Everton 0 - 3 Manchester United

Everton return to action for the first time since the Premier League deducted 10 points as Manchester United come to a Goodison Park that is expected to be a bearpit of defiance in front of the Sky cameras.

Amadou Onana is still suffering from a calf injury that keeps him out while Seamus Coleman finally returns to the first-team bench almost 7 months after he left the Leicester City pitch on a stretcher with a serious knee injury, while Beto is 'unavailable'. 

There was a phenomenal welcome of booing accompanying fans around the entire ground holding up 'Premier League – Corrupt' cards in response to the draconian imposition of a 10-point deduction by their 'independent commission 9 days ago.

The visitors kicked off and did well to keep possession despite decent pressing from the Everton players. But after just 2 minutes Garnacho produced a moment of magic from a deep Rashford cross to destroy Everton hearts, an acrobatic wonder that flashed past Pickford into the Gwladys Street net. 

It was 5 minutes before Everton got any worthwhile possession, but Harrison was denied a free-kick. Everton tried to take more control but Man Utd were still having a lot more of the ball. Rashford got forward, his shot flicking off Mykolenko's boot for a corner that Shaw smashed just over the bar. 

Everton finally had some possession but could not get forward and resorted to crosses that were easily defended, then Gana gave the ball away. Young gave away a foul on Garnacho, and Man Utd then played keep-ball.

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Everton's build-up was painfully slow, Harrision's eventual cross easily blocked. Gana's cross then went over everyone, with Calvert-Lewin in completely the wrong position and Everton then had to defend, with a dreadfully late lunge on Garnacho from Young for his requisite early yellow card. 

Everton repelled the free-kick but struggled to build anything approaching an attack, Harrison losing the ball. Young and Gana going for the same ball as McTominay cruised into the fray for a Blues free-kick that was really, really poor. 

McTominay fouled Harrison and Doucoure demanded that he be booked... and so Doucoure himself was duly booked. What an absolute idiot! From the free-kick, Harrison's cross was blocked for a corner powered straight at Onana by an unchallenged Calvert-Lewin, who this time was in a perfect position to score but completely failed to apply the required directional control on his header. 

Calvert-Lewin then powered a snapshot toward the corner of goal, that Onana got across brilliantly to parry back into play, enabling McNeil to almost score but his shot lacked power and Mainoo was able to clear off the line. Docuocore then mishit his shot just wide. McNeil got forward but could not beat Mainoo's block, the subsequent corner repelled. 

More testing times came for the Everton defence before they could get the ball forward again, Pickford on a free-kick from the centre-spot that came to nothing. Calvert-Lewin ran at the retreating Man Utd defence but his shot was blocked; however, a cross from Young was headed over by Calvert-Lewin leaping high.

Calvert-Lewin ran at them again with the ball but this time it went through to  Gana, who did what Gana so often does in front of goal: he skied it.

Another deep free-kick found McNeil who was fouled but the ref played advantage to everyone's annoyance, and the Blues walked off at half-time a little unlucky not to have converted at least one of the chances they had created through sheer hard work. 

Despite Everton restarting, it was Man Utd who attacked with more drive, McTominay firing over. But Fernandes fouled Gana, however, any impetus was lost. Eventually they worked the ball to Harrison but his cross was straight to Onana.

Mykolenko was blocked by Maguire but nothing given. Martial was booked for a dive but on replay it was clear that Young had put his foot into the player's path. The VAR invited the ref to take another look at it, and it was very clear that the ref had made a mistake. He rescinded the yellow card and gave Man Utd a penalty, Young escaping a second yellow card for his infraction. From the spot, Rashford lashed it high into the net.

Everton did their best to respond, Gana powered a tremendous curving strike on target but Onana tracked it all and palmed it over with a superb save. There were then screams for an Everton penalty after Tarkowski was held in the penalty area. Nothing given. The ball fell to Mykolenko but he fired straight across goal. 

The visitors got forward and won a corner, they reworked it around but were kept away from goal before winning another corner. Everton cleared but it came right back for another corner and this time Garnacho from a similar position, lashed his shot sky high. 

Everton broke with a good move but Harrison's cross was behind Calvert-Lewin who could not convert. Young got a great cross in but Lindelof was able to head it behind for an Everton corner that Onana grasped at the second attempt. Harrison's cross fell for Doucoure but his strike was easily blocked for a corner that was not worked well at all, ending up back with Pickford.

Rashford got forward and crossed well for Garnacho who tried a wild strike at the far post that hit the side netting. In the next attack, Martial walked in their third to end the game as a contest, not by any means the result Everton needed on such a crucial weekend. 

Mykolenlo got into the area on Danjuma's excellent pass and smacked his shot off the bottom of the United crossbar and out with Onana well beaten for once. Calvert-Lewin should have fought for a good ball into the Man Utd area but Maguire was easily able to shepherd him away.  

Garner tried a wild shot that flew wildly away from goal, and Chermiti replaced Calvert-Lewin. Pellistri got a chance to shoot but Pickford saved it comfortably. Rashford tried to play in Fernandes for the 4th but Tarkowski had other ideas, clearing it behind. 

At the other end, Chermiti fired in a decent shot that flew just past the post as the team had to play out a pointless 6 added minutes in front of a rapidly emptying and thoroughly depressed Goodison Park, as another Everton chance from a late corner was cleared off the line. 

Everton: Pickford, Young [Y:21'] (72' Patterson), Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Mykolenko, Gana [Y:90+2'], Garner, Doucoure [Y:30'] (90' Dobbin), Harrison, McNeil (72' Danjuma), Calvert-Lewin (82' Chermiti).

Subs not Used: Virginia, Keane, Godfrey, Coleman, Hunt.

Manchester United: Onana, Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw (76' Wan-Bissaka), McTominay, Mainoo (72' Amrabat), Garnacho (72' Pellestri), Fernandes, Rashford, Martial (85' Mejbri). 

Subs not Used: Bayindir, Varane, Reguilon, Van de Beek, Hugill.

Reader Comments (228)

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George Cumiskey
1 Posted 26/11/2023 at 15:41:29
Where's Beto?
Michael Kenrick
2 Posted 26/11/2023 at 15:49:35
Nothing about Beto on the usually informative Echo site. (I'm trying to be nice!)
Paul Jones
3 Posted 26/11/2023 at 15:51:54
He's in the top right hand corner, just behind Wally.

And the Arteta money.

Alan J Thompson
4 Posted 26/11/2023 at 15:55:58
I normally wouldn't sit up this late and would catch a replay in the morning before knowing the score but this is one match that I just can't miss.

Lonergan and Beto still on international duty or was one of them supposed to give the other a lift to training but lost the address?

Si Cooper
5 Posted 26/11/2023 at 16:19:11
Come on you Blues!!!

A historic day in the making. Let's hope it is momentous for all the right reasons.

I'm with those who feel ‘Corrupt' is not the best tagline for our campaign. I just think it will make supporters from other clubs less keen to get behind us as there is no evidence that the Premier League hierarchy have acted according to some other clubs' wishes.

Greedy, self-serving, divorced from the ‘spirit' of the game – all these things are obvious… but not quite the same as 'corrupt'. Servile, weak, supine, cowardly, tin-pot, hollow are all fairly accurate but I would have gone for ‘money-grubbing'.

It's all in the balance but relegation would be hard to survive. Hopefully the fight back gets off to the best start today. UTFT!!!

Alan J Thompson
6 Posted 26/11/2023 at 16:24:34
Could be back to Plan A as Optus seem to have stuffed it up again and am only getting a black screen.
Ernie Baywood
7 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:07:14
Ashley Young really is intolerably shite. I still don't see the point in selecting his experience.
David Cooper
8 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:17:59
We are looking rather light and not winning too many 50/50 balls. McNeil and Harrison the main culprits.
Michael Lynch
9 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:27:22
Ref is shocking. Almost as bad as our finishing.
Si Cooper
10 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:28:19
Is that the only thing you've taken from 35 minutes of play Ernie? Ashley Young only did one thing wrong that I could see though the yellow is a big problem for him.

What is the main issue is that effort and fight (from players and supporters) won't necessarily get us out of the hole that the Premier League have dropped us in. A world-class finish has upped the pressure on us and that added pressure is being ramped up the longer we go without scoring.

Man Utd aren't a good side but they've seemingly acquired the knack of winning despite that. We have often played better than the results would indicate.

Praying the ‘luck' is with us today. Need to avoid any more yellows and sucker-punch goals first off and then hope we can convert a couple of the chances we should be able to generate.


Alan J Thompson
11 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:32:34
First of the funny games that Sky/Optus must be playing. I first try to log on to the game but I'm met with a black screen so, after a few minutes, I log out and then log back in.

This time I get several minutes of ads so after 5 minutes log out and go back in to again get a black screen… then about 9 seconds before kick-off, the picture and sound come through but there is a buzzing similar to a vacuum cleaner to drown out the crowd. So if anything happened then I don't know about it.

Anyway, on to the game. That was a great goal from the kid but again Young was playing at defending, nowhere near his man and no intention of trying to get near the ball.

We were missing Onana making himself available for the ball and McNeil and Garner were nowhere to be found. After 30 minutes we picked up and could/should have scored three or four, Calvert-Lewin powder-puffin headers and Gana still can't shoot despite having a good game.

Finally, with biased refereeing like this, no wonder United are a team full of divers as they get almost everything they fall over for.

Neil Tyrrell
12 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:35:13
We get awarded a free kick, United player kicks the ball away, and Doucoure gets a yellow for complaining about it. The "advantage" incident was ridiculous too.

Spectre of Wayne Rooney over their goal, might end up being goal of the season.

First half overall reminded me of the early season "xG" matches; we have to bury some of those chances. COYB

Ernie Baywood
13 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:47:06
Of course not Si, but he's they only real selection we have to make.

He's done far more than one thing wrong. All he does is shovel the ball up the line. Every time.

Simon Dalzell
14 Posted 26/11/2023 at 17:48:20
Same old story. I'm done with Dyche.

Young is the new Holgate. Calamity. Should not be on the Pitch to start, and at least taken off when he got the reckless, unnecessary yellow card.

pete hughes
15 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:05:56
3-0 now, appalling home record will relegate us?
Bill Gall
16 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:12:40
Well I guess that those of us who thought the players would give as much fight as the supporters were mistaken, they have reverted to their previous home form.

The manager still can't realize what a hindrance Ashley Young is.

Danny Baily
17 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:26:08
Bill 16, plenty of fight on show from us. Just not our day.
Ajay Gopal
18 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:27:02
Bill (16), I disagree. I thought that this was one of the best performances by Everton this season.

One wonder goal, 1 penalty and yes, 1 poor goal to concede. But those were the only 3 chances that Man Utd had. But, otherwise I thought we played some slick football.

We should have taken at least 2 of three golden chances in the 1st half - Calvert-Lewin, Doucoure and Gueye. 2nd half, Onana pulled off a great save from Gana and Mykolenko was unlucky to hit the crossbar.

If we play like that most of the remaining matches, we will be okay.

Christine Foster
19 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:27:12
Immensely disappointing. Gone back to bed.

Ashley Young is a liability. Doesn't matter how fit he is, how experienced he is, he has crossed the line and lost the edge needed to play in the Premier League.

Yet again a turning point, surely his last start for us?

Michael Lynch
20 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:32:02
We were decent today but didn't take our chances, while Man Utd took theirs with aplomb.

Deflating for sure, but our biggest battle is going to be the appeal against the points deduction.

We're going to be in the Bottom 3 for a while yet, and we just have to hope that Luton don't get too far away from us. Keep playing like this and we will pick up points, I'm just not sure if we can pick up enough to make up for the ridiculous 10-point disadvantage.

John Charles
21 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:33:13
Well when is a bear pit not a bear pit? When we lose with a whimper. It will be our lack of goal-scoring that sends us down if we go.

I thought Tarkowski was good, Garner okay… worst 2 wingers in the league and a centre forward who scored 1 out of 5 good chances.

From my seat in the Park End, it was a stonewall penalty.

On to Forest where we need to get something before all the passion fritters away.

Si Cooper
22 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:34:03
Bill, that's a ridiculous statement. Have you ever played top level sport? It's very rarely decided simply on level of fight.

Adrenaline is obviously something people don't get. The right level and it's a boost but too much and control disappears.

I saw plenty of good ‘attitude' but too much anxiety, snatching at chances plus stupid attempts to win an unwinnable ball. The first goal made the task one of expending too much effort just to get back to parity.

The 10-point deduction is crippling, the sense of injustice might fuel the fans but isn't exactly what the players need. Difficult fixtures in a row, some injuries probably inevitable and the likelihood of suspensions to come mean the task ahead of the players is immense.

Sur Jo
23 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:35:00
What's happened to McNeil?
Neil Lawson
24 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:36:37
Out of misery you have to find the positives and be objective.

The positives. Branthwaite again. Mykolenko impressing also. Being objective. Young must never start again. Seamus is fit so he and Patterson have to share the duties.

Most importantly. Don't be so horribly wasteful and put the ball in the net. I think that is the aim of the game. It was, as I forecast yesterday, one of those games that somehow you knew was coming. It is going to be very stressful from here on in.

Rick Tarleton
25 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:36:57
Man Utd showed how to score: three shots (one miraculous), three goals. We had double the shots and rarely actually threatened. We have to score in periods when we are in charge of the game.

Spirited and gutsy, but calmness in front of goal is a skill, not an attitude.

Dave Lynch
26 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:37:32
Imo... we where what we are. Ineffective against half-decent teams, Maguire had Calvert-Lewin in his pocket all day.

We don't attack with any flair or pace and there were gaping holes in the defence.

Colin Glassar
27 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:38:19
Only caught the second half. Only consolation is, unlike the FSW and Lampard teams this one didn't fold and hide.

I think the international breaks always affect our rhythm and maybe it will be our away form which will save us.

Alan J Thompson
28 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:38:24
Again had trouble logging for the 2nd half and had this black screen again until the picture came on 45 seconds into the half but at least the vacuum cleaner was switched off.

Not much to add other than VAR decided the slight touch was more convincing than the dive but really what more can Young do to get dropped altogether, he's past it.

Didn't see any signs of any protest other than some red cards that you couldn't pick out what they were representing but then the crowd behind the goal was rarely shown.

I'm sorry but McNeil and Garner showed nothing and I thought Gana did as well if not better than most except for his usual shooting. If some think Onana isn't upto much then perhaps today showed how he is missed but we really do need a clinical striker, Calvert-Lewin just seems to go through the motions and Doucoure seems to have started missing most of his chances.

Back to the appeal then, eh?

Craig Walker
29 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:38:31
I thought we played well today and that scoreline flatters them. We just couldn't score. You just knew those fluffed chances in the first half would cost us.

Ashley Young is a liability, I'm afraid. He's cost us again because that mistake for the penalty killed the game.

On another day, we equalise and get something. They're a better team than people think and are on a good run. Today is disappointing but, if we play like that against the teams in the bottom half, then we'll be okay.

Not sure where Beto was but Calvert-Lewin needs genuine competition. Harrison needs to offer more end-product and not just work-rate. I thought Tarkowski, Branthwaite and Gueye were good today.

Si Cooper
30 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:38:49
Rick, much more than double – nearly three times according to the stats.
Andy Crooks
31 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:42:14
We really need to get the points reduction reduced because these players, try as they might, won't do it. We need to be 10 points better than three teams. We aren't.

Manchester United were a remarkable price today because form and ability were ignored in the belief that passion would suffice.

We are Everton, fight on, stick together, up and at them, keep the faith, three teams worse, etc, etc. Meaningless platitudes, sadly.

We need to win the appeal and get some points back. We need our lawyers to show some backbone because our players are frightened and fragile.

John Charles
32 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:43:23
What's really worrying is this is the worst Man Utd side in recent – 20-year – history.

Surely Onana and Gana in midfield. Garner slows everything down and his first impulse is always to go backward.

Ian Edwards
33 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:44:44
Gueye didn't protect the defence and continually bailed out of his defensive midfield role. Young should have been subbed at half-time.

The home form is a real worry and, if Dyche doesn't sort it quickly, then we are going down. I think the -10 points is too much of a hurdle to overcome.

Pat Kelly
34 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:45:03
It can get worse. This is Everton, it will.

There's no quality on or off the pitch. Dyche gives slow learners a bad name.

Thelwell signs bad names. But he has a master plan, apparently.

Kevin Molloy
35 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:45:50
This 'sporting advantage' we were kindly awarded is certainly playing hard to get at the moment.
Christy Ring
36 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:47:04
Young is a liability, we need Seamus back next week. He should have been subbed at half-time, that's two games he's cost us, and another early booking.

The penalty finished us, and that's down to Dyche. McNeill, Young, Doucour! and Harrison were poor, and I thought Danjuma was shocking.

I hope Seamus and Onana are fit for Forest, and Dyche must pull the finger out, and bin Young. Massive game next Saturday.

Mark Ryan
37 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:47:37
If Ashley Young continues to be the Liverpool All-comers hokey-cokey champion, he will single-handedly (or perhaps single-footedly) take us into the Championship.

I hope he spends more time on the bench.

Kunal Desai
38 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:47:51
Didn't get to see the game but, by all accounts, we let a very poor Man Utd side dominate us. Really, really poor today.

For every win in us, there is another defeat… which is why, unless we get big investment, we will remain a Bottom 6 side.

As for Dyche, it's a difficult one but I think the club needs to review his position at the end of the season. Tactics and subs are baffling.

Tom Bowers
39 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:47:59
So much for coming out on a mission.

An absolute awful start which basically set the tone.

We all know there are weaknesses in this team that are easily exposed by talented teams like Man Utd but unfortunately Dyche has to go with the hand he has been dealt fully, which will result in defeats like this against this kind of opposition with big money behind them.

It's going to be a big struggle but won't get easier when you concede so early, even on your own ground.

Barry Rathbone
40 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:49:53
These aren't the games that will define the season.

Man Utd are in that monied group forming the higher echelon of the Premier League that walk all over us 9 times out of 10.

We are dross hoping our level of dross outguns the dross of 3 others – well in, Moshiri.

Danny Baily
41 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:51:33
Pat 34, don't talk rubbish. There's plenty of quality in the squad. The promoted teams can't draw on the likes of Danjuma or Gueye when injuries hit. Or Beto. Or Patterson.

Let's not lose our heads because the form side in the Premier League and Champions League side beat us; we actually did okay today. On another day ,the scoreline might have been different.

And it was great to see us keep going, even at three-down.

Si Cooper
42 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:52:45
Some really harsh judgements on some of the players I'm reading – including Ashley Young.

I'm not happy he is starting ahead of Patterson but we didn't lose that game due to his lack of contribution. Okay, the penalty was a bad choice but plenty of penalties happen that way and few defenders don't dangle a leg every now and then.

The problem was how far United advanced in that move without any sort of challenge. No foot in by Young and I think Martial is through and scores anyway.

We have a thin squad. Dyche has to wring every ounce out of everyone. Young put in some crosses that probably deserved someone making more of them.

Paul Ferry
43 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:53:23
One of the most disappointing things about today for me was that I tried and tried but hardly ever felt any "defiant wrath" in the second half and not a huge amount after 10 minutes to be honest.

It's so easy for me to say this sitting here 4,000 miles away, but it saddened me to see those thousands of empty seats with 5 minutes to go. It seems like we were given the opportunity to make some sort of emphatic statement today, but we didn't.

Perhaps the occasion was too big?

We regroup, move on, stay strong, get something at Forest.

Ed Prytherch
44 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:56:35
The team performance was not that bad and Man Utd were flattered by the scoreline.

I wouldn't complain too much about the ref as he could easily have sent off Young when he awarded the penalty.

Chermiti looked sharper than Calvert-Lewin in his brief cameo.

Pat Kelly
45 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:58:43
Danny, we did okay today? Seriously! I hope we don't do as well again. Maybe losing 0-3 is okay on some planet.

And I wouldn't rely on Danjuma or Beto to turn up any time soon. Or ever.

Ian Edwards
46 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:59:10
The Coaching team are all Burnley and add to that on the pitch we have Tarkowski and McNeil from Burnley. Harrison from Leeds. Young from Villa's reserves, Garner from Man Utd's reserves, Gueye from PSG's reserves. The bench are all journeymen such as Keane, Danjuma, Godfrey, Patterson and a very old Coleman.

If you buy reserves and Championship players, then you end up in the Championship. We've circled the drain for two seasons and now we have had a load of bleach to send us on our way.

Trevor Bailey
47 Posted 26/11/2023 at 18:59:43

I really really hope so.

Definition of a liability.

Si Cooper
48 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:00:02
“Didn't get to see the game but by all accounts we let a very poor Man Utd side dominate us. Really really poor today.”

Don't know who your sources are, Kunal, but that's just not a good representation of the game, especially the first half which really should have been about 4-1 to us. Their goal was an out-of-the-blue, unstoppable, world-class finish that was pretty much the sum of their threat first half.

Game realistically ended after their second but that could be said to have been against the general run of play up to that point.

Also Kunal, big investment isn't allowed, that is how we ran foul of the PSR. Spending is limited by genuine income, a wealthy owner putting their money in directly doesn't count as income.

Jerome Shields
49 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:01:38
Thought it was a typical after the international break performance. Expecting this team to rise to the occasion was a tall order.

Young starting and not subbed at half-time, even with a yellow card, was as expected, and an injured Beto mean't that Calvert-Lewin failed to lead the line. Typical pressure arrived as a result in the first 15 minutes of the second half.

Jamie Crowley
50 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:02:35
We didn't play poorly.

Si @42 I couldn't disagree more about Young.

His penalty completely changed the complexion of the game. It was a stupid challenge and once again he's completely screwed the team in a big game. Remember the Liverpool game?

Young is a mess in big games. He always makes mistakes of real consequence. He should have been sent off today as well.

He is a serious and very real weak link in a team full of guys giving 100%. He is a liability, and my only criticism of Dyche is why in the fuck does he start this guy in front of Patterson?

I don't like him in Blue, never have, and hope he doesn't play another game for Everton. His contribution today turned the game on its head – in the polar opposite direction of what we needed and wanted.

Robert Tressell
51 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:03:43
This is a tough season and this result is a real kick in the nuts at a low moment for us.

We've been done by possibly the best overhead kick I've ever seen. Better than Rooney or Bale. Extraordinary bit of skill and so early on, it's swung the game massively in Man Utd's favour.

Even then we probably should have been 2-1 up by the time they score the penalty. And 2-2 would have looked about right on balance. Very fine margins.

So the result is shit but we will play at that level and at least draw more often than not, you would hope.

Personally, I think we're in much better shape to stay up now than we were when Dyche took over. There's a lot of games to play, the squad is improving albeit slowly and we're definitely better than at least 3 other teams.

It's just not the "fuck you" fairytale we were all hoping for.

Michael Lynch
52 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:04:57
Yes, we definitely weren't dominated – Man Utd simply had more quality at the top end of the pitch.

And, although it didn't really affect the result, that was among the most incompetent reffing displays I've seen this season. Utterly useless and inconsistent.

Jim Bennings
53 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:04:57
I've said all season, if there's one thing that will take us down it will be the form at home.

We lose most games let's be honest, that's five losses already with Newcastle, Chelsea, Man City and Villa the next four in the league.

It will be the away form that has to accumulate enough points to stay in the league.

Jack Convery
54 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:05:02
Too much nervous energy expended before kick-off by all concerned, methinks.

Dyche will need to start thinking up a Plan B. Plan A may well work away from home but it ain't working at Goodison. Also, make subs that change the pattern of play, not more of the same, unless we are winning of course.

We need world-class lawyers to get that 10-point deduction turned into a fine, as playing with it is a weight too much for these players.

Dave Williams
55 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:05:22
And so the moaners start!

The opposition were 6th, without the points deduction we were 15th. A wonder goal so early was always going to be a big blow and the VAR really summed up our week. This was not a bad defeat but a game where our luck was right out at both ends of the pitch.

We pressed very well, had a number of chances and weren't scared to have a go. The crowd went quiet which was disappointing if not understandable. Our wingers are not playing very well and I can't see what Danjuma has that we were so keen to have!

This was never going to be easy and we will look so much better with Seamus and Amadou in the team. We need to dig in, work hard and don't let a loss to a Big 6 team affect us. There's a long way to go.

Mike Doyle
56 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:06:24
Seamus back next weekend?
Christy Ring
57 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:07:31
Ian, we know you don't like Gueye, but give it a rest, he's definitely not the worst player in the squad.
Jamie Crowley
58 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:07:39
Robert @51,

I think that's the best goal I've ever seen. What was it? A 20-yard cross?

To hit that ball overhead, leaving your feet as it speeds through the air so quickly is simply ridiculous.

Everyone in my house actually yelled out, it was that good.

Andy Crooks
59 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:11:48
I reckon our squad put up a great fight to get us some points recently. Never mind their part in the humiliations by Luton, Wolves and Fulham. Imagine their horror to have those hard fought points taken away.

Any Evertonians among them would have taken this as a spur to seek revenge. Any of the hired hands (and we have a few) will see it as an excuse. Our team have an excuse to relegate us.

Today was utterly predictable. Down to Dyche now. He was poor today.

David Vaughan
60 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:12:55
I'm sorry, boys (players). 40,000 fans. £40,000 raised to fight injustice. 40,000 voices (and reasons?) to call out the Premier League.

And on the pitch, the one place we have charge of, you let us down.

Yes, I'm (just about) keeping faith, as are so many on here and elsewhere. But are you? Are they?

Onward. In Dyche we (have to) trust. #UTFT #EFC

ps: I've just cancelled my Sky subscription as per another thread.

Tony Everan
61 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:15:12
That goal on 2 minutes was like getting struck by lightning, it was the million-to-one goal.

Still, we got ourselves into the game and we're the better team in the first half overall. It was very disappointing that we didn't convert at least one of those very good chances that fell to Doucoure, Calvert-Lewin and Gana. The game really hinged on us grabbing an equaliser from one of those.

The penalty was the killer, Young was dangling his leg and it was asking for it. Martial knew the script and down he went. I would prefer the inexperienced Patterson to be given a run in the team, but the manager mustn't be seeing enough in training? Seamus back could solve the problem anyway, we've missed the captain.

I thought we played not far from our usual standard today but they were clinical and we were not. With the point deduction, even if it's reduced, we will have to address that fast.

Pat Kelly
62 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:15:47
I’ve just rewatched the game. And on reflection, I have to admit we could easily have won it had we scored 4 goals.
Dave Ganley
63 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:16:15
Shithouse football from a shithouse manager.

All this talk of tapping into the crowd, bearpit etc — has nobody told Dyche that the players need to engage the crowd?

We sat back and just let them come at us. They scored almost immediately, albeit with a worldy. When we finally came back into it towards the back end of the 1st half, it was because we pressed and harried them into mistakes and had numerous chances.

When we needed to start the 2nd half in the same vein, what did we do? Sat back and invited them onto us again.

Imo, a dodgy penalty but we invite that kind of pressure. Man Utd are a poor team and we let them toy with us. The lack of pressing and effort from the players just killed the crowd.

As I say, awful football tactics from Dyche. Been the same all season. Just when we need a bit of momentum, we throw in a performance like that. Just cowardly from Dyche and the team. I can't believe where we're at now, no identity, shit manager and players whose default position is go backwards.

Dyche gave this up on 80 mins when he took Calvert-Lewin off. Harrison had a mare as did most of the midfield yet most stayed on the pitch.

So deflated after that, first time in a long time I've left the match early. Dyche makes Moyes look like a tactical genius. How low can we go?

Kenwright and Moshiri between them have killed this Club. I've been going to the game since the mid-70s and seen a lot of shite but nothing as gutless as this shower. It's soul-destroying.

Trevor Bailey
64 Posted 26/11/2023 at 2023/11/26 : 19:16:17

Right, I have to say first off I'm as angry and bewildered as the next Everton fan. But, for all those complaining, for all those saying we'll be fine, just take a sneaky peak at the table as it stands.

We are deep into the poop, and think that lots of fans, indeed lots on ToffeeWeb, need to get real.

We are in grave danger of going down. Forget the "We are a big club" crap. We aren't and outside of a historical context, haven't been for a generation. All the club can do is take each game at a time and hope things go their way.

This weekend it didn't happen. Next weekend it might or might not. No one knows, so please can the posters who claim to be olde worlde soothsayers give it a rest.

People on the Live Forum today highly critical of the performance must have watched a different game from me. I thought the effort was there and having someone with the ability to put the ball in the net would have made a massive difference. But we don't, not on a regular basis anyway.

This great club has no divine right to be in the Premier League. Those who do think so are, in my opinion, wrong. Certainly Dyche needs to bench Young, but the team are making chances; making and taking are two very different things.

I can't accept the blind negativity from some. Yes, things are bad right now and will very likely become a lot worse. Pragmatism and an understanding of the present predicament would go a long way towards the sanity of some people.

We might survive or we might not. I've had to ask myself how I would feel if my Everton were to be relegated. Sad, angry at Moshiri and his idiocy (new stadium apart). But there's also a part of me that wouldn't really mind. Having got over the original shock, it might not turn out to be so bad.

I thought we might've got something today but never expected to. Decades of watching Everton have taught me never to expect anything.

So, I am grateful and happy that they scraped survival the last two seasons… Do I think they can for a third time, sadly no. And it's only my opinion, and they're like arseholes aren't they? Yes, I know I've set myself up for a kicking with that last sentence, so fire at will.

Terry Farrell
65 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:16:44
Si, you are kidding me. He was on a tightrope after getting another yellow card early doors. He did the same against Diaz.

Every player he marks is quicker than him so he relies on blocking him off or diving in. He has cost a point at Anfield. 2 against Brighton (not because of the deflection but because his legs had gone and he didn't get closer to Mitoma).

The odd decent cross does not anywhere near justify his place in the starting 11. I am crapping myself when he's anywhere near the team. He's been a good player but way past it now.

Anyone know why Beto wasnt on the bench?

Si Cooper
66 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:17:53
“His penalty completely changed the complexion of the game.”

No it didn’t Jamie, it just set the seal on what had been an intensely frustrating game up to that point. Martial would have scored then anyway if he hadn’t been brought down.

Why should he have been sent off? For the challenge that gave the penalty away? No way was that a bookable offence.

Did you honestly think we were just about to equalise / surge ahead in the game at any point in the second half?

Their early goal was my worst nightmare and the game panned out exactly as I expected. As I posted earlier some people really don’t seem to understand the effects of adrenaline. We simply didn’t need to have to chase the game because we are really not good at that sort of thing. Nine times out of ten this squad will concede rather than equalise when having the extra pressure of having to come from behind.

It is actually embarrassing for the whole ‘resistance’ movement that supporters left early today.

Kevin Edward
67 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:21:02
It wasn't to be today.

Sean Dyche beginning to sound like Walter Smith: Lost 3-0 but it's a ‘pretty decent performance'.

Must do better and get out of the Bottom 3 as soon as possible. If we go into February or March lower than 14th, then it might be curtains.

Regardless of the horrors to come from the Premier League and their commission, the fight on the pitch must continue, but we have to force it.

We can't just sit back and wait for other teams to have an off day.

Just win the ‘winnable' games please.

Jonathan Oppenheimer
68 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:21:43
As much as we all wanted this one more than anything, I’m proud of the effort today. Aside from the wonder strike, they didn’t have any good chances all first half, and we had at least 4-5 of them. Obviously you have to finish those chances, much like earlier in the season, but if we get just one it’s an entirely different match. And the match is entirely different without the silly penalty, which was harsh but inevitable with how slow Young is. Without the pen, I think we come back to grab a point.

I’m rarely one to praise the team when we’ve just lost 3-0, but aside from Ashley Young — who is becoming our new Michael Keane, with an error in him every other match — we weren’t that bad. Even Gana today was pretty good, with his best ever strike from distance cancelled out by his big miss earlier on. Once Dyche finally comes around and starts playing Patterson, now that we have enough sample size to show that he couldn’t be any worse at right back, we’ll be fine barring any injuries.

We obviously can’t go on a run without picking up points, but I still think we’re good enough to survive. This brutal run in December will tell us a lot. The doomsayers may say otherwise, and we have no divine right to stay up, but just like the last 2 years, we will find a way, especially because we’re better this year.

Pat Kelly
69 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:25:19

“I can't accept the blind negativity from some.

I thought we might've got something today but never expected to. Decades of watching Everton have taught me never to expect anything.”

That blind negativity is hard to see sometimes.

Kim Vivian
70 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:26:39
I thought the pink placards were a good stand out before the game but I would have preferred to see this tag line:



of Corruption

Mal van Schaick
71 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:30:08
Lawyers should add this result as a complaint to the PL, as causing an adverse affect to our performance, based upon the fact that we have been wronged by the deduction of points, until we have had our appeal heard.
Si Cooper
72 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:32:14
Terry (65), if you read all that I’ve posted you will see that I too would prefer that Young didn’t start, but I still think people are blowing his couple of mistakes in this game out of all proportion.
Martial would have scored anyway so the penalty didn’t cost us anything in any real sense.
He might be at risk of it but he didn’t actually get sent off today.
As for contribution he didn’t get ‘exposed’ any more often than anyone else today and a couple of players were much more anonymous.
Bill Gall
73 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:36:34
If you play well, you should get a result, as playing well means you are defending well and scoring, we done neither.
A game is over 90 min so there will be times when you play well, it is what you do during this time that defines a game. We have just lost another home game where we should be getting at least a draw.
Regardless of the points reduction we still had only 1 player who has been playing regularly over the last number of games missing.
Why the manager insists on A.Young as full back I don't know, he may have experience but his lack of speed negates that and means he needs the winger to provide coverage.

We need every point we can get, so showing training videos where the players are zipping the ball around to each other without looking doesn't cut it.

To day a wonder goal may have been a body blow, but there was still lots of time to turn it around, and here's hoping we can get over today"s result and look forward to the next game and everyone learns from it

Pat Kelly
74 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:38:48
Who came up with the idea of little pink placards ? And what was written on them in protest ? “Down with this sort of thing “ ?

Trevor Bailey
75 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:39:05
Pat,fair cop.It was a bit of a rant never thought that comment through
Shaun McGough
76 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:39:13
young danjouna patterson harrison those positions and attitude/qaulity in games if we go down will be our undoing fans superb dyche (hands tied)is right manager, behind scenes yet again why we should worry with these players you can carry one player but this amount in a threadbare squad is crazy did anyone spot our 19 million pounds advantage
Terry Farrell
77 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:42:45
Si watch it again tarks has come across and he still has to beat Pickford. When you cant keep up with a younger player you lose your man and you commit more fouls. You cant turn back the clock. Take him out of the team and we will be better equipped to cope. Who knows Patterson may have been a lot closer to Garnacho on the first goal?
Pat Kelly
78 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:44:12
Trevor, there’s nothing like a good rant. I might give it a go sometime :0)
Ian Edwards
79 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:46:16
You can rightly blame Young as much as you want but if your DM goes AWOL from in front of the Defence and leaves a big hole then the chance will happen.
Paul Ferry
80 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:47:33
What exactly was that more than 40K spent on? Did the ineffectual plane swallow it all up? I didn't see a single "special"/costly protest banner in the ground? Weren't we told when we contributed that money would be spent on banners?

Genuine question: who put the red (red?) cards on all the seats? Was that something done by the club or from the 40K with the club's say so?

Oliver Molloy
81 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:49:24
Jamie @ 58,

Everyone at our house, all three of us roared out also when that went in but it was far from complimentary!

Something like "Holy fuck, for fuck sake – give us a fucking break - you lucky ., Pickford should have saved that - should never have allowed that cross ...dickheads, and so on.

Bottom line is if Calvert-Lewin was Harry Kane, we would have won that.

Dyche needs to drop Young, I said a month or so back he is too easily skinned with tricky wingers and becomes a liability – I would imagine Coleman will be in there once fit enough.
Was there a bearpit atmosphere?

So 5 points behind Luton, we must hope for a reduction in our points penalty, but nothing to worry about – eh!!

Will Mabon
82 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:52:25
Little difference in the scheme of things, but...

watch the slo-mo of the "penalty". Young is drawing his foot backwards, away, when Martial steers his foot outwards to find it. Cheating at high speed, again.

Ref was right first time and in a good position to see it.

Paul Ferry
83 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:53:10
"So five points behind Luton, we must hope for a reduction in our points penalty, but nothing to worry about - eh !!"

Not if we get 6 points chopped off, Oliver, which does not seem utterly improbable.

John Boswell
84 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:53:10
We all see things slightly differently, don't we? I am as disappointed as anyone about this result.

Going into the match, I was optimistic that we could grind out a result against this Man Utd team but the script was changed when they scored an incredible goal on 3 minutes. The same player tried to repeat the strike in the second half and missed by a country mile.

We created 4 good opportunities to grab an equaliser and get ahead before half-time time but with no luck. We are where we are and I believe that we are better than at least 3 teams by a margin exceeding the 10 points that we have been penalised.

Calvert Lewin is leading the attack as well as ever but he seemed isolated, with 2 red shirts marking him and a lack of a blue shirt within 5 metres of him to receive a layoff.

Onwards to Sheffield, COYB.

Pat Kelly
85 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:53:34
I understand there will be a protest against the lack of protest. The chant will be forty grand, forty grand, forty grand…

Unlike previous protests, this protest is player led. Contributions thru their GoFindMe page.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
86 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:53:47
A Ray of Sunshine

As many on here know, I look at the 38 fixtures and add the results from last year for fixtures yet to happen to those already completed.

Just updated the table - deducting Everton 10 points

Currently this is
20th Luton 21 points
19th Sheff Utd 28 points
18th Burnley 29 points
17th Everton 31 points

We can do this - and well done Mr Burnham for his letter.

Paul Ferry
87 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:54:03
Hope you haven't booked your train ticket yet John. It's Nottingham!
Si Cooper
88 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:54:50
“Once Dyche finally comes around and starts playing Patterson, now that we have enough sample size to show that he couldn’t be any worse at right back”

He needs to be better than not any worse (which he may well be) which would make him just as bad.

I’m sorry, but despite the rants Ashley Young did not cost us the game today. Sean Dyche’s tactics did not cost us the game. Not converting any of plenty of decent chances in the first half and United’s efficiency with theirs cost us the game.

Dave Ganley
89 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:55:06
Paul Ferry @80, there were 4 new banners in Gwladys Street, Park End had a banner also.

Nobody put the placards on the seats, they were handed out outside the ground.

I'm guessing Sky didn't do a close-up of the banners for fear of upsetting their mates at Premier League headquarters.

John Atkins
91 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:57:06
Too much hype today, honestly feared the worst. I wasn't comfortable with this frustration, it's put too much pressure on the players

We will be better when things calm down as on paper I still believe we are 10 points better than the Bottom 3

I'm glad this game is over

Let's get back to where we were a couple of weeks ago

The more important games for us are against the teams around us and bottom half, starting with Forest away next week

There are still 25 games to go. People on here reacting we are 5 points behind Luton with a handful of games to go

Get a grip, stay optimistic and move on to the next game.

Paul Ferry
92 Posted 26/11/2023 at 19:59:33
Thanks Dave (G), unless I read them wrong they did not specifically target the Premier League? Am I wrong?
Peter Hodgson
93 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:02:34
I haven't read all the posts on here before posting. I know I should have but the thought of reading more negative words prevented me from doing so. Sorry.

My own negative thoughts therefore are briefly as follows. The idea of the fans splurging however much on an aeroplane towing a banner, "corrupt" cards and various other banners, whilst in theory seemed to be a popular idea, it did nothing except highten tensions amongst all concerned which played against us on the pitch.

Man Utd were up for this match as much as we were, except that they didn't have as much as us on the outcome which, in the event, played into their hands. They got a fortunate, if superb, goal after only 3 minutes. Bad for us and good for them. They didn't really look back. A fortunate penalty and the game was over.

Please, no more banners etc prior to future games. By all means cheer the players on but let the games flow naturally and let's not put the players under any more pressure than they are under already. It isn't helpful or necessary.

We can get out of trouble but it is going to take a bit longer than some would have hoped for initially. The manager and the players know what is needed. Leave them to get on with it.

Bobby Mallon
94 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:04:12
Not one of the banners said "Premier League corrupt as fuck" – well, not the ones I saw.
Colin Malone
95 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:07:17
No Plan B.

I felt sorry for Calvert-Lewin. No one near him to help him out, just a headless chicken.

Bobby Mallon
96 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:09:10
Si Cooper,

I'm sorry but Dyche not taking Young off at half-time did cost us the game. The whole world and their dogs knew Young would fuck up… and he did.

John Boswell
97 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:13:21
Paul Ferry, cheers, you are a good soul. Thank you, Sat nav re calibrated :) COYB
Bobby Mallon
98 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:13:21
Si Cooper,

Once again. Martial would not have scored; he hit the ball too far in front, if you watch… and there was a defender there also.

Paul Ferry
99 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:13:33
That's what I thought I saw, Bobby. So, on the one hand, that dilutes Peter's point about heaping pressure on players but also makes me think that I thought that there would be protest banners. I thought that was the whole point.

There re always banners in the Gwladys Street at every match along the "We are Everton" etc lines. So our money paid for better banners rather than banners, if you see what I mean, if there was not a word of protest.

Paul Ferry
100 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:14:14
Give them a shout for me, John!
James Marshall
101 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:17:50
I for one am not entirely surprised about losing 3-0 to Man Utd. Apart from anything else, they're a better team than we are, and their form is good too, even though ours has been decent. We've been useless at home and all the hype around the place probably ended up being a negative.

Games like this won't define whether we stay in the Premier League anyway, and our goal difference is still way better than our relegation rivals. Luton won't pull away and I still think we're a better team than every team up to 10th.

The only thing that could derail us is us – by that, I mean the players' mentality taking a massive nosedive due to the points deduction. As an aside, I do also think we'll get at least some of the points back on appeal.

Nod to Garnacho as well – that was some goal, it has to be said.

Christy Ring
102 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:18:59
I know Dyche had Young at Watford, but enough is enough, he's a liability. And forget about sentiment, he's cost us points with his mistakes. His yellow card was a ridiculous lunge, he should have been gone at half-time.

I know the first goal was a super strike, but Young was nowhere near his marker, and shouldn't have been on for the trip, and the penalty finished the game. No point in bringing on Patterson after the horse has bolted.

Ian Edwards
103 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:20:33
The protests today were laudable and hopefully the punishment will be reduced.

However, we are in this position solely down to club mismanagement and deceit.

When we were charged in March, the club released a statement saying:

"The Club strongly contests the allegation of non-compliance and together with its team of independent experts is entirely confident that it remains compliant with all financial rules and regulations."

They went into the hearing and admitted guilt.

From the charge in March to the commission judgement in November, the club led fans to believe we were blameless.

Not only did the club break the rules but they lied to us about having done so.

Pete Neilson
104 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:20:33
Exactly, Bobby, same from my view in the Main Stand.

It seems those who think you appease a bully like the Premier League now think our players are like Goldilocks with her porridge, not too raucous an atmosphere but also for it not to be quiet as a library. Nonsense of course but fits the "don't upset the Premier League" narrative.

And yes, there were banners in the Gwaldys Street end. I thought the 1878s fund made it pretty clear not all the fund were being used in one go.

Personally I support them and their efforts. I imagine they'll appreciate any constructive criticism for future demonstrations. Their contact details are easily found.

Ian, and the penalty was only made up in August over 5 months after we'd been charged, and applied retrospectively. Based on a “principle” the Premier League board “consider reasonable”. Very carefully worded in their report and hopefully open to investigation.

Jamie Crowley
105 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:23:06
Oliver @ 81 -

I think my exact yell was, "Fuck off! Are you kidding me? Beautiful."

Whatcha gonna do? That goal was just tip your cap, I'm honored to have even seen it, I wish you'd have missed...

It was gorgeous.

Si Cooper
106 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:31:36
Bobby (96), back up your opinion with some ‘facts', like how Ashley Young was at fault for their first goal; Ashley Young missed all our decent chances to score; it wasn't poor defending by other players that led to Martial being played in when Young brought him down or he dived (seems to be debated by some) in the penalty area; Martial wouldn't have scored anyway if Ashley Young had just let him continue.

If you can't make those statements then what are you basing your opinion on?

I'm not saying Young should not have started or that the manager couldn't have subbed him at half-time (personally I would have supported both) but the actual facts are that he simply did not lose that game for us on his own. Any conjecture that we would have won or not lost if he'd not started or been subbed is just that and not actually supported by the way the game went.

The second goal killed us but that move would have ended in a goal for them instead of a penalty, independent of any part Young played.

Tommy Carter
107 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:32:33
@88 Si

Get real, Si. Young is consistently targeted as the weak link in our defence by every single Premier League opponent. Look at the vast majority of goals that we have conceded. They have emerged from whatever side he has been playing on.

Today, a wonder goal knocked the stuffing out of the game. It needn't have happened had Young positioned himself properly and formed some sort of defensive disruption to the player he should've been marking.

Besides the point he was well out of position, had dropped deepest and was keeping everyone on side, he stood statuesque and metres away from any opposing player as the goal went in.

People will say ‘there's nothing you can do about them'. Well there is, position properly as a natural full-back would and don't give players time or space to execute such a piece of skill. If he's there to stick his head on it, there isn't a goal to be scored and it's as simple as that.

Then he concedes the penalty. Honestly, Dyche can wipe his face all he wants in astonishment that things haven't worked out again, and he probably believes that we'd have beaten West Ham with Young in the team but he cannot see what is blatant and obvious – he was forced into our best back 4 against West Ham and it was the best performance we have put in since he's been here.

But he's too stubborn. He was absolutely insistent that his back 4 this season would be:

Coleman Tarkowski Keane Young

That's his dream back 4. And it's full of deficiency.

He was forced into the Keane change and he should have been convinced of the necessity now to bomb Young but he's sticking with it. And he will live and die by these decisions.

He is probably absolutely over the moon that we've been sanctioned 10 points as he will view it as a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Dave Ganley
108 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:32:44
Pretty sure there was a 'Corrupt' banner, a 'Dogs of War' banner, a big banner to the right of the Gwladys Street as you look at it had Premier League symbols on it but couldn't see what was written on it due to the cards being held up in Main Stand. So yeah, some Premier League protest banners.

As to the banners affecting the players, well that's just utter nonsense. Rubbish tactics and poor finishing put paid to any kind of resistance today.

Danny O’Neill
109 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:35:05
A lot to take in. I'll write tomorrow.

A close first half and we should have been level. We lost our way second half.

Their keeper was the Man of the Match.

They took their chances. We didn't.

Long trip home. Then get ready for the next one.

Anthony Dove
111 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:41:39
McNeil and Harrison are both desperately one-footed and too slow.

Can we have Gordon back please?

Si Cooper
112 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:42:46
Tommy Carter (107), you get real yourself!

I am only talking and posting about today's game and have explained why I don't think you could rationally say Young cost us the game today.

It is momentous bollocks to blame him for their first, just unspeakable bias against the player. No doubt you are a top-class full-back who never let any opposition have an attempt on goal? If you were, you are utterly unique.

Why not actually look at the point I've made on whether Martial would probably have scored anyway if he hadn't been tripped and then tell me why I'm so wrong?

Look forward to your objective reply.

Geoff Lambert
113 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:43:47
The game was lost by strikers who can't score and a certain midfielder that can't pass a ball 5 yards to his own teammate and is nearly as bad at hitting the target as our front two.

Pity Onana was injured and Seamus never got to start.

Ian Riley
114 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:44:42
Let the legal team do their job with the appeal.

The fans must not distract the players with protests. Today Man Utd took their chances. We looked nervous, distracted and gave them space in the wrong areas.

Next month's fixtures are probably the most important in our history. All must come together. Points will save us, not protests.

Brendan McLaughlin
115 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:45:20
Tommy #107,

There are probably quite a few contenders for the "Most Ridiculous Post on ToffeeWeb Ever". Tony A, would probably argue that a few of mine should feature.

But surely this is the undisputed world title unifying post:

"He is probably absolutely over the moon that we've been sanctioned 10 points as he will view it as a 'Get out of jail free' card."

Feck you, Tommy... I coulda been a contender!

Paul Ferry
116 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:45:59
Perhaps Dave (G) the players were reading the banners when Garnacho scored or when Martial cut into the box for the penalty!

We might as well give up now if stands full of placards and half-a-dozen banners put the players off.

Geoff Lambert
117 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:46:46

Young was on a yellow and would have been better to let him go past and give the keeper a chance to save it rather than make his usual rash attempt in and around the box.

We were lucky not to go down to 10 men.

Paul Ferry
118 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:48:15
Thanks for bringing us up to speed with your travel progress, Danny. We were all asking how you were doing.
Peter Mills
119 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:50:38
Congratulations to Garnacho on one of the greatest goals ever seen at Goodison.

Under the way the game is now (and Ashley Young is vastly experienced, so should know this) I suppose it was a penalty. But it shouldn't be.

As at Crystal Palace, the forward was not really fouled, he played for it. It's simulation but, because “there is contact”, it's not called out as such.

We should have scored at least 2 in the first half, but our finishing was poor, so we didn't deserve the goals.

We are a below average Premier League team, with a very slender squad, that has been dealt a heavy blow. Today is not a killer, but it's going to be a tough old season, we will have to scrap like hell for every point.

Terry Farrell
120 Posted 26/11/2023 at 20:53:55
Si read my response to you saying martial would have scored and you comment. Also it is true had he been picking up his man the first goal may not have happened. He left him. Look at Myko on the other side he works hard to stay close to his man and keeps goal side. He kept salah and saka quiet. Young would still be suspended from marking those 2!
Rob Dolby
121 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:02:10
The game had a similar pattern to the Fulham and Wolves games only we were playing against higher quality opposition.

We played well but the lack of quality told.

A goal of the season contender, a soft pen given away by our 39 year old right back and a quality pass from their £50m midfielder to their £35m striker who can only score against us.

Solid performances from all besides an out of sorts McNeil and the helpless Young. Gana my motm.

Jonathan Haddock
122 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:03:19
Terribly disappointing performance in so many ways, with players who we expect much more from hardly having a kick. Young simply shouldn’t be on the pitch. Despite that we were actually and unbelievably still the better team. We simply have to perform better at home though, our fans are so deflated and punch drunk. We desperately need a performance at home to lift us. Let’s hope Newcastle get a the shafting that they deserve. COYB
Brian Williams
123 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:08:30
I got some dirty looks from people around me because sometimes you just have to applaud a goal like their first, and I did. They're still a shower of c***s though.
Tony Abrahams
124 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:09:24
I thought it was a sad day for many reasons, but maybe it wasn’t helped by the waning addiction to football.

An absolute world class goal showed the good side of the game and when I saw the kid shaping his body to try and connect with the cross, I genuinely thought to myself “what the fuck are you doing lad” so credit to the kid, who is a little aggressive live-wire, although I’m absolutely certain he would have been booked if he had played in a blue shirt today?

It makes me sad when I think about what football has now become. A high speed game with decisions being made by slow motion replays, and I feel it won’t be long before rather than getting involved about arguing if it was a penalty or not, I’d sooner not watch a sport, that has simply become littered by cheating.

Contentious has definitely become a very key word to describe VAR, because VAR has definitely made football a much more contentious and less enjoyable sport imho, and it is definitely taking away a lot of the raw emotion that once made the sport feel so special to me.

I think United play in a very continental style, and started the game displaying a lot of craft, movement and quality, and had definitely done their homework on those over covering Everton fullbacks, but once they scored and then Everton settled down, I thought the blues definitely started creating the better chances.

We lack two things, imo, that extra little bit of quality/calmness required in the danger area’s, and that extra little bit of pace that enables a player to become a little bit more calm, instead of rushing or getting excited when good chances come their way?

We are getting better, but I also felt like we were a relic of the club we used to be at times today, and it hurt me deeply watching our supporters protesting, because even though we were right to do this, it has still been brought on by ineptness, and by nepotism, and a new era cannot come soon enough for some of the most passionate fans in the country, who I believe deserve so much better.

I live in hope, so I’m hoping for better owners who have a plan to take us forward, and make us competitive once again🤞

Chris Leyland
125 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:16:59
Tommy - I think it’s harsh to blame You for the wonder goal as it would not have happened if our team on our left hand side had done their jobs properly and stopped the ball coming into the box in the first place. The ease with which they got in behind us to create the opportunity for the wonder goal was worrying. I’m not blaming Myko as he had to go to Rashford but who was tracking the runner? The answer - no one.
Ray Roche
126 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:18:28
Terry @120

Terry, we play far too narrow, the first goal came when a long diagonal ball reached an unmarked Rashford (or Shaw) who then crossed. Mykolenko was, as ever, two close to the CB’s. Not his fault, these are Dyche’s tactics. Every week the same long diagonal ball catches us out. Infuriating.

Si Cooper
127 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:18:56
Geoff, that’s an ‘if’ and ‘maybe’ argument. What can’t be said 100 percent is that we wouldn’t have gone 2 behind at that point irrespective of Young’s involvement which is what others were saying. It was a gilt edged opportunity for Martial, not one where he was never going to threaten the goal which is where anyone making a challenge is a ‘liability’.

Terry, didn’t see your reply but still disagree anyway. Plenty of defenders lose attackers if they stop advancing / actually retreat. 99 times out of a hundred that cross doesn’t lead directly to a unstoppable able shot on goal.

On the penalty incident I think the ball is beating Tarks so he could only affect things by fouling Martial himself (who has the momentum in the right direction), and Martial expertly beat the keeper for the third and is apparently reknowned for that. I also think it is in the build up that players other than Young should have done more and plenty of defenders dangle a leg and then don’t retract it in time in those situations.

Like I’ve stated, I’m not particularly wanting Young on the pitch myself but I’m objective enough to view everything in isolation that should be taken in isolation.

Derek Knox
128 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:20:38
I have eventually got round to commenting on the 'game', I know we all see things differently, and my take is this. Too many of our players under-performed as if the result was not that important, and while not wanting to single players out, feel I have to.

Pickford, performed well, but was beaten by a wonder goal, then a penalty and Martial's well taken goal. Young, experienced (?) should not have been on in place of the over-looked again Patterson. Tarks and Branthwaite, virtually faultless as with Myko.

Midfield didn't perform well at all, McNeil and Harrison, way below their best. Doucoure, again below his best and often not in the game. DCL led the line well but should have taken his chances better.

Yet again, Dyche leaves substitutes far too late to have any impact, against an under-performing United side, who were made to look better than they were.

Referee, another who looked out of his depth and biased towards United. Are there any decent Officials in the Premier League ? I am struggling to imagine us getting enough points to escape this lowly (imposed) position we are in, if home games especially, are treated like this and those hitherto the point deduction !

I just wish the players shared the optimism and determination of the Fans ! Another show of solidarity that many Teams would crave for !

Ged Simpson
129 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:21:00
Tony 124: saddens me but totally agree with your post. It is v sad but, regardless of today and 10 pts issue, it is a game where players are trained to cheat and it is all set up for tedious media folk to yell "oh my god!"

I never used to miss a game online.

Haven't watched one for a long time and have some koppite mates who are the same and they are up there (as ever!)

Mike Doyle
130 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:29:13
Brian 123] Anyone who appreciates football should applaud a goal like that. Strikes like that don’t come along too often. I recall a screamer of volley Alan Shearer scored against us which also had me applauding.

Tony 124] Ben “the red” Kent (Snr) made a similar point about VAR on Radio Merseyside - specifically that the spontaneous joy of celebrating a goal is becoming removed as we all wait to see if VAR can conjour up a reason to disallow it.

Laurie Hartley
131 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:30:55
Disappointed but not surprised. It is going to be a long battle.

Paul 83 - I see it differently. I think it is highly unlikely we will get a reduction. Can you imagine the uproar if Luton stayed 5 points clear of us on remaining results and were relegated by 1 point.

Time for reality to set in fellas. We have to do this all on our own.

Tommy Carter
132 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:36:58
Si come on, it wasn’t a goal scored from the position any of the other 10 players should’ve been covering.

Not did any of the other ten players concede the penalty.

Just before he was hooked, we had a corner and some attacking impetus. It was played back to him and he lofted a ball about 50 metres into the air and ruined any chance of attack.

These are small things that most supporters may not notice.

Likewise his amazing ‘block’ in the Derby a few minutes before he was dismissed was abject abysmal positioning and am action that need never have taken place had he positioned well enough to negate the attacking impetus.

I don’t claim to be some kind of amazing full back nor do I need to to know that:

Premier league footballers starting games at 38 years old are the absolute exception rather than the rule for a reason

Full back is a specialised position

He is not a full back. He’s an attacking midfielder that has been converted to a full back because his legs have gone

He is being repeatedly and incessantly targeted as a weak link in our play by every single opponent in a league where fine margins and one chance will win you a game.

One of few people who cannot see that he is an ultimate liability, tragically, is the manager

Peter Mills
133 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:40:18
Tony#124, despite everything I hate about VAR, I had to smile at your post.

When I watch my grandsons’ games, I always video their attacks on my phone (with the consent of both managers). Yesterday, there was a contentious penalty for our team, I showed it to the referee after the match to demonstrate what a wise decision he had made! As requested prior to the game, I shared it last night with the opposition manager.

Out of nowhere in the Main Stand today he collared me, and told me how dreadful a decision it was! We had a good laugh about it, and I suspect that’s what has got wrong with it all - it’s a game of footy, a beautiful sport, one that can hinge on the finest of margins, where opponents can respect each other, despite getting upset at times. And have a laugh.

I don’t think you’ll ever fall out of love with football, only the perversion of it that we see at “the top level”.

Ernie Baywood
134 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:47:55
I can't defend Young's leg dangling for the penalty. It's poor. But that's not really my issue with him. My issue is that he's not good defensively (speed and reactions have gone) and he repeatedly just shovels the ball up the line. It's pointless, it almost always leads the ball being won by the defending team, and it's just a cowardly way to relieve yourself of pressure. He'll never make a mistake on the ball, because he never tries to do anything with it.

Maybe that's what experience teaches you rather than Patterson actually having a go and getting criticised when things don't come off.

I'm not sure what Coleman will have left but we'll need to see. It's ridiculous that he's even in the equation and that's as much testament to the shambles our club is, as it is to the high standards of the man himself.

Otherwise I didn't doubt the effort and that was enough to cause them plenty of problems. Quality does tell though.

I thought Gueye did well, as long as you keep him away from the goals. Garner has been a bit of a let down for me - there's quality there but he's really struggling to get involved on the ball.

McNeil really hasn't hit his personal heights of last season, and Harrison gets a run purely because he's the only right winger at the club. He's incredibly frustrating - have a touch and cross the ball! He always seems to need one more touch. Mind you the usually even more frustrating Danjuma showed a bit off the bench and might be an option.

Thought DCL had an off day. But remained a handful.

In reality there's not much we can change. Dyche seems now to at least understand that Onana is a starter over Gueye, Branthwaite is a starter over Keane, Garner can't play wide. At some point he'll figure out that Young shouldn't be in the team. And maybe that the world doesn't need to revolve around Doucoure.

Si Cooper
135 Posted 26/11/2023 at 21:52:26
Tommy (132), I don’t disagree with your first 2 paragraphs just the suggestion that those incidents were assignable to any great ineptitude / any of our other options for right back definitely would have done better / ensured we weren’t beaten today.
You can’t simply ignore all that our other players failed to do successfully today and heap it on Young’s / Dyche’s head. That just isn’t a reasonable assessment of the whole game.
It is a team sport. Team sport games are very rarely decided by only one player’s performance / underperformance. Win as a team, lose as a team.
Derek Thomas
136 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:01:19
Glad I didn't get up in the middle of the night now, so I'll watch the whole thing after breakfast.

After being all fired up we are brought down to earth after 2 mins.

Removing the angry blue specs and switching to realistic mode, I have to admit that this result could've happened with the 10pts.

Claw the points back One Game at a Time - starting next week.

Now to watch it.

Bobby Mallon
137 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:02:12
Si 106

I never he was at fault for the 1st goal. It was just a blinding goal brilliantly taken. The second was a combination of young and Dyche fault. Young is not good enough and was on a yellow that should really have been a second yellow just before half time with a rash tackle on a United player. Everyone new he should have been subbed except Dyche. Lo and behold he gives a pen away.

On the pen. Watch martials first touch he knocks it to far in front snd Pickford or the defender to his side would easily have intercepted it. There is my explanation

Ian Edwards
138 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:04:24
I really don't get the fan club on here for Gueye. He is supposed to stand in front of the back four as DM and protect them. Not charging off like a headless chicken overlapping down the wing. Had he been stood in front of our Central Defence we don't concede goals two and three.

Dyche should either show him some videos of Kante or Makelele or just bin him off.

Tony Abrahams
139 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:05:15
Thanks Peter, and when I put my serious football head on, I would love to be given the job of exposing how the beautiful game is at times being ruined by so many cynical cheats!

My youngest son was playing today, and when he ran and got the ball to take a throw-in, he suddenly booted the ball away when the ref told him he had given the throw-in to the other team. The ref called him over, and when my son started walking off the pitch, I was thinking to myself, that’s a little bit harsh, but I was soon nodding my head in agreement when my son came back with the ball.

Footballers need to learn to have respect for each other once again and suddenly players might stop cheating the fucking life out of the opposition and concentrate instead on trying to make the game beautiful, once again 🙏

Anthony Dwyer
140 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:06:04
Si it's hard to see it a different way imo, Young massively let us down and it's not the first time.
Unfortunately Dyche is to blame, he's hanging Young out to dry when he's clearly struggling.
At half time I couldn't velive he sent the poor man back out, he had an absolute mare, needed to be pulled for his own sake.
Coleman on the bench may not be fit, Patterson may not be trustworthy to Dyche, and Godfrey along with Keane are both not the greatest footballers, but that said its only to replace a poor performer, not Cafu ffs.
Dyche set the team up well, the players let him down by not taking 5 huge chances first half but when you need a manager to come through with game changing decisions, Dyche lack almost every time.
Dale Self
141 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:11:29
United scoring early allowed them to sit back and so some of our attack was permitted. That said we created more and better chances. While the quality comment is fair, Onana made two saves that were superhuman. Had Gana’s outside the boot shot gone in to even the score we would have been in good contention for three points.

I am disappointed with some of the other attempts, Duke going wide when it looked like he had time was most disappointing. On the other hand we have opportunities and will convert eventually. We actually had a decent first half minus the disappointing misses and that was with Gana in middle. We may have given up goals anyway but had we gone even we were comfortable in defence for the most part.

John Atkins
142 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:15:48
Sat here as miserable as fuck tonight dwelling on what could have been today and then all panic set when I realised it could take us another 7 games or so if we’re lucky to get these 10 points back, it really is a nightmare

Today’s game was massive and such a blow, even a draw psychologically would have given us encouragement

Absolutely gutted

Si Cooper
143 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:27:46
Bobby (137) - you said Young ‘cost us the game’ when he conceded the penalty.

That means you are simply ignoring the fact we were already one nil down and had failed to convert any of our plentiful chances.

To me that is not a balanced view of the game overall.

You also can’t have ‘he should have been sent off’ because in reality he wasn’t sent off.

We also managed to concede another goal and not score when he was subbed.

So that is one goal conceded due to him versus 2 others (that no reasonable person would blame him individually for) plus over 20 missed opportunities to score, and you reckon that adds up to ‘blame one player for the result’?

Brendan McLaughlin
144 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:29:20
John #142

But there are a lot more than seven games left.


Jonathan Oppenheimer
145 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:42:26
Si (135) and elsewhere, I don’t think anyone would disagree with you that our team as a whole needs to be better, most notably in terms of finishing, but it’s odd that you continue to get worked up over what everyone else can see, that Young should not be starting in the Premier League as a fullback. And I stand by my comment that if Patterson is no worse, then it makes sense to play the man 18 years younger to get him experience. Regardless of how you spin it, Young has proven himself to not just be too slow, but to make rash decisions to lunge in when he should know he’s too slow and that doing so will lead to penalties and cautions. And then once he gets his inevitable yellow 15-30 minutes in, he has to adjust how he plays the rest of the match as he gets repeatedly targeted. And for what it’s worth, I agree with those who have stated that had he not dangled his foot on Martial, the ball would’ve been easily scooped up by Pickford.
Dave Abrahams
146 Posted 26/11/2023 at 22:58:15
Disappointed with the result, United scored three goals, we didn’t score any although we had enough decent chances to do so.

Three or four poor performances from our eleven also contributed to the result, Gana gets some stick on here for his performance today but he was among the best for me along with Tarkowski, Branthwaite and our left back.

Regarding the penalty, they showed it on the big screens, which was unusual, and I thought Young was trying to pull away from Martial who looked to dive to me as did the referee who changed his mind after loooking at it a good few times.

The crowd became an anti climax after that really outstanding first United goal and maybe they had worn themselves out after a very long afternoon campaigning and cheering themselves hoarse before the game had even begun.

Another day and another fight will carry on next week and the week after until the end of the season but I think many of us are sick of the way football is run these days and my very strong addiction to the game has waned considerably these last few years and not much of the way I feel about is because of Everton’s lack of success and poor performances, more the corruptness which is so evident in all parts of the game.

Paul Ferry
147 Posted 26/11/2023 at 23:04:02
Ian E, what did #138 actually add to the conversation? Yawn. We all know what you think about Gueye. You say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, many times on the same thread. It's tedious and there's a touch of the psychotic about it.

The answer, of course, is that #138 added zilch to the conversation and you did not even mention the. match once.

I'll try this again. I'll ask you a direct question that just needs a simple direct answer. Can you give me the names of half-a-dozen posters on here who might be said to belong to this Gueye "fan club".

I've read "on here" but perhaps you could reassure us with concrete information about this "fan club". I mean you are well known for providing cast-iron information and for never ducking reasonable questions.

Bill Hawker
148 Posted 26/11/2023 at 23:07:51
Worst United team I've seen in some time and we still couldn't get it done. Back to missing chances and putting ourselves in a hole.

Dyche's rationale for continuing to select Young has certainly been obliterated at this point. Patterson and Coleman must be in contention at this point.

Brent Stephens
149 Posted 26/11/2023 at 23:21:09
Dave #146, I think I'm more in the camp that Young stuck his foot in towards the line of The MU player's run rather than the usual cheating the other way. But apart from that, I agree with all your other points. Some poor individual performances (notwithstanding Branthwaite yet again standing head and shouders above the rest). The anticlimax in the crowd after an electric build-up to the game(that brilliant goal did for us). And, yes, the corruptness in the game; and I'd add the passion that VAR has stripped out of the game.
Si Cooper
150 Posted 26/11/2023 at 00:00:10
Jonathan (145) “it’s odd that you continue to get worked up over what everyone else can see, that Young should not be starting in the Premier League as a fullback.”
Sorry, but nowhere have I said that Young should be starting. I just strongly disagree that it was him starting that ‘cost us the game’ which is what others are posting.
I too would prefer Patterson but on the basis that I think he would be better overall not merely ‘no worse than’.
However, much as I would prefer Patterson I honestly don’t think Patterson would necessarily have done any better either for the first goal or for their penalty. That’s not a slight on Patterson just my opinion that plenty of full backs wouldn’t have done any better than Young did on those 2 particular occasions.
I’m not advocating Young but I’m not going to support crucifying him either.
Jamie Crowley
151 Posted 27/11/2023 at 00:15:54
The disagreement is simply whether or not the Young penalty cost us the game.

It's two opinions.

No where has Si "backed" Young or been some Young fan boy. He's been very clear about that. He simply doesn't see the PK as the turning point in the game or why we lost the game. Most of us beg to differ.

And Si, I'd say "crucifying" is a bit strong. Young's a human being, so good luck to him in life. But representing Everton on the pitch he's gawd-awful in my opinion, and has definably made some terrible plays. Whether those misjudgments cost us points or not is up for debate. But c'mon man, the dude simply can't play for us any longer, he's a massive liability.

Personally, coupling in the fact I never wanted him signed, and detested his diving antics with other clubs prior to joining Everton, I've never like him [as a footballer] and in fact detested the way he played, flopped, and conducted himself on the pitch. He drove me nuts. Might be a "Jamie problem" but that's just the way I see it.

Andy Connor
152 Posted 27/11/2023 at 00:31:09
Just to keep the media pressure up - did anyone watch MOTD2?

In our first MOTD since an historic points deduction, there was ZERO - repeat, zero - discussion of the deduction in any shape or form from the panel. Nothing. Match discussion & move on. Can you imagine if this had been one of the Cartel 6?

The only highlight was Theo-Allardyce-Legend-Walcott suggeting we made Utd look like City. The chipmunk twat. The level of analysis on that show is beyond the pale.

Also noticed that they never showed the actual content of those 40k signs we all held up. Not a single zoom-in / close-up, that'd show the word 'Corrupt'.

Some obviously subtle but important editorial decisions made here. How do we effectively call it out? FFS I love the BBC, I'm not one of these left-wing/right-wing 'the BBC has been taken over' delusionals, but christ, this was obvious. FFS...

Neil Tyrrell
153 Posted 27/11/2023 at 00:32:31
Our inability to put chances away (yet again) is what cost us the game.

But Young shouldn't be starting, and even though he did start, should have been subbed off after his yellow card.

Mark Andrews
156 Posted 27/11/2023 at 01:41:50
We looked like a team totally overwhelmed by the situation. The 'we're hard done by' narrative will do us no favours so I see no point in dwelling on it, get on with the football and see what the appeal delivers because outside of the Merseyside bubble, few care.
Feelings never trump facts, regardless of how aggrieved we feel. Fact is we're dreadful at home, our finishing is poor and Utd, though far from fluent, manage to keep winning. No ammount of willing it into the net matters.
We're a poor team who lack the ability to take the fight to the opposition. We're a team built to defend, soak up pressure and counter. Both wingers need bench time, they're completely ineffective and lacking in form. How Young retains his place is beyond me. I'd rather see Godfrey in that position, on Godfrey isn't very good.

We need to stop licking our wounds over injustices and concentrate on grinding some results out.

Jonathan Oppenheimer
157 Posted 27/11/2023 at 02:06:13
Si 145, my apologies for not stating my opinion clearly and misquoting you. It’s true that you have stated that you’re not defending him starting. I think, similar to what Jamie said, it’s just hard to see how anyone could defend him in any way, shape or form. And based on Patterson’s ability to, at least on occasion, play quick one-twos with teammates as he gets forward, I think he’s better than Young. I just made the not-worse-than argument to say that Dyche can no longer defend the decision any longer. In all fairness, Young did have the cross to DCL that he jumped too early for and headed over, but that doesn’t make up for his awful defensive play.

All of this is just particularly frustrating because as we’ve seen with dropping Gana, moving Garner to the middle, and playing Branthwaite over Keane, the fans on TW have seen clearly what Dyche only sees when he’s done being stubborn and possibly costing us points. This is now true of Young. And to think I’m still a fan of Dyche, because as with the match today, he has been getting the tactics mostly right, given what we’ve got — but today we couldn’t score and we gave up a bad penalty, while also being hit with the goal of the season. Those aren’t on Dyche. Picking Ashley Young certainly is.

Kieran Kinsella
158 Posted 27/11/2023 at 02:54:59
Si, Neil & Jonathan,

I've always been a fan of Young and thought he was an astute addition given our financial situation. Sadly, watching him now reminds me of the latter days of Bryan Robson.

Fergie kept playing him but his age and loss of pace became a huge liability and his last year was nothing but red cards and fouls conceded.

Due to our lack of depth, I think, in a more advanced position, that Young has something to offer. But as the last line of defence, sadly it appears we signed him a year too late.

For clarity, I'm not blaming him for today's defeat or any other but, based on what we've seen this season, we have better options at full-back. Even though they're not exactly great.

David Cooper
159 Posted 27/11/2023 at 03:49:10
We have now conceded 4 penalties, the most with West Ham this season none of which have been saved.

Young 1 foul v Man Utd
Keane 1 handball v Liverpool
Branthwaite 1 foul v Crystal Palace
Pickford 1 foul v Aston Villa

Can we draw any conclusions from these stats? I think they were all given by the VAR!

Bobby Mallon
160 Posted 27/11/2023 at 05:15:25
Si Cooper.

Yes, Young cost us the game, IMO. He stuck his leg out and gave a stupid penalty away. Martial had Pickford and a defender to beat.

This penalty would not have happened if the manager had done what all fans said he should do and that was take him off at half-time.

So, to clarify yours: Young cost us the game.

Tommy Carter
161 Posted 27/11/2023 at 06:40:25
@ Si,

I agree he shouldn't be ‘crucified'.

Just dropped from the team and replaced.

That's all.

Frank Fearns
162 Posted 27/11/2023 at 06:52:57
All too much. The day with the hype, planes, banners, media, placards etc etc… and a wonder goal flattened us.

We probably expected too much and yes, the lads on the pitch earn tons of money but they are only human and couldn't rise to the expectations of supporters.

Back to the drawing board and grinding out some results, methinks.

Mark Ryan
163 Posted 27/11/2023 at 06:54:47
I'm glad that's done and dusted and we can all focus on the next 3 points.

We need to make sure that was just a blip so we can start making footballing headlines instead of filling newspapers with stories of the Commission findings, the Premier League and all the other distractions.

If we are not careful, we will be dragged under. We need to stay positive, stay focused, and stop dangling a leg… UTFT's

Tony Abrahams
164 Posted 27/11/2023 at 07:50:46
When the ref went and had a look at the television to determine if it was a penalty, I bet you he only looked at the picture of Young pulling his leg away just a split second too late for Martial to make contact with it.

There is contact but the Everton player is definitely pulling his leg away from the United player at the time of contact, so does this make it a penalty kick?

Is it that the next phase of play doesn't matter anymore? Has football now adopted the same rules as basketball?

Martial's first touch was as good as to be expected considering the speed he was running at when he received the ball, and my opinion was that, because of this speed, he was always going to overrun the ball (which he did) but it seems this no longer matters?

Football by freeze-frame is definitely different than football played at breakneck speed.

Danny Baily
165 Posted 27/11/2023 at 07:55:00
Hit the nail on the head, Frank, the wonder goal, coming so early on, flattened us.

We executed our plan well, and in another day could have won. Fine margins.

3 points on the road next time out would go a long way to easing the tension.

Michael Lynch
166 Posted 27/11/2023 at 08:05:35
It's a poor Man Utd side, as others have said, but they have players with the capacity to score brilliant goals like their first and third.

On another day we'd have taken a point, but our finishing is more miss than hit and we simply don't have much raw talent in the team.

Dyche is doing a brilliant job with a weak squad of players, and the players are doing their best within their obvious limitations.

Tony Everan
167 Posted 27/11/2023 at 08:13:21
Tony, it's an an accurate take on the penalty incident.

Young's realised and pulled out and at pace Martial almost kicks Young's leg to go down. I think it's the initial misjudgement by Young that he just rectifies in time that causes it.

To be objective, if we were denied a penalty for the same incident at 1-0 down, there would be indignation.

Jack Convery
168 Posted 27/11/2023 at 08:30:16
The Premier League will be smiling as they enter their fiefdom this morning. Thanks to those pesky circumstances in life that belay all the plans you've made.

The news that El Tel had passed – may he RIP – dominated the day really.

Then you have Sly TV and the BBC making sure no-one could read the pink cards as 38,000 were held up and ignoring the loud booing of that anthem before kick-off.

Then a goal of the decade is scored by Man Utd inside 3 minutes. Everton and fans flattened.

It took 20 minutes for us and the team to clear our heads and we had a go. After half-time, a dodgy penalty awarded by the VAR after the ref booked Martial – he scored against us yet again – for diving.

Was it an obvious error by the ref? Not in my opinion but I am so convinced that the Premier League and the VAR are corrupt, that it would not surprise me if it had been talked about before kick-off:

"If Man Utd have a shout for a penalty, deny it and then we'll call you over to the TV, freeze the frame and you can give it."

We were crap in the 2nd half. I reckon too much nervous energy was wasted in the build-up to the game and it was too much for most of the players. I don't know what's happened with McNeill and Harrison but they are not worth their places in the team at the present time.

McNeill lost Dalot for the first goal by leaving Mykolenko on his own against Rashford and Dalot. Where was Young? Wasn't he supposed to mark Garnacho? Nobody was near him.

If Luton get to 30 points, we have to get to 40 to finish above them on goal difference or get that 10-point deduction rescinded. Sheffield Utd and Burnley are gone – aren't they… or is that wishful thinking ?

Can I ask, what happened to Beto yesterday. Was he injured or ill?

Come January, we will have to bring in at least 3 players (no doubt on loan or as a Bosman), a covering centre-back who can also play left left-back, as Young is finished in my opinion. A midfielder, preferably a defensive midfielder and a central midfielder as cover. The yellow cards we are getting are mounting up so the 1st XI need a stronger squad behind them – over to you, Mr Thelwell and good luck!

A message to Sean Dyche: We need a Plan B at home, though I'm sure you know that already – don't you?

Tony Everan
169 Posted 27/11/2023 at 08:51:20
Jack, Beto injured his knee so wasn’t available.
Jack Convery
170 Posted 27/11/2023 at 09:00:13
Cheers Tony @169.

He could have roughed up Maguire and Lindelof!

Nick Page
171 Posted 27/11/2023 at 09:08:26
Correct, Jack. The VAR was brought in to legitimise the cheating and cement the status quo.

Now, I'm pretty sure they aren't meeting before games to discuss “tactics” per se but it's known to all refs in the Premier League by their paymasters, which teams are “important” and which teams are just makeweights.

So, if the Sly 6 get a whiff of a penalty, they'll do everything they can to give it and vice versa. Which is why we see the controversy week after week. Most of these decisions are straightforward.

Young's yesterday was 60/40 and Martial went towards him with the intention of diving before there was any contact. The original decision, in real time, was correct. So the cheats won the day again.

Here's a question – why can't managers challenge a VAR decision during a game? They challenge them in other games…. And why can't we hear the VAR mob?

They don't want transparency as they don't want to risk their perceived golden pot, where they have created an anti-competitive structure, with the favoured clubs earning more prize money… sponsorship… Europe…. more money…. so can spend more money… .on better players…. and on and on.

If I was Everton, I'd take them to European Court of Arbitration and demand P&S Rules be scrapped for this very reason. Which is pretty obvious to anyone with a head.

Kim Vivian
172 Posted 27/11/2023 at 09:16:00
Andy Connor - 152.

Totally agree with all of that.

I was seething and coming up to boiling point listening to their post-match "analysis".

They did eventually get round to mentioning Everton but most of the "chat" seemed like inane waffle just to fill the allocated time slot.

And I'm in the same camp as you regarding the BBC.

Dave Abrahams
173 Posted 27/11/2023 at 09:44:33
Brent (149),

Fair enough. I watched the penalty at the game, saw a foul and a booking given and handed out, obviously couldn't hear what was said from the studio far away but saw the referee stop and listen and said the fella next to me “This going to VAR” and you know the rest.

Get a touch, the slightest one will do, go down and in today's game, in the words of ex-players now pundits, “He was entitled to go down there” which translated means he was entitled to cheat.

Being honest, if the player going down belongs to your team then you will accept cheating as being part of the game.

It still stinks whatever way you look at it and that's another reason fans are being turned away from the game they once couldn't get enough of.

Brian Harrison
174 Posted 27/11/2023 at 10:19:30
Obviously when you're at the game, emotions are running high and you maybe don't see everything, so I always wait till the following day before posting.

I think Everton were guilty again of not taking their chances and this isn't new – we failed to take our chances against Fulham, Wolves and Luton at home. I felt like we had more chances than Man Utd and more efforts on goal than them, so settled down to watch MotD in a calmer fashion than I was at the match to see if my impressions were correct.

And all the panel of Murphy, Jenas and Walcott talked about was the Garnacho wonder goal and the performance of Mainoo.

Now while the highlights clearly showed, after the first 15 minutes of the 1st half ,it was all Everton with Man Utd on the ropes. Calvert-Lewin had 2 great chances with headers from 6 yards out, Doucoure missed a good chance as did Gueye and McNeil also should have scored. Other than the goal, I can't remember another effort on goal by Man Utd.

While in the 2nd half, we weren't as good. Gueye had a great effort saved by Onana and Mykolenko hit the bar as well as other chances for Calvert-Lewin and Harrison that weren't converted.

Yet all this panel went on about was our lack of aggression, but didn't mention the amount of chances we created against the very few that Man Utd created. Seems nowadays whichever side wins the pundits create a narrative that suggests why they won and don't really give a proper assessment of the game.

I thought our fans were magnificent again and a massive thank you to the 1878 Originals who organised the signs for us to hold up and the fantastic banners that were on display. Again, no mention by the panel on the points deduction, if this had been a Top 6 club involved, there would have been much more time spent on discussing the deduction.

Getting back to the football side, I thought both Harrison and McNeil were not good enough. I think Harrison lacks quality, his deliveries into the box aren't good, and McNeil is just too inconsistent.

Yet another game where Young has shown he just isn't up to what we need from a full-back. I thought again Mykolenko was our best player, they moved Rashford onto the left as he was getting no joy against Mykolenko.

I thought Gueye did okay, but was disappointed again by James Garner. But the bottom line is you can't keep missing guilt-edged chances and expect to win games.

Rennie Smith
175 Posted 27/11/2023 at 10:55:50
I think they were right to point out the lack of aggression, Brian, if ever there was a time to feed off the atmosphere and get into them, then yesterday was the time to do it.

We were so passive in that first 15 minutes it was ridiculous. It was so easy for their back 4 (5 if you include the keeper who likes to get involved as much as possible).

I think that's coached, I don't think it was player instinct, which is really surprising from Dyche.

Christine Foster
176 Posted 27/11/2023 at 11:08:43
The erosion of talent in the team over the past 10 years has been staggering. What talent we had was sold off to appease others because of our management incompetence.

Now you can count what little quality we do have on one hand: Pickford, Branthwaite, Onana, Calvert-Lewin. I would love to count Dele as well, but I just can't. The rest are either too old or simply not good enough.

That's not to say they aren't trying either, Dyche is doing his best to make a working team out of them all, but individually only those 4 could be sold to better clubs.

I don't like Dyche's tactics, I confess, but he is trying to use what he has and to some extent its working, but there is no way in heaven with the players he has that he can just sit back and let the other side have total control.

We aren't good enough in midfield or defence to shut down quality players, end of. We need to stop teams playing football against us, close teams down.

Dyche can point to the chances all day long, but we need sufficient quality players to put them away. We have to close the gulf in class and be better. That includes tactics and players. I don't think Dyche can rely on his concession-of-play tactic anymore – we have to hunt in packs!

Danny O’Neill
177 Posted 27/11/2023 at 11:20:19
I don't blame Dyche, Christine.

I gave up blaming managers a few years back.

He, like his predecessors, are partly victim of the way the club has been run and the disastrous transfer policy of the past several years (if you can call it that).

During the Ancelotti reign, I kept saying, to those who would listen, "We need better players."

I know that's a simplistic view but, for too long, we've relied on a core of about 12 to 14 players trusted by the manager. Dyche is doing it now. Stood in the ground yesterday, many were calling for changes.

Now I agreed, but I did ask those around me, "What are the options?" There lies the problem.

I am convinced Manchester City could put two teams out that would both finish in the top four if that was possible.

Barry Rathbone
178 Posted 27/11/2023 at 11:46:42
I just don't get upset about Everton anymore… the die was cast in the mid-Moyes/Kenwright era.

The tacit agreement betwixt fans and the dynamic duo allowing respectability before the perils of unattainable ambition could only ever end one way – decline.

The brief reversal of the trend via Martinez served only to demonstrate the necessity of proper money and the right personnel but, without both, any success would be fleeting. Better players would be sold and adequate replacements unaffordable… and that is exactly how it's panned out.

I don't doubt we'll survive in the Premier League this season but the albatross of the new build along with serial chancers taking charge makes it just a matter of time before we go down. It's like watching a 3rd rate melodrama unfold in slow motion.

Brian Harrison
179 Posted 27/11/2023 at 11:47:31
Christine @176,

Sorry to disagree but I don't think we have any quality players, and that's why we have spent so long in the relegation area.

I was reminded that on Boxing Day 2020 Everton were 2nd in the Premier League… just let that sink in… 2nd… and yet, within months of Ancelotti departing, we were in the relegation zone with Benitez in charge.

Also, he took over the same squad as Ancelotti but within weeks he sold James and Digne – two of our most creative players, and unbelievably some of our fans booed Digne when he returned with Villa. When we should have applauded him for he said what most of us knew that Benitez didn't have a clue how to get the best out of this team.

We have since replaced Benitez with Lampard and Dyche but, like his two predecessors, Dyche has also had us fighting relegation since he has been here.

I would just like to mention our DOF of whom Dyche has said that, given how little he had to spend, Thelwell has done a brilliant job. Now whether Dyche actually believes that or not, doesn't anybody else think that the two players that Dyche obviously brought in Young and Harrison start every game when fit.

Yet what I consider Thelwell's buys, Beto and Chermiti, and his loan deal for Danjuma, get very few minutes. Hardly looks to me like two people on the same page.

David Hallwood
180 Posted 27/11/2023 at 12:05:36
I thought that Young was a Milner type signing; versatile, used in an emergency or coming on in the last 20 minutes to close a game out. But it's not his fault he keeps getting picked and how he wasn't substituted at half-time defies logic.

This is the difference between the really great coaches and the so-so ones, in the derby Klopp immediately reacts to the possibility that a player could be sent off and substitutes him. Young gets a yellow almost the same time as his derby yellow and Dyche does nothing.

I think everyone else has covered the game so I won't add to it, but as I don't mind sounding like a scratched record here goes:

Dyche needs to solve the problem of no overlapping backs; neither Young or Mykolenko do it on a consistent basis. At home, I think he should play 3 at the back with Mykolenko as the 3rd back with McNeil & Patterson as wing backs and Harrison Dom & Danjuma up top.

McNeil is playing like he played this time last season and is offering nothing going forward, while Danjuma doesn't look arsed. Being a starter may envigorate him and he's got a goal in him.

Harrison has been poor in the 2 to 3 games but I thought he looked better with Patterson running off him.

One of our best performances of the season was against Villa in the Carabou Cup and we looked really comfortable playing 2 at the back; even with the calamity magnet in the team.

Dave Lynch
181 Posted 27/11/2023 at 12:36:17
Christine is correct in her statement that we do have "some" Premier League talent in the squad.

Branthwaite, Calvert-Lewin, Pickford, Onana and the improving Mykolenko imo, the others are no more than average players who would struggle to make a Top 10 starting place. This, coupled with a manager who is not a "expansive and forward-thinking manager" leaves us in a rather precarious place.

His late substitutions yesterday were a joke, two strikers on in the last what...10 minutes? already 3 down and the game over.

You could argue he was giving them a run out, but for god's sake, he should have changed it and gone at them after the 2nd goal, we were dead and buried by then anyway.

Barry Hesketh
182 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:05:21
This must be one of the worst times to watch Everton at Goodison, we've only seen 1 win from 7 league games this season and a miserable 6 from 19 home matches last season. A total of seven victories, and 25 points gained on home soil from 26 games is appalling.

Every game seems to follow the same pattern, lose the first goal and it's unlikely that we will have the luck, ability etc to even gain a point; score the first goal and it, if being the only goal of the game,will likely see Everton win.

If that home form doesn't improve significantly, and soon, with or without the points deduction, we're in for a calamitous season. At least the lads and lasses who follow Everton away have seen some great results.

Those of us unable to travel away, and that's the majority of match-going fans, struggle to enjoy watching the rinse and repeat script which seems to haunt our team, regardless of who's in charge, regardless of which players are in the first team.

Even those hardy souls who traveled away from home, have had all their enjoyable results days, from this season, wiped out by the Premier League, at the stroke of a pen, as the 10-point deduction equates to exactly the number of points that Everton have won on the road this season.

Due to that ruling, Everton have only registered two league away wins that have actually counted in the last season and a bit.

We'll keep attending the games at Goodison, we'll continue to get behind the team as much as possible, but it's becoming very difficult to keep on hoping that we'll properly turn the corner to see better days.

Tom Bowers
183 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:05:37
Let's face it, guys, the club and the squad is in disarray with almost the same scenario, getting points taken away followed immediately by a home disappointment

The financial shenanigans may cost us dearly unless the team can get some consistency soon.

We have glaring weaknesses that talented teams like Man Utd will continue to exploit but Dyche has to start taking some blame when selecting Young to start and having the team ill-prepared mentally from the kick-off.

Defensively, they are full of holes with the midfielders not tracking back quick enough. Gana and Harrison are just not strong enough.

Dale Self
184 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:06:04
Look at the behind-the-goal angle, Martial runs outside a path to the ball in order to make contact. You can call it a penalty but it is a ratboy move being rewarded.

And on subs, we aren't going to use up legs chasing an unlikely result. I will wait for another discussion but it isn't as simple as being stubborn.

By the way, the team is improving. What happened was administrative not a collapse of the team's play. We are on the up even though the table was reset.

Colin Malone
185 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:08:12
I've said it a hundred times, Doucourie is not a Number 10.

In my opinion, Doucouré works his socks off but has not got the skill or guile to be in the Number 10 position.

I thought Chermiti did well in his short time on the pitch. Chermiti just behind Calvert-Lewin, instead of changing like for like, without a Plan B.

Dave Lynch
186 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:25:51
Look at the third goal, Dale, who was tracking the runner? This happened on several occasions during the match and a better team would've punished us further.

Defensively we are inept because of a weak midfield who don't track back and give the ball away too easily. Couple this with poor attacking play and it's a recipe for disaster.

Sam Hoare
187 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:26:30
Momentum is crucial in football and to concede a wondergoal minutes into the match and then a dubious penalty minutes after half-time is tough to recover from.

If we'd scored one of the many decent chances we had in the first half, it might have been very different.

Not our best performance with the forwards in particular playing beneath themselves but 0-3 did not feel a deserved result and we could have got a draw or more on another more clinical day.

I thought we missed Onana in the middle and his ability to move the ball quickly.

Rob Hooton
188 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:27:46
I thought we were very unlucky yesterday and got undone by awful finishing from our players and excellent finishing by our opponents (think Man Utd only had 3 shots on target?).

I was frustrated when I saw Young start the second half, he was very fortunate not to get a second booking on a couple of occasions and it was obvious he'd make a mistake. He's just not up to it, unfortunately. Dyche needs to see this!

0-3 does not reflect the match, in any way shape or form. We lack quality, particularly in the final third, and got punished for it yet again. Onwards and upwards.

Dale Self
189 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:46:41
Dave 186, I didn’t do the forensic analysis of Martial’s goal but we weren’t coming back from 0-2. That it was Martial suggests a CB should have picked him up as he got to the box.

I’m mostly on this criticism of Dyche that implies he doesn’t know what to do. This is patently absurd and I’m tempted to write it off as unserious. People need an outlet, fine, but that isn’t a serious discussion.

There are obvious constraints to the proposed solutions which again seem like cheap shots. Just switching it up when we go behind doesn’t address how disjointed our play became when we did switch up frequently. It seems the initial problem was somewhat solved but now any disappointment in final outcomes threatens that improvement in a desperate call for change.

It isn’t capitulation when you rationally save your resources for the most likely result. Our ‘plan A’ was blown up by a wonder goal. We then outplay a better team and can’t get it across the line from the 20 minute mark on. It sometimes doesn’t work out and the nerves from the larger situation likely played a factor in that. Saying Dyche failed somehow just looks like you’re trying to get back what was lost in our unbeaten streak.

Dave Lynch
190 Posted 27/11/2023 at 13:55:43

The last thing I want is for Dyche to fail but... he really does need to adapt to situations quicker than he does.

At 2-0 he should've gone all-out 4-4-2 imo, we just don't get enough bodies in the box and rely too much on a one-man striker who was as ineffective as I've seen against a notoriously nervous Maguire.

Dave Cashen
191 Posted 26/11/2023 at 14:16:01
Not James Tarkowski's greatest fan, but he did a really boss interview on Sky. Love his attitude and love what he said about the dressing room.

That said; He did look as flat-footed as PC Plod standing on a snooker table when Martial ghosted past him.

Painful loss, but we go again… and again… and again.

John Kavanagh
192 Posted 27/11/2023 at 14:32:14
Shit happens, but why does it always seem to happen for us?

Yesterday could not have gone better – for the Premier League. Starting with the death of Venables, RIP (who would have won trophies with the current English players available, unlike Southgate), the day only got worse as it went on.

Giving away an early goal, not a scruffy tap-in but a worldy that will be shown for years because so few come off. 99.99% of attempted bicycle kicks either go yards wide, miles over the bar, bounce feebly into the keeper's arms or are completely laughable air shots. Not against us though. The fault lies in giving a player so much time and space to try out a training ground showboater.

The officials and then the VAR combined to play their part, as they will in all of our remaining matches. In this scenario, we simply cannot afford to keep starting Young. Like Keane, he costs us points and continuously risks us being down to 10 vs 12.

The score flattered Man Utd and, but for poor finishing, a few great saves and a couple of goal-line clearances we, still could have won despite conceding three.

The result, the wonder goal, and the death of Venables enabled the media to largely avoid or reduce coverage of our protests. I imagine the biggest cheers yesterday will have been at Premier League HQ. It could not have gone better for them.

They will now feel free to proceed with the second phase of the plan to destroy Everton – the compensation 'settlement' designed to bankrupt us and/or force us into selling the spine of our team to the Sky 6 at knock-down prices in January that will guarantee our relegation. Win-win for the Premier League and the Sky 6. The timing of the hearing and the appeals/compensation process fits this scenario perfectly. They were planning all this over a year ago in my opinion, while our representatives naively fully co-operated.

But nonetheless we must continue to fight to the bitter end. Go down fighting if we must. The message to the rotten and corrupt Premier League must be 'We have not yet begun to fight'.

A gap has now opened up that cannot be allowed to widen. We simply have to get 3 points at Forest.

Rob Dolby
193 Posted 27/11/2023 at 15:28:11
Dave 173,

You're correct with what you say about "earning a free kick' or, as we call it, 'cheating'… but – rather than turn fans away – I think it is attracting fans.

We have 20k on a waiting list to be put through this punishment every week! I just don't understand it.

The game is almost a non-contact sport. The cheating and play-acting is awful but people love it.

If Calvert-Lewin would have got the penalty instead of Martial, lots on here would be saying it was a stone-wall penalty.

The freeze frame versus real time is also misconstruing and confusing refs. Yesterday's ref was in a perfect position and gave the correct decision. Then, all the arm chairs get shuffled around in Stockley Park and make him change his mind.

We just need to focus game by game and keep team spirit up.

I totally understood the substitutions of Calvert-Lewin and Doucoure; without either one, we are in trouble.

I understood why we brought Young in as Coleman was injured and the jury out for both young full-backs. Dyche now needs to 'rest' Young, He has had a great career but he is a liability now.

Lee Robinson
194 Posted 27/11/2023 at 16:05:30
I like Dyche as a person and do think he is the type of manager we need at the moment, but if anyone is going to be the downfall of his tenure at Everton, it is going to be him.

The lineup and set up is so predictable, I think he'd happily play that side, week in & week out, all season. There's very little adaption to the way we set up in terms of positioning or tactics, or a different plan to expose any opposition weakness.

Changes in the side are usually forced on him through injury or consistent errors, and his use of substitutions and in-game management is really starting to show him up against some of the other well-run clubs in the league.

If everything goes well, great! We have a side capable of getting a result here and there with a solid performance but I feel like the team is capable of more.

This isn't a reaction to yesterday's performance, I'm happy for Dyche to stick around and hopefully build a solid platform for a few years but, if he doesn't start to adapt soon, he will only have himself to blame if we're looking for a new manager.

Mark Taylor
195 Posted 27/11/2023 at 16:17:50
I've seen us play worse. The wonder goal well and truly popped our balloon. The bear pit never truly arrived. Either their 18-year-old is going to be a worldie or we just didn't put him under enough pressure, on or off the pitch. Strolled around like he owned the place.

On the players, McNeil is in his first half of last season form, Harrison is surprisingly (worryingly) ineffective and Garner is disappointingly not kicking on after a decent start. Our inability to take chances is well documented. But there is really precious little on the bench.

At least Young stayed on the pitch this time. He looked a nailed-on certainty for another red...

Christy Ring
196 Posted 27/11/2023 at 16:42:44
Looking back to yesterday, we definitely missed Onana's pace in the middle, but how Dyche left Young on for the 2nd half, considering he had another early yellow, just like against Liverpool, was definitely a poor decision.

The penalty finished the game, and why was Young in a central position considering he was playing right-back? Why wait to go 0-2 down before Dyche makes the substitutions?

Apart from Young being poor, Harrison, who was worse than McNeill and never got one cross in, and Doucoure, who was also poor, should have been subbed at 0-1.

I know we had few offensive players on the bench, but after watching Danjuma's embarrassing effort yesterday, I'd have Dobbin ahead of him every time now.

Bobby Mallon
197 Posted 27/11/2023 at 17:38:00

Harrison did get crosses in, our forward/s just didn't move quick enough to get on the end of some.

Lee Robinson
198 Posted 27/11/2023 at 17:49:46
In defense of our wingers they're playing to an instructed system, helping out defensively and not being helped at the other end with overlapping fullbacks, usually being doubled up on.

McNeil could have finished the game with 2 assists and a goal yesterday if it wasn't for erratic finishing and Calvert-Lewin perhaps should have played him in first rather than going for goal himself.

Christy Ring
199 Posted 27/11/2023 at 18:53:03
Harrison is better on the left wing in my opinion, he has to cut inside everytime to make a cross, we have two left footed players playing on both wings, and neither is blessed with pace, which Gray had plenty of, but Dyche wasn't a fan.
Christine Foster
200 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:03:53
Coning. To make someone believe something false.

Ashley Young was the victim of it on Sunday, the con men who feign injury or foul play is bad enough, but the United player played the man not the ball. It was not merely a case of foul play but one of deceit.
It happens in every game, the forward knocks the ball too far and veers into the defenders body to claim a foul. It's an art and the really good players have perfected it, always have..
The difference now is the referees, in days gone by the referees would say to the forward, "do that again and your off"
Now the blade of grass that brushed a big toe is enough to get a penalty AND a player sent off. It used to be a contact sport, a tussle for the ball, were a tackle was not deemed an offence but a fair challenge.
We hear a lot about simulation, but in every game you see it..players look and act as if their legs are broken, can perform dives that are awarded points in the Olympics.. yet miraculously wave the stretchers away to take the penalty and give a sly smile to team mates going back to the restart..
So what? It's the game now, we'll, it's not. It the Premier league, it's Seria A, in fact it's probably any top league in any country.. it's not going to change. It's gone..
It's still simulation. It's still cheating, it's ruined a game. The days of hard men are gone, and rightly so, protection of the skilful is paramount, but not to the loss of the competitive game.
Yet here is the glaring truth, any corner, any team, defenders grab, pull, block, hold and foul opposition players that anywhere else on the field is seem as a booking offense. Yet nothing is done by authorities, by referees, players carry on, penalties never given.. but whoa betide if an attacker holds or grapples..
Inconsistencies, poor rules, poor referees..
Ashley Young should have known this before he left 3 of his toes in the vicinity of Martials foot, and left him decrying the fact that his reflexes are a millisecond slower than the forward who saw, then engineered the foul. But that's the game, we're interpretation has given way to illusion, where touch is condemnation. It's still cheating.

Brian Wilkinson
201 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:09:27
I sound like a broken record, but until Dyche let’s his left and right backs stay out wide, instead of defending narrow, we are going to get caught over and over again.

If Young stayed in his natural position, he is not making that tackle, that gave away a penalty.

All it takes is the ball to be pinged from one side of the pitch, to the other and their wide player is in acres of space, to either attack and cut in, or ping a cross into the danger area.

On a number of occasions, Patterson has been caught in no mans land, when the ball has gone over his head and played to their wide player, it is hardly the fault of Patterson to be instructed to defend closer to his centre halves.

Time and again we are getting caught out on this tactic.

Raymond Fox
202 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:33:53
You couldnt make it up, one of the seasons wonder goals and you might know who it would be scored against.

I've said many times over recent years that if you believed in that stuff you would think we are cursed, it sure feels like it.

We made more chances than Utd but didnt find the net again, we wont be relegated because we lost to Utd though.

What will happen with the appeal is anybodys guess, mine is that they will reduce the points deduction probably by 2 or maybe 4 on a good day.

Whatever they do we wont be relegated.

Steve Dickinson
203 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:38:04
FA Cup Third Round draw. Manchester United vs Everton.

Of course it is 😂

Steve Dickinson
204 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:51:38
Sorry, wrong year! It’s been a stressful 24 hours!
Robert Tressell
205 Posted 27/11/2023 at 19:55:50
Why does Dyche pick Young over Patterson

Very hard to say.

Personally like most fans I'd like to see Patterson as first choice.

But there may be fitness issues - given Patterson has been unusually fragile since he's been here. Or maturity issues - he's 22 now but plays like a rookie still.

Whatever the case, I expect him to finish the season as our clear first choice RB.

Is it really costing us points? Probably not. Patterson is poor positionally and immature defensively. He may not have made the Martial tackle, but he may equally have just let Martial stride through and score anyway. Or some other error.

The real reason we lost yesterday is Man Utd scored so early and so spectacularly. And bad finishing on our part. It's that simple.

Tony Abrahams
206 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:05:51
I think Patterson is a very good footballer with the ball at his feet, and I don’t think we have got that many players who are as comfortable on the ball, as the young Scottish kid
Peter Moore
207 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:13:04
I think managers and former players place great stock on experience, much more so than us fans.

I watched former pros analysing our team and saying we will be okay, largely due to the experienced players we have. Young, Gana and Seamus were all mentioned as reasons for us to be optimistic. If there are better players on form and fitness available, I prefer the old pros to be in a supporting role.

Young was unlucky with the penalty I think, their player made sure he made contact by going toward that partially outstretched leg that Young was retracting. Martial threw his other leg up in the air the instant the left leg touched Young, a dive for sure. A penalty in these stupid times though. No common sense applied at all.

The interpretation of the rules of the game is a shambles really. The VAR is just embarrassingly poor in its current guise. How they can fuck it up so often and so hugely is quite something really. Shambles all over.

Jamie Crowley
208 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:16:42
Christine -

Yes, but... he stuck his leg in. Why? It was a poor challenge, he was positioned terribly, and it cost us a PK that put us down by two when we were threatening a goal.

I still maintain it was a stupid challenge and changed the complexion of the game. Your mileage may vary.

You make a fair point about this duping of officials. Drives me nuts, as it does you. But still, why? Why would this supposed veteran who's on the pitch for stability and savvy veteran knowledge stick his foot in? Shouldn't he know better at 38 years of age? It was just dumb.

Tony Abrahams
209 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:26:18
I wrote my thoughts earlier about why I didn't think it was a penalty, but with Chris Kavanagh as the VAR, it wasn't really a surprise when the ref was asked to go and look at it on the screen.

This is the same Chris Kavanagh who never told Paul Tierney to go and have a look at the Rodri handball, that thankfully ended up costing Liverpool the title.

The refereeing standards in the EPL are very inconsistent, and if it's not corruption, then it's ineptitude, so they definitely need replacing either way.

Jamie Crowley
210 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:38:13
A quick aside - that Garnacho goal actually made the highlights here in America - like everywhere. Just about all the sports stations here showed it.

They showed it despite it being an NFL Sunday.

Even us stupid Americans, most of which don't know or watch soccer, were like, "Holy crap what a goal."

Any fan of footy has to appreciate that goal. It was a thing of beauty. Stinks it happened against us, but it really was beautiful and amazing.

Bobby Mallon
211 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:39:17
I liked Dyche comments after the game. Saying he wished the ref had just listened to the VAR and gave the penalty.

All the time wasted going to the TV monitor when we know he's going to give it.

Paul Birmingham
212 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:45:57
Everton, were their own worst enemies, and Utd know how to finish, and the first goal was exceptional, the best bicycle kick in years.

The other 2 goals, were avoidable, but in between, Everton could and should have put the game out of reach by half time, but the lack of composure in the kill zone, is hurting Everton.

The penalty was a bitter blow so early into the second half.

I hope Seamus, is available for selection, this weekend.

All due respect to Ashley Young, but he was getting skinned, and so for me along with his dead balls, he should be rested. The penalty, on replay on the box, looked like so many not given, but the odd ones are, and it was always going to v Utd.

I doubt if it was at Old Trafford, they’d have even used the var of the pitchside monitor.

But I’d also say keeping the back line narrow, invites trouble, but also Onana, in midfield, for me makes a difference to the balance of the team.

He’s learning but getting better, unlikely to be available for Forest.

But Everton, have plenty of guts to beat Forest on Saturday, and will overcome, the 10 points and stay up.

But to win again at Goodison, would be nice too.


Oliver Molloy
213 Posted 27/11/2023 at 20:58:29
Watched the match back again and one thing is very clear - we need to take our chances or else .

Regards the debate with the penalty, I say this – if that had been the other way about, we would all be going off our heads if we had not got a penalty. Mind you, still a long way to go, probably could happen yet with the corrupt Premier League!

Young ain't no good at full-back, Young just ain't no good anywhere.

Premier League fixtures to end of the year:

Forest (A), Newcastle (H) (and the return of Gordon), Chelsea (H), Burnley (A), Spurs (A), Man City (H), Wolves (A).

I really haven't a clue what we might get out of these!

Soren Moyer
214 Posted 27/11/2023 at 21:03:50
Happy for Man Utd for scoring 3 goals in a game for the first time this season.
Robert Tressell
215 Posted 27/11/2023 at 22:06:47
Oliver, I agree. Even with the early goal we had enough chances for a deserved 2-2 or even 3-3.

Unfortunately this is because our players are not in the same league as the likes of Rashford or Garnacho.

We have a Crystal Palace / Bournemouth standard squad. We're doing well to create the chances. Credit Dyche and hard-working players for that.

Hopefully Harrison and Danjuma (and Beto) start to make a proper contribution soon.

Rob Dolby
216 Posted 27/11/2023 at 22:07:04
Another 2 perfect examples of slow motion penalties given against Wolves tonight.

The first the Wolves player got the ball but that didn't make any difference. The 2nd was a clear dive going away from goal that the ref got right but in slow motion the merest touch is enough to give a penalty. The game has gone mad with the VAR.

Jim Wilson
217 Posted 27/11/2023 at 22:14:36
John @192 – I couldn't agree more.

Their first goal, you could not write it any better for the Premier League.

Our best move so far this season is Andy Burnham on Sky News talking absolute sense!

Alec Gaston
218 Posted 27/11/2023 at 22:40:34
Oliver 213,

I think we need 9 points minimum from that run of games.

John Schrempft
219 Posted 27/11/2023 at 00:18:27
i was shouting at the TV after 10 minutes: "Replace Ashley Young!" Unfortunately, the TV didn‘t respond.

No, he probably didn‘t lose us the game but it did not help matters. The wonder goal made it even worse after only 3 minutes and increased the pressure on the players who had the 10-point deduction at the back of their Minds. Match of the Day 2 was awful and not for the first time as well.

As Winston said: "Never give in, never, never, Never!"

Paul Hewitt
220 Posted 28/11/2023 at 06:58:11
Oliver@ 213. Looking at them fixtures I'd be thinking maybe 10 points.
Alan J Thompson
221 Posted 28/11/2023 at 10:17:04
I keep reading and hearing about how much experience Young has but, for the "wonder" goal, and it was, Young had no idea where his man was and made no effort to get to the ball when the cross came in.

Who knows how Garnacho might have reacted if Young had got somewhere near between him and the cross. For his booking, he could have positioned himself to jockey for again Garnacho to either stand with the ball or push it into the corner or the byline to try to get a cross in.

Similarly for the penalty, if Young had reacted quickly enough, he could have positioned himself nearer the ball so that Martial would have had to go through him to get at the ball but instead just stood still and stuck a foot out.

Something similar happened for the own-goal off his thigh when his positioning was not the best and should have been nearer to help Harrison block the cross.

At some stage the Manager has to see that his mate is past it and give Patterson a prolonged run.

Sam Hoare
222 Posted 28/11/2023 at 13:01:17
Little stat for those who like them:

Everton have had 124 shots at home in the Premier League this season – only Liverpool (129) have had more.

Conversely, Everton have scored just 5 goals at home in the Premier League this season – the joint-fewest in the league (with Burnley).

Geoff Lambert
223 Posted 28/11/2023 at 13:14:27
Oliver #213,

5 points… maybe 6.

Martin Farrington
224 Posted 28/11/2023 at 13:20:20
Alan 221 Exactly. Well summed up.

Sam 222 Exactly. Again shows why a goalscorer is needed and not more crap midfielders.

Dear Mr Dyche

It beggars belief that you put Young at right back every game.

You clearly don't like Patterson. Godfrey too. (The latter being completely devoid of skill and confidence.)

What is there to prove, and to whom, by playing Young??? It's not like we can buy anyone, even if we had a board.

Garner played for England U20-somethings at right-back and was shit hot. Let's face it, he isn't setting no fires in midfield. Put him back there.

Also. please please please, tell the players to mark the opposite third of our box when the opponents have the ball on the other flank. Tell McNeil or Harrison to get their expensive arses back in there, bust a gut, and mark the opposition midfield, or at least challenge!!! It's like watching school kids. Mesmerized to the lure of the ball.

They know we don't set foot in that area and have scored numerous times and will continue to do so.

Dave Cashen
225 Posted 28/11/2023 at 16:40:55
I can understand the clamour for Ashley Young to be replaced by the younger more adventurous Patterson, but I'm astounded by the comments trying to blame him for the first goal.

Once Man Utd got to the by-line on our left, Young took up a textbook position for a right-back. The cross actually wasn't that great. It was behind Garnacho and swinging out of our box. Unfortunately, the execution was staggering. If the kid tries that another thousand times he will not connect so perfectly.

Sometimes you have to hold your hands up. Garnacho bought a ticket and hit the jackpot. It was one of the most brilliant, acrobatic strikes most of us would have seen.

The full-back who could or would have prevented that goal hasn't been born yet.

James Hughes
226 Posted 28/11/2023 at 17:20:01
I am not a big fan of Ashley Young but anyone trying to blame any of the defenders for the first goal is simply mad.

The ball was behind him and he had a 'let's give it a go' moment. All the pundits were saying it was the best overhead kick they have seen. I very much doubt he will ever do it again.

That said, I would rather Young was warming the bench. He adds nothing to the team play and Patterson is better going forward.

Danny O’Neill
227 Posted 28/11/2023 at 18:22:30
No dispute at that, Dave Cashen @225.

There was nothing anyone could have done about the goal. If we'd have somehow scored one like it, we'd have been talking about it for years.

It went in right in front of me and I knew it was was soon as it left his foot. At the time, the stewards weren't being too strict so I was stood on the stairs near the middle. As soon as he hit it, I said "Goal."

And with my Everton glasses off, what a goal it was.

Brian Wilkinson
228 Posted 28/11/2023 at 19:49:13
I thought Pele's overhead kick in Escape to Victory was better executed, to even get off the floor with those steel cap boots on is a feat in itself, but to do it with busted ribs as well… take a bow, Pele.

Well, that's what I reckon the pundits would have said had it been an Everton player pulling off a spectacular goal like that.

Dave Abrahams
229 Posted 28/11/2023 at 19:58:23
Brian (228),

I think Pele was a bit of a Dickhead, how did he get captured in South America and taken to Germany?

Dennis Stevens
230 Posted 28/11/2023 at 20:08:05
Dave, you forget that Pele's character in the film was from Trinidad – much nearer to Germany!

The real mystery relates to Ardiles - where is he meant to be from? Maybe we'd have found out he was spying for the Germans if they'd ever made a sequel.

Alan J Thompson
231 Posted 29/11/2023 at 02:59:21
I would suggest that those doubting Young could not have done any better look at it again, although I haven't, and watch Young turn and look at him and then Garnacho move toward the back of the box before the cross was made.

And if Garnacho was not Young's responsibility, then who do you suggest should have made life difficult for him, or are you suggesting that our defending should only be zonal?

Kev Wood
232 Posted 29/11/2023 at 13:23:58
Garnacho scored a great goal that will stay in the memory for a long time. Unfortunately, it will be accompanied in my minds-eye by the thumbs-down gestures that he made towards the Family Enclosure.

Spiteful and immature, even if he was getting abuse from the fans in that corner. I'll respond in kind and hope he never scores again (unless, of course, we sign him one day).

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