Time for Koeman to follow De Boer out of the door?

Some ToffeeWebbers seem to think Koeman has just arrived. I was horrified after last season that this joker would get to spend the potential increase in funds. I could go into detail but, simply, he hasn't got a clue!

Klopp was available while the wheels of the Martinez wagon were falling off till he signed up at Mordor in December. Now Tuchel is available. Sure, he doesn't have Champions League success but he has experience at both Mainz (punching above their weight) and BVB (up there with the big boys), a mix of pragmatism and high performance which I would consider far superior to that of Ronald Koeman.

To misquote the Spurs thing about selling Elvis - Well we sold ours, we didn't even attempt to 'buy the Beatles', no we had to buy Freddie & The Dreamers, no wait, it was The Barron Knights...a 'comedy' group who did impressions - a bit like our lot who do a very poor impression of a team...At least Faith Brown played with 2 up front...and so on and so forth in a similar vein - Rory Bremner, blah, blah. Pithy Mike Yarwood quip, etc, etc.

Those 70's had a lot to answer for...not unlike Moshiri and his p(r)ick for Manager...on the back of yesterday (all our troubles seemed so far away, now I need a place to hide away) I've upgraded him from The Dutch Moyes / KoeMoyes to The Dutch Mike Walker.

Short Version; Taxi...or these days Uber

We are all focused on how much he has misspent and logically so. However, when you put it into context of the other plus factors he (and his expensive management team) took over, such as the wonderful youth set up, the existing stars he inherited, misdirected and disposed of, the attacking verve of players he is ignoring (Barkley, Mirallas, Lookman, Niasse etc.) the wonderful support with season ticket sell-outs, the positivity generated by the developments of the stadium, the "support" to be provided by Walsh's expertise, etc, etc.

Given the full picture, what he has under-achieved is absolutely criminal. How he is almost single-handedly destroying the club is just incredible.

The difficulty is Moshiri publicly invested so much in Koeman and his project I don't think he can change direction just yet... if at all?

Even now, I have misgivings about ditching Koeman. Tough run of fixtures, new blood needs time, Howard Kendall took us through some pretty dismal times before it all came gloriously together.

But. Taking seven months to replace your leading scorer and drawing a complete blank ?

Koeman's remarks frighten the living daylights out of me. Plain speaking has value given the right place, time, and consistent theme. Ronald Koeman exhibits none of those factors, net result? A squad that very much appears to have adopted a "fucked if I do and fucked if I don't" view of life under Koeman.

"Taking far too long" is a consistent theme. Too long with the ball. Too long to sign vital players. Too long to develop a playing style. Just don't take too long over the inevitable decision only to find we got beaten to our ideal target because someone else was more decisive.

Easier fixtures could provide our new manager with an upbeat start and minimise any dalliance with the "trap door club".

Get it done, get him gone, get us a leader of men and get us three trophies!

COYB!

Hang fire, Derek. Although you now probably don't go a day without hearing the word "Uber" pushed at you from somewhere in the media (Hmm... how does that happen, I wonder), they haven't yet stolen away near enough of the taxi business of the western world, to be as consolidated as they'd have people believe.

I repeat on the four essentials of a football manager he has failed. He recruited ten of the starting squad, he is responsible for training and coaching, he decides the tactics that are adopted, and he motivates them for the game. On all four counts he is failing; if he stays, we will be in the relegation fight.

If he takes any advice from Kenwright then we are never going to get in the trophy winning mix. I can see us hanging on to Koeman too long and going nowhere – just like we did with Moyes.

We have played three of the top six and have been totally outplayed – okay, yesterday, we showed a bit more fight but, once Davies, Gueye and Rooney were subbed, we crumbled and we're ultimately thrashed. We will probably get a couple of wins in the next few weeks and then get totally outplayed by the next top six team we meet.

I have always believed that managers should be given time but the way Koeman sets up the team and alienates players worries me. I'm afraid with Kenwright we will probably still have Koeman at the end of the season.

I wanted Koeman to succeed – he spoke straight after the other clown but I have to agree that he is now becoming the laughing stock as the team? Falter from bad to worse, he may well pull the odd win from the coming home games but we did that last season so where is the improvement?

Pickford and Keane look more shaky but who can blame them in a back setup that is slow and constantly changed; if there is no real way to play other than pass across the back then hoof the ball up front to a non-existing striker to hold the ball up.

I was full of hope with the start of the season, the slow start due to limited pre-match prep but the European games were the warm-up the team would need to get up to speed in the premier league has also shown not to be correct.

Wait till we play the lesser teams we will then come good – problem is, the league shows there are only two teams worse than us so far, so do we look forward to beating them? I think they may fancy playing us now.

Am I downhearted? Yes. Do I see light at the end of the tunnel? Not at this time; just the same regurgitated team in slightly different positions. I, like many, can only hope.

Well he did the same at Valencia according to an article I read. Took the team from the top to near the bottom. Was sacked. Players running around like headless chickens, no idea!

Time to get rid of this disassociated manager.

He has not lost the dressing room; I believe he never really had the dressing room. The team looks lost and Koeman does too. The distance between the manager and players is so evident to see.

Guy next to me at work is a Saints' fan. He was jubilant when Koeman left. He cited that, amongst other things, he just didn't like Koeman. Perhaps more pertinently, Koeman had alienated several players and had left a trail of destruction behind him.

Sound familiar?

Will @7; Anybody from Jim Hardin and Wells Fargo to Steptoe and Son can pick him up for all I care... just soon.

Do they still have those ads in the paper – Rubbish removed?

After these wonderful motivating words from our Manager, how can anyone doubt he is not the man for Everton? He needs to go sooner than later.

I think of things like this. We have played 10 games so far this season, we have won 4, lost 4 and drawn 2. In those games, we have played Spurs at home and Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea away.

We have 4 points so far, which is only one less than last year at this stage and we are still only 4 points and although we are in the bottom 3 we are only 4 points off 6th, which is realistically what we need to be aiming for this season.

Obviously the worry isn't the matches we have lost, but more so the manner in which we have lost them, which I agree has been worrying at times. But again, when you think about it, is our slow start such a surprise to everyone?

I think of things like this. We have lost probably one of the best young centre-forwards in the world and Barkley is no longer playing a part. We are without Funes Mori, Yannick Bolasie, and Seamus Coleman who are all important first team players with lots of Premier League experience.

Of the team we had yesterday, including subs, 7 of them were new to the club. Add to that the fact that Koeman seems to be struggling to find a way of playing without a proper centre forward, then we were always going to struggle against the top teams who have all had a pre-season of relative stability.

To sum up, I think that there have been 3 major mistakes made by Everton this summer, and they are all to do with recruitment.

First, I do think the players we have bought are good players, but they are not great, however, this is the level you shop at when you are not in the Champions League.

1. Our first mistake is of course not buying a centre forward and that can only be down to a lack of planning. It is glaringly obvious that Lukaku was leaving as soon as he turned down his new contract and I would be willing to bet that he knew at that point that Man Utd would be a his destination. This gives us the best part of 8 months to scout and look for a replacement. The fact that only Sandro has been signed to play up front is a crime and we are now paying dearly in games for our lack of options at striker.

2. The signings we have made, although strengthening the squad, have largely been made in the same area. Last season, we had a great centre forward, but nobody who could effectively play as a Number 10, now we have no centre forward and 3 players who could potentially play Number 10. 3 players in that position is too many, especially when all 3 of them (Sigurdsson, Klaassen, Rooney) can't really play anywhere else. The fact that we haven't signed a left full-back, left-centre back and the aforementioned forward is absolutely criminal and someone in charge should be made to answer for that.

3. Finally, we have no pace, at all. This I think is the most damning mistake. Yesterday we had Rooney up front, with Sigurdsson, Davies, Schneiderlin and Gueye in midfield – nobody with any pace. Then we sat back and invited pressure from kick off, seemingly looking to play on the counter. We could have played for a week and we'd have never scored. As a result of a lack of pace, we have no outlet, nobody who can get us down the pitch quickly in the same way that Bolasie or Coleman might have done. Pace is so important in the modern game and we have somehow not valued it when contemplating our signings.

This is why, in my opinion, players like Mirallas, Lookman and even Henen from the U23s must get some game time before January, we need a bit of balance between those who can create and get on the ball and those who will be that outlet, run the channels and pull defenders out of position.

I have no fears for this season; I think we will be perfectly fine in terms of position. Comfortably top half, with a possible push for Europe. However, this is not the new dawn we were promised and changes must be made in playing personnel, even if we have spent 𧵄 million. For the time being, I trust Koeman to pull us out of the rut we are in.

There is no evident system in place – no fluidity, no passing movements, no game plan, no consistency. It's like – "Let's put out 11 players and see how they get on..."

Has he lost the dressing room?

None of this top four, top six nonsense – just be competitive in every game with what we think is our strongest team and see where that takes us. Trim the squad down and stop this daft squad rotation just to give someone a game instead of getting in the side on merit.

Ronald Koeman has made mistakes - but the club is bigger than him and he doesn't control everything.

How are our transfers done and who negotiates them? Perhaps some of those involved in previous backwards moves like signing Ginola, Dazza & Dunc (2nd time) & appointing Martinez based on a 3-0 Wigan win at Goodison are still involved & too influential?

The club chose to sell Rom, unlike Liverpool who chose not to sell Coutinho & Arsenal who kept Sanchez. It should obviously have signed a replacement before selling Rom instead of going all soft on Man Utd's demand for an early deal & Kenwright being too luvvy-duvvy in taking Wayne Rooney back who dumped us 13 years earlier.

The club & many of us fans need to toughen up – we've been too soft for ages and will never seriously compete until we do; trophies don't get won by going back – we need to compete in the now & future.

With £150M, we could have had Sandro, Vlasic, Banega, Vardy, Pickford, Keane, Gibbs and Llorente. With these players and Barkley, Coleman, Funes Mori and Bolasie returning during Christmas, we could have easily finished in top 3.

I don't see us spending anywhere near £50 million in the near future. Koeman has completely destroyed our club and what's worse, is he is freezing out Barkley, Mirallas, Niasse, and Lennon when we do have many attacking options.

I too read the "gross negligence" reference, I wonder what TW's keenest legal minds would make of that.

I could only challenge the Mirallas thing! He's not one of our top talents. And never has been. But the rest is pretty much spot on!

I too have been scratching my head, trying to figure out what system RK is looking to play. And in the transfer market too, it appears that we want to buy players with zero pace. This is a real worry. Everyone saw what Leicester did a couple of years ago - pace. Christ we saw the RS nearly do it with Rat Face. Counter attacking pace.

Away from home, when you want to keep it tight and break on teams, pace is the key. Every player doesn't have to be able to run at 40mph but some pace is a prerequisite in this league.

This is why RK is losing the fans. It's like watching that advert with all the old duffers and the bloke with the iPad. filming it: Walking Football. This is what we've become.

The horrifying thing is that all you need to do is substitute names (Everton for Valencia .), stuff like this:

"He lost Joaquín when he dropped him from the squad for arriving two minutes late to a team-talk, even though he had included Ever Banega, who'd been picked up by the police for drink-driving, prompting the winger to snipe: "Maybe next time I'll get pissed and run a red light instead." And he lost Ivàn Helguera and more when he publicly berated the players for not being good enough, prompting Helguera to bemoan a "lack of respect". "I don't know if I have the squad behind me," shrugged Koeman, "but I reckon four or five of them are on my side.""

Talk about deja vu all over again!

There is clearly no way back for Koeman, and keeping him any longer is simply making the situation worse. If the club doesn't want to sack him, the simplest thing to do is send him on 'gardening leave' with strict instructions that he is not to talk to any other Everton employee (it doesn't matter what he says to the press, rightly, no-one believes anything printed these days, from the Telegraph to the Guardian, it's all Pravda c1937 these days - the above was from 2008).

As usual Everton has given its manager plenty of time. In this case he's had time to at least show a positive improvement in style and play, if not in winning anything.

As stated in the OP, only one really decent performance since he came here. Clearly not good enough and the club must move decisively, get rid and sadly start the process over again.

Having said that I don't have any faith in the powers that be to appoint the right person for the job. Maybe they'll finally get lucky!

Once again us long suffering blues have been let down by all at the club. Everton has to be the most amateur set up in the Premier League. The place needs a major shake up throughout, from the footballing side in particular right through the back office, marketing, publicity, kit, sponsorship departments etc. etc.

It's not his fault he sanctioned the sale of our key player to a rival - oh shit, sorry, not a rival, as Man Utd can realistically win things when we cannot realistically expect to win anything (does this include individual games???).

It's not his fault Barkley wants a new challenge - I too wanted a new challenge in my workplace after my boss decided to unjustly ridicule me too, albeit not to hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people.

It's not his fault he did not demand the signing of a seasoned, prolific striker! He had his handicap to work on after all we all need a work-life balance!

It's not his fault that Kenny is an inexperienced, yet enthusiastic, young pup of a right back, who has already won more trophies than most of the first team combined! He surely cannot be expected to give him a go! He might give goals away and cause us to look very dodgy at the back...hell, he might even get a nose bleed getting into the oppositions half - cannot have that! Health and safety issues galore!

Is it his fault Delboy and then Mirallas got in a huff because other, less effective players, got picked ahead of them? Silly boys! Who do they think they are...???

See, give the guy a chance! There is still much more damage he is yet to manage, I mean coach!

I think it was Alex Ferguson who said you get the full picture after 10 league games. So I am holding fire and giving Koeman a bit of time.

The problem is, without an attacking threat, we are going to struggle. I can't see us scoring enough to make games safe.

The pressure is on now, big time.

Unfortunately he's gonna keep on doing it until one of the weaker teams also gives us a hiding because the alarm bells were ignored by the owners.

Get ready for the worst part of this roller coaster boys and girls.

A colourful conglomeration of views which have been on this site, at the ground and in the pubs for some time, if you care to listen carefully enough.

The weird thing about 'his supporters' is that I don't even think they support him, its just a over thought notion we should be more patient and sensible. Almost a default position.

The most damning is not the obvious detracting traits and fearures of his tenure. For most that's like shooting fish in a barrel. It is that nothing positive can be constructed to support a cogent argument for him staying.

And I've tried, tried to see past the growing pains and the pragmatism and really see the plan, even under previous clown he had a clear vision. Sure he had plenty of deficiencies but he was defended quite vehemently by many because of it.

There is no underlying philosophy or style to cling to.

Go Ronald, just a really bad fit for Everton.

But that's what we have now. This is Koeman's team. It's a new team and I refuse to look at Palace as anything other than impatient idiots. Firing a manager after 4 games is ridiculous.

So far in the Premier League we have 2 points less than we did against the same teams last year. We are 5 games in to a season in which we are trying to bed in around 8 new players. Anyone who thought all these players would immediately click together and play scintillating football is living in dreamland.

Obviously the football has been dreadful. Not nearly good enough. But a new team will take some time. Like many i'm extremely sceptical of what exactly Koeman's plan is and I don't really like how he comes across or conducts himself generally in regards to our club that is clearly a job and nothing more to him. But he bought these players. He must have a plan of sorts. And a new team will always require a bit of patience and time.

He can have 6 weeks from me to show us what that plan is. To keep us in the cups, get us up the league and renew some faith. if we are still 18th and playing terribly by then I'll happily jump on the bandwagon. Not that it will make the slightest bit of difference as I'm fairly sure that Moshiri wouldn't sack him till Xmas however bad things got

Wins are needed immediately. The squad have had a pre-season and over half a dozen games in nigh on two months to work each other out. For blokes with bugger-all to do except perfect the craft of passing, controlling, shooting, tackling and closing down that's long enough, but I give them some licence because of our hideous fixture list for our results to date. Just how we win without a recognised centre-forward is a mystery to me though, as it seems to be to Koeman and all the players.

That's why I doubt Moshiri'll sack him this season unless we remain more or less where we are now. He can't afford to spunk 𧶀mill (as reported) and repeat it for a new manager. He won't even want to pay what's left of a ٤mill p.a. salary if he wields the axe now or at Christmas.

I can't imagine what's going on behind the scenes but I really hope the gross incompetence of leaving us all without any vestige of a goal-scoring threat is identified, personalised, and punished.

It just ain't good enough Farhad, and I'm truly sorry to have to tell you that.

This squad has relegation written all over it. Would any of us think we would walk all over Crystal Palace or secretly do we believe that Palace would be more likely to score and less likely to concede than us?

This is as bad an Everton team (and squad) as I have seen and in 50 years I have seen some bad ones. There used to be fairly laughable plan of putting Mick Lyons up front for the last 10 minutes because the rest of the team were so unlikely to score. We can't even do that with this team.

This team is going down and urgent emergency work is required. In the next few months one team will take on Sam Allydyce and the team that does will stay up. I couldn't care less how controversial this sounds but, without him, as Private Frasier would say, we're doomed!

Point to me were the majority of posters on here want the team to gel immediately, or want scintillating football.

We want clear plan, a tangible marker of improvement from day 1, not the last 4 games. No-one is that naive or expects a magic revolution over night.

Even with a changing cast of players there is no definitive pattern of play, no style, no positive trends or signs players improve under Koeman.

Show me an incremental improvement in the team? Show me a player he has kept that has improved under him? Is it coaching when you exchange a set of players for a other?

It's either hope or gut feel or you natural disposition that has you not reaching for the ejector seat!

Your own post has you begging him to show you an improvement in the next 6 weeks/matches.

Tell me to date what has he done to impress you? You say plenty of decent things on the site, construct an arguement that is not built on hope or gut feel he will turn it around.

If its there, Ill listen and wind my neck in!

But evidence like 2 wins 20 away games, the last 10 games of last season, the 1/10 streak last Autumn are big alarm bells.

The solidity and goals a positive of last year have disappeared.

Its truly wretched, and my addiction to the clubs forces me to watch every week. Help!!!!!

Contracts should protect the club also. Negligent and remiss in duty, failure to meet minimum expectations et al again. How this man can be awarded more time and rewarded for failure is a problem that's percolated through this club for years, decades even!

The Man City result last season was first rate but try to see through the shimmer. They had us on the rack for a lot of that game and we definitely had a four leaf clover up our arise. We took our chances they didn't.

Performance wise I really struggle to remember a satisfying and comfortable game in all his tenure. We need him out. I don't think Unsworth is the long term answer but for the interim I'd be happy to see him at the helm.

We're not only failing to meet our minimum expectations, we've become a subject of utter humiliation. I'm sure many of you are getting the same Whatsapp taunts as I am.

A statistical fact, we're equal bottom on goal difference with Crystal Palace. They've lost all five and scored NONE!
That my fellow blues is ridicule laden ammunition.

This Uri Geller manager must be cast out now.

"Everton lost one of the best strikers around. If you put a 25+ goal striker in any team, they're going to get far better results. If you sign a shedload of players, anything can happen.

"Everton spent their way into a major problem of having no idea what their best team is or how they should play. The only time I've seen signing that many players work is when he came to Saints. We signed players knowing exactly where they'd come in and play. Pelle, Tadic, Bertrand, VVD, Forster, Mane all straight in the team in their preferred positions.

"They don't know how to use Rooney, they've wasted Barkley, no idea if Klaassen is actually any good and people are getting in Sigurdsson's way. The best thing about Everton last year besides Lukaku was the Schneiderlin/Gueye/Davies midfield because of its energy. He's disrupted the entire balance of their team now, and why he's playing Martina I've not got a clue.

"They should have just signed Pickford, Keane and Siggurdsson, sold Barkley and spent big on a forward with some pace."

And:

"Looking at his time at Everton I don't actually think he was as good as we thought. Last year he had Lukaku, with us he had Mane. I know the loss of those players would cause problems for any team, but at Everton he seems reliant on exceptional players and when he no longer has them he's caught wanting like any other average manager."

Never heard of them until Steve Walsh earned his corn. Good on you, Steve. Keep that hidden talent coming through. Worth your ٠m buy-out fee every time.

If these results against top clubs were spread over a whole season, we would see them as hiccups. My issue with Koeman in the Man Utd game was his starting line-up. He started with seven defenders and in effect three midfielders. Where did he think the goals were coming from?

I do not want to become palace and bring the axe down as frequently as they have, but we need to look at the other factors. He has bought players, good players, and played them out of position. Sigurdsson, good player but I have had more kicks than he has and I am 4,000 miles away.

I know we have played top teams, but we cannot except being shite. make them work to beat us.

Football must have changed greatly in the 50 years I have been watching as the old adage was get a defence that works and stick with it. Now, okay, they are not doing themselves justice, but swapping players in and out, changing formations every other game, changing your keeper just introduces instability and doubt.

With my old mentality all I want is to keep a consistent stable defence, play the midfielders in their right positions, one holding midfielder please and a striker or two.

Yes Lukaku has gone. We knew he was going and yes he should have been replaced, but him not being there is not the problem. The problem is we are not getting anywhere near the box. Let other teams worry about us with two strikers and not just sit back and play attack vs defence. Let's just crack on and form a partnership up front. at the moment we are swapping about too much hoping for a team that clicks. guess work.

Incoherent waffling. Frustration. Life as an Evertonian, I suppose.
COYB

Koeman, I said before the season started (pre-season games) that his man management skills are awful, his tactics are baffling and his lack of flair players, no attacking wingers and no striker would infuriate and spell a real problem. A month on and we are in trouble, not because of the table, because the team has no shape, no purpose and no plan.

Koeman is a dead man walking, just like Martinez was, just like Moyes... Koeman doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as those two, and they weren't very good! But at least those two had a plan... Koeman?

He has a choice... drop certain players and change the tactics of the team, pace and flair is required. Sigurdsson and Rooney need outlets for their skill, so does Barkley. (Given recent events puts a whole new slant on him doesn't it? do you think that Ross has been undermined now? See Valencia on different thread.)

Barkley, Mirallas, Rooney, Sigurdsson – the four have no chance of succeeding while we have nothing up front. If we cannot hit with pace on the counter attack then we have nothing... and our fullbacks have no cover without wide men in front of them. Basics... and we are getting slaughtered, we can all see whyHe has no choice but to change, or go. I would rather the latter.

But sacking Koeman is completely absurd, a totally thick, stupid, daft knee-jerk reaction to a poor start. After five games? Crazy.

I was at the Man Utd game and we played bloody well for ¾ of it. So we lost 4-0 (ouch!), but we have to give this proven manager time to develop his squad.

Koeman must improve in the next 6 weeks or so, but to be calling for his head after 5 games (4 of which were particularly difficult) is ridiculous. Support the team.

The club have fucked up the player recruitment this summer. It was obvious we needed 2 strikers, never mind one. Koeman knows this – he made it public that he wanted a striker and a left sided defender, and what did we get? Neither.

The article below is Koeman's response when asked if he would be targeting a striker in January – he said that it's Steve Walsh who takes care of buying players.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ronald-koeman-leave-january-transfer-13634840

So to summarise, Koeman has been screwed over as much as us by our failure to bring in a striker this summer. He is not blameless in this – I can't understand why he was in Portugal on deadline day – but no manager would be able to get this unbalanced squad in the top 4 currently. Calling for his head is way too early. If we are still doing crap in 10 games time, it may be justified, but Everton is not the type of club that fires managers 5 games into the season. Hopefully we never will be.

Yes, he gives effort but, ffs, that's the least I expected; to be out of puff at 60 mins is not acceptable.

Another person who seems to forget that Koeman is not in his first season and seems to forget that we've played more than five matches. Just to refresh your memory since you didn't take the time to read the OP, Koeman was here all of last season and we suffered through some terrible football. There has never been any apparent philosophy to Koeman's tactics or team.

This season, we've suffered through some terrible Europa League games, seemingly only saved by the very poor level of competition and in the later round, a 50-yard fluke goal by Sigurdsson and the referee incorrectly flagging for offside when Pickford would have been red carded for giving away a penalty. We squeaked through, only to be slaughtered by Atalanta in the first group stage match.

All of that happened. Koeman hasn't been here for five matches. But even if he had, the five matches you want to reference we're atrocious. And now he's going public against another manager who says we should be challenging. Leave it to our great motivational manager to tell everyone that we are not as good as the competition is claiming we are. Next, we'll hear about how he needs another 3 transfer windows.

On a sidenote, it seems like the car is breaking. It's starting to make grinding, clanking noises. It's misfiring because it's missing a spark plug.

The problem is, I am not sure it is fixable. I don't think we have the money to put things right. I have lost confidence that the car is not going to work again for long.

Back to the Everton problem, I don't think the miracle we want is going to materialise.

All of his performances have been dour this season and last season too. His handling of players seems appalling. Our dressing room must have so many factions in it due to those he seems to have marginalized. Appreciate your opinion Danny but believe me when I tell you that most travelling fans want this snake oil salesman gone.

As an aside, can anyone list some positive points or adaptations that Koeman has brought to our club?

The only stick I see or hear Rooney get for his performances are from fellow Blues who appear not to have appreciated that this was not going to be the swash-buckling dynamo we sold 13 years ago. Taking the after-match chat at OT on Sunday as an example, there was nothing but praise for his latest performance from opposition supporters.

I think the answer is blatantly that he can not so what sense in keeping him on a moment longer. Get rid. It is what a big club would do; it is what we fans believe we are and what Moshiri also claims to think.

We had a debate on here as early as this stage last season about Koeman being a potential mistake and there would have been no shame getting rid of him as early as that. "Never throw good money after bad" is what my old man used to say. And always keep the receipts. Why double-down on a duff hand? We don't have any aces and Koeman is the joker in the pack.

And Koeman... he will be with us for another month or two at least. I'm sure he will be evaluated on this run of fixtures. If the points start to come in he will then be supported further in the market in January. Hopefully we are by then within some kind of touching distance to the top half of the table.

Also, it would cost a fortune to get rid of him now.

I hope there are, just in case, precautionary measures taking place, because the Watford game just before the International Break seems enough to base an opinion on, one way or the other. How did the Thursday Cup games go? Are we still in the League Cup? How many points do we have?... and more importantly how are we playing overall?

Even go as far as to short list potential replacements and provisionally sound them out for a 6th November start.

It's the tactics that concern me more than anything and not adapting quick enough playing against teams with wingbacks exposing our slow backline.

I think it's criminal that we didn't sign a target man when it become apparent we wouldn't get Giroud. With the players we currently have we need a player up top who the ball will stick to. Calvert-Lewin doesn't seem up to it at this moment in time, and it's this fuck up that might cost Koeman his job, because it was apparent to everyone in pre-season that we looked decent at possession and build up play but with the new slower players we needed a strong target man.

The last four fixtures have been very hard, and apart from Atalanta we would have been lucky to get anything from the other 3 fixtures even had we been playing well.

I'm going to judge Koeman after the next 4 fixtures which on paper are all winnable, starting with Sunderland on Wednesday. I'm 50/50 at the moment on Koeman. I think the hard fixtures and bedding so many new players in is some mitigation but, if Koeman doesn't pull it round in the next 4 games, he has to go.

Why is the compensation an issue to get rid of Koeman? We have money? Not a problem, we were happy to pay the grossly inflated market price to 'buy' him.

Is that your objection or the clubs? Either way its a sign of a small time mentality and more evidence the club have not changed its culture under Moshiri.

I'm afraid its time to realise as a Everton manager to learn to build the plane whilst its in the air. Both ludicrous and short term I know but that is the reality with the global exposure and sums of money involved. Patience hasn't got us a truck load of trophies, has it? 22 years and counting!

Our resources are that of a 7th-placed team, Koeman managed no more than par last year, and has no record in a top 5 league of bridging that gap with HIS coaching skills.

Cold and pragmatic, like Ronald; time to swing that axe.

As for this team. We don't have a top striker. What we do have is Calvert-Lewin, Rooney, Mirallas & Sandro. Between them... well let's face it, it's Koeman's job to find a system that works. A system that gets us actual shots on goal. Was it 7 shots from the first 5 games?

٤ million a year. That's nearly enough to buy the new iPhone.

You can't say "Don't sack him" in such unequivocal terms then slate him for his tactics and then trot out the the excuses every manager wrangles with each season.

C'mon now. Give me a real constructive reason to keep him and not just some stay of execution because he has a set of winnable fixtures.

If you are already that much in doubt, then you have your answer: he should go. Letting him hang on, limping and wounded just takes away games a new guy could win.

I've never been a Koeman fan... but I will always be an Evertonian. He will have more time but how long we don't know. There's only Unsy I'd want to replace him.

I want us to be ruthless and should we detect that things aren't going well, I want Koeman gone. I want to see progress and fight. Missing a #9 is not the cause of our problems in my mind, but rather a lack of tactical flexibility. If we're to challenge for the top, surely we should be prepared to match our opponents in tactical nuance regardless of the players available. Not to mention that I believe we actually have the depth if Koeman was daring enough to try our youths.

Tuchel, a manager I respect highly, is available and the last thing we need is to let another good name slip while we remain overly patient with a manager that might be holding us back. That is what I feel we must do, be patient with Koeman for the next few games, but with a very very short leash.

On the compensation, I'm sure Koeman has a golden parachute clause but I don't believe Moshiri would be dumb enough to lose the club over £15M max.

Results will improve but you can't ignore what happens against the 'big' sides. He can't turn it around from here.

Time to do one Ron Ron to do one Ron.

That, coupled with the fact he is a bit of a dour character makes me question his skill set. He is the wrong fit. Simple as that.

For example, Pardew got one year's salary at Newcastle after signing a monster contract.

If Everton haven't learnt their lesson from Martinez, giving a huge extension and not setting levels of appropriate compensation based on time remaining and league position then they need to wise up.

I'm desperate for us to play well because its so tough even when you win but only did so in moments. So few memories to wax lyrical about under this dour man.

Too right – if we dither when others are available and open to taking over, then, as the season takes shape and teams take decisive action, those candidates could easily disappear.

Interesting that a Southampton fan wants to spend time following Koeman and analysing his work at Everton.

I can only think of one possibility, he's so bloody angry with him that he wants to see him fail and he wants to be able to say "I told you so".

If the yardstick is whether he is able to improve from here, then he has a chance. If the benchmark is a trophy and Champions League, I'm not holding my breath.

Is Koeman blind that he didn't know the world class striker was not in his line up anymore? He thought the world class striker was still playing for us, therefore he didn't put in another striker into his line up?

What I'm trying to say is, Moyes got us 4th place with Marcus Bent. He made use of the resources (however little) that he had and came up with a game plan. Why didn't Koeman do the same, ie, draw up a plan to utilise whatever he had at his disposal?

No Lukaku, and no replacement for him. Then draw up a plan that get other players to score. Is he still sulking that no Lukaku replacement being brought in? It's almost 3 weeks since Transfer Deadline Day.

Before the Atalanta game last week, Koeman was 33/1. The best odds on him to go are now just 3/1, with some bookmakers offering odds as low as 5/2.

After Everton's 4-0 defeat at Manchester United on Sunday, Koeman has commanded 76% of bets across the market.

To emphasise the gulf in betting, Roy Hodgson is the next most backed with 11% of bets.

Koeman is now a close second to Slaven Bilic, who is favourite to next lose his job with best odds of 2/1.

Come on, Blues, let's win this one!!

However...

"Worse, he seems to fall out with any player showing the sort of flair and unpredictability we so desperately crave (Barkley, Deulofeu, Mirallas). We didn't realise how blessed we were with those three and Lukaku, did we? Didn't take Koeman long to drain all that spark and individuality out of them, did it?"

I'm sorry but Deulofeu was a petulant child who didn't 'work' for a number of managers. Mirallas has consistently under achieved for three separate managers and been as open as Lukaku about his desire to leave the club and play for a Champions League team – except that he's not that good.

Finally, Ross! I like Ross and I would love for him to be our captain, talisman, driving force but I just don't see it; I would love to see it, but I just don't. It took him almost a year under the new management team to get fit enough to last a full game, by which point he'd decided that he's too good for us. By the way, for me, Ross played his best football under Koeman.

There are many faults with Mr Koeman but that doesn't absolve everybody else from personal responsibility. I believe that we are not far away from Big Ron doing what I think he's done before and walking away when he realises that it ain't gonna happen.

If Koeman thinks that 7th is all we can hope for, what did we spend 𧶀m for? Our wage bill must be multiples of the wage bill under Martinez. We should should start to cap it by sacking Koeman for lack of ambition and direction.

John (#59) – I totally share your frustrations and I go a long with Denis about the manner of defeats being the biggest worry. That said, I wouldn't call it a stay of execution on the basis that the fixtures were shocking and these winnable fixtures are chance to galvanise the team and get the formation right.

I think Koeman did well last season and we have bought in some good players. I'm not sure I'm understanding the logic of buying Klaassen, Sigurdsson and Rooney. Even in the summer I posted on TW several times that I was concerned on where the pace would come from in this team. I thought Koeman would have the answer to this but there hasn't been any signs of that so far this season.

Tbh, I think we might only be couple of players from the thing coming together. But they're absolutely pivotal due to our new midfielders being top class technically but not having much pace. We desperately need a top class old fashioned number 9 to hold up the ball and a left back with pace because it's sad to say but Leighton Baines no longer has the legs to move forward anymore. I think we already have the answer in Jonjoe Kenny at right-back until Coleman is fully fit.

I can see why some people are calling for Koeman to get the sack, but on the number of players that need to settle, and the shocking fixtures he should have at least the next four games. They're his players so he needs an adequate amount of time to work with them. I seem to remember him having a dodgy spell in his 2nd season at Saints and it all came good and I think they finished 5th or 6th.

Roberto Martinez: He's single handedly destroying our great club – we need a new manager!

Ronald Koeman: He's single handedly destroying our great club – we need a new manager!

Anyone notice a pattern?

Judged on the 3 examples you cite, the pattern is set by our owners.

That is, the bar is set far too low when looking for a manager. We get unproven, average managers who have not succeeded at the top level, hardly succeeded at lower levels to be frank, and we get a continuation of that, ie, we win nothing and just hover in the never regions of the Premier League.

Who would come to us? Koeman is a big name manager, regardless of his track record (which isn't brilliant as we all know).

Top class managers want to go to the big teams, the movie star teams (if you see what I mean) and we're not one of them (at the moment).

Perhaps what we need is to see incremental improvement with Moshiri on board; part of that of course is not playing in a shitty old (much as I love her) stadium that's falling apart.

A huge swathe of football fans across the world have never seen us win anything – since the Premier League became a world product, we've been pretty much a mid table side, never seriously challenging for anything – players today (thinking about their age now) only know Everton as a mid-table side – we as supporters have a very different view, but to players we're just like Stoke or West Brom in many ways.

We simply don't have the pulling power that Evertonians feel we have (in my view).

As Steve said, the pattern is the owners. I think we've signed two very duff managers in succession, not much more pattern than that, unless you have another point?

My question is, could Mark Sampson manage a men's team and get similar results?

I was a fan of Koeman when we brought him in. For what it's worth, I tend to want to give our managers more time than a lot of fans. However, I went off Koeman after the home derby game just before Christmas.

He seemed to have watched a different game to me. We were awful and yet again, we gave the RS too much respect. We then seemed to get worse with every away performance. The debacles against Chelsea, Watford and at Anfield were as bad as anything under Martinez.

I read a stat the other day on Twitter (cia Sky I think) which said that out of Martinez's last 25 away games, he won 9 of them. Koeman has won 5 (I think) over the same number of games.

What concerns me is that we play alehouse football and that isn't what was promised when he was hired. He made it clear that he likes teams to press but to get the ball forward quickly. That's all well and good but just lumping the ball aimlessly forward and then chasing like mad to win it back is not what this club is about. We seem to play a lot of passes back to Pickford for him to lump it forward.

I've said it before but a better footballing side would have won against Man City's 10 men and we'd have had 6 points on the board after two games. A good side would have used the extra man and retained possession. Anyone watching that second half who hadn't seen what happened in the first half would have thought that we had the 10 men.

It seems to me that we have combined the worst features of Moyes's teams in that we give the ball away too cheaply with the worst of Martinez's in that we look to play it backwards too often and are shaky at the back.

Why do we give these teams so much respect? Why can a team like Crystal Palace go to Anfield and win 3 times on the run? Why can Bournemouth and Hull City beat the RS but we can't?

There's an inferiority complex permeating through the club and we need a manager to start demanding a winning mentality. I don't think Koeman is that man.

I actually hadn't posted this 'take' anywhere as I really was concerned that I was perhaps so 'off' in my view, as no-one else had seemed to say anything similar, that perhaps my view was maybe so purely born of a growing frustration that it was therefore too subjective to be considered in any worthwhile, and objective, way.

Maybe not then. Crap innit, aren't we??? Okay, Koeman.. time to take a long walk off Skeggy pier, that is the stubble of it left in my hometown!!!

Saving our arse!,"Niasse (what the fucking hell is he doing here?)."

Saving our arse!,,,1,17:35:53,,82.0.158.174,ok,13017,09/23/2017 17:35:53,wyvern999,reader,, 853356,35539,toffeeweb,23/09/2017,Damian Wilde,wilded@uni.coventry.ac.uk,"Koeman's a prick. Absolutely shocking. Why not start Davies & Kenny? Where's Lockman? Rooney is finished. Baines is finished. Klaassen is shit. We never play with width, does Koeman hate width? Why is Sigurdsson so quiet (poor system?)?

Then he brings Davies on and plays him right mid! Kid is a headless chicken there, but great in the middle. When he is moved to the middle and Kenny comes on, boom! Stealing a living is the dour Dutch bastard.

Now whether you rate Niasse or not, he is a 'centre forward' – our only one. Don't we look better with a 'centre forward'! And tbf, the kid is decent, he's scored three in a week and after being treated disgracefully from that idiot.

Good win, but we have problems with Koeman in charge. I think it's clear to see he plays his signings regardless of form. Wise up!

The perfect irony: a player who Koeman very volubly and publicly dismissed on first sight saves him from coming under the shadow of the axe.

For now...

YES!!,"Time for Koeman to follow De Boer out of the door?"
YES!!,,BlueKfrog,1,18:38:09,,176.186.67.25,ok,18182,09/26/2017 18:38:09,SorenMoyer,reader,, 854267,35329,toffeeweb,26/09/2017,Stephen Dingsdale,s.dingsdale@btinternet.com,One Adult ticket for sale 07845468810,One Adult ticket for sale 07845468810,,,1,18:42:38,,86.148.127.186,ok,7496,09/26/2017 18:42:38,steveefc,reader,, 854268,35551,toffeeweb,26/09/2017,Ray Smith,smithray278@gmail.com,"Until we pay top 4 prices, we won't get top 4 players, end of.

It will take someone like Cavani to be used as bait for others to follow, until then forget it.

I've said it before: we talk the talk but don't walk it.

No comparison with these managers, Moyes and Martinez with Koeman. The first two had no money.