When I seek solace

And before 1895, the cup finals of 1893 and 1894 were played at Fallowfield in Manchester and Goodison Park on Merseyside respectively.

No London club could boast a stadium like Goodison Park, the first purpose-built football stadium opened by the first football superstar, and Old Etonian, Lord Kinnaird. Yet despite the wonders of Goodison, or Villa Park in Birmingham later, the FA was resolute in its view that staging the cup final in London gave the event the national importance it deserved. It argued that supporters from the north and the midlands would much rather enjoy a day trip out in the capital than in another city.

With the start of the Great War, Crystal Palace stadium became a war depot and never hosted the cup final again.

Thank you gents!

Looking up those historic matches, the attendances were incredible. 110,800 for a final at The Crystal Palace Stadium in 1901, 126,000 for the first Wembley FA Cup in 1923.

Will the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock have the same impact as Goodison Park???

As a kid in the Sixties and Seventies, I was interested in what had gone on before. When I was in my twenties, I frequented many a car boot sale/junk shop and bought plenty of books on football in the Fifties.

The great players of the Fifties and early Sixties are long forgotten and never mentioned in our "here today, gone tomorrow" media.

It's as though we handed that trait to our younger variant across the park because it's a long time since such attributes were consistently part of GP.

I hear you when you go on about Arabs and Sheikh's, Barry, but I'd genuinely prefer having the traits of our neighbours, when it came to the football, even though I could never be a Liverpool supporter, because the crying bastards get on my fucking nerves!!!

The Arabs can wait….Isn't that what Chairman Bill said!?

I think you are right about the players of the fifties and sixties not being remembered and being generally forgotten unless of course you saw them and players I watched in the late forties, although some of them past their best, because of the war years.

I couldn't wait to see them because of their names, like: Mathews, Mortenson of Blackpool, Ted Sagar and TG Jones of Everton, Tommy Lawton and Joe Mercer, late of Everton but different clubs then, Raich Carter, Peter Doherty, Jimmy Hagan, Jackie Milburn, Charlie Wayman, Bobby Mitchell, Jimmy Scoular and Len Shackleton of Newcastle.

Frank Swift, Roy Paul and Bobby Johnstone of Man City, Jack Rowley and Johnnie Carey of Man Utd. Dougie Reid and Jack Stamps of the champions Portsmouth, Billy Wright and Bert Williams of champions Wolves, Tom Finney of PNE and many, many more.

They played for their teams and countries, enjoyed playing, getting maybe twice the wages of the man in the street in a relative short career but mostly humble and as down to Earth as the fans who supported them.

Lovely to look back and enjoy those footballing times and days because many fans young and old today are getting fed up with today's game and a lot of the players and their attitudes.

"I took some medicine and an injection and got down on my knees to pray. I refused to take a medical exam, because I knew that if I did it, they wouldn't let me play. I had to sweat blood that day," Richarlison said of the Palace victory. "When we scored the third goal, you can see that I had nothing left to give. I hit the ground with my head and said to the coach in tears: 'I'm done'. It was my last breath, my last sacrifice, my last game as an Evertonian. A moment I will carry with me for the rest of my life, because I loved playing for this club. In the end, we stayed up. Where the club belongs. And I'm very proud of the sacrifice I made that year."

Yes, Jimmy Dickinson captain of that Portsmouth team, Alf Ramsey and the brilliant Danny Blanchflower, there were so many great players, it's easy to forget some of them,

By the way, Eddie, the woman who had the sculpture of Glenn Hoddle stolen by her boyfriend had a lucky escape – she might've married the dickhead!

I have a book, The Illustrated History of Twentieth Century Sport. Written by Chris Nawrat, Steve Hutchings, and Greg Struthers, 1992, and it states that, Bolton Wanderers beat West Ham United 2-0 in the first final held at Wembley on 28 April 1923. The match will be remembered for the size of the crowd and a brave policeman on a white horse.

The owners of the new stadium boasted that it was the finest in the world and could hold 125,000. Their claim proved to be disastrous. More than 200,000 people turned up, possibly even 250,000, and they poured into the ground, spilling on to the pitch.

The kick off was delayed for 45 minutes as the crowd good naturedly sang the national anthem for the arrival of the king, while policemen on horses inched the crowd back to the touchline. The West Ham captain, Jack Tresarden, said 'the best pass he'd had all afternoon was from a spectator'

When the police constable on the 13-year-old white horse got home, he was asked by his girlfriend what sort off day he'd had, "Oh, just ordinary, lass, just ordinary " It became known as the white horse Cup Final, and finals have been all-ticket ever since.

The figure in the Rothmans Book of Football Records has the attendance of 126,047. I'm not sure how they arrived at that figure.

You piqued my interest into the olden days and attendances. I notice that in 1901 the FA Cup Final between Spurs and Sheffield Utd had a crowd of over 100,000. They then had the replay at Burnden Park of all places and it attracted just 20,000.

Based on that and the geography and transport available at the time I should imagine most of the 100,000 were Londonders. I assume Burnden Park was chosen as it was closer to Sheffield to create some balance?

They did at least have the replay on a Saturday as opposed to midweek. can't imagine many would have been able to get their from London or Sheffield on a weeknight by steam train or horse-drawn cart.

You don't go into this half-hearted. All or nothing. That's how you win and succeed.

Michael, Goodison has many firsts. From ToffeeWeb:

First purpose-built football stadium
First four-side stadium with two-tier stands
First stadium with a three-tier stand
First stadium to install dugouts
First stadium to install floodlights
First stadium to install undersoil heating

There are probably others. The Grand Old Lady has a history of firsts. And she will break our hearts in the next 18 months or so.

Michael (again), maybe it's my upbringing, but I've always resented the London monopoly on hosting the cup finals aside from that brief period when Cardiff stood in. Likewise with the national team, which I don't really care for.

If we were going to have a national stadium, I'd rather have seen it built more central in a neutral location as much of a great occasion Wembley is.

I'd rather see those occasions rotated around the country as other nations do. Wasn't the last England match played in Old Trafford?

As a boy, I remember when my dad was home from the sea in the tiny back kitchen of our house in Renfrew Street (at that stage, he was a merchant seaman, but earlier had been involved in the training camp which produced his brother, the great Nel Tarleton, his brother-in-law Ernie Roderick, and Peter Kane) and I used to get my dad talking about football and boxing.

In football, his all-time favourite was the Arsenal inside forward, Alex James, and my whole family were Liverpool supporters. But he also talked of William Ralph Dean and told me just how good he was. Later he took me to meet the great man.

My dad talked also of Dean and Nel, his brother, doing tap-dancing routines for charity and at charity dinners.

Now when I'm in bed thinking about Everton, I go back to those chats with my dad and I go back to my favourite team, Everton in 1962-63. What a team! Two of the smallest strikers the world has seen playing together Labone – who I vaguely knew from school and from playing bowls at The Hermitage where Brian played. Kay, Morrissey, Gabriel, West who could "bowl" the ball 50 yards out to Morrissey. Alex Parker with his immaculate slide tackles, and Brian Harris, quietly efficient in any position.

We are a team with history and even more important with a great tradition. To see where Kenwright et alia have taken us is heart-breaking.

Thank you, John, for reminding us of our history and our tradition. I do feel sorry for any Everton supporter under 50, my own son and grandson included, who've never really experienced the pride one has in a great team and the feeling of elation that a great team gives its supporters.

I grew up on the stories of the sixties. I've said this many a time. Tales of the Holy Trinity and Alex Young, but also Labone and Gabriel to a lesser degree as well as Tony Kay. Joe Royle to an extent.

And then my own experiences.

In 30 years time, it will be me preaching about the wonder that was Kevin Sheedy, who made football look beautifully simple, yet magical.

The warrior that was Peter Reid, who could play a bit too. The graceful Paul Bracewell. Neville Southall, the best goalkeeper in Europe at the time. Trevor Steven dancing down the right wing.

And we love our Psycho Pat. For different reasons. Take no prisoners.

Like Rick # 24, my favourite team was the 62/63 side. Tony Kay and Johnny Morrissey are my two favourite players of all my time. Both very skilful and both as hard as nails.

My dad (God rest his soul) and I, followed that team up and down the country. He was as mad a one eyed Evertonian as you would ever meet but he reckoned the best player he had ever seen was Duncan Edwards of Man Utd.

I have an old framed photograph of the 1906 Team, and Alex “Sandy “ Young, faded but legible, and it does make you wonder, in a different world, but also the so called simple game, is no longer simple, in this modern era, with the use of var etc.

Sean Dyche, has done a remarkable job, last season, and I hope, he gets full support from the club, but hopefully by the start of July, there may be genuine prospect of some new players.

The squad must be strengthened, in time to try and gel, before the new season starts.

Hopefully soon, deliverance, will arrive.

HI Laurie [26] one of my football regrets is that I never had the privilege of seeing Duncan Edwards, I was serving in Cyprus when he died in the Munich disaster.

Hi Paul [29] thank you for your opinion of the thread, I have a framed photo of three sections, in the centre it reads League Champions 1928, on one side Dixie Dean record goal scorer, and on the other it shows a trophy which it describes it as English League Cup. It's certainly not the Championship trophy, and there wasn't a League cup in those days, it's a fine looking trophy and I wonder if it may be the Liverpool Senior Cup.

HI Phil [31] thanks for your kind words, yes we have had goal scoring forwards in the past, I think one of the most prolific, was your namesake Bobby Parker, who scored 89 goals in 176 appearances. I'll look out for you at the food-bank when the season starts.

This, of course, indicates that in, the last quarter of the 19th Century, whether a football club would or should play under rugby or association rules was very much a vexed question. Many, if not the majority, of the larger clubs based in Lancashire and Yorkshire towns decided upon the former. A situation that remains to this day.

It's intriguing why the cities (Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, etc) all went one way and a good number of towns the other.

And Leeds to this day have a history of rugby, although it may be league?

Newcastle also have a history of rugby union.

Which states, reference to the general history of Association Football, the Sheffield club had been going for more than two decades before St Domingo's commenced operations, and the Football Association had been formed in 1863, with its Challenge Cup a focal point for mature ambitions since 1871 indicates that Liverpool was somewhat tardy in recognition of its virtues.

One powerful reason was the strength of the Rugby game, which had been consecrated by a try-out match, in which a ball borrowed from Rugby School itself had been used at Edge Hill in 1857. In this match, in which some Mancunians took part, 50 members of the more socially distinguished families appeared and inspired one observer to comment "I never saw a finer or gentlemanly assemblage."

Rugby football flourished, as it still does, and by 1862, the Liverpool Rugby Union Club was in being, but without respect to the "Humbler classes". Some 30 years later, this body made an attempt to monopolize the title of Liverpool in relation to football, but was rebuffed.

He emigrated to Australia and was imprisoned for killing his brother and ended up in an asylum back in Scotland where he died?

Is that Johnny Carey of Man Utd? – the same who became our manager and started the "taxi for…" meme?

But great spirit and a fine tonic for this week.

Goodison Park wasn't the first ground to have floodlights, Bramall Lane had experimental floodlights in 1878 and, depending on which account you believe, South Liverpool or The Dell at Southampton each claim to have been the first club to use floodlights as we know them now. No doubt other clubs will also try to claim having the first floodlights as well.🤷🏼‍♂️

Some sources, Sheffield United in particular, try to claim Bramall Lane as the oldest football ground but it was a three-sided cricket ground that allowed some games to be played there. Anyone following Everton there in the sixties will remember that one side was open and the club employed ball boys to retrieve the ball when it went out of play. Looked quite bizarre.

It was his brother. There was a really nice article published on here about it:

John Murray – Everton's First Boy Mascot

His eyes would light up as they could see again the breathtaking crowds of over 70,000 at Goodison, where you could lift your feet off the ground and the crush would still carry you along Goodison Road.

He finished life as a docker, worked hard, drank hard, retired one Friday night in 1967. The following day, he had a heart attack in his home in Virgil Street; by the Wednesday, he had both his legs amputated and he spent the rest of his days in a wheelchair, often crying at the injustice of life and his days as a footballer.

He told me tales of his own days speeding down the wings, his eyes once more filled with joy and tears. He would remember the players in the Bootle JOC he played with and against… then silently the tears would flow.

Football is etched into our existence, our life, our memory. Without doubt, I was proud of my granddad, Andy Ruth, he may never have reached the heights of those mentioned, but to me he was the greatest footballer I have ever seen.

On the back holes of Virgil Street at what must have been in his 50s, on a Sunday afternoon, before dinner and after the pubs shut, he would be hauled down from the balcony to play and the granddad was a kid again, football. Brutal, funny, hard men, wonderful players. Everyone's granddad could play.

Thank you, John, the article brought me back to the days of listening to the old radio commentaries on a little valve radio, to James Alexander Gordon reading the results, to my mum coming home from Littlewoods, the pools, the Echo, then the Pink, and my Granddad, who passed when he could take the sadness and injustice of life no more on a cold January day in 1972.

My legacy are his memories, football his life, his joy. It helps make everyone of us. Great article, John, thank you, it reminded me of why we love Everton FC.

Now if I could just get back to sleep again at 4:30 am this morning...

Yes, Johnny Carey was an excellent full-back for Man Utd and Eire.

It was the person you thought of and you are correct in saying that he emigrated to Australia in 1914.

A year later, Young was charged with the wilful murder of his brother, and in June 1916 was found guilty of manslaughter, evidence having been produced from football club officials in England that during his playing career he was subject to fits of temporary insanity.

He was sentenced to 3 years imprisonment but was not released immediately on the completion of his sentence, but kept in custody on the grounds of 'mental weakness'. It was quite some time before he returned to Scotland.

Johnny Carey, was appointed manager of Everton in 1958 when I was serving in Cyprus, my stand out memory of him as a player, was when he played against us for Manchester United in the 5th round FA Cup game in 1953, Everton winning 2-1 in front of 77,920.

Great picture someone has posted up of him, he has a touch of Big Dunc about him. (Wayne Rooney to his left and Luca Digne to his right)

https://twitter.com/GaryMerseybox/status/564388624427675648

Thanks for posting, I enjoyed learning about him.

I must thank you for your kind words, and I would be grateful if someone could explain to me, the definition of, "A Happy Clapper." It sounds a lot better than a "Wanabe Manager".

I will keep it short and dry in case someone else has a different take. Originally it was a Darren Hind phrase used to describe Carlo supporters and intended to insult them (in that kindly TW way mind you) for supporting a negative and defensive style of play desperate for points.

It later became a slanderous term for what is likely viewed as a blind and obedient support for Everton that does not aspire to rise above the mediocrity.

The aforementioned poster co-opted the term from its original usage which was used to disparagingly refer to evangelical Christians who were lively in their church services versus more traditional solemn Catholics, Lutherans, Church of England.

Even when I was a kid, there was a Congregational church in town commonly referred to as the happy clapper church.

My son and youngest brother now has to listen to me ramble about the mid-80s team. They certainly know about Kevin Sheedy.

I'm a self-confessed proud so-called happy clapper if that is the term thrown at Everton supporters by fellow Everton supporters. When it comes to matchday, all I care about is supporting the players on the pitch and wanting the result. Everything else goes away. It's all I've ever known and all I ever will do. Even under Benitez and Allardyce, I just wanted Everton to win.

After matchday, I can turn my attention to my frustration with the club, but for those 90 minutes plus, all that matters is Everton and I rarely look at the dugout.

It came about when the Blue Union protests were about and during a match the cameras focussed on Kenwright and everyone started clapping.

Might even have been the game when the Kenwright Out banner was flown over Goodison.

Evertonians turning on Evertonians.

Played right into Bill's hands.

Divide and Conquer as they say.

We are all Evertonians. We all have our views on the club. But we all want the team to win.

I was desperate for Martinez to succeed as I was with Koeman but then, slowly but surely, the mismanagement of the club and the appointments of Messrs Allardyce, Benitez and Lampard (season two) turned me from a happy clapper into a miserable, cynical, negative old sod.

Big world out there beyond the ToffeeWeb walls. ;-))

Regarding the "Wanabe Managers", I must confess there was a hint of sarcasm, but I agree that we all have views and opinions and are entitled to express them.

Turning the clock back to pre-televison coverage of football, the only people who could air their views were match-going fans, and much of that occurred in the pIayground or in the Pubs.

Now, thanks to the internet, posts of any description can be flashed around the world in seconds. I know that I will be classed by some, as an "Old Fart" but I prefer to discuss things that have happened, rather than attempting to foresee the future.

My take on happy clappers is, when there are obvious problems, they would sooner bury their heads in the sand and pretend there is none.

It does make me sad however to reflect on the change in society not just football when certain people can earn millions while there are still starving and homeless people about.

Still as you say we can treasure the good times which were well before Kenwright was even heard of.

Not saying he was the first to use it but I think Michael K. certainly popularised the use of the term.

I'm pleased that you enjoyed my article, although I attended a get-together at the Harlech Castle, it was impossible to get to all who made their way there.

It finished with at least 8 or 9 drinking and talking on the pavement. Had it been possible, it was my intention to propose a toast to absent friends, and your Uncle Tommy would have been on my mind.

I don't know how long Virgil Street was, but you may know a lad I worked with in 1962, his name was Alan Neal, a really nice chap but unfortunately a 'Redneck'.

Hi Raymond [56],

I'm sure you have hit the nail on the head, when you refer to 'culture of the club', and the 'culture of society', and I think that you would be correct if you linked them together.

Hi Jay [57],

I can only repeat what I wrote to Raymond in post [56], 'it's a cruel world'

It's magnificent, it looks so much bigger than 5 weeks ago.

Hopefully this summer, Everton start building a squad to be worthy of this stadium.

UTFTs!

Not much I say achieves popularity so I suppose I should be grateful but I would associate it more with the time that Blue Union polarised opinions, calling for change after exposing Blue Bill — those who disliked the Blue Union and/or their methods became the Happy Clappers.

Oh, I see Eric @50 mentioned them already. Must stop reading threads backwards!

Thousands of criminals have been sentenced to very long prison sentences in this country because they “exposed themselves” on an encrypted network that they thought was impenetrable.

My own opinion is that I believe that this is immoral, and yet when Bill Kenwright exposed himself, I couldn't understand the people who were more outraged at Mr Kenwright being taped – without any prior knowledge, even though his “sheer incompetence was definitely exposed”, by anyone who wanted to read the extracts.

I suppose it's just that “contradiction” word, once again - because I bet you a lot of people who defended Bill Kenwright would have been right behind the CPS's decision because it has helped take a lot of organized criminals out of the equation.

Bill Kenwright is nothing more than a legalized conman, imo, and if he was to read this, then I'm sure he would afford himself a very wry smile on the side of his face that wasn't exposed.

Although I don't think the Blue Union ever admitted to taping, but the detailed transcript of their meeting was a bit of a giveaway.

It's that strange dichotomy, Tony – Evertonians reacting with their gut to what they feel is unjust or immoral, versus engaging their brains. I think we saw pretty much the same disunity on the recent Ancelotti lawsuit thread.

Well done for sucking me in to your Daily Dastardly Bill diatribe! If Kenwright is culpable of a fraction of the crimes you have racked up against him on these pages, then CPS have definitely missed an easy bang to rights.

[Scroll down in that page – don't use the link in the first post there.]

The alleged full transcript is here that I think you are referring to, some seriously delusional comments.

Being serious I'm not the type of person to cast aspersions, because I believe we all contradict ourselves in some way, but I will be dammed if you can produce a list of things I've said against Bill Kenwright that is simply not true, I would be genuinely surprised, Michael.

Thanks, that's the link I was referring to, I'd read it a few years ago but it is always worth a read now and again, even just to remind yourself what a blot Kenwright has been in Everton's history.

I didn't mean to trigger Tony but he seems to have reacted badly to my little jibe. Not saying any of it is untrue, Tony, I was making a comparison with your convicted criminals and the possibility that CPS had missed a trick by not hauling in the conman years ago.

I know you think you're on a mission, Tony, and need to produce your daily instalment to keep the pot boiling, but I have a low repetition threshold, I'm afraid, and find it's getting just a little tiresome.

I curse Bill Kenwright on a regular basis, but I don't believe that I come out with stuff that isn't true. Maybe you can prove differently Michael, (you did correctly pull me up on something the other week) but I do believe that asking questions is a lot different to casting aspersions, although nothing will convince me that Bill Kenwright isn't a closet red.

Maybe Trevor Birch, could answer that one, although to be fair to Bill, he might just hold a little grudge, after leaving the best job he's ever had🤦‍♂️😂😂😂😂😂😂🤮🤮🤮🤮 a family fortunes ❌❌❌❌

It's good to look back sometimes.