Late turnaround secures precious win

Sunderland defended well, but I don't think we gave them too many difficult moments. Two pieces of brilliance by Fellaini, two dummies of the ball by O'Shea, and 2-1.

Not a good performance, but this was a result that the Everton of as recent as last season would've struggled to pull out.

Hanging in there but got to tighten up at the back. Osman was ball watching for their goal. Individual mistakes are getting us every time.

Would like to see Oviedo given a run for a couple of games in place of Naismith if KM is injured. Pienaar to go wide right - don't think he is linking up with Baines as well and trying him in a different position might do no harm.

I think we were a bit lucky, for all the possession we had we weren't penetrating at all. They looked much better on the break and I was cringing every time they got forward.

Two great moments from the big fella and we got a win.... but not looking good when attacked, defensive stability seems to have become defensive frailty.

We haven't played any of the top teams yet (apart from United) and we can't keep giving a goal start to everyone.. (although Sunderland were so crap they decided to wait until the stroke of half-time before accepting the offer!)...

Yeah, I know, we're never satisfied, but isn't that what Nil Satis Nisi Optimum is about?

On the game, after four draws, any win is a good win, and a miracle we're still in 4th. Keeping Fulham to two last week is now taking on some meaning as they went to the Emirates and scored three. Could be one of those situations where we can definitely say that we are better than Arsenal - I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

Not great today but not dependent on set -pieces anymore, 2 decent goals and a win is a vast improvement on days of yore.

Pienaar needs to visit Spurs for the magic potion or whatever it is they give him, Naismith hasn't got it and whatever Neville had has gone. If Moyes grasps the nettle it's onwards and upwards.

Comment at lunchtime when Beeb had the programme from Goodison Park, that Timmy Cahill leaving has helped Fellaini — and the stats seem to bear that out.

All part of the unending media conspiracy to do us down! Mind you, we came a little too close to doing that ourselves with that game!

We have to keep 4th spot to improve our chances of keeping our top players and to stand a greater chance of adding further much needed quality to the squad in January. The game today was a must win for me and the coming Arsenal fixture is a real 6 pointer, imperative we do not lose to the Gunners as we do all too often.

Always a sting in the tail with Everton though, gutted about Mirallas, such an important player for us, just have to hope his hamstring strain is a minor one and he can return against Arsenal.

Happy days, but only just!

Discuss!

What a thought.

oh ye of little faith. :)

But as Andy says, part of this might be the cover peanuts can provide for Coleman. I just think the bigger reason is that it mixes our tactics so we're not one-dimensional. I'd also like to see more of Oviedo - but if you think peanuts shouldn't be on the right then where do you put Oviedo - he's very much a left-sided player.

Note to Mr Moyes - If you continue to persist with Neville in CM when Gibson is fit and after seeing how much more influential was today I will cry...cry like a baby.

Note to Mr Moyes - If you continue to persist with Neville in CM when Gibson is fit and after seeing how much more influential was today I will cry...cry like a baby.

Gibbo > Neville

Coleman > Hibbert> Neville

Oviedo > Naismith

Thank you and good night, Neville!

Pienaar was very poor today. His passing was not what we've come to expect. Still, he's a terrific player and we all know it.

Highlights of the game for me, aside from the goals of course. 1. Coleman or Mirrales literally putting a defender on their arse on the edge of their box in the first half. 2. Jelavić's phenomenal tackle (not a euphemism)

If anything, the real criticism of Everton is that we may be believing our current hype and playing a little too much passing football when a more direct option may be better. We need to mix this up a little more.

We always had too much for Sunderland and there wasn't too much wrong with this performance except that Howard needs to command his area much more. I think there is a lack of confidence at the back which stems from a goalkeeper rooted to his line more often than not.

We have lost 1 game in 20 and Phil Neville has played in them all. If you can't see why DM plays him I would suggest you know fuck all about what it takes to create a balanced team. Sure when Gibbo is fit I suspect he will be back in CM but sure as eggs are eggs Pip will be at right back. The reason being he is a seasoned quality footballer who will always give his all. Surely six England managers, SAF and DM can't be wrong.

I see you also are on the Naismith thing, who seems to be this month's boo boy. FFS give the lad a chance, personally I like his attitude and also the equaliser in the Derby.

Ball watching for the goal aside I thought Ossie had a good game in the centre.

Fair play to Moyes for figuring out a way to get Fellaini away from his marker(s). Start deep and go forward when the opportunity arises.

The criticism of Pienaar is surely due to his usual standards? He was good again today by any other measure. Worked his socks off and was at the centre of most of our good play. Not his best game but still good.

Team had an off day against the sort of side the makes teams have off days. The challenge is to win by attractive football OR by grinding it out. We ground it out. A real test overcome.

Hopefully KM is ok. Looked like a hammy which is a real concern.

Do you enjoy draws or do you like wins (as that's what we've been doing a lot of since he moved to Midfield)??? I'm not sure. Maybe you still have an inferiority complex in regards to where we should be in the table and what kind of results we should be getting. Top 4 is there for the taking but you don't ask anything of the manager to help get us there. Just the tried and true that we've been dealing with.. 5 minutes after replacing Neville we get 2 goals. The second half was dire and I could see the season unravelling if we hadn't pulled that out. That loss would have been catastrophic for us.

Phil Neville is a liability and if you can't see that then you have a sad understanding of the game and who we should play to be a winner.

When I see Phil, I don't see leader anymore. Maybe you do?? I see tired legs, late tackles that result in cards, old school style of play that doesn't mesh with our new guys and missed assignments that turn to goals (ask QPR). The 19 out of 20 aren't because of him you, lout, they're in spite of him. You can mask an old, tired player at RB but not CM, my friend. Not in the top half of the EPL. Have some standards my friend. We are constantly exposed and if you think that a player of his caliber should be a lock in our side, maybe your more up Moyes' ass than Nev is.

Regarding right back, I'd continue with Coleman. He's on the up. Sure he's a little limited but I've seen more from him going forwards than Pip in his six years combined. We also don't need Pip's captainship anymore as we can pass that band along right to Jags and be on with it. Youth and talent win out in the league. Don't forget that, Graham.

As for Naismith, he's a try-er and it is not his fault that he is not a world beater as it seems he'd like to be. He does not deserve to be bashed and he shouldn't be. He was brought in for free and clearly works his tail off. As for results, matches count, not practices, and from what I've seen in MATCHES, Oviedo looks sharper. That's just my opinion.

'Top 4 is there for the taking but you don't ask anything of the manager to help get us there. Just the tried and true that we've been dealing with..'

what are you on about? Since last January, i.e almost a year, we've been playing with Champions League Form... Moyes has yet again resuscitated a tiny squad with minimal funds... but if we get fourth this season, it will be in spite of him?!

And how simplistic is it to point to us scoring two goals within five mins of Neville going off? Neville also played (Very well) against United at home... Very few of us actually want Neville in Midfield, but who else are we suppose to play there exactly? the only viable option (No one mention Hitzlsperger, or prepare for a rant regarding match fitness) would be to drop Fellaini back. Now we could do that... but then Fellaini has scored 6 goals this season from a predominately attacking position, whereas he is far less consistent when played further back. Today it worked, but usually we would lose something offensively. We are also crap enough defensively as it is at the moment, and replacing a disciplined defensive minded midfielder with one who likes to go forward, will not help the situation, especially when we are playing with Osman in central midfield and two attacking full backs and wide men.

You lot should lighten up. We won today, didn't we? We are top four are we not? Above Arsenal, Liverpool, and Spurs, who all consistently outspent? The only clubs above us are City, Chelsea and United, who spend on average around £35 million more than us a season. We are playing, generally, great football. If we can get to the January window in the top four, and add a good central midfielder, get the Hammer match ready and another attacking creative player, then I think we will be in with a massive shot of Champ League football.

Losing Mirallas is a big blow. He's incredibly creative, has pace and simply twists and turns his way into dangerous positions...if he passed a bit more often it would be brilliant. Hoping its not a six to eight week injury and he can be back for the Arse.

The second half was different though. Sunderland still dangerous on the break and right at the end they could easily have levelled but....this is the new improved Everton and no mistake. Those two quick goals were class. Felli was superb and Yelavic took that winner like one of the best finishers around and I suspect he's back, despite an overall performance that was actually quite poor. But his work rate was impressive and Moyes will have been delighted with the effort.

People are right to say that this was a game we might easily have lost. Yet we battered Fulham and gave away two points right at the end. We just need to mix it up a little more, add some direct play into our options when needed, and pick up three points against the likes of Reading next week to open the gap between us and those chasing fourth place. I'm starting to think its entirely possible we actually have a cracking first fourteen or so......if only we could add a couple in early January and get Dazza back next to Osman.....

Are you sure you're not a Manure supporter.

That's exactly how they think.

We're Everton, we're the School of Science, get over it or get out.

There is so much horseshit in your post it is hard to know where to start. I see you finish with the obligatory "that's just my opinion" as though I would seek to deny it of you. Of course I don't, you are perfectly entitled to join the herd and seek to blame Pip any time we don't stick three past any opposition. He his doing a good job filling in in the centre of midfield in the absence of any credible alternative. If Gibson was fit, he would be playing right back.

Our record this year with him playing CM is W5 D5 L1, 4th in the table and up to yesterday more attempted shots than any team in the top 5 European leagues. You seem to suggest we have been doing that with 10 men, we must be really special!

You say I have a 'sad understanding of the game' which I therefore conclude you think I share with David Moyes who carries on picking him? I see you don't actually offer any thoughts on who should actually replace him, but to me there are only four alternatives Heitinga, Barkley, Hitz or Fellaini. I'm still picking Pip.

You finish with your opinion on Oviedo, who may turn out to be a decent player. You base your opinion on 3 sub appearances with a grand total of 18 minutes game time. Forgive me for the time being I will accept DM's opinion over your own.

Crikey! Some people are never happy are they?

Absolutely correct.

Neville is not a centre mid, he is the first to admit that. However he is currently the best option we have. Fellaini is the form man in the league right now. The last thing I want to see is him dropped back to a position where he has been far less effective. Hitzlsperger is off the pace, that much is obvious. Barkley is not a holding midfielder and is out on loan playing 90 minutes as the heartbeat of an improving championship team.

What's all this Naismith bashing? He's a good player. A very neat and tidy footballer. It's hard to come on as a sub and get straight into games but I think he's done a good job over the last few weeks. He'll play more while Miralles is sidelined and I'm sure he'll play well.

Oviedo has played a few minutes. How you can judge him either way is beyond me.

We're 4th FFS and playing great football. We can play teams off the park and we can grind out results. What more do people want?!

Raheem - You're an idiot and you quite clearly don't know what you're talking about. You want us to go back to playing worse football which in turn led to worse results? And you're an Everton fan, you say. Get back on Liverpool's left wing you little cheating shite.

On a side note. Really impressed with Coleman's crossing. It's improved massively recently. We haven't had ammunition from the right for some time. Hopefully it'll create some chances.

It's not fluke we're getting better results, creativity with attention to defence is, and always will be, the way to go.

We haven't cracked it yet but Moyes should be encouraged in what's going on so far.

Give it a rest, just be happy with 3 points that we probably deserved last week instead of this week but have anyway. Pienaar can't be sensational every single game, form doesn't work like that. Equally Jelavic will drop in confidence throughout the season, but his finish at the end has won us 3 points so lets get behind the lad. Neville and Osman will make mistakes, but why ignore Osman's pinpoint balls to Fellaini for the goals and both their contributions over the season so far. We can't be at 100% every week, Sunderland were desparate for a win, we played badly but still won, that's a sign of a good team.

Damn you! In the shell of a nut.

Jagielka – At last, one of our centre halves seems to be showing some consistent form.

Mirallas – Looks a class act, I hope his injury isn't bad, the most exciting player we've had in years.

Neville – Usual nothing performance, it astounds me how some people defend him and actually believe he offers something to the team.

Pienaar – Really poor game by his standards and hasn't played well for a few games now.

Jelavic – Great finish, hopefully gives him back his confidence.

Naismith – Yes, he's had injuries blah blah blah but he really needs to pull his finger out, I've seen nothing of note from him all season. Anyone else notice when he popped up on the left it seemed like Baines was ignoring him and would choose to pass to someone else instead?

Vellios – Great to see him involved again, I pray to God its the end of Anichebe and this lad gets the chance he deserves.

'Naismith tries hard' – I'll take it all back then. I wasn't aware that doing something any man on the street could do is enough to make you immune from criticism. It was always my view that if someone is paid 5 figure sums every week it is reasonable to expect a bit more quality than 'trying hard'.

As for the Neville bashers, he always shows for the ball, and generally picks a pass that retains our possession and tempo. Okay, they may not be glory balls but that isn't how football works. It is not Fifa!

And lastly, citing the fact we scored 2 once he went off. The goals came about because Fellaini dropped deeper off his two man-markers who had him in their pocket all game.

A big concern for me at the minute is our defence. We are conceding poor goals from balls played into our box – I wonder if Coleman is a bit suspect in this area? Hibbert always seem to be in the right position to make a clearance, it will be interesting to see how we fare defensively when he returns.

Mirallas will be a huge miss if he is out for any length of time, as Pienaar seems to be a little out of sorts at the moment.

A good night out after that though, now hoping for the Shite to get pasted by Chelsea later today, and it will have been a happy footballing weekend. Looking forward to Rodgers talking bollocks after another terrific defeat!

Performance wise yesterday, I felt we held the ball well, just lacked the cutting edge till late in the second half.

Plus Mirallas looks the real deal. Great signing.

As an aside, I haven't seen Oveido in action at all. I know he has only gotten a couple of minutes here and there but what do people make of what they have seen?

I find it hard to believe that anyone with eyes in their head can defend Neville. To suggest there's no alternative is nonsense..

Every time he has been on he has worked hard and gives a different edge to our attacking play. He also has the defensive play, pace and he is not known by the opposition, which gives us an edge again.

I only remember Oviedo playing against Leeds in the LB position and then against Liverpool for a brief cameo on left wing. Against Leeds he looked good but a little lax positionally, perhaps like Baines did when he first came into the team, lots of pace and attacking instinct. His passing wasn't quite upto scratch but whose was at Leeds? All-in-all, a good initial start.

In the short time he was on against Liverpool he showed good pace relative to Gueye against a poor RB who was flagging and got in some decent balls on his left foot.

That's it, he's definitely worth another look but I just don't understand where all this hype is coming from. To add to this, he's a defender so automatically breaks the TW rule about playing too many defenders at once. If results went sour with him in the team, that would be the first criticism against David 'square pegs in round holes' Moyes.

Have people forgotten that Naismith bagged our equaliser in the derby, or when honest hardworking players score against Liverpool does it not afford you the same sort of respect as if his name had been Naiviedo or Nairallas? To suggest that Oviedo has shown more than him is stretching it too far, if people just don't rate Naismith then fine but don't imagine what Oviedo will be like, no-one knows.

I still remember people calling for Pienaar not to be bought back because he was blocking Gueye's path to the team. Now that we've all seen Gueye, it's apparent how farcical that notion was. The unknown always seems more glamorous than what we can already quantify.

Alex, Naismith will never replace Osman because they don't even play the same position: one is a deep lying midfielder who monopolises possession and the other is a striker/wing forward. It wouldn't surprise me in a Moyes team if they did end up swapping positions one day but I don't think it would be to the benefit of either.

We don't have another player like Mirallas so an all rounder was needed.

Although that's not really a comment on Oviedo. None of us have seen enough to know quite how he fits in this discussion.

In particular: "There is a creeping sense of vulnerability about this Everton team that Moyes will want to disperse ­before it becomes an ­issue. Everton cannot rely on this sort of late flurry on too many occasions."

And: ­"because a Champions League place is dangling in front of this club like a fat apple ready to be plucked."

Our passing was weirdly poor on Saturday although we did okay in the end.

COYB

Of course we all know about his sweet left foot. He is a great intermediate solution to fill the Neville gap for a couple of years as backup / rotation center midfield player.

What happened to him during his time at West Ham and Wolfsburg?

You acknowledge that Oviedo was 'good' against Leeds, but then tell us that we should not speculate on whether he'd be any good or not...

Can't quite get my head around that one.

ps: If Naismith had an exotic name he'd still be decidedly average.

And you can take Moyes opinion over mine of course as his is the only one that matters. However, even last season Moyes said "he wouldn't have paid to watch us" so even his tactics can be called into question

The positive I'm taking is that we have the prospect of having two players in double figures by the new year. When was the last time we had two players in double figures by the end of the season?

Fine if you want a pop at Neville, a lot have, definitely two sides to that argument, but claiming we don't have innovation in midfield? Along with Chelsea, we have been the benchmark for exciting midfield play this year. Osman, Pienaar, Mirallas – how are these players not inventive? We've passed most teams off the park.

Watch our goals from yesterday and you'll find they all came from the middle, our much vaunted flanks weren't involved and it showed the variety of our attacking play. Osman to Fellaini to Jelavic, straight up the middle against a very defensive team.

You can take any result in isolation that you want, yes we tied with the bottom team in the league (away, with ten men), any one can beat anyone, Wigan went and beat Tottenham at home, doesn't mean they're better than Tottenham though, sometimes it just doesn't go for you regardless of the perceived quality of the opposition. Anyone in this league can beat anyone.

If anything our new found variety in our attacking play bodes well for this sort of challenge as we have shown we can out-football the ball playing teams like Fulham, and find a way against defensive teams like Sunderland. Once again though bash Neville by all means (who is deputising for injured Gibbo), give Hitzlsperger a start instead (or Jags as someone has hilariously suggested), who knows what he'll bring against Reading, or we could just stay with the team that is unbeaten in 8 and fourth in the league. I wonder which option Moyes will be choosing?

A few things....

There is probably not an Everton fan on here who would have Neville in central midfield in an ideal world... however, with Gibson out and Fellaini playing his best football for us in an attacking midfield position, where does that leave us exactly?

Heitinga? – Has looked very poor when played in central midfield.

Jagielka? – He has also looked poor when played in midfield, and he at the moment, looks like the cb who should always be playing.

Fellaini? – The only viable alternative apart from Heitinga...but as stated, he is playing fantastically well in an attacking midfield position. We will lose something from attack if he drops back (And in central midfield, he has looked a less consistent player).

Hitzlsperger? – He is a viable long term alternative... but he simply hasn't had enough football. There is no way we could have expected him to start Premier League matches until this month.

Junior? – Looked poor in Carling Cup and has no experience.

For all the Neville bashing, he offers experience and discipline. We don't want him playing, but what else are we going to do? We lack squad depth, were denied a central midfield signing (dubiously), and with Neville in the team, have lost 1 in 20 matches?

And Christopher... yet another bullshit post. What has Neville not making the bench of a sky four team got to do with our club? This week, City had Garcia sitting on the bench... all £16 million of him. Arsenal had Ramsay and Oxlade on the bench, not to mention the fact that Song, Rosicky and Wilshere were all missing through injury. Chelsea had Romeu on the bench, Lamps injured, and Essien on loan... United, who would walk the league if they had a world class central midfield, had Cleverly, Anderson and Fletcher on the bench.... Clearly we are not operating under the same circumstances.

The point is, we are playing Neville, because we have one of the smallest squads in the league. We are completely outgunned in our attempts at a top four finish, and are competing against teams with far bigger squads and pockets. That we are in the race at all, is to do with Moyes. Moyes wouldn't pay to watch us last season... because we were playing with the carcase of a squad depleted by mass sales, and no incoming players. With a little bit of money, Moyes resuscitated us.

We need another central midfielder, we need Gibson back, but until then, I've yet to see a good alternative to Neville. The only realistic option in my opinion is Heitinga (because I do not agree with moving Fellaini), and Heitinga has looked very poor in central midfield.

I, for one, would much rather have another striker on the pitch.

As for Junior, he was hung out to dry in that match by Moyes who picked a shitty team and shitty formation.

Another Swiss cheese post. What games have you been watching this year? Let me just remind you again, before this weekend Everton had more shots on goal than any other team in the top 5 leagues in Europe. Maybe we should be more inventive!!

If you can equate a draw (1 point) with a loss (no points) I suspect you were not in the top set at maths at school, we have already deduced you were not in the top set at English.

By the way when Phil Neville was 25 he won 7 international caps and played 25 games out of 38 in a Man Utd side that won the Premier League.

Of course I will take DM's opinion over you, you think Ciaran is the voice of reason for fuck sake.

If you can accept mediocrity and not strive for the best, well then players like Neville will be good enough for you. Sorry but I'd prefer to aim a little higher than that. And, sorry but drawing against relegation teams to me is losing two points – two points we're keeping off the table. Not winning one. It's an opportunity lost.

Now while you may go have some Stella's after the game and talk about how great Neville's frosted tips look, I'm disappointed that we haven't – until this match – been taking all the points from some lower teams over this stretch. Its within these matches that we learn just how good we are and just how far Moyes has progressed and ultimately where we end up at the end of the season.

The season is long and we might just end up rueing these wasted opportunities. And unfortunately, Neville is the glaring weak spot in all of this. Other players have their faults and Neville has a strength or two but I can't imagine we're even having this conversation. No top manager would settle for throwing Neville into their starting midfield for over 2 months straight.

The team as a whole is obviously playing very well, there is just a championship level player sitting in our midfield. Now while you idiots say "I know fuck all" – I think you guys have a losers mentality. you think Sir Alex is happy drawing Wigan?? He'll fucking roil his players to no end...

And in terms of ideas, well Ciaran just said it. Another striker, Junior, Hitzlsperger (for a half) – even swap Coleman into that slot and move Nev back to RB ( not sure that one would work).

Or drop Fellaini back, bring Mirallas in and Naismith in to start (or if he's good, Oviedo into the left and Pienaar to the right?)

Who knows what will work but it's worth giving it a try. Especially if the alternative is keeping Neville in there.

And... Moyes wouldn't watch us because we sucked in the beginning of last year. We've been a selling club for 15 years, this is nothing new. Are you suggesting Jim, that Moyes was having a dig at BK with that quote?? NO, he was saying we were shite and he wouldn't pay to watch us. Simple, mate. He wasn't lying.

It's often hard to follow your arguments due to your unique grammatical style. I am assuming English is not your first language.

However if I'm getting this right you come up with three alternatives to Pip.

A job share between a player who had his last contract terminated due to injury problems and a player who has never played a PL game but in his one Cup appearance against Leeds was so badly out of his depth he was subbed at half time.

Seamus Coleman!!!!

Or the one player who could do the job Fellani, which would been removing from his current position the best player in the PL this year.

So yes on that evidence to use your words, you know fuck all.

This has nothing to do with accepting mediocrity it is playing the best hand with the cards you have.

By the way I normally enjoy a glass of Cloudy Bay after the match.

Which begs the question: why does DM have Ross Barkley out on loan?

"We've been a selling club for 15 years, this is nothing new. "
Correction. We've been a selling club since we sold Alan Ball because it was "Good business".

Lineker was on the BBC on Saturday saying Everton were the best club side he'd played in and that he was sold, and not because he'd wanted to go.

There is a very simple answer. DM does not think he is ready.

I probably wouldn't play Neville centre midfield but hes a better rightback at 35 than Coleman will be in his life. Coleman ball watchers is weak in the challenge and reacts when its to late. Going forward he is good apart from his final ball which is shite, imo he will cost us far more than he will create and I would take either Neville or Hibbert for there defensive play every game.

And Barkley could not function as a central midfielder in this league. I really don't think it needs explaining. As an attacking midfielder... perhaps, but not at the moment.

And Christopher, please get it through your head — the Neville issue is nothing to do with mentality, it is to do with options. Some of your alternatives, are just plain idiotic.

Coleman in central midfield...really? you'd sort out our issues, by swapping Neville and Coleman, and placing them in less effective positions...(And for info purposes, I think Neville is too slow now to function as a fullback) Junior clearly isn't ready, and as previously mentioned, another striker, given our personnel, would be suicidal.

And why move Fellaini? Seriously, someone give me a reason. He has scored 6 goals this season, and assisted, in a predominately attacking position. He is having his best season... playing from an attacking position. He gives us an outlet, in an attacking position. But Messrs Ciaran and Chris, you'd have him move back, so we could accommodate... Vellios or Anichebe? Brilliant!!!

Peter, Barkley could be in this squad, obviously. But he is on loan, not because he is not good enough for the squad, but because he could do with a run of first-team football. In the long term, his loan will benefit us and him.

Fellaini appeared to still get forward when necessary... and guess what, he scored two goals..

But hey ho, we'll just ignore that little fact.

You're point about Barkley is simply navel gazing, like the rest of your post.

He's been playing box to box for Sheffield... I see no logic why he couldn't do a similar job for us.

Too many people come onto this site with the simple aim of defending and deferring to Moyes decisions. It's pathetically lazy.

The 'fact' you claim we are ignoring is not true. If you read it again I'm sure you will work it out.

The fact you should not ignore is that in three seasons playing as a deeper lying midfield role he scored the grand total of six goals. In a more advanced role this season he has equalled that tally in 11 games and has been arguably the PL's best player. To move him out of that role would be madness.

We've seen Fellaini in a central midfield role throughout his Everton career, and in an attacking midfield role, and he has proved more consistent when played further up the field. Now a central midfield pairing of Fellaini and Osman, in which Fellaini would be given license to go forward, could not function effectively in this league. Please give me some examples, from recent periods, of effective 4-4-2 formations (with attacking wide men) without any defensively minded central midfielders? It is pure idiocy... pub football chat, by someone I assumed from previous posts, knew more about the game.

And Barkley has shown in a Sheffield Wednesday shirt his naivity. In the games I've watched, he has shown some attacking brilliance... but not the defensive capacity to function in the Premier League in a deeper position. We are not playing in the Championship... we are aiming for the top four of the most competitive league in the world. Barkley will in time, I hope, become a fixture of our first 11.

At the moment, he does not have the experience or defensive capacity to function as a central midfielder in our formation, and I do not think he has the ability to warrant playing as an attacking midfielder, given the performances of Fellaini in that position. He is good enough to be in the squad, but I think he will benefit from his time in the Championship, and grow more as a player, than on the bench of a Premier League team.

Fellaini didn't play for 3 seasons as a deep lying midfielder... neither am I advocating playing him there.

Stop making things up.

If it's not 'evidence' that the formation would work, then what is it?

It's certainly more than your conjecture on 'outdated systems'...

25 mins is not evidence; as I said, teams win games with four strikers on the pitch at the end of the match... there are various other circumstances at work. Or do you want me to refer to pointlessly to an instant when we had a 4-4-2 which failed to pay dividends? Dumb logic.

Please give some recent examples of successful 4-4-2 formations with attacking wide players and no defensive central midfielders. And it is not conjecture about outdated systems — there is clearly an evolution of football formations at the moment, as illustrated throughout world football, and notably, on the international stage. 4-4-2s are becoming less and less common, because 5 midfielders has tactical benefits.

And — as stated by other posters and myself — removing Fellaini from a position where he is clearly more effective would be foolish.

However you wish to describe it, he has not played in the role he has been deployed this year. The effect of that switch is plain for all to see.

What won the game for us was less about moving to 4-4-2 and more about O'Shea moving up the pitch after Fellaini, creating the space for Fellaini and Osman to run into to make the two goals.

Football is a simple game but not as simple as some people here make out.

Just because a certain 25 mins of football makes you splutter in desperation doesn't mean it never happened - it did, we scored, we won.

Better that than sticking to some dogma that suits you.

You want evidence, apart from the evidence I've provided... hmmm.

A 4-4-2 can be just as fluid as a 4-5-1... to get hung up on the nomenclature of the system is foolish. Both Jelavic and Vellios (who was the second striker on Saturday if you missed it) are capable of dropping back and providing link up play with those playing midfield.

Our great strength this season has been out fluidity and balance.. To suggest we couldn't play this way without Neville on the pitch is ludicrous.

Graham,

This is not the first season Fellaini has played an attacking midfield role...

Now who is making things up. Tell me when he has played the role he has been deployed this year, ie, playing at the front of the midfield three supporting the striker.

He may have played in a three but the way Moyes has set the team out this year is fundamentally different.

And Barry... what the fuck are you talking about? Have you even read my comments? Or do you struggle with reading? I'm not spluttering with desperation over anything... I'm simply stating the obvious: a 4-4-2, without any defensive cover, with attacking wide men and full backs, will not work for us. Our major problem this season has not been in scoring goals, but in conceding them. We have looked dodgy against teams with counter attacking threats, and changing a working system will only increase our current issues.

I don't want Neville in the team... but I'd much rather see him than an inane system. It's not even as if we are keeping Hernandez or Dzeko out of the team — the strikers coming in will be Anichebe and Vellios.

Just a tip, reduce your stuff by 50% you rant incoherently.

In fact Gary Lineker signed for Everton in the close season of 1985 which was after Heysel which happened on May 29 1985

He left before, during or after Mexico 86 World Cup depending on who is relating the facts.

I don't think anyone is suggesting playing without a holding midfielder. I don't know where that came from – "fluid" does not mean leaving holes in the team, it just means support. If Busquets moves forwards on a play, Xavi will drop back and support to not get caught.

There are 10 outfield players on the pitch and certainly there is interplay and interchange between them. When Mirallas comes left, Pienaar doesn't stay there and overload the left, he moves right and balances the team, obviously. So when Felli goes forward, Osman can sit back and offer protection for that particular move. What's so hard about that?

Some other thoughts:

Barkley makes one cock-up and spends the rest of the season in the reserves – then of course gets shipped out. (Neville makes mistake after mistake and continues to be an automatic starter.)

• Junior gets thrown to the wolves as well for a poor performance where the whole team was a mess. It was his first game and now he's on the Barkley treatment. Oviedo was a mess and looked much better for his substitute performance against the Shite. Neville plays with the first team and still is amiss. Neville can not be improved at this point, he's way too old and is only going one direction and that's down.
• The fact that Hitzlsperger was signed off the street should tell you that in and of itself. If he was more match fit, he'd be starting in place of Neville right now. We scored 2 goals in 25 minutes and kept the entire season on track. Again, please don't underestimate this result.

And lastly, the fact that Neville is a constant target among the supporters should tell you that you two are on an island in this matter.

And just for the sake of it, Fellaini for the 2009 season was setup as a 2nd striker. The problem is Moyes had been using a 4-4-2 so this position is a relative new one and one that's taken him a while to figure out where best to utilize him.

I don't think anyone on here wants Phil Neville in midfield. In an ideal world he wouldn't be. Some people just don't see an alternative.

You say "Fellaini for the 2009 season was setup as a 2nd striker."

Well my memory isn't what it was but I'm sure we had a little fella playing attacking midfield for 33 games that season.

Now what was his name? Er... Tim something or other.

Why are we comparing Barkley to Neville? Does Barkley play holding mid? No, he plays in Osman's spot or perhaps Fellaini's, people can make a case for him taking either of those spots but please he has not got the discipline for holding mid.

And I'm not talking about "Oh Neville gave away a pass, or fouled a player or whatever therefore why are his mistakes better than Barkley's?" — I'm talking about the sort of discipline that requires you to be in the ideal defensive position on the pitch, covering every forward run, tracking every opposition run, for 99% of the game.

Barkley has shown at SW that he does not possess this discipline, he is more suited to a free attacking role (like the majority of young kids are). Look beyond one or two bad passes or mistakes in possession to see the work Neville and Gibson do off the ball. That is why they play holding mid for us, that's why Fellaini, Barkley, Osman or whoever don't because they don't put in this work, their game is suited to other positions.

If people want to advocate playing without a holding midfielder with a defense that's leaking all over the show and two flying wingbacks then be my guest, but I don't think you'd find many football managers who would agree with you. Oh wait I've got it, the perfect TW formation, 2-0-8, why hasn't anyone thought of this before!

My first search found:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/live/match/15555/teams

I could probably find more examples and we could probably find some teams where Felli is playing further back as I agree, that was more Timmy's role.

But what's undeniable is the idea of playing Fellaini as a supporting striker certainly didn't just come to mind this season.

You dare to call Tim Cahill 'a badge kisser' – are you serious? A player that never gave a fucking inch in a blue shirt.

You have to go on Google to back up your half-baked theories!

I went to 34 of the 38 games in 2009-10 (I was in Australia in October). You no doubt were playing Football Manager.

With Gibson hopefully back from injury this weekend, and with Hitzlsperger gaining fitness, and with a loan/signing in January – with any luck we'll never see Neville back in midfield and we can stop dropping points to inferior teams. Even a super fan like yourself should be behind that.

James,

You appear to be missing the point that playing a 4-4-2 (as you and Graham see it) is not a rigid formation..

Have you watched Newcastle over the last couple of seasons? Or Man Utd with Rooney playing the free role?

Anyway, it appears that your vehement defence of Moyes blinkers you from seeing any alternatives (a distinctly differing position than none actually existing)..

You take the biscuit! You say

"Either way, that has no bearing on what this post is about which is the fact that, if we want to be a top four side, we should be playing with top 4 tactics and a top four mentality."

Take a few seconds to check the current league table and tell me what position we are. Seriously you couldn't make it up.

Let's talk about Newcastle and Man U because it's not just they play 4-4-2 and it can be fluid so case closed. Last year anyone who watched Newcastle would know they played 4-3-3 for most of it. Tiote and Cabaye played behind Ben Arfa in a midfield three with Gutierrez on one side and Ba on thee other flank with Cisse uptop by himself. Ask any Necastle fan and they will say that their football has deteriorated this season due to Pardew trying to accomodate Cisse and Ba uptop by moving Ben Arfa to the wing in a 4-4-2. Same players playing but in a different formation, surely they should just flow into their old formation because 4-4-2 is so fluid, but they don't, they stick to what their manager has told them to do.

Man United have played a fluid 4-4-2 for a long time but they have in their possession a player that allows this tactical flexibility. Rooney can go from the midfield to the attack in a second converting any formation from 4-4-1-1- to a 4-4-2 due to his pace and his goal threat from distance. Add this to two lightning fast widemen and midfielders who can control possession well and they can play any formation they want. Note though that the midfield two of Carrick and Scholes barely move. Fellaini for his many talents is not this player, neither is Vellios, both are effective in the position they start in on the field but it doesn't offer much flexibility. For our 4-4-2 to work like Man U's which of the forwards would be able to drop deep and link the attack or create or play the other one in? I wish we had the players to play with a 4-4-2, but I don't think we do, not many teams in the league do.

Where is my vehement defence of Moyes? If anything I'm defending Neville a bit. If I thought Moyes was selecting the wrong team I would criticise him. Being fourth after 11 games I don't think he's selecting the wrong team. If he changed it to 4-4-2, moved Fellaini out of his best position and upset the balance of ateam playing that way for nearly a year successfully just to get Neville our reserve holding mid out of the team then yes I would criticise him. I'll leave Moyes to select the team and formation that has been winning for the past 12 months whilst you play fantasy football with teams that aren't Everton just to get Neville out.

You could just as easily say it..However you'd be wrong.

I certainly don't hate him (another lazy side swipe). And if you look around this site you'll find times when I've credited his performances..

I don't recall you doing anything other than coming on here to defend Moyes's decision making... (ie, picking Neville). You will of course prove me wrong if you've criticised anything he's done!

I happen to be of the opinion that Neville is currently the weak link in our team. The fact that we are generally playing well is frankly irrelevant, unless you come to the rather questionable conclusion that, because we are playing good football, that everyone in the team is playing good football. I don't.

ps: I'm glad you agree with me on the 4-4-2 point, despite the waffle.

I have steered away from talk of formations. One man's 4-5-1 is another's fluid 4-4-2. However, in the four years Fellaini has been at the club, the overwhelming amount of games had Tim Cahill playing as the most advanced of our midfield players. That was the DM default setting.

Of course there were times Fellaini was pushed on when we were chasing games. The departure of Tim has seen a new role for Fellaini becoming the most advanced of our midfield players. It is pretty straight forward for all to see.

Unless you replace Phil Neville with someone who is going to play deeper than Fellaini, you will change his current role or the way the team is being set up. It's not rocket science. Now that is maybe what your are actually arguing... and fair enough, it is a point of view, just not one I agree with.

Don't confuse pointing out your tactical naivety with defending Moyes. Jim was making the point that playing your formation without a holding midfielder was tactically inept considering the players we have at our disposal. Equally you contradicted yourself by advocating a 4-4-2 with Fellaini as one of the midfield two pushing on after claiming that Moyes hung Junior out to dry in the Leeds game with a terrible formation and team which, if I remember correctly, was the only time this season we've played 4-4-2 with Fellaini in the midfield 2.

I've criticised Moyes plenty of times on here, most recently for his handling of Cahill towards the end, his abuse of Osman on the wing, his refusal until recently to break up the impotent Rodwell Fellaini axis, and his selection of Jagielka and Distin together, a partnership that I don't think works. Now that he's found a midfield balance that is getting the best out of Fellaini and Osman and seems to have realised that Heitinga with his younger years is better being favoured than Distin well my criticism for the time being has dried up. Contrary to your belief people do not just come on here to defend Moyes with no other objectives than that, that would probably be by anyone's judgement the definition of a lazy side-swipe. But I'm sure you'll argue differently, no doubt contradicting yourself a few times on the way.

--------------------

It's not an 'unfounded accusation'... it's a fact.

You accused me of 'vehement hatred' of Neville – I've seen you accuse other people of it too. In my case, I'm telling you that your 'accusation' is untrue. Ironic really, given the above.

You can accept it's bona fides or not, it really doesn't matter to me.

As an untruth, it's a lazy sideswipe used to proliferate a poor argument.

Broadly Peter is right.

Let's get back to the point. We've had the easiest schedule of any team in the league thus far and Moyes is still not totally happy with our point total. Neither am I and neither should anyone. I'm happy we're in 4th right now and playing attractive football but we all know how much that means at the end of the season.

If you wanna be part of the Walter Smith brigade, fly that flag, buddy. We have too much talent to waste it with a donkey in the middle. Watch the last 25 minutes of the Sunderland game and tell me what's so hard about it?? Even Hitzlsperger (after a few rusty touches) does more in one turn and pass to Naismith than I have seen from Neville since he's been here

http://efcfeelinblue.com/fellaini-praises-moyes-for-tactical-switch/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=fellaini-praises-moyes-for-tactical-switch

As usual, more of the same guff masquerading as an argument. You said we should have 4th place ambitions, I pointed out we were actually in 4th place. Simple really.

You point out Moyes is not happy with the points total. Why do you think that is? It is because he knows we have dominated games and only ended coming away with a point. By definition we have played well and not got the result we deserved. We are playing our best football in 25 years, yet you like some others think we should be changing that.

By the way one of your earlie suggestions was Junior and Hitzlsperger in midfield . I did notice that the pair of them played together in central midfield in the defeat by Blackburn U21s on Monday!

I'm not sure what the 'Walter Smith' brigade is, so couldn't confirm wether I want to be part of it. However the sheer inanity of that paragraph has already been commented on by John.

Finally Christopher I know you are a bit of a dim bulb but it really would be worth having a few opinions of your own rather than cutting and pasting others. Let me let you into a little secret, just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it is true.

you only have to read them, I have to write them!!!

Leave Barkley where he is and, fingers crossed, he will be the answer next season.