Garnacho wondergoal deflates Everton's defiant wrath

And the Arteta money.

Lonergan and Beto still on international duty or was one of them supposed to give the other a lift to training but lost the address?

A historic day in the making. Let's hope it is momentous for all the right reasons.

I'm with those who feel ‘Corrupt' is not the best tagline for our campaign. I just think it will make supporters from other clubs less keen to get behind us as there is no evidence that the Premier League hierarchy have acted according to some other clubs' wishes.

Greedy, self-serving, divorced from the ‘spirit' of the game – all these things are obvious… but not quite the same as 'corrupt'. Servile, weak, supine, cowardly, tin-pot, hollow are all fairly accurate but I would have gone for ‘money-grubbing'.

It's all in the balance but relegation would be hard to survive. Hopefully the fight back gets off to the best start today. UTFT!!!

What is the main issue is that effort and fight (from players and supporters) won't necessarily get us out of the hole that the Premier League have dropped us in. A world-class finish has upped the pressure on us and that added pressure is being ramped up the longer we go without scoring.

Man Utd aren't a good side but they've seemingly acquired the knack of winning despite that. We have often played better than the results would indicate.

Praying the ‘luck' is with us today. Need to avoid any more yellows and sucker-punch goals first off and then hope we can convert a couple of the chances we should be able to generate.

COYB!

This time I get several minutes of ads so after 5 minutes log out and go back in to again get a black screen… then about 9 seconds before kick-off, the picture and sound come through but there is a buzzing similar to a vacuum cleaner to drown out the crowd. So if anything happened then I don't know about it.

Anyway, on to the game. That was a great goal from the kid but again Young was playing at defending, nowhere near his man and no intention of trying to get near the ball.

We were missing Onana making himself available for the ball and McNeil and Garner were nowhere to be found. After 30 minutes we picked up and could/should have scored three or four, Calvert-Lewin powder-puffin headers and Gana still can't shoot despite having a good game.

Finally, with biased refereeing like this, no wonder United are a team full of divers as they get almost everything they fall over for.

Spectre of Wayne Rooney over their goal, might end up being goal of the season.

First half overall reminded me of the early season "xG" matches; we have to bury some of those chances. COYB

He's done far more than one thing wrong. All he does is shovel the ball up the line. Every time.

Young is the new Holgate. Calamity. Should not be on the Pitch to start, and at least taken off when he got the reckless, unnecessary yellow card.

The manager still can't realize what a hindrance Ashley Young is.

One wonder goal, 1 penalty and yes, 1 poor goal to concede. But those were the only 3 chances that Man Utd had. But, otherwise I thought we played some slick football.

We should have taken at least 2 of three golden chances in the 1st half - Calvert-Lewin, Doucoure and Gueye. 2nd half, Onana pulled off a great save from Gana and Mykolenko was unlucky to hit the crossbar.

If we play like that most of the remaining matches, we will be okay.

Ashley Young is a liability. Doesn't matter how fit he is, how experienced he is, he has crossed the line and lost the edge needed to play in the Premier League.

Yet again a turning point, surely his last start for us?

Deflating for sure, but our biggest battle is going to be the appeal against the points deduction.

We're going to be in the Bottom 3 for a while yet, and we just have to hope that Luton don't get too far away from us. Keep playing like this and we will pick up points, I'm just not sure if we can pick up enough to make up for the ridiculous 10-point disadvantage.

I thought Tarkowski was good, Garner okay… worst 2 wingers in the league and a centre forward who scored 1 out of 5 good chances.

From my seat in the Park End, it was a stonewall penalty.

On to Forest where we need to get something before all the passion fritters away.

Adrenaline is obviously something people don't get. The right level and it's a boost but too much and control disappears.

I saw plenty of good ‘attitude' but too much anxiety, snatching at chances plus stupid attempts to win an unwinnable ball. The first goal made the task one of expending too much effort just to get back to parity.

The 10-point deduction is crippling, the sense of injustice might fuel the fans but isn't exactly what the players need. Difficult fixtures in a row, some injuries probably inevitable and the likelihood of suspensions to come mean the task ahead of the players is immense.

The positives. Branthwaite again. Mykolenko impressing also. Being objective. Young must never start again. Seamus is fit so he and Patterson have to share the duties.

Most importantly. Don't be so horribly wasteful and put the ball in the net. I think that is the aim of the game. It was, as I forecast yesterday, one of those games that somehow you knew was coming. It is going to be very stressful from here on in.

Spirited and gutsy, but calmness in front of goal is a skill, not an attitude.

We don't attack with any flair or pace and there were gaping holes in the defence.

I think the international breaks always affect our rhythm and maybe it will be our away form which will save us.

Not much to add other than VAR decided the slight touch was more convincing than the dive but really what more can Young do to get dropped altogether, he's past it.

Didn't see any signs of any protest other than some red cards that you couldn't pick out what they were representing but then the crowd behind the goal was rarely shown.

I'm sorry but McNeil and Garner showed nothing and I thought Gana did as well if not better than most except for his usual shooting. If some think Onana isn't upto much then perhaps today showed how he is missed but we really do need a clinical striker, Calvert-Lewin just seems to go through the motions and Doucoure seems to have started missing most of his chances.

Back to the appeal then, eh?

Ashley Young is a liability, I'm afraid. He's cost us again because that mistake for the penalty killed the game.

On another day, we equalise and get something. They're a better team than people think and are on a good run. Today is disappointing but, if we play like that against the teams in the bottom half, then we'll be okay.

Not sure where Beto was but Calvert-Lewin needs genuine competition. Harrison needs to offer more end-product and not just work-rate. I thought Tarkowski, Branthwaite and Gueye were good today.

Manchester United were a remarkable price today because form and ability were ignored in the belief that passion would suffice.

We are Everton, fight on, stick together, up and at them, keep the faith, three teams worse, etc, etc. Meaningless platitudes, sadly.

We need to win the appeal and get some points back. We need our lawyers to show some backbone because our players are frightened and fragile.

Surely Onana and Gana in midfield. Garner slows everything down and his first impulse is always to go backward.

The home form is a real worry and, if Dyche doesn't sort it quickly, then we are going down. I think the -10 points is too much of a hurdle to overcome.

There's no quality on or off the pitch. Dyche gives slow learners a bad name.

Thelwell signs bad names. But he has a master plan, apparently.

The penalty finished us, and that's down to Dyche. McNeill, Young, Doucour! and Harrison were poor, and I thought Danjuma was shocking.

I hope Seamus and Onana are fit for Forest, and Dyche must pull the finger out, and bin Young. Massive game next Saturday.

I hope he spends more time on the bench.

For every win in us, there is another defeat… which is why, unless we get big investment, we will remain a Bottom 6 side.

As for Dyche, it's a difficult one but I think the club needs to review his position at the end of the season. Tactics and subs are baffling.

An absolute awful start which basically set the tone.

We all know there are weaknesses in this team that are easily exposed by talented teams like Man Utd but unfortunately Dyche has to go with the hand he has been dealt fully, which will result in defeats like this against this kind of opposition with big money behind them.

It's going to be a big struggle but won't get easier when you concede so early, even on your own ground.

Man Utd are in that monied group forming the higher echelon of the Premier League that walk all over us 9 times out of 10.

We are dross hoping our level of dross outguns the dross of 3 others – well in, Moshiri.

Let's not lose our heads because the form side in the Premier League and Champions League side beat us; we actually did okay today. On another day ,the scoreline might have been different.

And it was great to see us keep going, even at three-down.

I'm not happy he is starting ahead of Patterson but we didn't lose that game due to his lack of contribution. Okay, the penalty was a bad choice but plenty of penalties happen that way and few defenders don't dangle a leg every now and then.

The problem was how far United advanced in that move without any sort of challenge. No foot in by Young and I think Martial is through and scores anyway.

We have a thin squad. Dyche has to wring every ounce out of everyone. Young put in some crosses that probably deserved someone making more of them.

It's so easy for me to say this sitting here 4,000 miles away, but it saddened me to see those thousands of empty seats with 5 minutes to go. It seems like we were given the opportunity to make some sort of emphatic statement today, but we didn't.

Perhaps the occasion was too big?

We regroup, move on, stay strong, get something at Forest.

I wouldn't complain too much about the ref as he could easily have sent off Young when he awarded the penalty.

Chermiti looked sharper than Calvert-Lewin in his brief cameo.

And I wouldn't rely on Danjuma or Beto to turn up any time soon. Or ever.

If you buy reserves and Championship players, then you end up in the Championship. We've circled the drain for two seasons and now we have had a load of bleach to send us on our way.

I really really hope so.

Definition of a liability.

Don't know who your sources are, Kunal, but that's just not a good representation of the game, especially the first half which really should have been about 4-1 to us. Their goal was an out-of-the-blue, unstoppable, world-class finish that was pretty much the sum of their threat first half.

Game realistically ended after their second but that could be said to have been against the general run of play up to that point.

Also Kunal, big investment isn't allowed, that is how we ran foul of the PSR. Spending is limited by genuine income, a wealthy owner putting their money in directly doesn't count as income.

Young starting and not subbed at half-time, even with a yellow card, was as expected, and an injured Beto mean't that Calvert-Lewin failed to lead the line. Typical pressure arrived as a result in the first 15 minutes of the second half.

Si @42 I couldn't disagree more about Young.

His penalty completely changed the complexion of the game. It was a stupid challenge and once again he's completely screwed the team in a big game. Remember the Liverpool game?

Young is a mess in big games. He always makes mistakes of real consequence. He should have been sent off today as well.

He is a serious and very real weak link in a team full of guys giving 100%. He is a liability, and my only criticism of Dyche is why in the fuck does he start this guy in front of Patterson?

I don't like him in Blue, never have, and hope he doesn't play another game for Everton. His contribution today turned the game on its head – in the polar opposite direction of what we needed and wanted.

We've been done by possibly the best overhead kick I've ever seen. Better than Rooney or Bale. Extraordinary bit of skill and so early on, it's swung the game massively in Man Utd's favour.

Even then we probably should have been 2-1 up by the time they score the penalty. And 2-2 would have looked about right on balance. Very fine margins.

So the result is shit but we will play at that level and at least draw more often than not, you would hope.

Personally, I think we're in much better shape to stay up now than we were when Dyche took over. There's a lot of games to play, the squad is improving albeit slowly and we're definitely better than at least 3 other teams.

It's just not the "fuck you" fairytale we were all hoping for.

And, although it didn't really affect the result, that was among the most incompetent reffing displays I've seen this season. Utterly useless and inconsistent.

We lose most games let's be honest, that's five losses already with Newcastle, Chelsea, Man City and Villa the next four in the league.

It will be the away form that has to accumulate enough points to stay in the league.

Dyche will need to start thinking up a Plan B. Plan A may well work away from home but it ain't working at Goodison. Also, make subs that change the pattern of play, not more of the same, unless we are winning of course.

We need world-class lawyers to get that 10-point deduction turned into a fine, as playing with it is a weight too much for these players.

The opposition were 6th, without the points deduction we were 15th. A wonder goal so early was always going to be a big blow and the VAR really summed up our week. This was not a bad defeat but a game where our luck was right out at both ends of the pitch.

We pressed very well, had a number of chances and weren't scared to have a go. The crowd went quiet which was disappointing if not understandable. Our wingers are not playing very well and I can't see what Danjuma has that we were so keen to have!

This was never going to be easy and we will look so much better with Seamus and Amadou in the team. We need to dig in, work hard and don't let a loss to a Big 6 team affect us. There's a long way to go.

I think that's the best goal I've ever seen. What was it? A 20-yard cross?

To hit that ball overhead, leaving your feet as it speeds through the air so quickly is simply ridiculous.

Everyone in my house actually yelled out, it was that good.

Any Evertonians among them would have taken this as a spur to seek revenge. Any of the hired hands (and we have a few) will see it as an excuse. Our team have an excuse to relegate us.

Today was utterly predictable. Down to Dyche now. He was poor today.

And on the pitch, the one place we have charge of, you let us down.

Yes, I'm (just about) keeping faith, as are so many on here and elsewhere. But are you? Are they?

Onward. In Dyche we (have to) trust. #UTFT #EFC

ps: I've just cancelled my Sky subscription as per another thread.

Still, we got ourselves into the game and we're the better team in the first half overall. It was very disappointing that we didn't convert at least one of those very good chances that fell to Doucoure, Calvert-Lewin and Gana. The game really hinged on us grabbing an equaliser from one of those.

The penalty was the killer, Young was dangling his leg and it was asking for it. Martial knew the script and down he went. I would prefer the inexperienced Patterson to be given a run in the team, but the manager mustn't be seeing enough in training? Seamus back could solve the problem anyway, we've missed the captain.

I thought we played not far from our usual standard today but they were clinical and we were not. With the point deduction, even if it's reduced, we will have to address that fast.

All this talk of tapping into the crowd, bearpit etc — has nobody told Dyche that the players need to engage the crowd?

We sat back and just let them come at us. They scored almost immediately, albeit with a worldy. When we finally came back into it towards the back end of the 1st half, it was because we pressed and harried them into mistakes and had numerous chances.

When we needed to start the 2nd half in the same vein, what did we do? Sat back and invited them onto us again.

Imo, a dodgy penalty but we invite that kind of pressure. Man Utd are a poor team and we let them toy with us. The lack of pressing and effort from the players just killed the crowd.

As I say, awful football tactics from Dyche. Been the same all season. Just when we need a bit of momentum, we throw in a performance like that. Just cowardly from Dyche and the team. I can't believe where we're at now, no identity, shit manager and players whose default position is go backwards.

Dyche gave this up on 80 mins when he took Calvert-Lewin off. Harrison had a mare as did most of the midfield yet most stayed on the pitch.

So deflated after that, first time in a long time I've left the match early. Dyche makes Moyes look like a tactical genius. How low can we go?

Kenwright and Moshiri between them have killed this Club. I've been going to the game since the mid-70s and seen a lot of shite but nothing as gutless as this shower. It's soul-destroying.

Right, I have to say first off I'm as angry and bewildered as the next Everton fan. But, for all those complaining, for all those saying we'll be fine, just take a sneaky peak at the table as it stands.

We are deep into the poop, and think that lots of fans, indeed lots on ToffeeWeb, need to get real.

We are in grave danger of going down. Forget the "We are a big club" crap. We aren't and outside of a historical context, haven't been for a generation. All the club can do is take each game at a time and hope things go their way.

This weekend it didn't happen. Next weekend it might or might not. No one knows, so please can the posters who claim to be olde worlde soothsayers give it a rest.

People on the Live Forum today highly critical of the performance must have watched a different game from me. I thought the effort was there and having someone with the ability to put the ball in the net would have made a massive difference. But we don't, not on a regular basis anyway.

This great club has no divine right to be in the Premier League. Those who do think so are, in my opinion, wrong. Certainly Dyche needs to bench Young, but the team are making chances; making and taking are two very different things.

I can't accept the blind negativity from some. Yes, things are bad right now and will very likely become a lot worse. Pragmatism and an understanding of the present predicament would go a long way towards the sanity of some people.

We might survive or we might not. I've had to ask myself how I would feel if my Everton were to be relegated. Sad, angry at Moshiri and his idiocy (new stadium apart). But there's also a part of me that wouldn't really mind. Having got over the original shock, it might not turn out to be so bad.

I thought we might've got something today but never expected to. Decades of watching Everton have taught me never to expect anything.

So, I am grateful and happy that they scraped survival the last two seasons… Do I think they can for a third time, sadly no. And it's only my opinion, and they're like arseholes aren't they? Yes, I know I've set myself up for a kicking with that last sentence, so fire at will.

Every player he marks is quicker than him so he relies on blocking him off or diving in. He has cost a point at Anfield. 2 against Brighton (not because of the deflection but because his legs had gone and he didn't get closer to Mitoma).

The odd decent cross does not anywhere near justify his place in the starting 11. I am crapping myself when he's anywhere near the team. He's been a good player but way past it now.

Anyone know why Beto wasnt on the bench?

No it didn’t Jamie, it just set the seal on what had been an intensely frustrating game up to that point. Martial would have scored then anyway if he hadn’t been brought down.

Why should he have been sent off? For the challenge that gave the penalty away? No way was that a bookable offence.

Did you honestly think we were just about to equalise / surge ahead in the game at any point in the second half?

Their early goal was my worst nightmare and the game panned out exactly as I expected. As I posted earlier some people really don’t seem to understand the effects of adrenaline. We simply didn’t need to have to chase the game because we are really not good at that sort of thing. Nine times out of ten this squad will concede rather than equalise when having the extra pressure of having to come from behind.

It is actually embarrassing for the whole ‘resistance’ movement that supporters left early today.

Sean Dyche beginning to sound like Walter Smith: Lost 3-0 but it's a ‘pretty decent performance'.

Must do better and get out of the Bottom 3 as soon as possible. If we go into February or March lower than 14th, then it might be curtains.

Regardless of the horrors to come from the Premier League and their commission, the fight on the pitch must continue, but we have to force it.

We can't just sit back and wait for other teams to have an off day.

Just win the ‘winnable' games please.

I’m rarely one to praise the team when we’ve just lost 3-0, but aside from Ashley Young — who is becoming our new Michael Keane, with an error in him every other match — we weren’t that bad. Even Gana today was pretty good, with his best ever strike from distance cancelled out by his big miss earlier on. Once Dyche finally comes around and starts playing Patterson, now that we have enough sample size to show that he couldn’t be any worse at right back, we’ll be fine barring any injuries.

We obviously can’t go on a run without picking up points, but I still think we’re good enough to survive. This brutal run in December will tell us a lot. The doomsayers may say otherwise, and we have no divine right to stay up, but just like the last 2 years, we will find a way, especially because we’re better this year.

“I can't accept the blind negativity from some.

I thought we might've got something today but never expected to. Decades of watching Everton have taught me never to expect anything.”

That blind negativity is hard to see sometimes.

Masters

(PL LOGO)

of Corruption

We need every point we can get, so showing training videos where the players are zipping the ball around to each other without looking doesn't cut it.

To day a wonder goal may have been a body blow, but there was still lots of time to turn it around, and here's hoping we can get over today"s result and look forward to the next game and everyone learns from it

Genuine question: who put the red (red?) cards on all the seats? Was that something done by the club or from the 40K with the club's say so?

Everyone at our house, all three of us roared out also when that went in but it was far from complimentary!

Something like "Holy fuck, for fuck sake – give us a fucking break - you lucky ., Pickford should have saved that - should never have allowed that cross ...dickheads, and so on.

Bottom line is if Calvert-Lewin was Harry Kane, we would have won that.

Dyche needs to drop Young, I said a month or so back he is too easily skinned with tricky wingers and becomes a liability – I would imagine Coleman will be in there once fit enough.
Was there a bearpit atmosphere?

So 5 points behind Luton, we must hope for a reduction in our points penalty, but nothing to worry about – eh!!

watch the slo-mo of the "penalty". Young is drawing his foot backwards, away, when Martial steers his foot outwards to find it. Cheating at high speed, again.

Ref was right first time and in a good position to see it.

Not if we get 6 points chopped off, Oliver, which does not seem utterly improbable.

Going into the match, I was optimistic that we could grind out a result against this Man Utd team but the script was changed when they scored an incredible goal on 3 minutes. The same player tried to repeat the strike in the second half and missed by a country mile.

We created 4 good opportunities to grab an equaliser and get ahead before half-time time but with no luck. We are where we are and I believe that we are better than at least 3 teams by a margin exceeding the 10 points that we have been penalised.

Calvert Lewin is leading the attack as well as ever but he seemed isolated, with 2 red shirts marking him and a lack of a blue shirt within 5 metres of him to receive a layoff.

Onwards to Sheffield, COYB.

Unlike previous protests, this protest is player led. Contributions thru their GoFindMe page.

As many on here know, I look at the 38 fixtures and add the results from last year for fixtures yet to happen to those already completed.

Just updated the table - deducting Everton 10 points

Currently this is
20th Luton 21 points
19th Sheff Utd 28 points
18th Burnley 29 points
17th Everton 31 points

We can do this - and well done Mr Burnham for his letter.

He needs to be better than not any worse (which he may well be) which would make him just as bad.

I’m sorry, but despite the rants Ashley Young did not cost us the game today. Sean Dyche’s tactics did not cost us the game. Not converting any of plenty of decent chances in the first half and United’s efficiency with theirs cost us the game.

Nobody put the placards on the seats, they were handed out outside the ground.

I'm guessing Sky didn't do a close-up of the banners for fear of upsetting their mates at Premier League headquarters.

We will be better when things calm down as on paper I still believe we are 10 points better than the Bottom 3

I'm glad this game is over

Let's get back to where we were a couple of weeks ago

The more important games for us are against the teams around us and bottom half, starting with Forest away next week

There are still 25 games to go. People on here reacting we are 5 points behind Luton with a handful of games to go

Get a grip, stay optimistic and move on to the next game.

My own negative thoughts therefore are briefly as follows. The idea of the fans splurging however much on an aeroplane towing a banner, "corrupt" cards and various other banners, whilst in theory seemed to be a popular idea, it did nothing except highten tensions amongst all concerned which played against us on the pitch.

Man Utd were up for this match as much as we were, except that they didn't have as much as us on the outcome which, in the event, played into their hands. They got a fortunate, if superb, goal after only 3 minutes. Bad for us and good for them. They didn't really look back. A fortunate penalty and the game was over.

Please, no more banners etc prior to future games. By all means cheer the players on but let the games flow naturally and let's not put the players under any more pressure than they are under already. It isn't helpful or necessary.

We can get out of trouble but it is going to take a bit longer than some would have hoped for initially. The manager and the players know what is needed. Leave them to get on with it.

I felt sorry for Calvert-Lewin. No one near him to help him out, just a headless chicken.

I'm sorry but Dyche not taking Young off at half-time did cost us the game. The whole world and their dogs knew Young would fuck up… and he did.

Once again. Martial would not have scored; he hit the ball too far in front, if you watch… and there was a defender there also.

There re always banners in the Gwladys Street at every match along the "We are Everton" etc lines. So our money paid for better banners rather than banners, if you see what I mean, if there was not a word of protest.

Games like this won't define whether we stay in the Premier League anyway, and our goal difference is still way better than our relegation rivals. Luton won't pull away and I still think we're a better team than every team up to 10th.

The only thing that could derail us is us – by that, I mean the players' mentality taking a massive nosedive due to the points deduction. As an aside, I do also think we'll get at least some of the points back on appeal.

Nod to Garnacho as well – that was some goal, it has to be said.

I know the first goal was a super strike, but Young was nowhere near his marker, and shouldn't have been on for the trip, and the penalty finished the game. No point in bringing on Patterson after the horse has bolted.

However, we are in this position solely down to club mismanagement and deceit.

When we were charged in March, the club released a statement saying:

"The Club strongly contests the allegation of non-compliance and together with its team of independent experts is entirely confident that it remains compliant with all financial rules and regulations."

They went into the hearing and admitted guilt.

From the charge in March to the commission judgement in November, the club led fans to believe we were blameless.

Not only did the club break the rules but they lied to us about having done so.

It seems those who think you appease a bully like the Premier League now think our players are like Goldilocks with her porridge, not too raucous an atmosphere but also for it not to be quiet as a library. Nonsense of course but fits the "don't upset the Premier League" narrative.

And yes, there were banners in the Gwaldys Street end. I thought the 1878s fund made it pretty clear not all the fund were being used in one go.

Personally I support them and their efforts. I imagine they'll appreciate any constructive criticism for future demonstrations. Their contact details are easily found.

Ian, and the penalty was only made up in August over 5 months after we'd been charged, and applied retrospectively. Based on a “principle” the Premier League board “consider reasonable”. Very carefully worded in their report and hopefully open to investigation.

I think my exact yell was, "Fuck off! Are you kidding me? Beautiful."

Whatcha gonna do? That goal was just tip your cap, I'm honored to have even seen it, I wish you'd have missed...

It was gorgeous.

If you can't make those statements then what are you basing your opinion on?

I'm not saying Young should not have started or that the manager couldn't have subbed him at half-time (personally I would have supported both) but the actual facts are that he simply did not lose that game for us on his own. Any conjecture that we would have won or not lost if he'd not started or been subbed is just that and not actually supported by the way the game went.

The second goal killed us but that move would have ended in a goal for them instead of a penalty, independent of any part Young played.

Get real, Si. Young is consistently targeted as the weak link in our defence by every single Premier League opponent. Look at the vast majority of goals that we have conceded. They have emerged from whatever side he has been playing on.

Today, a wonder goal knocked the stuffing out of the game. It needn't have happened had Young positioned himself properly and formed some sort of defensive disruption to the player he should've been marking.

Besides the point he was well out of position, had dropped deepest and was keeping everyone on side, he stood statuesque and metres away from any opposing player as the goal went in.

People will say ‘there's nothing you can do about them'. Well there is, position properly as a natural full-back would and don't give players time or space to execute such a piece of skill. If he's there to stick his head on it, there isn't a goal to be scored and it's as simple as that.

Then he concedes the penalty. Honestly, Dyche can wipe his face all he wants in astonishment that things haven't worked out again, and he probably believes that we'd have beaten West Ham with Young in the team but he cannot see what is blatant and obvious – he was forced into our best back 4 against West Ham and it was the best performance we have put in since he's been here.

But he's too stubborn. He was absolutely insistent that his back 4 this season would be:

Coleman Tarkowski Keane Young

That's his dream back 4. And it's full of deficiency.

He was forced into the Keane change and he should have been convinced of the necessity now to bomb Young but he's sticking with it. And he will live and die by these decisions.

He is probably absolutely over the moon that we've been sanctioned 10 points as he will view it as a get-out-of-jail-free card.

As to the banners affecting the players, well that's just utter nonsense. Rubbish tactics and poor finishing put paid to any kind of resistance today.

A close first half and we should have been level. We lost our way second half.

Their keeper was the Man of the Match.

They took their chances. We didn't.

Long trip home. Then get ready for the next one.

Can we have Gordon back please?

I am only talking and posting about today's game and have explained why I don't think you could rationally say Young cost us the game today.

It is momentous bollocks to blame him for their first, just unspeakable bias against the player. No doubt you are a top-class full-back who never let any opposition have an attempt on goal? If you were, you are utterly unique.

Why not actually look at the point I've made on whether Martial would probably have scored anyway if he hadn't been tripped and then tell me why I'm so wrong?

Look forward to your objective reply.

Pity Onana was injured and Seamus never got to start.

Next month's fixtures are probably the most important in our history. All must come together. Points will save us, not protests.

There are probably quite a few contenders for the "Most Ridiculous Post on ToffeeWeb Ever". Tony A, would probably argue that a few of mine should feature.

But surely this is the undisputed world title unifying post:

"He is probably absolutely over the moon that we've been sanctioned 10 points as he will view it as a 'Get out of jail free' card."

Feck you, Tommy... I coulda been a contender!

We might as well give up now if stands full of placards and half-a-dozen banners put the players off.

Young was on a yellow and would have been better to let him go past and give the keeper a chance to save it rather than make his usual rash attempt in and around the box.

We were lucky not to go down to 10 men.

Under the way the game is now (and Ashley Young is vastly experienced, so should know this) I suppose it was a penalty. But it shouldn't be.

As at Crystal Palace, the forward was not really fouled, he played for it. It's simulation but, because “there is contact”, it's not called out as such.

We should have scored at least 2 in the first half, but our finishing was poor, so we didn't deserve the goals.

We are a below average Premier League team, with a very slender squad, that has been dealt a heavy blow. Today is not a killer, but it's going to be a tough old season, we will have to scrap like hell for every point.

We played well but the lack of quality told.

A goal of the season contender, a soft pen given away by our 39 year old right back and a quality pass from their £50m midfielder to their £35m striker who can only score against us.

Solid performances from all besides an out of sorts McNeil and the helpless Young. Gana my motm.

An absolute world class goal showed the good side of the game and when I saw the kid shaping his body to try and connect with the cross, I genuinely thought to myself “what the fuck are you doing lad” so credit to the kid, who is a little aggressive live-wire, although I’m absolutely certain he would have been booked if he had played in a blue shirt today?

It makes me sad when I think about what football has now become. A high speed game with decisions being made by slow motion replays, and I feel it won’t be long before rather than getting involved about arguing if it was a penalty or not, I’d sooner not watch a sport, that has simply become littered by cheating.

Contentious has definitely become a very key word to describe VAR, because VAR has definitely made football a much more contentious and less enjoyable sport imho, and it is definitely taking away a lot of the raw emotion that once made the sport feel so special to me.

I think United play in a very continental style, and started the game displaying a lot of craft, movement and quality, and had definitely done their homework on those over covering Everton fullbacks, but once they scored and then Everton settled down, I thought the blues definitely started creating the better chances.

We lack two things, imo, that extra little bit of quality/calmness required in the danger area’s, and that extra little bit of pace that enables a player to become a little bit more calm, instead of rushing or getting excited when good chances come their way?

We are getting better, but I also felt like we were a relic of the club we used to be at times today, and it hurt me deeply watching our supporters protesting, because even though we were right to do this, it has still been brought on by ineptness, and by nepotism, and a new era cannot come soon enough for some of the most passionate fans in the country, who I believe deserve so much better.

I live in hope, so I’m hoping for better owners who have a plan to take us forward, and make us competitive once again🤞

Terry, we play far too narrow, the first goal came when a long diagonal ball reached an unmarked Rashford (or Shaw) who then crossed. Mykolenko was, as ever, two close to the CB’s. Not his fault, these are Dyche’s tactics. Every week the same long diagonal ball catches us out. Infuriating.

Terry, didn’t see your reply but still disagree anyway. Plenty of defenders lose attackers if they stop advancing / actually retreat. 99 times out of a hundred that cross doesn’t lead directly to a unstoppable able shot on goal.

On the penalty incident I think the ball is beating Tarks so he could only affect things by fouling Martial himself (who has the momentum in the right direction), and Martial expertly beat the keeper for the third and is apparently reknowned for that. I also think it is in the build up that players other than Young should have done more and plenty of defenders dangle a leg and then don’t retract it in time in those situations.

Like I’ve stated, I’m not particularly wanting Young on the pitch myself but I’m objective enough to view everything in isolation that should be taken in isolation.

Pickford, performed well, but was beaten by a wonder goal, then a penalty and Martial's well taken goal. Young, experienced (?) should not have been on in place of the over-looked again Patterson. Tarks and Branthwaite, virtually faultless as with Myko.

Midfield didn't perform well at all, McNeil and Harrison, way below their best. Doucoure, again below his best and often not in the game. DCL led the line well but should have taken his chances better.

Yet again, Dyche leaves substitutes far too late to have any impact, against an under-performing United side, who were made to look better than they were.

Referee, another who looked out of his depth and biased towards United. Are there any decent Officials in the Premier League ? I am struggling to imagine us getting enough points to escape this lowly (imposed) position we are in, if home games especially, are treated like this and those hitherto the point deduction !

I just wish the players shared the optimism and determination of the Fans ! Another show of solidarity that many Teams would crave for !

I never used to miss a game online.

Haven't watched one for a long time and have some koppite mates who are the same and they are up there (as ever!)

Tony 124] Ben “the red” Kent (Snr) made a similar point about VAR on Radio Merseyside - specifically that the spontaneous joy of celebrating a goal is becoming removed as we all wait to see if VAR can conjour up a reason to disallow it.

Paul 83 - I see it differently. I think it is highly unlikely we will get a reduction. Can you imagine the uproar if Luton stayed 5 points clear of us on remaining results and were relegated by 1 point.

Time for reality to set in fellas. We have to do this all on our own.

Not did any of the other ten players concede the penalty.

Just before he was hooked, we had a corner and some attacking impetus. It was played back to him and he lofted a ball about 50 metres into the air and ruined any chance of attack.

These are small things that most supporters may not notice.

Likewise his amazing ‘block’ in the Derby a few minutes before he was dismissed was abject abysmal positioning and am action that need never have taken place had he positioned well enough to negate the attacking impetus.

I don’t claim to be some kind of amazing full back nor do I need to to know that:

Premier league footballers starting games at 38 years old are the absolute exception rather than the rule for a reason

Full back is a specialised position

He is not a full back. He’s an attacking midfielder that has been converted to a full back because his legs have gone

He is being repeatedly and incessantly targeted as a weak link in our play by every single opponent in a league where fine margins and one chance will win you a game.

One of few people who cannot see that he is an ultimate liability, tragically, is the manager

When I watch my grandsons’ games, I always video their attacks on my phone (with the consent of both managers). Yesterday, there was a contentious penalty for our team, I showed it to the referee after the match to demonstrate what a wise decision he had made! As requested prior to the game, I shared it last night with the opposition manager.

Out of nowhere in the Main Stand today he collared me, and told me how dreadful a decision it was! We had a good laugh about it, and I suspect that’s what has got wrong with it all - it’s a game of footy, a beautiful sport, one that can hinge on the finest of margins, where opponents can respect each other, despite getting upset at times. And have a laugh.

I don’t think you’ll ever fall out of love with football, only the perversion of it that we see at “the top level”.

Maybe that's what experience teaches you rather than Patterson actually having a go and getting criticised when things don't come off.

I'm not sure what Coleman will have left but we'll need to see. It's ridiculous that he's even in the equation and that's as much testament to the shambles our club is, as it is to the high standards of the man himself.

Otherwise I didn't doubt the effort and that was enough to cause them plenty of problems. Quality does tell though.

I thought Gueye did well, as long as you keep him away from the goals. Garner has been a bit of a let down for me - there's quality there but he's really struggling to get involved on the ball.

McNeil really hasn't hit his personal heights of last season, and Harrison gets a run purely because he's the only right winger at the club. He's incredibly frustrating - have a touch and cross the ball! He always seems to need one more touch. Mind you the usually even more frustrating Danjuma showed a bit off the bench and might be an option.

Thought DCL had an off day. But remained a handful.

In reality there's not much we can change. Dyche seems now to at least understand that Onana is a starter over Gueye, Branthwaite is a starter over Keane, Garner can't play wide. At some point he'll figure out that Young shouldn't be in the team. And maybe that the world doesn't need to revolve around Doucoure.

After being all fired up we are brought down to earth after 2 mins.

Removing the angry blue specs and switching to realistic mode, I have to admit that this result could've happened with the 10pts.

Claw the points back One Game at a Time - starting next week.

Now to watch it.

I never he was at fault for the 1st goal. It was just a blinding goal brilliantly taken. The second was a combination of young and Dyche fault. Young is not good enough and was on a yellow that should really have been a second yellow just before half time with a rash tackle on a United player. Everyone new he should have been subbed except Dyche. Lo and behold he gives a pen away.

On the pen. Watch martials first touch he knocks it to far in front snd Pickford or the defender to his side would easily have intercepted it. There is my explanation

Dyche should either show him some videos of Kante or Makelele or just bin him off.

My youngest son was playing today, and when he ran and got the ball to take a throw-in, he suddenly booted the ball away when the ref told him he had given the throw-in to the other team. The ref called him over, and when my son started walking off the pitch, I was thinking to myself, that’s a little bit harsh, but I was soon nodding my head in agreement when my son came back with the ball.

Footballers need to learn to have respect for each other once again and suddenly players might stop cheating the fucking life out of the opposition and concentrate instead on trying to make the game beautiful, once again 🙏

I am disappointed with some of the other attempts, Duke going wide when it looked like he had time was most disappointing. On the other hand we have opportunities and will convert eventually. We actually had a decent first half minus the disappointing misses and that was with Gana in middle. We may have given up goals anyway but had we gone even we were comfortable in defence for the most part.

Today’s game was massive and such a blow, even a draw psychologically would have given us encouragement

Absolutely gutted

That means you are simply ignoring the fact we were already one nil down and had failed to convert any of our plentiful chances.

To me that is not a balanced view of the game overall.

You also can’t have ‘he should have been sent off’ because in reality he wasn’t sent off.

We also managed to concede another goal and not score when he was subbed.

So that is one goal conceded due to him versus 2 others (that no reasonable person would blame him individually for) plus over 20 missed opportunities to score, and you reckon that adds up to ‘blame one player for the result’?

But there are a lot more than seven games left.

Believeeeeeee!

Three or four poor performances from our eleven also contributed to the result, Gana gets some stick on here for his performance today but he was among the best for me along with Tarkowski, Branthwaite and our left back.

Regarding the penalty, they showed it on the big screens, which was unusual, and I thought Young was trying to pull away from Martial who looked to dive to me as did the referee who changed his mind after loooking at it a good few times.

The crowd became an anti climax after that really outstanding first United goal and maybe they had worn themselves out after a very long afternoon campaigning and cheering themselves hoarse before the game had even begun.

Another day and another fight will carry on next week and the week after until the end of the season but I think many of us are sick of the way football is run these days and my very strong addiction to the game has waned considerably these last few years and not much of the way I feel about is because of Everton’s lack of success and poor performances, more the corruptness which is so evident in all parts of the game.

The answer, of course, is that #138 added zilch to the conversation and you did not even mention the. match once.

I'll try this again. I'll ask you a direct question that just needs a simple direct answer. Can you give me the names of half-a-dozen posters on here who might be said to belong to this Gueye "fan club".

I've read "on here" but perhaps you could reassure us with concrete information about this "fan club". I mean you are well known for providing cast-iron information and for never ducking reasonable questions.

Dyche's rationale for continuing to select Young has certainly been obliterated at this point. Patterson and Coleman must be in contention at this point.

It's two opinions.

No where has Si "backed" Young or been some Young fan boy. He's been very clear about that. He simply doesn't see the PK as the turning point in the game or why we lost the game. Most of us beg to differ.

And Si, I'd say "crucifying" is a bit strong. Young's a human being, so good luck to him in life. But representing Everton on the pitch he's gawd-awful in my opinion, and has definably made some terrible plays. Whether those misjudgments cost us points or not is up for debate. But c'mon man, the dude simply can't play for us any longer, he's a massive liability.

Personally, coupling in the fact I never wanted him signed, and detested his diving antics with other clubs prior to joining Everton, I've never like him [as a footballer] and in fact detested the way he played, flopped, and conducted himself on the pitch. He drove me nuts. Might be a "Jamie problem" but that's just the way I see it.

In our first MOTD since an historic points deduction, there was ZERO - repeat, zero - discussion of the deduction in any shape or form from the panel. Nothing. Match discussion & move on. Can you imagine if this had been one of the Cartel 6?

The only highlight was Theo-Allardyce-Legend-Walcott suggeting we made Utd look like City. The chipmunk twat. The level of analysis on that show is beyond the pale.

Also noticed that they never showed the actual content of those 40k signs we all held up. Not a single zoom-in / close-up, that'd show the word 'Corrupt'.

Some obviously subtle but important editorial decisions made here. How do we effectively call it out? FFS I love the BBC, I'm not one of these left-wing/right-wing 'the BBC has been taken over' delusionals, but christ, this was obvious. FFS...

But Young shouldn't be starting, and even though he did start, should have been subbed off after his yellow card.

We need to stop licking our wounds over injustices and concentrate on grinding some results out.

All of this is just particularly frustrating because as we’ve seen with dropping Gana, moving Garner to the middle, and playing Branthwaite over Keane, the fans on TW have seen clearly what Dyche only sees when he’s done being stubborn and possibly costing us points. This is now true of Young. And to think I’m still a fan of Dyche, because as with the match today, he has been getting the tactics mostly right, given what we’ve got — but today we couldn’t score and we gave up a bad penalty, while also being hit with the goal of the season. Those aren’t on Dyche. Picking Ashley Young certainly is.

I've always been a fan of Young and thought he was an astute addition given our financial situation. Sadly, watching him now reminds me of the latter days of Bryan Robson.

Fergie kept playing him but his age and loss of pace became a huge liability and his last year was nothing but red cards and fouls conceded.

Due to our lack of depth, I think, in a more advanced position, that Young has something to offer. But as the last line of defence, sadly it appears we signed him a year too late.

For clarity, I'm not blaming him for today's defeat or any other but, based on what we've seen this season, we have better options at full-back. Even though they're not exactly great.

Young 1 foul v Man Utd
Keane 1 handball v Liverpool
Branthwaite 1 foul v Crystal Palace
Pickford 1 foul v Aston Villa

Can we draw any conclusions from these stats? I think they were all given by the VAR!

Yes, Young cost us the game, IMO. He stuck his leg out and gave a stupid penalty away. Martial had Pickford and a defender to beat.

This penalty would not have happened if the manager had done what all fans said he should do and that was take him off at half-time.

So, to clarify yours: Young cost us the game.

I agree he shouldn't be ‘crucified'.

Just dropped from the team and replaced.

That's all.

We probably expected too much and yes, the lads on the pitch earn tons of money but they are only human and couldn't rise to the expectations of supporters.

Back to the drawing board and grinding out some results, methinks.

We need to make sure that was just a blip so we can start making footballing headlines instead of filling newspapers with stories of the Commission findings, the Premier League and all the other distractions.

If we are not careful, we will be dragged under. We need to stay positive, stay focused, and stop dangling a leg… UTFT's

There is contact but the Everton player is definitely pulling his leg away from the United player at the time of contact, so does this make it a penalty kick?

Is it that the next phase of play doesn't matter anymore? Has football now adopted the same rules as basketball?

Martial's first touch was as good as to be expected considering the speed he was running at when he received the ball, and my opinion was that, because of this speed, he was always going to overrun the ball (which he did) but it seems this no longer matters?

Football by freeze-frame is definitely different than football played at breakneck speed.

We executed our plan well, and in another day could have won. Fine margins.

3 points on the road next time out would go a long way to easing the tension.

On another day we'd have taken a point, but our finishing is more miss than hit and we simply don't have much raw talent in the team.

Dyche is doing a brilliant job with a weak squad of players, and the players are doing their best within their obvious limitations.

Young's realised and pulled out and at pace Martial almost kicks Young's leg to go down. I think it's the initial misjudgement by Young that he just rectifies in time that causes it.

To be objective, if we were denied a penalty for the same incident at 1-0 down, there would be indignation.

The news that El Tel had passed – may he RIP – dominated the day really.

Then you have Sly TV and the BBC making sure no-one could read the pink cards as 38,000 were held up and ignoring the loud booing of that anthem before kick-off.

Then a goal of the decade is scored by Man Utd inside 3 minutes. Everton and fans flattened.

It took 20 minutes for us and the team to clear our heads and we had a go. After half-time, a dodgy penalty awarded by the VAR after the ref booked Martial – he scored against us yet again – for diving.

Was it an obvious error by the ref? Not in my opinion but I am so convinced that the Premier League and the VAR are corrupt, that it would not surprise me if it had been talked about before kick-off:

"If Man Utd have a shout for a penalty, deny it and then we'll call you over to the TV, freeze the frame and you can give it."

We were crap in the 2nd half. I reckon too much nervous energy was wasted in the build-up to the game and it was too much for most of the players. I don't know what's happened with McNeill and Harrison but they are not worth their places in the team at the present time.

McNeill lost Dalot for the first goal by leaving Mykolenko on his own against Rashford and Dalot. Where was Young? Wasn't he supposed to mark Garnacho? Nobody was near him.

If Luton get to 30 points, we have to get to 40 to finish above them on goal difference or get that 10-point deduction rescinded. Sheffield Utd and Burnley are gone – aren't they… or is that wishful thinking ?

Can I ask, what happened to Beto yesterday. Was he injured or ill?

Come January, we will have to bring in at least 3 players (no doubt on loan or as a Bosman), a covering centre-back who can also play left left-back, as Young is finished in my opinion. A midfielder, preferably a defensive midfielder and a central midfielder as cover. The yellow cards we are getting are mounting up so the 1st XI need a stronger squad behind them – over to you, Mr Thelwell and good luck!

A message to Sean Dyche: We need a Plan B at home, though I'm sure you know that already – don't you?

He could have roughed up Maguire and Lindelof!

Now, I'm pretty sure they aren't meeting before games to discuss “tactics” per se but it's known to all refs in the Premier League by their paymasters, which teams are “important” and which teams are just makeweights.

So, if the Sly 6 get a whiff of a penalty, they'll do everything they can to give it and vice versa. Which is why we see the controversy week after week. Most of these decisions are straightforward.

Young's yesterday was 60/40 and Martial went towards him with the intention of diving before there was any contact. The original decision, in real time, was correct. So the cheats won the day again.

Here's a question – why can't managers challenge a VAR decision during a game? They challenge them in other games…. And why can't we hear the VAR mob?

They don't want transparency as they don't want to risk their perceived golden pot, where they have created an anti-competitive structure, with the favoured clubs earning more prize money… sponsorship… Europe…. more money…. so can spend more money… .on better players…. and on and on.

If I was Everton, I'd take them to European Court of Arbitration and demand P&S Rules be scrapped for this very reason. Which is pretty obvious to anyone with a head.

Totally agree with all of that.

I was seething and coming up to boiling point listening to their post-match "analysis".

They did eventually get round to mentioning Everton but most of the "chat" seemed like inane waffle just to fill the allocated time slot.

And I'm in the same camp as you regarding the BBC.

Fair enough. I watched the penalty at the game, saw a foul and a booking given and handed out, obviously couldn't hear what was said from the studio far away but saw the referee stop and listen and said the fella next to me “This going to VAR” and you know the rest.

Get a touch, the slightest one will do, go down and in today's game, in the words of ex-players now pundits, “He was entitled to go down there” which translated means he was entitled to cheat.

Being honest, if the player going down belongs to your team then you will accept cheating as being part of the game.

It still stinks whatever way you look at it and that's another reason fans are being turned away from the game they once couldn't get enough of.

I think Everton were guilty again of not taking their chances and this isn't new – we failed to take our chances against Fulham, Wolves and Luton at home. I felt like we had more chances than Man Utd and more efforts on goal than them, so settled down to watch MotD in a calmer fashion than I was at the match to see if my impressions were correct.

And all the panel of Murphy, Jenas and Walcott talked about was the Garnacho wonder goal and the performance of Mainoo.

Now while the highlights clearly showed, after the first 15 minutes of the 1st half ,it was all Everton with Man Utd on the ropes. Calvert-Lewin had 2 great chances with headers from 6 yards out, Doucoure missed a good chance as did Gueye and McNeil also should have scored. Other than the goal, I can't remember another effort on goal by Man Utd.

While in the 2nd half, we weren't as good. Gueye had a great effort saved by Onana and Mykolenko hit the bar as well as other chances for Calvert-Lewin and Harrison that weren't converted.

Yet all this panel went on about was our lack of aggression, but didn't mention the amount of chances we created against the very few that Man Utd created. Seems nowadays whichever side wins the pundits create a narrative that suggests why they won and don't really give a proper assessment of the game.

I thought our fans were magnificent again and a massive thank you to the 1878 Originals who organised the signs for us to hold up and the fantastic banners that were on display. Again, no mention by the panel on the points deduction, if this had been a Top 6 club involved, there would have been much more time spent on discussing the deduction.

Getting back to the football side, I thought both Harrison and McNeil were not good enough. I think Harrison lacks quality, his deliveries into the box aren't good, and McNeil is just too inconsistent.

Yet another game where Young has shown he just isn't up to what we need from a full-back. I thought again Mykolenko was our best player, they moved Rashford onto the left as he was getting no joy against Mykolenko.

I thought Gueye did okay, but was disappointed again by James Garner. But the bottom line is you can't keep missing guilt-edged chances and expect to win games.

We were so passive in that first 15 minutes it was ridiculous. It was so easy for their back 4 (5 if you include the keeper who likes to get involved as much as possible).

I think that's coached, I don't think it was player instinct, which is really surprising from Dyche.

Now you can count what little quality we do have on one hand: Pickford, Branthwaite, Onana, Calvert-Lewin. I would love to count Dele as well, but I just can't. The rest are either too old or simply not good enough.

That's not to say they aren't trying either, Dyche is doing his best to make a working team out of them all, but individually only those 4 could be sold to better clubs.

I don't like Dyche's tactics, I confess, but he is trying to use what he has and to some extent its working, but there is no way in heaven with the players he has that he can just sit back and let the other side have total control.

We aren't good enough in midfield or defence to shut down quality players, end of. We need to stop teams playing football against us, close teams down.

Dyche can point to the chances all day long, but we need sufficient quality players to put them away. We have to close the gulf in class and be better. That includes tactics and players. I don't think Dyche can rely on his concession-of-play tactic anymore – we have to hunt in packs!

I gave up blaming managers a few years back.

He, like his predecessors, are partly victim of the way the club has been run and the disastrous transfer policy of the past several years (if you can call it that).

During the Ancelotti reign, I kept saying, to those who would listen, "We need better players."

I know that's a simplistic view but, for too long, we've relied on a core of about 12 to 14 players trusted by the manager. Dyche is doing it now. Stood in the ground yesterday, many were calling for changes.

Now I agreed, but I did ask those around me, "What are the options?" There lies the problem.

I am convinced Manchester City could put two teams out that would both finish in the top four if that was possible.

The tacit agreement betwixt fans and the dynamic duo allowing respectability before the perils of unattainable ambition could only ever end one way – decline.

The brief reversal of the trend via Martinez served only to demonstrate the necessity of proper money and the right personnel but, without both, any success would be fleeting. Better players would be sold and adequate replacements unaffordable… and that is exactly how it's panned out.

I don't doubt we'll survive in the Premier League this season but the albatross of the new build along with serial chancers taking charge makes it just a matter of time before we go down. It's like watching a 3rd rate melodrama unfold in slow motion.

Sorry to disagree but I don't think we have any quality players, and that's why we have spent so long in the relegation area.

I was reminded that on Boxing Day 2020 Everton were 2nd in the Premier League… just let that sink in… 2nd… and yet, within months of Ancelotti departing, we were in the relegation zone with Benitez in charge.

Also, he took over the same squad as Ancelotti but within weeks he sold James and Digne – two of our most creative players, and unbelievably some of our fans booed Digne when he returned with Villa. When we should have applauded him for he said what most of us knew that Benitez didn't have a clue how to get the best out of this team.

We have since replaced Benitez with Lampard and Dyche but, like his two predecessors, Dyche has also had us fighting relegation since he has been here.

I would just like to mention our DOF of whom Dyche has said that, given how little he had to spend, Thelwell has done a brilliant job. Now whether Dyche actually believes that or not, doesn't anybody else think that the two players that Dyche obviously brought in Young and Harrison start every game when fit.

Yet what I consider Thelwell's buys, Beto and Chermiti, and his loan deal for Danjuma, get very few minutes. Hardly looks to me like two people on the same page.

This is the difference between the really great coaches and the so-so ones, in the derby Klopp immediately reacts to the possibility that a player could be sent off and substitutes him. Young gets a yellow almost the same time as his derby yellow and Dyche does nothing.

I think everyone else has covered the game so I won't add to it, but as I don't mind sounding like a scratched record here goes:

Dyche needs to solve the problem of no overlapping backs; neither Young or Mykolenko do it on a consistent basis. At home, I think he should play 3 at the back with Mykolenko as the 3rd back with McNeil & Patterson as wing backs and Harrison Dom & Danjuma up top.

McNeil is playing like he played this time last season and is offering nothing going forward, while Danjuma doesn't look arsed. Being a starter may envigorate him and he's got a goal in him.

Harrison has been poor in the 2 to 3 games but I thought he looked better with Patterson running off him.

One of our best performances of the season was against Villa in the Carabou Cup and we looked really comfortable playing 2 at the back; even with the calamity magnet in the team.

Branthwaite, Calvert-Lewin, Pickford, Onana and the improving Mykolenko imo, the others are no more than average players who would struggle to make a Top 10 starting place. This, coupled with a manager who is not a "expansive and forward-thinking manager" leaves us in a rather precarious place.

His late substitutions yesterday were a joke, two strikers on in the last what...10 minutes? already 3 down and the game over.

You could argue he was giving them a run out, but for god's sake, he should have changed it and gone at them after the 2nd goal, we were dead and buried by then anyway.

Every game seems to follow the same pattern, lose the first goal and it's unlikely that we will have the luck, ability etc to even gain a point; score the first goal and it, if being the only goal of the game,will likely see Everton win.

If that home form doesn't improve significantly, and soon, with or without the points deduction, we're in for a calamitous season. At least the lads and lasses who follow Everton away have seen some great results.

Those of us unable to travel away, and that's the majority of match-going fans, struggle to enjoy watching the rinse and repeat script which seems to haunt our team, regardless of who's in charge, regardless of which players are in the first team.

Even those hardy souls who traveled away from home, have had all their enjoyable results days, from this season, wiped out by the Premier League, at the stroke of a pen, as the 10-point deduction equates to exactly the number of points that Everton have won on the road this season.

Due to that ruling, Everton have only registered two league away wins that have actually counted in the last season and a bit.

We'll keep attending the games at Goodison, we'll continue to get behind the team as much as possible, but it's becoming very difficult to keep on hoping that we'll properly turn the corner to see better days.

The financial shenanigans may cost us dearly unless the team can get some consistency soon.

We have glaring weaknesses that talented teams like Man Utd will continue to exploit but Dyche has to start taking some blame when selecting Young to start and having the team ill-prepared mentally from the kick-off.

Defensively, they are full of holes with the midfielders not tracking back quick enough. Gana and Harrison are just not strong enough.

And on subs, we aren't going to use up legs chasing an unlikely result. I will wait for another discussion but it isn't as simple as being stubborn.

By the way, the team is improving. What happened was administrative not a collapse of the team's play. We are on the up even though the table was reset.

In my opinion, Doucouré works his socks off but has not got the skill or guile to be in the Number 10 position.

I thought Chermiti did well in his short time on the pitch. Chermiti just behind Calvert-Lewin, instead of changing like for like, without a Plan B.

Defensively we are inept because of a weak midfield who don't track back and give the ball away too easily. Couple this with poor attacking play and it's a recipe for disaster.

If we'd scored one of the many decent chances we had in the first half, it might have been very different.

Not our best performance with the forwards in particular playing beneath themselves but 0-3 did not feel a deserved result and we could have got a draw or more on another more clinical day.

I thought we missed Onana in the middle and his ability to move the ball quickly.

I was frustrated when I saw Young start the second half, he was very fortunate not to get a second booking on a couple of occasions and it was obvious he'd make a mistake. He's just not up to it, unfortunately. Dyche needs to see this!

0-3 does not reflect the match, in any way shape or form. We lack quality, particularly in the final third, and got punished for it yet again. Onwards and upwards.

I’m mostly on this criticism of Dyche that implies he doesn’t know what to do. This is patently absurd and I’m tempted to write it off as unserious. People need an outlet, fine, but that isn’t a serious discussion.

There are obvious constraints to the proposed solutions which again seem like cheap shots. Just switching it up when we go behind doesn’t address how disjointed our play became when we did switch up frequently. It seems the initial problem was somewhat solved but now any disappointment in final outcomes threatens that improvement in a desperate call for change.

It isn’t capitulation when you rationally save your resources for the most likely result. Our ‘plan A’ was blown up by a wonder goal. We then outplay a better team and can’t get it across the line from the 20 minute mark on. It sometimes doesn’t work out and the nerves from the larger situation likely played a factor in that. Saying Dyche failed somehow just looks like you’re trying to get back what was lost in our unbeaten streak.

The last thing I want is for Dyche to fail but... he really does need to adapt to situations quicker than he does.

At 2-0 he should've gone all-out 4-4-2 imo, we just don't get enough bodies in the box and rely too much on a one-man striker who was as ineffective as I've seen against a notoriously nervous Maguire.

That said; He did look as flat-footed as PC Plod standing on a snooker table when Martial ghosted past him.

Painful loss, but we go again… and again… and again.

Yesterday could not have gone better – for the Premier League. Starting with the death of Venables, RIP (who would have won trophies with the current English players available, unlike Southgate), the day only got worse as it went on.

Giving away an early goal, not a scruffy tap-in but a worldy that will be shown for years because so few come off. 99.99% of attempted bicycle kicks either go yards wide, miles over the bar, bounce feebly into the keeper's arms or are completely laughable air shots. Not against us though. The fault lies in giving a player so much time and space to try out a training ground showboater.

The officials and then the VAR combined to play their part, as they will in all of our remaining matches. In this scenario, we simply cannot afford to keep starting Young. Like Keane, he costs us points and continuously risks us being down to 10 vs 12.

The score flattered Man Utd and, but for poor finishing, a few great saves and a couple of goal-line clearances we, still could have won despite conceding three.

The result, the wonder goal, and the death of Venables enabled the media to largely avoid or reduce coverage of our protests. I imagine the biggest cheers yesterday will have been at Premier League HQ. It could not have gone better for them.

They will now feel free to proceed with the second phase of the plan to destroy Everton – the compensation 'settlement' designed to bankrupt us and/or force us into selling the spine of our team to the Sky 6 at knock-down prices in January that will guarantee our relegation. Win-win for the Premier League and the Sky 6. The timing of the hearing and the appeals/compensation process fits this scenario perfectly. They were planning all this over a year ago in my opinion, while our representatives naively fully co-operated.

But nonetheless we must continue to fight to the bitter end. Go down fighting if we must. The message to the rotten and corrupt Premier League must be 'We have not yet begun to fight'.

A gap has now opened up that cannot be allowed to widen. We simply have to get 3 points at Forest.

You're correct with what you say about "earning a free kick' or, as we call it, 'cheating'… but – rather than turn fans away – I think it is attracting fans.

We have 20k on a waiting list to be put through this punishment every week! I just don't understand it.

The game is almost a non-contact sport. The cheating and play-acting is awful but people love it.

If Calvert-Lewin would have got the penalty instead of Martial, lots on here would be saying it was a stone-wall penalty.

The freeze frame versus real time is also misconstruing and confusing refs. Yesterday's ref was in a perfect position and gave the correct decision. Then, all the arm chairs get shuffled around in Stockley Park and make him change his mind.

We just need to focus game by game and keep team spirit up.

I totally understood the substitutions of Calvert-Lewin and Doucoure; without either one, we are in trouble.

I understood why we brought Young in as Coleman was injured and the jury out for both young full-backs. Dyche now needs to 'rest' Young, He has had a great career but he is a liability now.

The lineup and set up is so predictable, I think he'd happily play that side, week in & week out, all season. There's very little adaption to the way we set up in terms of positioning or tactics, or a different plan to expose any opposition weakness.

Changes in the side are usually forced on him through injury or consistent errors, and his use of substitutions and in-game management is really starting to show him up against some of the other well-run clubs in the league.

If everything goes well, great! We have a side capable of getting a result here and there with a solid performance but I feel like the team is capable of more.

This isn't a reaction to yesterday's performance, I'm happy for Dyche to stick around and hopefully build a solid platform for a few years but, if he doesn't start to adapt soon, he will only have himself to blame if we're looking for a new manager.

On the players, McNeil is in his first half of last season form, Harrison is surprisingly (worryingly) ineffective and Garner is disappointingly not kicking on after a decent start. Our inability to take chances is well documented. But there is really precious little on the bench.

At least Young stayed on the pitch this time. He looked a nailed-on certainty for another red...

The penalty finished the game, and why was Young in a central position considering he was playing right-back? Why wait to go 0-2 down before Dyche makes the substitutions?

Apart from Young being poor, Harrison, who was worse than McNeill and never got one cross in, and Doucoure, who was also poor, should have been subbed at 0-1.

I know we had few offensive players on the bench, but after watching Danjuma's embarrassing effort yesterday, I'd have Dobbin ahead of him every time now.

Harrison did get crosses in, our forward/s just didn't move quick enough to get on the end of some.

McNeil could have finished the game with 2 assists and a goal yesterday if it wasn't for erratic finishing and Calvert-Lewin perhaps should have played him in first rather than going for goal himself.

Ashley Young was the victim of it on Sunday, the con men who feign injury or foul play is bad enough, but the United player played the man not the ball. It was not merely a case of foul play but one of deceit.
It happens in every game, the forward knocks the ball too far and veers into the defenders body to claim a foul. It's an art and the really good players have perfected it, always have..
The difference now is the referees, in days gone by the referees would say to the forward, "do that again and your off"
Now the blade of grass that brushed a big toe is enough to get a penalty AND a player sent off. It used to be a contact sport, a tussle for the ball, were a tackle was not deemed an offence but a fair challenge.
We hear a lot about simulation, but in every game you see it..players look and act as if their legs are broken, can perform dives that are awarded points in the Olympics.. yet miraculously wave the stretchers away to take the penalty and give a sly smile to team mates going back to the restart..
So what? It's the game now, we'll, it's not. It the Premier league, it's Seria A, in fact it's probably any top league in any country.. it's not going to change. It's gone..
It's still simulation. It's still cheating, it's ruined a game. The days of hard men are gone, and rightly so, protection of the skilful is paramount, but not to the loss of the competitive game.
Yet here is the glaring truth, any corner, any team, defenders grab, pull, block, hold and foul opposition players that anywhere else on the field is seem as a booking offense. Yet nothing is done by authorities, by referees, players carry on, penalties never given.. but whoa betide if an attacker holds or grapples..
Inconsistencies, poor rules, poor referees..
Ashley Young should have known this before he left 3 of his toes in the vicinity of Martials foot, and left him decrying the fact that his reflexes are a millisecond slower than the forward who saw, then engineered the foul. But that's the game, we're interpretation has given way to illusion, where touch is condemnation. It's still cheating.

If Young stayed in his natural position, he is not making that tackle, that gave away a penalty.

All it takes is the ball to be pinged from one side of the pitch, to the other and their wide player is in acres of space, to either attack and cut in, or ping a cross into the danger area.

On a number of occasions, Patterson has been caught in no mans land, when the ball has gone over his head and played to their wide player, it is hardly the fault of Patterson to be instructed to defend closer to his centre halves.

Time and again we are getting caught out on this tactic.

I've said many times over recent years that if you believed in that stuff you would think we are cursed, it sure feels like it.

We made more chances than Utd but didnt find the net again, we wont be relegated because we lost to Utd though.

What will happen with the appeal is anybodys guess, mine is that they will reduce the points deduction probably by 2 or maybe 4 on a good day.

Whatever they do we wont be relegated.

Of course it is 😂

Very hard to say.

Personally like most fans I'd like to see Patterson as first choice.

But there may be fitness issues - given Patterson has been unusually fragile since he's been here. Or maturity issues - he's 22 now but plays like a rookie still.

Whatever the case, I expect him to finish the season as our clear first choice RB.

Is it really costing us points? Probably not. Patterson is poor positionally and immature defensively. He may not have made the Martial tackle, but he may equally have just let Martial stride through and score anyway. Or some other error.

The real reason we lost yesterday is Man Utd scored so early and so spectacularly. And bad finishing on our part. It's that simple.

I watched former pros analysing our team and saying we will be okay, largely due to the experienced players we have. Young, Gana and Seamus were all mentioned as reasons for us to be optimistic. If there are better players on form and fitness available, I prefer the old pros to be in a supporting role.

Young was unlucky with the penalty I think, their player made sure he made contact by going toward that partially outstretched leg that Young was retracting. Martial threw his other leg up in the air the instant the left leg touched Young, a dive for sure. A penalty in these stupid times though. No common sense applied at all.

The interpretation of the rules of the game is a shambles really. The VAR is just embarrassingly poor in its current guise. How they can fuck it up so often and so hugely is quite something really. Shambles all over.

Yes, but... he stuck his leg in. Why? It was a poor challenge, he was positioned terribly, and it cost us a PK that put us down by two when we were threatening a goal.

I still maintain it was a stupid challenge and changed the complexion of the game. Your mileage may vary.

You make a fair point about this duping of officials. Drives me nuts, as it does you. But still, why? Why would this supposed veteran who's on the pitch for stability and savvy veteran knowledge stick his foot in? Shouldn't he know better at 38 years of age? It was just dumb.

This is the same Chris Kavanagh who never told Paul Tierney to go and have a look at the Rodri handball, that thankfully ended up costing Liverpool the title.

The refereeing standards in the EPL are very inconsistent, and if it's not corruption, then it's ineptitude, so they definitely need replacing either way.

They showed it despite it being an NFL Sunday.

Even us stupid Americans, most of which don't know or watch soccer, were like, "Holy crap what a goal."

Any fan of footy has to appreciate that goal. It was a thing of beauty. Stinks it happened against us, but it really was beautiful and amazing.

All the time wasted going to the TV monitor when we know he's going to give it.

The other 2 goals, were avoidable, but in between, Everton could and should have put the game out of reach by half time, but the lack of composure in the kill zone, is hurting Everton.

The penalty was a bitter blow so early into the second half.

I hope Seamus, is available for selection, this weekend.

All due respect to Ashley Young, but he was getting skinned, and so for me along with his dead balls, he should be rested. The penalty, on replay on the box, looked like so many not given, but the odd ones are, and it was always going to v Utd.

I doubt if it was at Old Trafford, they’d have even used the var of the pitchside monitor.

But I’d also say keeping the back line narrow, invites trouble, but also Onana, in midfield, for me makes a difference to the balance of the team.

He’s learning but getting better, unlikely to be available for Forest.

But Everton, have plenty of guts to beat Forest on Saturday, and will overcome, the 10 points and stay up.

But to win again at Goodison, would be nice too.

UTFTs!

Regards the debate with the penalty, I say this – if that had been the other way about, we would all be going off our heads if we had not got a penalty. Mind you, still a long way to go, probably could happen yet with the corrupt Premier League!

Young ain't no good at full-back, Young just ain't no good anywhere.

Premier League fixtures to end of the year:

Forest (A), Newcastle (H) (and the return of Gordon), Chelsea (H), Burnley (A), Spurs (A), Man City (H), Wolves (A).

I really haven't a clue what we might get out of these!

Unfortunately this is because our players are not in the same league as the likes of Rashford or Garnacho.

We have a Crystal Palace / Bournemouth standard squad. We're doing well to create the chances. Credit Dyche and hard-working players for that.

Hopefully Harrison and Danjuma (and Beto) start to make a proper contribution soon.

The first the Wolves player got the ball but that didn't make any difference. The 2nd was a clear dive going away from goal that the ref got right but in slow motion the merest touch is enough to give a penalty. The game has gone mad with the VAR.

Their first goal, you could not write it any better for the Premier League.

Our best move so far this season is Andy Burnham on Sky News talking absolute sense!

I think we need 9 points minimum from that run of games.

No, he probably didn‘t lose us the game but it did not help matters. The wonder goal made it even worse after only 3 minutes and increased the pressure on the players who had the 10-point deduction at the back of their Minds. Match of the Day 2 was awful and not for the first time as well.

As Winston said: "Never give in, never, never, Never!"

Who knows how Garnacho might have reacted if Young had got somewhere near between him and the cross. For his booking, he could have positioned himself to jockey for again Garnacho to either stand with the ball or push it into the corner or the byline to try to get a cross in.

Similarly for the penalty, if Young had reacted quickly enough, he could have positioned himself nearer the ball so that Martial would have had to go through him to get at the ball but instead just stood still and stuck a foot out.

Something similar happened for the own-goal off his thigh when his positioning was not the best and should have been nearer to help Harrison block the cross.

At some stage the Manager has to see that his mate is past it and give Patterson a prolonged run.

Everton have had 124 shots at home in the Premier League this season – only Liverpool (129) have had more.

Conversely, Everton have scored just 5 goals at home in the Premier League this season – the joint-fewest in the league (with Burnley).

5 points… maybe 6.

Sam 222 Exactly. Again shows why a goalscorer is needed and not more crap midfielders.

Dear Mr Dyche

It beggars belief that you put Young at right back every game.

You clearly don't like Patterson. Godfrey too. (The latter being completely devoid of skill and confidence.)

What is there to prove, and to whom, by playing Young??? It's not like we can buy anyone, even if we had a board.

Garner played for England U20-somethings at right-back and was shit hot. Let's face it, he isn't setting no fires in midfield. Put him back there.

Also. please please please, tell the players to mark the opposite third of our box when the opponents have the ball on the other flank. Tell McNeil or Harrison to get their expensive arses back in there, bust a gut, and mark the opposition midfield, or at least challenge!!! It's like watching school kids. Mesmerized to the lure of the ball.

They know we don't set foot in that area and have scored numerous times and will continue to do so.

Once Man Utd got to the by-line on our left, Young took up a textbook position for a right-back. The cross actually wasn't that great. It was behind Garnacho and swinging out of our box. Unfortunately, the execution was staggering. If the kid tries that another thousand times he will not connect so perfectly.

Sometimes you have to hold your hands up. Garnacho bought a ticket and hit the jackpot. It was one of the most brilliant, acrobatic strikes most of us would have seen.

The full-back who could or would have prevented that goal hasn't been born yet.

The ball was behind him and he had a 'let's give it a go' moment. All the pundits were saying it was the best overhead kick they have seen. I very much doubt he will ever do it again.

That said, I would rather Young was warming the bench. He adds nothing to the team play and Patterson is better going forward.

There was nothing anyone could have done about the goal. If we'd have somehow scored one like it, we'd have been talking about it for years.

It went in right in front of me and I knew it was was soon as it left his foot. At the time, the stewards weren't being too strict so I was stood on the stairs near the middle. As soon as he hit it, I said "Goal."

And with my Everton glasses off, what a goal it was.

Well, that's what I reckon the pundits would have said had it been an Everton player pulling off a spectacular goal like that.

I think Pele was a bit of a Dickhead, how did he get captured in South America and taken to Germany?

The real mystery relates to Ardiles - where is he meant to be from? Maybe we'd have found out he was spying for the Germans if they'd ever made a sequel.

And if Garnacho was not Young's responsibility, then who do you suggest should have made life difficult for him, or are you suggesting that our defending should only be zonal?

Spiteful and immature, even if he was getting abuse from the fans in that corner. I'll respond in kind and hope he never scores again (unless, of course, we sign him one day).