton's Europa League squad."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4915584/Everton-sub-Niasse-goes-joke-figure-unlikely-hero.html

David Barks
127 Posted 25/09/2017 at 22:58:03
Sad when we need the Daily Mail to call the Everton manager on his bullshit, isn't it?

Don't forget the fact he was the only player that they didn't bother fitting for a suit on match days.

Ray Roche
128 Posted 25/09/2017 at 23:00:28
Michael, I thought Niasse was left out of the Europa League squad because nobody thought he'd still be here to play in it. That actually makes some sense.
Tom Bowers
129 Posted 25/09/2017 at 23:11:17
Koeman looks like a deer in the headlights at times and it was only desperation with time running out that he had to make the changes. There is still away to go for him to convince the fans he has what it takes to turn this club around.

They still lack the zip and sharp passing that is needed against 9 men defences but Tom Davies has something which says he should start ahead of Klaassen for the next few games.

Soren Moyer
130 Posted 25/09/2017 at 23:15:04
I am delighted for the lad. Koeman Out!
James Lauwervine
131 Posted 26/09/2017 at 00:58:47
Stan (#121), I agree with the comments, particularly about the crowd, they're not incorrect. What a pompous thing to say.
Ian Hollingworth
132 Posted 26/09/2017 at 01:46:49
Glad to see so many Evertonians rated Niasse so highly.

Don't get me wrong I would love him to continue scoring whilst we win matches but I do think many on here are jumping on this story to bash Koeman.

I still think it's the club that lacks the real ambition we need to show and they are more than happy for us to argue amongst ourselves whilst we win fuck all and survive in the Premier League.

Darren Hind
133 Posted 26/09/2017 at 04:08:23
Steve Bird

Please try to think about what you are saying. The "91.2% of us" is a ridiculous figure you have quite obviously plucked from the sky.

It would be far more accurate to say 91.2% didn't register a comment. There is no revisionism going on here. Most people, if they're are honest, hadn't seen enough of Niasse to make a balanced judgement.

Let me have one more attempt to explain this to you as you seem to be having trouble grasping it... Many people were disgusted at the way Koeman treated Niasse. His comments (not for the first time) were downright nasty. Totally unnecessary and I clearly recall people coming on here, calling up phone-ins and expressing their disgust in the alehouses.

This (now listen to this bit) is not about Niasse's ability. It's still too early for anybody to make a sound judgement on that. Its about human dignity... while Koeman continues to demonstrate a rare degree of crass buffoonery. Niasse has simply kept a dignified silence.

The outpouring of joy you are witnessing throughout Evertonia (to which you are clearly taking exception) is because the guy showing all the class, the real Evertonian is delivering.

We don't know if he can sustain this form but we are loving the moment. Your attempts to berate the fans for demonstrating their affection of a guy who was prepared to buy a ticket will fall on deaf ears.

Your attempts to blame fans on the terrace for the turgid football we endure are as daft as the 91.2% you plucked from the air. There is one reason the people you label "so-called fans" are gloomy... and you are trying desperately hard to defend him.

Acceptance of mediocrity is what holds this club back. It's like the flu. Totally debilitating and a bastard to get rid of.

Darren Hind
134 Posted 26/09/2017 at 04:43:50
Dave (#125),

Are players really choosing to pass sideways? Or are we set up in a way that they don't have options in front of them.

We play most games with eight players on the pitch who's primary function is to stop the opposition. Two others will be expected to withdraw behind the ball every time the opposition get it.

Could the lack of confidence you speak about be a consequence of players having the certain knowledge that there is no "out" ball and that by playing the ball forward they are simply surrendering possession ?

Also; This criticism of players that upsets you so ? Are you suggesting that a certain section are responsible for all of the criticism all of the time?

People have all sorts of different opinions about players. One man's world beater is another man's carthorse. I have never met a supporter who hasn't been critical of one player or another – it's called opinion and without it, websites like this couldn't survive, The alehouses on County Road, would not survive. Without opinion, football itself would not survive

Brian Porter
135 Posted 26/09/2017 at 06:20:03
Paul Ward (#74), yet again you take me to task for expressing my opinion, though I thank you for the compliment, 'skillfully written.' At this point I will confess, I am a professional author, so I hope it was well written.

However, in this case all I have done is report what the national press are saying about Koeman's treatment of Niasse, which seems pretty much in line with the majority of posters on this thread.

Thank you to Joe Edwards (#117), and others who totally 'get it.'

After supporting this great club for 59 of my years on this planet, I have never before seen a player treated the, way Koeman has treated Niasse and hope never to see an Everton manager treat one of our players like it again.

You are correct in your assumption that I don't like Koeman, more so since he has tried to re-write the history of his treatment of the lad.

I find Koeman too be a classless bully, a poor man-manager, and a man without the humility to even admit that maybe, just maybe, he has made a mistake or two, and not just in regards of Niasse.

No matter what his abilities were at the time, no way did he deserve the amount of public humiliation lumped upon him by Koeman.

That was the simple point of my post. If you think I should be able to say something positive about Koeman, then yes, he brought Niasse and Davies on when he was staring another defeat in the face. Oh yes, and he wears some pretty smart suits!

Will Mabon
136 Posted 26/09/2017 at 06:27:50
"The constant berating of the manager by many on here completely goes against the ethos of supporting a team through thick and thin."

Berating the manager reflects his performance in several key aspects. The ethos of supporting the team remains. Poor attempt at coupling.

John G Davies
137 Posted 26/09/2017 at 07:19:57
Steve (#124),

I see what you did with the 91.2% post, most would. Not everyone grasped it though.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
138 Posted 26/09/2017 at 07:19:59
Brian – off topic for a moment...

As a professional author, I hope you don't mind if I ask you to hit the [Enter] key twice, instead of once, between paragraphs?

Your posts are usually a few paragraphs in length, skillfully written, of course; this would help to break up the text a bit, and make it a little easier to read on-screen.

Thanks!!!

Dave Wilson
139 Posted 26/09/2017 at 07:41:38
I grasped it, John.

First Steve said "everybody". Then he said 91.2% of "us".

Either way, he was speaking on behalf of an awful lot of Evertonians.

John G Davies
140 Posted 26/09/2017 at 07:59:41
He was taking the michael, Dave.
Dave Wilson
141 Posted 26/09/2017 at 08:04:56
He was exaggerating, John.
Jim Harrison
142 Posted 26/09/2017 at 08:39:36
Hold on! Fair play, lad has conducted himself very well. And has grasped the opportunity that has come his way. But let's not make out as if he was destined to be the club's saviour from the start!!

The guy who signed him didn't play him. Koeman, as he has stated recently, didn't want him as he had other players and wanted to sell him. He couldn't understand why a player who wasn't going to make the squad would want to stay. He did well at Hull, without really tearing up any trees. Garth Crooks recently noted how he looks a better player than he did at Hull.

His attitude is great. He has done all the right things and got a break because the club didn't get the players they wanted. Great stuff, thanks lad for believing you could make it and putting the effort in to get there, but why do we have to make out as if Koeman was wrong?

It's hardly as if he has scored 15 goals yet! Before in his few performances he didn't stand out as being a great player. Bar Palace, no club has come in for him. Perhaps we can accept that rather than being an error by the manager, this is a great story of how a player turned it all around? And how sweet it must be for him given the circumstances

Steve Bird
143 Posted 26/09/2017 at 08:47:57
Darren (#133),

You should put a net on the top of your head to catch all the stuff that is going completely over it. But thanks for taking the time, and having the patience to tell me where I am going wrong.

As Bob Dylan said "You're right from your side, I'm right from mine". Differing opinions are good and I'm glad I exasperate you, I know you speak from your heart (not your brain!).

Hugh Jenkins
144 Posted 26/09/2017 at 09:17:04
Mark Morrisey (28). I think the last thing we want is Koeman "coaching" him. I am not saying that I feel Koeman should be sacked, as many on here are advocating.

However, I think Niasse has made a strong hint that his improvement is due to his time in the U23s and I think you only needed to see Duncan's reaction to his goal, to realise that the greater influence on his improvement has been David Unsworth, Duncan Ferguson and the U23 squad team mates.

I honestly believe that Koeman can be the manager we want, but I also believe that he is going to have to change his footballing philosophy in order to achieve that.

Whether he can or not, I don't know.

Sam Hoare
145 Posted 26/09/2017 at 09:50:02
Mike @123, better than having no replacement!
Anthony Hawkins
146 Posted 26/09/2017 at 12:20:02
Following on from @Hugh Jenkins 144 – what we're seeing is Niasse and Davies working well together as they understand each other. We'll probably see a similarity between Holgate, Davies and Kenny etc.

The reason the Man Utd class of '92 worked so well was because they had grown up together and understood the strengths of each others' game. There's nothing wrong with that and, if anything, everything right with it.

It's not the pieces of the puzzle Koeman wanted but it's the strongest and biggest part he has.

Derek Knox
147 Posted 26/09/2017 at 12:47:54
Having read many posts on this subject now, and I think we all agree that the likes of Tom, Jonjoe and Oumar must be involved in upcoming fixtures.

I wonder though, apart from Koeman's stubbornness, is there any pressure from within the Club, to the effect, "We have sanctioned these enormous fees for players, at your recommendation (Koeman) therefore we expect you to play them."

Sam Hoare
148 Posted 26/09/2017 at 12:56:58
Thursday should be one of the easier games we'll have in theory. Of course, Everton reality is very different.

I'd like to see some of the fringe players given a shot. Does that mean resting the likes of Calvert-Lewin who is probably our first-pick striker at the moment?

I would like to see him and Lookman play together as I think they represent the future. Something like this perhaps:

Stekelenburg
Kenny Holgate Jagielka (if fit) Martina
Davies Schneiderlin Klaassen
Lookman Calvert-Lewin Sandro

Mike Hughes
149 Posted 26/09/2017 at 13:31:15
Brian (#135),

"...too be a classless bully..." and "...no way dud..." – Very poor for an author. Must try harder.

And that error was missed by Michael (#138), who is one of the editors on here.

Almost as bad as The Liverpool Echo or The Scum.

(Don't bother to thank me.)

Anyway, let's hope Niasse can continue to prove his point on the pitch and not give Koeman any cause for doubt. This is his opportunity to shine given our options up front. He did appear to be absolutely chuffed to score which was great to watch.

Kevin Tully
150 Posted 26/09/2017 at 13:48:22
I don't want to upset anyone, but I think you'll find over the course of a season, Niasse will prove to be a dud. Plenty of energy, and I like his style, but let's not pretend he is a replacement for Lukaku. If Hull didn't want him on a permanent deal, then I think that speaks volumes.

Saying that, I hope to be proved 100% wrong. It happened, once.

Martin Mason
151 Posted 26/09/2017 at 14:23:00
Derek @147

In a set up with a Director of Football such as Everton's is that the Head Coach states a requirement and not a recommendation. The whole idea is that the Head coach coaches the players he has and the purchasing of those players is an independent function.

He would certainly have no say in what was paid for the player so in this case I think your blame of him is wide of the mark. That isn't to say that he doesn't have input only that he isn't responsible or accountable.

Brian Williams
152 Posted 26/09/2017 at 14:27:57
Get your tin hat ready, Kev. I know what you mean though. Although I wouldn't use the term "dud", I don't think he'll have improved by as much as some may think/hope.

I know he scored against Man Utd and Liverpool last season, and also saved Koeman's blushes on Saturday by scoring a real cracker and a poachers goal, but like you I still have my misgivings. Like you as well I hope he proves me totally wrong.

I'll cheer and clap him in every game he plays anyway.

Sam Hoare
153 Posted 26/09/2017 at 14:48:59
Kevin, to be fair I don't think many (any?) think he'll score the goals that Lukaku did. But perhaps he might stumble to double figures?

If he's limited but tries his heart out and shows a little pace while doing so then I think that will probably satisfy me until January, when the board, Koeman and Walsh can hopefully rectify the massive failings of the last window.

Steavey Buckley
154 Posted 26/09/2017 at 14:58:17
Kevin, if in the unlikely scenario Niasse turns out to be a dud, to quote private Fraser of Dad's Army, Everton are doomed.

Since very few players (if none at all) at the moment can get into attacking positions and score goals, as many as Everton would need to avoid relegation.

It was because of Lukaku's goals, Everton were not relegated in the past, because then, like now, Everton don't have alternative goal scorers. The last scoring midfield player was Fellaini, and that was 5 seasons ago.

Dave Evans
155 Posted 26/09/2017 at 15:54:01
Darren (#134),

You make a good point about team set-up and selection being a factor in the positive character of a team but missed the main point that the responsibility and accountability for the problems are Koeman's and that he needs a little more time to find solutions.

You have invented a character in your head who is 'upset with player criticism so' in order then to go on a bizarre polemic about the consequences of the character not accepting different opinions – the annihilation of social media, the annihilation of alehouses – and football itself!

To repeat – fans can contribute to critical environment in which players play and this has the potential to effect players in a negative way. Under Martinez and now Koeman, it is banal that groups of players are so quickly and scathingly labelled crap.

Then again, we would be deprived of the glorious irony of the current situation with Niasse. Hope he scores next time.

Brian Porter
156 Posted 26/09/2017 at 16:30:48
Will do, Michael
Ray Robinson
157 Posted 26/09/2017 at 16:32:01
In looking to come up with solutions to what has been at best a mediocre start, lots of us are falling into what I think is a common trap and putting our total faith in alternatives that are at best unproved – on the basis that what hasn't been tarnished so far must automatically be better than what we've got currently.

I include myself in this category but is Niasse really as good as he appeared to be at the weekend? He's certainly better than I'd given him credit for (humble pie digested) but could he still turn out to be a poor player?

I love Tom Davies's skill, determination and energy but you can't ignore either that he was anonymous in many games last season - particularly away from home.

I'd love Kenny to establish himself in the right back position but how good is he? I certainly don't know yet. The quality of his crossing at the weekend was certainly better than Martina's but he did still manage to look a bit shaky when attacked in the full back position.

Holgate looks a fine prospect but also looked a bit raw at times in his natural centre-back position.

So, without absolving Koeman, who seems to be making a pigs ear of most things, I can perhaps understand why there is still uncertainty about the best starting XI. Of course, this doesn't excuse him from triplicating the No 10s, playing with Schneiderlin and Gana who are too similar and playing players out of position – but it could explain why he is still unconvinced about the best side to start a game. I certainly wouldn't be too sure of it – apart from Pickford in goal.

Until certain players start making a position their own beyond any reasonable doubt, which means achieving a level of consistency and which may take a considerable amount of time given the large influx of newcomers, don't expect things to necessarily improve rapidly. Keeping Niasse, Davies and Kenny in for the next game is certainly justifiable but won't necessarily fix the underlying problems.

Brian Porter
158 Posted 26/09/2017 at 16:55:21
Mike (#149). Thanks for pointing out my inadvertent typo. This is, of course, why the publishers employ beta readers, editors and proof readers to keep us mere authors on the straight and narrow and ensure the final published books are of a high standard.

In mitigation, it can be tricky maintaining 100% accuracy with my big fingers on this tiny phone keyboard. I will however plead guilty and go and spend an hour on the naughty step.

Brian Porter
159 Posted 26/09/2017 at 17:01:43
Kevin (#150), I may be mistaken, but it was my understanding that Hull would look at buying Niasse if they had kept their Premier League status. There was no way they could have afforded the fee or his expected salary if, as happened, they were relegated.
Christine Foster
160 Posted 26/09/2017 at 17:27:16
Paul Ferry (#102), quite right – it was a flagrant misuse of the English language to state that the rest of the population included you or Steven Jones or for that mater the few billion others on the planet.

Obviously in your mind, Koeman has been at the pinnacle of his game, yet may I remind you we were in the bottom three, down a goal and out of choices before he put Niasse on.

My unmitigated tirade against all things Koeman? For your information I am totally against the majority of decisions he has taken, his man-management and team set up. But it's not personal; indeed, if you read some of my posts on the subject I have not blamed him for no strikers signed but his alienation of what we have and have called for the return of Mirallas, Lookman, Niasse and Barkley as they give us better options than playing the way we are.

I don't talk for you,thank god, or do I agree with your views but I doubt they are in the majority and even if they were it would not prevent me from expressing my view without the malicious intent in the use of capital letters!

Despite the way he has been treated, the good grace of the man is refreshing, circumstances change and he is now playing because of the lack of other striking options and because the way we have been set up hasn't worked. That's Koeman's view by the way. We ran out of time and Koeman has as well.

John G Davies
161 Posted 26/09/2017 at 17:52:40
We ran out of time and Koeman has as well.

That's in your opinion, of course, Christie.

Graham Mockford
162 Posted 26/09/2017 at 18:15:31
Those posters criticising Koeman's treatment of Niasse are overlooking one minor detail.

In his first seven appearances he was absolutely woeful, as bad as I've witnessed. In one game I remember him finally touching the ball after about 20 minutes to ironic cheers from the ground.

I certainly don't remember many saying we shouldn't loan him to Hull or not sell him on deadline day.

It turns out maybe he's not as bad as he looked, he certainly has shown some admirable perseverance; however if I still had a significant chunk of a lucrative contract still remaining, I might not be in a rush to go somewhere else.

I still suspect he won't be good enough in the long run.

John Daley
164 Posted 26/09/2017 at 18:56:38
Graham (@162),

The fact Niasse looked gash, in what amounted to a grand total of 152 minutes of game time, meant such treatment was merited, then?

Sandro must really be shitting himself right about now, if that's the case.

It was never Niasse being sent out on loan, or nearly being sold on deadline day, that people objected to, but rather the unnecessary public demeaning and subsequent ostracising of the player as Koeman sought to pummel him into submission and a swift exit.

Darren Hind
165 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:19:34
Steve Bird,

Don't kid yourself, pal. Your attacks were too low to go over anybody's head. I just don't know who you think you are?

Who are you to criticise the matchgoer who has paid his hard earned and blame him for the dire shite served up by the guy you are falling over yourself to defend.

These guys who refuse to accept this shite are our only hope. People like you will accept and apologise for mediocrity and will only ever get what you deserve. You betray those calling for better, you are the enemy of ambition.

You claim you have supported this club for 50 years... so how come you don't know it? The Evertonians – the people you refer to as "so called fans" – have always been fair and supported the club, but they have never been shy in declaring shite when they see it... that's where you differ

You accuse me of thinking with my heart. I accuse you of not thinking at all. Your attacks on the symptom as opposed to the cause simply exposes your inability to see what's staring you in the face. Your ridiculous claims on behalf of "everyone" clearly demonstrates you don't understand how diverse opinion can be.

I'll let you into a little secret. There is not just two groups of people with two sets of beliefs that they stick to at all costs. There are hundreds of thousands with differing opinions about every single topic, but they will almost certainly be united in one belief. I'll wager that at least 91.2% fucking hate the zombie football you are apologising for.

When Koeman fucks off into the sunset with his saddle bags bulging, having taken this club for a proper ride, the "so-called fans" who make you so "ashamed" will still be here and they will still be parting with their hard earned to support the club they love... Remember, if you feel that ashamed, you can always go with him.

Dave Evans
166 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:23:29
Ray (#157). Good post.

At the moment the best team is not certain to many of us. It is Koeman's job to find it soon and with a more positive set up. I agree that Lookman and Calvert-Lewin need some playing time together.

Steve Bird
167 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:27:45
Darren (#165),

Nicely put; have a look at all my posts – I've never once praised Koeman. All I ever focus on is the negativity of fans like you.

How do you expect our players to produce under the worst home atmosphere in the Premier League?

Koeman disappoints me constantly but I still support the 11 shirts on the pitch.

I don't claim to be anyone, I just state my honest opinion, the 91.2% was an obvious joke that you missed as you were too busy attacking me – probably just like you attack our players at approx 3:02pm on a Saturday afternoon.

John Pierce
168 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:35:35
Fook, this thread is better than Emmerdale!

Also, like the farming community there is plenty of fresh steaming poo on it to, that includes my own wayward crazed drivel!

Maybe a fellow TWbbr can help? I was told, read, heard that Niasse was only ‘re-integrated' into the first team squad at the behest of the board to stop the player's value from being pissed up a wall somewhere, a bit like Barkley.

Is this true or did Ron ‘not for turning' Koeman ask for our Sengalese saviour* to pop back and have a kick about with the big lads off his own back?

Sounds more likely the board said "Ron, here's your centre-forward – get on with it, lad." But i'd love to know.

*other saviours are available

Brian Williams
169 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:42:14
John. In truth, nobody knows. Loads of us suppose and guess but that's it.
John G Davies
170 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:42:58
There is no such thing as a "proper Evertonian" or a "non-proper Evertonian", just an Evertonian. Very commendable of you Darren to stand up and point that out.

A shame you don't show the same principle towards season ticket holders you accuse of not going to the game. Double standards I suggest.

John Pierce
171 Posted 26/09/2017 at 19:51:35
Brian, it's totally possible I imagined the whole thing!

Through the cross pollination of various threads, podcasts, articles and social media, the guesses become whispers, then conspiracies eventually which become the truth!

Maybe Niasse is the 2nd coming?!

Darren Hind
172 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:01:27
I don't accuse season ticket holders of not going to the game. Just one person who forgets himself and posts on here asking me daft questions when I'm at the match.

Brian Williams
173 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:06:20
Not sure about the second coming, John, but I have to say that until he came on on Saturday, I just couldn't see where a goal was going to come from!!
Dermot Byrne
174 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:11:00
Darren,

Brexit needs you. A decent, empathetic yet diplomatic relationship builder. I will forward link to Government!

Brian Williams
175 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:11:45
Darren. Where do you sit at the games? I'm in the top balcony.
John G Davies
176 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:18:50
Darren, you have accused me of not being at the game a few times, is that last post aimed at me?

If so, what game was it during?

Stan Schofield
177 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:19:30
James@131: The comments @25 that basically say we all agreed with Koeman about his comments on Niasse last year, are factually incorrect. Quite a number of posts expressed surprise (and in some cases concern) about Koeman's comments, and we're not at all critical of Niasse.

So my point is simply about factual incorrectness, and I can't see why you would think it pompous.

Andy Crooks
178 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:23:31
Darren, you have made some decent points on this thread, you are a good debator, but... what does this mean?

"acceptance of mediocrity is what holds this club back".

Who the fuck is accepting mediocrity? Name them. How should I express my unacceptance of mediocrity. Should I hire a plane with a banner? Should I walk out of a game (not an option, as I can no longer afford to travel over). Should I start an online petition? You know as well as me how utterly shite that option is.

So, what do we do? Let's hear your thoughts on how to get rid of Koeman. I defend him because he is our man and we are stuck with him.

Honest to God, Darren, I get it, I am as fucking frustrated as you but what do we do?

Barry Williams
179 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:32:54
Brian Porter,

Completely off topic!

Brian, I have just written a book, about 165,000 words long, just proofreading it myself, I am finding the publication to be a minefield with many places wanting you to part with a lot of money, especially given the size of the manuscript. Any advice? I am thinking of self-publishing initially! It's a travel book based on my experiences abroad during an 8-year period!

Back on topic! Niasse has looked okay for a while, both at Hull, in the U23s and internationally from what I can gather. He brings something different to the team and Calvert-Lewin certainly looked better with him alongside him. plus he seems to have a good understanding with Davies; partnerships like that on the pitch cannot be underestimated!

Martin Mason
180 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:37:15
Darren, you accept mediocrity (whatever that may me) the same as anybody else here as you do nothing about it other than come on here and rant about the manager. You see everything as simplistic and black or white whilst the game is neither. We don't play well so it has to be the manager yet the reality is that everybody at the club has an influence and success comes from the top.

You accept mediocrity just the same as any other fan because that is what you are. You have no role in the club, no right to demand from the club and no influence whatsoever in how the club is run other than buying or not buying the product that they sell.

You accept mediocrity worse than most fans because you have no positive viewpoint – just a cracked record. Most of us have a much broader viewpoint concerning what is happening, what could happen and how this may be brought about.

Would you have fired Kendall in 1982-83 after dreadful performances when funnily enough we finished 7th which then was a real disgrace? Please answer this question.

Will Mabon
181 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:37:45
"This is, of course, why the publishers employ beta readers..."

You've done it again! Concentrate, Brian. Better readers, Brian... better readers.

Dermot Byrne
182 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:38:47
Brian... I suspect 2 balconies above!
Dermot Byrne
183 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:43:03
Barry... tough industry. All I do know is you cannot proof read your own text. Get someone else to do at least that. Editing is a different skill and that can then cost without publisher interest but also important.

My knowledge is just from the brutal but brill South African on my journalism training years ago. Week 1. You can never submit your own copy.

John G Davies
184 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:47:16
Darren,

Yet another fabrication. You will make anything up to try to prove your point. Pack it in please.

Brian Williams
185 Posted 26/09/2017 at 20:49:41
I have to say there appears to be a huge increase in the discord on TW, loads of personal insults, loads of petty, and often childish point scoring, arguments over grammar ffs.

I wonder if this is a reflection of the general "health" of the club and the football we watch?

Barry Williams
186 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:04:45
Dermot Byrne,

Thanks mate, I am finding out a lot about the industry very quickly. I am an English teacher by trade, so my proofreading skills aren't bad, but given the size of the document mistakes will be made! As for editing, yes it is a complete different skill set altogether!

Apologies to everyone for slightly hijacking the discussion! Sorry!

Darren Hind
188 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:21:32
Martin,

You are a prime example of an acceptor of mediocrity. Somebody who supports, apologise and excuses it. A card carrying Kenwright fan who will defend him to the death. A man who has completely blinded himself to what is patently obvious to so many other people. You're like an infatuated schoolgirl, screaming the house down every time somebody tells a home truth about your luvvie chairman.

Wanna another prime example ? look no further that post 25.

Here's a guy who is cannot bear criticism of the manager, such is his determination to accept this mediocrity, he will attack anybody who dares voice discontent. he will round on very people who are making their voices heard. those who will not accept mediocrity.

You say I have a simplistic view of the game? You need to listen to yourself, mate. You insist on trying to tell everybody that the people managing this club have got different titles to their official ones... different remits. There are no lengths to which you wont go in your ridiculous mission to try to convince people that Koeman has nothing to do with the signing of players.

You say I lay the blame on one person for our shite football. Well at least you got that right. Wanna know how I arrived at this conclusion?

I took all the playing staff into consideration; I realised how many have come and gone. Why so many skillful players have either left or want to leave. Then, when asking myself why we are still the ugliest team in the Premier League it came to me. The common denominator.

You say I cant do anything. You are wrong. I'm doing it. I will keep voicing my disapproval. I will be part of a growing number of people who will not accept what you so readily embrace. The longer we are fed zombie football the louder our voice will become. the louder our voice gets the more nervous Moshiri will get.

Fans have been pressurising chairman to sack incompetent mangers since professional football began. It may take a while, but Koeman will be one of them. You'll see.>

John G Davies
189 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:26:24
Darren,

Before you nip off to the factory, can you answer my question at #184 please.

Only fair if you have made a false accusation. If it's not me you were alluding to, fair enough.

Dave Evans
190 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:28:57
Martin (#180),

The Kendall situation is a good similarity. Koeman will ultimately be held accountable but, with the influx of new and developing players, he needs more time. The saying of such is not an acceptance of poor performances but a reasoned expectation that things will change.

Steve Bird
191 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:33:03
Darren

I reckon the poster at 25 was on the ball. Throughout his thread, no defence of Koeman – just a constant disappointment at the lack of support for players on the pitch from the crowd.

He makes some consistent points throughout his posts and at no time claims to be a Koeman fan.

Read all his posts again, it's a damn good read!!!

Andy Crooks
192 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:34:41
Barry, don't pay a penny to have your book published. You will up end up with a roof space filled with unwanted tomes that you can't shift at a car boot sale for a penny a copy.

Publish chapter by chapter online. If it is any good, it will see the light of day.

You need luck as well as talent. I have never written a book but I have represented some who have, and I have seen some shite sold and some good stuff not.

If anyone can contact me with the "Kenwright Story", the unauthorized biography, I will guarantee you publication.

Andy Crooks
193 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:34:42
Barry, don't pay a penny to have your book published. You will up end up with a roof space filled with unwanted tomes that you can' t shift at a car boot sale for a penny a copy.

Publish chapter by chapter online. If it is any good it will see the light of day. You need luck as well as talent. I have never written a book but I have represented some who have, and I have seen some shite sold and some good stuff not.

If anyone can contact me with the "Kenwright Story", the unauthorized biography,,I will.guarantee you publication.

Dave Evans
194 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:35:54
Darren. You never answered the question put to you. Would you have been calling for the sacking of Kendall in 83?
Darren Hind
195 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:44:33
No I would most definitely not have called for Kendall to be sacked. in fact I didn't.

There is a world of difference between the two situations. One manager loved the club and although results were not going his way, he was determined to play the game properly and his players believed in him. passion flair and adventure.

The other was the most negative manager in our history. Made Moyes look like Kevin Keegan. a man who simply came for the money. a man who still refers to us as 'Everton'. A man who has taken away all pride in the way we play the game.

A typical Masonic post, desperately trying to compare this buffoon with an all time Everton great. Hang your head fella.


Andy Crooks
196 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:50:51
Darren, you are talking about Koeman in the past tense. What do you know!?
Barry Williams
197 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:53:15
Andy Crooks,

Thanks mate. Those that contacted me the quickest were indeed the ones who wanted me to part with considerable amounts of cash, which I didn't!

The online way seems to be the most sensible to break into the industry and chapter by chapter seems fair play!

Again, soz folks!

My next effort, Niasse – A Meandering Road!

Martin Mason
198 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:55:36
So Darren, you would sack Koeman, not Kendall – despite exactly the same circumstances? Kendall was clueless for 2 years and pulled it round. Why shouldn't Koeman?

Love of the club is irrelevant.

Dave Evans
199 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:58:11
Darren, I don't believe you. You are a 'fella' who is capable of rewriting history and putting on the passion with the obvious intention of self-defence.
Andy Crooks
200 Posted 26/09/2017 at 21:58:41
Also, Darren, the vitriol against Howard was pre-internet and was (in the happy days when I had a season ticket) vociferous and match going.

I would be interested to know what the matchday atmosphere is like toward Koeman. Now that is what will remove him, if an when. Not us keyboard pundits.

Darren Hind
201 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:06:54
Dave,

You asked a question; I answered it. I'm not interested in whether you believe me or not.

Yes Andy, I believe that too. It will be the match goers who make Moshiri nervous enough call the taxi.

Dave Evans
202 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:10:51
Not even interested in the reasons I gave for not believing you?
Darren Hind
203 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:12:02
Nope.

Night all.

David Barks
204 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:19:49
God, I hate the "whattabouttism" people spout when trying to dodge the situation at hand.

"What about Kendall, would you want him sacked?" Irrelevant. The two have nothing in common in how they managed the team, their background with the team, the way they had the team play, and the state of the club in present day.

Koeman has been manager for nearly one and a half years. During that time, the style of football has gone backward. The level and quality of play, regardless of opponent, whether it is United and Spurs or Split, Stoke and Bournemouth has been woeful.

Koeman has repeatedly had issues with man management. Not just here, but at his other clubs. He's not the only manager to do this. But the likes of Conte and Mourinho win every trophy under the sun. Koeman, not so much. His public utterances about Barkley, Niasse, and Mirallas during his time here have been a bit of a trend.

He sent Deulofeu out when we absolutely could have used him. He absolutely refuses to put players in their natural positions. People try to give him a pass for setting up defensively against the "big clubs" but ignore the fact that he does the same damn thing against Bournemouth at home.

So I don't give two shits about who would have said what about Kendall. What I care about is the God awful football being served up at Everton under this manager and the fact that we struggled to even get a shot on goal for nearly a damn month.

I care about the fact that he seems to have a real problem with attacking players that are patently attack first in favor of defensive lineups.

I care about the fact that Schneiderlin seems to be immune from his wrath but Barkley and Mirallas will be dropped in a heartbeat.

And I care about the patently obvious fact that he wanted to bring in a former player in Martina, a third choice right-back at Southampton, and is playing him over better options at the club in both the youth team or by adjusting to a 3 at the back and using an actual attacking wing back – similar to what Conte did with Victor Moses.

Don Alexander
205 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:24:52
Darren, one of the things you do is practice the very things you rail against, repeatedly. For example in your post at #133 you take Steve to task by stating;

Steve, "The "91.2% of us" is a ridiculous figure you have quite obviously plucked from the sky."

Okay, you've made known your opinion that (allegedly) invented stats are risible, but then in your post at #165 what do we see you saying in further response to him? We see this:

Steve, "Don't kid yourself pal. Your attacks were too low to go over anybody's head. I just don't know who you think you are?"

So for you your own rules don't apply. Or perhaps you can state how you knowhis views were too low to go over anyone's head? Attacking as you do in this way denigrates the personalities of those who are of an opinion not exactly in accordance with your one, by now monumentally boring, point of view.

You do indeed have double standards, as stated above, particularly exemplified for me by your previous denigration of Martin Mason who you lambasted for having allegedly stated he'd have accepted a defeat had it led to the dismissal of Martinez. I was staggered to then read you stating that providing our team played well you'd accept defeat too!

Darren, as said, you have but one opinion on who you chiefly blame for the woes you ascribe to our club, repeated ad nauseam.

For the record I'm certain every TW'er knows what your opinion is too, but I've no proof!

Dave Evans
206 Posted 26/09/2017 at 22:26:46
The thing we all have in common is the love of Everton. Night all.
Brian Porter
207 Posted 27/09/2017 at 01:12:23
Will Mabon (#181), a beta reader (not a better reader), is someone who reads an author's work and makes suggestions relating to changes in grammar, corrects spelling mistakes (quite common when the writer is typing at speed), and generally looks to tidy up the manuscript before it goes to the editor.

Once the editor and author have agreed on what is by then an almost finished manuscript, it then goes to the proof reader who gives it another once over, again correcting errors in spelling, grammar, formatting etc.

So it's wise to know a little about the industry and how it works, and the job titles of those involved in the publishing industry before sending me to the naughty step again... but thanks for trying to keep me on the straight and narrow. I have a superb beta reader in Liverpool, but if ever you fancy a go... LOL 😁

Will Mabon
208 Posted 27/09/2017 at 01:29:01
Brian, I knew someone would fall for it – but I bet you wondered for a while...
Will Mabon
209 Posted 27/09/2017 at 01:59:30
David @ 204:

You got in all the pertinent issues with Koeman there, and I agree wholeheartedly.

I posted elsewhere that Koeman described the later attacking play that saved us versus Bournemouth, as "...more direct than we usually play". A very indicative statement, the only such thing he's ever said that I'm aware.

This guy will ruin this team further if allowed. He'll not rest to get Barkley out and maybe others, and will make other disappointing, unnecessary signings.

What we saw later on in Saturday's game was an all-too-rare snapshot of how things could be for much more of the time, as an ethos, with a manager prepared to build a team as a pacier, attacking force. Koeman is not that manager.

Paul Ferry
210 Posted 27/09/2017 at 03:37:09
Christine Foster (#160).

'Obviously in your mind, Koeman has been at the pinnacle of his game'.

LOL, Christine – you're funny. Again, talking on behalf of others. Misrepresenting the people whose mouths you put words in.

It's either black or white for you, isn't it? No shades of grey. You can't resist it, can you? 'The pinnacle of his game'!!!

The many Evertonians I mix with know exactly my views on Koeman. My reply was to your 'spokeswoman of the masses' rubbish. ToffeeWeb, because of tirade-fumed folks like you, is not representative of the many many Evertonians I know. Each one of those fools is in my opinion claiming that faultless Koeman is at 'the pinnacle of his game'.

Right?

Brian Porter
211 Posted 27/09/2017 at 06:18:07
Barry Williams (#179). Re your inquiry about publishing your book. I have to admit I have been very fortunate. From the time I wrote my first novel, I was never faced with having to self-publish, which in all honesty is expensive and usually wholly unprofitable.

I had sent my first manuscript to about twenty UK publishers and agents without success. I was then advised by a friend to try American and other international publishers using the internet.

I did and was amazed to be accepted by a Canadian publisher that went on to publish my first four novels.

Over the years I have progressed until I now have a first class publisher in Finland, and fourteen Amazon best sellers to my name.

Traditional publishing is by far the best route for a full time author, as the publisher covers all the costs of publishing, editing promotion and marketing etc. (That's not to say the author can't do some promotion of their work too, as I do quite a bit myself.)

With self-publishing you are left to pay all the costs yourself and will probably end up with a loft or cellar full of unsold books, which may take years to shift. The publishing world tends to look down on self published or vanity published books, somehow not accepting them as 'legitimately' published, as anyone can pay to have a book produced whereas in the traditional publishing world, only those who's books have been screened and accepted by a published willing to invest in the book, see their work in print.

I'd be happy to give you further advice but am not sure how to get in touch without putting my personal email address on the site.

I do wish you success and if I can be of help, I'd be only too happy. Perhaps, with my permission, Lyndon or one of the site admins could privately pass my email address to you.

Brian Porter
212 Posted 27/09/2017 at 06:27:35
Will Mabon #208, in the words of the Pythons, "you're a very naughty, naughty boy." You got me, nice one 😊. By the way, I totally agree with your point at #209.
John G Davies
213 Posted 27/09/2017 at 06:43:01
Don,

Darren does it quite often. To listen to him now about Koeman, you would find it hard to believe the comment he made last season that Koeman would be the man to restore us to our former glory.

John Daley
214 Posted 27/09/2017 at 07:23:06
Don @205,

Are you seriously suggesting there is not a clear and distinct difference between someone stating they can accept defeat as long as the team go out and give it a damn good go, and another saying they would be "happy" to watch their team lose repeatedly, if it resulted in the manager being given the heave-ho (as that is indeed what Martin said when Martinez was in charge, nothing 'alleged' about it)?

That's much more akin to deliberate distortion on your part, rather than 'double standards' from Darren.

"Double standards" would be something along the lines of... oh, I don't know... beginning a sentence by bleating about the 'denigration' of another's opinion, before finishing with a declaration that someone else is as boring as fuck.

Brian Porter
215 Posted 27/09/2017 at 08:34:27
Barry (#179), I was half asleep when I wrote my previous reply to your post. If you want to get in touch re your proposed book, and if you are on Facebook, you can always get in touch with me. (as Harry Porter), on either Fans of Brian L Porter or The Mersey Mysteries by Brian L Porter.
Martin Mason
216 Posted 27/09/2017 at 09:21:54
John @214. An individual fan has the absolute right to accept a defeat if the outcome is that a patently incompetent manager gets the boot. This would of course be conditional on a worse outcome such as relegation not happening. As you say, it is no different to saying we would accept defeat as long as the team played in a certain way.

In my case, Everton lost, Martinez was sacked, and no more serious outcome occurred. As such, I stand by what I said and would never criticise any fan who raised a similar opinion – let alone express some kind of fake outrage about it.

Martin Mason
217 Posted 27/09/2017 at 09:26:50
David @204 The situation with Kendall and Koeman was exactly the same with a couple of seasons of poor performance. We know what eventually happened with Kendall and that may happen with Koeman too.

The question was, as we call for the sacking of Koeman now, would we, in hindsight, have sacked Kendall at the same time? Many were calling for his sacking but there wasn't the curse of social media then to provide a loud speaker.

John Daley
218 Posted 27/09/2017 at 10:16:16
"An individual fan has the absolute right to accept a defeat if the outcome is that a patently incompetent manager gets the boot."

Of course Martin, a fan can be accepting of anything they choose. That's their look out.

However, as already stated in my last post, that's not exactly what you said, is it? You did not come on here and say you would begrudgingly accept a solitary defeat if it meant Martinez were to be given the shove. Instead, you claimed you would be "deliriously happy" to see Everton lose every single game until the end of the season, if it resulted in his sacking.

A completely different sentiment to saying you could stomach a tonking if the team at least tried, went out to attack or wiped their arse on the opposition mascots furry severed head in full view of the sodding kids.

In one, you're still very much wanting to see your team go out, give their best and entertain. You're still hoping for a victory, even though you would not react viciously if it fails to materialise, provided defeat is met in a verveful, vibrant manner.

In the other, you're actively hoping for the team you support to be handed their arse, game after game after game, readying a great big smile for when Everton get fucking beat, while everybody else streams out the ground gutted and/or worried sick (even the non-Evertonian manager you simply can't stand).


Martin Mason
219 Posted 27/09/2017 at 10:59:28
John

Whatever I said, and I don't believe it is what or how you claim, it is my right to say or think it. I can't influence results by what I say but it's a fair cop, I'm guilty of unpure football thought. Luckily, this isn't a crime yet.

I'm sure that you understand the concept of figure of speech. If I said that I'd give my right arm for a win on Saturday, would you worry about me if we won?

John Daley
220 Posted 27/09/2017 at 11:32:24
Of course I wouldn't worry unduly, Martin.

One is obviously an ages old idiom, the other an alien concept to most supporters.

My post wasn't meant as a pop at you. Rather, it was merely a means of taking umbrage with Don's 'desperate to prove a point' assertion that a supporter saying they would accept a defeat, provided their team went out to try and win, is no different to one saying they would be happy to see their team get beat... repeatedly... if it guaranteed someone losing their job as a result.

To me they are as different as night and day.


"I don't believe it is what or how you claim"

Fair enough.

"I would gladly lose all our remaining games but one and be deliriously happy if I could guarantee seeing him being put on the dole".

If you're going to "stand by" a statement, probably best not to try and dust it down a bit to make it more presentable.

Barry Williams
221 Posted 27/09/2017 at 12:13:50
Brian Porter,

You are a star, I will be in touch. I am tiptoeing through the minefield that is the publishing industry at the moment. There are many willing to lift me from the minefield, but they want a lot of money to do it.

Your help is much appreciated!

Laurie Hartley
222 Posted 27/09/2017 at 12:46:14
I didn't like Koeman's treatment of Niasse and posted to that effect at the time. It just didn't sit right with me. Sad to say, I was prepared to overlook my instincts because I thought Koeman would get us back on track after our demise under Martinez. Moral of the story for me is always go with your gut feelings.

Since my visit to Goodison for the Spurs game, I've been pondering over our current situation and come to the conclusion (based on my limited knowledge of the game) that the midfield of a team sets the style and tempo of play.

So using Darren's interesting analogy at #195 :-

Made Moyes look like Kevin Keegan.

I did a quick comparison of both managers' "main men" in midfield:

Arteta, Pienaar, Osman, Cahill and Fellaini
Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson, Klaassen, Gueye, and Vlasic

My conclusion is that Dour Dave's men had more football guile and attacking threat than Koeman's.

One conclusion I did draw from the Spurs game is that Rooney has the best football brain in our squad. I think he should be played in midfield with Tom Davies at the expense of Schneiderlin and Klaassen.

And no, I don't want Moyes back but he might make someone a good Director of Football.

Don Alexander
223 Posted 27/09/2017 at 13:24:59
John Daley,

Silly me, I relied on Darren's comment re condemnation of Martin being correct. Darren cited "a semi-final", singular, not "every match". That's why I used the word "alleged" too, simply because I had no personal memory.

As for sort-of accepting "verveful, vibrant" defeat, rather than reacting as your pal Mr Hind does to anyone he deems to be in opposition to his one-track mantra, well, whatever floats your boat. Me, I want to see wins, end of.

Do you often find yourself humming, "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles" by the way?

Martin Mason
224 Posted 27/09/2017 at 14:27:03
John @220, it's very clear from that quote that I didn't say that I wanted Everton to get beat. What I said was that I'd be happy only if it resulted in Martinez getting the boot. See the difference?

The inference is that I wouldn't be happy under any other circumstance. At no point did I say that I wanted Everton to get beat.

Dave Wilson
225 Posted 27/09/2017 at 14:55:11
Martin,

Not sure why you would say that.

TW has always been a platform for passionate debate and sometimes the divisions will last throughout the time the individual being debated is at the club.

As with Martinez. the divisions cease as soon as the person responsible for the divisions has gone. New divisions will then spring up and the merits and shortcomings of different players/managers will be debated.

I used to post regularly, but I tend to be an onlooker on the sidelines these days. I can honestly say in years of visiting these pages, I can only remember one occasion when condemnation of a single post was universal. It was the time you said you wanted us to lose the semi final to Manchester united.

Daniel Lim
226 Posted 27/09/2017 at 15:32:27
I was interested to know how Darren answered the tough question. And he did it at 195, and I think his answer was excellent.

One was an Evertonian through and through, one refers to his club as "Everton" as if he's an outsider. I thought he stop doing that early September or late August when I read that he used the word "we" but soon after that it's "Everton" again.

Yes, I agree with Darren, if a manager tries "in the right way", if that's such a thing, but results don't follow, he deserves more patience than another manager who spent £150m-200m and plays four No 10s in his lineup.

I called for those at the live forum to flood the club's Twitter account after Josh King's goal. And I did that. I would continue to do that if I see tomorrow he's putting out another similar lineup. I will continue to do that until he's gone or he changes his way (unlikely).

Brian Porter
227 Posted 27/09/2017 at 15:48:09
You're welcome, Barry (#121). There are too many sharks in the industry who are waiting for the unwary would-be authors in the world. They will charge a big fat fee, usually to tell you things you can learn for free om the internet.

And there are a lot of vanity publishers masquerading as traditional publishers who will reel you in and you don't know they are going it till you get a big fat bill.

If I can give you any help or advice, I'll be only too happy to do so.

Daniel Lim
228 Posted 27/09/2017 at 15:48:51
Recently on the live forum for the Spurs game, someone suggested that we would get beat 10-0. I then added, if 10-0 wouldn't get Ronald Koeman sacked but 11-0 would, then I would want us to get beat 11-0.

Does this disqualify me as Evertonian?

Martin Mason
229 Posted 27/09/2017 at 15:50:53
Daniel,

I watched Everton during the first couple of years of Howard Kendall and – believe me – they were just as awful as they are now. Also, Alex Ferguson was within a game of the sack after a similar initial period during which Manchester United were woeful.

It is surely completely illogical to call for Koeman's head immediately and yet not agree that both Kendall and Ferguson should have been sacked at identical points in their career. You can't use the excuse with hindsight that they both turned the situation around as it is possible that Koeman will do the same.

The time to judge Koeman is the end of the year or before if it becomes absolutely clear beyond any doubt that he's not going to achieve it.

James Hughes
230 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:11:23
Daniel, yes mate it means you are now banned, You must hand back any and all replica kits, scarves, programmes etc – they should be handed in to The Winslow as soon as possible. (Soon to be renamed the Koeman Arms or Playslow.)

Also, can you erase any EFC related memories and take up lawn bowls. Thanks for your cooperation on this matter.

TBH, I have no idea what point John & Martin are trying to make, wish they would stop though.

Daniel Lim
231 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:21:58
Martin,

I admit that I did not watch football (not only Everton) in 1982-83, so I have no idea how bad it was.

But what about:
1. Publicly insulting players?
2. Stubbornly playing four No 10s?
3. Getting rid of players, either via loan or direct sale, when the positions they played at obviously could do with some cover?

The third one is up for debate, I know.

I think Koeman's problem is not only the performance of the team; it's also about his man- and match-management.

Daniel Lim
232 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:25:15
No, James, my son loves the replica I bought for him last Christmas.

Don't be so cruel.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
233 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:38:45
Martin (#229),

"The time to judge Koeman is the end of the year or before if it becomes absolutely clear beyond any doubt that he's not going to achieve it."

Do you really mean the end of the year (2017), ie, December? Or do you mean (as many lazily do) the end of the season (ie, May)?

And achieve what exactly?

Martin Mason
234 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:39:32
Daniel, sorry, I'm not defending Koeman. I think he is a disaster, guilty of the charges you raise and I can't see him surviving. My only point is that at least two managers turned around hopeless situations to become majorly successful and would have been sacked had their clubs taken the option currently suggested for Koeman now.
John G Davies
235 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:42:17
Michael,

He should be given until the end of the season. Obviously unless we are in the bottom half of the table after the transfer window. Then it would have to be looked at.

Martin Mason
236 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:47:38
Michael, I would say that the end of the year 2017 will be a good time to judge Koeman. New players should be settled in, we have half a season of league games and the Europa League games to judge how he is performing. At the moment, I believe he still has a chance to turn things around if he is as good as many believe him to be.
Laurie Hartley
237 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:47:49
Michael or Lyndon - whichever one of you tidied up the layout and punctuation of my post at 222 - thank you. It looks much beta now. :)
Mark Murphy
238 Posted 27/09/2017 at 16:57:18
Daniel, I did watch Everton in those dark days... and yes – it was bad – I was one of the 11,000 diehards at that Coventry match when cushions rained from the stands (not one of the 50,000 who claim to have been there...)

But I digress. The difference is, Martin, the players were shite. We had the nucleus of the soon-to-be great side but, with all due respect, players like Mick Ferguson were nowhere near as good as the players Koeman has at his disposal, so in my view it's not quite the same.

Also, my memory may not be what it was but, even in the days of Joe Harper and Jim Pearson, I don't remember going 4 games with only 5 or so shots. We always went forward whereas now we seem to play almost relentlessly sideways or back.

But give him to the end of the season (and no more); I think he'll bring a striker in in January so let's see what he does with him.

James Hughes
239 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:11:46
Daniel, sorry but rules are rules. Your boy can keep his replicas and you must... well, what can I say?

Sorry, can't be cruel, you have to stay as well. Cancelled the lawn bowls membership for you as well.

Michael Kenrick
240 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:20:54
Martin, thank you. Sorry to question your word choice when it was exactly what you meant.

Personally, I think he'll be given a lot longer – the full project – unless we get sucked in to an all-out relegation scrap. Only at that point would I expect Moshiri to act.

Laurie... shhh. It's supposed to be undetectable. Otherwise, they'll all want the same service!

Paul Tran
241 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:26:33
Good point, Mark. I was there too (honest!) and I remember the ramshackle team of journeymen, mixed with some promising youngsters, some of whom ended up as greats. I even remember the volley throw-in, which was hoofball before hoofball. Kendall would have been shredded on social media, had it existed.

I think Kendall kept his job for two reasons. One, because of who he was. Two, because the board had the sense to see the quality of younger players he had bought and/or was bringing through.

If you're being objective, it's clear Koeman bought better players; it's also clear that he isn't getting the best out of them.

Interesting one for Moshiri. He's clearly gone for the big name manager, new stadium, "let's get top four" scenario. Does he go for the 'next Klopp' in Tuchel? Does he gamble on Unsworth and scrap his 'big name' fantasy? Does he go for Ancelotti next summer? Or does he hope that his man Koeman delivers?

I normally take Koeman's words with a pinch of salt. He is an inarticulate man with a limited grasp of English. But that statement "different to the way we normally play" registered with me. I wanted the interviewer to push him on that; did he mean we haven't been playing quickly enough, or we 'normally' play at his preferred pace?

If it's the former, let's change it from tomorrow. If it's the latter, I'm done with him.

Martin Mason
242 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:52:06
I believe that Moshiri has too much invested in Koeman as part of the project to sack him quickly. They want stability at the moment as they try to build a top team and at the same time balance finances for a new stadium and hopefully to make any improvements in the financing of the club sustainable.

I'm hoping that the board see genuine promise and that Koeman is the man to take it forward with what is happening now just a bump in the road. I can dream that Niasse is a latter day Andy Gray, seen as washed up but still to have a key influence.

Steve Bird
243 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:52:11
John G Davies (#235),

Now we are talking , some common sense, constructive views , this thread has turned itself around a little.

Thank god after all that reactionary accusative nonsense from last night!!

Always allow others the latitude you would expect yourself. Numerous young players. Numerous new signings. Only the deluded and the short sighted would expect everything to knit together immediately.

Paul Tran
244 Posted 27/09/2017 at 17:56:29
I suspect you're right, Martin. If Niasse has half the impact Andy Gray had, I'm looking forward to seeing it!
Martin Mason
245 Posted 27/09/2017 at 18:21:51
We can only hope, Paul, but wouldn't it be great?
John Pierce
246 Posted 27/09/2017 at 18:26:12
Well, I'm not sure how you measure Moshiri's patience but I will add this.

Everton have adopted a Director of Football model that makes managers far more dispensable than ever, especially you have the right Director of Football in charge, not sure we have buts thats for another day. Because if you have the right coach he should be able to reach the targets set given the resources of the club.

Moshiri sacked Martinez for finishing 11th. That must be the bar, well actually not finishing 7th minimum would be criminal, but I'm not the fella calling the shots.

‘Project' or not that doesn't mean accepting a shit show for 2 years & peaking at the end. There is a minimum to expect from Koeman and that's 7th, at least a quarter final in a cup competition, and something akin to attacking football, Everton being the 7th-best resourced team in the land.

Its mostly objective, measurable and realistic based on our squad, manager and clubs pedigree.

Anything less is failure, and for what is worth, Koeman should be working to those pressures and be reminded in a timely fashion should those objectives be at risk.

Christine Foster
247 Posted 27/09/2017 at 18:37:21
Paul Ferry, "Spokeswoman of the masses?" I speak for me and me alone.

Shame you do not understand sarcasm but if you want to take things out of context to have a pop at me personally, feel free because you have not addressed any of the points I made, regarding where we were in the league, our performances, Koeman's decisions, the fact that the media and commentators, fans on here and in the ground could see how poorly we are playing under Koeman's system.

But no;, have a personal dig at the messenger if you cannot dispute the facts. So let me ask you, are you happy with the way we set up and play? What exactly do you disagree with me about the way Koeman has handled players, his comments or tactics?

Tirade against Koeman? Give me a break, you don't know the meaning of the word, and I challenge you to specify exactly where and when I have conducted a tirade against the man. I do not think he should be in the job and I do not think he is a straight shooter.

That is no more, no less than many other posters on this site. I do not speak for you and I have never proclaimed that I did; you took a phrase out of context but that's okay, it was meant as a generalism not a specific, but of course you knew what I meant, you just needed a hammer to hit the nail..

I am not alone in my views but I do not for one moment assume a spokesperson role for anyone or anything. Go play tick with the buses...

James Lauwervine
248 Posted 27/09/2017 at 18:44:28
Stan (#177), as I said, it was the comments about the crowd I particularly agreed with. Anyway, I remember when Koeman dismissed Niasse as shite after 45 mins and I don't remember anyone disagreeing on here as he'd unsurprisingly already been slated.

Yes I'm sure there's a post or two you can dig out to prove me wrong. To be fair he did look shite in his early appearances. Koeman's treatment of him after that was shockingly disrespectful I agree.

Maybe he was trying to stamp his authority and play the big man but he got it badly wrong. I stand by the comments about the negative atmosphere though, I find it embarrassing.

Lawrence Green
249 Posted 27/09/2017 at 18:52:04
The idea that Kendall's time, at least initially, was similar to where Everton FC finds itself now is not how I remember things. Kendall had a set way of playing and generally purchased players who could fulfil their roles in his preferred way of playing.

As with most things, memory is very subjective when it comes to style of play, attacking intent etc. But whilst Howard's first season could be written off as a bedding-in period and his second season one of 'close but no cigar' territory the expectations from quite a few Evertonians at that time, was that his side would have more of an impact at the higher end of the table. Unfortunately, his team had a habit of missing too many chances and too many probable victories turned into draws or defeats.

The pressure was certainly on him and his team by Christmas 1983 and it did look as if his days were numbered as the fans decided to vote with their feet, at a time when they were the main income stream of the club.

Of course there were lucky breaks involved along the way but Kendall did have a philosophy and he didn't often transgress from that philosophy, showing that he was as hard-headed as other major managers, which eventually led to his and Everton FC's success.

But that success was based on having the right players playing the right way, have a look at the record books and see how many different players scored ten or more goals in the seasons that Kendall was in charge, prior to the 'magic' season of 1984-85.

Koeman's team, so far, doesn't appear to have any semblance of a pattern of play or any discernible style. It's either launch it as quickly as possible up the pitch or mess around with it in areas that don't often threaten the opposition.

It wasn't until the last quarter of last Saturday's match that I saw Koeman's Everton look as if they knew what they were doing and showed the necessary energy and drive to look as if they might win the game. It was probably an undeserved result overall; however, all those years ago, we may have had many undeserved results but it's what goes in the record books that counts.

Perhaps, if Koeman is to learn one thing from his Everton career so far, it is that hungry players are required within the team either en masse or at least a fair smattering of them. Those who have been at the club for a long period of time, haven't got that hunger to win as has been proved under different taskmasters and those that have arrived in more recent times, may, think that they have reached the pinnacle of their careers or have found a place to play football without the demands made on them at their previous clubs.

1983 and 2017 are world's apart in almost every way, and looking back and using it as a comparison to what is happening now isn't the most productive pastime.

Whichever Everton manager that manages to put a trophy in the Everton FC trophy room will be remembered forever in these parts and personally I don't care if that person is insular, outgoing, handsome, ugly, Dutch, Swedish, Chinese or any other nationality – I just hope that I'm still around to witness it.

In the meantime a few more attacking displays from an Everton side that looks like a team, wouldn't go amiss with me and, I suspect, a few thousand other regular visitors to Goodison.

Koeman can address that issue in the upcoming fixtures and if he finds the right blend who knows where it may lead. If he doesn't find that blend then the baton will be handed to the next person charged with bringing Everton FC success – it's fun this football lark isn't it?


Darren Hind
250 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:03:49
Don Alexander (#205)

I'm really surprised that you were staggered when you read that I'd said "Providing we play well I would accept defeat" – especially as I didn't say it.

You do of course have an opportunity to put the post up and prove you were not lying in order to score a cheap point.

Its supremely ironic that somebody who has spent months apologising for the defeats AND the zombie football would think they could score a point on such an issue.

Go back and read what I actually said.

Martin Mason,

You are right about one thing; You certainly stood by what you said, even when you were repeatedly challenged about the semi final you were adamant you wanted us to lose. The outrage expressed by people on here wasn't not false, .nor was the disgust.

They are one of our bitterest rivals, it was a golden opportunity for the under 25's to get to see us in a cup final... but you thought it was more important to get rid of the manager.

Oh and please stop these idiotic comparisons between Koeman and Kendall. Kendall was put in charge when the money ran out. but the expectations were still great. He was operating on a shoe string so tight he was forced to play himself.

Liverpool were champions of Europe and were parading through the city waving trophy after trophy which put him under a pressure no previous Everton manager had experienced.

Koeman on the other hand came in when seventh was treated by some as an open top bus event. He was given one of the biggest war chest in world football to build his team and he is coming under no local pressure from the crowd across the park because the Red Shite have been. err, Shite... and, unlike under Kendall, there have been no signs. Just 18 months of the dread Zombie Football.

You're foolish comparison is an affront to the intelligence of every fan who lived through both eras.


Martin Mason
251 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:23:31
Darren,

I lived and watched through both eras and stand by the comparison. In fact I would say that we were worse then. Until the turnaround after Oxford away, Kendall was the worst manager I'd ever seen at Everton based on style and results. He also produced a Championship winning side on the same budget that he produced mediocrity in his early years.

I completely stand by my acceptance of "lose a game to get rid of a crap manager". A minor trade off especially over a game we were going to lose anyway. I never said I wanted Everton to lose only that I'd accept it.

I would also say that it was far easier for an Everton manager to make mighty Everton a top side in 1983 than it is now so it puts Kendall 83 and Ferguson in an even worse light.

Biggest war chest in world football? Wasn't the net spend about zero this window – just the same as Kendall's?

Come on Darren, you know you've lost it now. What are you going to do though, moan a bit more?


Dave Abrahams
252 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:37:11
Christine (#247), 'Go play tick with the buses' – Christine you proved you're a townie with that one.
Darren Hind
253 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:43:18
You do make me cringe, Martin.

You betray the dream of every Evertonian by rejoicing in a semi-final defeat which broke hundreds of thousands of Evertonian hearts... because you wanted to be right. Yes, it is against the fan code, it's the against the unwritten one which everyone, but you seems to be aware of. The one that says "I want my team to win the cup".

Let me tell you something: most were on to Martinez long before you flip flopped and started you`re Robby out champagne, but they were prepared to put their personal feelings on the back burner. They wanted success for their beloved club. Not you; for you, it was all about you.

Your claims that there is a comparison between Koeman's situation and Kendall's doesn't mean I've lost it (that's only in your dreams); it simply means you have painted yourself into a dunces corner and are stubbornly refusing to wear the hat... perhaps when you've worked out which end to put your head in?

John G Davies
254 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:47:52
Martin,

Not right to celebrate us getting beaten in a semi-final, not right at all. To toast it with a bottle of bubbly makes it even worse. You should hang your head in shame.

Martin Mason
255 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:48:56
Darren, please stop waffling. Do you want this unconditional love of the club or do you want to put it down at every opportunity?
James Marshall
256 Posted 27/09/2017 at 19:49:25
Mason vs Hind – ding ding, round three!

Gents, you both make good points, but nobody is looking good at this point. I gave up having run-ins with folk on here, it's never worth it and nobody ever backs down – you're gonna do yourselves a mischief at this rate!

Darren Hind
257 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:00:40
Martin,

I have unconditional love for this club.

I have contempt for the chairman.

My feelings for the manager are well documented... but the day will never dawn when I want him to lose.

Darren Hind
258 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:02:37
Unless of course he has left and is managing some other club.
Tony Abrahams
259 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:28:23
Just read post #25, Steve, and whilst I agree with you to a certain extent, I do think there is a much bigger picture.

I honestly thought Everton's crowd was brilliant on Saturday, simply because they stayed with the team, even though the football was mostly being played in slow motion, which was exasperating to watch.

They stayed with the team but the volume was only raised once we started getting the ball forward a lot quicker and even started to play with just a little bit more purpose.

The last 3 seasons have been dreadful at Goodison: pedestrian football, and a team that lacks any real identity, so what do you really want the crowd to shout about?

Colin Glassar
260 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:34:00
Whoever authorised the sale of Lukaku for £75m needs shooting! Two more goals tonight.
Dermot Byrne
261 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:36:38
I have conditional love. I love the club when we win and hate it when we lose. I am so shallow!
Kevin Tully
262 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:37:30
Easy now, Col. Don't forget, they gave us a drunken, washed up Rooney in return. Great business, they must be very proud of that one in the boardroom.
Tony Abrahams
263 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:38:15
He would have had a hat-trick if he could take penalties, Colin.
Chris Leyland
264 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:40:54
Colin – it wasn't just £75m, we get a quid for every goal he scores on top.
David Barks
265 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:41:55
Yeah, that Lukaku really struggling at that higher level, isn't he? I still can not believe we sold him for that amount and now have our hopes pinned on Niasse.

If you ever wanted evidence that the "project" is currently going backward look no further than that. We had him under contract, 2 more years, and we sold him at the start of the window without the smallest bit of fight. Unbelievable.

Martin Mason
266 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:47:27
Darren, the day will never dawn when I want Everton to lose.
Mike Allison
267 Posted 27/09/2017 at 20:53:16
There were geniuses on ToffeeWeb telling us consistently that Lukaku was basically shit and we were doing well to get that much for him.
James Marshall
268 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:10:07
Lukaku has been a goal machine his entire life. Most of us knew we'd miss him, and boy do we miss him.
Will Mabon
269 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:26:21
Colin, you won't have to suffer too much more. Remember, he'll be found out at a bigger club... and Mourinho will bench him by Christmas.
James Hughes
270 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:42:04
Dermot, I can relate to your shallowness. I try to live in a state of denial when we lose a game. It's not important, look at the sunset, oh there's a new drama on TV tonight (or TW for that matter)

Darren & Martin, for the love of god, please stop!

Michael Lynch
271 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:42:25
Talking of want-away-got-away strikers, the miserable kipper on Diego Costa tonight after Chelsea scored a winner with the last kick of the game at Atletico
Tony Abrahams
272 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:44:39
When everything in the garden is rosy, then Romelu will be just fine, but many a true word is said in jest, Will; it's still early days.
Colin Glassar
273 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:46:06
I remember one guy on here who claimed 99.9% of Lukaku's goals for us were either scuffed or just jammy. He was one of the "get this lazy lump of dogshite out of my team" gang. Are they still around?
John G Davies
274 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:47:00
What, the scuffs?
Will Mabon
275 Posted 27/09/2017 at 21:49:47
I know, Tony, but I'm willing to chance my arm on this one!
Stan Schofield
276 Posted 27/09/2017 at 22:15:51
James @248: In my original comment, I was focusing only on the reference to Niasse, so apologies for not emphasising that, since I'm not really commenting on the other stuff.

So, regarding Niasse, if I just take me as an example, I certainly didn't call him shite, didn't call him good either, because there was really too little to go on. But I was surprised by Koeman's comments, and said so, even said I thought they were unprofessional, that he didn't really need to say what he said. I do recall others saying similar, but even if my recollection is not great, this all underlines the fact that not everyone said that Niasse was shite.

There's an inconsistency in what folks say if and only if it's the same folks saying one thing and then saying the opposite. Certainly bet everyone falls in this category.

So I have to protest at the idea that everyone said Niasse was shite, at least because I didn't say that, because I didn't know enough to say either way.

I started expressing concerns about Koeman almost a year ago, and those concerns have become greater as the evidence has accumulated since then. The latest situation with Niasse serves only to underline those concerns, in terms of Koeman's judgement and public utterings.

Don Alexander
277 Posted 28/09/2017 at 00:30:22
Seeing that "the goal machine" Lukaku is once again attracting the attention of some of us pining for him after leaving us. I think it needs to born in mind that Lineker was just such a goal-machine, but bugger all else, when we signed him. He continued in that fashion. In the seasons either side of his one with us we won the league because in my opinion the team was demonstrably stronger. With him we won sod all.

Lukaku in Man Utd's team has only one prime job, to score. They have an array of players to do the work he ignores. We didn't, and perhaps don't yet have, enough such players.

His performance tonight pissed me off because for once, unlike for us at any time I can remember, he actually competed for a header to score. That tells me he was the self-absorbed user I always thought him to be last season, to the cost of our team's results, despite his goals.

David Barks
278 Posted 28/09/2017 at 02:34:04
Don,

So you completely missed all those headed goals Lukaku scored for us? And you missed those through-balls and assists he provided? And you missed those goals he single-handedly created.

Please, give me a break. Don't try to recreate history now that you see what he does in a team set up to attack with quality in every position. He was a beast when he was with us and at his age he will only get better from here.

He competed for headers to score goals when with us. You just might be forgetting the fact that we spent most of the match passing it around the back four instead of getting forward and whipping in crosses.

You might also be forgetting the fact that he now has other players getting up in support instead of being isolated up top. Something that many of us tried to point out to no end.

So no, don't try to create a scenario where Lukaku couldn't give a shit when he was with us. In fact, he was very eager to get on the end of goals wherever and whenever the opportunity presented itself in order to impress clubs like Man Utd and managers like Mourinho.

Isn't it funny how those that seemed to be so prominent in saying how he must be shite because Mourinho sold him are now so silent as they watch Mourinho start him every match and watch him score in just about every match, home and away, domestic and in the Champions League.

We had a fucking star and we never built around him, as me and many others begged for us to do. He should have been the centerpiece of the Everton "project". Instead, we have fucking Niasse.

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